General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMineralMan
(146,346 posts)they cannot be heard at all.
Wounded Bear
(58,769 posts)If all they're doing is speaking, they have that right.
People also have the right to not listen and peacefully counter-protest.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)But seeing their level of hate and promotion of violence through free speech, in good conscience I can't defend that right any longer.
BostonianMagi
(18 posts)Period. No need to add qualifiers to it.
Magi
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)If free speech means anything, it has to protect unpopular speech.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)people who came out to protest these nationalist/racists/fascists, etcetera, did so protested peacefully, their presence their main statement.
The press provided a very inaccurate, to the point of dishonest, picture of what really happened since so many of them pushed past the big crowds to film the ones who'd gotten up front scream in the faces of the marchers and try to make physical trouble.
burnbaby
(685 posts)bluepen
(620 posts)Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)their speech alone.
edhopper
(33,653 posts)but free speech is a matter of interpretation and doesn't include armed rallies.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)It means the government can not arrest or persecute you for it but it does not mean the citizenry can not still run you out of town.
johnp3907
(3,734 posts)"Fuck Nazi Sympathy"
Don't respect something that has no respect
don't sympathize with something that has no sympathy
don't understand something that has no understanding
Don't give them their freedom, because they're not going to give you yours
Fuck nazi sympathy
Don't give them their freedom, because they're not going to give you yours
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)Free speech is a cornerstone of freedom.
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)Which means they have a right to free speech. I don't have to listen.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)I used to feel the same about these groups, but I can't support their right any longer.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)The first amendment only protects speech from government repercussions it does not protect anything further than that. Free speech does not equal without consequence. Only without consequence from the government.
I am all for that. Bring up any crazy fucking idea you want but that does not mean You can not be challenged.
Mr. Ected
(9,675 posts)You can't scream "Fire!" in a crowded theater. You can't publish obscenities or kiddie porn.
The right is not absolute.
NutmegYankee
(16,204 posts)You can do it without arrest now, though you will likely get kicked out of the privately owned theater for being a jerk.
NutmegYankee
(16,204 posts)Obscenity is not protected by the First Amendment and thus can be regulated by the state. However, the state must conform to the three-part test of Miller v. California:
1. Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;
2. Whether the work depicts or describes, in an offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions, specifically defined by applicable state law; and
3. Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.
So for instance, the first test would immediately invalidate any law that banned swear words, as they clearly do not sexually arouse. The third part allows Pornographic videos and movies as they are clearly works of artistic value.
As for child pornography, the argument isn't based on speech, but rather the fact that it is created by victimizing a child. In this instance, there is no legal way to create it. (a law to ban poser or other computer generated models was overturned because it didn't cause harm to a child)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)First, it's important to note U.S. v. Schenck had nothing to do with fires or theaters or false statements. Instead, the Court was deciding whether Charles Schenck, the Secretary of the Socialist Party of America, could be convicted under the Espionage Act for writing and distributing a pamphlet that expressed his opposition to the draft during World War I. As the ACLU's Gabe Rottman explains, "It did not call for violence. It did not even call for civil disobedience."
***
In 1969, the Supreme Court's decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio effectively overturned Schenck and any authority the case still carried. There, the Court held that inflammatory speech--and even speech advocating violence by members of the Ku Klux Klan--is protected under the First Amendment, unless the speech "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action" (emphasis mine).
Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."
Calista241
(5,586 posts)The only reason it's a thing now is because the media is pushing it so they can drive ratings.
They've had threse stupid rallies for the past 20 years, and nobody that mattered gave a shit about it.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)sarisataka
(18,883 posts)to any group "I will not defend your right to free speech" is equivalent to saying "I will not defend your right to a fair trail".
It is binary, the right either applies to all or is does not exist.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)sarisataka
(18,883 posts)Germany does not have free speech.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)tritsofme
(17,423 posts)The First Amendment is not optional.
OBenario4
(252 posts)Freedom of speech is not an absolute right. People using freedom of speech to try to take away liberties and rights of other groups shouldn't be allowed.
In fact, I don't understand why is it not forbidden to go around showing Nazi flags in the US. In almost every country these people would be arrested for that.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 19, 2017, 03:17 PM - Edit history (1)
...When there's no fire at all.
When defending the free speech of white supremacists, one is defending their expressed intention to dehumanize other people. The purpose of dehumanization is to marginalize, oppress and even murder others simply because they're part of the non-white and/or non-Christian minority.
White supremacists are intent on convincing the white majority that it's in their best interests to do that very thing. They're appealing to fear and hatred of the other. It really doesn't take all that much to create biases and for mobs especially to act on those biases. That's what these people stand for, it would be naive to think otherwise.
So-called free speech has limits. That's an established legal precedent, encoded in our courts of law. Inciting to riot is not protected speech, and thus inciting to oppress and murder black people and Jews should not be protected either.
If we're supposed to be a decent, egalitarian society, we should set a standard in which the expressed intention to dehumanize, oppress and murder people because of their identity is completely unacceptable.
Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before that very thing happens here again and again.
NutmegYankee
(16,204 posts)The falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater came out of the 1919 Schenck v. United States SCOTUS decision that set a standard of "clear and present danger". This was replaced in 1969 in Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot).
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)It's been used to suggest that the government should censor everything from the sports illustrated swimsuit issue to sex scenes on Game of Thrones.
It's depressing how much open contempt people have for the 1st Amendment. It PROTECTS us from fascism, yet rather than fighting the fascism itself, people knee-jerk against free speech.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)Over the years, many rightwing nut jobs have considered my speech abhorrent and have wanted me silenced
In part, I defend free speech to defend myself when my own views are unpopular
Like others who believe in democratic process, I am convinced that the public can sort matters out sensibly, given enough time and enough information
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I remember the free speech zones during Shrubs administration very well.
Someone does not like what you have to say. The second we start letting people chose what others get to say we are the next on the list that are not allowed to speak.
Boston showed what free speech is all about today.
AlexSFCA
(6,139 posts)this is a tool used by autoritarian regimes, ban fascist speech fist and create a precedent and then 'opposition' rallies can also be banned.
Iggo
(47,587 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 19, 2017, 03:06 PM - Edit history (1)
I might not defend their face from punching. You piss people off, you don't get to act all surprised and hurt that people got pissed off.
But I will defend your right to say whatever it is you said that made people want to punch you in the face.
Squinch
(51,079 posts)I am also gratified to see what the free speech of the Nazis is doing to America. We are more united than we have been in a long time against them.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)1st Amendment threads can be depressing, around here.
The 1st Amendment stands as a bulwark against totalitarianism, and with a would-be tinpot dictator in the oval office, one would think now more than ever we would appreciate it.
samnsara
(17,658 posts)...why you cant cry FIRE in a crowded theater..
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)First, it's important to note U.S. v. Schenck had nothing to do with fires or theaters or false statements. Instead, the Court was deciding whether Charles Schenck, the Secretary of the Socialist Party of America, could be convicted under the Espionage Act for writing and distributing a pamphlet that expressed his opposition to the draft during World War I. As the ACLU's Gabe Rottman explains, "It did not call for violence. It did not even call for civil disobedience."
***
In 1969, the Supreme Court's decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio effectively overturned Schenck and any authority the case still carried. There, the Court held that inflammatory speech--and even speech advocating violence by members of the Ku Klux Klan--is protected under the First Amendment, unless the speech "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action" (emphasis mine).
Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Are we not in the US?
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Germany seems to do fine with limitations on their speech.
My tolerance for hate speech has gone down to zero. I know it's a minority opinion and I don't mind. But that's how I feel after watching it come from the WH, these racist & fascist groups.
Then too many repubs who refuse to call out and condemn the greatest purveyor of hate speech. They are enablers and complicit with each passing day.
Hate speech shouldn't be free, IMO.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't think this is a good road to go down. I think it is important to respect the free speech rights of all Americans, especially the ones with whom we disagree. In particular, because of the current administration.
If this administration wanted to start abridging people's right to free speech, they would probably start by declaring things like calling Trump a Nazi hate speech.
For reasons like that, it is important, in my view, to defend the First Amendment.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)This is absolute anti-American hate speech.
We can't whitewash this as if it's just another political disagreement and it's disgraceful when someone does it.
The administration couldn't be the ones limiting hate speech. That would come from the legislature since it and SCOTUS are the ones to make those determinations.
Also, SCOTUS historically does protect hate speech. It sucks, I hate it, but it does.
I am completely aware the folly of my own opinion about this.
I refuse to defend their right to hate speech.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The legislature and the courts are both dominated by conservative Republicans.
Again, with all due respect, I think this is not a good road to go down.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)None of them want to put any limits on that.
I do understand the legalities as I've expressed. This is just how I feel given the despicable hate we've endured.
I've already gotten in the car and I'm speeding down the highway.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)That said, the ACLU is absolutely right to draw the line with these mobs that are clearly anticipating violence. If you're bringing weapons, shields, etc you've gone beyond "speech".
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)You 'prefer' free speech.
cagefreesoylentgreen
(838 posts)I used to naively believe that people were entitled to say whatever they want. But my experiences as a non-white, non-cis, non-heterosexual, has made me realize otherwise.
I mean, it's like, "I don't believe in stabbing people but you have to listen to this guy say he believes stabbing you is good."
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Bullshit about "not being threatened". When these people talk about genocide, ovens, gassing, they're talking about me and my family.
I defend the first amendment because it PROTECTS us against fascism, not because I'm all "bravery of being out of range"
Whats depressing is the reflexive desire of people to go after the 1st Amendment, as if that is somehow the problem here.
cagefreesoylentgreen
(838 posts)Certainly, getting rid of the First Amendment would cause more problems than it would solve imo. It'd be like using a nuke to kill a roach.
I don't have a solution to suggest. What are your ideas?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Two, the ACLU has drawn an important distinction- and their record in protecting the 1A is pretty consistent; namely, they have stated that they are not going to be offering defense to groups that rally with clubs, shields, weapons- clearly intending violent confrontation- nor are they interested in spending donor money on defense of the "right" of people to march heavily armed; that's a 2nd Amendment more than a 1st question.
Condemnation and exposure are maybe not as immediately satisfying, but more effective in the long run than trying to suppress the expression.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)I will defend anyone's right to free speech because that is the only way to ensure my own, which I need to counter hate speech.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)"Those nasty things you wrote about police misconduct might incite someone to attack a law enforcement officer. Therefore, those posts are not protected by the First Amendment."
That's what can happen with a broad view of "incitement" -- you mean well by it, but your definition isn't universally shared.
The distinction drawn in American law is not based on the content itself. Pro-Nazi speech or white supremacist speech isn't always incitement. The distinction is whether there's an imminent danger. See the summary that Warren DeMontague posted in #39 -- speech can be banned if it "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action". As it happens, that language is from a Supreme Court decision, Brandenburg v. Ohio, that overturned the conviction of a Klan leader. From the Wikipedia article about the case:
All that seems at least as vile as anything that came out of Charlottesville. The point of Brandenburg is that, although you could always draw some sort of causal link between speech and illegal conduct, the Supreme Court refused to allow a First Amendment loophole that would greatly weaken the protection of freedom of speech. In brief, suppression on the basis of incitement was no longer permitted just because speech had a "bad tendency". Instead, there had to be the danger of "imminent lawless action".
A bunch of neo-Nazis waving tiki torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us" does not represent an imminent threat that one of them will drive a car into a crowd of counter-demonstrators. That's just hindsight.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)DU rules bar things like urging a vote for Jill Stein over Hillary Clinton. That's because DU is a private entity that isn't bound by the First Amendment.
I hope everyone can agree that advocating a vote for Stein is protected First Amendment activity. That means that the government can't prohibit or punish the speech, even though the DU admins can. Similarly, the admins can apply whatever "incitement" standard they choose, without regard to the First Amendment.
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)We must counter ugly ideology with our own arguments.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)maybe we shouldn't defend speech that threatens anyone's human rights... or maybe speech that threatens the constitution.. or maybe speech that criticises a public official who has a different take on states rights.. or maybe.. religions, lack of religion... it's a can of worms to open up the first amendment to include or exclude specifics.
nini
(16,672 posts)Is to have to defend it for vile people like them.
Be careful what you wish for in shutting them down and I completely understand why you feel that way. That does not mean they can threaten etc. without repercussions and should be dealt with under the law if they do.
I do agree they are walking a very fine line here.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Rob H.
(5,354 posts)If you don't believe in free speech for people who disagree with you, you don't believe in free speech at all.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)― Karl R. Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies
Fluke a Snooker
(404 posts)Its entire platform would have all non-whites be snuffed of its rights with violence, so the GOP's existence goes beyond that of crying fire in a theater.