A day in the life of the self made man.

[Cerridwen]

He arises at 4:00am. He knows it's 4:00am because he can read the stars and their place in heavens above him on his plot of land, on which he lives with no deed/patent from the evil government and which he found as he was crawling on fours; merely an infant. He learned how to read the stars and the time through his observations during his toddler years. The scientific method was his preferred mode of learning. Though, as yet, he knew not that it had a name.

His toddler years.

Quite dismal by our standards as he was reduced to eating anything his chubby little fingers could place into his mouth as he was crawling on all fours. The self made man has no parent having sprung from the head of Zeus or some such; fully formed as an infant but fully capable, unlike other lesser mammals, of living without nourishment until such time as he could learn which leaves and berries were safe to eat.

But he did it, this self made infant, without the help or nurturing of any parent; naked and alone in the wild; avoided by any wildlife who, under normal circumstances, might perceive him as prey or lunch or snack. Fortunately for the self made man, the predators recognized his unique position as the self made infant and left him to live and to fend for himself. No wolf boy, our self made man, as the wolves knew they were not worthy of such a task as raising the self made infant to boyhood.

Upon arising, our self made man, dons the clothes of his own making. He planted the seed, harvested the crop, spun the fiber, wove the fiber, and sewed his own clothing which he intuited he should have; all with his own chubby fingers, then with his more dexterous fingers as he grew into the self made child.

He just knew how to plant and to grow and to water and to fertilize (okay, maybe that was an accident when he still hadn't knowledge of the outhouse) the seed which he had just known he needed to grow the crop to create his own clothes which he just knew he needed in order to be successful in the world in which he's never traversed.

As he dons his self made clothes, cleaned with his self made soap, he thinks of his goals for the day.

He puts the water from his self made well, on his self made stove to heat up for his self grown coffee crop. Fortunately, oh wait, no, Fortune has nothing to do with our self made man. Our self made infant knew to find a place in which he could grow the beans for coffee and find clean and safe water for drinking and making coffee and bathing. He intuited the bathing part as he noticed the not-self made animals held their nose at his stink. But, I digress.

He puts the water on the stove to heat using his self cut wood which he knew to chop since he is self made infant/child/man and waits for the water to boil so he can make his self made coffee.

With his coffee he has his self made cereal; harvested from his self made farm while reading the Wall Street Journal so he can see how his self made stocks are doing.

Wait? Wut? Of course he taught himself to read and to understand "The Market". He's a self made man.

Not a whit of education or help from parent or human, much less government, our self made man has taught himself, with no books, or tutors, or teachers, how to read, how to do sums, how to track ROI, and how to run a business, with no input, from any human or animal, at any stage of his self made development.

He grows his own clothes, grows his own food, cleans his own self made self, manufactures his own tools, learns his own lessons, knowns for his own self made self the markers of success, and treats his own wounds and illness.

No one gave him anything. He did it all on his own.

He is a wonder.

He is a super man.

He is...The Self Made Man.

[aaaaaa5a]

1. Outstanding! nt

[Cerridwen]

2. Thank you. :) n/t

[mia]

3. Given that...

anyone who chooses to create a means to secure extra income should share the wealth with those who choose to do nothing but collect government benefits?

[Cerridwen]

4. "choose to do nothing but collect government benefits"

That would be a right wing talking point from the reagan era. I know, because I lived through that era. The phrase you are looking for but don't have the...huevos to say is, "welfare queen".

To the jury who is about to be called on this post, yes, it is a right wing talking point and yes I remember how the various dog whistles were framed.

[mia]

9. Bring it on, Cerridwen.

Because I'm getting tired of working long hours to have to share my extra income with anyone but my family.

[Cerridwen]

10. Nope.

Stew in the juices of the "business model" all by yourself as you blame everyone but the "business model" crowd.

Welcome to the real world in which those above you caused the problem and you blame those "below" you.

[mia]

12. You're the one casting blame.

You also do a great job with talking points. You've got quotation marks down pat.

[Cerridwen]

13. Stating facts is "casting blame"?

I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves.

We'll use wikiquote (yeah, I know) for this quote

Quit targeting your hatred downward. Look up. That "trickle down" ain't what you think.

And...I'm done with you. I'll let others, whom you've ignored, deal with your...view of the world.

[mia]

14. okay

By the way, your original post releases us all from making any effort at all to improve the human condition.

[kestrel91316]

73. I'll excuse this. You're obviously drunk.

[lapislzi]

96. I'm going to say it straight up.

And I'm sure I'll be alerted.

What the hell are you doing on a progressive message board? Your responses indicate a world view that is anything but.

Hard to believe that you managed to make it to a couple thousand posts.

[2ndAmForComputers]

117. Your post is correct on all counts.

[lapislzi]

147. Fine, then.

I'm still here.

I defy any person on DU to suggest that I have ever been anything except civil and polite in any exchange. But, I call shit like I see it. And, to mix me metaphors up a bit, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

[Chorophyll]

103. I think you have that utterly, completely backwards.

Can't imagine what you're doing here.

[freshwest]

31. I always tell people to look inside, up and around. Media and RW talk tell us to admire the UP,

Ignore our own contributions and denigrate those around us and those we erroneously think are below us. Good OP.

[kestrel91316]

71. Guess you're tired of getting water from the tap that won't poison you,

compliments of the scumsuckers and freeloaders down at the water treatment plant, right?

Or perhaps you're tired of driving on roads properly engineered and constructed so you can speed about, no doubt in the giant SUV you're so proud of?

Perhaps you long for the good old days when the greedy thieves at USDA didn't exist and your precious family was free to contract TB from their morning glass of milk?

If you don't like taxes and the society and civilization they support, you have a DUTY to go where there isn't any such nonsense. Somalia or Haiti comes to mind.

Ta ta.........

[Doctor_J]

82. Like most Limbeciles, you've got it backward

Your problem is not the poor taking some subsistence from the pittance you pay in taxes. Your problem is that your employer doesn't pay you enough for your hard work to feed your family.

Also, the taxes of others pay for the roads you use to get to your slave-like job, the clean water that comes from your tap, the schools you attended (though you seem to have gotten little from them), the FDA that makes sure the medicine you take for your paranoid delusions is safe, and so on. You get back way more than you pay

Finally, believing what you hear on Hate Radio and Fox "News" is a mental illness. If your job affords you health insurance, you should take advantage of it and try to re-initiate contact with reality.

[DonCoquixote]

109. then you should hate

The insurance companies that jack their prices up to make YOU pay more for your family.
The bankers whose gambling makes you pay more in interest rates and fees just to keep your money,
The private education companies trying to starve public education so that you will pay just to have your children mis-educated and dumber than the Asians and Europeans they will wind up working for.
The silver spoon kids who never worked a day of their life without mommy and daddy ready to save them, like Mitt.

But no, you blame the fact you work long hours and have less money on the people who are no more powerful, or even less powerful, than you, not the one percent who gets 4 out of every ten dollars from the get go.

And do remember who made the 40 hour wekk possible. Thanks to people who dislike unions, that may be a thing of the past.

And for all this loyalty, you will end up like the Indian workers who took many jobs, the same bastards that got outsourced to CHINA.

Go...away, stay out of the way, or get mowed down and paved over like the people you defend.

[nicky187]

110. I guess it's way too late to say...

"Don't feed the trolls"?

[2ndAmForComputers]

118. May I ask you a question?

Why do you vote Democratic and not Republican?

[Enrique]

124. Grover, is that you? n/t

[frylock]

143. then get the fuck out of our society

[GeorgeGist]

152. Well the profits you pay ...

ain't going to your family.

[dkf]

5. And exactly what are we entitled to since none of us produced much of what we own directly?

What rightfully belongs to us?

[mia]

15. What belongs to me is anything that I have done through working.

I'm not wealthy, but sacrifice luxuries and time to earn extra income.

[treestar]

53. So no inheritances?

Or other income from not working?

You'd better hope there is always someone ready to purchase your labor, too. You will lower your prices to whatever a Chinese worker would take if necessary, correct?

[JDPriestly]

62. You earn what those who are wealthier than you choose to pay you.

The point in the OP with which I agree entirely, is that man can only survive in a society. And to insure the success of our society and of our own lives, we have to help each other out.

I've seen what happens to children who are neglected by their parents. Truly neglected. They suffer mental disabilities, very severe ones.

No man is an island. Each of us must reach out and help those around us.

One of the means through which we help each other is our government.

No matter how talented or healthy or rich we think we are, a day can come when we have to rely on others for help with even the most essential tasks and with satisfying our most basic needs. If you haven't lived that day yet, you are very fortunate. But I assure you, one day, you will be the one who depends on others. It's just a matter of time. And no amount of money will pay for the help you need. You will rely on the kindness of others. Happens to just about everyone sooner or later -- at least, those of us who live long enough.

[lapislzi]

97. Aren't you virtuous.

And nobody's helped you on your rocky road to mediocre success? No teachers, no mentors, no helpers of any kind?

I think that's where the OP is going, although you seem determined to throw up your own straw men to derail the discussion.

[arcane1]

6. Huh?

Where on earth did you get that?

[mia]

16. I'm tired.

I know people who are scamming the system. I have to work an extra job to cover their expenses.

[treestar]

49. Oh Bullshit

It's enough to make me wish unemployment upon you. You think that is always the fault of the unemployed person?

[kestrel91316]

74. Yeah. Let the poor starve.

There ARE NO JOBS, even if they had no choice but to work or starve. I know people with college degrees and/or decades of experience int heir fields who would have starved a year ago if they hadn't been able to collect unemployment (paid for by INSURANCE premiums paid by their employers).

But you've got yours, so to hell with everybody else.

[xmas74]

92. Yes, there are scammers.

And yes, I know a couple of them. But there are many more who are not scammers, who want to work, who want a better life and are willing to do what it takes. All it takes for many is one event-an illness, a lay-off, closing of a plant, divorce, etc.

The "scammers" are often loud and proud, that's why they are noticed. But I'd rather deal with a few scammers knowing that the everyone else is covered when they need the help.

[JoePhilly]

102. YUP ... those hiding their money in off-shore accounts.

Those who think the Iraq war was free.

Those who think oil companies need subsidies.

[Chorophyll]

105. Wow. The ultra-rich are the biggest scammers of all.

They're the ones who run the show, who brought down the world's economy, and who get off scott-free. You're working an extra job because of THEM.

Despite your avatar, I don't know what planet you're on.

[uppityperson]

121. I know 1 person scamming the system and whole lot more who aren't. You want to sacrifice all for

that one who is scamming? Shame on you.

[arbusto_baboso]

123. I'm a welfare case worker, and you couldn't be more wrong.

And you have been WOEFULLY MISINFORMED. We catch all the scammers, eventually. The lucky ones we catch early. The unlucky ones get away with it for awhile and rack up the dollars, meaning they go to jail when we DO catch them.

There are no new original welfare scams. We've seen 'em all.

And they are no more than about 2% to 5% of the caseload AT ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM.

They certainly don't take more from you than the scamsters at the TOP do.

[TalkingDog]

11. Introduce me to this creature of hearsay.

Every person I knew who "collected" (trust me there was no "collecting", there was barely enough to get by) government benefits would have rather had a job or been in circumstances where assistance was not necessary.

And introduce me to someone who "creates" a means to secure "extra income" without any assistance from anybody else.

Because I'm about as close as you come to that description. I create things. But I sure as hell don't make the raw materials, I don't transport them from point of origin. And I utilize this "Interweb" we're all sharing to do many, many things related to the promotion and marketing of my product. I didn't make it either.

You are either unclear on the concept or engaging in a bit of trollery.

[mia]

17. Could be unclear on the concept of work.

I just know that too much of it makes me resentful of those who don't even try.

[treestar]

50. It's not that they don't try

You're trying to protect yourself from the idea it could ever happen to you. You are paying into a system that is there for you if it does.

You are not superior to everyone who finds themselves on hard times. I know it's hard to acknowledge that. But we don't feel confident that you'll never need help.

[uppityperson]

122. What percentage do you think that "don't even try"?

[Ruby the Liberal]

19. "I got mine, yer on yer own"?

What a lovely sentiment.

[mia]

21. I prefer

teaching a man to fish.

[Ruby the Liberal]

22. And apparently how to make his own pole, too.

[mia]

25. Great idea.

He could srart a business doing that.

[DevonRex]

135. Apparently poverty is cured by fish. Who knew?

Lord help you if there isn't a nearby lake or river. Or if it's polluted to high heaven.

Unless, of course, people just spout that BS without truly thinking about what it might mean in the US in 2012.

[Ruby the Liberal]

141. What can I say, DevonRex. You have no pole and you have no fish,

then you better just pick yourself up by your bootstraps and start walking down that the dirt road you just created in order to find another way of being self sufficient.

[Yavin4]

126. Maybe If You Worked Less, That Would Create A Job for the Unemployed

Maybe you are the problem.

[DevonRex]

134. Got a modern equivalent of that?

And teaching requires some effort on your part, you know. Who have you picked out to teach and what are you teaching them to do to earn a living?

We are all ears.

[Hippo_Tron]

20. Yes they should

Given that most of them don't choose it and welfare is largely going to benefit children, we should share wealth with them. The fact that a few dollars comes out of your taxes to finance a couple of people who game the system is a negative side effect. On balance, helping people who actually need it morally justifies the negative side effect of allowing a few freeloaders to game the system.

If you really want to save some of your hard earned money, why don't you direct your focus on how much we spend on wars and locking up people for smoking pot. The money we could save there would dwarf anything we could save by kicking a few freeloaders off of welfare.

[mia]

24. I believe that there are more than a few who game the system.

Given my own experience, the only people I know who claim government money are on disability and are pathological liars. They don't want to work. They have satellite TV's and Iphones, which I can't afford, and they don't even pay their condo fees. They are in foreclosure and live here for years and I have to come up a portion of their share of everything including the new roof. I pass them on the way to my second job as they walk their dogs.

As far as the children go, it goes without saying that they aren't to blame. Benefits should go directly to and for them without any incentive for others to scam a profit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. I'll be sure and share your thoughts with my sister who is disabled

And my friend who is confined to a wheelchair. And my other friend who used to be able to walk until a back injury forced her to use a cane and a walker.

None of them can work and not because they don't want to or because they enjoy being at home all day with nothing to do but watch TV and worry about how they will pay for their medicine if they want to eat this week.

All are dependent on disability and Medicaid, paid for by our tax dollars.

[mia]

29. I don't know anyone with real disabilities who collect this money.

I hope that your friends get everything they need. That's what our tax dollars are for.

[SunsetDreams]

30. "I pass them on the way to my second job as they walk their dogs."

If you are just passing them, then how the heck do you know so much about them? Seriously? Were they carrying a big copy of their disability check, as you passed them on the street? Pathological liars? are you serious?

As you passed them on the street were they also carrying their satellite TV's and I-Phones?

I suppose they were also holding up a sign that said they don't pay their condo fees too? How do you know that someone you pass on the street is in foreclosure or how long they've lived there if you are just passing them on the street?

I'm calling BS on your entire generalization and unfair characterization of people on disability. I can't believe I'm reading this shit here.

[mia]

34. I'm talking about people who live in my condominium complex

and I know them. Sorry that you you have not yet recognized that there are scammers out there from all walks of life. Be careful.

[SunsetDreams]

35. Oh I see,

I guess you get to know all of them that well in between working two jobs.

[mia]

39. It's a small condo - 9 units.

We've known of one another for years. It's why we've put up with it for so long. It gets old after a while.

[SunsetDreams]

40. So when you say "They"

are you talking about one person(family) or the other 8 units? How do you know it's not a "real" disability? Do you know what their disability is? I think some people tend to think of disability as being only physical.

[PETRUS]

37. Of course

There are scammers everywhere. But the people you're complaining about are not nearly as big of a drag on everyone as the scammers at the top who have steadily rewritten policy for 30 years and given us a massive upward redistribution of wealth. Inequality is out of control. Your wages should be way higher. It's absurd that you have to work two jobs to get by. Meanwhile, we are recovering from the longest and deepest job loss of any postwar recession and applicants still outnumber jobs by around 3 to 1...

[mia]

41. Scammers at the top win the prize.

Scammers are everywhere. It's the American way. Everyone knows it and it will go on forever. Our goverment is out of control.

[ErikJ]

46. Biggest scammers by far are corporate/govt cronies like Blackwater, Haliburton and hundreds of other

Lots of unemployed are too old, not skilled or not attractive enough. I dont knw whether to laugh or cry at some of the people coming into apply for jobs here. I know they will never find work with all the competition out there for work. Thats why we need govt make work and training programs.

[mia]

72. "That's why we need govt make work and training programs."

I agree.

Biggest scammers by far, are at the top.

[rhiannon55]

99. Why are you even here at DU?

A person with your hateful attitude toward disabled people couldn't have much in common with Democrats.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. If they're in foreclosure and not paying condo fees for years, why haven't they been evicted?

And what document did you sign that requires you to come up with a portion of their share for everything when they don't pay?

[mia]

48. Condos have expenses that must be paid

This includes insurance (the largest portion and is required for all who have a mortgage.), utilities, assessments for a new roof etc...
The rest of us who are left paying the fees have divided up the responsibilities of the former management company to save costs. People in foreclosure live free and clear beacause the banks won't take back the properties, because then they would have to pay the condo fees and assessments. it's cheaper for the banks to sit back and do nothing. Plus they have already collected their losses from frannie and freddie.

[JDPriestly]

65. If people are living in your condo and not paying the fees, you and others in the condo

association should talk to a lawyer who specializes in that sort of thing.

Condo fees have to be paid. You may have alternatives.

In fact, I have great difficulty believing this claim about people not paying their condo fees for long periods of time.

[kestrel91316]

77. Bully for you for owning a condo. Too bad you didn't pay any attention at all

to the downside of those silly things: the HOA.

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. People opposed to the concept of shared expenses a la HOAs shouldn't buy condos. You knew what you were getting into.

Buy your own piece of property and build your own single family residence on it, or stop complaining.

[MainlyLurking]

84. What?

So your position is that mia has no position to be frustrated and that the alleged scammers are not at fault because mia is part of a HOA?

So, that is not the intent of the HOA. HOAs generally work, but they count on people carrying the weight they can/should. Just as socialism does. And many times the law allows HOAs to take care of dead weight but sometimes the process is very slow.

Unfortunately, too many people choose not to carry their weight, which is one reason that Socialism will never work (unless you remove the humans from it!)

[kestrel91316]

101. The poster in question is in a hysterical snit over people

receiving various government benefits BECAUSE she is experiencing difficulties with her HOA. That is what I am poking at.

If you think socialism is so bad, you need to work on overturning the US Constitution which specifically entitles the US government to PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE.

[MainlyLurking]

106. Promote the general welfare

is so incredibly vague that it could be used for almost anything.

It could be used to get rid of all cars or force everyone to be given a free car.

It could be used to outlaw abortion or have the gov't actively encourage abortion.

And so on.

Just as "insure domestic Tranquility" supports the establishment of a police state.

Not only that, the preamble states the goals they attempt to achieve, not the means or justification prescribed for doing so. That is in the main body of the Constitution.

[frylock]

144. i think the majority position here is that mia is full of bullshit

[Hassin Bin Sober]

129. Then foreclose on the bank or whomever holds title. The assoc. lien will be superior.

You WILL get your money back.

Stop complaining and get an attorney.

[Flatulo]

63. Not all disabilities put one in a wheelchair.

People with degenerative disc disease, a common malady for those of us over 50, may be able to walk a few hundred yards, or if they're lucky, a quarter mile or so. Often times the sufferer may only be able to sit or stand for an hour or so before the pain becomes unbearable. The usual treatment (when surgery isnt a viable option), is opiate pain meds, which come with a whole host of side-effects, including chronic constipation (which can become so bad that one can become completely impacted, requiring surgery to remove and resection part of the intestine), and the loss of one's teeth, not to mention impotence, nausea and abdominal pain.

Often spinal epidurals will be administered to reduce the constant inflammation. This involves inserting a bunch of 6" needles into the epidural space and injecting cortico-steroids. Side effects include partial or full paralysis and death. The treatment only partially relieves symptoms, and then only for two months or so before they need to be repeated.

Some days, for no reason at all, the back muscles may go into spasm, making it impossible to even move one inch. Out comes the bedpan when this happens. You're trapped on the floor for a week to 10 days, wishing you were dead every minute of the time.

The sufferer may otherwise look fine, but in fact is living an existence of sheer misery.

I know all this because I have been living this nightmare for the past few years. I have two ruptured discs, radicular neuropathy, stenosis, a grade 2 spondylolisthesis (slippage between two vertabrae), and severe facet joint arthritis. I had to stop working a year ago and applied for SSDI. I'm not even going to try to tell you how much I've suffered. Many times I thought about blowing my brains out to stop the pain. I was just awarded my benefit this week after a five month wait, which I am told was a land speed record. In order to be awarded benefits, I had to produce MRIs, X-rays and CT scans an doctor's notes going back 10 years. I had to get multiple surgeons to write letters to the SS Administration. I had to be examined by their doctors as well. The whole process was something of a nightmare.

So no matter what you may have heard, it's actually pretty hard to be awarded disability. If you're faking it, they will know. If there is the slightest chance that you could perform meaningful labor, they will require you to do so. If there is the slightest chance that rehabilitation or physical therapy would allow you to return to work, you will be required to do so.

I'm sure that there are malingerers taking advantage of the system, but I bet it's not as many as you think. Maybe back in the day it was easier to get benefits, but now it's extremely difficult.

I also get that you work very hard. I did too, for 37 years. I'm not ashamed that I'm getting my benefit, because I paid into the system for most of my life, and always the maximum amount because I was a high wage earner. No one is pooh-poohing your labor, and if they are, then they're idiots. But no one is asking anything of you other than to pay your taxes, just like we all do.

You might need this life-saving program yourself some day. You just never know.

[mia]

70. Thank you for your post.

I'm extremely lucky that I can walk around and work without pain. No one who truly needs benefits should be ashamed to get them. Nevertheless, there are people in my world who know how to take advantage of government assistance.

[Flatulo]

80. I'm sure you sincerely believe that some of your neighbors are gaming the system,

but believe me, it is not easy to get approved. I used to think the same thing until I went through the process myself.

They might also be mentally or emotionally disabled. They may look physically fine but suffer from severe anxiety or depression.

[Ms. Toad]

138. And you know that because you

go to their doctor's visits with them or are otherwise privy to their private medical information?

Allow me to introduce you to my daughter. She is 22 years old, and looks perfectly healthy. She goes to the gym most days to work out.

She also has a liver disease you can't see. That is only one of the chronic diseases she has. She needs about 14 hours of sleep a day just to make it upright until bedtime the next night - and sometimes 14 hours isn't enough. And sometimes, even though she is completely exhausted she can't fall asleep until 6 AM, the time she has to get up to go to the class she is taking (more about that later). That is called sleep inversion, a common problem with liver disorders.

Although she was valedictorian of her high school class, about half the time now, her brain is mush. We don't know whether it is because hepatic encephalopathy (a form of dementia associated with degenerative liver disorders), fatigue, sleep deprivation, or depression at being diagnosed at 18 with an illness that (at that time) had a prognosis of a mean of 10 years to death or transplant - or, perhaps the impact of the anti-depressants she is taking to combat the emotional impact of that diagnosis.

That class she is taking? Even though she is 22, and has been trying to attend school full time since she graduated at age 17, every semester she crashes and burns and loses 1/3 to 1/2 of the credits she has attempted. (Fortunately, thanks to the ACA, she no longer has to pretend to be full time in order to keep her insurance.) Her transcript looks like crap. So she is taking summer classes - to try to keep from taking longer than 6 years to graduate. The class she needs, if she has any hope of surviving organic chemistry in the fall, is only offered at 8:00 AM. Not really compatible with needing 14 hours of sleep a night. So every morning I set my alarm for 6 AM, crawl in bed with her, and pound on her long enough and hard enough to roll her out of bed so she can get her body into class. No alarm in the world would wake her, especially if it has been a sleep inversion night.

She is not on disability, only because I am still paying all of her bills. A good thing for you, because her average health costs per year run between $40,000 and $60,000. In the year(s) she needs a transplant - the cost will be around half a million. She would be unable to make it on her own without disablity. Who is going to pay someone with a high school diploma and an extremely crappy college transcript (but no degree), enough as part time worker (all she could manage) to cover costs like that. So, even if she might like to work part time - to feel better about herself - she literally couldn't afford to.

But, if she lived next door to you you would probably mistake her for someone taking advantage of government assistance because she looks like any healthy 22 year old, trotting off to the gym (which, incidentally, is probably keeps her from needing 16 hours of sleep a day).

Unless you are really significantly more involved than most people are in their neighbor's business (and by that I mean visiting the doctor with them, doing medical research on whatever their condition is, or other means of really understanding the details of whatever ails them), it is pretty presumptuous to accuse them of taking advantage of the system.

[SunsetDreams]

75. Powerful post

Kudos to you for having the patience to write that out. Some people think you can just send a doctors note to SSDI and that's it, you automatically are approved. That's not the case at all. It is extremely hard to qualify for it and even when you do qualify, just like in your case, you have to wait months to get your first check. I hope that the doctors have got your pain to a level where you can have as much quality of life as you can. I'm glad that you finally got your SSDI and don't have the added worries on top of your health of wondering where your next meal is going to come from, or how you will pay your bills. I'm sure in this economy money is still tight, but at least your burden is hopefully lessened.

Thank you for sharing your story

[Flatulo]

79. Thanks. I still consider myself lucky. I Look at these poor kids coming back

from Iraq or Afghanistan missing limbs, or with their psyche damaged, at such a young age and I simply cannot imagine their pain and suffering.

I was lucky that I was good about keeping my medical records. Without them, a claim can take years. Most people are routinely denied benefits and then have to retain a lawyer and begin a lengthy appeal process.

I'm also lucky that I found a good pain management doctor who's been very understanding and compassionate. My daily regimen of meds have helped immensely, as long as I don't push my limits. I tried to pull out just a few weeds last week, and I was on the floor for the next few days.

The toughest part has been the gradual loss of my activities. I used to run, bike, play racquetball and lift weights. Now all I can do is swim a little bit on my back. I can't even carry a few small grocery bags.

Lastly, I was lucky to have a compassionate and loving wife who has taken over all the household activities involving lifting or lugging.

Thanks again for your kind words.

[kestrel91316]

75. Thank you for wishing my elderly great-grandparents had starved,

those lazy slackers who, when my great-grandfather couldn't work as a butcher anymore back in the 1950s, had the gall to collect public assistance for a time. they had always been poor in their tiny Nebraska town, both before and after the Depression, and could never get ahead. But at least the commie thieves stole from other folks who were still working to make sure that folks like my great-grandparents didn't wind up starving on the street.

Go suck an egg. Your RW talking points are highly offensive.

[ohiosmith]

119. This post was alerted on. The jury voted 4/2 to let it stand.

At Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:59 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I believe that there are more than a few who game the system.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=966769

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Wingnut spouting RW talking points. "They have satellite TV's and Iphones"... give me a break.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 18, 2012, 03:06 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This post is wrongheaded as hell but should be answered in the forum, not alerted on. It's a silly post but doesn't violate the rules.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The poster is relating personal experiences. Leave the post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The "which I cannot afford" mitigates the comment about Iphones and satellite TV but I agree with person who alerted, it does kinda reek a bit. Still it's a borderline comment and I will err on the side of the original poster rather than censor.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Cerridwen]

120. I'm glad it was left to stand.

I look down this thread and there is much discussion, heated, nice, not so nice, and I see no hidden posts and only one self-deleted.

That makes me feel good and it reminds me of why I originally joined DU; to talk, to discuss, to learn and to inform.

I'm glad it stood and I'm glad people have responded, mostly, civilly if perhaps, not nicely.

[NYC_SKP]

146. I am with you, largely.

Without having read each of your posts, I will agree that there are those getting assistance who shouldn't.

Some fraction, large or small, of business owners, elite, as well as people who will take advantage of public assistance programs, exist to live as parasites on other productive people.

It's really a shame that many progressives will defend groups as an unassailable block, when reality indicates that parasites exist among all classes and incomes.

[uppityperson]

125. Everyone on social security, everyone getting vets benefits are "pathological liars", don't want to

work?

Since they claim government money, you must certainly be including them. I'll call my 90 yr old uncle and tell him he's a pathological liar who doesn't want to work and get back to you.

[MrDiaz]

81. can this same logic

be applied to the firearms issues? The positive outcomes, far outweigh the negatives?

[Hippo_Tron]

133. Well lets see here

Positive effects of welfare: Feeding, clothing, and housing people (including children) who would otherwise be on the street and possibly die of hunger or disease.

Negative effects of welfare cheats: A miniscule amount of your tax dollars that you would hardly notice if you got it back goes to some people who don't deserve it.

Positive effects of guns: Hunting, target shooting, and in certain circumstances useful for protection.

Negative effects of guns: Over 10,000 gun homicides every year.

So if, in your view, the positives outweigh the negatives then by all means this logic applies.

I'm not particularly in favor of gun control, btw. There's way too many guns in this country to actually try and control anything at this point.

[ibegurpard]

33. how you got that from this post is beyond me

I have no problem with anyone being wealthy and I'm a big proponent for personal responsibility. But no one gets ahead anywhere completely on their own. That is the point. Someone paid for the roads you use to drive to work, the pipes that give you fresh water, the electricity that you used to make your lame argument. Someone is paying for whatever it is you're selling to make a living. This myth that everyone can just do it on their own with no help from anyone else is horseshit and leads to anarchy.

[mia]

54. The infrastructure is provided for all.

Some look for opportunity to better survive. Some have never learned that this is an option.

[treestar]

52. NO one chooses that

Stupid right wing talking point. There are not two separate sets of people. Those individuals worked at one time or will again, paying in to the system. You could need to use it at some point. With this attitude, I practically hope you do. How are you so certain you'll always be able to find a job? If it were a Depression, you'd be affected like everyone else.

[mia]

58. There aren't two types of people.

I believe that most of those paying attention via the internet are in the middle and are trying to survive. Talking points will get you in the end. It's best not to commit them to memory.

[treestar]

60. BS you have stated in terms of people who pay in and people who take out

As if they are always the same people. And as if there are no ups and downs in the economy, it's all virtue and hard work. No, you don't have that much control over the economy no matter how much you try to reassure yourself it can never happen to you. That's the psychological game you are playing. If you just keep repeating yourself, it will never be you who is unemployed.

[mia]

64. I don't agree with your interpretation.

There are times when all of us pay in and take out. The time will soon be coming when I will be taking out as I am beyond SS retirement age. I consider it a privilege to have been able to work for so long. I'm a teacher and no matter what you or anyone else says I'll continue teach my students that their achievement has a lot to do with their efforts. It's something to do with empowerment.

[LiberalAndProud]

128. I agree with you

in my worst moments.

My neighbors are dog haters. I have two dogs. We are constantly receiving anonymous Animal Control complaints. We know who is complaining, but they choose to call the authorities rather than speak to us face to face. The other evening, we had a cop knock on our door to tell us that our music was too loud. The cop couldn't hear the music until he got onto the porch, right up to the front door. This is apropos of what, you ask?

My neighbors are a blind couple with small children. They depend on my tax dollars for the assistance they require to live independently. Regardless of my personal feelings toward these people, I am very glad that they are able to get that assistance. It pleases me.

Except in my worst moments.

[Bluerthanblue]

7. well done!!!

great job Cerridwen-

[Cerridwen]

8. Thank you. :)

Parody for fun and not-for-profit. Hmmmm, methinks I'm doing this wrong.

[Ruby the Liberal]

18. Nice job!

k&r

[Cerridwen]

86. Thanks, Ruby. n/t

[Zalatix]

23. He conceived himself and gave birth to himself, too.

Wait, is his name Xenu?

[calimary]

26. Yeah, who needs women anyway? They're just annoying and they always need something.

[freshwest]

28. Awesome OP. Can we share it?

[Cerridwen]

83. Thank you and yes, please feel free to share.

Sorry so long to respond. Life happened not long after I posted.

[lonestarnot]

32. A fucking miracle.

[SunsetDreams]

36. K&R awesome post!

[Cerridwen]

87. You're very kind. Thank you. n/t

[Demonaut]

38. brilliant

[Cerridwen]

88. thanks

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. I get it. Success is not possible without some degree of government involvement.

That's the point everyone wants to make, right?

To quote from an OP on this subject:

For starters, somebody gave them an education. Even if they were somehow home-schooled and self-taught, someone still provided the learning materials and books they needed.

They had to get their startup money from somewhere. Either through their family, friends, or a bank loan.

They made use of public infrastructure - roads, bridges, seaports, airports, etc.

Almost every business nowadays relies heavily on the internet - which would not exist without government involvement.

Everyone has access to a public education, at least through high school. Everyone has access to the infrastructure - roads, bridges, seaports, airports, etc. Everyone has access to the internet.

I would have to ask then; what sets those who are successful apart from those who aren't? Is it brains? President Obama says no; lots of people have brains. Is it hard work? President Obama says no; lots of people work hard. What is it then? Is it discipline? Sacrifice? Willingness to risk everything one has? It would seem there HAS to be some value or trait evident in successful people that isn't there in others.

If all it takes is government involvement, as people keep pushing as necessary for success, why isn't everyone successful?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=956475

[Yeah Its Spin]

45. As Hillary said, It takes a village

[cherokeeprogressive]

47. Ya know - I'm not sure Hillary was talking about becoming successful in business.

I could be wrong but I'm thinking she was talking about something else entirely.

[Yeah Its Spin]

51. bootstrapping schools ;)

Clinton presents her vision for the children of America. She focuses on the impact individuals and groups outside the family have, for better or worse, on a child's well-being, and advocates a society which meets all of a child's needs.

I would argue, the Small Business Administration is a group outside the family

[cherokeeprogressive]

55. Otay...

[Yeah Its Spin]

59. Ok, the bootstrapping schools part first...

Horace Mann said, Education is the great equalizer then in order for us to have a society where anyone of us, no matter our station, can 'pull ourselves up by the bootstraps', then we need to take an approach at making education equal, not competitive as is happening with the current business model that's been applied, that attempts to pump out products rather than informed citizens, and in so doing, widens the valley between the Title I schools in urban areas and the middle class schools which are better prepared. I challenge you to live in the conditions of a poor person and then with no help, pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

Finland came from behind to become the world leader in student achievement. Their strategy is the opposite of what we’re doing in America.
http://www.nea.org/home/40991.htm

the Hillary part, I think is self explanatory.

[treestar]

56. The class one is born into

A combination of things. Some people are born with enough talent to overcome the fact they were born into a very poor class. Some people are born into a class that is so badly off there isn't much hope, unless they happen to be really good at sports or music and get discovered. Some people will succeed no matter how little ability or talent they have, because they were born into such a high class (Rmoney and Dubya).

No way can Rmoney give himself as much credit for going to Harvard as Obama can. When you're born into a class like Rmoney's it just comes to you without any effort on your part.

Most of us fall in the middle - we were born into a class from when if we take advantage of the education offered us we will do reasonably well as long as we are healthy, but we will never get wildly wealthy.

[PETRUS]

61. I think people are reacting to a couple of things.

Inequality has been increasing and economic mobility has been declining. (This can be traced to policy changes.) People know that as wealth and income at the top has increased, their taxes have gone down. For the first few decades following WWII productivity gains were shared more or less equally. Since around 1980, a larger and larger share has gone to the very top. It's getting harder to get ahead. I don't know that anyone expects everybody to be successful but most people support equality of opportunity. We had a social contract involving mildly redistributive policies that helped move us closer to that ideal and it's being chipped away.

Also, at any given time there will be a number of people who are not able to take care of themselves. Many believe that we should help them with public money, and that is also under attack.

I think that's why you're seeing posts like this.

[JDPriestly]

68. How do you define successful?

Is your measure only financial wealth?

Because lots of people feel successful if they have many dear friends and a wonderful family and make modest amounts of money. These are, I believe, the happiest people on earth. Their lives are filled with love, and they don't mind sharing even with the occasional freeloader.

I feel sorry for people who resent those who rely on welfare for their daily bread. They don't really know what a joy there is in knowing that no one is going hungry or suffering more than necessary.

When I see homeless people on the streets (and there are quite a number in my area), my heart goes out to them, and ask how can we be such a selfish society. No one should be homeless or hungry in this country. No one.

[Cerridwen]

85. Actually, if you'll read my OP rather than sticking on

the other you linked, you'll notice I mention all kinds of people and skills. Parents, farmers, weavers, teachers, mentors, cooks, builders, etc.; though not by name so much as by skill.

I'm from the west. There are great stories of people coming here and "making a killing" through mining or gambling or thievery or murder. Miners wound up in mining camps with extortion rate laundries and "restaurants." Of course the ore they mined was useless unless there was a buyer.

Barn raisings were community events. Ranchers and farmers formed guilds and posses.

Hell, even that most romanticised of hermits, the mountain men, gathered together to trade furs, tobacco, liquor, get a new pair of boots and to tell "no shit there I was" stories.

My point, in this OP, is that people need the skills and knowledge of others and our and their history. Throughout history, humans gathered together and created communities for protection, for sharing skills, to make war, to make love, all kinds of reasons.

In case you've forgotten your civics lessons or were never taught such, at least in theory, "government" is "We, the People."

To answer your question, "what sets those who are successful apart from those who aren't?"

First, define successful. Do you mean is a happy and healthy person? Do you mean a well-rounded, Renaissance type person. Do you mean a kind and compassionate person? Some mix of all of the above? Someone who successfully heals themselves and others? Someone who cares for others? Someone who teaches and mentors others? A 'good' parent? A 'good' neighbor?

Or do you count success in dollars and credit ratings? Do you measure square footage of a home to determine if it's adequately sized to reflect success? Do you measure who has the biggest bank account? The most assets?

As you may note, I question the dominant definitions and value system that says success equals happiness and that stuff equals success.

I still say we do not exist in a vacuum, and as I posted elsewhere (perhaps that other thread you reference?) we stand on the shoulders of those who've come before. And I'll add, we succeed best who succeed together. That is why we make communities.

/steps off soap box

[hfojvt]

98. here's one definition of successful

ah, hell, I pre-failed. Could not even get the youtube clip to load properly.



but I could not find the little speech by the Frinkazoid.



to quote Atreyu - "I have failed you Empress."


p.s. This is the quote I was looking for, wanted a video clip, but then remembered I have it written down
because I used it for a presentation in a "social problems" class.

"Well, I guess that depends on how you define success. If to you,
success means having a house in Aspen, one in Acapulco, a penthouse
in New York, a mansion in Malibu, a sixty foot yacht, an eight seat
Windstar, a Belljet Ranger, a Bentley, a personal trainer, a full
-time chef, a live-in masseuse, and a staff of twenty four, then yeah,
I guess I've been successful." the Frinkazoid in "Romy and Michelle's
High School Reunion"

[Cerridwen]

100. I checked your edit and the video came up for me. (edit)

I'm not sure to what speech you were looking for so I got nothin' on that.

As you might imagine, I don't play well with those types portrayed in the video. Well, actually, I don't much associate with type of person if I have an option.

I prefer the original meaning of 'compete' rather than its later version(s).

1610s, from M.Fr. compéter "be in rivalry with" (14c.), or directly from L.L. competere "strive in common," in classical Latin "to come together, agree, to be qualified," later, "strive together," from com- "together" (see com-) + petere "to strive, seek, fall upon, rush at, attack" (see petition). Rare 17c., and regarded early 19c. as a Scottish or Amer.Eng. word. Market sense is from 1840s (perhaps a back formation from competition); athletics sense attested by 1857. Related: Competed; competing. link

And FYI, L.L. Late Latin, the literary Latin language as spoken and written c.300-c.700.

edit: Thanks for the quote. And the video. As you might imagine, those things aren't the things I want for my definition of success. I'm a very weird person in this "dog eat dog" world.

[JoePhilly]

104. Opportunity is what seperates those who make it, and those who don't. I know.

See, I was a lower middle class kid, who grew up with a bunch of other guys who were lower middle class kids.

Of about 14 of us, only three made it to college. None of us could actually afford college, and at least 10 of us had the grades to go.

I was one of the three who "made it" to college. I used Pell Grants, Stafford loans, student loans, and credit cards to pay for it. The Pell grants and the Stafford loans are what the GOP wants to get rid of because those are backed by the evil government.

Most of my other friends were unable to get such loans. As a result, the were prevented from taking advantage of the "opportunity" a college education provides.

The three of us who went to college have much higher networths now than those of our friends who were unable to attend college for financial reasons.

Oh yea, back then, Reagan was President. He removed the tax break on student loans and credit card interest, making it just that much more expensive for a lower middle class kid to go to college. Standard GOP.

This is why the GOP encourages its base to skip college, and to not be upset that their kids can't afford it. They don't want poor and middle class kids in their colleges. Because that creates opportunity.

What the GOP wants is compliant workers.

As for your description of Obama ... its nonsense.

BTW ... how does some one who has nothing, risk everything? Do you actually think the kids of the rich, who become successful because of the increased access to opportunity, which money provides, have some "special trait" that makes them better than a poor kid who lacks the money and access to opportunity that money provides?

Pretty silly.

[haele]

115. Because there is no common definition for success -

and not everyone can be a manager, or a business owner, or a farmer/landowner.
What do you do when you have a couple dozen million people left over after you've filled up all the "successful" jobs that the economy and the environment can sustain? What do you do when more than half the "work" available that needs to be done actually only requires part-time workforce to be hired - so if you had an intelligent and generous employer (looking at the negative long-term implications hiring only as needed which results in an inconsistent workforce and quality), they'd hire you full time and eat the margin when in terms of production, when they only needed you for three-quarters of the time at best...

From experience; most of the cubicle critters I know have a lot of time in between tasks when an office or company hires to the most efficient level between quality of work and level of workforce; that is why when businesses look at the bottom line and "downsize" to the point that the few remaining workers are overwhelmed with work, the quality of work and the capabilities of the workforce nosedive and those businesses usually find themselves losing money.

As for success itself - c'mon, it's it's not just about money and things. It's about the ability to be happy with what you're surviving on.

Some people want to live in familiar, safe and solid luxury, with lots of "stuff" around them. Some people are happier with nothing to tie them down, living for three hots and a cot, going from place to place whenever they feel like them.
Some people prefer to work for wages, letting someone else take responsibility for handling the bookkeeping and the business. Some people like to be in control of every minute detail.
Some people are artisans, who feel successful only when there is a tangible result. Some people could care less about a result, they're just happy feeling like there's something for them to wake up for in the morning.
Some people do best at hard, physical labor. Some people are best at thinking labor, mental puzzles of numbers or words that they pass hours and hours going over with. Some people like having a lot of people around them, some people prefer to be alone. Some are wicked smart, some are intelligent but unwise, some are wise but un-intelligent, some need to have their hand held crossing the room.

Some people just need a job that matches their abilities. A person who is best suited to be a farmer is not going to do as well at the job if they're a technical consultant for a bank's regional department.

All these "feelings" and abilities factor into how best a person can work in the environment they are in and how they personally would define success. It might not be how popular culture or you personally would define success, but there it is.

If you are defining "successful" as the ability to make a living and retire with enough that SSI is gravy and you don't really need any "help" from the government other than a mortgage program or student loan or so that you can fairly easily pay off, you're defining the financial success of the top 2% of the US population. In 1970, you'd probably be defining the financial success of the top 50% of the US population.

So... looking at the actual issue, there are a lot of factors other than what an individual does with government help that define "successful" Once you get your finger on it, you've pretty much answered your own question.

Haele

[LiberalAndProud]

145. It's a good question, but a head start doesn't hurt.

We are quickly becoming a society where success can only be had by the heirs of success. The rare exception only proves the rule. I will point to Paris Hilton, Bristol Palin, Nicole Richie, Luke Russert ... the list is endless of rich, famous and successful(?) for no apparent reason except for parentage.

It isn't really about involving government to manufacture individual success, is it? There are many things that can be done more efficiently together than separately, and isn't that government involvement should be about? And shouldn't we be about demanding a certain minimum level of existence? Societies, in the end, are defined by that minimum.

The problem is that instead of 'us', the government has become 'them' in our minds.

[JoeyT]

153. People that ask that question are rarely happy with the answer.

The answer is that it's mostly privilege and luck.

Everyone loves the feel good story of the guy that started a business from nothing and now he's thriving, but for every one of that guy there are hundreds that managed to cobble together a business only to have it fail due to circumstances that are often beyond their control.

For every one of that shining success story there are probably literally thousands that wanted to create a business and just flat out couldn't raise the capital to do it. Maybe their parents were dirt poor so they had no access to credit. Maybe they couldn't get loans because they didn't have any collateral because they'd never made more than minimum wage. Maybe they just had the wrong skin color and the bank didn't want to lend them money.

"Everyone has access to a public education, at least through high school. Everyone has access to the infrastructure - roads, bridges, seaports, airports, etc. Everyone has access to the internet."

Yeah, but your access to public education doesn't count for much if you're raising younger siblings. It doesn't help much if you're poorer than a churchmouse and the entire experience is miserable, either. Access to roads and bridges doesn't count for shit if you can't afford a car. Access to airports doesn't count for much if you can't afford tickets. Access to the internet doesn't count for much if you can't afford a computer. Access to seaports doesn't count for much if you can't afford it either.

Everyone doesn't have the same ability to use education, capital, or infrastructure. To pretend they do is downright silly.

[FlaGranny]

154. My personal observation

is that very beautiful people become successful AND very ruthless people become successful more often than "ugly" and/or "kind" people, men more often than women, etc. It is a societal bias. Many are content just to live a good life without the need to be "successful." Usually our society defines successful as wealthy. I define successful as "content with life."

[Yeah Its Spin]

44. Great Post

Last edited Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:28 AM - Edit history (1)

Here are some ideas to continue your amazing tale..

He rode his tamed dinosaur to his bootstrap factory, where he has to work two shifts to cover for the welfare queens who choose to not follow his fantastic upbringing and stay home with those nasty hoodie wearing kids sponging off the tax dollars of others, who choose not to buy bootstraps from his company store for the hope that their children can be educated and have a better life than the bootstrap factory that Self Made Man threatens to close every time he has to pay a wage that could get the welfare queens to give up the dole

[Cerridwen]

89. LOL

Cute add-on to the tale.

Thanks for the morning laugh.

[patrice]

57. Delicious!

[Cerridwen]

90. Why, thank you.

I can't seem to find a bowing or curtseying smilie which I think would be appropriate here. So, instead.

[Cerridwen]

91. I'm honored. Thank you. :) n/t

[susanna]

67. Applause! Wonderful. n/t

[Cerridwen]

93. Thank you, susanna. n/t

[reformist2]

69. Individualism fails because families/communities are the building blocks of society, not individuals

[kestrel91316]

78. While I agree with the general idea of your post, as a

childless single woman I resent the implication that I am not one of the building blocks of society.

[Egalitarian Thug]

107. I didn't think anybody knew of my existence. K&R.

[Blue Meany]

114. OK, so what has this guy contributed to society that he will be allowed to live

when is life is reviewed by the death panels?

[Cerridwen]

116. A mythological existence that has been used to

justify the most heinous of values.

He's "John Wayne" (who, himself wasn't John Wayne), "the strong, silent type", the perversion that is American 'stoicism', and he's added to the idea(l)s of "every man for himself", Horatio Alger, "rags to riches" stories, a hero mythology for the corporate raider mindset, "John Galt", a perversion of individualism that denies the community and family (born or created), and so much more.

"He" allows us to think we "succeed" or "fail", in a vacuum. "He" allows us to look down at others. "He" hides from us the systems of abuses and destruction as we blame ourselves for being less-than "self made."

He cannot be killed because he does not exist.

I wish we could exorcise this evil spectre.

[One_Life_To_Give]

127. Is Obama a Self-Made Man?

Wouldn't call Romney self made but Barack I would. 99 people out of a hundred given the exact same opportunities and disadvantages as him would never have risen to be POTUS. Thomas Edison also fits the self made IMO. Now FDR was born with the proverbial silver spoon. Had he been an ordinary president, much less have walked into congress when paralyzed then self made wouldn't have applied either.

Self made doesn't require that every last detail was done solely by oneself. It describes some admirable human qualities. Most people will not significantly differ from their starting place in life. But some few individuals will accomplish far more than average thru their own sheer will and perseverance. And that is worth acknowledging.

[Cerridwen]

130. "Self made doesn't require that every last detail was done solely by oneself."

The OP is a parody of the talking points that are used to justify some disgustingly shit values.

If you listen to President Obama, he frequently discusses the influences of his mother, his grandmother, his wife and his daughters on his life.

I bet he would understand my OP in a way you seem to be trying to avoid and in a manner in which you're trying to equate what I said with saying something awful about the President.

You might want to go read some history of Edison and perhaps about FDR, as well.

We don't live in a vacuum and there are many things that influence us; including idea(l)s and values.

[One_Life_To_Give]

131. Just pointing out a broad brush

I don't see any values, just fear in Pug talking points.

I think self-made is a worthy characteristic. Not to be disparaged just because it's used in a pug fear campaign.

[Cerridwen]

132. I think "self-made" is a delusional myth.

Therein explaining why I made a parody.

As long as you don't "see any values" you will continue to not see the myth.

Good luck. I wish you much success; even if you have to rely on the "kindness of strangers" to get there.

[crazyjoe]

136. makes you wonder how man kind ever survived without government.

[Cerridwen]

137. And parents and teachers and mentors and

tradespeople, and craftsmen, and builders, and scientists, and researchers, and sharing information and knowledge, and healers...

Oh wait, it would appear we've had those many people and their skills for quite some time. Amazing how many human written histories talk of some form of collective keeping things running. Sometimes they were called governments. Weird, huh?

[FlaGranny]

156. The larger the society

the more need there is for government. Small farming villages can survive without government, but larger communities long ago decided that life was much easier, and that even individually, they were more successful if they banded together and shared responsibilities.

Only some wealthy people, and others deluded by them, say that assisting the community at large is "ripping them off," when, instead, it provides them with great, but sometimes indirect, benefit.

The larger the disparity between the wealthy and the poor becomes, the more unstable a society beomes.

[riverbendviewgal]

139. Great post..

Got everyone thinking..

There was some post about people doing fraud - free loaders on the system......I would like to comment on that.

I used to be a fraud analyst...My field was in telecommunication so there was ID fraud, Cell phone fraud, and credit card fraud and also dealer/agent fraud. First of all, compared to the dollars profited by the company I worked for,r it was so little, even though it amounted to millions some years. Management did not really care. It took years for me to get over that.

Agent fraud was good!!! It made the company look better...They really did not care about people being victims of ID fraud or that their credit cards were used to purchase or make payments on the company's profits.

The company made money from the law agencies for charging for search warrants.

It was profitable in some ways....made the numbers look good.

It was acceptable.

But let me say this again the percentage of fraud was not big compared to the profits made..

I believe no one is self-made. We are all in this boat together, on this road together. Some of us are fortunate to have our health, good families and friends to help us along. Some are alone and need assistance. We should not begrudge people...

I have a niece who had a good education and is smart but she shocked me so much when she said she didn't want to be paying for anyone else's health care. She said she got good health care from work and why should she pay for anyone else's. She is a mother and said she did not care if other children did not have any. She just cared about her own.. Obviously she is a Republican.

I am just an old hippy progressive who does care. Hope that Obama wins and that a Democratic senate and congress is his to make America the best again.

[Cerridwen]

140. You have just paid me the highest compliment.

My OP "Got everyone thinking.."

Thank you so very much; for the compliment and for adding your story to some of the amazing stories people have shared in this thread.

I keep reading through this thread to read the stories; the lived experiences of people who are willing to share those experiences.

Thank you, riverbendviewgal. You just made my day(?), week(?), month(?), whichever.

[riverbendviewgal]

142. You are very welcome

I love reading everyone's opinions...I may not agree with all the time but I learn from them. Thank you for bringing up this self made man...I loved your parable.

You know sometimes I would get upset seeing someone park in a disable spot...but there are some disabilities we don't see. Sure, there are scammers but I want to believe most are really disabled in some way. You can't see a bad heart or breathing problem or arthritis.

I am not religious anymore but I do believe that God is a progressive liberal.

[Godot51]

148. Tell us more...

... I, myself, would like to hear the part about how he self made his wife and children. Did he scoop up some dirt and mix it with his spit? or did he draw a rib from his side? Hurry. The suspense is killing me!

[judesedit]

149. Loved this.No one is self made.Either daddy left a bundle, you ripped people off, or have hard worke

rs doing the work for you. You had mothers, fathers, teachers, bosses, educational material written by OTHER people, lawyers, doctors, etc, etc,etc. that helped you get where you are today. Every day you use stuff created by others so your life can be more pleasant. I could go on and on. Stop kissing yourselves egomaniacs. If you're wealthy, and have maintained it, you're just lucky. Accept it. But, beware.....look at jailbird Ponzi and the bankruptcy king Trump. If you don't start being more realistic and more grateful, you could be next.

[rocktivity]

150. Kick, rec, and my pathetic attempt at saying the same thing the other day

Speaking as a VERY small business owner, I sent out 2000 emails today -- but I didn't send out 2000 emails today. I was ABLE to send out 2000 emails in one day because of the e-mailing software I used -- a product that "somebody else made happen." And if even one per cent of the "somebodies" to whom I sent the email buys what it's selling, they will make it "possible" for me to earn a couple of thousand dollars for a couple of hours of work. That's how ALL businesses are built -- with "somebodies" like employees, suppliers, vendors, and most important, customers...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=958606

rocktivity

[BlancheSplanchnik]

151. SUPERB!!!

Really really excellent!!!

Thank you for a terrific read!!

[malaise]

155. An absolutely fabulous post

Rec

[Javaman]

157. The Kinks - A Well Respected Man Lyrics

Cause he gets up in the morning,
And he goes to work at nine,
And he comes back home at five-thirty,
Gets the same train every time.
Cause his world is built round punctuality,
It never fails.

And he's oh, so good,
And he's oh, so fine,
And he's oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He's a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively.

And his mother goes to meetings,
While his father pulls the maid,
And she stirs the tea with councilors,
While discussing foreign trade,
And she passes looks, as well as bills
At every suave young man

Cause he's oh, so good,
And he's oh, so fine,
And he's oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He's a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively.

And he likes his own backyard,
And he likes his fags the best,
Cause he's better than the rest,
And his own sweat smells the best,
And he hopes to grab his fathers loot,
When pater passes on.

Cause he's oh, so good,
And he's oh, so fine,
And he's oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He's a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively.

And he plays at stocks and shares,
And he goes to the regatta,
And he adores the girl next door,
Cause he's dying to get at her,
But his mother knows the best about
The matrimonial stakes.

Cause he's oh, so good,
And he's oh, so fine,
And he's oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He's a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively.