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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThis is a brilliant take from a poster at The Atlantic
Taran Wanderer 7 minutes ago
Everything about this escalation was unnecessary and could have been avoided. The primary purpose of the TPP was to give America a massive lever to use on China when they needed it. Trump stupidly pulled out of the TPP, he showed China early on that he was a clown not worth taking seriously, and he's so completely helpless and weak inside the beltway that all the bad actors in the Eastern Hemisphere smell blood in the water.
This escalation isn't about North Korea. It's about China. Kim JU has seen that China is effectively nudging and winking him along, so he's taking it farther and farther, and the reason China is nudging and winking in the background is that NK is another tool they can use to become the dominant geopolitical force on earth.
Make no mistake, China will shut down the last dregs of their trade with NK before this all escalates into war, and when they do, this particular escalation will cease. But China will allow things to continue to heat up to the point that the whole world is terrified. China gets to play the hero when the time comes. They want to make a show that they are the only ones who can stop this sh*tshow in the face of American impotence. Everything that's happening in that region right now is about China becoming the dominant player in the world as America bumbles and stumbles under the most incompetent leadership in its history.
tazkcmo
(7,304 posts)The Wielding Truth
(11,415 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)BobTheSubgenius
(11,572 posts)It's almost part of their DNA. There is an old saying in China: "If a man does not prosper, then his son. If the son does not prosper, then the grandson."
They are leaning almost from birth to take a multi-generational view on bettering their lot. Too many people here can't even wait till payday to have what they want.
Lucky Luciano
(11,264 posts)There is also a lot of short term thinking and corruption there as well - the Achilles heel of a burgeoning power.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,380 posts)I saw a piece a few weeks ago that indicated that they are investing in the African continent in ways that will make them, NOT US, major players as things progress in the various African nations on the cusp of major development and progress.
Seem they're placing themselves at beating us in a game we fucking invented.
BTW, Lucky...it's good to see you posting on occasion. Of all the members on this board, you have my utmost respect for your accomplishments. I hope all is well and all your trades are net gains!
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Build enough nukes to be dangerous, but don't go nuts building them, they know they have enough to kill their adversaries, why make more. Pushing it's way to the lead on clean energy and climate change while we retrench.
jpljr77
(1,004 posts)It wasn't that long ago, you know. Reactionaries on both sides hated TPP because their inflamers told them to. In fact, the only Democrat in favor of TPP this time last year and beyond was the President.
STOP FALLING FOR BUMPERSTICKER POLITICS.
ashredux
(2,609 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)How does a Amerasian trading bloc that excludes them help them?
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Of course, he also said he would never let Russia into the Ukraine.
TheBlackAdder
(28,235 posts)They do this in Central & South America and Africa now.
The US and EU have trade agreements with nations that promote labor, finance and ecology. Most US & EU nations deal on short-term contracts and contracts that are smaller and can be canceled by corporations before their term ends--that causes costs and instability to countries dealing with the US and EU.
China, on the other hand, operates as a collective nation, and says, we'll sign on to multi-decade contracts for goods, and we don't care what you do to your labor, finance or ecology as long as we get the materials. Not only does that create income stability, but it saves emerging economies the costs of adhering to United Nation MDGs.
China is now the chief trading partner with nearly half of the Central and South American countries, displacing the US.
China then sells their goods back to those nations, specifically undercutting US and EU goods to make those nations dependent on China's low costs. More dangerously is that China sells goods cheaper than what are made in-state, so it slowly displaces local workers, lowers wages further and makes the nationals even more reliant on Chinese goods.
===
TPP would hamstring TPP nations to these development goals, while China remains on the outside, picking off the weaknesses of each nations individually, and undercutting other TPP nations. The only way TPP would work is if Chain was a signer--which they hinted at becoming, but decided not to join. China's leverage remains if they are not a TPP nation.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,380 posts)They may be able to dominate markets in the short term with cheap labor, but we are herein referring to a labor pool that is waking up and wanting cars, air conditioning, refrigerators, etc. They won't stand for a buck an hour for very long.
The other thing looming large over China is a massive real estate bubble that could make what we had in 2008 look like child's play. There are basically entire cities of high rise apartment complexes that are empty and being used by the new wealthy Chinese middle class as an investment vehicle.
When that bubble bursts, watch the fuck out.
China has been selling off their holding in US Treasury securities over the last couple years. They are no longer the largest holder of long term US debt instruments. What are they doing with the cash that results from those sales?
Keeping their banks afloat, is my bet, and I don't think I'm alone.
TheBlackAdder
(28,235 posts)They are playing the long game, as we just look to whatever year or quarter is in play.
Since they work as a collective state, their financial structure is different than a capitalist system.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,380 posts)And those banks make loans
If they're long on a short position, they have a massive amount of risk exposure
TheBlackAdder
(28,235 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,380 posts)Just remember, the favorite expression in financial circles back in January-February of 2008 was "A soft landing"
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Moral Compass
(1,527 posts)The poster is absolutely correct. China will keep this from actually happening, but this is a treacherous fire they're playing with.
While I'm confident that China can rein in Kim Jong Un I'm not at all confident we can rein in our President.
He wants and needs his Reichstag fire, Tonkin Gulf, his justification for war...
He needs a war like a junkie needs a fix. This Russia issue is getting really real with the pre-dawn, no knock raid on Paul Manafort's house.
Trump is trying to stay one step ahead and throwing up more tweet shit every day. But the "fire and fury as the world has never seen" was a master stroke of distraction.
Nothing like the threat of imminent nuclear war to get everyone to look in some other direction than Mueller and the grand juries he's impaneled.
That Trump would go to this unthinkable well is proof positive that all of us that said he was completely unsuited to the office were spot on. It also underscores that this is a man who believes in nothing other than his money and his power and has no moral compass to guide him.
He is using the death of millions (maybe billions) and the destruction of the planet as a shield. There is nothing this cornered rat will not do--including using nuclear weapons.
While I'm not curled up in a fetal position sucking my thumb and whimpering I'm terrified at a very deep level. We have to rely on cooler heads to prevail. What a great time for the country to decide to host the most dangerous Amateur Hour ever.
forgotmylogin
(7,539 posts)He probably equates it to his catch phrase. He loves firing things. And pushing buttons.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I read people with your mindset on this talk about Trump's distractions. Trump has been tweeting wildly for months, but a key figure in russiagate still had his damned house raided this week. Mueller is like a bloodhound, he smells blood and won't be distracted.
Moral Compass
(1,527 posts)Nowhere in what I wrote did I say that I thought Trump's distractions would work. They certainly won't work on Mueller.
My fear is that the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces will start a war to change the country's focus. If that happens you could see Mueller fired when the country decides that this sort of investigation is unpatriotic in time of war.
Baitball Blogger
(46,772 posts)Russia. He owns the escalation problem. If any of the information in the original post is true, China is only looking for detente. An equalizing force. And North Korea is playing Trump to the max. China can pull the reins in whenever it wants to, and will look like a major super power.
Trump is as much a loser as his supporters.
I'm not sold on the TPP. Nor do I believe that Obama should be blamed for not taking a stronger role against NK. I think Trump is just going to stumble into every crack and fissure that exists between foreign countries because he's a drunk bull in a China shop.
h2ebits
(649 posts)I agree with you completely.
The only statement that I disagree with in the original post was regarding the TPP. I was also not "sold" on it due to the power that was being given to corporations over the state. I read at least a year back that China has been working very hard to develop another "Silk Road" and the TPP was an attempt to block that effort. I feel that I am currently living through a sci-fi time warp where corporations run by a handful of people take over the earth and destroy it.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)Xi Jinping is visiting European capitals and telling them China is open for business.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)This has been going on much longer than either the TPP or Trump. China is unhappy with NK but it also has had to play a delicate game because the last thing it wants is a unified democratic Korea. The leadership there has served China's purpose of preventing any unification. But it is demonstrable that a nuclear armed NK is problematic for China and their larger goals.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)I am sure China is pleased there isn't an Amerasian trading bloc.
hunter
(38,339 posts)Very confused and very hungry refugees...
I don't think China worries much about a unified Korea. In China today it's all about business. South Korea and China are major trading partners.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)China really does not seem to give a shit about who is beside them as long as they can have trade and friendly relations with them.
aikoaiko
(34,185 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)We had the freedom to take trade actions against them without having to prove out point in world court.
After Trump was elected, China seemed to have shifted to encircling us. Our European allies are wondering whether they can trust us anymore, the Chinese leader is making frequent bilateral and small nation group forays into Europe to sell them on China.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Julian Fuckin' Assange who originally got all the useful idiots on the left worked up about TPP back in 2014-15, and by controlling the narrative through selectively leaked out-of-context documents he was able to successfully frame it as a "human rights" issue and it snowballed from there...
I remember asking repeatedly what stake Assange really had in killing a trade deal that wouldn't affect him personally in any way, I remember asking the "human rights" left what was so humanitarian about ceding a huge chunk of economic power to regressive regimes like China and Russia, and I remember asking what would happen if our allies simply cut their own trade deals with China and left us out in the cold (NOTE: This is exactly what happened and there was nary a peep of outrage from the anti-globalist left)... And I got shouted down every time.
mcar
(42,424 posts)I wondered what caused the far left to be so against it. Thanks for enlightening me!
When will people learn to stop being dupes?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Dissent in Russia gets one killed. Dissent in China gets one in jail and then exiled. In my mind, that difference is rather major.
Other than that, yes, Assange played a big part of the left, that is clear now.
Richard D
(8,803 posts)I was with one of my translators one day, and I asked him about a building we were near. I said that it looks very old.
His reply was something to consider. He said, no, it was built fairly recently, in the early 1700's. Recently. Think about that.
keithbvadu2
(36,981 posts)In America, if a building is 200 years old, it's historic and a national treasure.
In Europe, Africa, South America and Asia, if a building is 200 years old, it's time to wash the windows.
fierywoman
(7,699 posts)When I came back to the US and visited where the Declaration of Independence was written in Philadelphia I found it rather amusing that the guide cautioned us to be gentle to the building because it was so old!
bucolic_frolic
(43,401 posts)we're going to be unable to buy spare parts for anything
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)China and the US are mutually dependent on each other.
The Chinese are worried about their own economic growth. Considering that is where they are, they are not going to close of their biggest and most important market.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/06/08/china-posts-surprise-surge-exports-worries-linger-economic-growth/amp/
bucolic_frolic
(43,401 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)our shores.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)If China focused on growing internally and raising the standard of living there, they will blow past us. There is no way 350 million can compete with >1.5 billion. When I say grow internally, I am not talking about build cities and hope some American or European companies show up for cheap labor. I mean develop agriculture that feed Chinese inexpensively, improve schools and keep their bright college aged people at home.
Mountain Mule
(1,002 posts)secondwind
(16,903 posts)JHan
(10,173 posts)FairWinds
(1,717 posts)" The primary purpose of the TPP was to give America a massive lever to use on China when they needed it."
not true at all - read the Doc, it was mostly about corporate governance (them over us) and
patent (over) protection.
And then there is the personification - always a bad idea when trying to understand nation states,
which do not "nudge and wink" nor behave as unitary rational actors.
If Taran Wanderer wants to be taken seriously, he should post under his own name.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)FairWinds
(1,717 posts)especially read Ch 9 - which denies dispute resolution standing
to anyone but corps and governments.
Can you give me a source that defends this statement? Didn't think so.
" The primary purpose of the TPP was to give America a massive lever to use on China when they needed it."
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)FairWinds
(1,717 posts)I have learned over the years to be highly skeptical of the corporate media.
I think you were misled . .
http://fair.org/home/do-corporate-media-need-to-lie-to-promote-trade-deals/
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)I see irony:
-FairWinds
George Kennen wrote the Containment theory under a nom de plume.
Progressive dog
(6,922 posts)but psychopaths like Trump and Kim are too dangerous to use like that.
cstanleytech
(26,340 posts)that nor would I be surprised if down the road we were to learn that they were providing the missiles and even helped stage those nuke tests with old nukes from their own stockpiles to distract the US and the other Western powers.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,163 posts)Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)They are now state sponsors of terrorism. Being allies with NK makes them de facto sponsors of a rogue state threatening its neighbors with nuclear annihilation, ie state terrorists. Sanction their banks and their trade with us. With the immense trade deficit they run with us, they need us far more than we need them. There's no shortage of countries who'd like to replace China as our cheap manufacturers.
Raster
(20,998 posts)...the World's new day belongs to them. tRump* is a useful idiot for both... for China unwittingly so, for Russia, all by design.
There really is not a WORSE POTUS we could have "elected" at this time. A man of medium intelligence with marked personality disorders and extremely questionable moral distinction. A high narcissist with marked sociopathic overtones with an over, over inflated sense of self-importance. tRump* has no historical grounding or any idea of the concept of public service... willingly so.
Hillary Clinton would have been pretty much the opposite and would have helped guide this country down a more correct path. tRump* is leading all of us down a dark path, that grows darker and more fetid with each step.
Further, Gorka, Miller, Bannon... the three men so close to the seat of American power that should give every rational and sane American nightmares.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)or they will allow the war to start to take the US down a peg.
Nitram
(22,922 posts)They must have numerous moles in top NK government positions.
Civic Justice
(870 posts)that is proven in how China makes and deal with agreement for their investment in Africa.
Many nations no longer are seeking out Americans because of the history of unfair encroachment and incessant greed, with little regard for the people of the nation they want to create their imperialist dominance gaming.
We as a nation of people better learn to change and we better learn it quickly.
But as long as our University's, (Ivy League) teach greed programming... things will only get worst for America.
Nitram
(22,922 posts)They understand the judicious use of power above all. Look what happened to Tibet...
(BTW, do you realize you were resounding to a post from August 2017?)
Civic Justice
(870 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 30, 2018, 09:49 PM - Edit history (3)
China also knows that if its GDP falls any where near 5% they will be in trouble, they become stressed even at 7%.. because it cost money to maintain all the infrastructure they have massively built. But they also know, they still have more than 600 million people who has to by some means be lifted from dire poverty and standard function poverty...
they invest around the world, to try and get growth income.
CONDITION AND CHALLENGES- AMERICANS WILL SELL ANYTHING FOR SHORT TERM PROFIT FOR INDIVIDUALS
China has an aged workforce as well, they've been cranking out labor production for 40+ years, and those people are nearing 60yrs of age plus. They use many migrant workers. and here in America we are too dumb to realize the value of migrant workers, because migrants are not only workers, they are very innovative as well.
N. Korea will be a boom for China, because its a vast labor pool, that is a "disciplined society", and overly eager and desperate to work and earn... Trump thinks he will get to tap that labor pool for his wealthy cronies, but China is smarter than that, and so is N. Korea... N. Korea may deal with allowing it for a decade, just as China allowed it in the 1980'sand 1990's until they were built up, and they "kicked the American white man out", but before they kicked him out of their companies, they let him push for free trade and build and set up avenues to ships Chinese goods into America, and once that was in place, the chinese had no more use for the American white male to be in leadership roles in their companies. ( the American white males greed was so great, he was blind to what he was doing to American people, and how he was damaging American industry, all he saw was SELFISH profit gains for himself, and in the process he screwed America. The chinese did not do it, it was done by American white men, Chasing Greed in China, with absolutely no regard for the damage he was doing to American) The America white man was so driven by greed, he also began to "sell anything and evrything to China, for short term profit, and the Chinese saw his stupidity, and they bought it because they knew the white man has absolutely no sensibilities of the value or respect for legacy industry)... The Chinese as well as many other nations, they don't sell their industry like American white men do. Because they think in the Long Game Terms and Respect the Long Term stability pursuits for the benefit of their society and its Future.
American Universities did nothing but train a groups of savages, they savagely rip off American people with financial swindles, and destroyed the concept of "service", until nothing in America wants to provide service anymore. They lay off the people and customers can't find a knowledgeable service assistance, because the white man's idea is not to pay people.
CUSTOMER SERVICE AND THE VALUE OF IT
Go to places like Thailand, even their 711 and other convenience stores have 3 or more workers, because they know the value of service... here in American, they put (1) person in the store, and expect that person, to clean, stock, service the customers and work for less than enough to even pay their rent and maintain even a one bedroom apartment.
The more we know, the better we can demand our politicans promote our interest!!! We need to learn more!!! and continue learning....throughout our lives....
See: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210808173
WHY DOES AMERICAN GREED LEAD TO PEOPLE TELLING CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY CAN'T DO
In America, you go to business and they are quick to "tell you want they can't do"... but in Asian, in business, they will tell you what they "can to" and they will find a way to get it done. Even in America, you go to business run by many foreign people they will "tell you, yes we can do it" and they won't charge you a arm and a leg. Go to a business run by SOME white men, they tell you want they "don't do" and if they tell you they can do it, they charge you a arm and a leg.
Its why people look for "handi men".... its why the white man does not want "immigrants" because immigrants still believe in providing service and they have a "can do attitude"... where as the white men all too frequently want to charge the highest prices and will give you the lowest grade product or repair replacement party he can find.
SHOPPING FOR SERVICE AND FAIR PRICING AND REPAIR SERVICE
I have a black man who services my Central Heating Unit, but first I called a company of white men, the first thing they tried to tell me was that I had to buy a whole new system. The black man came, checked my system, and told me what part was causing the problem, and he went and bought the part, did not double the price of the part, and installed it and I've had no problem from my unit. I call him on a yearly basis, to come and service my unit to insure its prepared for the seasonal usage.
GREED AND POOR SERVICE
Why the incessant greed by some white men, is destroying everything in America. I have met some white men, who come by and offer services, and they don't come with outrageous quotes, and they do good work.. I find foreign people, who do things and actually takes time to explain what they are doing. I took my phone to a store, a foreign ethnic man, who is an American... not only explained the situation, he sold me a phone that was better, and did so at a cost that was reasonable, and even told me, that it will give me as good function and service as the higher cost new phone. I bought what he said, and I have absolutely no problem with the unit. I did not have to spend $400+ dollars for it. I paid just over $100 and it does everything I need it to do.
Look at the corporations being sold in America... its PURE GREED !!!! And they destroy the lives of millions of Americans, with unemployment and underpaid employment.
If you think any of this is not true, go to the store and see how difficult it is to find a service assistant, call up and compare prices when you need something done, call a white man, then call a black man, and then call another ethnic person, and compare the quotes.... then come back and post what you find.
AMERICAN INDUSTRY AND BUSINESS
Its American people who is destroying American Industry, America Service and American Consumer Business, because he is not satisfied with "reasonable profit".. they are in a rush to try and make a killing, and live like someone wealthy, rather than to live as someone who continues to make a sustainable profit.
We see them OVER-LEVERAGE every industry that exist in America, and then over pay the executives and all the do nothing people with titles, and within a few years the business is in trouble, claiming a loss,but they won't reduce the executive pay, and they won't stop creating fake data to borrow and further encumber the industry.
People should stop being hoodwinked by the fancy look of a office, and the fancy car and fancy clothing of business people, because in the end,.... you are the one paying for that fancy stuff.
BANKING
Banks now count their profits in BILLIONS EVERY (3) MONTHS.... where do you think that money comes from, it comes from RIPPING OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE with crazy insidious fee and over charges on everything. They are so greedy, you go to the bank. an they want you to use a Ipad.... NO... Hell No... if you want to deal with my money, then you hire a human being to deal with me.
I keep no more than enough money in a checking account to pay my bills and grocery and gas. I'm not leaving my money there for them to pay me next to nothing, or conjure up some fees... while they use my money to create fiction. We all saw Wells Fargo do it to Millions of People... all so they could pretend they were doing better business than they were, and all they did was screw up peoples credit.
I know how to invest, and I study what to invest in. IF anyone notices, Sharebuilders had no fees, it was a fixed rate per trade, then Capital One bought them, and Now Capital One is selling them to ETrade... I had etrade more than a decade ago, and they did nothing but whittle at my money with fees. So... I will cancel my account with Capital One before they switch over to Etrade...
Then I will study and search for a low cost investment vehicle, that won't eat my money up with fees.
IF ONE STARTS A BUSINESS- DON'T TAKE IT PUBLIC, MAINTAIN CONTROL YOURSELF AND GROW SLOWLY, IF YOU PRODUCT IS GOOD YOU WILL GROW, IF YOU PRICES ARE REASONABLE, YOU WILL SUSTAIN YOUR GROWTH.