"I don't understand it, but I know my god does."

[disalitervisum]

(quote from pastor whose daughter was a victim of the Texas shooting)

Still fighting the Crusades after all these centuries, and people ask me why I think things are so messed up.

Nothing will ever change until religion is abolished.

[Xipe Totec]

1. Religion is just a symptom. The disease is faulty brain wiring. nt

[BigmanPigman]

2. Brain wiring or brain washing?

[Xipe Totec]

3. Brain wiring. Zealots will latch on to anything.

[moda253]

59. Chicken or the egg.

[Xipe Totec]

71. Q.E.D. nt

[Grammy23]

4. Yep, I heard this man make this statement this afternoon. I cant imagine the kind of grief

He and his wife are experiencing. It is beyond comprehension. But he did manage to say the standard thing when incidents like the Texas shooting happen. It just blows my mind the brainwashing it takes to say that and truly believe it. The members of his church and churches like his everywhere across America are told to just suck it up and accept it. Don’t dare question it because HE knows the plan. And while we don’t understand it, we just have to trust HIM.

I grew up being taught that but one day I just couldn't make sense of it any more. It had no logic and was way too complicated. I never did get what someone dying on a cross had to do with absolving me of my “sins”. I had too many questions that no one could answer.

So these poor people will have to stuff whatever questions they have because HE has the plan and we don’t get to question it.

[MichMary]

37. I'm sure they have plenty of questions,

but they also have the firm belief that they will see their daughter again.

I don't think any of us who haven't walked in their shoes have any right to question how they handle their grief.

[Marie Marie]

5. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me but

whatever brings them comfort. If their faith does it for them, then I will not question it. Whatever gets them through their loss...

[world wide wally]

9. I'm just wondering if trashing the Second Amendment by not letting mentally deranged people buy guns

would be of any comfort at the funeral.

[MichMary]

35. Under the law,

he was not supposed to own a gun because of his previous conviction and discharge from the Air Force. The Air Force didn't follow the law. And he lied on the form

So--what further laws would have prevented this?

[world wide wally]

42. Prosecution is sellers for selling semiautomatic weapons?

Prosecution of the Air Force for not reporting him?
Change the fucking law?

I know, it's only like 80 people in two shootings. A very small price to pay for "freedom"

[MichMary]

43. Is it illegal to sell

semiautomatics? (Serious question; I don't know.) If so, okay. Prosecute them.

If someone in the AF intentionally didn't report him, then, yes, prosecute. But, if it was just a mistake, I don't believe you can.

What laws should be changed?

[world wide wally]

46. No, it's not "illegal"... It's encouraged

Maybe the one about not selling to the mentally ill is a good start. Maybe the one against bump starts woul be a good follow up. Maybe, just maybe we could aggressively prosecute illegal sales of guns. Maybe "thorough" background checks would help. Of course, I guess these would be an "inconvenience" to gun owners and the NRA's cash flow so they are an infringement on the Constitution (which we infringe on thousand times a day not to mention the twisted interpretation of the 2 A).
I guess there is NOTHING we can do except keep burying our children.

[pangaia]

55. How many mass shootings are there in South Korea?

Plus they have such great food.. Hummm......Maybe that's the reason..

[MichMary]

60. I don't know

Also don't know why it's relevant.

[Angry Dragon]

6. Leave the man alone, he is not forcing his religion onto you

Perhaps that is his only way to deal with his grief
Religion is only bad when it is forced on others

[Skittles]

14. it sucks even when they're not thumping

but yeah, the thumping is the worst

[Angry Dragon]

16. You are wrong

I have spent 50 years looking at organized religion, trying to understand it.
What difference does to matter to anyone how someone else tries to get through life??
Some one goes to church to try to bring sense to their world, and comes out better for having done that.
They do not push their beliefs on anyone.
They go through life believing what they believe.
It sounds as if you believe they are wasting their time.
Perhaps they feel the same way about the things you do to get through life.
Some people read books, some golf, some sit in the park and watch the world walk by.
The world would be a better place if we all just let people live their lives as they wish, as long as they do not push their beliefs unto others.
We all are searching for our happy place..............

[Skittles]

17. ask an LGBT person who grew up in a "religious" atmosphere

ask them if such beliefs were not PUSHED on them, overtly or OTHERWISE

[Angry Dragon]

18. I don't have to because for the most part that is true..........

There are churches that are welcoming
Perhaps it is time to break up the churches that are too big to fail

[HAB911]

22. I wish organized religion followed what you have posted

they don't, they never will, because they are supremacists

[hatrack]

34. When they organize, and speak "in God's name" of upending the Constitution . . .

When they work to deny basic legal rights to LGBT citizens, who can no more choose their sexual identity than choose the color of their eyes;

When they work to deny rights to women to control their own reproductive choices, including access to abortion;

When they work to destroy scientific curricula in public schools because science conflicts on multiple fundamental levels with their myths;

And when, addition to that, they seek to remove funding from public schools and divert it to their own private religious institutions, so that public education itself, not just science education, can be destroyed;

When they seek to elect the likes of Roy Moore, who has stated unequivocally that he will not follow the Constitution as US Senator, because his inerrant religious insights are more important than secular law;

When they bilk the public for millions in tax revenues to support scam-tastic tourist traps like Ark Encounter, and then try and switch contract terms to avoid even minimal tax liability;

And when they brainwash tens of millions of Americans into believing that the world not only is ending, but must end (preferably with lots of nuclear weapons) so that Pro Wrestling Jesus can come out of the sky and make all the right people eternally happy;

I'd say they're pushing their beliefs on pretty much everybody.

Maybe you don't have a problem with that. I sure as shit do.

[procon]

63. Yes, they are pushing their fundamentalist gobbledygook onto other people.

No one gets a free pass to proselytize a creed that promotes lurid apathy and indifference to tragedy. Every time some religious extremist -- and, yes, if he is content that his child was just violently murdered, he is an extremist! -- makes some idiot statement like that in public, he is spreading that self destructive gibberish to other impressionable folks and the simple minded whose reality is unhinged from the world.

It matters when a person of some respected standing spreads a macabre death cult dogma that inspires (and excuses) others to embrace his ghoulish aberrations and callous insensitivity. What manner of 'belief' says it's OK for a parent to be a cold blooded psycho who is willing to see his own child sacrificed to his perverted notion of some twisted belief in a divine martyrdom?

[A HERETIC I AM]

74. Can you buy alcohol 24/7 where you live?

There are so few places in this country the answer to the above is "yes" that they can be counted on one hand.

"They do not push their beliefs on anyone. "

So-called "Blue Laws" restricting the sale of beer, wine and spirits are MOST DEFINITELY one example of Christianity pushing its beliefs on others. Particularly restrictions on Sunday sales.

[Angry Dragon]

75. Perhaps I did not explain myself very well

Organized religion as a whole is a drain on the world and this country
I was talking about ONE man
How he gets through his grief is not for us to decide
I do not think a little church in the middle of almost nowhere is telling me how to live my life
This thread is not about organized religion, it is about one man and his grief

Just this year Minnesota passed Sunday sales of liquor 11-6
Still can not buy cars on Sunday

I have studied religion for 50 years, mostly the main ones in this country.
And they do push their beliefs on others believing they have found the true path to salvation
but the Religion Group is the place to discuss this

This man is in pain and it is not for me to decide how he gets through that pain
If he comes knocking on my door and wants to talk religion I will listen and debate him
if he tries to tell me how I should think and believe then I will demand proof

[A HERETIC I AM]

82. Fair enough

I apologize for any misunderstanding

[Angry Dragon]

83. No problem and apology accepted

[Docreed2003]

30. This!

Mocking someone’s religious choices is just freaking sick. I cannot imagine living through the type of nightmare this man and his family are going through. If his personal religion provides some sense of comfort at this time, that’s not my place to judge or question. That’s his personal belief system, even if I don’t ascribe to the same beliefs. Too many here are quick to mock and disparage religion in any form.

[jberryhill]

33. I gather youve never been the subject of their hate

When they leave my family alone, then I will leave them alone.

These people feel perfectly entitled to go after others.

They don’t get a pass because their imaginary sky friend tells them to.

[Docreed2003]

44. And I gather youre making extreme assumptions about me...

I grew up in their cesspool in the Southern Baptist Church. I know EXACTLY the type of hate they are capable of and have experienced their hate in extremely intimate ways. My overall disgust at their beliefs does not prevent me from having compassion and empathy.

I don’t need to ascribe to their beliefs of a “sky friend” to have empathy.

[cally]

73. Completely Agree!!

The pastor suffered a horrible tragedy and folks on this thread are disparaging how he is coping. It is wrong to belittle others that are not forcing their beliefs on you.

I get that many here have suffered from some fundamentalist dogma. I was fortunate to grow up in a very liberal christian church that welcomes everyone and preaches love. Many churches are like this but they don't get the headlines.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

79. I agree. If that belief gives him comfort I'm not going to fuss about it.

Religion is comforting and sustaining to many people. I'm all in favor of whatever helps people get through life, as weird as it might seem to me, as long as it's kept out of my government.

[defacto7]

7. You can't abolish something that has no definition.

But I hear you.

Religion is in its death throws already. It's just going through a few convultions on the way.

As for this pastor, his grief allows him room to delude all he wants if it helps him cope. It's unfortunate that he has a platform and the world has to hear it. It should be his private grief and not become christaganda. That's how his pain will translate.

[Binkie The Clown]

8. Religion can never be abolished.

It must be outgrown. To abolish it, you are depriving people of something they want and still think they need. They will resist and defy attempts to take it away from them.

Instead, educate them, not by telling them how ridiculous religion is, but by teaching them how reasonable and satisfying the alternatives are. Don't push, lead. Help them discover for themselves that they don't need religion, and allow them to decide, of their own accord, to leave it behind.

[SoCalMusicLover]

10. Almost Sounds Like You're Talking About Guns nt

[mfcorey1]

11. If people did not have an infinite being, whether you believe or not,

to whom they pray in their times of adversity, you would have more massive shootings than we have now. So, let the gentleman have his religion/spirituality. Many of us were raised with the same beliefs.

[cwydro]

15. I hear you. The sneering superiority of so many here

in the face of this tragedy has astounded me.

I have no religious faith, nor was I brought up in one, but I would never scoff at those who believe.

[handmade34]

19. the problem...

if one doesn't understand and does not even try to because "God understands" or "God has a plan" or "give it to God" then that person will not be inclined to act... unfortunately many of the people we need to make our laws (in DC and statewide) wait for God or "look to God" and then it is a very serious problem...

I grew up with a mother that had "religious faith" and I know with certainty that our life could have been so much better had she not... if only she understood that she had choices... I don't "scoff at those who believe" until it affects those around them and unfortunately it most often does, even if indirectly

[Voltaire2]

20. because as we know the less religious a society is the more violent it is.

when actually the opposite is true.

[hatrack]

23. Which explains why mass shootings in places like the UK, Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, Canada, Holland

. . . all notable for generally low levels of religious belief and practice, are so commonplace.

You're wrong.

[Kablooie]

12. It's easy to understand. God doesn't care about you or anyone else.

God has the same feelings toward humanity as Oliver Twist or the Cat in the Hat or Darth Vader, or Cinderellas step sisters.

It's a fictional construct that fits into a particular narrative but lives only in human imagination.

[Hekate]

13. Well, my Goddess says human beings have free will and brains, and that there are consequences...

...for the decisions we make, both as individuals and as a society.

In other words, their god is not the only deity, and I find their interpretation lacks a lot.

However, I've read the Bible, in more than one translation. The Old Testament makes it clear that humans have been given free will. The New Testament has quite a lot in it about loving your neighbor as yourself, taking care of the vulnerable, forgiving others as you hope to be forgiven yourself. Jesus goes on and on in that vein. I like that, and find that philosophy very admirable. Whenevef I find a Christian living by those precepts, it makes me glad to know them.

Moving on, though -- you can try to "abolish religion," but that implies a totalitarian regime that only increases human suffering and denies people freedom of thought. In the 20th century both the Soviet Union and Communist China outlawed religion, and the results were disastrous. It was just one more form of oppression.

This is America. The Constitution gives us many freedoms, including freedom of thought and worship. As Thomas Jefferson wrote (paraphrasing here) "How does it harm me if my neighbor believes in 20 gods -- or no god at all?"

[yallerdawg]

28. "Seek first to understand..."

Now THIS comment reminds me why I want to hang out with Democrats!

[HAB911]

21. Amen

I'm sure he consoles himself the the knowledge she died doing what she loved

[Lars39]

24. Gah.

He’s basically saying this will be acceptable to him because it was God’s will. Toxic thinking.

[MichMary]

32. The stages of grief

They always end up in the same place--acceptance. I imagine he has, or will, experience all of the stages, including anger, denial, depression. Maybe his reaction is part of the bargaining stage, in some way. If relying on his faith get him to acceptance sooner than someone else, maybe that's better than spending years being bitter.

[Lars39]

36. But in his case acceptance probably means preaching about

how his daughter being killed was God's will and then doing absolutely nothing to ensure that another father wouldn't lose his daughter by gun violence. Learned helplessness.

[MichMary]

39. Well, we have no idea

what he preaches. But, what could he preach that would "ensure that another father wouldn't lose his daughter by gun violence?" It's a church, which isn't supposed to endorse candidates, or take political positions.

[Lars39]

41. He could do a lot within those confines.

[Nonhlanhla]

25. I'm not going to sneer at a grieving father. nt.

[Orrex]

38. This

[VermontKevin]

56. Right? Give the guy some space and some empathy.

[Orrex]

61. I have posted many times about this

As an atheist, I do not appreciate expressions of religious sentiment intended to support me in times of hardship.

As a human being, I also do not capitalize on others' hardship in to proselytize my worldview nor to kick a believer when he's down.

[VermontKevin]

72. Same. I don't begrudge that poor man whatever comfort he finds.

[G_j]

45. This

[Hekate]

68. Nor am I. People grieve and hurt just as hard when loved ones die for stupid reasons...

...such as the country numbly accepting gun violence, as they do for any other reason. They grope for understanding and acceptance, and they use the vocabulary they have.

[samnsara]

26. well at least his faith may offer him some comfort..

...not much, but as an atheist, I sometimes envy the total unwavering belief they will see their loved ones again.

[dawg]

27. This thread, mocking a grieving father, is beyond disgusting.

Not to mention the call for abolishing religious freedom. Are we all supposed to be Stalinists now?

[Hekate]

69. The OP stirred up some crap, then absented himself. I won't forget that.

In my first reply I referenced the 20th century attempts of the USSR and Communist China to "abolish religion," and you are right: it's Stalinist and worse.

[get the red out]

29. What about someone else's God?

Or maybe that God over in the corner.

His God understands, because he said so. His God loves guns more than he loved the "Pastor's" daughter, apparently.

[MichMary]

31. I wasn't going to bother with this thread

but I have to ask this. This clown wasn't supposed to have a gun, but the Air Force didn't follow the law in his case. So, what would have prevented this shooting? And, what does God have to do with it?

[get the red out]

50. Not much

We are supposed to take measures to prevent terrorism inspired by ISIS, which is appropriate, but trust the jumbled mess of our gun laws and their enforcement to God. God has nothing to do with it, $$$$$ does. The poor victims are given what people think will get them through until the outrage dies down again. Horrible.

[liquid diamond]

40. Funny how some posters here

complain about the right's bigotry against women, minorities and gays, but then turn around and engage in bigotry against religion.

[billh58]

49. Could it be that

"women, minorities and gays" are actual living beings and not a figment of someone's imagination? There is a huge difference between personal spirituality and organized religion imposed through war and intimidation for profit and power.

[MichMary]

54. The adherents to religion

are also actual living beings. They are not imaginary, and a father's statement of what brings comfort to him, should not be mocked. He is one of the victims in this case, but you would think the actual victims are those who are somehow forced to listen to his statement.

[billh58]

62. Freedom of religion

also includes freedom from religion. I don't believe that anyone is "mocking" the father, and no one is forced to listen to anything. The victims of gun violence in this country are the concern of all rational people and there is no excuse for allowing the carnage to continue.

[kwassa]

65. I think this thread is full of mockery.

Top to bottom.

Read it.

[billh58]

66. I have read it

and "mockery" like many things, is all about perception and intent. I am not mocking the man, but I feel free to mock organized religion when it says things like the shooting was "God's will." The shooting and resulting deaths were the direct result of the right-wing gun lobby's strangle hold on the Congress of the United States, and for no other reason.

I respect the rights of those who find comfort in religion. I do NOT respect the religions which ignore the responsibilities of people to help themselves and which ascribe tragedies to uncontrollable supernatural causes.

[liquid diamond]

67. Religion isnt being imposed on anybody in this case.

Some posters are so sensitive that the mere mention of God or Christ makes them combative and condescending.

All this father is doing is using his faith to cope with a tragedy, but he can’t even do that without being mocked by bigots.

[billh58]

70. I did not say that this man's

religion is being imposed on anyone. What I actually said is that "organized religion" is routinely imposed on segments of the world population for profit and power. See the Crusades for one example, and Pat Robertson for another.

This father is entitled to be left in peace to deal with his grief in any spiritual way he needs and wants.

[Act_of_Reparation]

76. Yeah, it must suck being religious.

Being in the majority, occupying pretty much every position of power in the federal government. Sounds like a drag.

[liquid diamond]

78. Thats no excuse for mockery and bigotry.

We don’t have to share our beliefs, but we should respect each other.

[Act_of_Reparation]

80. Tell you what.

You go tell your people to stop violating our first amendment rights and I'll tell to my people to stop hurting your feelings. Deal?

[liquid diamond]

86. Nice try, but Im an atheist.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

[bluestarone]

47. God is not the problem here. it's

Mans (womens) perception of whom there God is! Everyone has different thoughts and that's ok as long as THEY DON'T PUSH IT UNTO OTHERS (THAT'S WHERE THE PROBLEM BEGINS) A lot of right wing fanatics believe it's ok to kill in the name of the Lord, which brings us where we are at today! (THOSE ARE THE ONES I HATE)

[Wounded Bear]

48. Man created God in his own image...

and endowed him with all the personality traits and self-control of a 10 year old brat.

[JDC]

51. Explaining away injustice and tragedy as "God's Will" is gross and cowardly

[RKP5637]

52. Religion! Delusional mindsets to explain the unknown. Millions, billions? have been

F'ed up by religion over eons. Religion has always been to me, like WTF!

[Corvo Bianco]

53. Disgusting.

If a belief system tells you you're just as good dead as alive, wake up.

[VermontKevin]

57. The thread is in poor taste.

[Bucky]

58. Hurricane hits city: "God hates liquor stores & liberals" Loon shoots up church: "Divine Mystery"

I'm a regular church-goer and I just cringe when people do this. My faith will sustain me through a tragedy and give me the will to go on and help others. I don't pretend God keeps crazies off the streets when we're not willing to pass laws to protect ourselves from them.

[hamsterjill]

64. Well, I understand it.

In general - A crazy person felt snubbed by his wife because she dared divorce him. This person had a long history of being physically abusive. He walked into an Academy Sporting Good Store, bought a gun without being precluded from doing that, and decided to take his abuse out by killing 26 people and wounding 20 more.

The problem here is that a person unfit to buy a gun was allowed to buy a gun. And I promise you that MY God understands that part of the equation.

[guillaumeb]

77. I understand that you have convinced yourself of something.

Perhaps a law abolishing religion? Stalin and Mao both attempted that.

[B2G]

81. Tolerence.

It's a good thing. It's supposed to be what we espouse.

Not tolerance only for those we agree with. Not excusing our intolerance because 'some of them' aren't tolerant.

It's supposed to be what what sets us apart from them. If we broad brush and judge, how are we any different from them?

[Alea]

84. Oh look, another religion hate thread

Lots of hate in forum lately.

You realize many Democrats go to church. But hey, lets drive them out of the party. Lets drive out the gun owners too. Maybe we will be successful at never winning an election again after driving off two thirds of the party.

[B2G]

85. Yep. Get ready to lose the AA vote. nt