In The End Trump Will Issue Pardons To Russiagate Participants Endng Mueller Investigation.

[TheMastersNemesis]

GOP will just stand by and throw hands in the air saying Trump has the right. Nothing will likely happen to Trump and collision participants. The Arpaio pardon signals that the rule of law only applies to anyone not a Republican or pro Trumper. It all means that civil rights and other violations will go unpunished.

[cilla4progress]

1. I can't believe this country

Would let that happen.

And yet again I do.

I do believe we are going to have to have another American revolution.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

53. Not gonna happen... I think even the Repukes would vote to impeach him if he did that.

[Angry Dragon]

2. Then the world will know he is guilty

[uponit7771]

13. He doesn't care

[Angry Dragon]

15. I just want him out and his business worthless

[BigmanPigman]

3. This is exactly what they said on the news tonight.

They said that he did this as a message to his buddies being investigated, basically telling the, "No worries, I've got your back".

[RKP5637]

49. He gave the white nationalists the signal that they are OK and he supports them. As well as telling

those being investigated not to worry. He is king, he supports them, and they will be off the hook. This country is in deep shit and so many in congress are complicit and complacent. Republicans are just dreadful individuals and the more I see, they are also un-American. Only a few speak up to Trump, The rest are just too wimpy or in league with Trump.

[Brother Buzz]

4. I don't believe a pardon exempts an individual from testifying

Hell, an individual emboldened with a pardon in their pocket might start dropping dimes all over the place.

[fallout87]

5. Yes it does.

He could actually pardon them prior to any testimony which would make it a waste of time.

[stopbush]

7. He can only pardon federal crimes.

I'm sure there are numerous state crimes he has committed for which he can be prosecuted.

[More_Cowbell]

8. Yes, the NY Attorney General won't stop

Schneiderman is determined that Trump will forfeit everything he has in criminal enterprise (the NY state version of RICO) charges.

[OliverQ]

56. But did Flynn, Manafort, etc. commit State crimes?

All his lackies will get away with their crimes.

[stopbush]

91. Maybe not, but tRump has committed state crimes.

He's the one I want to see in jail.

[fallout87]

92. Exactly

Unfortunately we are talking about federal crimes. He can, and probably will just pre-pardon them before the probe gets larger.

[Not Ruth]

18. Could Trump pre pardon people before he hires them?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. They still would have to testify.

However the 5th Amendment protects them from testifying against themselves.

[drray23]

90. no it does not.

Once you are pardoned, you lose your fifth amendment right to self incriminate. If you are then subpoenaed and you refuse you can land in prison for that since its a separate crime not connected to whatever you were pardoned for.

[Dustlawyer]

85. If they are Pardoned they can no longer plead the 5th.

They would have to testify to all they know and can still be prosecuted for perjury. Probably why he hasn't pardoned any of them yet.

[fishwax]

87. What's to stop him from pardoning them for contempt of court if they refuse to testify?

Yeah, would make the corruption evident to all but the most deranged supporters, but would that matter to congressional republicans?

[Dustlawyer]

88. Nothing except the pressure it would put on Republicans for this obvious obstruction.

[fishwax]

89. Not much comfort in that...

This almost seems like a trial run to test how much resistance there is to this kind of pardon.

Strange days, these.

[struggle4progress]

6. That would be obstruction of justice

[Kentonio]

39. Morally of course, but the constitution gives him free rein to pardon anyone he pleases.

It only becomes obstruction if congress push for impeachment and decide that. Want to put any bets on the GOP lapdogs inpeaching a Republican president?

[RKP5637]

50. I just don't think impeachment will happen, and the GOP will allow him to run rip-shit over the US.

Many in congress are just like Trump, so they will never stop him.

[Kentonio]

97. Me too.

[TheBlackAdder]

9. If Trump is forced to resign first, then any pardons would come from Pence.

[haveahart]

96. "Golden showers" video (if there is one) would make him resign. He is counting on Russia to

keep it hidden.

[JNelson6563]

10. Doesn't there need to be conviction before pardon?

And don't convictions come *after* investigations?

[BzaDem]

11. Pardons can be made before investigations, let alone convictions.

The power to pardon is near absolute. The only real constraint is that future conduct cannot be pardoned (though he could continuously pardon someone for repeating the same conduct as long as he remains in office). There is also an open question as to whether he can pardon himself. Beyond that he can do what he wants.

[uponit7771]

12. The state level prosecutors can take over after that

[Eyeball_Kid]

14. Pardons won't work.

1. Pardons require an admission of guilt. Pardons are only for federal crimes. NYAG will be issuing similar indictments. If a defendant has already admitted guilt, NY has an easy task.
2. Pardons require a pardoned person to be obliged to make sworn testimony because Fifth Amendment protections no longer exist. The pardonee becomes a witness and MUST testify under penalty of contempt or perjury (jail time).
3. If Trumpy is a co-defendant in a RICO indictment (both federal and NY), he cannot pardon co-defendants because he cannot pardon himself.

Granting pardons has its own pitfalls.

[grantcart]

20. Nixon didn't admit guilt nor make sworn testimony

Nothing in the constitution prohibits pardoning yourself

The power to pardon is one of the most absolute and least restrict powers given to the President.


Trump would be exposed to state and civil litigation even after pardon, if not by himself by Pence.

[Jarqui]

36. I do not think that's entirely accurate :

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-nixon-pardon-in-retrospect-40-years-later

At a 2014 panel discussion, Ford’s lawyer during that period, Benton Becker, explained another part of the President’s motivation was a 1915 Supreme Court decision, Burdick v. United States, which made Nixon accept his guilt in the Watergate controversy by also accepting the pardon.

The Court’s ruling in Burdick was that a pardon carried an "imputation of guilt" and accepting a pardon was "an admission of guilt.” Becker said he took copies of the Burdick decision to California when he met with former President Nixon, and under Ford’s instructions, he walked through the Burdick decision with Nixon.

Becker said the discussion with Nixon was very difficult, and the former President kept trying to change the subject way from Burdick until he acknowledged Becker’s discussion about what the Supreme Court decision meant.

After he left the White House, Ford carried part of the Burdick decision with him in his wallet in case someone brought up the pardon. In a later interview with Woodward for Caroline Kennedy’s book, “Profiles in Courage for Our Time,” Ford pulled out the dog-eared decision and read the key parts of it to Woodward.

40 years after the disgraced president resigned, his tapes reveal (admission of) guilt
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2014-08-11/news/bs-ed-witcover-0812-20140811_1_guilt-white-house-minority-leader

On the 40th anniversary of Richard Nixon's resignation as president, his admission of guilt has finally been made public in a 1983 videotaped interview with him by an old White House aide.

Speaking of the "smoking gun" White House tape in which he talked about raising hush money for the arrested Watergate burglars, Nixon tells aide Frank Gannon: "This was the final blow, the nail in the coffin. Although you didn't need another nail if you were already in the coffin, which we were."

Then he goes on: "I'm a fighter, I just didn't want to quit. Also I thought it would be an admission of guilt, which of course it was." It is a flat statement that up to then he had been unwilling to make, even in his much-ballyhooed televised interview with David Frost after leaving office.

[grantcart]

48. Nice homework but you missed the point of the thread

The sub poster was writing that pardons don't work because they require a PRIOR admission of guilt.

Nixon didn't provide a prior admission of guilt. You can argue, as you do, that accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt, but it isn't a PRIOR admission of guilt.

If you argue that accepting a pardon is an IMPLICIT admission of guilt that is a nice argument but the fact is that the pardon worked.

More to the point is that if you read the constitution there is no requirement for an admission of guilt but that you are making a logical statement: If someone accepts a pardon they have to agree the need for the pardon must mean that they are guilty of something but are not required to articulate what.

In Nixon's case the pardon covered not only crimes that were already in hand but also any possible future allegations "has committed or may have committed".

Accepting a pardon does not require an admission of guilt and Nixon never admitted guilt. Arguing that it implies guild is a different subject but it is a subject that only takes effect after the pardon has taken effect. Pardons are one of the few actions that a President can take that is written to make it absolute and irreversible.

To put it another way if someone receives a pardon and says "I accept the pardon even though I didn't do anything", there would be no legal recourse to undo the pardon. If the pardon is given and accepted there is no course for appeal or reversal. Another reason that people should be careful about who they make President.

[Jarqui]

99. I do not agree.

The post above said "Nixon didn't admit guilt"

Again, I do not agree - there is legitimate question to the accuracy of those words.

Actions speak louder than words.

On instructions from President Ford, Becker presented to Nixon what the Supreme Court Burdick decision meant - so that Nixon understood that accepting a pardon was an admission of guilt. After some time trying to evade the point of Becker raising the case, Becker maintains Nixon acknowledged and accepted what it meant. In doing so, he admitted his guilt.

Since he did this before he got the pardon, it was a prior admission of guilt.

The top post in this thread raised this:

"In The End Trump Will Issue Pardons To Russiagate Participants Endng Mueller Investigation.

GOP will just stand by and throw hands in the air saying Trump has the right. Nothing will likely happen to Trump and collision participants. The Arpaio pardon signals that the rule of law only applies to anyone not a Republican or pro Trumper. It all means that civil rights and other violations will go unpunished."

where "admission of guilt" (or not admitting guilt) and when they did so (prior) is not "the point of the thread" that you claim.

Nixon proceeding with accepting a pardon after acknowledging Burlick was a prior admission of guilt. We do not have that on video tape so there's some room for uncertainty but the account seems pretty solid historically as Nixon himself followed that up that reasoning with his interview in 1983.

[Kablooie]

16. This is what I expect too.

Republicans will do nothing to stop him.
They are terrified of Trump's idiot base and let them decide everything for the party.

But if Democrats take over the government the fact that Trump pardoned them could be part of the basis for impeachment.

[RKP5637]

44. The GOP should really change it's name. It's not the old republican party. This new party

is working to take down the US. It needs a name more fitting. It's become quite clear they basically represent the deplorables and Trump is the leader of their gang.

[greeny2323]

17. LOL

Your posts are always so relentlessly negative.

[BannonsLiver]

22. +1

Sigh..finally someone says it.

[flibbitygiblets]

42. Lol. Your DU name

[blue neen]

24. Yep. Clearly meant to lower morale around here.

These daily durges are getting old.

[Squinch]

55. This is a really unfair accusation.

[FreepFryer]

83. +1. (n/t)

[Squinch]

52. LOL. Which means that lately they are relentlessly correct. Call me a pessimist or a realist, it

really doesn't matter, but Nemesis is right.

Trump(R) is going to attempt this. Whether he is successful or not remains to be seen.

[SammyWinstonJack]

63. IKR?

[FreepFryer]

66. +1! Thank you! (n/t)

[world wide wally]

19. USI USI USI

united states of impotency

[RKP5637]

45. And also US equals United Stupidity! n/t

[yuiyoshida]

21. Then most likely will declare himself King and rename this country TRUMPIA

Give him time after he pardons himself.

[still_one]

26. If he tried to pardon himself, that would go to the SC.

[yuiyoshida]

28. How many Republicans on that court?

I lost count.

[still_one]

29. It is 4 to 4 with essentially Kennedy the swing vote, however, if a President actually tried to

pardon himself, I can see Kennedy and Roberts arguing that it wouldn't be Constitutional.

The founding fathers believed in a system of Checks and Balances, and the act of pardoning oneself would violate that.

In fact, I would not be surprised to see a 9 to 0 vote against it.

However, most likely he would try to arrange it so Pence would pardon him if it came to that.

This is why 2018 is so critical that we take back the majority in at least one of the houses. If we were able to have the majority in both houses, we could stop this nightmare.

[RKP5637]

46. I don't think the founding fathers thought someone like Trump would come along. There seem to

be few guidelines and protections to prevent a jerk like Trump and a compliant congress from destroying the US.

[arthritisR_US]

23. Amurika, the loudest banana republic.

[RKP5637]

47. ... with the most nukes and a lunatic at the helm. Scary! n/t

[Vinca]

25. Jill Wine-Banks, who was a Watergate prosecutor, said if he issues pardons to stop the investigation

before charges are filed, it would backfire because anyone he pardons would then have to give testimony under oath. Since Don only cares about himself, it would be in his best interest to allow other people to be prosecuted to keep their mouths shut for quite a long time. If he issues pardons, he could end up being the big fish in the net. If he waits to pardon after a conviction, it means there is testimony under oath and on record that can be used against him. He's in a lose-lose situation since the underlings aren't the primary target anyway.

[still_one]

30. I also think if trump tried to pardon himself that would be ruled as unConstitutional because it

destroys the concept of checks and balances, which are what this country was founded upon

At least that is how I think it would be argued

[Vinca]

31. That's what I would think, too. Then it's a question whether the loyal lapdog Pence

pardons him . . . assuming Pence hasn't already gone down with the ship.

[still_one]

32. We couldn't get around that, but I also wonder how loyal Pence would be to trump.

[Vinca]

33. Hard to say. It all hinges on who would vote for Pence in 2020.

The whole thing could backfire spectacularly if the Trump humpers go off in a snit and form another party and run a candidate. Could Trump run if he'd been impeached or charged with a crime and Pence gave him a pardon? It's all so confusing. More like a script from "House of Cards" than our current circumstance.

[DeminPennswoods]

38. I sure wouldn't count on Pence helping me

He seems like the kind of person who throw you under the bus fast if it meant saving himself.

[Louis1895]

35. I agree

I do not think you can sit in judgement of yourself.

If you can, then the form of government is called "dictatorship".

[DeminPennswoods]

37. That point was one not many would have known

Also, not sure if it was Jill Wine-Banks or another former US atty, but one said that this pardon would be more evidence showing Trump's mindset as willfully disregarding the courts/rule of law as the prosecutors seek to establish "corrupt intent" for obstruction of justice.

To me the underlying reasoning would be that Arpaio is 84, has no prior arrests, the max sentence of 6 mos and the unlikihood of serving much, if any, of that in jail.

[leftynyc]

27. I don't think so

He opens himself to obstruction of justice charges. If that doesn't stop him, Eric schneiderman will take care of him. He would also be giving up his fifth amendment protections as would ivanka and Jared if they accept a pardon. He's no king and congress - even one run by his own party - will not allow him to behave as if he is. If congress sees Donnie taking away their power by trashing the party, they will run him over with a bus, back up and do it again. They owe him nothing.

[Kentonio]

40. How is it opening him up to obstruction of justice charges?

The pardon power is near absolute. He could get impeached on obstruction of justice grounds maybe, but no federal prosecutor could charge him on those ground, it'd never work. The state route seems the only possible chance other than impeachement if we win congress back next year.

[leftynyc]

103. its absolute UNLESS

It appears he trying to obstruct the investigation where HE is the target. Why wouldn't a federal envestigator do it. they'd be pretty pissed he's messing with the justice system. Don't be so sure the republican stand by this slug if he starts dragging down the party. He has very few friends in congress.

[Kentonio]

104. Last I checked, the constitution just says 'except in cases of impeachment'.

I do agree with you though that the GOP could turn on him, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

[JustAnotherGen]

34. I think Trump

Is very lucky my dad died in 2011. That written there may be others out there like him who feel they have nothing to lose other than to fall to the Russians.

[Kentonio]

41. This has been the likely outcome ever since the Russia thing started.

The pardon power is ridiculous, its a clear breach of checks and balances and hands one man the power to basically subvert justice. If only one good thing comes out of this whole mess, it should be that power being severely restrained to avoid this kind of situation ever rearing its ugly head again. Right now there's not even any guarantee that he couldn't pardon himself, which is utterly ridiculous.

[FreepFryer]

43. Another doom-and-gloom thread from Nemesis. Ritual seppuku anyone?

We still aren't discouraged.

[njhoneybadger]

54. It is what it is

Why attack the messenger

[FreepFryer]

57. We are not discouraged.

[Squinch]

59. I am. Have you read a paper lately? Nemesis is positing an outcome that is very possible.

As he always does.

I'll second the poster who asked you why you're blaming the messenger.

[FreepFryer]

63. OP posits this as a done deal. It's not. He frames us as powerless. We're not.

It's that simple.

[Squinch]

67. Again, you are accusing a trustworthy, long term poster of something sinister and you are dead wrong

[FreepFryer]

69. Please don't spam w duplicate posts. See my reply at post 68.

[Squinch]

72. Please don't accuse trustworthy long term posters of trying to bring down morale. And if you

don't want to have the same thing said to you over and over, stop accusing Nemesis of the same thing over and over.

[FreepFryer]

73. See my post 71 for my reply. Again, no need for you to spam accusations. (n/t)

[Squinch]

75. And no need for you to spam accusations either.

[FreepFryer]

76. I didn't, but I appreciate your desire to foster community. please see post 71. Thanks. (n/t)

[Squinch]

77. You clearly did.

[FreepFryer]

78. Actually, I didn't. But it's not my job to police your views, nor yours to police mine. Cheers.

[Squinch]

79. And yet, you did.

[FreepFryer]

80. Didn't.

[njhoneybadger]

86. I am discouraged

I think the party is not putting the time,money,and planning into the 2018 elections. That's how we get rid of him.

[fallout87]

93. You are right...

Instead we are focusing on the endless distractions.

Let's please give up on the ridiculous notion that Republicans are going to impeach Rump. Not going to happen. Period.

The only way is the get back the senate and house. And it's a heavy lift.

[Squinch]

58. Seriously. That's the third I've seen in this thread. What, are they expecting sunshine and

roses from Trump(R)?

The worst we can imagine is the least he will do.

[FreepFryer]

61. Fear-mongering posts that frame it as a done deal and us as powerless won't work.

We know our power.

We have opposed, and will continue to oppose, the rise of American fascism.

[Squinch]

65. You are accusing a trustworthy, long-term poster of something sinister. You are dead wrong. So stop.

[FreepFryer]

68. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Respectfully, it's not your place to tell me what to do.

3, or 4 people calling out negativist sentiments now, on this thread alone? Glad I'm not the only one complaining.

[Squinch]

70. Yes, you are accusing him of trying to bring down morale. At least own what you are doing.

And again, you are wrong.

[FreepFryer]

71. No I'm not. Sincere Thanks for having DU's best interest at heart though... I do as well. Cheers.

[Ohiya]

51. Drumpf fucks up again!

He has shown his hand too early. He is up against very smart people who want nothing better than to see him go down. He's like a smarter than average teenager, who thinks he's the smartest person ever. He is not smart enough to have any idea how dumb he really is.

[FreepFryer]

82. I like this interpretation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. They still would have to testify.

However the 5th Amendment protects them from testifying against themselves

[MrsCoffee]

74. Nope.

He is gonna be seriously fucked by the NY AG.

The daily sky is falling pronouncements are getting a bit silly.

[FreepFryer]

81. +1. (n/t)

[smirkymonkey]

84. Look on the bright side.

He could always die in office. He's not a healthy man and all this stress has to be getting to him.

[delisen]

94. George HW Bush similar shut down Iran-contra investigation

This is the Republican Party in action. Now we can look back and see the pattern. Republicans use power differently than Democrats.

Democrats see themselves as serving the Constitution and the institutions of the US.
Republicans see themselves as as dominating the Constitution and our institutions-the Constitution is to them a tool for achieving the aims of a relatively small power group.

Today we see the Russia Connection; under Reagan/Bush it was an Iranian Connection.

What kind of president would sell arms to the repressive Iranian forces who held our diplomats hostage for a year, and then use the money to help repressive forces in South America?

Answer: Ronald Reagan/George Herbert Walker Bush

Ronald Reagan was never brought to account because he claimed ignorance, and everyone bought that excuse ---basically an excuse that he was too ignorant to know what his staff and cabinet members were up to.

Bush protected himself by issuing a pardon, under cover of the the Christmas holiday, to former Secy of Defense, Casper Weinberger

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/29/reviews/iran-pardon.html?mcubz=1

Six years after the arms-for-hostages scandal began to cast a shadow that would darken two Administrations, President Bush today granted full pardons to six former officials in Ronald Reagan's Administration, including former Defense Secretary Caspar W. Weinberger.

Mr. Weinberger was scheduled to stand trial on Jan. 5 on charges that he lied to Congress about his knowledge of the arms sales to Iran and efforts by other countries to help underwrite the Nicaraguan rebels, a case that was expected to focus on Mr. Weinberger's private notes that contain references to Mr. Bush's endorsement of the secret shipments to Iran.

In one remaining facet of the inquiry, the independent prosecutor, Lawrence E. Walsh, plans to review a 1986 campaign diary kept by Mr. Bush. Mr. Walsh has characterized the President's failure to turn over the diary until now as misconduct.

What Trump has done in pardoning Arpaio is nothing new to Republicans. In fact Weinberger was indicted and about to stand trial-not even convicted.

In contrast George W. Bush did not pardon Scooter Libby (Cheney's aide) for outing CIA agent Valerie Plane) presumably as part of a plot to discredit her spouse, whose evidence-based writings cast doubt on the reasons being give for invading Iraq. However he did commute his prison sentence.

[workinclasszero]

95. I think after the Arpaio pardon

It's crystal clear that Trump will pardon his nest of Russian traitors and his entire crime family up to and including himself if that is possible in the end.

[RKP5637]

98. Exactly! Arpaio was a trial balloon, and of course he wanted too. The US appears powerless

against Trump's pardons. Our flounders made some errors in having given a president this much power. Of course, they likely never expected as ass like Trump to come along.

[Jarqui]

100. Like others, it strikes me as another heinous act by Trump

designed to bolster his minions who may be crumbling under the pressure of the various investigations into Russia, etc that are going on.

It reminds me a little of the law going after Al Capone. Who would have thought the gangster behind the St Valentine's Massacre and other organized crime and murders would go to Alcatraz for tax evasion? As others have said, they can get him at the state level, snatch his assets and then not even the GOP can save him because he's a convicted criminal.

Eventually, the GOP will wake up to the idea with Arpaio that pardoning someone who is so guilty is not such a hot idea. To politically survive, the GOP need to make inroads on the growing Latino vote in places like Texas. Trumps actions against Mexicans, the wall, immigration policies, the Latino judge and now freeing a man who flagrantly violated Latio rights year after year is going to cost those supporting Trump votes.

The GOP seem to just be getting uglier as their grip on power is inevitably slipping away. Their racist platform has no long term future.

[still_one]

101. No it won't, and while he could very well pardon anyone who is found involved in criminal activity,

It won't save him because he won't be able to pardon himself, and if that comes I do not think the republicans would throw him under the bus because of the damage he is doing to them

[Blue_Tires]

102. He can't pardon himself, though

[JI7]

105. i think people still have questions about this but i don't think it's a sure thing that he can't.

but the one area where he can't pardon is when it comes to states going after him and others. he only has power over federal level.