Sen. Bernie Sanders: ending DACA "one of the ugliest and cruelest decisions ever made"

[beam me up scottie]

Sanders is the son of an immigrant and also co-sponsored the DREAM act.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[LostOne4Ever]

1. WTG Bernie and all the other politicians fighting this

This was a cruel, heartless and outright evil decision by Trump and the Naziwannabe party!

[beam me up scottie]

2. Yes! We need to be united now more than ever.

Almost a million Dreamers are going to be deported if Congress can't stop this.

[pangaia]

3. Right on the money.

Nothing milk toast about THAT.

Ugly and cruel.

Words to be repeated every hour, everywhere.

[beam me up scottie]

4. Exactly!

As the daughter of an immigrant I cannot imagine how terrified Dreamers and their families are right now.

[Lordquinton]

5. Go Bernie!

One of the truly consistent voices on immigration and many other progressive causes!

[beam me up scottie]

7. There's a reason cofounder of the Dream Action Coalition Cesar Vargas trusts Bernie.

Unfortunately even though he finally became the first undocumented lawyer in New York he may now face deportation too.

César Vargas Just Became New York’s First Undocumented Lawyer

After a nearly three-year wait, a five-judge panel in New York ruled this week that César Vargas — a native of Mexico and longtime New Yorker — can be admitted to practice law in the state he’s called home since he was 5, even though he remains an undocumented immigrant. The unanimous decision can be read as a huge win for DREAMers, who have faced some tough opposition in Congress and the courts — just last week, a federal appeals court in Texas refused to block a February ruling that effectively halted President Obama’s plan to ease restrictions on millions of undocumented immigrants living in the U.S.

But Vargas’s case was chiefly a state matter. And boiled down to its basics, the judges faced a rather simple question: Does the fact of Vargas’s undocumented status reflect in any way on his “character and fitness” to practice law in New York? The court ruled conclusively:

We find that the undocumented status of an individual applicant does not, alone, suggest that the applicant is not possessed of the qualities that enable attorneys to vigorously defend their client’s interests within the bounds of the law, nor does it suggest that the applicant cannot protect, as an officer of the court, the rule of law and the administration of justice.

The judges reached this conclusion rather easily. They deferred to the bar committee’s “stellar” rating of Vargas, determined that he met all the statutory requirements to become an attorney, and found “no rational basis” that his immigration status “reflects adversely on his competence to practice law in the State of New York.”

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/06/new-york-just-got-its-first-undocumented-lawyer.html

[fallout87]

6. Thanks Bernie.

Thanks for also not stepping aside when it was apparent you weren't going to win the nomination. Thanks for leading thousands of people in key states away from voting for Hillary. Thanks a lot.

[radical noodle]

10. Yes and to all those

who thought Hillary was worse than trump.

[murielm99]

12. Hillary has also spoken up about

the DACA repeal. It was good to hear from her.

[radical noodle]

13. Yes, and Chelsea has as well

When I think how much better off the world would be with our Madam President, I just feel sick that trump is doing so many terrible things she would not have done.

[white_wolf]

28. Sanders encouraged his supporters to vote for Hillary and the vast majority of us did.

This Sanders bashing is getting absurd. Quit refighting the primaries. The facts are that if Clinton couldn't earn those key votes then that is on her or, possibly, James Comey. But none of it is on Sanders.

[beam me up scottie]

40. Of course he did, we knew who the real enemy is. So yes, thanks Bernie!

[Jim Lane]

79. Indeed we did, but I must disagree with you on one point.

You write, "This Sanders bashing is getting absurd." No, it's been absurd for quite some time now.

[Lordquinton]

87. This

And defectors this last election were at a record low, Bernie voters are very loyal to the party.

[Boomer]

123. This, so much this

I have nothing to apologize for in voting for Sanders in the primaries. The whole point of primaries is to debate different positions and policies. Sanders lost the primary and I voted for Clinton in the national election, because that's what Democrats do, and I'm a Democrat.

[lunamagica]

35. +1

[karynnj]

102. no proof that that happened at all

Not to mention, HRC herself did not stop running when it was very likely that Obama would be the nominee. She did not stop until after the very last primary.

There is no way you can prove that Bernie lost HRC voters that would have voted for her. In fact, Bernie and his supporters may have won her more people who otherwise would not have voted for her. He became trusted by many people who were not traditionally Democrats. For some, he might have been the only one who could reach them. Obviously, many were not "transferable".

It has been almost 10 months since the election. I serious do not remember anywhere near this many threads in September 2005 claiming that Howard Dean and his supporters cost Kerry the election. PS just as in any election, Dean attacks were used by GWB.

You can blame the media's obsession with Trump, the anger in the country, the fact that people wanted change, Hillary's bad luck in getting pnuemonia (leading to publicly fainting and likely leading to less appearances in the critical last months), Comey's inept actions, Russia/Wikileaks putting out DNC and Podeta stuff, and Hillary Clinton's weak book tour, and her poor handling of the email issue. Given all that, why do you think the critical factor was her primary opponent, who refused to go after her on the email?

[renate]

115. very well said!

Thank you!

[R B Garr]

107. +1000, Exactly.

[zentrum]

8. Love Bernie!

[beam me up scottie]

11. Indeed! Here he is on the Senate floor in 2013 speaking for Dreamers:

Since he co-sponsored the bill I expect he will be up there defending them again. We will need to recruit from across the aisle if at all possible. It's not a done deal yet.

[SunSeeker]

14. Here he is in 2007 repeating a false story about immigrants taking lifeguard jobs.

 "I read something today that a lot of people coming into this country are coming in as lifeguards."
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/12/10981234/bernie-sanders-lou-dobbs
All to justify his no vote on the Kennedy-McCain Immigration Reform bill. The lack of comprehensive immigration reform is why we ended up needing DACA.

[beam me up scottie]

15. You mean Bush's bill? The one the SPLC likened to slavery?

Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States

This report, updated in February 2013, details the systematic exploitation of foreign workers who come to this country for temporary jobs under the nation's H-2 guestworker program. Based on dozens of legal cases immigration and interviews with thousands of guestworkers, it documents how guestworkers are routinely cheated out of wages, forced to mortgage their futures to obtain low-wage, temporary jobs, and held virtually captive by employers.

In the debate over comprehensive immigration reform, various policymakers and business groups have suggested that Congress create a new or expanded guestworker program to ensure a steady supply of foreign workers for industries that rely on an abundance of cheap labor.

Congress should look before it leaps. The current H-2 program, which provides temporary farmworkers and non-farm laborers for a variety of U.S. industries, is rife with labor and human rights violations committed by employers who prey on a highly vulnerable workforce. It harms the interests of U.S. workers, as well, by undercutting wages and working conditions for those who labor at the lowest rungs of the economic ladder. This program should not be expanded or used as a model for immigration reform.

https://www.splcenter.org/20130218/close-slavery-guestworker-programs-united-states

Bernie's reason for opposing the bill:

I voted against that piece of legislation (the 2007 immigration reform bill) because it had guest-worker provisions in it which the Southern Poverty Law Center talked about being semi-slavery. Guest workers are coming in, they're working under terrible conditions, but if they stand up for their rights, they're thrown out of the country. I was not the only progressive to vote against that legislation for that reason.

It was also opposed by immigrant groups:

Bush Immigration Proposal Falls Short President's plan fails to outline a comprehensive bill that is workable, fair and just

Washington, DC -- The League of United Latin American Citizens urges President Bush to work with the bipartisan coalition of House and Senate leaders who have introduced comprehensive immigration reform legislation that is workable and honors our country's tradition as a nation of immigrants.

As currently worded, President Bush's plan would unnecessarily split families and create a permanent underclass of temporary workers with no prospects of fully participating in U.S. society. Under the President's proposal fines and fees for regularizing one's status would grow to well over $20,000 per person making it unlikely that low income workers would ever be able to become permanent legal residents.

The American people support reasonable immigration reform that would provide a realistic pathway for hardworking immigrants to become permanent legal residents provided they undergo a background check, pay a fine, pay back taxes, learn English and obey the law. Americans also want to encourage future immigrant workers to come in legally and to help reunite families waiting for a visa for their loved ones.

"We commend the President for reaffirming his support of comprehensive immigration reform in Yuma, Arizona today," said LULAC National President Rosa Rosales. "Unfortunately, the President's proposal falls short of his commitment to providing a realistic pathway for hard working immigrants to have a shot at the American Dream."

Under the President's proposal, whole visa categories for close family members are eliminated. The proposal creates new Y and Z visa categories requiring applicants to pay fines from $3,500 every three years in order to work and $10,000 to apply for permanent status. These new categories expressly forbid family members to accompany any Z or Y visa holder. In addition, visa holders who choose to apply for permanent status at any time would have to return to their country of origin and get in back of the line regardless of the number of years they have worked legally or the thousands paid in fines.

LULAC does agree with President Bush that comprehensive immigration reform should be passed this year and we encourage him to keep pushing Congress to send a bill to him this year. The League of United Latin American Citizens, the oldest and largest Hispanic membership organization in the country, advances the economic conditions, educational attainment, political influence, health and civil rights of Hispanic Americans through community-based programs operating at more than 700 LULAC councils nationwide.

Local contact -Domingo Garcia 214-941-XXXX

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/you-know-who-likes-the-presidents-immigration-reform-plan-nobody-thats-who-7141760

Slavery is still immoral, even if it's called something else.

[SunSeeker]

20. The Kennedy-McCain bill did not spread a false story that immigrants were taking lifeguard jobs.

Bernie did that. On the creep Dobbs' show:

DOBBS: Those are all industries in which wages are declining. I don't hear that discussed on the Senate floor by the proponents of this amnesty legislation. 

SANDERS: That's right. They have no good response. I read something today that a lot of people coming into this country are coming in as lifeguards. I guess we can't find - that's right. We can't American workers to work as lifeguards. And the H1B program has teachers, elementary school teachers. Well, you know. 

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029550598

[beam me up scottie]

23. Still slavery, still immoral.

You are free to disagree and keep posting that link over and over again but I still agree with the SPLC and LULAC.

[SunSeeker]

25. You can keep ignorimg Bernie's own words, but I won't. nt

[beam me up scottie]

29. You do that while I stand behind the co-sponsor of the DREAM act.

This seems like a bad time to try to discredit progressive senators who are standing up to Trump but that's just my opinion.

Ymmv.

Have a nice day.

[SunSeeker]

32. How is QUOTING someome discrediting them?

[zentrum]

33. Agree.

[beam me up scottie]

34. This is exactly what the GOP wants us to do, discredit our own before the fight.

I will never understand why we continue to do that - especially after Trump was elected.

It's one thing to disagree with current positions but to drag up old articles and use them against liberals in Congress right now is self defeating.

Why try to portray any of our senators as anti-immigration when they're fighting the real enemies of Dreamers? What purpose does attacking them serve?

It makes no sense.

[zentrum]

56. Yes--these

...times are way too dangerous to be picking at Bernie for standing up for Dreamers. ( Not to mention the terrible exploitative problems with the guest worker program). But you know--many Dems can't stop re-litigating the primaries and I always feel attacks on him are symbols for that.

[beam me up scottie]

58. That's exactly what they are.

And if the attempts to discredit him and other senators don't stop it will cost us all. We need to be united right now.

The lives of 800,000 Dreamers depend on it.

[zentrum]

68. Yup.

[virtualobserver]

59. What are you talking about, BMUS!

It's ALWAYS a good time to discredit progressive senators who are standing up to Trump!

[beam me up scottie]

60. Lol!

Thanks for making me laugh, friend. I needed that tonight.

Trump's decision isn't a surprise but it still feels like a punch in the gut.

[virtualobserver]

66. They are playing political games with people's lives.

Trump's decision to embrace open racism and racists was a turning point.

For too long Republicans have said "pay no attention to the Klansman behind the dog-whistle curtain"....and now they are exposed.

The only consolation is that Republicans are destroying themselves in this process, and digging their political graves.

[beam me up scottie]

69. Indeed they are.

I would like to be optimistic and I think in the long run racism will finish off the GOP, but right now it's difficult to see that happening. I live in a red state and we are so outnumbered. I think too many don't care if it doesn't affect them, they either vote Republican or don't vote at all.

[virtualobserver]

78. I'm a disciple of the philosopher Pollyanna.....

I live in a red state, too......so I know what you mean....but....

The underlying numbers for Trump look very bad.....so it is a catch-22 situation for the Republicans.....

They lose if they defy him, by losing his rabid base, and they lose if they go along with him, by losing independents.

My message to red state Republicans.....voting is overrated....if you really want to send a message....stay home.

[QC]

121. And whenever things are especially bad for Trump, the shit-stirring here

gets cranked up to 11.

I'm sure that's purely coincidental, though.

[lunamagica]

45. Ted Kennedy proposed an immoral bill? Was he for slavery?

[beam me up scottie]

46. I dunno, the SPLC and League of United Latin American Citizens thought it was like slavery.

LULAC is the largest and oldest Hispanic organization in the United States. LULAC advances the economic condition, educational attainment, political influence, housing, health and civil rights of Hispanic Americans through community-based programs operating at more than 1,000 LULAC councils nationwide. The organization involves and serves all Hispanic nationality groups.

With approximately 132,000 members throughout the United States and Puerto Rico, LULAC is the largest and oldest Hispanic organization in the United States. LULAC advances the economic condition, educational attainment, political influence, housing, health and civil rights of Hispanic Americans through community-based programs operating at more than 1,000 LULAC councils nationwide. The organization involves and serves all Hispanic nationality groups.

Historically, LULAC has focused heavily on education, civil rights, health, and employment for Hispanics. LULAC councils and LULAC National Educational Service Centers provide approximately a million dollars in scholarships to Hispanic students each year. LULAC Institute programs include citizenship and voter registration drives, education and health events and programs that empower the Hispanic community at the local, state and national level.

http://lulac.org/about/

The Southern Poverty Law Center is dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of our society. Using litigation, education, and other forms of advocacy, the SPLC works toward the day when the ideals of equal justice and equal opportunity will be a reality.

https://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do

They seem to be on the right side so I will have to defer to them.

[lunamagica]

48. Oh. so you think he DID want to pass an immoral bill and was for slavery

Last edited Mon Sep 4, 2017, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)

interesing...

[beam me up scottie]

50. He had good reasons to support it and others had good reasons to oppose it.

Bills are like that, the fact that Bernie voted for the DREAM act of 2007 and cosponsored it in 2011 proves to me he's pro-immigration.

I still side with the SPLC and LULAC.

And I stand with Bernie as he continues to fight Trump.

[lunamagica]

51. If the immigration bill had passed, there'd be no need for the DREAM act

Oh, and how conveniently you forget anbout SEIU Eliseo Molina

[beam me up scottie]

53. The SPLC, LULAC and Bernie all had good reasons to oppose it.

I still stand with them and against making immigrants into slaves.

And I don't think dragging up old articles in order to discredit a cosponsor of the DREAM act is a wise choice right now.

But you do what you have to do.

I'll be over here in Bernie's corner.

[lunamagica]

61. Well, well well, How about this? LULAC Urges Congress to Support Bipartisan Immigration Plan

LULAC Urges Congress to Support Bipartisan Immigration Plan
August 2, 2005 LULAC Urges Congress to Support Bipartisan Immigration Plan2005-08-02T23:17:52+00:00 Life & Culture No Comment

LULAC Urges Congress to Support Bipartisan

Immigration Plan

The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act addresses immigration reform as law enforcement, human rights, economic and national security issue

Washington, DC-The League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC) is urging Congress to support a bipartisan immigration reform bill that will revamp the current system and offer a multi-tiered conduit to citizenship for undocumented immigrants. The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act, sponsored by Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA) and Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), is a realistic approach that addresses immigration reform as a law enforcement, human rights, economic and national security issue.

The proposed law would allow undocumented immigrants to apply for temporary work permits that could last for six years. They would have to clear criminal background checks, pass an English language test and pay a $2,000 fee to qualify. In addition, at the end of the six years, they and their families could apply for permanent residency, and five years later for citizenship.

“This bill is a pragmatic and responsible approach to immigration reform. As the oldest civil rights organization in the country, we have examined numerous immigration reform policies, and the Kennedy-McCain bill is by far one of the best we have seen,” said LULAC National President Hector M. Flores.

(Continued on Page 6)

Flores added, “We can no longer continue to brush aside the millions of undocumented immigrants who live, work, raise families and establish roots in this country. Instead of alienating them and forcing them to break laws, it’s time we embrace responsibility by recognizing their hard-earned value and incorporating them into our great country.”

“The Kennedy-McCain bill is the type of legislation that demonstrates our leaders realize that the millions of immigrants living in this country are here for the long term,” said LULAC Director of Policy and Legislation Gabriela Lemus. “Now we have the parameters within which we can have progressive talks about immigration reform.”

http://eleditor.com/lulac-urges-congress-to-support-bipartisan-immigration-plan/

[beam me up scottie]

62. That was the 2005 bill, it appears they changed their mind in 2007.

Bush Immigration Proposal Falls Short President's plan fails to outline a comprehensive bill that is workable, fair and just

Washington, DC -- The League of United Latin American Citizens urges President Bush to work with the bipartisan coalition of House and Senate leaders who have introduced comprehensive immigration reform legislation that is workable and honors our country's tradition as a nation of immigrants.

As currently worded, President Bush's plan would unnecessarily split families and create a permanent underclass of temporary workers with no prospects of fully participating in U.S. society. Under the President's proposal fines and fees for regularizing one's status would grow to well over $20,000 per person making it unlikely that low income workers would ever be able to become permanent legal residents.

The American people support reasonable immigration reform that would provide a realistic pathway for hardworking immigrants to become permanent legal residents provided they undergo a background check, pay a fine, pay back taxes, learn English and obey the law. Americans also want to encourage future immigrant workers to come in legally and to help reunite families waiting for a visa for their loved ones.

"We commend the President for reaffirming his support of comprehensive immigration reform in Yuma, Arizona today," said LULAC National President Rosa Rosales. "Unfortunately, the President's proposal falls short of his commitment to providing a realistic pathway for hard working immigrants to have a shot at the American Dream."

Under the President's proposal, whole visa categories for close family members are eliminated. The proposal creates new Y and Z visa categories requiring applicants to pay fines from $3,500 every three years in order to work and $10,000 to apply for permanent status. These new categories expressly forbid family members to accompany any Z or Y visa holder. In addition, visa holders who choose to apply for permanent status at any time would have to return to their country of origin and get in back of the line regardless of the number of years they have worked legally or the thousands paid in fines.

LULAC does agree with President Bush that comprehensive immigration reform should be passed this year and we encourage him to keep pushing Congress to send a bill to him this year. The League of United Latin American Citizens, the oldest and largest Hispanic membership organization in the country, advances the economic conditions, educational attainment, political influence, health and civil rights of Hispanic Americans through community-based programs operating at more than 700 LULAC councils nationwide.

Local contact -Domingo Garcia 214-941-XXXX

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/you-know-who-likes-the-presidents-immigration-reform-plan-nobody-thats-who-7141760

Well, well, well - how about that indeed...

[lunamagica]

63. Here is the portion of the bill related to workers. Where is the slavery?

RSS
TAGS
Share this article
This is a good run-down of the provisions in the Immigration Bill that Senator Kennedy and Senator McCain unveiled this week - Senator Kennedy will be on "Inside Politics" today and "Face the Nation" on Sunday to discuss this bill and the judicial nominees.

Cross posted at www.tedkennedy.com
Title I: Border Security

Requires the development of various plans and reports evaluating information-sharing, international and federal-state-local coordination, technology, anti-smuggling, and other border security initiatives
Establishes a Border Security Advisory Committee made up of various stakeholders in the border region to provide recommendations to the Department of Homeland Security regarding border enforcement
Encourages the development of multilateral partnerships to establish a North American security perimeter and improve border security south of Mexico

Title II: State Criminal Alien Assistance

Reauthorizes the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program that provides reimbursement to state and local governments for incarcerating undocumented aliens convicted of crimes
Allows for funding to pay for additional criminal justice costs associated with undocumented immigrants charged or convicted of crimes

Title III: Essential Worker Visa Program

Creates a new temporary visa to allow foreign workers to enter and fill available jobs that require few or no skills (the H-5A visa)
Applicants must show that they have a job waiting in the U.S., pay a fee of $500 in addition to application fees, and clear all security, medical, and other checks
Requires updating of America's Job Bank to make sure job opportunities are seen first by American workers
Initial cap on H-5A visas is set at 400,000, but the annual limit will be gradually adjusted up or down based on demand in subsequent years
Visa is valid for three years, and can be renewed one time for a total of 6 years; at the end of the visa period the worker either has to return home or be in the pipeline for a green card
Visa is portable, but if the worker loses his job he has to find another one within 60 days or return home
Ensures that employers hiring temporary workers abide by Federal, state and local labor, employment and tax laws
Prohibits the hiring of temporary workers as independent contractors
Protects temporary workers from abuse by foreign labor contractors or employers.
Gives temporary workers and U.S. workers remedies for violations of their rights
An employer can sponsor the H-5A visa holder for a green card, or after accumulating four years of work in H-5A status, the worker can apply to adjust status on his/her own
Sets up a task force to evaluate the H-5A program and recommend improvements

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2005/5/13/113818/-

You go ahead and stand with Sanders. I'll stand with the immigrants

[beam me up scottie]

64. I refer you back to the statements from the SPLC and LULAC.

They seem to know what they're doing.

I'll stand with Dreamers and the co-sponsor of the DREAM act, Senator Bernie Sanders.

Link to tweet

[lunamagica]

65. Can't you read and think for yourself?

[beam me up scottie]

67. I'm not an immigration expert, I trust the SPLC and LULAC.

I read their statements and they seem to know what they're doing.

I stand with them, the Dreamers and the co-sponsor of the DREAM act, Senator Bernie Sanders.

[lunamagica]

71. His vote was not about protecting migrant workers

" At a time when nearly 14 percent of the American people do not have a full-time job, at a time when the middle class continues to disappear, and at a time when tens of millions of Americans are working longer hours for lower wages, it makes no sense to me that the immigration reform bill includes a massive increase in temporary guest worker programs that will allow large corporations to import and bring into this country hundreds of thousands of temporary blue-collar and white-collar guest workers from overseas. That makes no sense to me."

"Here is my concern about this legislation. At a time when millions of Americans are working longer hours for low wages and have seen real cuts in their wages and benefits, this legislation would, over a period of years, bring millions of low-wage workers from other countries into the United States. If wages are already this low in Vermont and throughout the country, what happens when more and more people are forced to compete for these jobs? Sadly, in our country today—and this is a real tragedy—over 25 percent of our children drop out of high school. In some minority neighborhoods, that number is even higher. What kind of jobs will be available for those young people?

The congressional record is clear - his objection to the 2007 immigration bill was based on his concern about immigrants lowering Americans’ wages. In debates this primary season, Bernie has excused his vote against immigration reform in 2007 saying that he voted against it because the guest worker program is akin to semi-slavery. I went through the congressional record of the 110th Congress, looking for evidence of Bernie’s concern about guest workers being treated as semi-slaves, being the reason for his ‘no’ vote. I could find none. I invite the reader to find any speech, interview or press release — any medium at all — from 2007 where Bernie Sanders stated he was voting against that bill due to his concern about guest workers being treated as semi-slaves. Sen. Sanders’ press release from that debate also clearly states his concern about protecting American workers from immigrant workers.


https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/19/1480831/-Bernie-Sanders-Restrictive-Views-on-Immigration

[beam me up scottie]

72. I'm sure snowman3 from Dkos is nice and all, but again, I'll have to defer to the SPLC and LULAC.

They said the bill treated immigrants like slaves, Bernie agreed with them and I do too.

But neat diary! snowman3 sure is opinionated about Bernie.

[lunamagica]

73. Oh. I see you can't find any reference to Sanders voting out of concern for the migrant workers in

2007. He changed his story for convenience. He should have owned up to his real reason for the vote. I mean, that's what honest people do.

[beam me up scottie]

74. That's snowman3's opinion, that doesn't make it the truth.

That makes it his word against Bernie's.

I'll email Bernie and tell him he needs to refute the opinion of a diarist by the name of snowman3. I'm sure he'll get right on that when he's done fighting Trump in the Senate.

[lunamagica]

75. Then show me where he said it

[beam me up scottie]

76. It's up to you to prove your allegation, it's not my job to disprove it.

So unless you can prove that he wasn't truthful I'm done with this subthread.

I am not interested in rehashing old battles and giving our enemies ammunition to use against our side. 2007 is over and the battle we are fighting now impacts the lives of 800,000 Dreamers, so one more time:

I stand with the Dreamers and the cosponsor of the DREAM act, Senator Bernie Sanders, and with the other people in Congress who are going to fight with him. We need to be united if we want to beat this.

Trump is the enemy, not Bernie.

Have a nice day.

[lunamagica]

77. My allegation? You are the one alleging that he voted out of concern for immigrants

But there no evidence of that

[George II]

86. Here's a quote from an interview by Lou Dobbs that someone else posted earlier:

"I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are now."

That's only a part of the interview, but pretty clear that his concern, at least then, wasn't that they would be "slave workers".

[Lordquinton]

89. Very convincing

an out of context, unsourced quote with strong editorializing.

[George II]

90. No, no, and no...

Your three comments about the quote seem to contradict each other:

1. "out of context" - so you must know the context?
2. "unsourced quote" - implying it doesn't exist?
3. "strong editorializing" - you've seen the original quote?

Which of those three is it? I don't think all three can be true, perhaps 1 and 3, or 2 alone. Maybe you can help us out with the context, source, or the unexpurgated quote?

[Lordquinton]

92. Are you serious?

You can't be serious.

[George II]

93. As serious as the post I responded to.

So, let's run this down again:

First I posted a quote "I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are now."

Then you posted demonstrably* "an out of context, unsourced quote with strong editorializing"

So clearly you know the context, may or may not know the source, and you know the original quote prior to being "editorialized". True?

So, what was the context and what was the original uneditorialized quote? And if you know those two thing, surely you know the source.

Hint: he said it in a television interview in 2007.

*demonstrably definition: in a way that is clearly apparent or capable of being logically proved.

[Lordquinton]

94. Oh, so you were serious...

You literally posted a quote with no context, no source, and put your own spin on it. That is fact, if you want to argue with the facts you could go and edit your post to attempt to make me look the fool.

Hints, guessing games, and putting the onus on the person calling you out don't count as sourcing, or context, or anything else.

Try harder.

I'm glad you looked up demonstrably, now you know what it is when people use it. I hope others learned what it means too so they can use it when something is demonstrably without source, context, and has heavy editorializing attached.

[George II]

95. The quote is accurate as it stands, no context necessary and no spin put on it at all. As for...

...the source, it was Senator Sanders who said it.

I only looked up demonstrably to give you the definition in case you didn't know it, I've known the definition for decades, thank you.

[Lordquinton]

98. No, no and still no

and the fact that you're refusing to provide any of it has destroyed your credibility.

Why would you think I didn't know what it meant? I used it correctly, and you even supplied the proof that I did? For others reading? I suppose education lurkers is a noble cause...

[George II]

99. I provided the definition before you used that word. Who knows, it's possible (not likely).....

....that you may have used it incorrectly had I not provided the definition.

I won't get into the relative credibility of either one of us, it's demonstrably subjective for either of us to do so.

[Lordquinton]

113. No, it's not

one of us posted something in a vacuum, and refuses to source it, the other is calling them out.

One of us is demonstrably refusing to back up their words, even though it would be very easy to do so. Why is that?

[George II]

116. Actually, anyone keeping up on this thread would have seen that I sourced the quote....

....in my very first post in this subthread. The source is Senator Sanders, who I pointed out said it, and it was from an interview with Lou Dobbs. Go back to #86 here.

So, some might consider it a double source - the person who said it and where that person said it.

[Lordquinton]

118. And back where we started from

If you want to continue go ahead, just copy my previous posts, it'll be demonstrably easier.

[George II]

119. I assume that you're no longer doubting that Sanders said that to Lou Dobbs?

[R B Garr]

120. lol, maybe next you'll be asked to prove there is something called CNN.

[George II]

122. Or prove that there really IS a God?

[beam me up scottie]

106. Yes, you used it correctly.

Other examples to educate readers:

Referring to transgender girls as 'lady boys' is demonstrably transphobic.

Referring to African Americans as 'oreos' is demonstrably racist.

Anyone who uses those terms is demonstrably racist and transphobic.

Anyone who defends people who are racist and transphobic is demonstrably okay with racism and transphobia.

There, four other ways to illustrate the correct usage of the word demonstrably.

[George II]

112. What does any of that have to do with the discussion at hand?

[Lordquinton]

117. Excellent examples

I may carry on this new tradition of defining unusual, perhaps obscure terms that could befuddle the unknowing.

Befuddle: to make (someone) unable to think clearly

[R B Garr]

109. Yes, I saw that in the Lou Dobbs interview that is resurfacing now because of

the devastating DACA decision. It's been posted here, too, but apparently is unpopular, so.....

[R B Garr]

114. That's an exact quote, and it starts at about the 3:30 mark in the 5:15 video. nt

[Lordquinton]

88. Why are you posting the 2005 version

when we're discussing the 2007 version?

[George II]

97. Was that question directed to me? There have been so many responses that the lines leading...

...up to the post being responded to are conflating so it's difficult to follow the vertical lines properly.

[SMC22307]

21. Well, that certainly shut Vox down.

Well done. And thanks for the info.

[beam me up scottie]

26. Thanks. Barbara Boxer also agreed with Bernie:

I wish to make it clear that this guest worker program has nothing to do with the agricultural jobs program that is in this bill that I support, a bill that has been vetted at hearings. We know there is a need. There seems to be very little, if any, disagreement on that portion of the bill.

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/2007/05/22/senate-section/article/S6430-2

But this is a generalized guest worker program. I did hear the comments of Senator Sanders. I wish to associate myself with his remarks. Senator Sanders makes a brilliant point. How many times have we seen workers huddled in a corner with tears in their eyes because they received a notice that they have been laid off--not by the tens, not by the twenties, not by the hundreds but sometimes by the thousands. Big employers in this country seemingly with nowhere to turn tell us: Oh, my goodness, we have to compete, we have to pare down our employment, and they lay people off. Those same employers are now begging for a guest worker program. Why? You have to ask yourself why? I do have a degree in economics, but I would say that was a long time ago. You don't need a degree in economics to understand what is at stake. These large employers want a large, cheap labor pool that they can draw from. My colleagues on the other side say: Oh, we are protecting those workers. Oh, they will be fine.

You're welcome.

[SunSeeker]

30. How does that "shut Vox down"? Did Vox misquote Bernie?

In 2007, Bernie gave a very different reason for opposing comprehensive immigration reform. It wasn't because he thought the guest worker provisions were akin to slavery:

DOBBS: Those are all industries in which wages are declining. I don't hear that discussed on the Senate floor by the proponents of this amnesty legislation. 

SANDERS: That's right. They have no good response. I read something today that a lot of people coming into this country are coming in as lifeguards. I guess we can't find - that's right. We can't American workers to work as lifeguards. And the H1B program has teachers, elementary school teachers. Well, you know.

 https://www.vox.com/2016/2/12/10981234/bernie-sanders-lou-dobbs

[DRoseDARs]

22. Some people can't reach climax unless they can attack Bernie.

Context is like Reverse-Viagra. Shame on you for deflating their, erm, balloon.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Right? We should support the co-sponsor of the DREAM act now.

We need all of our fighters on the floor, this isn't a time to attack our own.

I still remember who the enemy is and his name isn't Bernie Sanders.

[DRoseDARs]

38. What amazed me most about the attacks on him was the misogyny...

Yes, misogyny. Not against him (that would be misandry) or from him (fucking as if ). No, from the people attacking him. Hillary Rodham Clinton is not some fucking damsel-in-distress needing y'all to come defend her honor. People swarmed like angry bees as if Sanders had stalked her around a debate stage any time he opened his mouth to point out or criticize a past or present policy position of hers. Which is, some people forget, exactly what primaries and elections are for: Pointing out differences and why you should chose one over the others. Clinton could always and has always held her own. She has N-E-V-E-R needed the likes of randos on the internet coming to her rescue. Hell, she never went after Bernie as vociferously as his detractors think he did against her because herp-derp his "attacks" were never that big a deal and she knew that plainly. Pretty sure it was cemented in her mind that Bernie is and always was a good man, an ally and a friend when he blurted out “The American people are sick and tired about hearing about your damn emails!” That look she gives him.

The hate on him has long-since evolved beyond just a misguided need to defend Clinton as if she were a delicate flower against his mighty wind (which, come on, I think we can all agree the man is often obnoxiously loud. Dude, volume control.) but it's sad that it continues. The noise will die out eventually (does anyone still argue over the 2008 primaries?) but we're stuck with it for now.

[questionseverything]

101. it is more than a misguided need to defend hc

I honestly think some of them are deliberately splitting us

I stayed away for months hoping it would end

I weep for the 99%

[A-Schwarzenegger]

70. !

That got alerted for "divisive group attack." Is there a whole actual group of them?

[QC]

82. Slavery might be a bit strong. How about indentured servitude?

It really is amazing to see self-styled liberals defending exploitative gastarbeiter programs, isn't it?

Or not, if you think about it.

[beam me up scottie]

104. I guess we all have our priorities.

I can't speak for them but mine is to unite behind every politician who's going to fight Trump on this.

[lunamagica]

36. Correct. If that bill had passed, the DREAMers would be permanent residents or even citizens

right now.

Thanks a lot, Sanders.

[beam me up scottie]

39. He voted the DREAM act of 2007.

Last edited Mon Sep 4, 2017, 07:24 AM - Edit history (1)

S.2205 - DREAM Act of 2007

A bill to authorize the cancellation of removal and adjustment of status of certain alien students who are long-term United States residents and who entered the United States as children, and for other purposes.

Sanders (I-VT), Yea

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00394

Here's more info from Wikipedia :

On October 18, 2007, Durbin, along with Republican co-sponsors Charles Hagel of Nebraska and Richard Lugar of Indiana, introduced the DREAM Act as S. 2205. Though nearly identical to the revised amendment to the Defense Bill, opponents continued to cite previous arguments. To bring the DREAM Act up for debate, a vote was scheduled on October 24 that would require a filibuster-proof count of 60 yes votes, but that failed. Senate opponents cited a variety of reasons for their opposition. Some labeled the DREAM Act as amnesty that would encourage chain migration and further illegal immigration in anticipation of new versions of the DREAM Act. Others stated that the DREAM Act, though worthy legislation, should be enacted only as part of a comprehensive immigration reform.

The text of the bill was placed in various other immigration-related bills, including the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2006 (S. 2611) and the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 (S. 1348). With the failure of these comprehensive reform bills, Senator Richard Durbin, Democrat from Illinois, made its passage a top priority for 2007. In September 2007, Durbin filed to place the DREAM Act as an amendment to the 2008 Department of Defense Authorization Bill (S. 2919). In light of the criticism, Durbin tabled the amendment in favor of a rewritten DREAM Act amendment to the Defense Bill. In consideration of their opponents, all language regarding in-state tuition was removed from the amendment and an age cap of 30 was put in place for potential beneficiaries. Military leaders embraced the bill, which included the promise of resident status to members of the military, as a means of boosting recruitment.

Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, who had previously stated that she would oppose consideration of the DREAM Act, announced on the Senate floor that she had expressed reservations to Durbin and he had made a verbal commitment to work with her to make changes that she saw necessary to garner greater Republican support. In response, Durbin announced that the first amendment that would be considered, should debate of the DREAM Act begin, would completely re-write the bill in favor of the language that Hutchison suggested. According to her suggestions, illegal immigrant students should be allowed to hold a temporary student visa with a renewable work permit instead of conditional permanent residency. Although 52 Senators voted in favor of considering the DREAM Act, this fell eight votes short of breaking filibuster and the legislation was not considered.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act

Bernie was one of those 52 senators, so the claim that he opposed a pathway to citizenship is clearly false. He supported the Dreamers all along.

[lunamagica]

41. No. I'm talking about the Kennedy-McCain bill, and you know that

[beam me up scottie]

43. If only Bush's bill hadn't created slaves out of immigrant workers.

The SPLC and immigration rights group LULAC also opposed it.

So to sum up, in 2007 Bernie opposed Bush's immigration bill that the SPLC likened to slavery but supported the DREAM act.

[lunamagica]

47. Here's what SEIU Eliseo Medina said said about the importance of passing the legislation at the time

Senator Sanders claims that he has consistently been on the right side of immigration reform, but the truth is, he opposed Senator Ted Kennedy’s 2007 immigration reform bill. Six times.

AP: “In 2007, [Sanders] cast six ballots to stop comprehensive immigration reform legislation sponsored by Arizona Sen. John McCain and the late Massachusetts Sen. Ted Kennedy from advancing to a vote.”
Sanders to Lou Dobbs in 2007: “I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are now.”

Here’s what SEIU’s Eliseo Medina said about the importance of passing the legislation at the time:

“The price of failure will be hundreds of more people dying in the desert. The price of failure will be more workplace raids and families separated as breadwinners are arrested and deported. The price of failure will be more public anger at the broken immigration system. More states and cities will pass punitive laws that target immigrants.”

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factchecks/2016/03/09/sanders-voted-against-ted-kennedys-comprehensive-immigration-reform-bill/

[beam me up scottie]

49. You're linking to Hillary's primary website? No thanks. I still side with the SPLC and LULAC.

Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States

This report, updated in February 2013, details the systematic exploitation of foreign workers who come to this country for temporary jobs under the nation's H-2 guestworker program. Based on dozens of legal cases immigration and interviews with thousands of guestworkers, it documents how guestworkers are routinely cheated out of wages, forced to mortgage their futures to obtain low-wage, temporary jobs, and held virtually captive by employers.

In the debate over comprehensive immigration reform, various policymakers and business groups have suggested that Congress create a new or expanded guestworker program to ensure a steady supply of foreign workers for industries that rely on an abundance of cheap labor.

Congress should look before it leaps. The current H-2 program, which provides temporary farmworkers and non-farm laborers for a variety of U.S. industries, is rife with labor and human rights violations committed by employers who prey on a highly vulnerable workforce. It harms the interests of U.S. workers, as well, by undercutting wages and working conditions for those who labor at the lowest rungs of the economic ladder. This program should not be expanded or used as a model for immigration reform.

https://www.splcenter.org/20130218/close-slavery-guestworker-programs-united-states

Bernie's reason for opposing the bill:

I voted against that piece of legislation (the 2007 immigration reform bill) because it had guest-worker provisions in it which the Southern Poverty Law Center talked about being semi-slavery. Guest workers are coming in, they're working under terrible conditions, but if they stand up for their rights, they're thrown out of the country. I was not the only progressive to vote against that legislation for that reason.

It was also opposed by immigrant groups:

Bush Immigration Proposal Falls Short President's plan fails to outline a comprehensive bill that is workable, fair and just

Washington, DC -- The League of United Latin American Citizens urges President Bush to work with the bipartisan coalition of House and Senate leaders who have introduced comprehensive immigration reform legislation that is workable and honors our country's tradition as a nation of immigrants.

As currently worded, President Bush's plan would unnecessarily split families and create a permanent underclass of temporary workers with no prospects of fully participating in U.S. society. Under the President's proposal fines and fees for regularizing one's status would grow to well over $20,000 per person making it unlikely that low income workers would ever be able to become permanent legal residents.

The American people support reasonable immigration reform that would provide a realistic pathway for hardworking immigrants to become permanent legal residents provided they undergo a background check, pay a fine, pay back taxes, learn English and obey the law. Americans also want to encourage future immigrant workers to come in legally and to help reunite families waiting for a visa for their loved ones.

"We commend the President for reaffirming his support of comprehensive immigration reform in Yuma, Arizona today," said LULAC National President Rosa Rosales. "Unfortunately, the President's proposal falls short of his commitment to providing a realistic pathway for hard working immigrants to have a shot at the American Dream."

Under the President's proposal, whole visa categories for close family members are eliminated. The proposal creates new Y and Z visa categories requiring applicants to pay fines from $3,500 every three years in order to work and $10,000 to apply for permanent status. These new categories expressly forbid family members to accompany any Z or Y visa holder. In addition, visa holders who choose to apply for permanent status at any time would have to return to their country of origin and get in back of the line regardless of the number of years they have worked legally or the thousands paid in fines.

LULAC does agree with President Bush that comprehensive immigration reform should be passed this year and we encourage him to keep pushing Congress to send a bill to him this year. The League of United Latin American Citizens, the oldest and largest Hispanic membership organization in the country, advances the economic conditions, educational attainment, political influence, health and civil rights of Hispanic Americans through community-based programs operating at more than 700 LULAC councils nationwide.

Local contact -Domingo Garcia 214-941-XXXX

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/you-know-who-likes-the-presidents-immigration-reform-plan-nobody-thats-who-7141760

Slavery is still immoral, even if it's called something else.

[lunamagica]

52. What does it matter where the link came from? It is true, or do you think they made it up?

Seriously?

[beam me up scottie]

54. See post #49.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9551296

I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Slavery by any other name is still slavery.

[lunamagica]

57. It had a path for citizenship! Don't you get that?

[George II]

125. See post #105.

Also, in what manner would passing that bill have constituted "slavery". It's easy to pin a word to a position, let's see your explanation of what that means.

Thank you.

[George II]

105. Each one of those yellow underlines is a link directly to the original source. Posting the...

....link lunamagica posted puts all the sources in one convenient place.

The first is a link to a story from AP
The second one is a link to a Lou Dobbs interview
The third, fourth, and fifth are links to a NY Times article, containing SEIU's Eliseo Medina's quote and other aspects of the vote
The fourth one is a link to a quote by Dolores Huerta characterizing the vote

Easy peasy. Thanks for the comprehensive list of sources on this matter, lunamagica.

[SunSeeker]

44. Wrong. That was a cloture motion. The bill never got a vote, thanks to anti-amnesty hysteria.

The same anti-amnesty hysteria Lou Dobbs was whipping up on his show that year (2007):

DOBBS: Those are all industries in which wages are declining. I don't hear that discussed on the Senate floor by the proponents of this amnesty legislation. 

SANDERS: That's right. They have no good response. I read something today that a lot of people coming into this country are coming in as lifeguards. I guess we can't find - that's right. We can't American workers to work as lifeguards. And the H1B program has teachers, elementary school teachers. Well, you know. 

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/12/10981234/bernie-sanders-lou-dobbs

[Progressive dog]

81. They're coming to take the lifeguard jobs

Very Senatorial answer to Dobbs. LOL

[George II]

100. Those 52 Senators didn't vote for the DREAM Act. From your link, this is what they voted for:

Question: On the Cloture Motion (Motion to Invoke Cloture on the Motion to Proceed to Consider S. 2205 )

The cloture motion failed.

There have been times (no, I'm not going to research it now) that Senators have voted FOR cloture and ultimately wound up voting AGAINST a particular bill.

[QC]

83. The resorts here in Florida are full of foreign "guest workers"

who are treated like shit. They are lured here with promises of glamorous, high-paying jobs but treated like sweatshop workers.

You really should look for a better talking point than this one. Indentured servitude is not a liberal value.

[SunSeeker]

85. J1 visas are for "cultural exchange," not cheap labor.

It was meant for temporary jobs like au pairs that allow young people from other countries to experience American culture. The fact that the J1 visa program is being abused by resorts and places like Mar-a-Lago was and is no reason to vote against comprehensive immigration reform. Instead, the program should be policed better so that there are not these abuses.

[SergeStorms]

9. Well, that's our preznit in a nutshell.

UGLY AND CRUEL

[beam me up scottie]

17. And BIGOTED.

[world wide wally]

16. Get it done!

[beam me up scottie]

19. The fight will be on the floor and it will be fierce.

It's good to see our senators getting out in front of it.

[mvd]

18. Thank you, Bernie!

I knew he would be one of the strong voices on this.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Of course he is! Now is the time to stand with Bernie.

And every other congressman, congresswoman and senator who is out there fighting Trump.

Trump wants us to fight and discredit our legislators, it will help the GOP defeat them on the floor, we need to stop giving them ammo.

[George Eliot]

27. What I admired about Bernie -he's so damn smart!

He did his homework.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Agreed! And he's on the front lines against Trump!

He hasn't stopped attacking Trump and the GOP and he won't.

[leftstreet]

37. DURec

[Autumn]

80. Donald Trump is a cruel ugly man. His one goal in life is to hurt those he despises.

This is the most disgusting thing he has done. My heart breaks.

[demmiblue]

84. K&R

Ignore is a wonderful feature, btw. I don't have time for people who choose not to come together in the face of the global threat called the Trump administration. I already feel like complete shite and totally sickened about the events that have transpired since (and before) his inauguration. We need to stick together!

[beam me up scottie]

91. You're right of course.

If Trump ending DACA isn't enough to convince people to unite against him then nothing will.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Well said, Bernie

[beam me up scottie]

108. Indeed he does!

[Lil Missy]

103. Well, it didn't take Bernie to figure that out.

That's a no brainer.

Just sayin'

[Initech]

110. And it's all out of spite for the previous president.

Fuck these fucking assholes.

[beam me up scottie]

111. EXACTLY.

Granted Trump is a racist, xenophobic piece of shit but this is more about undoing Obama's legacy than anything else.

[LostOne4Ever]

124. It's freaking sad that people can't get on the same page to fight for these kids

And would rather refight grudges just because Sanders name is on the bill.