Did Six Flags Go too far?

[Catmusicfan]

I am asking this NOT to cause anyone pain or anger. I have this honest debate inside me.

Anyone know the history behind the use of Six Flags?

It represented the various powers that ruled over the land we call Texas now. I always thought it was a cool way to sneak history into an amusement park. And before I go any further --I have never been inside the amusement park so I don't know the theme or anything.


Yes, we do have an ugly past. Yes, we are flawed as a people (and I am referring to White Privilege.) but do we disappear our history completely?

for the record I try to be color blind when seeing people. I don't try and make judgements on people based on what they look like but based on their actions. I like to think I am doing a good job but history will judge me as well as my fellow world citizens.

We need to listen to history...maybe we did listen to it we wouldn't have Trump now.

Anyways, yes the monuments to confederate war heroes was a way to harm and oppress the minorities. A quiet reminder that they are still under the thumb --sort of speaking.

Yes, the founding fathers where flawed themselves. If you look at a lot of their private papers a lot of them voiced their frustration at the issue with talking about men created equal and slavery.

Yes, Jefferson with as brilliant as he was had some stupid narrow-minded views when it came to African Americans ( that they are not as smart.)

What I worry about --and maybe it is my passion of the subject of history--is that we are so busy trying to fix our past we don't bother to learn from it.

For he record I identify myself as an American First than I identify myself as a person of Italian& Lebanese decent ( My parents are divorce and I was reared by my mother whose father's nationality was Italian and her mother's nationality was Lebanese --If fact that was the culture I was the most expose too.) For the record my Dad is "Heinz's 57 variety" meaning he has ancestors from all different countries. basically the melting pot this country claims to be.

Maybe this is the time we come together and celebrate the different cultures that brought us all to this country's shores AND while we are at it. Apologize for basically talking over the native American's land. Perhaps it is time to bring the native Americans nations into the way we run our government.

and yes I am rambling and probably sounding like a fucking nut case at best. but I am looking at all these talking heads and all this it's this fault it's that's fault BUT what I am not seeing is the idea that yes, there are wrong in our culture but let us fix it.

I also don't want us to see history with all it's flaws be disappeared to fix it.

[Weekend Warrior]

1. "do we disappear our history completely? "

There can be no debating something that starts in that manner. I am not seeing any calls to shut down the thousand(s) of civil war museums in the south. Those are education centers. I'm not seeing calls to change history books to remove accurate history. Again, education centers.

No one is trying to "disappear our history completely".

[Catmusicfan]

6. Six flags quickly changing all the flags to American ones

out of fear of being protested. Maybe it is the area I am living in now and the people listening to Limbaugh and the rest who want to start looking at every figure in history. It starts with one call--which is a rightful call--but I don't want it to become a steamroller.

[Demsrule86]

12. I do...take down the shite that reminds people to hate or the victims of such hate that it still

exists... we can read a history book.

[Weekend Warrior]

17. I don't see the relevance in the theme park making a business decision...

and erasing history completely. I also don't see a rash of people going to the courthouse to marry their pets.

"I try to be color blind when seeing people." I think that might be a big part of the problem here. As is listening to ditto heads.

[Ken Burch]

31. Should the change the name to "Same Flag, Six Times"?

n/t.

[Demsrule86]

13. I would also add that this is a Trumpian and right wing theme.

I don't agree with it.

[Aristus]

2. As with the statues and what they represent, anyone who wants to know how many political

entities governed Texas in its history is welcome to open a history textbook.

Preferably not one used in Texas' public schools, since they tend to be wildly inaccurate about anything negative in the history of the state.

[Catmusicfan]

3. How many did open a history book after visiting or seeing a picture of six flags?

[Aristus]

7. Not me. But I was five the last time I visited Six Flags.

The original. The one in Texas. Before it became a franchise.

[GulfCoast66]

32. You truly do not want schools kids to learn

A states history, including all the political entities that at various times governed Texas. I could not care less about 6 flags by unless I read incorrectly you do want to stop teaching true history.

[Jim Beard]

34. Sounds like creationism to me. Just skip a lot of stuff to you can fit a time frame.

[Aristus]

45. I'm not sure I followed that, but whatever...

n/t

[stopbush]

4. Six Flags is a privately held commercial venture. It's not a government enterprise.

The decision to theme the park after six flags and to include the Confederate flag as one of those flags was a MARKETING decision. Nothing more, nothing less.

Marketing is a tool that is used to increase the revenue of a business. If a marketing idea stops working or has the opposite effect for which it was intended, then that idea is scrapped and something else is tried.

If Six Flags was smart, they would get out ahead of the firestorm, quietly retire that flag and come up with something else. It's marketing. The options are myriad. If they aren't smart, they'll wait until business starts dropping off, at which point they'll be forced to get rid of the symbol.

[Demsrule86]

9. It is now retired.

[Catmusicfan]

11. Yes, I realize it is not held by the government. BUT that commerical venture

could have taken this as marketing fear ( thinking their business would be hurt by all this backlash) and found a way to remarket the amusement park in a smart way. But If a private company so afraid of blowback doesn't what corporate America spread throughout this country.

[LeftInTX]

26. All Six Flags are now American flags

Decision made yesterday

[lapfog_1]

5. It always struck me as being odd

to be so proud that your state was either a real pushover militarily or couldn't decide what country to belong to.

I mean, really, conquered by France, Spain, and Mexico? A brief time as an independent nation only to beg the US for membership so you to throw off the Mexicans? only to reverse course and join the Confederacy.

WTF

[dalton99a]

10. +1

[Yupster]

20. Texas is an interesting example of the world back then

First, Texas was hardly conquered by the French. They opened a colony on Matagorda Bay which was killed off by the local natives within a few years.

Same with Mexico. They inherited the land from Spain and were kicked out by the Texas Revolution.

Anyway, if you were a Texan born in 1820, you were born under Spanish rule, then Mexican, Then as a teenager you became part of independent Texas which joined the US in your 30's and now in your 40's Texas voted 80 % to join the Confederacy. You just wouldn't have seen voting to leave the US as that big a deal. No one said when Texas joined the union that they could never leave again. Why would they think that? They sure didn't expect to get stomped when they did.

[ProfessorGAC]

23. Question On Your Third To Last Sentence

I hear that said by Confederate revisionists. But, the preponderance of those times, the speaker is a strict constructionist.
So, I'm baffled by that contradiction.
If the Constitution doesn't specifically enumerate a path to secession, wouldn't a strict constructionist have to assume a state cannot just up and leave the union?

[Yupster]

30. No, back then the Tenth Amendment

was still part of the Constitution.

The founders realized they wouldn't mention everything so they put in the Tenth Amendment at the end of the Bill of Rights. It was a default.

If a power is not delegated one way or the other, it belongs to the states.

The states feared the federal government would slowly usurp their powers. This put a stop to it. The powers of the federal government were to be limited and strictly enumerated. If it wasn't listed, it belonged to the states.

[ProfessorGAC]

33. Not Talking About Then

Talking about people today defending sedition, treason and open warfare against the federal government
Something that would have been even remotely considered an option for the states (secession) that impactful would have had a detailed method explained.
Besides, once a state declares their leaving, the 10th doesn't apply to them. They're dissolving their loyalty to the Constitution

[Yupster]

37. That was the Confederate view

Once they voted to leave the union and join the Confederacy they were no longer part of the USA. At that point they were a separate country. Therefore they couldn't be traitors against the US as they were foreign citizens. That was to be Davis's defense at his treason trial. We seceded legally. We were crushed by a foreign power which is currently occupying us.Please release me so that I can begin the task of rebuilding my hurting nation.

Today it is different. They right to secede was decided on the fields of Pennsylvania, Mississippi and Virginia and later affirmed in court.

Therefore the people today contemplating secession don't get the same deference since they know secession isn't legal.

Also, when the Constitution was ratified by the states no state thought its decision would be permanently bonding no matter how much the government changed. If that was the case it would never have been ratified in the first place.

[Xolodno]

41. One thing everyone forgets...

...The Confederacy started the war.

Lincoln stated they could not secede, but that's about enforceable as enforcing all royal lineage back in control in Europe. He didn't have a leg to stand on to enforce it and if he asked Congress to go to war, the tenth amendment no doubt would have caused many to decide against. If the South didn't fire on Ft. Sumter, the CSA could conceivably still exist today. In fact, the 13th Amendment was approved by the 2/3rds required in Congress that excluded the Southern States, as they obviously had no representation, de-facto if you will, recognition of the CSA. Once the CSA was defeated, reconstruction governments...essentially appointed governments, ratified the 13th Amendment, if memory serves me correctly, a requirement to being re-admitted to the Union....another implicit recognition of the CSA.

But at the same time, succession would accomplish what they wanted, to contain slavery only to where it existed and not expand. The South wanted to expand it to the new territory it took from the Mexican-American War. But since that was "territory" and not States, it could not join the South. So it had to be taken by force. The greed of the slave owners ironically did not only stop them from taking western territory, it ultimately cost them their slave holdings.

[Yupster]

58. An excellent post

This is maybe history's greatest example of short term gain and long term loss.

The expectation was that Fort. Sumter would be evacuated and negotiations went on for weeks.

The Confederates in S Carolina were demanding that President Davis fire on the fort, but he didn't want to fire on the fort still hoping the union would let the south go in peace. Eventually after a standoff that went on for weeks, a supply ship showed up in Charleston harbor and it became apparent the Yankees weren't leaving. At that point Davis gave the order to fire.

The results were tremendous for Davis. Morale throughout the south mushroomed. The Confederate nation was born and volunteers rushed to the army.

Even more important though, at the time of Ft Sumter, there were only seven Confederate states. There wasn't a gigantic slave state like New York was the dominant free state. Virginia, N Carolina, Georgia, and Kentucky all had roughly the same populations. At the time of Ft Sumter, only Georgia had seceded. Tennessee just barely voted not to convene a secession convention. Virginia was wavering with significant opposition to secession. N Carolina was not close to leaving.

With Ft Sumter came Lincoln's biggest blunder. He demanded each state provide a specific number of troops to invade the south. That made the wavering states choose sides and Tennessee, Virginia and N Carolina left the Union.

Could a south without those three states survive for long? No Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson, JEB Stuart.N Carolina lost more men in the war than any other state, including New York. When Davis heard he was President, he took a train from his home in Mississippi to the capital at Montgomery, Alabama. He had to cross US territory in Tennessee to get there.

Anyway, Davis wavered for weeks on his decision. Once he made it he was so happy with the results. Today, his decision is seen as a huge blunder.

[Xolodno]

62. Many wars can be considered the result of blunders....

With that being said, thanks for the info. I had a "helicopter view", but you really provided the details. Incentives, local politics, etc. played a significant role. Imagine if Davis had the political courage to not fire on Fort Sumter. Sure the CSA may have been a bit disjointed, but, given that time, sooner or later, the Union's control of Fort Sumter would have been an albatross. But like you said, short term gain for long term loss.

[grantcart]

54. During most of the time Texas was basically uninhabitated

In 1790 the population of Texas was less than 3000 and by 1830 with vigorous efforts to increase population it had only increased to 20,000.

By 1835 there were 30,000 Americans in Texas and only 3,000 Mexicans.

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/essays/1801-1900/anglo-american-colonization-in-texas/texas-1821-1836.php

[Yupster]

55. Very good point

Mexico had tried hard to get Mexicans to move to Texas to populate its northern state without any success at all.

At the time of the Alamo there were 10 Americans in Texas for every one Mexican, and many of the Mexicans were temprarily there with their soldier husbands.

[Demsrule86]

8. Why should people of color have to be reminded in an amusement park of the the long history

of Jim Crow...the flag is an abomination...put it in a museum, but stop flying it anywhere.

[Catmusicfan]

16. AND this is what I mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_flags_over_Texas


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws


Jim Crow started in 1896 during reconstruction.

[Demsrule86]

18. My mild post is what set you off? the confederate flag of treason flew over

People of color for many years and it sent a message and it flew over lynchings and various murders of POC...it should be in a museum...not on display.

[Yupster]

21. Generally people think Reconstruction ended

with the removal of Yankee troops from the south in 1877.

[thucythucy]

57. Reconstruction essentially ended in 1876

when the Republican Party promised to take federal troops out of the south and to stop trying to enforce civil rights for African Americans in exchange for southern Democratic electors switching sides to make a Republican president, even though he lost the popular vote.

[Jim Beard]

35. I am assuming that the French, Spanish and Mexican people feel the same way.

[Demsrule86]

46. A bit different that. The civil war monuments were erected for those who comitted treason...

in order to preserve slavery...next they enacted another form of slavery- Jim Crow and built monuments top remind people of color they were less than human in the eyes of the hate filled people who built those monuments and the governments that enacted discriminatory laws...such monuments belong in a museum as does the noxious confederate flag which is now a symbol for hate as well as treason and has no business flying over Six Flags or anywhere else.

[Jim Beard]

50. For the sake of arguement, did Six Flags over Texas display the Confederate flag for the

reasons you mentioned.

Did the corporation use the confederate flag to promote black slavery?
Did they do it to make black people think they are less than human?
Did they do it to preserve discriminatory laws?

For me, it has to do with intent and the corporation had none of these reasons for displaying this flag.

Now if they had displayed the Confederate and Texas flag, then that would show another intent.

[Demsrule86]

65. The motivation is immaterial. The flag of treason which cost this country more soldiers

than any war should not be flown anywhere in this country...now there is no doubt a first amendment right...not arguing about that. However what is right and what is legal are sometimes not the same thing. Good for Six Flags for getting rid of the flag.

[SweetieD]

14. The confederacy was never a true government. So Texas was never ruled by it.

It would be as if I called my backyard its own country and said I was seceding from the US. The reality is my backyard is still the US.

[Yupster]

22. What's a true government?

The Confederacy had an elected President, congressmen, senators, a court system with a Supreme Court, a written Constitution, a tax system, an army, navy and a draft to fill them. They coined their own money, delivered their own mail. While other countries never recognized them, they welcomed their diplomats to their capitals.

If you lived in Mississippi in 1862, you'd have no doubt that the nation you lived in was the Confederacy. It was its laws you needed to follow or its power would come down onto you.

[Demsrule86]

47. It was not a true government but a group of states in rebellion...treasonous

and unlawful.

[Yupster]

52. That was Lincoln's public view, but

at the same time he made agreements with it.

[Demsrule86]

64. You sometimes bargain with essentially terrorists...it was a treasonous war.

There should be no monuments or stars and bars flags flown...now it brands you as a racist. Put the leftover treasonous object...in a museum.

[PSPS]

15. LOL. Thank you for your "concern."

[TexasBushwhacker]

19. FWIW Six Flags Over Texas never used the Confederate Battle Flag

which is what the white power types use. But it is privately owned and they can fly any kind of flags they want. The original park in Texas had themed areas devoted to each country (Mexican, French etc). Having Six Flags Over Georgia and other states never made any sense to me.

[Demsrule86]

48. And they can lose business which is why Six Flags showed the good sense to eliminate this terrible

murderous flag which has flown over lynchings and the murder of people of color for many years.

[davsand]

24. The business can do whatever it chooses and people can spend money there or not.

It's private property, and it is a business that lives or dies by the opinions of the people who decide if they want to spend cash there or not. I see that as being a completely different thing than flying a confederate flag over a public facility or setting a statue honoring a confederate on publicly owned property.

Gonna get real blunt here, and I'll probably piss off a few folks with what I'm saying. Fair warning, stop reading now if you are an easily butthurt confederate apologist.
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I defy anybody to look me in the eye and tell me they are somehow proud of traitorous loser ancestor. We ALL remember the south tried to LEAVE the United States, and they DID in fact lose that war, bigly. At a huge expense in dead and dying people, the "glorious south" got their asses kicked and surrendered at Appomattox. The fact they were traitors, along with claiming to be proud of ancestors that presumed to profit off the blood and involuntary sweat of other people has nothing to do with "Pride" and everything to do with code words for hate. The ONLY takeaway from any of that entire war needs to be that the US has always been determined to at least attempt to move forward even if it has been at glacial speed.

SMDH.




Laura

[Demsrule86]

51. My Mother was born near Charlottesville. I lived their as a child. We were a border state

and I had ancestors who fought for the South and for the North...it truly was brother against brother. I am not proud of those who attempted to preserve slavery and fought for the Confederacy as Lee did...I am proud of those who fought to preserve the union and end slavery. They rode or walked under the American flag and fought to end an abominable institution. My ancestors owned slaves and that makes me ashamed not proud.

[oneshooter]

56. Then YOU should be required

to pay restitution to all of the ancestors of the slaves YOUR family held in bondage.

[Demsrule86]

63. My family lost everything during the civil war and were poor farmers after that.

I would say that I have no riches from that time or family treasures- nothing...and my Great Great fought for the north and the
slaves held by my family were freed by the time the civil war came...they had been freed during the late 1840's in a will...but no matter what I had nothing to do with this...it is the past. So I don't agree with you.

[oneshooter]

66. It does not matter

They were held by your family against their will.

Repatriations MUST be paid to the decedents, ALL of the decedents.

And it is your responsibility to find these people and apologize to them, and pay them, for what YOUR family has done to them.

[Iggo]

25. Nobody but nobody goes to six flags for a history lesson. (n/t)

[LeftInTX]

27. We have a Six Flags in San Antonio

I never paid attention to the flags. It's an amusement park.

[DonaldsRump]

28. Why would you want to honor a traitor?

That's all Johnny Reb and the Confederacy were: a bunch of traitors.

I guess being a traitor is no big deal to the Buffoon, since that's how he "won" the Presidency.

What a fool you are, Buffoon: equating Washington and Jefferson to Davis, Lee and SW Jackson is absurd because the former fought to make America and the latter three fought/tried to destroy America. I guess for the Buffoon, he is too caught in being a traitor himself to understand this very basic distinction.

Never forget: "states' rights" is a code word for racism. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to be flying Confederate flags, having these statutes of traitors like Lee, Davis etc, or naming schools and bases for these traitors. By doing so, flocal/state/federal governments are either endorsing being a traitor, racism, or both.

Six Flags is a private concern (i.e., they can do what they want to a large degree), but they know which way the wind is blowing on this one.

[Jim Beard]

39. Lets try a different approach.

First pass a Federal law making it illegal to erect monuments and statues on Publicly own land. Accept what is there. Then build huge statues of Sherman, Grant and Lincoln.

Instead of trying to fight and remove the confederacy, just make the winners statues much larger. I would not mind chipping in.

[Adrahil]

29. Wait... what!?

How is removing a racist flag from
An amusement park "disappearing history"?

They ban history books or somethin'?

[AgadorSparticus]

61. +1

[Codeine]

36. It's a motherfucking roller coaster park.

It has precisely fuck-all to do with history. Non-issue.

[tammywammy]

38. I live in Arlington. I worked at the park in high school.

There is outrage by some around here. I don't give a flying fuck. It's an amusement park not a freaking history lesson. If people need an amusement park to remember history then they have much bigger problems.

[Texasgal]

44. Completely agree..

I cannot imagine why people are getting all pumped up over this. It's an overpriced amusement park! There are several others to choose from if you cannot bring yourself to go there.

[OriginalGeek]

49. I worked there when I was a teenager

I honestly don't even remember being aware which 6 flags there were. I was a park photographer and just wanted a paycheck and to meet girls. And i saw Joan Jett and the Blackhearts play there which was pretty cool.

[Jim Beard]

40. I think we can all agree that it is the INTENT of the use of the flag. Wasn't there a popular TV sho

Last edited Sun Aug 20, 2017, 11:45 AM - Edit history (1)

show with the "General Lee" car.

I think I have said enough on this subject.

[Raine1967]

42. No. I'll tell you why and I'm gonna make this simple:

Six Flags is a damn amusement park.

The civil war is and was not amusing.

END OF STORY.

[Xolodno]

43. Its nothing more than marketing ploy on history.

Right now, ironically due to the very people who are trying to push the CSA 2.0, its no longer a good marketing idea.

As for me, I like to see the original six flags back up eventually when its not so toxic, its not a promotion of an ideology, but just a recognition of the past, similar to civil war reenactments. However, statues of Lee, Jackson, Davis, etc., the Confederate flag on State flags is absolute in promotion of an ideology that's morally bankrupt, barbaric, inhuman...well, I think you get the idea.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

53. FFS, removing monuments and emblems to those who waged a bloody war against

America so they could keep owning other human beings is not disappearing history. As others have said here, we have books, museums, schools, the internet.

By the way, interesting that this is a Reich Wing talking point. They're the ones forcing text book companies to alter factual information to present BS in the books the specific purpose of which is to teach about history.

Where's the concern over that?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

59. I don't think displaying the Marschall flag in a historical context is horribly offensive

I don't think many "white nationalists" would even recognize it as a confederate flag, I don't think I have ever seen it on the back of a pickup truck.

[Gothmog]

60. No the actions of Six Flags were very very appropriate

[LanternWaste]

67. Which is not the obligation or the mission statement of an amusement park...

"We need to listen to history..."

Which is not the obligation or the mission statement of an amusement park... unless we believe there should be national flags on display and incorporated into its flag displays for its Gotham City and Loony Tunes themed sections.