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JOY doing segment on Hefner and civil rights...and YES he was an activist (Original Post) jodymarie aimee Sep 2017 OP
He was a serious civil rights activist malaise Sep 2017 #1
Yes, and reality is complex, even before considering changing societal attitudes. Hortensis Sep 2017 #33
Life is black and white for some malaise Sep 2017 #37
right, so maybe he did some bad along with the good? why only allow talk of one? nt TheFrenchRazor Sep 2017 #44
There is that Lotusflower70 Sep 2017 #55
No he wasn't ...Hef was a God damned woman hating bigot... Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #75
That's a great observation. And not just... Whiskeytide Oct 2017 #82
This message was self-deleted by its author JonLP24 Sep 2017 #2
know him personally then? jodymarie aimee Sep 2017 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author JonLP24 Sep 2017 #6
And admitting to it also. People aren't paper cutouts, and even if they were Hortensis Sep 2017 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author JonLP24 Sep 2017 #13
You should have meant expensive, but you'd have still been wrong. Hortensis Sep 2017 #16
This message was self-deleted by its author JonLP24 Sep 2017 #19
Oh, sorry. His doings were "pimpings" of all the OTHER employees he put in scanty Hortensis Sep 2017 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author JonLP24 Sep 2017 #28
He made a fortune from exploiting women's bodies True_Blue Sep 2017 #31
His civil rights efforts, while admirable, did not seem to extend The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #3
elaborate jodymarie aimee Sep 2017 #5
How about "These chicks are our natural enemy" The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #7
We are Democrats jodymarie aimee Sep 2017 #8
So everybody who calls himself a Democrat The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #9
Thank you! 50 Shades Of Blue Sep 2017 #12
Usually agree with you, TVO, but Hefner was a product of his times, just as, Hortensis Sep 2017 #14
Except for the fact that he never shed his antiquated attitudes, The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #15
I refuse the deflection: we're talking about YOUR statement to another here. Hortensis Sep 2017 #18
Did you mean to respond to post 8? That was a real deflection. SharonClark Oct 2017 #68
Only if they want to be.... Jim Beard Sep 2017 #22
Are you saying that men should not fantasize about having sex with beautiful women? oberliner Sep 2017 #23
This nonsense reply is beneath you. You know that's not what the poster is saying, Squinch Sep 2017 #27
I think it's a legitimate debate oberliner Sep 2017 #46
Uh huh. Squinch Sep 2017 #50
Fair enough oberliner Sep 2017 #53
How about you go back to post 15 and read it like Velveteen Ocelot might Squinch Sep 2017 #62
OK oberliner Sep 2017 #65
Still not letting go of your bogus side issue. I'm done. Squinch Sep 2017 #66
I'm saying wryter2000 Sep 2017 #35
The fantasy is separate from reality, though oberliner Sep 2017 #45
Another inaccurate inference to have something... anything to argue against. LanternWaste Oct 2017 #77
This isn't fantasy...these women were drugged, some raped ...Cosby went to the mansion. Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #83
+1000 True_Blue Sep 2017 #32
+1 leftstreet Sep 2017 #34
wow. so "our" pigs are ok? sorry, i'm a dem; not a brain-dead cult member. speak for yourself. nt TheFrenchRazor Sep 2017 #43
LOL! On the deflection scale of 1 to 10, you get a 2 for effort. SharonClark Oct 2017 #70
You're certainly moving your initial goalposts wider and wider as the conversation grows. LanternWaste Oct 2017 #76
For many here that doesn't matter. Sad but true. Squinch Sep 2017 #30
Fuck him - I'm glad he's dead but the damage he did to women will live on. 50 Shades Of Blue Sep 2017 #11
Making women a commodity is not a progressive value. WhiskeyGrinder Sep 2017 #17
jodymarie aimee, I totally agree. I am 70 and remember the time period very well. Jim Beard Sep 2017 #20
when they get like this, they sound like Republicans jodymarie aimee Sep 2017 #24
I went back to college and found this attitude prevelant in many, more so than main street America. Jim Beard Sep 2017 #36
"Events that occurred in their personal lives" were real. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #38
a lot of people are determined not to see anything wrong with the type of treatment you mentioned. TheFrenchRazor Sep 2017 #41
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #47
The fact that you call women sluts DLevine Sep 2017 #48
+1000 smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #54
most people are not all good or all bad; it is you who sounds like a repub by insisting that everyt TheFrenchRazor Sep 2017 #42
This isn't about prudery... Adrahil Oct 2017 #71
No, they don"t sound like Republicans. They sound like people who are aware of how women are SharonClark Oct 2017 #72
Hefner was a very complicated man whose choices no_hypocrisy Sep 2017 #25
. Squinch Sep 2017 #26
He held some very progressive positions on a number of issues. guillaumeb Sep 2017 #29
What is revealing is some think the way Heffner treated women was just fine...he was a pig. Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #59
I can appreciate his support for many progressive causes even as I deplore his misogyny. guillaumeb Sep 2017 #60
well, Hitler did bring Germany the Volkswagen delisen Sep 2017 #64
I do not...his misogyny over shadows any good he did. Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #74
it really is not either/or. he did some good and he did some bad. it is a false choice to suggest TheFrenchRazor Sep 2017 #39
Very few people are. Which is why the calls of him being an ultimate evil Blue_Adept Sep 2017 #49
"Ultimate evil" is a bit extreme. I'll save that for Donald Trump. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #51
Would you call him a progressive if he was as much of a racist as he was a misogynist? pnwmom Sep 2017 #63
Great question. SharonClark Oct 2017 #67
i never called him a progressive; i think you misunderstand. nt TheFrenchRazor Oct 2017 #73
Yes, he was, indeed, an activist liberalhistorian Sep 2017 #40
Oh, please. nt Laffy Kat Sep 2017 #52
Treating half the human race as "bunnies" is not progressive. Coventina Sep 2017 #56
Playboy without t/a Watchfoxheadexplodes Sep 2017 #57
Hefner? He was a pig where women were concerned... Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #58
He was a pimp. He was that kind of civil rights "activist." pnwmom Sep 2017 #61
AND, as she discussed.... Adrahil Oct 2017 #69
No. He helped create this objectification culture we have today. HopeAgain Oct 2017 #78
He was an exploitative piece of shit alarimer Oct 2017 #79
Plenty of folks pretended to be liberal during the 60's...it was fashionable. Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #80
He was not a "true progressive" obamanut2012 Oct 2017 #81

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
33. Yes, and reality is complex, even before considering changing societal attitudes.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:50 PM
Sep 2017

I'm wondering if some of these one-dimensional attitudes toward Hefner might be ascribed, not to just one-dimensional thinking, but at least in part to the priggish Reagan-era, 1978ish-2008, attitudes. Probably a bunch of people here grew up in that era.

Although all this narrow-minded mud is supposedly being slung only at Hefner, the women he's famous for displaying actually flew across the country and applied and competed for those "honors." For sure, if he personifies all these disgusting sexist whatevers, respect for equality means these women should also be considered guilty and disgusting. If he can't also be a civil rights activist, surely none of them can either.



Sorry, Darine, don't care how many death threats you got for this, to some you're just a "pimpee."

Whiskeytide

(4,459 posts)
82. That's a great observation. And not just...
Thu Oct 5, 2017, 03:33 PM
Oct 2017

...Hefner. The magazine's run spanned more than 60 years. Our complex and often flawed society changed a lot in that time, and from my experience with the magazine - it did too. What was outrageous in 1955 was only a little controversial in 1976, and was downright quaint by 2001.

Playboy WAS different from other similar publications. It was pretty serious about politics (and leaned way left), contained interesting and often controversial interviews, reviewed books, movies and music, and much more. Sex/sexual fantasies was certainly the theme, but the magazine had a "take" on life that was more than just sex and naked women.

Was it damaging for women? Good question. I understand and agree with the arguments that, in some ways, it was (sexual objectification, anti-feminism, self image/body shaming, etc...), and I understand and agree with the arguments that it sometimes was not (pro-choice, anti-sexual assault, etc...).

On the other hand, was it a beneficial advocate for left-leaning politics, race relations, and LGBT rights? I think clearly yes.

Complex certainly fits.

Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Response to jodymarie aimee (Reply #4)

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
10. And admitting to it also. People aren't paper cutouts, and even if they were
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:43 PM
Sep 2017

deciding an elephant cutout was shaped just like a tree trunk or snake might be an opinion, but that wouldn't make it a very accurate one.

I overall had a great distaste for Hefner, and his daughter, I even read Steinem's unflattering book, but I would never get so carried away as to villify him as a pimp, "high class" (can there be such a thing?) or any other.

Response to Hortensis (Reply #10)

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
16. You should have meant expensive, but you'd have still been wrong.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:58 PM
Sep 2017

Pimping is a real thing, the selling of other people's sexual services. Pornography is also real.

You do no good for the victims of both when you misuse these words to mean far less than the tragedies they typically involve in the real world.

And, by the way, I really don't think Steinem would appreciate your characterization of her as being pimped.

Response to Hortensis (Reply #16)

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
21. Oh, sorry. His doings were "pimpings" of all the OTHER employees he put in scanty
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:10 PM
Sep 2017

or no clothes and displayed to men. Got it.

You should read her magazine article (not book, in this case). It was really heavy on just de-glamming the bunny clubs and describing how hard the waitresses worked and in what uncomfortable costumes. I don't think she'd approve of your characterizing the women she worked with as letting themselves be pimped either.

Response to Hortensis (Reply #21)

 

jodymarie aimee

(3,975 posts)
5. elaborate
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:03 PM
Sep 2017

and by that I mean direct quotes. Not easy- to- slide- into stereotyping...You guys didn't know him.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,582 posts)
7. How about "These chicks are our natural enemy"
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:13 PM
Sep 2017

(referring to feminists in the '70s)? “These chicks are our natural enemy,” he wrote in 1970, ordering a hit piece in his magazine on feminists. “What I want is a devastating piece that takes the militant feminists apart. They are unalterably opposed to the romantic boy-girl society that Playboy promotes.” https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/sep/28/hugh-hefner-playboy-founder-91-dark-side

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,582 posts)
9. So everybody who calls himself a Democrat
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:24 PM
Sep 2017

is entitled to objectify women and regard them as useful only if beautiful and willing to fuck him, as long as he doesn't vote Republican?

I don't think so. Sorry, Democrats should have some standards too, and one of them is to not be a sexist pig like Hefner.

And, by the way, Donald the Pussy-Grabber has intermittently called himself a Democrat, too.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
14. Usually agree with you, TVO, but Hefner was a product of his times, just as,
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:51 PM
Sep 2017

in a very different way, Steinem was.

Imo, suggesting that people who point out that huge reality might support Hefner's very antiquated 1950s-1960s sexual attitudes is very inappropriate.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,582 posts)
15. Except for the fact that he never shed his antiquated attitudes,
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:57 PM
Sep 2017

and neither did a lot of other men who still indulge in the Playboy fantasy of having unfettered access to beautiful, compliant women to have unlimited sex with. See also Donald "Pussy Grabber" Trump.

 

Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
22. Only if they want to be....
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:14 PM
Sep 2017
beautiful, compliant women to have unlimited sex with. Just as a woman has a right to choose to abortion or birth control.

The Hefiner hate is shared by some on the right as well as some on the left. And please, don't group all men with Trump.
 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
23. Are you saying that men should not fantasize about having sex with beautiful women?
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:15 PM
Sep 2017

Good luck with that.

Squinch

(50,909 posts)
27. This nonsense reply is beneath you. You know that's not what the poster is saying,
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:24 PM
Sep 2017

and this is the specious argument of someone who has no better position than to put words in others' mouths.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
46. I think it's a legitimate debate
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:50 PM
Sep 2017

People have different perspectives on this sort of thing. Some people think magazines like Playboy are inherently problematic and others don't. I didn't mean to put words in anyone's mouth - that's why I worded my reply as a question.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
53. Fair enough
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 05:44 PM
Sep 2017

I understand the eye-roll. It was a bit of a loaded question. Maybe it would've been better to pose it this way: Would you think less of a person if you found out that they privately watched pornography? That is to say, assuming they treated you with respect at all times - would the fact of viewing pornography on its own be a negative?

Squinch

(50,909 posts)
62. How about you go back to post 15 and read it like Velveteen Ocelot might
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:45 PM
Sep 2017

have a point, and an important one, and not get sidetracked by the, "Oh shit, the feminists want my porn!" knee jerk nonsense.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
65. OK
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:15 PM
Sep 2017

Having re-read that post, I do think there is a valid point made; however I am trying to provide a counterpoint that may be worth at least some consideration. Namely that engaging in such fantasies is not necessarily antiquated and can usually co-exist with men treating women with respect in real life.

Is there an inherent problem with a person having a sexual fantasy about another person that they don't know, based solely on their appearance? I ask that question in earnest - I think it's at least worthy of a discussion. I would also assert that this is fairly common, even today, and even among good people.

wryter2000

(46,023 posts)
35. I'm saying
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:17 PM
Sep 2017

Men should treat beautiful women, and all women, as human beings, not as sex toys created for men's gratification. Most of the men on this board don't have any problem with that concept.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
45. The fantasy is separate from reality, though
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:45 PM
Sep 2017

That is what makes it a fantasy.

I think that most men are perfectly capable of treating all women as human beings but also indulging in sexual fantasies (same for women, of course).

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
77. Another inaccurate inference to have something... anything to argue against.
Thu Oct 5, 2017, 02:24 PM
Oct 2017

Another petulant, biased and inaccurate inference to have something... anything to argue against.

Good luck with that, indeed.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
76. You're certainly moving your initial goalposts wider and wider as the conversation grows.
Thu Oct 5, 2017, 02:23 PM
Oct 2017

You're certainly moving your initial goalposts wider and wider as the conversation grows.

I get it though... I'd call anti-feminism a mere "purity pony" as well too if my bias depended on it.

 

Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
20. jodymarie aimee, I totally agree. I am 70 and remember the time period very well.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:07 PM
Sep 2017

There is way too much misguided anger.

 

jodymarie aimee

(3,975 posts)
24. when they get like this, they sound like Republicans
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:20 PM
Sep 2017

hate hate hate...without knowing all the facts.....so to them JFK and LBJ were also bad guys?? I am 66 and was a Berkeley hippie, and am also survivor of DA, and I work for the DEMs every single day. Sadly, Americans are so far behind regarding sex.

 

Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
36. I went back to college and found this attitude prevelant in many, more so than main street America.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:21 PM
Sep 2017

Some need an outlet from being hurt and "Womens Studies" classes seem to foster the extremes. I think most of the extreme hostility comes from events that occurred in their personal lives and the classes pull it out.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,582 posts)
38. "Events that occurred in their personal lives" were real.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 03:21 PM
Sep 2017

The women's movement came about precisely because of the events that occurred in women's personal lives - events like harassment, pervasive discrimination and rape. During the '70s, during Playboy's heyday and before sexual harassment in the workplace became illegal, women had to tolerate some really unpleasant and degrading behavior from which there was no protection and no recourse. If you never had to experience it you won't understand why Hefner's "Playboy" mentality was and is so offensive.

Here's one event that occurred in my personal life, which contributed considerably to my loathing of Hefner and everything about the whole Playboy business: In the early '70s, I was recently married and had a lousy full-time job, while my then-husband was in grad school. We were really broke, so I looked around for an extra part-time job, and learned about a local restaurant/night club that was looking for cocktail waitresses, and the skinny was that you could earn really good tips. So I got myself hired right away, and they gave me my "uniform," which turned out to be a skimpy Playboy bunny-like costume. I was taken aback by this, and felt really foolish and uncomfortable in it, but we really needed the money and I figured I could put up with it for a few nights a week.

So I was sent out onto the floor to be trained in. The place was clearly trying to cultivate a Playboy Club ambience, although it wasn't actually a so-called "gentlemen's club." The clientele was mainly middle-aged men in polyester suits, accompanied for the most part by wives or girlfriends - but it was awful. Those guys took the Playboy mentality as far as they could with their clothes on; I managed to get a years' worth of 70s-era workplace sexual harassment packed into one evening. I could hardly take an order without being leered at, patted, groped, propositioned or otherwise hassled in a sexual way. And I was supposed to act like I enjoyed it. I guess if you were stuffed into a costume that was a cross between a corset and a bathing suit as a condition of your employment, it was presumed that it was perfectly OK to touch you anywhere and say anything to you. It was a completely degrading experience and I quit as soon as my first night was over. Some women were obviously willing to put up with it; I wasn't.

Compared to the experiences many other women have had and which helped form the ideas you found so offensive and extreme in your women's studies class, this was pretty minor stuff. But it sure opened my eyes to the attitudes some men had toward women in those days, and maybe still - that we are just meat, things that exist for their pleasure. Hefner and his Playboy were instrumental in bringing that crap mainstream, giving fat middle-aged men in leisure suits, as well as zitty, wanking teenagers, permission to treat women as objects.

So I don't give a crap about Hefner as a so-called civil rights hero. He was a sexist pig. Fuck him and the silk pajamas he slithered in on.

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
41. a lot of people are determined not to see anything wrong with the type of treatment you mentioned.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:29 PM
Sep 2017

so many people, both men and women, literally think that being a "bunny" is what women are for, so what's everybody complaining about? it is to your credit that you recognized it as wrong, and it is good for people to hear that not every woman thinks being a bunny is a good thing.

Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #38)

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
42. most people are not all good or all bad; it is you who sounds like a repub by insisting that everyt
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:32 PM
Sep 2017

everything is black/white, either/or. when people do good, they are good; when they do bad, they are bad. i'm able to differentiate between the two.

SharonClark

(10,014 posts)
72. No, they don"t sound like Republicans. They sound like people who are aware of how women are
Sun Oct 1, 2017, 01:06 AM
Oct 2017

objectified and don"t like it. And maybe they think the pill did more for women's sexual liberation that Hefner did. Silly aren't they?

no_hypocrisy

(46,019 posts)
25. Hefner was a very complicated man whose choices
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:20 PM
Sep 2017

seem incongruent in an amalgam. I will criticize where appropriate and give him credit likewise.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
29. He held some very progressive positions on a number of issues.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:27 PM
Sep 2017

And the negative responses to your post are interesting and revealing. (And yes, I did intend revealing as humor.)

Demsrule86

(68,456 posts)
59. What is revealing is some think the way Heffner treated women was just fine...he was a pig.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:38 PM
Sep 2017

I have nothing but disgust for him.

delisen

(6,042 posts)
64. well, Hitler did bring Germany the Volkswagen
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:58 PM
Sep 2017

The automobile of the the "Masses, the Volk, the "Working Class

Demsrule86

(68,456 posts)
74. I do not...his misogyny over shadows any good he did.
Thu Oct 5, 2017, 02:18 PM
Oct 2017

What if a KKK guy gave to a charity...or supported a $15.00 wage...could you appreciate that? Same thing.

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
39. it really is not either/or. he did some good and he did some bad. it is a false choice to suggest
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:21 PM
Sep 2017

that it must be one or the other.

Blue_Adept

(6,393 posts)
49. Very few people are. Which is why the calls of him being an ultimate evil
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 05:24 PM
Sep 2017

or just one thing as well as the numerous joyful moments in his death are just disturbing to see around these parts.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,582 posts)
51. "Ultimate evil" is a bit extreme. I'll save that for Donald Trump.
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 05:34 PM
Sep 2017

Last edited Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)

But calling him a sexist who objectified women for his pleasure and profit - maybe not so extreme. I'm not joyful about his death but I'm not losing sleep over it either (in fact, I thought he was already dead). I do wish he had paid as much attention to the civil rights and full humanity of women as he did to other causes.

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
63. Would you call him a progressive if he was as much of a racist as he was a misogynist?
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:48 PM
Sep 2017

If he kept black people in a virtual petting zoo at the mansion?

liberalhistorian

(20,814 posts)
40. Yes, he was, indeed, an activist
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 04:22 PM
Sep 2017

in women's exploitation.

I do agree that he was visionary and activist in civil rights matters, but I wish he'd extended that to women as well.

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
61. He was a pimp. He was that kind of civil rights "activist."
Sat Sep 30, 2017, 07:43 PM
Sep 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/28/hugh-hefner-pimp-sue-playboy-mansion

The accounts of the “privileged few” who made it into the inner sanctum of the 29-room Playboy mansion as wives/girlfriends/bunny rabbits are quite something. In Hefner’s petting zoo/harem/brothel, these interchangeable blondes were put on a curfew. They were not allowed to have friends to visit. And certainly not boyfriends. They were given an “allowance”. The big metal gates on the mansion that everyone claimed were to keep people out of this “nirvana” were described by one-time Hefner “girlfriend no 1” Holly Madison in her autobiography thus: “I grew to feel it was meant to lock me in.”

The fantasy that Hefner sold was not a fantasy of freedom for women, but for men. Women had to be strangely chaste but constantly available for the right price. Dressing grown women as rabbits – once seen as the height of sophistication – is now seen as camp and ironic. There are those today who want to celebrate Hefner’s contribution to magazine journalism, and I don’t dispute that Playboy did use some fantastic writers.

Part of Hefner’s business acumen was to make the selling of female flesh respectable and hip, to make soft porn acceptable. Every man’s dream was to have Hefner’s lifestyle. Apparently. Every picture of him, right to the end, shows him with his lizard smirk surrounded by blonde clones. Every half-wit on Twitter is asking if Hefner will go to heaven when he already lived in it.

SNIP

If any of them left the mansion and were not available for club nights where they were paraded, they didn’t get their allowance. The sheets in the mansion were stained. There was to be no bickering between girlfriends. No condoms could be used. A nurse sometimes had to be called to Hefner’s “grotto” if he’d had a fall. Nonetheless, these young women would have to perform.

SNIP

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
78. No. He helped create this objectification culture we have today.
Thu Oct 5, 2017, 02:39 PM
Oct 2017

There's a difference between loosening sexual mores and objectifying women. He did much more of the latter

Demsrule86

(68,456 posts)
80. Plenty of folks pretended to be liberal during the 60's...it was fashionable.
Thu Oct 5, 2017, 02:57 PM
Oct 2017

You can't be an activist if you are a bigot or a sexist.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»JOY doing segment on Hefn...