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Hate groups: I will not defend your right to free speech (Original Post) cynatnite Aug 2017 OP
We will overwhelm their weak, cowardly voices with voices so loud MineralMan Aug 2017 #1
Sorry, can't agree... Wounded Bear Aug 2017 #2
I used to feel the same... cynatnite Aug 2017 #3
Then you simply don't support free speech. BostonianMagi Aug 2017 #29
Free clue: popular speech needs no protection- it's popular. X_Digger Aug 2017 #41
Agree with you and Bostonian. The vast majority of the Hortensis Aug 2017 #47
finally a voice of reason nt burnbaby Aug 2017 #35
Agreed. bluepen Aug 2017 #63
Defining hate groups is why we must not allow the government to crack down on... Weekend Warrior Aug 2017 #4
I will defend their right to free speech edhopper Aug 2017 #5
Also free speech does not mean without consequence. Egnever Aug 2017 #12
"Don't give them their freedom because they're not going to give you yours." johnp3907 Aug 2017 #6
I'm sympathetic to the impulse, but I can't go along with you. aikoaiko Aug 2017 #7
I support the first amendment taught_me_patience Aug 2017 #8
Not listening hasn't gotten us far... cynatnite Aug 2017 #9
Nor do you have to stand idly by and let them spew Egnever Aug 2017 #16
Free Speech can still be limited, when public policy demands it Mr. Ected Aug 2017 #10
The falsely screaming "fire" part of law is gone. NutmegYankee Aug 2017 #11
The obscenity test is very strict and easy to overcome. NutmegYankee Aug 2017 #13
Atlantic: It's Time To Stop Using "Fire in a crowded theater" Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #39
You're getting worked up by an infinitesimally small population of crazy people. Calista241 Aug 2017 #14
We didn't have a fucking Nazi in the WH either. n/t cynatnite Aug 2017 #15
I'm sorry but saying sarisataka Aug 2017 #17
Is Germany unable to conduct fair trials because of their limits on free speech? n/t cynatnite Aug 2017 #18
Equivalent, not dependent... sarisataka Aug 2017 #19
They do not in regards to hate speech. n/t cynatnite Aug 2017 #23
I will, until my last breath. That is all. tritsofme Aug 2017 #20
Good on you. OBenario4 Aug 2017 #21
Defending hate speech is like defending someone's right to scream "fire" in a crowded theater MrScorpio Aug 2017 #22
Understand your argument, but want to point out that shouting fire isn't illegal. NutmegYankee Aug 2017 #24
People were using "fire in a crowded theater" to suggest censoring "blasphemy" here not long ago Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #45
Atlantic: It's Time To Stop Using "Fire in a crowded theater" Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #46
Meet free speech with free speech struggle4progress Aug 2017 #25
Yup Egnever Aug 2017 #27
free speech must be defended AlexSFCA Aug 2017 #26
I'll defend everyone's right to free speech. Iggo Aug 2017 #28
I will defend their right to free speech. It is the fundamental value of the America we aspire to. Squinch Aug 2017 #30
Excellent point. Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #43
i thinks Abrams vs United States in 1919 gave the answer to.... samnsara Aug 2017 #31
Atlantic: It's Time To Stop Using "Fire in a crowded theater" Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #42
Brandenburg superceded that. You CAN. n/t X_Digger Aug 2017 #44
This is frightening and dangerous oberliner Aug 2017 #32
Probably not since we've got a Nazi-in-Chief... cynatnite Aug 2017 #33
Someone could argue that calling Trump a Nazi is hate speech oberliner Aug 2017 #34
This isn't about disagreeing over an issue like abortion, healthcare, etc... cynatnite Aug 2017 #36
Calling the President a Nazi can be defined as anti-American hate speech oberliner Aug 2017 #37
SCOTUS has consistently sided with free speech... cynatnite Aug 2017 #49
The 1st Amendment isn't the problem, here. Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #38
Then you have a preference, not a principle. X_Digger Aug 2017 #40
It's easy to be a free speech absolutist if you're not being threatened cagefreesoylentgreen Aug 2017 #48
I come from a family of Jews who had people in Europe during the Holocaust. Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #51
I don't believe there are any easy solutions cagefreesoylentgreen Aug 2017 #53
For one, respond to speech with more speech, which is what is happening already. Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #54
Incitement is not protected free speech. L. Coyote Aug 2017 #50
There are those who would consider some DU posts to be incitement. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #58
And I've alerted on incitement here. L. Coyote Aug 2017 #59
That's a different issue. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #60
Do not agree. Free speech is protected by the 1st Amendment. RelativelyJones Aug 2017 #52
If we don't defend hate speech... defacto7 Aug 2017 #55
That's the hardest part of defending the 1st Amendment nini Aug 2017 #56
Popular speech needs no such protection- it's popular. n/t X_Digger Aug 2017 #62
The answer to speech you disagree with is more speech, not less Rob H. Aug 2017 #57
"Freedom of speech" and the paradox of tolerance Spider Jerusalem Aug 2017 #61
Basically, the entire Republican Party should be banned by this definition Fluke a Snooker Aug 2017 #64

Wounded Bear

(58,769 posts)
2. Sorry, can't agree...
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:22 AM
Aug 2017

If all they're doing is speaking, they have that right.

People also have the right to not listen and peacefully counter-protest.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
3. I used to feel the same...
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:25 AM
Aug 2017

But seeing their level of hate and promotion of violence through free speech, in good conscience I can't defend that right any longer.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
41. Free clue: popular speech needs no protection- it's popular.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 04:34 PM
Aug 2017

If free speech means anything, it has to protect unpopular speech.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
47. Agree with you and Bostonian. The vast majority of the
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 04:45 PM
Aug 2017

people who came out to protest these nationalist/racists/fascists, etcetera, did so protested peacefully, their presence their main statement.

The press provided a very inaccurate, to the point of dishonest, picture of what really happened since so many of them pushed past the big crowds to film the ones who'd gotten up front scream in the faces of the marchers and try to make physical trouble.


edhopper

(33,653 posts)
5. I will defend their right to free speech
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:26 AM
Aug 2017

but free speech is a matter of interpretation and doesn't include armed rallies.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
12. Also free speech does not mean without consequence.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 01:02 PM
Aug 2017

It means the government can not arrest or persecute you for it but it does not mean the citizenry can not still run you out of town.

johnp3907

(3,734 posts)
6. "Don't give them their freedom because they're not going to give you yours."
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:27 AM
Aug 2017

"Fuck Nazi Sympathy"

Don't respect something that has no respect
don't sympathize with something that has no sympathy
don't understand something that has no understanding
Don't give them their freedom, because they're not going to give you yours
Fuck nazi sympathy
Don't give them their freedom, because they're not going to give you yours

aikoaiko

(34,186 posts)
7. I'm sympathetic to the impulse, but I can't go along with you.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:32 AM
Aug 2017


Free speech is a cornerstone of freedom.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
9. Not listening hasn't gotten us far...
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:36 AM
Aug 2017

I used to feel the same about these groups, but I can't support their right any longer.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
16. Nor do you have to stand idly by and let them spew
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 01:06 PM
Aug 2017

The first amendment only protects speech from government repercussions it does not protect anything further than that. Free speech does not equal without consequence. Only without consequence from the government.

I am all for that. Bring up any crazy fucking idea you want but that does not mean You can not be challenged.

Mr. Ected

(9,675 posts)
10. Free Speech can still be limited, when public policy demands it
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:39 AM
Aug 2017

You can't scream "Fire!" in a crowded theater. You can't publish obscenities or kiddie porn.

The right is not absolute.

NutmegYankee

(16,204 posts)
11. The falsely screaming "fire" part of law is gone.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 12:54 PM
Aug 2017

You can do it without arrest now, though you will likely get kicked out of the privately owned theater for being a jerk.

NutmegYankee

(16,204 posts)
13. The obscenity test is very strict and easy to overcome.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 01:03 PM
Aug 2017

Obscenity is not protected by the First Amendment and thus can be regulated by the state. However, the state must conform to the three-part test of Miller v. California:

1. Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;
2. Whether the work depicts or describes, in an offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions, specifically defined by applicable state law; and
3. Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

So for instance, the first test would immediately invalidate any law that banned swear words, as they clearly do not sexually arouse. The third part allows Pornographic videos and movies as they are clearly works of artistic value.




As for child pornography, the argument isn't based on speech, but rather the fact that it is created by victimizing a child. In this instance, there is no legal way to create it. (a law to ban poser or other computer generated models was overturned because it didn't cause harm to a child)

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
39. Atlantic: It's Time To Stop Using "Fire in a crowded theater"
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 04:31 PM
Aug 2017
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/

But those who quote Holmes might want to actually read the case where the phrase originated before using it as their main defense. If they did, they'd realize it was never binding law, and the underlying case, U.S. v. Schenck, is not only one of the most odious free speech decisions in the Court's history, but was overturned over 40 years ago.

First, it's important to note U.S. v. Schenck had nothing to do with fires or theaters or false statements. Instead, the Court was deciding whether Charles Schenck, the Secretary of the Socialist Party of America, could be convicted under the Espionage Act for writing and distributing a pamphlet that expressed his opposition to the draft during World War I. As the ACLU's Gabe Rottman explains, "It did not call for violence. It did not even call for civil disobedience."

***

In 1969, the Supreme Court's decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio effectively overturned Schenck and any authority the case still carried.
There, the Court held that inflammatory speech--and even speech advocating violence by members of the Ku Klux Klan--is protected under the First Amendment, unless the speech "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action" (emphasis mine).

Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
14. You're getting worked up by an infinitesimally small population of crazy people.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 01:04 PM
Aug 2017

The only reason it's a thing now is because the media is pushing it so they can drive ratings.

They've had threse stupid rallies for the past 20 years, and nobody that mattered gave a shit about it.

sarisataka

(18,883 posts)
17. I'm sorry but saying
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 01:12 PM
Aug 2017

to any group "I will not defend your right to free speech" is equivalent to saying "I will not defend your right to a fair trail".

It is binary, the right either applies to all or is does not exist.

 

OBenario4

(252 posts)
21. Good on you.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 01:36 PM
Aug 2017

Freedom of speech is not an absolute right. People using freedom of speech to try to take away liberties and rights of other groups shouldn't be allowed.

In fact, I don't understand why is it not forbidden to go around showing Nazi flags in the US. In almost every country these people would be arrested for that.

MrScorpio

(73,631 posts)
22. Defending hate speech is like defending someone's right to scream "fire" in a crowded theater
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 01:49 PM
Aug 2017

Last edited Sat Aug 19, 2017, 03:17 PM - Edit history (1)

...When there's no fire at all.

When defending the free speech of white supremacists, one is defending their expressed intention to dehumanize other people. The purpose of dehumanization is to marginalize, oppress and even murder others simply because they're part of the non-white and/or non-Christian minority.

White supremacists are intent on convincing the white majority that it's in their best interests to do that very thing. They're appealing to fear and hatred of the other. It really doesn't take all that much to create biases and for mobs especially to act on those biases. That's what these people stand for, it would be naive to think otherwise.

So-called free speech has limits. That's an established legal precedent, encoded in our courts of law. Inciting to riot is not protected speech, and thus inciting to oppress and murder black people and Jews should not be protected either.

If we're supposed to be a decent, egalitarian society, we should set a standard in which the expressed intention to dehumanize, oppress and murder people because of their identity is completely unacceptable.

Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before that very thing happens here again and again.

NutmegYankee

(16,204 posts)
24. Understand your argument, but want to point out that shouting fire isn't illegal.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 02:14 PM
Aug 2017

The falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater came out of the 1919 Schenck v. United States SCOTUS decision that set a standard of "clear and present danger". This was replaced in 1969 in Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot).

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
45. People were using "fire in a crowded theater" to suggest censoring "blasphemy" here not long ago
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 04:40 PM
Aug 2017

It's been used to suggest that the government should censor everything from the sports illustrated swimsuit issue to sex scenes on Game of Thrones.

It's depressing how much open contempt people have for the 1st Amendment. It PROTECTS us from fascism, yet rather than fighting the fascism itself, people knee-jerk against free speech.

struggle4progress

(118,379 posts)
25. Meet free speech with free speech
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 02:21 PM
Aug 2017

Over the years, many rightwing nut jobs have considered my speech abhorrent and have wanted me silenced

In part, I defend free speech to defend myself when my own views are unpopular

Like others who believe in democratic process, I am convinced that the public can sort matters out sensibly, given enough time and enough information

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
27. Yup
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 02:26 PM
Aug 2017

I remember the free speech zones during Shrubs administration very well.

Someone does not like what you have to say. The second we start letting people chose what others get to say we are the next on the list that are not allowed to speak.

Boston showed what free speech is all about today.

AlexSFCA

(6,139 posts)
26. free speech must be defended
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 02:24 PM
Aug 2017

this is a tool used by autoritarian regimes, ban fascist speech fist and create a precedent and then 'opposition' rallies can also be banned.

Iggo

(47,587 posts)
28. I'll defend everyone's right to free speech.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 02:33 PM
Aug 2017

Last edited Sat Aug 19, 2017, 03:06 PM - Edit history (1)

I might not defend their face from punching. You piss people off, you don't get to act all surprised and hurt that people got pissed off.

But I will defend your right to say whatever it is you said that made people want to punch you in the face.

Squinch

(51,079 posts)
30. I will defend their right to free speech. It is the fundamental value of the America we aspire to.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 02:56 PM
Aug 2017

I am also gratified to see what the free speech of the Nazis is doing to America. We are more united than we have been in a long time against them.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
43. Excellent point.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 04:38 PM
Aug 2017

1st Amendment threads can be depressing, around here.

The 1st Amendment stands as a bulwark against totalitarianism, and with a would-be tinpot dictator in the oval office, one would think now more than ever we would appreciate it.

samnsara

(17,658 posts)
31. i thinks Abrams vs United States in 1919 gave the answer to....
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 03:17 PM
Aug 2017

...why you cant cry FIRE in a crowded theater..

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
42. Atlantic: It's Time To Stop Using "Fire in a crowded theater"
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 04:35 PM
Aug 2017
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/

But those who quote Holmes might want to actually read the case where the phrase originated before using it as their main defense. If they did, they'd realize it was never binding law, and the underlying case, U.S. v. Schenck, is not only one of the most odious free speech decisions in the Court's history, but was overturned over 40 years ago.

First, it's important to note U.S. v. Schenck had nothing to do with fires or theaters or false statements. Instead, the Court was deciding whether Charles Schenck, the Secretary of the Socialist Party of America, could be convicted under the Espionage Act for writing and distributing a pamphlet that expressed his opposition to the draft during World War I. As the ACLU's Gabe Rottman explains, "It did not call for violence. It did not even call for civil disobedience."

***

In 1969, the Supreme Court's decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio effectively overturned Schenck and any authority the case still carried. There, the Court held that inflammatory speech--and even speech advocating violence by members of the Ku Klux Klan--is protected under the First Amendment, unless the speech "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action" (emphasis mine).

Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
33. Probably not since we've got a Nazi-in-Chief...
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 03:45 PM
Aug 2017

Germany seems to do fine with limitations on their speech.

My tolerance for hate speech has gone down to zero. I know it's a minority opinion and I don't mind. But that's how I feel after watching it come from the WH, these racist & fascist groups.

Then too many repubs who refuse to call out and condemn the greatest purveyor of hate speech. They are enablers and complicit with each passing day.

Hate speech shouldn't be free, IMO.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
34. Someone could argue that calling Trump a Nazi is hate speech
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 03:49 PM
Aug 2017

I don't think this is a good road to go down. I think it is important to respect the free speech rights of all Americans, especially the ones with whom we disagree. In particular, because of the current administration.

If this administration wanted to start abridging people's right to free speech, they would probably start by declaring things like calling Trump a Nazi hate speech.

For reasons like that, it is important, in my view, to defend the First Amendment.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
36. This isn't about disagreeing over an issue like abortion, healthcare, etc...
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 03:57 PM
Aug 2017

This is absolute anti-American hate speech.

We can't whitewash this as if it's just another political disagreement and it's disgraceful when someone does it.

The administration couldn't be the ones limiting hate speech. That would come from the legislature since it and SCOTUS are the ones to make those determinations.

Also, SCOTUS historically does protect hate speech. It sucks, I hate it, but it does.

I am completely aware the folly of my own opinion about this.

I refuse to defend their right to hate speech.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
37. Calling the President a Nazi can be defined as anti-American hate speech
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 04:04 PM
Aug 2017

The legislature and the courts are both dominated by conservative Republicans.

Again, with all due respect, I think this is not a good road to go down.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
49. SCOTUS has consistently sided with free speech...
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 05:21 PM
Aug 2017

None of them want to put any limits on that.

I do understand the legalities as I've expressed. This is just how I feel given the despicable hate we've endured.

I've already gotten in the car and I'm speeding down the highway.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
38. The 1st Amendment isn't the problem, here.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 04:27 PM
Aug 2017

That said, the ACLU is absolutely right to draw the line with these mobs that are clearly anticipating violence. If you're bringing weapons, shields, etc you've gone beyond "speech".

48. It's easy to be a free speech absolutist if you're not being threatened
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 05:00 PM
Aug 2017

I used to naively believe that people were entitled to say whatever they want. But my experiences as a non-white, non-cis, non-heterosexual, has made me realize otherwise.

I mean, it's like, "I don't believe in stabbing people but you have to listen to this guy say he believes stabbing you is good."

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
51. I come from a family of Jews who had people in Europe during the Holocaust.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 05:24 PM
Aug 2017

Bullshit about "not being threatened". When these people talk about genocide, ovens, gassing, they're talking about me and my family.

I defend the first amendment because it PROTECTS us against fascism, not because I'm all "bravery of being out of range"

Whats depressing is the reflexive desire of people to go after the 1st Amendment, as if that is somehow the problem here.

53. I don't believe there are any easy solutions
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 06:00 PM
Aug 2017

Certainly, getting rid of the First Amendment would cause more problems than it would solve imo. It'd be like using a nuke to kill a roach.

I don't have a solution to suggest. What are your ideas?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
54. For one, respond to speech with more speech, which is what is happening already.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 06:07 PM
Aug 2017

Two, the ACLU has drawn an important distinction- and their record in protecting the 1A is pretty consistent; namely, they have stated that they are not going to be offering defense to groups that rally with clubs, shields, weapons- clearly intending violent confrontation- nor are they interested in spending donor money on defense of the "right" of people to march heavily armed; that's a 2nd Amendment more than a 1st question.

Condemnation and exposure are maybe not as immediately satisfying, but more effective in the long run than trying to suppress the expression.

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
50. Incitement is not protected free speech.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 05:24 PM
Aug 2017

I will defend anyone's right to free speech because that is the only way to ensure my own, which I need to counter hate speech.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
58. There are those who would consider some DU posts to be incitement.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:19 PM
Aug 2017

"Those nasty things you wrote about police misconduct might incite someone to attack a law enforcement officer. Therefore, those posts are not protected by the First Amendment."

That's what can happen with a broad view of "incitement" -- you mean well by it, but your definition isn't universally shared.

The distinction drawn in American law is not based on the content itself. Pro-Nazi speech or white supremacist speech isn't always incitement. The distinction is whether there's an imminent danger. See the summary that Warren DeMontague posted in #39 -- speech can be banned if it "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action". As it happens, that language is from a Supreme Court decision, Brandenburg v. Ohio, that overturned the conviction of a Klan leader. From the Wikipedia article about the case:

Clarence Brandenburg, a Ku Klux Klan (KKK) leader in rural Ohio, contacted a reporter at a Cincinnati television station and invited him to cover a KKK rally that would take place in Hamilton County in the summer of 1964.[7] Portions of the rally were filmed, showing several men in robes and hoods, some carrying firearms, first burning a cross and then making speeches. One of the speeches made reference to the possibility of "revengeance" against "niggers", "Jews", and those who supported them. One of the speeches also claimed that "our President, our Congress, our Supreme Court, continues to suppress the white, Caucasian race", and announced plans for a march on Washington to take place on the Fourth of July. Brandenburg was charged with advocating violence under Ohio's criminal syndicalism statute for his participation in the rally and for the speech he made. In relevant part, the statute – enacted in 1919 during the First Red Scare – proscribed "advocat{ing}...the duty, necessity, or propriety of crime, sabotage, violence, or unlawful methods of terrorism as a means of accomplishing industrial or political reform" and "voluntarily assembl{ing} with any society, group or assemblage of persons formed to teach or advocate the doctrines of criminal syndicalism".


All that seems at least as vile as anything that came out of Charlottesville. The point of Brandenburg is that, although you could always draw some sort of causal link between speech and illegal conduct, the Supreme Court refused to allow a First Amendment loophole that would greatly weaken the protection of freedom of speech. In brief, suppression on the basis of incitement was no longer permitted just because speech had a "bad tendency". Instead, there had to be the danger of "imminent lawless action".

A bunch of neo-Nazis waving tiki torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us" does not represent an imminent threat that one of them will drive a car into a crowd of counter-demonstrators. That's just hindsight.
 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
60. That's a different issue.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:29 PM
Aug 2017

DU rules bar things like urging a vote for Jill Stein over Hillary Clinton. That's because DU is a private entity that isn't bound by the First Amendment.

I hope everyone can agree that advocating a vote for Stein is protected First Amendment activity. That means that the government can't prohibit or punish the speech, even though the DU admins can. Similarly, the admins can apply whatever "incitement" standard they choose, without regard to the First Amendment.

RelativelyJones

(898 posts)
52. Do not agree. Free speech is protected by the 1st Amendment.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 05:38 PM
Aug 2017

We must counter ugly ideology with our own arguments.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
55. If we don't defend hate speech...
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 07:39 PM
Aug 2017

maybe we shouldn't defend speech that threatens anyone's human rights... or maybe speech that threatens the constitution.. or maybe speech that criticises a public official who has a different take on states rights.. or maybe.. religions, lack of religion... it's a can of worms to open up the first amendment to include or exclude specifics.

nini

(16,672 posts)
56. That's the hardest part of defending the 1st Amendment
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 07:54 PM
Aug 2017

Is to have to defend it for vile people like them.

Be careful what you wish for in shutting them down and I completely understand why you feel that way. That does not mean they can threaten etc. without repercussions and should be dealt with under the law if they do.

I do agree they are walking a very fine line here.

Rob H.

(5,354 posts)
57. The answer to speech you disagree with is more speech, not less
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 08:48 PM
Aug 2017

If you don't believe in free speech for people who disagree with you, you don't believe in free speech at all.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
61. "Freedom of speech" and the paradox of tolerance
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:37 PM
Aug 2017
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.”

― Karl R. Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies
 

Fluke a Snooker

(404 posts)
64. Basically, the entire Republican Party should be banned by this definition
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 10:48 AM
Aug 2017

Its entire platform would have all non-whites be snuffed of its rights with violence, so the GOP's existence goes beyond that of crying fire in a theater.

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