For All who didn't support Hillary Clinton in the general...who complained about her on various

[Demsrule86]

websites and maybe even at the end voted for her grudgingly after turning others against her or perhaps voted for Stein...consider DACA and the suffering that will happen. You helped bring this about. But don't you know the parties are the same? (Sarcasm) Shame on you...oh and fuck Sarandon, Stein and Turner (no longer a Democrat as she has offered to support GOP candidates). Enjoy your privilege.

[cwydro]

1. I completely agree, but don't understand the point of these threads that pop up every week or so.

I doubt those who didn't support her are part of the DU community anymore, even if they were at one point.

[MoonRiver]

2. People are upset and want (need?) to vent.

Plus, this scenario could happen again. Remember that old moniker: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

[cwydro]

6. Well, I'm sure you're right about the need to vent.

Just seems like pissing in the wind, since we're all on the same side here.

Perhaps these type threads would be better directed to those asshats who defected to that vile site (you know which one I mean, I just won't mention their name).

[mdbl]

16. seriously, it's a little late to vent as if the election was next month

we need to get on with getting rid of trump.

[cwydro]

31. Bingo.

But still we see these endless lecturing threads that will reach NO ONE because those people are not here.

[radical noodle]

56. I wouldn't bet on that n/t

[Expecting Rain]

59. Me neither.

[sheshe2]

131. Yep. nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

162. Au contraire. They definitely are here. n/t

[xmas74]

163. I saw a few still lingering

They love to play the "what if" game.

[zentrum]

208. You said it. nt

[wasupaloopa]

27. We need to repeat this OP everyday until people learn that voting or not

voting has consequences. We did foresee the consequences of a Clinton loss and now it has become our reality.

Lets shout it to the hills and mountains. Not voting for Hillary enabled Trump.

[Demsrule86]

135. I think part of it is what is going on now...with Move On fielding a primary challenger to

Tim Ryan... this jeopardizes the seat and takes money that could be used to fight Trump and the GOP...and instead goes after Democrats. Have we learned nothing?

[rpannier]

190. You oppose primary challenges?

I'm going to disagree with you on that
Primaries are not a waste, they force the candidate to defend his or her positions
Part of the reason why so many representatives are unresponsive to their constituency (IMO) is that they feel completely safe.

[Demsrule86]

240. In 18 with the God Damned GOP in complete control...you better believe

I oppose wasting time and money on primary challengers which weakens the Democratic candidate for the general...we need to win and set our sites on Republicans not Democrats. It is this sort of bullshit that got us where we are today.

[summer_in_TX]

206. Primary challenges *may* strengthen the general election candidate sometimes

It certainly generates a lot more publicity for the candidate and forces them to sharpen their arguments, before the general electorate starts paying attention. If the candidates can keep the contest to one of ideas and qualifications and avoid the more damaging attacks on character, the primary winner comes out stronger than before.

The incumbent draws publicity even if they don't have a primary challenger. The challenger for the general election has the dickens of a time getting any media attention, in my experience. Media often doesn't bother to show up for news conferences, and it's often hard to find an event that will garner any media coverage.

Competition spices it up.

[MrsCoffee]

216. Wrong.

Show us proof of anytime it hasn't backfired spectacularly.

[Demsrule86]

238. No it doesn't...it wastes resources and time...and doesn't strengthen anyone.

[shanny]

17. fwiw:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/high-octane-women/201102/feel-venting-you-may-want-think-again-literally

[irisblue]

44. interesting article, thank you

[GeoWilliam750]

152. Thank you

[Demsrule86]

134. That is it exactly.

I am very upset.

[MoonRiver]

138. Me too.

[MFM008]

3. Shock at everything

Maggot is doing?

[haveahart]

4. It's a reminder about immature petulance and unrequited purity vs unselfish common sense and noble

compromise.

[Blue_true]

110. Exactly. nt

[haveahart]

272. It's as simple as this: Had Bernie won the nomination at least 99% of Hillary supporters would have

voted for him in the election. Sadly the opposite was not true and thus, we have Trump running and ruining the country.

[George II]

5. Yes they are still here.

[cwydro]

7. If that's the case, I hope they expose themselves soon.

And are then banned.

[BainsBane]

43. They do it all the time.

[stevenleser]

97. Just look at responses from folks trying to play the victim. There they are. nt

[DownriverDem]

42. Every Morning

Well if you woke up every morning knowing who helped put this dangerous fool (trump) in the White House & the repubs running the whole government, you would understand why many of us need to vent. How I feel is still with me & I can't shake it.

[lunamagica]

180. My feelings exactly

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

70. I agree. I don't get this constant

railing about Jill Stein here. Especially when you consider that Gary Johnson got some 3 million votes more than she did. Oddly enough, he's never chastised here. I wonder why.

[xmas74]

166. Because Johnson isn't the type of candidate

Someone here would vote for. Stein? Yep, a few here voted for her and now refuse to admit a mistake.

Johnson was a Libertarian. He didn't steal votes from the Left. Stein actively campaigned against Clinton, even going as far as to insinuate that Trump was a better candidate. And then she fed into the hysteria after the election and raised millionsin recount money, most of which didn't go towards what donors wanted.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

168. Even so, the votes for Stein

were never crucial. But in one or two states the votes for Johnson were.

What probably made an even bigger difference were people who didn't vote at all because they weren't about to vote for Donald and still could not bring themselves to vote for Hillary. I'm not necessarily justifying that, but again, it comes back to a completely irrational demonization of the million or so Jill Stein voters.

[xmas74]

169. The votes for Stein in a few states were crucial.

And I'll demonize Stein as is deserved. She knew what she was doing.

[revmclaren]

174. Not only that...

People who voted for Stein in 'safe' states, many times shared their venom and lies about Clinton on social media that swayed friends and other voters in battle ground states. This is why the message MUST be repeated over and over that no votes and write in votes must never happen again.

[LonePirate]

77. Yes, they are still part of the DU community. Some are even group hosts.

[sheshe2]

132. And on jury duty.

[yardwork]

79. I see posters here every day who proudly pledged never to vote for Hillary.

They are here, and they are constantly sniping at Democratic candidates.

It's happening again.

We're headed to another loss in 2018 because our candidates are being unfairly maligned, smeared, and misrepresented.

[xmas74]

167. I've been here for nearly fifteen years.

I'm a proud Dem. I held my head high in 2008,2012 and 2016 because I was so, so very proud of our candidates. As a proud Dem I'm tired of seeing our candidates battered, of reading comments bragging about how proud they are to not vote for a woman whose done more for this country than they ever will.
Honestly? Ban 'em.

[lunasun]

101. Some are still posting here

[Demsrule86]

133. I have been gone and this is my first...I was just so angry when I heard that 45 was going to end

DACA. My kids went to school with young people who will be affected in Georgia...most don't even speak the language. They are American kids...to send them back to a land they never is horrible and those who enable Dumpy caused this be they on the right or on the left (Stein voters especially). Been gone all day...was surprised at the response.

[Skittles]

159. because people need to be reminded

WHO THEY VOTE FOR OR DON'T VOTE FOR *MATTERS*

[fleabiscuit]

176. It's sort of like Antifa; never again. nt

[CrispyQ]

8. What is the point of this thread? Who on DU didn't support HRC in the general? -nt

[haveahart]

9. You may be surprised if truthful numbers were given. Lots of folks troll here. It's one of the

most informative sites in social media. It attracts all kinds of people.

[NJCher]

10. projection

the reason for blame is the person feels bad about what's happening, but also feels guilty for some reason or another. Perhaps they think they didn't help enough in the general election, or whatever--doesn't matter what exactly it is. Blaming helps them psychologically. It gives them relief from the bad feelings they are experiencing.

If you don't believe me, look it up yourself.

Blaming others takes the responsibility off themselves.


Cher

[MrsCoffee]

12. Nope.

People can be righteously pissed off at the behavior and action of others without feeling guilty themselves. Especially in a situation like this.

Look it up.

[NJCher]

15. sorry, but you're wrong

I have been watching for months, and just like clockwork, every time Trump pulls some extraordinarily outrageous move, you will get a "blame" post. If the poster genuinely felt bad, all they would have to do is say they feel bad. Nope, nope, nope; they are undergoing psychological stress in a dysfunctional way.

Read up on it and then come back and try to tell me. Google is your friend.

Furthermore, I would go another step and say that no effective communicator would ever engage in blame. It is confrontational and thus never accepted. Have you ever once--ever---gone through these blame threads and seen anyone post that they're wearing a hair shirt?

They are posts driven by the psychological needs of the poster. As such, I'm not sure what purpose they serve in a discussion forum, but I am sure they will continue for quite some time. This won't be the last of them, of that I am certain.


Cher

[MrsCoffee]

28. Oh good lord.

I read it on the internet, it must be true.

Your assignment of motive is rude.

[NJCher]

105. where does it say I read it on the internet?

eom

[G_j]

33. true

and that ship has sailed. Why not live in the present, and deal with with the immediate situation?

[KTM]

73. +1

Theres a lot of truth in this post, thanks for putting that out there.

[R B Garr]

82. This is a board for Democrats. Do you have anything to offer about third party people

who regret their decisions to help an ignorant con man get into the White House? Maybe describe some first-hand accounts you have or have read of people who regret their decision and how they were lulled into believing that Democrats won't do anything for them. How bad do they feel? Is it genuinely feeling bad? Do they realize now that they were lied to? What is their dysfunctional psychology stress?

Some examples, please. Maybe we can help those people. LOL JPR, though. I'm talking about real-life, reality-based folks who now see what damage throwing their votes away has caused.

[NJCher]

171. can't help you there

I can't say as I've seen that. I think there was a lot of anger about Bernie being cheated, but the blame threads on that have not continued, as far as I am able to observe.


Cher

[R B Garr]

175. Hillary got more votes than any of her competitors, and that's a fact.

So no wonder there are no threads about anyone being "cheated." That would not be a reality-based phenom, and isn't whining that someone was "cheated" a form of a blame game you are complaining about?

Bottom line is that Democrats/Hillary voters comprised a majority of United States voters and they don't have psychological problems because of who they supported. It's beyond absurd to insinuate that about tens of millions of people you don't know and will never meet.

[NJCher]

258. thinking error

don't project that on the whole of Hillary supporters. I'm only talking about the ones who feel the need to blame.

As far as the other thinking error goes, it's hard to say because Bernie never got the chance to be the actual candidate.


Cher

[R B Garr]

266. It's a fact that Hillary got more votes than her competitors.

Nothing was projected on to her supporters other than the fact that they comprised the clear majority. Three to four million in the respective campaigns. Fact.

That would make you the one with the thinking errors. Bernie got fewer votes, and second place doesn't advance. Reality.

[NJCher]

267. Bernie was cheated out of the opportunity

that is why it is difficult to say. Who knows what would have happened had that not been the case. That is why you have a thinking error.


Cher

[R B Garr]

268. Bernie wasn't cheated out of anything.

But they do love those conspiracies at that other site. Hillary beat both competitors by millions. I have to laugh at the thinking error comment in light of your state of denial.

[NJCher]

269. call it what you want

I am not trying to convert you. I am just telling you that millions of people believe that Donald Trump would not be in the White House had Bernie been the nominee. No one is trying to convince you. Just be aware that this point of view is held by millions of people.


Cher

[R B Garr]

271. Donald Trump also thinks he won the popular vote.

Millions of people think all kinds of conspiracies.

[NJCher]

273. yeah, but tiny hands is nuts

It would be difficult to say the millions of people who think Bernie was cheated are insane. Too many people saw close up what happened, and a large number of those people are young. That is what "the system" taught young people who got involved in the political system, most of them for the first time.

For every action there is a reaction. There will be an accounting for this and it will come from that generation.



Cher

[R B Garr]

274. Excuse me, but it's also difficult to say that millions of people who voted for Clinton

are insane, as well. Everything you mention looks like projection on your part when you look at your post #15 about "psychological stresses" and the "blame game". Your comments are literally not reality based. You comment on a "blame game," but your posts are 100% a blame game, so apparently that means "psychological stresses" by your own definition. The "system" is also the reality of our political process. Reality is that more people voted for Clinton, so she advanced. Bernie wasn't cheated of anything, as he obviously needed the Democratic party to run on, so he saw the benefits of gaining name recognition using the Democrats.

I'm sure that young people will also realize that fighting against good Democrats won't get them anywhere. The young people who voted for Nader have to be pushing 40 now, and look what they lost in Al Gore. Al Gore is all over the news now with his ground-breaking climate change agenda. Voting third party has not gotten anyone anything -- ever. Young people can see that.

[NJCher]

275. re-read my post #258

I have already addressed that issue with you. I clearly stated in that post that that I was only referring to the few who blame.

This latest comment from you shows me that you're not capable of carrying forward on an argument because you can't remember what was already said. I shall, therefore, no longer spend any of my time responding to you.


Cher

[R B Garr]

276. You are also blaming, so what does that make you?

That was the point. Every single post of yours was blaming. I don't see that level of sour grapes unless I visit JPR.

[KTM]

181. Some people get what you're putting down....

Others not so much. I think you are spot on.

[stevenleser]

188. No YOU are wrong and it is easy to point out why

If someone shoots a person in the stomach, the relatives of the shot person will feel anger toward the person who shot their relative. Anytime that person experiences discomfort from their wound, they will feel anger again towards the person who shot their relative. Even relatives 3000 miles away and had nothing to do with the assault would feel that way.

That is the analogy to this situation.

The people who did not vote for Hillary caused the wound here. Many of us are angry at them. Each time that wound manifests itself in a different way, we are again angry at those people.

This is normal human behavior.

[Frances]

13. Consequences

I personally feel that the people who did their best to put down Hillary should be reminded that they are responsible for the consequences of their actions
I feel the same way about people who convinced others not to vote for Gore
I think those people should visit soldiers in vet hospitals once a week because we would never have gone into Iraq if Gore had been president

[NJCher]

21. do you realize you're becoming the thought police?

It is not for you to decide how people experience the consequences of their actions. Let it go. It's not worth the burden.

Seriously, you will feel a lot better if you stop engaging in blame.



Cher

[Squinch]

62. If that poster is becoming thought police, then so are you. You're doing the same thing.

And no. It's not thought police. It's expressing an opinion.

That thought police bullshit is ridiculous. It's just another way of saying, "I feel threatened when you express your opinion."

[stevenleser]

111. It absolutely IS for us to decide how people experience the consequences of their actions.

If you hurt other people by your actions, you better believe you can expect other people to let you know about it.

[Frances]

280. Thanks for this sensible post

I thought everyone knew that actions have consequences

[fallout87]

104. Amen

We have midterms coming up. We need not forget what happened in 2016 and that it could happen again.

[mia]

20. "Blaming others takes the responsibility off themselves." Often true.

Reminds me of a Psychology course in "Attribution Theory" from long ago.
http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/attribution_theory.htm

We all have a need to explain the world, both to ourselves and to other people, attributing cause to the events around us. This gives us a greater sense of control. When explaining behavior, it can affect the standing of people within a group (especially ourselves).

When another person has erred, we will often use internal attribution, saying it is due to internal personality factors. When we have erred, we will more likely use external attribution, attributing causes to situational factors rather than blaming ourselves. And vice versa. We will attribute our successes internally and the successes of our rivals to external ‘luck’. When a football team wins, supporters say ‘we won’. But when the team loses, the supporters say ‘they lost’.

Our attributions are also significantly driven by our emotional and motivational drives. Blaming other people and avoiding personal recrimination are very real self-serving attributions. We will also make attributions to defend what we perceive as attacks. We will point to injustice in an unfair world. People with a high need to avoid failure will have a greater tendency to make attributions that put themselves in a good light.

We will even tend to blame victims (of us and of others) for their fate as we seek to distance ourselves from thoughts of suffering the same plight....

[seaglass]

51. And perhaps people who still post at JPR will never have a clue about the distrust and anger

that exists due to the betrayal of supposed allies.

[Demsrule86]

212. That is correct. I could not believe supposed progressives would enable Trump.

b

[Fantastic Anarchist]

164. I think you nailed it.

I personally voted for Clinton, but really hated doing so. I also think blaming Jill Stein or her voters is misplaced. But I'm probably a tiny minority so ...

[m-lekktor]

22. some might have only 'grudgingly" supported her though!!

that isn't good enough!

[Autumn]

29. It's a purity thing. Even if you voted for the nominee in the GE the fact that you supported

the other person in the primaries deems you not pure enough to be here.

[clu]

36. apparently there shouldn't be any criticism of policy

allowed during a primary either. good luck that is a tall order

[SusanaMontana41]

281. I too am stunned by some of these posts.

Don't have Democratic primaries because they pose risks to Democrats?

[LiberalLovinLug]

57. BINGO!

[melman]

34. Well according to the OP

you're responsible even if you did support HRC...but just didn't do it enthusiastically enough. Or something.

[Generic Other]

122. Like not crying loud enough at King Jong Il's funeral

[beam me up scottie]

165. LMAO! Perfect.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

184. .

[SusanaMontana41]

217. Yup. It is just. that. silly.

I don't see how this is helpful.

[cwydro]

35. Agree.

There's one of these threads every few days. It's just silly.

If there are trolls here, I would imagine they take pleasure in our pain.

We need to move on.

[Demsrule86]

136. Wasn't aimed at DU just folks in general who went to websites (this one sometimes)

and Trashed the Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton...I doubt there are many of this sort here, but I remember the posts and some are still here.

[Weekend Warrior]

237. "What is the point of this thread?"

Seems pretty obvious. It's to tell the ignorant "both parties are the same" crowd to fuck off. Let those same morons know they are responsible for this.

Maybe I missed something. It really does seem that obvious.

[IronLionZion]

11. People who enabled Trump's election probably don't care about DACA

And there were several on the left who opposed Hillary specifically because of her immigration policies. Some of the DUers who opposed Hillary because of her work on the H-1b guest worker program might have even voted Trump, secretly. They've even expressed support for Trump's reforms in these areas.

And a significant portion of the DUers who believe Americans are white and brown people are immigrants, probably voted Trump to maintain their privilege. The idea of foreigners stealing jobs away from the more deserving has definitely hoodwinked a lot of suckers, and I'm sure we have a few on our side who fell for the deliberately divisive ratfucking that trolls have tried to sow here. Trumpster trolls online were constantly telling liberals to be outraged at Hillary for something or another, it was very transparent.

[crim son]

14. Who are you talking to?

DU has made it clear that no such people are welcome here.

[seaglass]

53. But they are here, so? n/t

[CanSocDem]

18. Not having a dog in this hunt, but...

...sitting here in Canada, looking in your front window, we are treated to all of your family squabbles.

You suggested in another thread that 'winning the election' was more important than 'advancing the cause of democracy', (a major topic of Naomi Klein whom you vehemently hate) and seem to be carrying on that theme with this thread.

Democrats have been in power; some very good ones. But "democracy" hasn't really advanced. You have made some small sociological progress but you are still ruled by Corporate America. They decide what is important for you.

Now you have a POTUS that neither party likes which kind of gives credence to that silly notion that, in this at least, they are simpatico. Maybe by the time Trump is finished, the population will be quite happy to go back to letting Corporate America pick the two candidates.


.

[mjvpi]

47. You nailed it.

Getting money out of politics is something every Demacrat agrees on, correct? Moving forward we need to find and support candidates who are committed to real change like DACA.

[ismnotwasm]

19. Off topic

But is JPR having technical difficulties? I'm seeing more and more people who are documented as not voting for Hillary ooze their way back here. I thought they were happy over "there"

[tiredtoo]

23. This should be posted on a rightwing site not here. EOM

[BainsBane]

45. The right supports Trump

They don't oppose him.

[tiredtoo]

66. The right opposes the left.

All of them.

[BainsBane]

78. Left? What does that mean to you?

I define left in relation to Marxism, not Ayn Rand. I have trouble understanding how working to ensure a white supremacist regime is installed in the White House constitutes leftism. It seems to me when people vote in ways that show blatant disregard for the consequences on the poor and vulnerable, they forsake any claim to leftism. Leftism does not mean a myopic focus on self. It is not the politics of bourgeois entitlement, whereby those who have more than most of the nation and 99% or more of the world demand even more, only to act in ways to accede to that privilege. In fact, I call that the Vichy collaboration. People can invoke labels like left and progressive all day long. It doesn't' make it true. Actions are what define who we are. Fascism is as fascism does.

Besides, this is a Democratic website. The Democratic Party has never represented the left. It is only left in relation to the ultra-right wing GOP. There is a lot of talk of late about the "party of FDR." Even setting aside the fact FDR presided over Jim Crow and refused to act against widespread lynchings out of deference to White Southerners'; even setting aside the fact he was born to the aristocracy, worked as a Wall Street financier, and shored up capitalism, he and his party were not considered the left at the time. The Communist Party was the left. And the Communist party of the 1930s allied with the the capitalist states against the rise of fascism; they did not collaborate with fascism. They saw it for the evil it was.

Truthfully, the US has no left, and that is not accidental. The left was systematically arrested, deported, purged, and blacklisted. Anarcho-syndicalist labor leaders were rounded up and deported. Communists were rooted out and purged. That was done by post parties, back in the good old days those who claim to be left now want to return to--the same era in which the Democratic Party enforced Jim Crow, in which the segregationist South was solidly Democratic, when it was the party of Klan, Orval Faubus, and George Wallace.

[tiredtoo]

125. To me the left means Democratic party

There are varying degrees of Left and i am far left. Not green party left but Bernie left. I do support any and ALL Democratic candidates.

[PatrickforO]

24. Honestly, I don't see the need for these types of threads. Trump didn't win.

He was installed.

2.9 million more of us voted for Clinton than for Trump.

Voter suppression measures, courtesy of Republican governors and state legislatures are in full swing.

Russia hacked voter rolls in at least 38 states.

Russian paid trolls infiltrated social media, friending people in swing districts and swayed opinion in one of the most sophisticated psychological operations ever.

Republicans throughout Trump's campaign and throughout the party structure COLLUDED with a hostile foreign power to win this election and thus committed TREASON.

Please, we've got to be done blaming each other. Now is the time to come together and start talking to Americans everywhere about kitchen table issues. People everywhere in this country are worried about getting laid off. About losing their healthcare. About how to pay the bills and still send their kids to college. Seniors are worried because Ryan wants to privatize Social Security and voucherize Medicare. Rural hospitals are worried about having to close without Medicaid subsidies.

So, enough divisiveness.

[brush]

37. K&R

[solara]

83. Hear! Hear! and Thank You

You said it perfectly. Enough Divisiveness. We simply must come together and set aside the problems of the past and finally let go of our 'family' squabbles. Time may well be running out for We The People and we absolutely must do everything we can to get rid of the fascists who are grabbing hold of our country.

#DefendDACA. #SaveDACA #DefendDREAMers

#ImpeachTrump #ImpeachPence

[tiredtoo]

127. K&R EOM

[Baconator]

144. Popular vote in an American Presidential election is like Time of Possession in a Superbowl...

It's a fun stat but means jack squat when the other team has more points.

[PatrickforO]

205. Not if we get enough state legislatures to pass

the national popular vote legislation. http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/

There may be an effort in your state.

Then, the popular vote will equal the score.

[Baconator]

231. Then that's a different game with different rules...

As of right now, it doesn't matter.

[Iggo]

25. Keep fighting that primary!

[BainsBane]

41. It doesn't say a thing about the primary

Jill Stein and Donald Trimp didn't run in the Dem primary.

Good lord.

[Iggo]

87. Doesn't have to.

[BainsBane]

94. Because it isn't about the General Election

You may continue to exist in a time warp of 2015 to early 21016, but those DACA youth are suffering the consequences of the Trump administration.

[Iggo]

120. I know they're suffering.

I also know a DU anti-party-unity argument when I see it.

[treestar]

26. The one that the parties are the same

is just so obtuse. Can't believe it would be possible not to see the difference.

[DrDan]

30. do you think any of these folks are here on DU and reading this?

[seaglass]

54. Yes, one has even posted in this thread! n/t

[LonePirate]

88. Agreed. At least one posted in this thread.

[xmas74]

170. I saw that.

You'd think they'd slither back under their rock.

[Squinch]

63. Yep.

[LovingA2andMI]

32. This Thread Should Be Removed.....

As Fighting The Primary Is A Clear Violation of DU's Rules. Also, Where Is The EVIDENCE Nina Turner is supporting Republicans???

[mcar]

114. Stein did not run in the primary

This OP is clearly about the GE.

[Demsrule86]

137. This is about the general not the primary...as I specifically mention Stein.

Nice try though.

[BainsBane]

38. I wouldn't include the people who voted for her

Whether grudgingly or not. They did the right thing in the end.

[DonCoquixote]

277. thank you

some here seem to be angry because the vote did not come in the first ten minutes. We voted for her.

[DownriverDem]

39. Yep

I wake up every day knowing that politically naïve left leaners screwed us big time. 51,000 folks voted 3rd party in Michigan. How could they possibly be happy with trump et al?

[KG]

40. I lulz'd

again

[LiberalLovinLug]

46. DU is structured so that it is very very difficult for a RW troll to last long

Yet time and time again we see these inflammatory OPs with a clear intent to accuse a large community on DU, in a back handed way (what?..I wasn't talking about YOU)....those that supported Bernie in the primaries. Who the hell else are you talking to?


Its appalling

Its ridiculous

Its inflammatory

Its massively counter-productive, and any GOP strategist would be laughing their ass off and rubbing their hands in glee at disruptive OPs like this.

So every time Trump does another fucked up move, another OP will pop up insinuating that there are DUers who should be hanging their heads in shame. Even though 99% of Bernie supporters on here voted for Hillary.
You don't have the guts to post this where it should go...on a RW talk site, or even JPR, so you think you can vent on here by pissing off a lot of good people.

[Snotcicles]

75. +1

A lot of us Bernie supporters feel the reverse happened. That Bernie was a better candidate, had better approval numbers, less negative numbers and had a better shot at the tweeners. There were a lot of polls that predicted that Sanders would have crushed Trump, had he made it through the primaries. His popularity to this day bears that out. I supported Hillary unequivocally after she won the primaries. But when it comes to assigning blame for the final outcome, don't be so absolute because you don't KNOW what could have been.

[shanny]

48. LOL

[aikoaiko]

49. We shouldn't go down the road of Total Fidelity 24/7 or Eff Off.

Trump's own party had the Dump Trump movement and Ted Cruz stood up at the convention and said to vote your conscience, but Trump still won the electoral college. Let's drop the excuse.

Expecting total fidelity to the Democratic candidate from a majority of voting citizens in every word and action is unrealistic and counterproductive.

We can only make the case for their vote. It's on us.

[Squinch]

67. Right. Because "total fidelity to the Democratic candidate... in every word and action"

is what people are talking about here.

Except it isn't. Not even close.

In most elections there are two choices: a Democrat and a Republican. Which are you going to vote for? And if you vote for the Democrat, is that tantamount to total fidelity in every word and action? Why, no. Because that would be ridiculous.

Given the situation we find ourselves in only an idiot would consider himself to be put upon when others expect him to vote for the Democrat.

[aikoaiko]

76. But total fidelity is the apparent point of the OP (i.e., Its not enough to have voted for HRC)

DemsRule86 wrote: "For All who didn't support Hillary Clinton in the general...who complained about her on various websites and maybe even at the end voted for her grudgingly after turning others against her..."

That includes everyone who complained or otherwise didn't support HRC and voted for her because who knows what words or actions "turned others against her".

You wrote: "Given the situation we find ourselves in only an idiot would consider himself to be put upon when others expect him to vote for the Democrat." That was conventional wisdom in 2016 and it didn't work out well for us. I think its a bad plan for 2018 and 2020.

[Squinch]

106. That conventional wisdom in 2016 was absolutely correct. We are in the position we are in today

because of those who refused to see it.

What alternative are you suggesting? Are you not going to vote for the Democrat? Are you going to encourage others not to vote for a Democrat? Are you going to do things that split the Democratic vote.

Anyone who would even consider any of those actions is either a complete moron, or they are so entitled that they have become monstrous.

And no, total fidelity is not the point of the OP. The point of the OP is this: do not badmouth the Democratic candidates. Do not try to turn others against the Democratic candidates. Vote for the Democratic candidates. Because if we don't ALL do this, we end up with more of what we have today.

It has nothing to do with total fidelity, as you perfectly well know.

[Baconator]

141. I'm going to try to get a more electable candidate so the choice is easier for everyone else...

... come voting time.

[Squinch]

155. Gosh. A savior! Thank goodness you can single handedly bring everyone around to your

point of view. Which seems to boil down to "Democrats are doing everything wrong."

Let us know when you've got that done.

(But if everything we've been doing is so terrible, I'm wondering why you didn't perform your miracle before this...)

[Baconator]

192. You want to read that again...

... Delete and try again without the fallacies?

[Demsrule86]

139. I merely point out that there were those who discouraged others from voting for Sec. Clinton

by opining that she was the only 'choice'...but yada yada yada. I wish I had a dollar for every post I saw that said something like...not a fan of Hillary...and the emails blah blah...but I have to vote for her. Some who read those words may have stayed home or voted for Stein. And I see it now...with the primaries and the attacks on Democrats by our revolution and now Move On as well...and many here are upset because they can't trash Democrats here openly because they would if they could...this constant quest for purity results in attacks on Democrats and dampens enthusiasm for Democratic Candidates and the party.

[aikoaiko]

207. I saw those who posted complaints about HRC but said they would vote

and I found them to be important voices ultimately in support for HRC.

It seems to me that the whole point of your OP is that Trump is a horrible and malicious president and you didn't need to love HRC to vote for her because of what Trump is.

Well, that is the point of the very people who complained about her at DU, but said they would vote for her and yet you now blame them for her loss.

I think we, Democrats in general, and DU in particular, need to welcome those who don't love our candidate but will vote for her/him anyway especially if we support them.

I know we differ on the value of criticisms and complaints directed toward the party and our candidates.

[Demsrule86]

239. I believe such posts encourage others not to vote for her.

[Baconator]

50. This is why the last campaign was such a complete disaster...

There's the expectation that we should all just get in line and shut up because the alternative is so much worse.

[Plucketeer]

60. Had they just handed out

enough copies of the script, eh?

[StevieM]

61. Actually, we had a primary first that other candidates had every opportunity to win but didn't.

And HRC had an elaborate set of policy proposals that should have been very pleasing to progressives. A higher minimum wage, tuition assistance, worker retraining, tax hikes for the wealthy, universal affordable daycare. And this platform was all in line with the things she has stood for throughout her career.

[Baconator]

96. The primary was weak...

Ridiculously so...

O'Malley? Webb?

We reaped what we sowed by not giving it the effort it deserves.

Of course, the DNC claimed in court the other day that they don't have to even hold a primary and reserve the right to select who they want so...

There's that...

[StevieM]

126. That was a statement made to quickly be rid of a bogus lawsuit, not an admission of anything.

O'Malley was talked about as a future president for 15 years.

And anyone who wanted to enter was welcome to do so. HRC's early poll numbers made them decide not to. Nobody could have anticipated how badly the fake email scandal would have damaged her.

[Baconator]

129. The e-mail scandal was one thing among many...

... for the candidate and the party.

There are still serious fundamental flaws in how the future is being approached.

The only way to win is to figure out the identity of the party (something besides 'We aren't Trump / Republicans'), effective messaging and turning over leadership to a new generation.

At this point, almost two generations actually...

Until all of that happens, it's just gonna be more of the same.

Also, if spelling it out in clear legal terms is not enough to convince you that the party leadership will choose who wins then I don't know what to say.

They're telling you flat out and you don't believe them.

[StevieM]

151. There is nothing the leadership can do to pick the nominee and they have never tried.

Bernie would have been the nominee if he had gotten more votes. He couldn't get them. But he had every opportunity, and lots of money and volunteers.

The fake email scandal dominated the race and completely redefined HRC at the end of a distinguished career.

Hillary had the race won--decisively--until Comey rigged it at the end.

Our party has a fine identity. We push for things like universal health care, higher taxes on the wealthy, support for unions and affordable daycare. Most importantly, we are the party trying to fight climate change before it is too late.

It makes no sense to say that we cannot win if we don't embrace what Bernie Sanders stood for, or something like it. That sounds like Republicans saying that they lost because they weren't conservative enough--which is always their explanation for losing.

[Baconator]

191. Keep that attitude and enjoy Trump 2020...

You heard it here...

[clu]

211. did he have support of the DNC

nt

[KTM]

189. Lol.

Yeah, it was the poll numbers...

And nobody expected any scandals, right ?

[Squinch]

154. WTF?? The primary was weak? The primary was a primary! That's what they look like.

Yes, O'Malley, yes Webb.

And WHO didn't give it the effort it deserves? Lots of us spent a lot of shoe leather trying to counteract the people who seemed to need to disparage candidates and complain about the "strength" of the Democratic effort from outside and INSIDE the party.

[Squinch]

65. LOL! And after the primary that sentiment was absolutely correct. Because the alternative is

disgusting, and now here we are enduring that alternative because of all those people who were too pure to "get in line and shut up," or to say that another way, too pure to vote for the Democrat.

[yardwork]

81. The alternative WAS much worse. It was a binary choice and one was much, much worse.

If you didn't enthusiastically support the Democratic nominee, then you helped elect Trump.

Simple truth.

[Baconator]

98. I don't think you understand what generates enthusiasm...

Look at 2008 and 2012...

People were excited and motivated.

2016 was not that...

People were resigned...

[Squinch]

107. If, in any elections going forward, ANYONE demands that the Democratic candidate makes them

all tingly or they're not going to get out and vote, that person deserves every bit of disgust that voting Democrats have to throw at them.

If the misery being inflicted on millions of Americans is not enough generate someone's enthusiasm, they are simply too monstrously entitled to be satisfied.

If getting Republicans out of power doesn't motivate you, in the face of all the destruction the Republicans are wreaking, then you are lost.

[yardwork]

119. Thank you.

[Squinch]

150. I'm so sick of this pouty "They're not making me all excited to vote for you" bullshit

while people's worlds are being blown up under their feet.

[yardwork]

156. It's nauseating. Literally.

[Baconator]

123. I don't think folks demanded 'tingly'...

... but an overall good feeling would have sufficed.

Again, this is the same thing we've been talking about.

Our candidate doesn't have to be X, Y, and Z because the other guy is Satan incarnate. At best, you'll only win 50% of the time because the other guy is doing it too.

We are heading towards another round of elections and folks are going to make the exact same mistakes... again...

[Squinch]

149. Again, yes, the other guy IS Satan incarnate. Lives are being ruined by the

millions. And going forward no one has the excuse of not knowing that, and those who vote for Republicans or don't vote going forward are complicit in those epic levels of misery.

[Starry Messenger]

160. Amen.

[Demsrule86]

220. Thank you Squinch. That is exactly what I have been trying to say.

You said it so much more eloquently than I did.

[Demsrule86]

219. Look at 10 and 14 ;if we base voting on being excited and motivated only the GOP will win...

because they are motivated by winning period. In 10 some had a butt hurt about not getting single payer and there were vicious attacks against the president...even here. This led to a GOP sweep of the states (also a gerrymander) and a loss of the House which neutered President Obama for the rest of his term and the next term. We played defense. What a waste...imagine if we supported the president back then. In 14, we lost the Senate. Had we got out and voted it wouldn't have happened. But now, Obama was at his lowest poll numbers that I ever remember and again, he was abandoned by those who claim progressive status. We lost a damn SCOTUS seat for that one and now are stuck with Gorsuch for God knows how long. Time to stop waiting for perfection and purity and vote for the Democrat who is running in the election (even if you don't like him/her) or supposedly progressive voters can continue to punish Democrats for their lack of purity by enabling and electing Republicans. I often say I am a broken glass Democrat. I would crawl across broken glass to vote for the Democrat. I do not understand how thinking that Democrats should vote for Democrats and keep a truly evil party that now is busy normalizing white supremacy out of power and planning to send thousands of young people to their death with DACA is wrong and hurts anyone( quite the opposite in my opinion). I would vote for any Democrat before not voting or voting for any God damned third party candidate because that as the same as voting for a Republican. And I don't care what state you live in or how 'blue' it is. I believe in the party and refuse to be drawn into the' death by a thousand cuts game' played by some...where the party is attacked relentlessly and then those same folks opine that the Party is 'weak' and should do this or the other thing and then it begins again...the same self-defeating cycle which has allowed the GOP to attain power in every branch of government. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

[Baconator]

232. No one needs perfection...

We'd settle for pretty good...

[Demsrule86]

235. Sorry...until you settle for the Democrat regardless of your personal opinion and vote accordingly

for the courts, DACA, medicaid, social security, human rights...which means vote Democrat, we lose.

[Baconator]

245. I vote for people and policy...

The letter after the name comes after all of that...

[Demsrule86]

246. And that is why the Republicans own it all.

Are you advocating voting for non-Democrats? Because the letter after there name is a deal breaker for me if it is not a "D". This is Democratic Underground you know...not policy and people underground. And I would argue without a Democratic majority, people and policy as a criteria is useless...we had one of the best platforms ever...and since we lost it is meaningless. We have no chance of implementing anything progressive...and thousands of poor kids are about to be deported. Don't kid yourself, many are going to their deaths...so you ' criteria' doesn't work for me or those poor kids.

[Baconator]

247. The party doesn't get votes by default...

The party needs the right people and policies to earn votes.

The fact they didn't understand that is what led to 2016 and what's happening right now to all those kids.

[Demsrule86]

249. Really so the Democratic party has to earn your vote... and a GOP is just fine if you can't

vote for a perfect candidate? Why are you even here? Has it ever occurred to you that different people have different expectations and no candidate can meet them all? Vote for the Democrat...when all is said and done that is not too much to ask for from a self identified Democrat.

[Baconator]

251. Votes are earned...

Taking them for granted led to 2016 and Mr. Tiny Hands...

[Demsrule86]

254. Well those who held their votes hostage waiting for the perfect candidate own Mr.

Tiny hands and are culpable for the suffering of millions...fuck everyone of these shortsighted voters. I hope they suffer a million times more than those they thrre under the bus...by the way this site is about electing Democrats...not earning votes.

[Baconator]

257. Yet again... No one needs perfect... Most of us would settle for 'good enough'

[Demsrule86]

261. You and I differ on that...I settle for the candidate with the 'D' next to his/her name.

[Baconator]

263. Emphasis on the word 'settle'

[Demsrule86]

265. I used your words...anytime I am voting Democratic, I am please and proud...in Georgia often

there was no Democratic candidate...and I had to write one in...one plays with fire when helping elect GOP types by refusing to vote Democratic unless one is in "love" or some such thing.

[stevenleser]

121. That's often the case in Democratic elections. This wasnt that unusual.

What IS unusual is that a small group of folks was determined to cut off their nose to spite their face and didnt care who was impacted by that decision.

[Baconator]

124. I'd agree with that...

... but the question that follows is "What was it about the alternative that caused that aberration?"

[stevenleser]

186. Or more likely, what is it about this small group that caused them to think so aberrantly?

There are a few answers to that question. One of them is Russian intelligence driven agitprop.

Another is group think.

Another is an almost sociopathic lack of empathy for all the people who would be hurt by their actions.

[Baconator]

193. I'll say the same thing to you that I did to the other guy...

Keep that attitude and enjoy Trump 2020...

Russians, Comey etc.. They all played a part but frankly it shouldn't have been even close.

[stevenleser]

196. If those people are determined to act sociopathically that's on them

As is typical with folks trying to argue what you are arguing you are putting the onus on the wrong group of people to change.

[Baconator]

230. Do you want to win...

... or do you want to lose because you can't get off your high horse?

[stevenleser]

242. I will not be held hostage to people acting sociopathically. nt

[Baconator]

244. Good luck with that...

I'm sure the comfort of your moral superiority will console you as the world burns around you.

[stevenleser]

260. I always will. I don't live my life according to sociopaths wishes on any front. nt

[Baconator]

264. That's... honest I suppose...

[Demsrule86]

140. Yep it is worse and Trump proves that for sure but any GOP type can be expected to enact policies

that all Democrats hate...after a Dem candidate has been fielded and is the candidate get in line, shut up and vote for the them. The only alternative is a Republicans...and instead of going after sitting Democrats, how about trying to unseat a few GOP types and take the house instead.

[Baconator]

147. People think that voting for another party or withholding their vote...

... is the only way to get the change they want. Probably not even on a conscious level...

Most people vote on positions, policy etc... Things that are important to them. Guns, abortion, taxes, social issues, whatever...

The number voters who are dedicated heart and soul to the Democratic Party© regardless of candidate, policy and the like are pretty small.

I do think that many of the folks that we lost last time would come back to the party if they found something they liked in it.

[Demsrule86]

221. Well since they have a variety of must haves for any Democratic candidate...I doubt that would help.

You will never please everyone. If the Trump presidency, the courts the wars...and the threat of nuclear holocaust are not enough than they are lost...you vote for your candidate in a primary ...if he/she loses, then you vote for the Democratic candidate who won. And to your point, if we don't start dedicating heart and soul to the party than the GOP will continue to advance their agenda while we continue with a circular firing squad and lose important progressive policy going back to Roosevelt. Also, It is a catch 22 situation, because any presidential candidate who was left enough for most of the voters you are discussing could not win a general in what has become at best a center left country.

[Demsrule86]

248. Really, you know why'people' withhold their votes from Democrats?

Interesting. Such folks would doom or chances as they are mostly out of step with the electorate...and this is post is dangerously close to advocating not voting for Democrats in order to send a message...something I completely disagree with. When you vote for any candidate who is not a Democrats...you scream, I want a Republican to win.

[leftstreet]

52. What about people who didn't have Hillary bumper stickers

Imagine the many people who could have been reached

It's like just handing the election to Trump

[ecstatic]

55. They'll never own up to it or take responsibility. Nt

[Demsrule86]

142. It is true, but many of us know know who they are and see the same stuff now...the thread

about Kamela Harris is an example.

[Gothmog]

58. K&R

[Demsrule86]

143. Thanks!

[FairWinds]

64. DU has become home to relentless smears of progressives . .

in this case Nina Turner.

Posters here act as if the Dem Party establishment is
above criticism.

And that is nothing more than a recipe for more electoral disasters.

[BainsBane]

90. Yesterday you insisted that unifying Jill Stein is what mattered

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029546438#post135

I think it unfortunate that your conception of "progressive" doesn't extend to concern for the DACA kids but rests entirely with defending multi-millionaires like Stein and Turner, who has said she will use Our Revolution funds to support Republicans?

If the Democratic party can be criticized, why cant' criticism be levied toward Turner, Stein, and those who show continual disregard for the lives of the DACA youth and other marginalized Americans?

[Demsrule86]

222. Great post...I was cooking all day yesterday for a family party.

Thus, was able to check the threat only sporadically. This was a vent because I was heart sick about the DACA kids. We knew many in Georgia...I was just so angry. I was surprised to see the response. You say it so much better than I do.

[stevenleser]

91. Nina Turner and her ilk who followed her threw the dreamers under the bus.

Since these folks, who have no connection to Mexico and many can't speak Spanish well may get deported to Mexico because of the choices of a thoughtless few, Turner and her ilk can take the criticism.

[Demsrule86]

223. and yet they deserve it and more.

[Demsrule86]

145. If you don't vote for the Democratic candidate...you are not a Democrat or

even progressive in my opinion. Nina has said she will back Republicans. She is not a Democrat any more than Jill Stein is. And none of them are true progressives...they don't care about enacting progressive policy.

[FairWinds]

148. Ya know, I never heard this sort of . .

"drum them out of the Dem Party" chorus . .

When Debbie Wasserman Schultz was openly backing
Republicans while head of the DNC.

Difference being that DWS was not a progressive

[Demsrule86]

224. Nice whataboutism attempt...I don't consider it drumming anyone out of the Dem party...but

we must face facts. Those who do not vote for Democrats and even register for the party...(much whining about open primaries which I am against) are not Democrats. For all her faults DWS is a Democrat...and I would choose her over Stein or Turner of Trump any day.

[FairWinds]

229. What's good for the Goose-ism?

[Demsrule86]

236. Nothing good came out of electing Trump...there is no revlolution despite that twit Sarandon's

best efforts...only misery for the masses...and smug privilege for the pure among us.

[jalan48]

68. We've been moving to the right since 1980.

We have now reached a point where Ronald Reagan is considered a liberal by some and George Jr. is touted as preferable to Trump. How would Clinton have stopped this race to the right? At best, she would have held things in the center for 4-8 years. The rightwing would have had a field day with never ending scandals, investigations and propaganda. If we didn't get Trump now we would be getting him or someone like him down the road.

[leftstreet]

69. This

This is one of the smartest things I've read on DU in ages

[BainsBane]

100. And Trump has moved it to the Nazi right.

That is what her election would have stopped: Fascism. If you seriously think what you imagine above is worse. . .

[jalan48]

157. I think a Trump was inevitable the way we have been moving to the right.

[Demsrule86]

146. Tell that to the dreamers...the it is 'inevitable' meme ...I don't agree. We blew it.

And innocents will pay...I thank God that I don't have it on my conscience that I enabled Trump in any way. I worked for the campaign as a volunteer...have resisted. People like Sarandon I don't see how they even open their mouths ...they should be so ashamed.

[jalan48]

158. We did blow it. I agree.

[Nay]

243. Thank you. I've said this a number of times. Whether people want to believe it or not,

the RW propaganda has worked quite handily since 1980. It ruined whatever chance Hillary had to turn things around; as you say, she would be another placeholder for 4-8 years, and then we would get a ruinous Republican after her. I never could see Hillary even proposing a crash program to prepare for global warming, and she certainly would have never been able to get it through a Pub Congress even if she DID propose it. She would have been blocked in anything she might want to do -- election interference, gerrymandering, etc. -- she wouldn't have been able to get anything passed to correct those things. So, we just would have been 8 more years down the road with worsening global warming (which, of course, would have been the total fault of 16 years of libtards in office!).

It's hard to conceive of this in our present misery, but Trump is so bad, so ham-handed, so cretinous, so illiterate, so ignorant, so narcissistic, that he may singlehandedly do significant damage to the Republican Party. That's our only hope to gain ground in 2016. And I still don't believe we'll have a majority in either chamber!

[zipplewrath]

259. Yup, Europe of the 1930's

There were two large movements of sorts in Europe in the 1930, Communism/Socialism and Fascism. In Europe, the former "won" out to a great degree, in part because of the war basically wiping out the latter. Plus, considering the desperate condition of much of Europe, collective action was about the only way they'd survive. Plus, the US was heavily involved in their recovery and creating markets for US products.

Here in the US, there was a huge backlash towards the Communistic and Socialistic movements. It basically dominated politics for 50+ years. What got caught up in all of that was a fear of collective action like labor unions, social security, public health care, etc. The end result is that the US never spent much time fighting fascism internally and thus we find ourselves moving towards it as a solution to the very problems that corrective action was, and can, address.

We find ourselves fighting over the outcome of one election, of one candidate, and ignoring the trend that has been playing out since 1980, which is a steady slide towards authoritarianism. As is suggested, Trump was coming one way or another and any democratic president was going to be little more than a bump in the road, as have the last two democratic presidents. Really, 16 years later what are the enduring outcoming of the Clinton presidency? The GOP destroyed the budget almost as soon as they took over (deficits don't matter). They moved towards war on a global scale. Peace in the middle east has never been further away. 9/11, North Korea, Afghanistan, China, all are vastly worse. We'll of course see what will come of Obama's accomplishments but it is plain that the effort across the GOP is to undo as much as possible, as quickly as possible. Heck, they are hell bent to undo the Great Society and the New Deal.

We're going to have to figure out a way to reverse this trend, and something tells me Jill Stein has nothing to do with it.

[TexasBushwhacker]

71. Jeebus! Give it a rest!

She won the popular vote by a 3 million vote margin.

1. The Russians influenced the election to favor Trump.

2. There was, and continues to be, voter supression in many states.

Had those 2 issues not been a problem, she would have won PERIOD. Stop beating up on the extreme outliers of the party. They aren't why the ekection was STOLEN. There just aren't that many of them.

[Ligyron]

153. "There just aren't that many of them."

exactly this.

[TexasBushwhacker]

195. And it's worth noting that not every Bernie supporter was a Democrat

To assume they were is misinformed. Some were true independents. Some were libertarians or green party members who saw him as a semi-mainstream candidate they could support. Some were even Trump hating Republicans. For Democrats to think they somehow own them is misguided.

[Chakaconcarne]

72. pointless fucking thread

and those that post them are no different than your typical troll because at this point they are only divisive.

[stevenleser]

93. Tell that to a dreamer. Tell them the consequences of those who didn't vote Hillary don't matter. nt

[G_j]

128. How are you helping their situation today?

any suggestions?

[stevenleser]

187. Sure, a bunch, and I am doing them. None of them have anything to do with this discussion. nt

[ck4829]

74. OK, when are we going to begin resisting the causes of this suffering?

I'd give one of my fingers if we would start seeing threads referencing these:

http://www.aeinstein.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/FDTD.pdf
https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/SE-16.pdf
https://fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3_13.pdf
http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9611/guide.html
http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9410/computers.html
http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/guide.html
http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9605/guide1.html

I voted for Hillary in the general election, not grudgingly either, but "At least I voted for her" will be of no comfort to me if it all continues to go south.

If my nephew's skin starts to turn colors, his belly swells, and he desperately needs an organ transplant which is already facing hurdles because of the world's greatest healthcare system (TM), if the 'other' Americans such as people who benefit from DACA, Muslim Americans, the GLBTQ, etc. face mounting repression, and if the ideas we all share such as liberalism face erasure from the public discourse and with more extreme people demanding erasure of the people who hold these ideas all take root, then by all means let's give a middle finger to Sarandon, Stein, and Turner... but let's remember, that it won't actually fix anything in the end.

But this can be fixed, this can be resisted; Trump, Putin, the Adam Lanza and Dylann Roof Wannabes of the "alt-right" Nazis, and the people who want to make it seem OK to tear your eyes out over listening to a Democrat are not divine or a force of nature; their tropes and cliches can be deflated, their groups defunded, their leaders discredited, and the things they consider targets defended.

I've ruminated over "the one who got away" for a long time, and when I was done ruminating, she was still gone. And I'm afraid that's what we're doing here... ruminating on the past, not looking for treatment for what's happening today, not researching or coordinating on strategies and tactics of resistance, and not focused on the future.

If we can't discuss the documents above, then I wish someone would direct me via PM to a place where it is possible, some place in addition to this forum.

[BainsBane]

80. Who knew that the true victims of Trump's order yesterday

would not be the nearly one million DACA youth threatened with deportation but Stein voters.

[yardwork]

84. It's always about them. They weren't INSPIRED by the Democratic nominee.

[BainsBane]

85. It's fascinating how leftism

has come to be redefined not in terms of solidarity with the poor and marginalized but entirely in relation to self.

[fleabiscuit]

179. That

[stevenleser]

95. These folks are almost as good as Trump at playing the victim to try to ward off criticism. nt

[BainsBane]

99. And it's equally as effective

and equally transparent.

[BainsBane]

86. I wasn't initially going to rec this

because of the line about people grudgingly voting for Clinton because they ultimately did the right thing. But seeing the reactions to this thread, I realize I must rec it.

[stevenleser]

89. You can really see how JPR types/Stein voters didn't care about who they hurt

JPR folks who voted for Trump or Stein or didn't vote threw LGBT, African Americans, Latinos and women under the bus just to be assholes.

The overwhelming majority of these folks are white and they didn't give a damn about who they hurt.

[BainsBane]

102. I think it goes beyond that

I think some of them did it out of resentment toward those groups.

[lunasun]

103. I agree . It certainly was beyond " not caring "

[Pathwalker]

115. And they're back here on this very thread.

They hope we won't notice.

[stevenleser]

108. Everything you just wrote is wrong.

1. Bernie would not have beaten Trump. It isnt a national popularity contests its who wins certain states. Sanders had no way of contesting Florida, Virginia, Pennsylvania or any other eastern seaboard state south of Maryland. Hillary blew Sanders out in all of those states. Sanders had no strength in those states and would have been destroyed by Trump in each one of them. If Sanders loses those states, he has no way to get to 270 electoral votes. But its worse than that. If you cannot contest Florida, Virginia and Pennsylvania, you free up a lot of resources for your opponent to use elsewhere meaning a lot of other what would have been close states would have been won by Trump in a contest against Bernie.

2. We are all adults and are responsible for our actions. We are all responsible for the decisions we make and being able to evaluate what the consequences of those decisions will be. Trump said he would deport the dreamers and every other undocumented immigrant. If you refused to support Hillary in the general election, you knowingly allowed this to happen along with all the other items Trump promised and could be expected to do. You are responsible.

[Blue_true]

109. You forgot the jackasses Cornell West and Ralph Nader. Those assholes. nt

[DonCoquixote]

112. maybe even at the end voted for her grudgingly

" maybe even at the end voted for her grudgingly"

The grudging votes still count as votes. Do not mix those that criticized her, BUT VOTED FOR her, with the jill stein types. The surest way to dampen morale is to slam anyone that dared to criticze.

[Warren DeMontague]

173. There's more than a bit of Tinkerbell Phenomenon thinking at work

It's not enough that you voted for her. You weren't happy enough about it, you didn't check the box with enough enthusiasm.

This ship flies on BELIEF AND DREAMS--- and you left the fuel tank empty!

[beam me up scottie]

177. You make Tink angry.

[Demsrule86]

215. But that criticism could have caused multiple people to not vote for Hillary...so I say even if in

the end did the right thing and voted for Hillary...if you spent the election running her down on various websites and twitter. Some did it at JPR as well and making sure everyone knew you really don't like her...you still enabled Trump by discouraging others from voting for her. I am not talking about the primary...but during the general election period.

[mcar]

113. They are all over Twitter still

Swarming good Democrats who have the nerve to say good things about HRC.

[JHan]

116. your post is essentially true, and it's obvious some are working through some guilt..

which is their business.

Some of these people would not be directly affected by the shit Trump intends to do, such as ending DACA . Maybe their healthcare will be affected, but they failed some basic intelligence tests when it comes to political strategy and game theory, so they will hurt.

I don't give a fuck, I am black. Black women went 94% for Hillary and black women didn't vote Hillary because Hillary's vagina looks like theirs.

No doubt some of these same discontents will forever complain about "progressive values" dying . I've learned to tune out the nonsense, especially if they're doing fuckall besides being keyboard warriors, don't know campaign finance law, don't know how America ended up in this situation in the first place ( thanks Justice Roberts! Bush Appointee!). Invariably, I'm more liberal than many of these perpetual complainers are... so all the torturous rationalizations for their fuckery bores the hell out of me.

It's not difficult to understand 2016 and the simple task at hand:

- if you didn't vote, you amplified the power of those who voted in the main contest.
- if you voted for someone who could not possibly win the presidency, you risked terrible outcomes. In other words, if you couldn't stomach voting Hillary because she wasn't progressive enough or some shit, even though her positions on issues align with yours 80% of the time ( or even 95%) and you don't vote in a way to cancel out the votes of her opponent by wasting it on some narcissistic trip about your "conscience", then you bear some blame for Trump I don't care where you are, or which State you live in. ESPECIALLY if your ass was in WI/MI/PA. Shit wasn't hard to understand last year.
- If you voted for Hillary but engaged in bullshit equivocations about "lesser of two evils" and acted like it was the most painful thing to do in the world given who her opponent was, I don't know what to tell you... actually it's probably better that way. I just have facepalms for you.

I'm done being charitable.

[KitSileya]

117. Kudos!

You are absolutely right.

[fleabiscuit]

182. You and me both.

"...I'm done being charitable."

[BlueMTexpat]

210. I concur 100%

with what you say. One of my major disappointments is that in 2016, too many of my white sisters were not as politically astute or humane as our black sisters have always been.

White privilege indeed! And LOTS of facepalms for them, as well as no charity from me either!

[JHan]

214. .

[Demsrule86]

262. I love your post...and you are completely right.

My daughter is dating a nice young man who happens to be a person of color...we live in Ohio...not long ago, they went to the movies and some jerk said, 'Trump will make it illegal for white whores (not the real word, it began with a 'C') to betray their race. It was an old man so the boyfriend did not beat him to a pulp...he merely turned away and found a seat elsewhere. Someone else heard the comment and complained so the old guy was tossed out...that gives me hope. I keep reminding myself...these monsters are in the minority...we will beat them in the end.

[JHan]

278. what struck me in interviews with some Trump supporters..

was them saying "he says what's on his mind!" "I can now say what I've always wanted to say!"

Says it all.

[revmclaren]

118. K&R!

[pansypoo53219]

130. i held my nose, but i was all about, just eat your peas. my uncle voted for a 3rd party in 1980.

john anderson? i saw perot. JUST SAY NO! leiberfuckenputz too in 2000. why the GOP wins. EAT THE PEAS. its good for you.

[BrooklynTech]

161. This is a recording...

n/t

[Lil Missy]

172. I don't think we need to pound that into their heads anymore. While I agree - I chose to let it go.

[Warpy]

178. You need another hobby, too

Picking at a scab doesn't make a wound heal.

So stop it, already.

[fleabiscuit]

183. It's more of a tattoo over the old scar. nt

[lunamagica]

185. K&R.

[philly_bob]

194. Now a pointless hate thread against those who COMPLAINED about HRC...

Why? why?

[Lazy Daisy]

197. Ah yes

Once again, the pain of the nation is ALL OUR FAULT. If we kill ourselves now would you be happy then?

This thread breaks SOOOOO many rules, but here it is. Just like all the previous threads of this nature.
So how many other Democrats do you view as no longer being Democrats because they back Republicans?
Does the name Debbie Wasserman Schultz ring a bell?? But she gets a pass right? She was wrongly villianized right?

FKN Pathetic!!

[orangecrush]

198. Threads like this accomplish

Exactly what?

[Gore1FL]

201. They help to divide the Left.

It's been standard fare for the past year. Here is the process:

1> Push potential allies away.
2> Blame potential allies for not being with you.
3> Repeat step 2 but with extra sauce.
4> Loop back to step 1.

[Lithos]

199. I voted for Bernie then voted for Hillary

He had my support thru the primary, she had my full support in the General. Once the primary was over, there were *NO OTHER* options - period.

I am sure now Stein was in league with Putin. Sarandon is lost in her own little world of bogeymen.

[Gore1FL]

200. Before you post an OP, ask yourself, "Does this sound like something Donald Trump would tweet?"

If the answer is "yes" then don't.

Quit shitting on DU with your divisiveness.

[Warren DeMontague]

209. yep. Some folks look for answers

others, look for fights.

[democrank]

202. Reply #29 says it all

and I've been a voting Democrat for over five decades.

Montpelier, Vermont has a population of under 8,000. In January, 2017, more than 15,000 people attended the Women's March there. Party affiliation didn't motivate us, issues and concern for our country did. I didn't see one sign saying DEMOCRATS ONLY, but I saw a zillion signs about peace, single payer health care, getting money out of politics, coexistence, tolerance, rebuilding bridges, prison reform, women's right to choose. I know for certain that not all attendees were Democrats but we stood for the same issues.

Folks on DU have access to information regarding how many seats we've lost over the last 10-12 years. Obviously we have to reverse that trend. The only way we're going to win back seats is to reach out, not keep out.

[appal_jack]

203. This post is truly pointless and counter-productive.

Recriminations about the 2016 vote at this point in time only serve to fan flames of alienation into 2018 and beyond. Let's seek ideas, proposals, and candidates we can unite around now in order to WIN next year.

-app

[Demsrule86]

225. The entire point is that the Dems are in a self-defeating cycle where we punish the party by not

voting or voting for useless troll candidates like Stein...Learn from history because I see the same thing starting up (Feinstien and Jarris threads ET AL)...or be doomed to repeat it...all the excuses found in these surprisingly many post all echo the same thing...not our fault and hey it is our right...yada yada yada...sure it is, but what does it accomplish to elect worse people who never agree with you? primarying Democrats when the GOP own its all, and complaining about the Democratic Party surely discourages voters from voting for us in the end. You can defend those on the left whose votes for Stein or not voting cost us the electoral college, and enabled a Trump win...but really it was an indefensible and monstrous act. Trump told everyone he intended to do. It was not a secret. And the truly innocent will pay the price...the poor, women, DACA kids and other immigrants, Transgender folks and people of color. I see a monstrous sense of privilege in those that somehow believed voting for a third party or staying home was a moral choice; it was no such thing...It showed that these people had a complete lack of empathy towards those their actions harmed...Sarandon and Turner are the poster children for this phenomenon and can both go straight to hell as far as I am concerned.

[shanny]

204. Is there a special sign-up sheet someplace

where people pledge to post this or the equivalent every day? Sure seems like it.

Although it also seems the purity bar keeps getting raised: now it is not enough to have voted for Hillary, one must have also done so with a sufficient (but subjective) level of enthusiasm. What's next, loyalty oaths and public floggings?

[SusanaMontana41]

218. Bingo. nt

[Demsrule86]

226. Is there a special sign up sheet where people pledge to post article trashing the Democratic Party,

Democratic elected or future Democratic Candidates? I have seen multiple threads doing just that.

[shanny]

228. two wrongs make it right?

[Demsrule86]

241. I didn't say it was wrong.

[shanny]

255. yeah, ok

[SusanaMontana41]

213. Why are you so convinced she lost? I think the election was stolen.

We're learning more about Russia's hacking every day. Point the finger at Putin.

[Demsrule86]

227. It might have been. But only close elections are easily stolen...and we know that

many who call themselves progressive did not vote for Sec. Clinton. They bragged about it. And if you consider other elections ...10,14 we see that many didn't turn out because they wanted to punish President Obama for not getting everything they desired...it is a vicious cycle and must end...or we we lose our Republic.

[SusanaMontana41]

252. Among Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin,

Clinton lost by 80,000 votes total.

That, to me, is close.

[Demsrule86]

253. Exactly...very suspicious.

[Act_of_Reparation]

233. Your post makes me wonder which is more irritating...

...goose stepping or stream-of-consciousness prose.

[Demsrule86]

234. Easy decision ....goose stepping and torches...both were enabled by the election of Trump...so here

hoping some have learned a valuable lesson from 16 and won't repeat this sort of catastrophe.

[Act_of_Reparation]

250. I, too, dislike goose stepping.

I expect it from the other side. It's goddamned shameful to see it here.

[Willie Pep]

256. I think most of those people were lost to us anyway.

Yes there were some Democrats who probably sat out the election or voted third party due to believing the hype about "Crooked Hillary." I know two guys like that, one who voted for Jill Stein and the other who stayed home and didn't vote at all. But I think most of the people you are thinking about likely stay home or vote third party anyway. Most Sanders supporters "came home" and voted for Clinton in the general election. I am more dismayed by the number of Obama to Trump voters who likely swung the Rust Belt to Trump.

EDIT: I should add that the Stein voter I know might not even be a Democrat now that I think about it. He is a hippie type who has worked for Green Party candidates in the past so he might not even be a Democrat. My friend who sat out the election is a Democrat, though.

[Beacool]

270. Trump is such an abomination that I will never forgive those who didn't vote for Hillary.

I hope that they all personally suffer the consequences of having a POS like Trump for president.

[NurseJackie]

279. Look how GIDDY Susan Sarandon is about Trump...

... now THAT's what I call "privilege".