General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJOY doing segment on Hefner and civil rights...and YES he was an activist
He was a true progressive and an icon.....bailed Dick Gregory out, among other things.....
malaise
(268,677 posts)Human beings are complex
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I'm wondering if some of these one-dimensional attitudes toward Hefner might be ascribed, not to just one-dimensional thinking, but at least in part to the priggish Reagan-era, 1978ish-2008, attitudes. Probably a bunch of people here grew up in that era.
Although all this narrow-minded mud is supposedly being slung only at Hefner, the women he's famous for displaying actually flew across the country and applied and competed for those "honors." For sure, if he personifies all these disgusting sexist whatevers, respect for equality means these women should also be considered guilty and disgusting. If he can't also be a civil rights activist, surely none of them can either.
Sorry, Darine, don't care how many death threats you got for this, to some you're just a "pimpee."
malaise
(268,677 posts)No grey allowed.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)He contributed to NARAL and Planned Parenthood.
Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)Whiskeytide
(4,459 posts)...Hefner. The magazine's run spanned more than 60 years. Our complex and often flawed society changed a lot in that time, and from my experience with the magazine - it did too. What was outrageous in 1955 was only a little controversial in 1976, and was downright quaint by 2001.
Playboy WAS different from other similar publications. It was pretty serious about politics (and leaned way left), contained interesting and often controversial interviews, reviewed books, movies and music, and much more. Sex/sexual fantasies was certainly the theme, but the magazine had a "take" on life that was more than just sex and naked women.
Was it damaging for women? Good question. I understand and agree with the arguments that, in some ways, it was (sexual objectification, anti-feminism, self image/body shaming, etc...), and I understand and agree with the arguments that it sometimes was not (pro-choice, anti-sexual assault, etc...).
On the other hand, was it a beneficial advocate for left-leaning politics, race relations, and LGBT rights? I think clearly yes.
Complex certainly fits.
Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)
JonLP24 This message was self-deleted by its author.
jodymarie aimee
(3,975 posts)talk to the folks who did.
Response to jodymarie aimee (Reply #4)
JonLP24 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)deciding an elephant cutout was shaped just like a tree trunk or snake might be an opinion, but that wouldn't make it a very accurate one.
I overall had a great distaste for Hefner, and his daughter, I even read Steinem's unflattering book, but I would never get so carried away as to villify him as a pimp, "high class" (can there be such a thing?) or any other.
Response to Hortensis (Reply #10)
JonLP24 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Pimping is a real thing, the selling of other people's sexual services. Pornography is also real.
You do no good for the victims of both when you misuse these words to mean far less than the tragedies they typically involve in the real world.
And, by the way, I really don't think Steinem would appreciate your characterization of her as being pimped.
Response to Hortensis (Reply #16)
JonLP24 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)or no clothes and displayed to men. Got it.
You should read her magazine article (not book, in this case). It was really heavy on just de-glamming the bunny clubs and describing how hard the waitresses worked and in what uncomfortable costumes. I don't think she'd approve of your characterizing the women she worked with as letting themselves be pimped either.
Response to Hortensis (Reply #21)
JonLP24 This message was self-deleted by its author.
True_Blue
(3,063 posts)'I called Hugh Hefner a pimp, he threatened to sue. But thats what he was'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/28/hugh-hefner-pimp-sue-playboy-mansion
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,582 posts)to one-half of the population - the female half. He was a sexual predator who actively opposed the efforts of feminists. https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/hugh-hefner-was-a-feminist-if-you-believe-feminism-is-pretty-women-having-sex-with-you/2017/09/28/215885fe-a465-11e7-ade1-76d061d56efa_story.html?utm_term=.677da86bdd22
jodymarie aimee
(3,975 posts)and by that I mean direct quotes. Not easy- to- slide- into stereotyping...You guys didn't know him.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,582 posts)(referring to feminists in the '70s)? These chicks are our natural enemy, he wrote in 1970, ordering a hit piece in his magazine on feminists. What I want is a devastating piece that takes the militant feminists apart. They are unalterably opposed to the romantic boy-girl society that Playboy promotes. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/sep/28/hugh-hefner-playboy-founder-91-dark-side
jodymarie aimee
(3,975 posts)so was he...put your purity pony out to pasture. It is 2017.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,582 posts)is entitled to objectify women and regard them as useful only if beautiful and willing to fuck him, as long as he doesn't vote Republican?
I don't think so. Sorry, Democrats should have some standards too, and one of them is to not be a sexist pig like Hefner.
And, by the way, Donald the Pussy-Grabber has intermittently called himself a Democrat, too.
50 Shades Of Blue
(9,919 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)in a very different way, Steinem was.
Imo, suggesting that people who point out that huge reality might support Hefner's very antiquated 1950s-1960s sexual attitudes is very inappropriate.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,582 posts)and neither did a lot of other men who still indulge in the Playboy fantasy of having unfettered access to beautiful, compliant women to have unlimited sex with. See also Donald "Pussy Grabber" Trump.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)SharonClark
(10,014 posts)Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)The Hefiner hate is shared by some on the right as well as some on the left. And please, don't group all men with Trump.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Good luck with that.
Squinch
(50,909 posts)and this is the specious argument of someone who has no better position than to put words in others' mouths.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)People have different perspectives on this sort of thing. Some people think magazines like Playboy are inherently problematic and others don't. I didn't mean to put words in anyone's mouth - that's why I worded my reply as a question.
Squinch
(50,909 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I understand the eye-roll. It was a bit of a loaded question. Maybe it would've been better to pose it this way: Would you think less of a person if you found out that they privately watched pornography? That is to say, assuming they treated you with respect at all times - would the fact of viewing pornography on its own be a negative?
Squinch
(50,909 posts)have a point, and an important one, and not get sidetracked by the, "Oh shit, the feminists want my porn!" knee jerk nonsense.
Having re-read that post, I do think there is a valid point made; however I am trying to provide a counterpoint that may be worth at least some consideration. Namely that engaging in such fantasies is not necessarily antiquated and can usually co-exist with men treating women with respect in real life.
Is there an inherent problem with a person having a sexual fantasy about another person that they don't know, based solely on their appearance? I ask that question in earnest - I think it's at least worthy of a discussion. I would also assert that this is fairly common, even today, and even among good people.
Squinch
(50,909 posts)wryter2000
(46,023 posts)Men should treat beautiful women, and all women, as human beings, not as sex toys created for men's gratification. Most of the men on this board don't have any problem with that concept.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is what makes it a fantasy.
I think that most men are perfectly capable of treating all women as human beings but also indulging in sexual fantasies (same for women, of course).
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Another petulant, biased and inaccurate inference to have something... anything to argue against.
Good luck with that, indeed.
Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)True_Blue
(3,063 posts)leftstreet
(36,097 posts)TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)SharonClark
(10,014 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)You're certainly moving your initial goalposts wider and wider as the conversation grows.
I get it though... I'd call anti-feminism a mere "purity pony" as well too if my bias depended on it.
Squinch
(50,909 posts)50 Shades Of Blue
(9,919 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,307 posts)Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)There is way too much misguided anger.
jodymarie aimee
(3,975 posts)hate hate hate...without knowing all the facts.....so to them JFK and LBJ were also bad guys?? I am 66 and was a Berkeley hippie, and am also survivor of DA, and I work for the DEMs every single day. Sadly, Americans are so far behind regarding sex.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)Some need an outlet from being hurt and "Womens Studies" classes seem to foster the extremes. I think most of the extreme hostility comes from events that occurred in their personal lives and the classes pull it out.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,582 posts)The women's movement came about precisely because of the events that occurred in women's personal lives - events like harassment, pervasive discrimination and rape. During the '70s, during Playboy's heyday and before sexual harassment in the workplace became illegal, women had to tolerate some really unpleasant and degrading behavior from which there was no protection and no recourse. If you never had to experience it you won't understand why Hefner's "Playboy" mentality was and is so offensive.
Here's one event that occurred in my personal life, which contributed considerably to my loathing of Hefner and everything about the whole Playboy business: In the early '70s, I was recently married and had a lousy full-time job, while my then-husband was in grad school. We were really broke, so I looked around for an extra part-time job, and learned about a local restaurant/night club that was looking for cocktail waitresses, and the skinny was that you could earn really good tips. So I got myself hired right away, and they gave me my "uniform," which turned out to be a skimpy Playboy bunny-like costume. I was taken aback by this, and felt really foolish and uncomfortable in it, but we really needed the money and I figured I could put up with it for a few nights a week.
So I was sent out onto the floor to be trained in. The place was clearly trying to cultivate a Playboy Club ambience, although it wasn't actually a so-called "gentlemen's club." The clientele was mainly middle-aged men in polyester suits, accompanied for the most part by wives or girlfriends - but it was awful. Those guys took the Playboy mentality as far as they could with their clothes on; I managed to get a years' worth of 70s-era workplace sexual harassment packed into one evening. I could hardly take an order without being leered at, patted, groped, propositioned or otherwise hassled in a sexual way. And I was supposed to act like I enjoyed it. I guess if you were stuffed into a costume that was a cross between a corset and a bathing suit as a condition of your employment, it was presumed that it was perfectly OK to touch you anywhere and say anything to you. It was a completely degrading experience and I quit as soon as my first night was over. Some women were obviously willing to put up with it; I wasn't.
Compared to the experiences many other women have had and which helped form the ideas you found so offensive and extreme in your women's studies class, this was pretty minor stuff. But it sure opened my eyes to the attitudes some men had toward women in those days, and maybe still - that we are just meat, things that exist for their pleasure. Hefner and his Playboy were instrumental in bringing that crap mainstream, giving fat middle-aged men in leisure suits, as well as zitty, wanking teenagers, permission to treat women as objects.
So I don't give a crap about Hefner as a so-called civil rights hero. He was a sexist pig. Fuck him and the silk pajamas he slithered in on.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)so many people, both men and women, literally think that being a "bunny" is what women are for, so what's everybody complaining about? it is to your credit that you recognized it as wrong, and it is good for people to hear that not every woman thinks being a bunny is a good thing.
Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #38)
Post removed
DLevine
(1,788 posts)tells me all I need to know about you.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It makes me sick that any progressive would tolerate this bullshit, let alone praise it.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)everything is black/white, either/or. when people do good, they are good; when they do bad, they are bad. i'm able to differentiate between the two.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)It's about women being presented as playthings.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)objectified and don"t like it. And maybe they think the pill did more for women's sexual liberation that Hefner did. Silly aren't they?
no_hypocrisy
(46,019 posts)seem incongruent in an amalgam. I will criticize where appropriate and give him credit likewise.
Squinch
(50,909 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And the negative responses to your post are interesting and revealing. (And yes, I did intend revealing as humor.)
Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)I have nothing but disgust for him.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)delisen
(6,042 posts)The automobile of the the "Masses, the Volk, the "Working Class
Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)What if a KKK guy gave to a charity...or supported a $15.00 wage...could you appreciate that? Same thing.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)that it must be one or the other.
Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)or just one thing as well as the numerous joyful moments in his death are just disturbing to see around these parts.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,582 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 30, 2017, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)
But calling him a sexist who objectified women for his pleasure and profit - maybe not so extreme. I'm not joyful about his death but I'm not losing sleep over it either (in fact, I thought he was already dead). I do wish he had paid as much attention to the civil rights and full humanity of women as he did to other causes.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)If he kept black people in a virtual petting zoo at the mansion?
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)liberalhistorian
(20,814 posts)in women's exploitation.
I do agree that he was visionary and activist in civil rights matters, but I wish he'd extended that to women as well.
Laffy Kat
(16,368 posts)Coventina
(27,054 posts)Nope.
Watchfoxheadexplodes
(3,496 posts)Time
He made a fortune off nude women period.
Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)pnwmom
(108,955 posts)The accounts of the privileged few who made it into the inner sanctum of the 29-room Playboy mansion as wives/girlfriends/bunny rabbits are quite something. In Hefners petting zoo/harem/brothel, these interchangeable blondes were put on a curfew. They were not allowed to have friends to visit. And certainly not boyfriends. They were given an allowance. The big metal gates on the mansion that everyone claimed were to keep people out of this nirvana were described by one-time Hefner girlfriend no 1 Holly Madison in her autobiography thus: I grew to feel it was meant to lock me in.
The fantasy that Hefner sold was not a fantasy of freedom for women, but for men. Women had to be strangely chaste but constantly available for the right price. Dressing grown women as rabbits once seen as the height of sophistication is now seen as camp and ironic. There are those today who want to celebrate Hefners contribution to magazine journalism, and I dont dispute that Playboy did use some fantastic writers.
Part of Hefners business acumen was to make the selling of female flesh respectable and hip, to make soft porn acceptable. Every mans dream was to have Hefners lifestyle. Apparently. Every picture of him, right to the end, shows him with his lizard smirk surrounded by blonde clones. Every half-wit on Twitter is asking if Hefner will go to heaven when he already lived in it.
SNIP
If any of them left the mansion and were not available for club nights where they were paraded, they didnt get their allowance. The sheets in the mansion were stained. There was to be no bickering between girlfriends. No condoms could be used. A nurse sometimes had to be called to Hefners grotto if hed had a fall. Nonetheless, these young women would have to perform.
SNIP
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)He objectified women.
People are complicated.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)There's a difference between loosening sexual mores and objectifying women. He did much more of the latter
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Degrading to women no matter what else he might have done.
Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)You can't be an activist if you are a bigot or a sexist.
obamanut2012
(26,045 posts)UGH.
He was a misogynistic, sexist creep.