Florida state representative rails against bill requiring handicap-accessible swimming pools

[Tony_FLADEM]

You know what really grinds Rep. Allen West's (R.-Fla) gears? Things that make people's lives easier by enabling them to do things they couldn't do before. Like, for instance, a recent Florida regulation that requires all public pools, spas, and hot tubs to be handicap-accessible with permanent lifts. Rep. Allen West is angry about this law. He's probably as angry about it as he would be if someone, say, invented a low-cost and risk-free home teleportation device, or a machine that lets you eat anything you want without gaining weight, or anything that would greatly contribute to the quality of others' lives.

http://www.nerve.com/news/politics/florida-state-representative-rails-against-handicap-accessible-swimming-pools

[pipoman]

1. A mandate such as this

would cost thousands...money not noticed by large pools in affluent neighborhoods. On small, not so well funded pools in poorer neighborhoods, it would undoubtedly result in pool closures. I can see a mandate for new construction or even pools undergoing serious renovation.

I am all for accessibility. New construction, etc. I am not for budget breaking compliance mandates on existing pools which results in deprivation of far more people than the mandate would benefit. If the mandate must be placed, it should be funded by grants for the operators, no funding-no compliance mandate until/unless the pool is being otherwise updated or newly built.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

2. I agree 100% n/t

[WillowTree]

13. Not to mention the additional liability that the pool owner takes on because of the lift.

The lift has to be kept in such a way as kids can't hurt themselves playing on/with it.

And then, of course, each one of these pools has to have someone on duty whenever the pool is open who knows how to operate the lift.

And I wonder if the law states that the pool owers have to have someone on staff whenever the pool is open who is qualified to assist anyone of any age or size and with any type of disability requiring the lift.

It isn't just the cost of purchasing and maintaining things like these lifts that's involved. There are a plethora of other expenses and considerations that the people who pass these laws never think of or care about.

And all for something that a given pool may never have occasion to use.

[Lochloosa]

28. My step-son is being hired to install these. They are expensive.

[MineralMan]

33. Not really. The equipment starts at about $4000, and installation

is not that big a chore. Here's a link. You can see 10 different ADA-compliant lifts there. None over $7000. All meet ADA-standards.

The cost is just an excuse.

http://www.livewellmedical.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=290_294&zenid=ik35c8at1gbgl8rcfkvu38h2g5

[KrashTestDumby]

3. Too Little, Too Late

It doesn't matter much if the Florida law is repealed, or not. The Americans with Disabilities Act already mandates lifts and other accessibility standards and requirements of pools for both Title II (governments, e.g. cities/state) and Title III (private/commercial, e.g. hotels) entities.

Any new pools built after March 15, 2012 must meet the 2010 updated ADA standards. Any pools built prior to March 15, 2012 have until January 31, 2013 to comply.

Federal Law trumps laws by the state and/or political subdivisions, thanks to something called the Constitution of the United States; specifically, the "Supremacy Clause" (Article VI, paragraph 2). State/local laws can add more requirements that make pools more accessible.

[Pab Sungenis]

4. Welcome to DU.

Hope you stick around.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

5. Then many pools will shut down, as they won't be able to afford the changes

Will that make everyone happy?

[MineralMan]

32. ADA-compliant pool lifts start under $4000.

Who won't be able to afford that who has a public pool?

Here's a $4000 one:



Easy to install, and can be operated completely by the individual who is using it. No attendant is necessary.

Cost is not a valid objection. It's not that high. See my post further down the thread for a link to one supplier of these lifts.

[libinnyandia]

6. The article is misleading. He is actually a US Rep, not a state Rep.

[Paulie]

7. NPR story on this topic

http://m.npr.org/story/156326045?url=/2012/07/06/156326045/despite-delays-chair-lifts-coming-to-public-pools

[elehhhhna]

8. I think this is a bad idea.

If you can't get into or out of the pool by yourself, it's a danger to yourself and others for you to be in it in the first place. I say this as a pool owner (18K gallons - it's big).

[SickOfTheOnePct]

9. Yep n/t

[CreekDog]

10. no disabled people in the pool, got it

thanks for your exclusive opinion.

also you're wrong about safety.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

11. Fair enough

Then please explain how someone that can't get in and out of a pool by themselves is going to ensure that they are safe while in the water?

[MineralMan]

19. Generally, people with that level of disability have someone who can assist them.

In other cases, the entity that owns the pool conducts regular aquatic exercise sessions, complete with competent people. Aquatic exercise is extremely helpful to people who have bad arthritis and other ailments. In addition, we have lots and lots of veterans these days with injuries that have required amputation. They also benefit from swimming pools.

Almost no persons with disabilities will be using the pool without someone to assist them. However, if no pools are available for them to use, they will not have equal access, which is guaranteed by the ADA, and rightly so. Building a public pool? Make it handicapped accessible. It's the law. Private pools, not open to the public, will not have to do this. Just pools that are open to the public, including hotel and motel pools, and government-operated pools.

[pipoman]

44. Thus the problem

if it was only about, "Building a public pool? Make it handicapped accessible.", there would be no argument. What about the 20 year old pool at the hotel that is just making it? Retro mandates should not be allowed without funding for compliance.

[elehhhhna]

12. Didn't SAY disbaled, said people who can neither enter or exit a pool

probably should avoid a pool.

JUST SAYIN.

I also wouldn't rent a motorbike to a legally blind person.

Don't act like I'm advocating the Final Solution, here, bub.

[CreekDog]

14. You just argued against any other way of entering and exiting a pool than with one's legs

how many disabled veterans would you keep out of the pools?

don't act like you're tolerant of disabled people when you just mocked, inaccurately the idea that they can safely use an accessible pool.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

16. No one mocked anyone or anything

A valid question was asked, and I'm still interested in the answer, namely, how is someone that can't get in and out of a pool by themselves going to ensure that they are safe while in the water?

[CreekDog]

17. through an accessible entry!!! which you and another here are arguing against!

ignorance of what you said and the topic as a whole doesn't make you an authority on the topic.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

21. I'm sorry you're frustrated, but you aren't answering the question

Once a person enters the pool through the accessible entry, and they're out in the water, how are they safe on their own?

The accessible entry gets them into the water, but does nothing, zero, zilch, nada to protect them once they are in the water. Unless, of course, you're assuming that they're just going to sit on the lift in the water and do nothing else.

[gollygee]

25. Not being able to support your weight on your legs doesn't mean not being able to swim

The whole buoyancy thing helps. People could need a walker to move around but have no problem propelling themselves in the water.

Though I think I'd make the law apply to new pools or major renovations, as it would simply close a lot of public pools, particularly in areas without as much money.

[MineralMan]

27. People who cannot use the pool won't come to the pool.

My mother-in-law's aquatic exercise class also has a woman in it who is wheel-chair bound. She gets wheeled into the pool. Then, she swims laps, even though she can't stand and walk out of the water. The exercise keeps muscle tone in her legs, even though they can't support her out of the water. There are many levels of disability. At some point, going in the pool won't be useful or enjoyable for them. People who have reached that point won't be interested in coming to the pool.

I don't think you understand the issue very well.

[WillowTree]

22. No one's saying that no pools should have the lifts.

But many people think it's unreasonable to require all pools not in someone's back yard have them.

[mentalsolstice]

20. I guess if you need a lift to enter an automobile

You shouldn't be allowed to drive? Okeydokey...

[WillowTree]

24. No, but every public parking lot shouldn't be required to provide the lifts, either.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

26. Invalid comparison, since vehicles equipped with hand controls address this specific issue

But there is nothing in an open pool that keeps a person safe, even a fully enabled one. If a person can't get in and out of the water by themselves, what happens once they're in the water? What if their hand slips from the side of the pool? If they don't have the mobility to enter and exit the pool on their own, how are they going to be safe once the assistive technology has gotten them into the water?

[MineralMan]

34. All ADA-compliant pools lifts can be operated fully by the

person using the lift. The controls are on the seat. An additional set of controls is on the lift itself, so it can be operated either way. That's part of the ADA requirements. It's good to do a little research before making such statements.

http://www.livewellmedical.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=290_294&zenid=ik35c8at1gbgl8rcfkvu38h2g5

[CreekDog]

36. thank you

for trying.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

37. I too want to thank MineralMan for trying

He offered up good explanations and enlightened me on the issue, as opposed to just beating his head against the wall in frustration.

Thank you MineralMan!

[MineralMan]

39. It's always worth learning the facts.

Thanks for looking.

[MineralMan]

38. No problem.

I guess some people can't see the reason for this, and come up with all sorts of excuses for not accommodating everyone.

At the prices for those lifts, they're hardly a burden at all. I assume you looked at my link. Not expensive, really, compared to the other costs of a pool.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. We have a dear friend who has been a paraplegic for over 40 years

He loves to swim. It's great therapy for him as well. And yes, he needs help getting in and out of the pool.

[MineralMan]

15. Public pools should be accessible to all of the public.

For example, my 84-year-old mother-in-law cannot get in and out of a regular pool. She uses a walker. One of the things that has kept her mobile has been aquatic exercise at the local community center. It doesn't have a lift or hoist. What it has is a zero depth shallow end entrance. M-I-L enters the pool on a very gradual incline, walker and all. The pool does, however, also have a hydraulic lift, so she'll continue to be able to get exercise, even when she's unable to walk in under her own steam.

There is a reason for these regulations. Public pools must have access for the public, not just the public they want to give access to, but the entire public.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

18. I agree 100% for public (i.e., government) pools

City, state or federally operated pools, etc. I don't agree that this should be a mandate for privately owned pools, such as hotels, apartment complexes, and HOA community pools.

[MineralMan]

23. Sadly, you don't get what you wanted. Anyone covered under ADA

will have to build in these features. And that includes the places you mentioned. The owners will benefit from it, too. Hotels, motels, etc. have people with handicaps staying at them. An accessible pool will help attract that business. Same thing for HOA pools. It's an amenity. Amenities sell things.

If the public can use the pool, all of the public has to be able to use the pool. It's that simple. Read the ADA. Public accommodations are public accommodations, and are subject to ADA regulations. Period.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

40. Not all HOA pools are required to do this, nor are all apartment complexes

I agree that it makes good business sense, if left as an option. I don't agree that it makes good business sense in all cases.

I'm going to check with our HOA to see what the plans are for our community pool.

[CreekDog]

35. What makes your OPINION more important than the law, ADA?

you just decree by fiat that you think something that is legally mandated, should just, poof, not be required anymore?

you don't even know the law, you don't know the technology, you don't know anything about the issue --and yet, you are making some pronouncement you'd like to have implemented.

if you don't know anything about an issue, isn't that reason to study it and THEN, develop an opinion on it?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

41. Where did I say my opinion was more important that than the law?

I stated an opinion, and I stand by it. If you think that my opinion has the weight to make something legally mandated, poof, not be required anymore, than you are way overestimating the power of opinion, mine or anyone elses.

I don't believe in forcing private entities to do things that may result in the service, in this case a pool, being shut down for everyone. I don't know if that will happen, but I'm guessing that in at least some cases, it will, especially in poorer areas.

And if that's OK with you, fine - you're welcome to your opinion, just as I'm welcome to mine.

[progressivebydesign]

46. totally agree with you.

I don't think they should be required of private pools. Unless the govt plans to pay for them to be installed, and assumes liability for injuries due to accidents involving the lifts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Allen West is a Congressman, NOT a state rep

[MineralMan]

30. Here's a link to a place that sells ADA-compliant

swimming pool lifts. They start at under $4000. Installation of these is very simple. It's not all that much money, so it doesn't pose that much of a cost on the public pool owner.

$4000. No big deal. Pools are very expensive amenities. An additional $4000 won't break anyone's budget if a pool is a part of their public property.

Case Closed.

http://www.livewellmedical.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=290_294&zenid=ik35c8at1gbgl8rcfkvu38h2g5

Here's one of the under-$4000 lifts. The most expensive one is about $6500.



Go have a look.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

42. Thank you for the info

Much appreciated.

[RockaFowler]

43. I knew it was him before I opened this page

I just received a flyer from him asking ME to vote for him. Is he out of his mind?? It went right to the garbage. It's in there now with the dog shit and shrimp shells. Right where he belongs. My God we need to get this guy out of office today!!!!

[progressivebydesign]

45. this isn't as black and white as it seems.

there are similar laws proposed in other States, or about to take effect.

While no one wants to limit access to anyone, regardless of their abilities, these laws are often over-reaching. Many public pools have facilities that will accommodate people who need help getting into the pool. But to require every private pool to have expensive equipment, that actually makes the pool more dangerous for others, is not the best way to handle this.

These type of laws will actually lessen the availability of pools for all people, as clubs, cities, apartments, will simple drain the pools rather than comply. Permanent lifts are not cheap, and pose a hazard to other swimmers around the pool.

I would rather see funding to create more accessible pools in public places, the same as buses have lifts.. but no one requires taxis or shuttles to have them in the private industry.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

47. I got an e-mail reply from our HOA regarding this after I contacted the HOA president today

"All of this info will be in the end of season newsletter, but the short and quick is, we're chaning our memberships rules so that we won't be required to comply. Effective next season, we'll stop soliciting and no longer accept pool membership applications from anyone that is not a member of the HOA. By limiting memberships to HOA members only, we will incur a small loss of revenue, but that will be more than offset by eliminating the requirement for costly compliance measures. Given the size and shape of our pool, we would have been required to have two points of entry. The cost of purchase, installation and maintenance, as well as the increase in insurance premiums led us to decide it wasn't worth it."

Our HOA may well be the exception, but somehow, I doubt it.

[thomasclark]

48. Reply

Yes Ofcourse ADA declared that all pools which constructed before 15 march 2012 will not affected by the rules of ADA but now after that every pool constructor have to follow it.