Google Fires Engineer Who Wrote Memo Questioning Women in Tech

[steve2470]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/07/business/google-women-engineer-fired-memo.html

SAN FRANCISCO — Google on Monday fired a software engineer who wrote an internal memo that questioned the company’s diversity efforts and argued that the low number of women in technical positions was a result of biological differences instead of discrimination.

The memo, called “Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber,” angered many in Silicon Valley because it relied on certain gender stereotypes — like the notion that women are less interested in high-stress jobs because they are more anxious — to rationalize the gender gap in the tech industry. The memo quickly spread outside the company, as other Google employees railed against many of its assumptions.

In a companywide email, Google’s chief executive, Sundar Pichai, said portions of the memo had violated the company’s code of conduct and crossed the line “by advancing harmful gender stereotypes in our workplace.”

The memo put the company in a bind. On one hand, Google has long promoted a culture of openness, with employees allowed to question senior executives and even mock its strategy in internal forums. However, Google, like many other technology firms, is dealing with criticism that it has not done enough to hire and promote women and minorities.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. In before "by firing him they proved his point!"

[tonedevil]

12. I would argue...

he created a hostile workplace.

[still_one]

78. Excuse me, "by firing him they proved his point"? What point was that? That he is a sexist

misogynist

This isn't a question of free speech, this is someone trying to legitimize sexual discrimination, which is a violation of company policy

[Shandris]

123. The poster said 'In before'. It's kind of a shorthand forum meme that...

...means 'I managed to sneak in a post quickly, before someone posted (((the thing that is 'in before')))'. It's said when you rather quickly expect someone to trot out an excuse that is tendentious, illogical, overblown, etc. The poster didn't mean it as their own opinion.

[still_one]

126. Thanks for explaining it to me, which is why I asked the question regarding its meaning

[Phoenix61]

2. I received a BS in Computer Information Sciences in 1987

There weren't many other females in my class. To this day, people look shocked when I tell them my degree is CIS. I thought we would be so much farther than we are.

[Adrahil]

3. Many women are still discouraged from STEM careers.

And crap like this BS memi doesn't help.

[TeacherB87]

10. Science is part of STEM

If we reject scientific data because our interpretation of it doesn't mesh with our ideology, and we are encouraging women to think this way, then we are actually making women less prepared to enter STEM fields not more.

Bias was obviously important enough for him to address it at length in his piece.

[bettyellen]

18. Important enough because it bolstered his conservative ideology though? His bias

Against women set him on the journey looking for evidence. He's literally against trying to encourage women at all. I'm sure it comforts him to find "logical reasons" though.

[TeacherB87]

21. Literally nothing you just said is factually accurate.

He isn't conservative, nor is that supported by anything he wrote. I have no idea why you think he's against women but again, not based on anything he actually says or thinks. He wants an effective diversity policy, which would in theory do a better job of figuring out how to encourage women to join STEM fields. But pretending that scientific data doesn't exist because your ideology disagrees with it is indefensible, and actually shows the true colors of your own bias against people and facts that don't share or corroborate your own views.

You can try to illogically infer whatever you like about what he says, just don't expect me to take it seriously.

[bettyellen]

26. Factually- he's politically conservative and thinks Google is biased toward liberals....

And he's literally missed the forest for the trees- scientists are overwhelmingly liberal politically. He feels like a bit of an outcast- but is blaming Google, and not the profession he chose. Sorry, if you didn't know he's politically conservative, you didn't read it all.

[TeacherB87]

33. Right, so you get to assume he's conservative because he isn't a leftist. And I didn't read

the document because I don't agree with your counterfactual opionion. You didn't even address how unsubstantiated your original post is, you're just repeating it using different words. That's not good enough.

[bettyellen]

40. So you're still defending something you didn't read because... that's good enough? Nope. Go away.

You're literally taking wild uniformed guesses to defend a misogynist. I wish this wasn't the most boring and common thing on the internet, but it is. You're ill informed and have nothing to add to the conversation. You don't even know what the conversation is about, LOL.

[bettyellen]

48. Quote: "I didn't read the document" and if you didn't realize he IS conservative and upset by the

"Liberal echo chamber" at Google and you did read it, you need some help kid. I'll take you at your word, you didn't read it.

[Adrahil]

60. So apparently... your all sciency and stuff, so....

How do YOU justify his decision to conclude that "male" and "female" traits are not socially constructed because in his apparently exhaustive research (I'm going to guess he is NOT an anthropologist or psychologist) these traits are "universal."

If you really respect science, then you know that conclusion of his, right up near the beginning of the paper, and used to justify most of the rest of it, is just flat out unsupportable from a scientific position.

The data set is WAY to thin to make any such conclusion, especially in the light of what we are learning about epigenetics and early life influences on the development of the brain. His conclusions are FILLED with outcome bias.

And no more from me... by blood pressure cannot take it.

[bettyellen]

77. Perhaps you need to edit for clarity because you're ordering me not to read the research, genius.

So many !!! Perhaps you need to stop shouting petty meaningless insults, it's not emotionally healthy. And no one could take you seriously. LOL

[Adrahil]

79. He literally says...

"These differences aren't just socially constructed because they are universal across human culture."

That's a quote.

And no, I am not talking about sexual dimorphism, neither is he and you know it.

You're a troll.

But hey, he concludes that on average women have more neuroticism than men. That's scientific too, right?

For fuck's sake....

[spiderman17]

71. but if you're saying

there's epigenetic causes of "male" and "female" traits, that means such differences are not socially constructed but come through the expression of genes.

[Adrahil]

114. Epigenetics....

Is the study of how genes are turned on and off. That includes environmental factors for sure, and some recent evidence that use factors in early age drive epigenetics too, which may, for example, account for the phenomena many call "wiring the brain." In utero hormonal (the mother's hormones) factors can be involved, as well as post-natal intellectual stimulation. This appears to be part of the body organizing itself to suit what it thinks might be the competitive environment.

This area of research is still in its infancy. The wikipedia article gives an overview. The alleles involved in epigenesis are sometimes heritable. The expression is not necessarily.

My main point here is that early life experiences can express themselves in biological ways.

[spiderman17]

115. ok but

regardless of whether its genetic (hereditary) or epigenetic (expression of genes), you would agree that
(1) there are specific gender-linked traits (phenotypes) which
(2) have a biological basis?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

53. Not a conservative?

"Stop alienating conservatives.
○ Viewpoint diversity is arguably the most important type of diversity and political
orientation is one of the most fundamental and significant ways in which people
view things differently.
○ In highly progressive environments, conservatives are a minority that feel like
they need to stay in the closet to avoid open hostility. We should empower those
with different ideologies to be able to express themselves.
○ Alienating conservatives is both non-inclusive and generally bad business
because conservatives tend to be higher in conscientiousness, which is required
for much of the drudgery and maintenance work characteristic of a mature
company."

[bettyellen]

63. "Viewpoint diversity is arguably the most important type" says the guy who would benefit from it -

And is basically promoting the viewpoint that women are lesser in some ways. What a dolt to choose science as a career. Must be lonely!

[Dr Hobbitstein]

65. Indeed, and his loneliness and alienation due to his

wrongheaded views is most likely what led him to writing this memo.

[bettyellen]

69. I could sense his anger and sadness clouding his vision. He's on a quest to prove to us all...

He should fit in, his ideas should be accepted. The women he looks down on shouldn't say anything because he has charts and graphs proving he has "reasons". Sad fucker.

[Skittles]

124. they just hate it when they cannot be openly racist and sexist

fuck them

[TeacherB87]

70. Yep, everyone should just think the same way about everything.

That's the solution! And...geee...that idea has worked out so well in the past!

[bettyellen]

84. So now that you know he's a conservative, you take a different tack. By claiming I said things I did

Not. Dishonest, through and through. Well at least now you know a little bit about the jerk you're poorly defending here. I guess that's something.
But you're making up shit now- so the conversation is over. Sell it somewhere else, dude.

[uponit7771]

116. In some areas yes, we should... we shouldn't have half of us thinking cold blooded murder is ok and

... the other half not thinking its ok

[Ninsianna]

107. Well, the text of that document you failed to read might have given you a clue.

Pretending scientific data supports the notion that women can't handle stress is not only factual inaccurate it's downright ignorant.

It helps to actually understand logic and facts and then read what's being discussed before attacking people who don't share your wishful thinking. Don't expect to be taken seriously when you didn't read the document and then assert things that are absolutely made up.

[Adrahil]

20. I read that memo.... it wasn't exactly scientific.

The idea that women are ill-suited for STEM careers is psuedo-scientific nonsense that mistakes cultural biases for biological proclivities.

Asshat MRA's are pros at that shit, and frankly, I sick to fucking death of them.

I think a company that seeks to recruit and advance qualified women and minorities should be commended. And fuck-wits who don't support such efforts can go work somewhere else.

[TeacherB87]

23. Lol is that a direct quote?

"women are ill-suited for STEM"...if you want me to take you seriously you'll have to do better than completely mischaracterizing what he wrote.

"I think a company that seeks to recruit and advance qualified women and minorities should be commended." He literally says nothing to contradict this quote.

But enjoy being a part of the pointless witch-hunt!

[Adrahil]

30. Scott Adams, is that you?

Pass me my torch for the witch hunt, will ya?

I'm sick to death of misogynists attempting to rationalize their biases and cloak it in oh-so-reasonable rhetoric.

That guy got what he deserved.

[TeacherB87]

37. Nope on all counts. lol

[bettyellen]

43. He didn't even read the "manifesto" or know it was a defense of his conservative ideology, LOL.

Nothing says male privilege better than trying to shout down people when you don't know WTF you're even talking about, LOL.

[TeacherB87]

58. Nothing says "ignorance"

Better than literally lying about me to my face. I did read it. And no one shut you down. I disagree with you, why conflate the two? Does that make you feel like a righteous victim here? Good for you...

[bettyellen]

66. 1) you weren't aware he self identifies as conservative. 2) you said you "didn't read the document"

So either you didn't read it, or missed large parts where he whines about Google's liberal inclusive culture.

[ChubbyStar]

82. Betty didn't say "shut down' she said "shout down."

Maybe you need to read what she said again. Because reading is important.

[sweetloukillbot]

57. Sea Lions, man.

[uponit7771]

117. +1, and most MRA's remind me of the bro types ... whoa is the privileged

[rockfordfile]

72. Why are you defending what seems to be a far right-winger?

The guy clearly has a problem with women.

[demmiblue]

74. Two guesses.

Well, actually one.

[ChubbyStar]

86. Bada Bing Bada BOOM!

[Dr Hobbitstein]

87. Well, he's thrown out terms like "leftists" and "liberal elite"...

I'll let you guess.

[ChubbyStar]

94. I was laughing so hard at those posts

It was like the 3 Stooges minus 2 doing an act!

[lapfog_1]

101. OTOH

My sister got her MS in CS in 1974. I got my BS in CS (same university) in 1980.

Not to mention that my first serious paper in Computer Science (as a high school senior in 1974) was on one Jean Sammet ("History of Programming Languages). She just passed away earlier this year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_E._Sammet

And I had the honor to meet Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper in 1980 and I have one of her "nanoseconds" to this day.

There would be more women in Computer Science if only these women (and many many more like them) were celebrated in our culture rather than looked upon as oddities.

Lest we forget... the world's first "computer programmer" was a woman named Ada Lovelace

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace

And the programming language "Ada" is named after her.

The term "debug" refers to the women who kept the Eniac computer running by literally going through the hundreds of glowing tubes (before transistors) and removing the moths attracted to the lights and who shorted out the circuit preventing the machine from executing the program.

And last summer's excellent movie "Hidden Figures" about the contribution of women, especially women of color, to NASA and space flight by... solving math problems and writing software.

[nini]

132. I earned mine in '92

People are always shocked when they hear that.. I'm an older female in the tech field and it still surprises them.

[hunter]

135. Late 'seventies every engineering class I took had one or two women at most...

... and they had to be tough.

Computer Science was Fortran and newfangled Data Structures in Pascal. Praise the Lord I never suffered Java.

So much as I love computers and other electronics, I changed my major to biology which was close to 50/50 men and women, and classmates were much less likely to talk about cars and "babes" when they were not studying. I hate cars, and objectifying someone as a "babe" in my matriarchal family, very strong women of the Wild West skilled with knives and guns and general mayhem, intolerant of bad men, was unthinkable.

I was fortunate, I guess, to have an engineering roommate who didn't talk about women like that, but mostly it was because he was terrified of women and afraid he'd end up in hell for lustful thoughts outside of marriage. How anyone would ever manage to get married or even date without a few lustful thoughts, I don't know. He also listened to Christian Rock and was overly excited about Bob Dylan's Slow Train Coming, which to me was unforgivable.

[TeacherB87]

4. Totally misleading article.

Questioning the efficacy of a diversity policy is important if the diversity policy is to function correctly. It is also not the same as "questioning women in tech."

Saying, "[Damon] argued that the low number of women in technical positions was a result of biological differences instead of discrimination," is a blatant mischaracterization because it implies that he sees the gender differences as ONLY biological, which is not true. He clearly acknowledges how bias could influence the disparity. He just doesn't accept that the disparity is explained by one cause.

The memo didn't rely on gender stereotypes, it relied on a vast body of research on gender. To suggest otherwise is ignorant at best and an outright lie at worst.

When we misrepresent views just because they contradict the ideology we believe, we are no better than the conservatives. This pattern of behavior is dangerous as well because it distracts us from people who actually hold sexist views against women. Damon is not a sexist. And his firing will only support the notions of right-wing conspiracy theorists.

It also makes it harder for us to have successful anti-Trump efforts. At this point I know so many typically Democratic-leaning voters who are disgusted by these kinds of falsehoods and become less and less likely, by the day, to identify as liberals or Democrats. So ask yourself how what happened her actually helps us enact liberal policy solutions to our nation's problems.

[DavidDvorkin]

5. Yes, exactly.

[leftstreet]

8. His 'research' led him to conclude really dumbshit things

You can read his report

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evzjww/here-are-the-citations-for-the-anti-diversity-manifesto-circulating-at-google

What kills is his 'conclusions' that gender differences are biological. Nowhere in his energetic appeal does he acknowledge or even seem to understand cultural conditioning

It makes him sound like a time traveler from The Mayflower

[TeacherB87]

9. Did you read his memo?

He doesn't conclude that gender differences are solely or even mostly biological. He doesn't infer a proportion. And he acknowledges bias as an important factor. So I'd say he clearly demonstrates a knowledge of cultural conditioning.

Calling his conclusions "dumbshit" is just a cop-out.

You seem to be more concerned with adhering to ideological purity than understanding facts as best you can.

I'm not going to assume you're doing this intentionally, but I encourage you to reflect on why you're willing to participate in this mischaracterization when understanding how to effectively promote diversity is supposed to be a cornerstone of leftist thinking.

[leftstreet]

11. He loves to talk about 'prenatal testosterone' and 'castration'

And yes, I've read the memo

Lots of 'research' on woo crap. Too bad he didn't research more (oops any) historical socioeconomic cultural impact

[TeacherB87]

15. Does that mean you love to talk about "crap"?

Because you used it in your statement. According to your logic that he "loves" to talk about something because he mentions it.

[leftstreet]

19. ?? This makes no sense n/t

[TeacherB87]

25. You said he loves talking about

prenatal testosterone and male castration because he mentions them. You mentioned the word "crap" in what you said. Therefore, according to your logic, you love talking about crap.

I'm not the one who doesn't make sense here. lol

[leftstreet]

44. Oh, and Communism! He fucking hates Communism!

I forgot that one

And he's also afraid that if men are encouraged to shed their more rigid societal role, they'll leave tech jobs for professions more 'feminine'

[bettyellen]

49. He weird thing is he thinks he's being "logical" but betrays so much fear and anger...

Funny he didn't pick up on that. Weird as fuck. He should be fired for being a moron.

[bettyellen]

32. That makes no sense, LOL. His manifesto is based on crap though- so you're on to something.

[LanternWaste]

16. I however, will assume you are rationalizing his memo intentionally

"I'm not going to assume you're doing this intentionally..."

I however, will assume you are rationalizing his memo intentionally as something other than what it in fact is.

Though I do sympathize with your position than anyone who disagrees with you is either adhering to ideology or merely did not read the memo... as it is a most convenient method of dismissing other perspectives.

[B2G]

14. Thank you.

And I am a woman who's been in technology for 30 years. I started my career in the Silicon Valley.

[Adrahil]

24. I read that memo....

The dude almost completely ignores cultural biases in the development of disparities.

And in the end, he really has nothing to say except the usual misogynist bullshit about it.

I'm sorry, I think you are completely wrong on this.

P.S. most research (but not all) on gender is junk too, ignoring epigenetics and developmental bias.

[mythology]

27. Utter bullshit.

He is clearly saying that women are biologically less capable of being coders. And he "cites" nonsense. He's a whining little shit, nothing more.

[TeacherB87]

28. No he isn't

Saying "bullshit" and "nonsense" doesn't actually make you correct or convincing. Try harder.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

31. Enjoy your stay.

Oh defender of misogyny.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

45. PROJECTION!

Straight. Up. Fuckery.

https://medium.com/yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788

[kwassa]

61. Here is how he is a misogynist.

His central thesis is sexist to the core. Here are quotes from his memo:

On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. These differences aren’t just
socially constructed because:
● They’re universal across human cultures
● They often have clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone
● Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify
and act like males
● The underlying traits are highly heritable
● They’re exactly what we would predict from an evolutionary psychology perspective

Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these
differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men
and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why
we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences
are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything
about an individual given these population level distributions.

.........................................................

Note that contrary to what a social constructionist would argue, research suggests that "greater
nation-level gender equality leads to psychological dissimilarity in men’s and women’s
personality traits." Because as “society becomes more prosperous and more egalitarian, innate
dispositional differences between men and women have more space to develop and the gap
that exists between men and women in their personality traits becomes wider.” We need to stop
assuming that gender gaps imply sexism.

This thesis is sexist in nature, and he does nothing to support it in this memo except for broad, sweeping sexist statements.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

67. THEY ARE NOT FUCKING FACTS!

That's the sexist fucking part! They are stereotypes at best.

[TeacherB87]

76. Saying it doesn't make it true...

I don't know what else to tell you...

[Dr Hobbitstein]

80. You're right.

He said it, it's not true.

Straight. Up. Fuckery.

[kwassa]

73. I have no obligation to convince you. Damore's statements are not facts because you claim them to be

You clearly agree with his thesis of biological determinism. Defend it.

[TeacherB87]

75. Nope

I don't agree holistically with biological determinism, but its certainly part of the picture. But I understand that this kind of nuance is escaping you right now. I'm not going to defend something I don't believe.

[kwassa]

92. You have no defense, except declaring others wrong.

What nuance? You have presented nothing.

[alarimer]

131. If this person is actually a teacher, I weep for his/her students. n/t

[Dr Hobbitstein]

29. Wow. Way to defend a straight up misogynist.

That's some straight up fuckery, right there.

[TeacherB87]

36. Way to dilute misogyny through overuse

so that people are too distracted with this nonsense to actually focus on real misogyny. Name calling doesn't make you right.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

41. And your bloviating that this guy is right makes you look like...

Hell, don't even need to say it.

Here's a former Google employee, breaking it down for you...

https://medium.com/yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788

If you're not still being willfully ignorant, maybe you can learn something.

[TeacherB87]

52. Thanks for the condescension!

Right wingers don't even need to make the case for liberal elitism. You're doing it for them.

Good job! Let me know how successful you and those that agree with you are...newsflash: you won't be.

Nice try shaming me though! It was ever so convincing!

[Dr Hobbitstein]

55. Liberal elitism?

JFC. You're hear spouting all the great RW buzzwords and railing against "leftists" while claiming to be a fucking Democrat?

I call bullshit.

[rockfordfile]

81. Now you have showed yourself

[spiderman17]

54. this guy

doesn't disagree with some of the premises of the original manifesto i.e. that women are better at empathy. However his conclusion is that this makes people with these traits better (not worse) engineers.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

56. Actually, the guy I posted disagrees COMPLETELY with the manifesto,

yet conceeded on the empathy part, with the caveat.

[spiderman17]

83. he agrees with the original premise

of broad generalizations of males vs females but disagrees on the desired outcome

[Dr Hobbitstein]

85. There's a LOT more nuance to it than that.

I suggest re-reading it.

He straight up says the guy IS WRONG!

[spiderman17]

95. well let's see what he wrote

I’m not going to spend any length of time on (1); if anyone wishes to provide details as to how nearly every statement about gender in that entire document is actively incorrect,¹ and flies directly in the face of all research done in the field for decades, they should go for it. But I am neither a biologist, a psychologist, nor a sociologist, so I’ll leave that to someone else.

basically he said "I think guy A is wrong about his statements on gender but I don't have the expertise to point out what he's wrong about.". By the way, guy A (who wrote the original manifesto) has a degree in molecular and cellular biology and systems biology. I think guy A has probably more expertise in biology than guy B.

His second big point (2) is that engineering is much more than coding, and guy A doesn't understand that female traits are actually very valuable in this regard.

His last point is that no matter what guy A felt or thought, he should have just kept his opinions to himself (which ironically is what Guy A's point was, that there's no tolerance for dissent).

[Dr Hobbitstein]

118. You're ignoring context.

" (1) Despite speaking very authoritatively, the author does not appear to understand gender."

That blurb comes beforehand, and is an important qualifier. He's not agreeing with the guy, he's saying he's not qualified to break it down bit by bit, but the dude is wrong.

[Skittles]

122. if he said the same about black people

would you be so quick to defend?

I have worked in tech for almost four decades and the idea that women are not as good as men is absolutely fucking RIDICULOUS

[Blue_Tires]

103. That's a damned charitable interpretation...

And that's all I'll say.

[tenderfoot]

112. Flagged.

Goodbye to bad rubbish.

[Blue_Tires]

127. Not to worry, your boy Julian is coming to the rescue:

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[kwassa]

47. Please delete this link. Cernovich is an alt-right propogandist.

Mike Cernovich (born November 17, 1977) is an American alt-right[6] social media personality, writer, and conspiracy theorist. He describes himself as "new right"[7] and an "American nationalist."[8] Cernovich's website "Danger & Play" started in 2012 and was originally known mainly for its content on men's empowerment. During the 2016 US presidential election campaign, it evolved into a largely pro-Donald Trump and anti-Hillary Clinton political blog.[9][10]

Cernovich periodically promotes conspiracy theories,[9] such as Hillary Clinton and other high-ranking Democratic Party officials being involved in a pedophile ring located in the basement of a Washington, DC pizzeria.[8][11][12] Cernovich currently serves as a regular host of The Alex Jones Show on InfoWars, a radio show that often promotes right-wing conspiracy theories.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Cernovich

[steve2470]

59. ok nt

[spiderman17]

7. that women

score higher on neuroticism in psychological studies is actually true.

[LanternWaste]

17. You'll of course, point to objective, peer-reviewed data to support your premise, yes?

You'll of course, point to objective, peer-reviewed data to support your premise, yes?

[B2G]

34. There are a ton, but you can start here.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

[spiderman17]

35. here you go

it's not a premise, it's a factual statement


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031866/

In college and adult samples, women score higher then men on the Five Factor Model (FFM) personality traits of Neuroticism and Agreeableness.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9200973

Women obtained higher means than men on neuroticism in all countries

[bettyellen]

22. Extrapolating on that bit of data gave us Trump because men just aren't as hot headed....

Oh yeah, they are! Just in a more dangerous and life threatening way. A woman could write a similar screed using studies about men too. But most would know how ridiculous it sounds. That more people don't realize what a myopic ass this guy is tells you how far we need to go.

[Coventina]

38. The whole idea of "neuroticism" was invented by a misogynist.

Fail.

[spiderman17]

46. if that is true

how has that trait been statistically identified across different populations as a phenotype?

[Coventina]

50. it's junk science. Freud's theories are just that: theories

There's no such thing as "proof" when it comes to trying to measure intangibles like that.

[spiderman17]

90. oh

do you believe in mental disorders like schizophrenia, which is predominantly affects males?

[Coventina]

91. Schizophrenia can be medically diagnosed with brain scans.

My grandmother had it.

Neuroses cannot.

[spiderman17]

96. Schizophrenia

is a mental disorder. Probably these brain scans were used to rule out other possible diseases.

http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/schizophrenia-tests

There’s no simple test to find out if someone you love has schizophrenia. It’s a severe mental illness that is very hard to diagnose.

[Coventina]

97. So are a lot of diseases.

But being "neurotic" is not a medical condition.

[Skittles]

98. LOL

try doing a study that acknowledges that women have to be twice as good at anything to be considered half as good as men

then go fuck yourself

[Coventina]

99. LOL! I just love how you cut to the chase, Skittles

I should have started with that.....

[ChubbyStar]

106. Thing of beauty

[DLevine]

109. Tip o the hat to you, Skittles.

That was awesome.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

119. This.

[bettyellen]

100. Junk science going the way of "women are more emotional" which left out anger, an emotion....

And emotion that has real negative consequences world wide. Men are too angry, should not be let out doors is pretty much the flip side of this guys argument, LOL.

[Orsino]

13. You may only find more entitled white men in a Catholic archdiocese.

This behavior in a bastion of whitemaleitude shouldn't surprise.

[steve2470]

51. WHO IS JAMES DAMORE? ALT-RIGHT FURIOUS AFTER GOOGLE FIRES ENGINEER OVER ANTI-DIVERSITY MEMO

http://www.newsweek.com/who-james-damore-alt-right-furious-after-google-fires-engineer-over-anti-647716

Google has fired the employee that wrote a widely criticized memo suggesting that "biological differences" are the reason why there are so few women leaders in the tech industry. The tech giant's decision sparked outrage on social media, with Wikileaks founder Julian Assange and alt-right media outlets claiming the company was censoring James Damore, the sofware engineer behind the leaked memo.

The 28-year-old had been working at the company since 2013 after achieving a PhD in systems biology from Harvard University, according to his social media profiles. He claimed he was fired in an email to far right news website Breitbart: “They just fired me for ‘perpetuating gender stereotypes,’” he wrote.

His 10-page document started circulating among Google employees on Friday and was first reported by tech news website Motherboard before being published in full by Gizmodo.

Several paragraphs in the document advanced old-fashioned ideas linked to biological determinism, reinforcing traditional gender roles. “Women, on average, have more neuroticism,” read one of the bullet points aiming to explain how the gender gap in the tech industry arises.

[bettyellen]

88. A sad and lonely young man, obvs. Looking for reasons to justify his worth.

[ChubbyStar]

102. No Ph.D.

Damore also pursued his Ph.D. in systems biology from Harvard University in from 2011 to 2013, according to his Linkedin profile. He is listed in the alumni section of the Harvard Systems Biology Ph.D. program, but Harvard told Wired that Damore did not complete his Ph.D. He did complete a master’s degree in systems biology in 2013, Harvard told Wired.

[Willie Pep]

121. He will likely become a right-wing martyr and hero now.

Books deals, TV appearances on Fox News, a YouTube channel, a Patreon account. He might make more money than when he was with Google.

[steve2470]

89. sincere apologies to the forum for the Cernovich link

I didn't know he was so alt right. Sorry!

[bettyellen]

110. He's a major vector for Tweeting Russian propaganda to American Alt Righties

[steve2470]

111. ah thanks for info!! nt

[bettyellen]

113. There's been talk lately he is "over" Trump but I don't trust much of the palace intrigue stuff.

[HeartachesNhangovers]

93. I would have fired him for disseminating policy

memos when he's supposed to be developing software.

He wrote it on his own time? Still fired for disseminating bogus policy documents.

Google has a culture that encourages employees to challenge conventional wisdom? Bullshit! Google is a for-profit corporation and exists to make money, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

[DonCoquixote]

104. Before the braying of "free speech!"

If he was knowingly doing somehting that could open up lawsuits and loss of customers for his company, they were well within their rights to fire him. He could probably make a fine living at Fox News or breitbart now, but google had every right to not want him in their staff.

[Doreen]

105. The way I saw it on TV was he said women do not handle stress as well as men.

I would like to see him take care of 5 children, clean house, help with homework, do the shopping, cook all meals, do the laundry, get the kids to appointments, get the kids to after school activities, make appointments with doctors, make appointments with the schools, and going to work. Oh, without another parent in the house.

I have met women who do all of that and believe me they handle a lot of stress. This asshole sits a desk working on the computer and going to meetings and maybe traveling some ( probably staying in plush hotels and enjoying the quiet ) so what nerve racking stress does he actually have ( or did have. )

[ChubbyStar]

108. Being a twerp is really hard

[The Mouth]

120. Bravo

[WinkyDink]

125. Who cares? Private company.

[apnu]

128. This is my take as well, but other people don't think so.

From what I can tell, all the people freaking out about this are MRA types. Those asshats aren't worth anybody's time.

Google's a private company. They have a culture they want to foster and being part of that culture is a job requirement. When you break that agreement, they can fire you.

This is right up there with people complaining that Disney Parks has hair and accessory requirements for the job. Well they are a private company with a certain look they want employees to have and if you want to work for the Mouse you'll look the part or look elsewhere for employment.

This isn't hard stuff.

[TNLib]

129. I'm a Hispanic Female programmer

I've worked in the south as a developer for 20 years and I've experienced both racism and sexism. I really thought the problem was more regional. It's really sad to think that this is a serious national problem particularly in startups. I tend to work in large corporate companies were there is recourse for harassment. Fortunately the issues I've complained about usually get resolved with the first line of management.

[kwassa]

133. I'm glad to hear they get resolved

Much I hear about women in the tech industry is really depressing.

[alarimer]

130. Good, it would have happened sooner had he posted a racist memo.

But because he was merely sexist, we are in the position of discussing whether his position has merit. It does not.

Whatever lack of women in STEM or, most importantly for Google, in Silicon Valley, is due SOLELY to social factors. One, being told INCESSANTLY that they are not good enough or smart enough for science, computer science, or math. Two, Silicon Valley is a toxic cesspool of asshole tech bros who have no ability to address women in a non-asshole way. Who wants to "lean-in" to that? And third, being told that all women need to do to make it in this business is to be "more assertive" when you can be goddamn sure that if they did that, they would be called bitches.

And finally, just mentally substitute "black people" or "Hispanic people" every place he talks about women and see what that sounds like. It sounds like bullshit, doesn't it? THAT'S BECAUSE IT IS!!!!!!!!! Any theory of why groups are underrepresented in ANY field can be laid solely at the feet of sexism and/or racism and structural inequality in education. Full stop. No amount of finessing the numbers or bullshitting with statistics will change it. Just fucking stop trying to justify your own biases. STOP.

Guess what? Hiring managers are biased. Mostly, nowadays, with implicit bias, that is insidious and almost instinctive. So they hire people who look like themselves. Or they follow stereotypes and biases the other way and hire mainly from groups that are alleged to be better at whatever field we are talking about. In STEM fields, that is often people of Asian background (which is not to say that they people they hire, whatever their background, are not also very good. They may very well be. But others are not given the chance to prove that they are also very good because of these implicit biases).

There is the added question of whether such a memo can create a hostile workplace. Yes, certainly, if it represents a pervasive and ongoing pattern (the definition from the EEOC). So, Google was within its rights and it was not a question of free speech because he posted this on a company message board and not, on say Facebook. Which would only make him an asshole, but not an unemployed asshole, theoretically.

[rusty fender]

134. Basically, James Damore's memo can be broken down

to two sentences:

1) I'm the smartest guy working at Google so why doesn't the company do everything I want it to do?

And

2)Why don't the women who work at Google worship the ground I walk on?