General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm seriously considering letting my subscription to "The Nation" lapse.
I'm getting really tired of their pro-Russia stance.
I mean, I get it, to an extent.
I don't think "the Russians" are our enemy. But Putin most definitely is. And, until he is gone, we cannot treat Russia as a friend.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)"The American Committee for East-West Accord."
Not unlikely there's also overlap in dark money sponsors.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Coventina
(27,223 posts)"Realism on Russia" by the editor Katrina Vanden Heuvel was kind of the last straw for me.
There have been a series of articles in previous issues, sorry I didn't document each one.
Yes, "Realism on Russia" sounds reasonable, but basically her bottom line is that we should ignore the undermining of our democracy and just make nice.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Her piece is well thought out and complete:
"We must investigate claims of Russian interference in the election, while also de-escalating a dangerous crisis"
Then she explains her points. Yes, Russia/Putin are extremely bad actors, but we have to work on diplomatic solutions.
vandel Heuvel wrote a very good opinion piece.
link:https://www.thenation.com/article/realism-on-russia/
leftstreet
(36,119 posts)That was my take
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Because so far, it seems to me Russia is willing to pay the diplomatic price necessary to undermine NATO and reclaim some of it's lost empire.
If Putin is determined to do that, I'm not sure "diplomatic solutions" are necessarily going to be successful. I mean, sure, always keep that door open, but I suspect Putin knows exactly how to string along a diplomat or two.
uponit7771
(90,371 posts)Maven
(10,533 posts)When someone attacks you, the response isn't diplomacy. It's countermeasures and deterrence.
BannonsLiver
(16,542 posts)And Trump Humper. So that might explain some things about their recent pro russian slant.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/05/17/princeton_russia_expert_stpehen_cohen_slanderous_assault_on_president_trump_is_greatest_threat_to_us_today.html
hlthe2b
(102,509 posts)booked much on progressive cable news shows. He is incredibly naive IMO or has sold out totally like Dershowitz.
BannonsLiver
(16,542 posts)Her stock has fallen in my eyes quite considerably.
hlthe2b
(102,509 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I unfollowed Katrina Vanden-Putin a few months ago.
They are so desperate for the election to have been about their specific issue (blah blah Democrats have abandoned class in favor of "special" concerns...i.e., race and gender!) that they refuse to accept anything about Russia as even a factor. It's moronic. Or, in some cases, something more sinister seems to be afoot.
Disgusting.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Kind of blows your assertion out of the water...
Coventina
(27,223 posts)escalate tensions but instead calls for "diplomacy and dialogue."
So.....Putin does what he wants and we're not allowed to express our displeasure?
Gimme a break.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)...to resolve problems.
So, what, you want to go to war with Russia?
With hacking, why would America even allow such a thing to happen? America first
has to do our part and secure our elections. We left the door not only unlocked but open.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)You don't think Obama was level-headed, smart, or a deep thinker?
Of course I don't want war with Russia.
I find it disturbing that you are apologizing for Putin.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Did I say Obama was not a level-headed, smart, or a deep thinker? Again what a bunch of bull...
Anytime somebody accuses me of something I did not say - the person could care less about a civil conversation.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)interfered with the election.
Was that not the correct action to take?
And yes, saying that Putin interfered because "we left the door open" is apologizing for his behavior.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Obama did the correct thing - he did what he thought was best at the time. President
Obama had to do something and the best way to kick the Russians out of the country.
It drew attention to the problem.
As for ""we left the door open" is apologizing for his behavior" - is bull crap... People
without a prior agenda and reading my post on that would understand it is more
critical to make our elections and our goddamn internet and computers safer from
hacking.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)But the editorial in question disagrees.
The editorial you have been defending.
I'm not against making our elections more secure - at all. I agree with you that it should be a top priority.
That does not excuse wrong-doing on the part of Putin...which you seemed to be doing.
If I misinterpreted, then I apologize for that.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Obama kicked Russians out of the USA.
Yes you are misinterpreting my posts. Stop it.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)So, sanctions: yes or no?
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Coventina
(27,223 posts)Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Now, maybe you understand...
Coventina
(27,223 posts)I've understood all along.
uponit7771
(90,371 posts)... man.
Open doors aren't a justification for taking illegal actions
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)"Open doors aren't a justification for taking illegal actions" - again really?
The doors to our computers and networks are open to everyone. Putin and Russian
oligarchs are sons-a-bitches (to put it extremely mildly) and would do anything
for money and power. Much like our American oligarchy.
uponit7771
(90,371 posts)... to get a clear answer from you on this
Thx
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)uponit7771
(90,371 posts)Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)uponit7771
(90,371 posts)... newspaper that's not a straight up winger source that says the same?
Thx
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I'd avoid any substantive answers also, and simply rely on the implication that all who disagree are simply ignorant of relevant information too.
It's a consistent, if ineffective tactic our bias often tells us to rely on. Human nature being what it is and all...
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)However, I did provide a substantive answer - to start reading a newspaper.
And according to your reply, you would benefit from reading a newspaper also!
lapucelle
(18,399 posts)and lashing out, you do get stories ...
about Trump's reaction as well as Putin's. For some reason, the "newspapers" seem to think that the lashing is being done by these two gentlemen, not by the U.S. Congress.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=russia+sanctions+lashing+out
TeamPooka
(24,292 posts)Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)It isn't like 'rape' if that is what you are trying to say...
Our election system has been hacked by repubs since the mid 1990s. The Dem Party
refuses to speak out loudly and make our elections 100% legitimate. Notice I said
'loudly' as yes Dems speak on voter suppression, but not that our elections are outright
stolen. And stolen from us.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)So when we "negotiate" and his response is, "Fuck off, we didn't do it," then what? Especially given that Trump would be glad to officially accept that answer.
This is world-class naivete.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)when dealing with them.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)relations with Moscow without seeking redress for their violation of our democratic process.
I read the piece. There's nothing in there about the Russian state itself other than its our job to make nice with them.
She has no credibility on Russia, just like her Putin-loving husband.
If anything, our sanctions on the Russian mafia state have been too gentle.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)I tried and tried upthread and only got insults.
bluedye33139
(1,474 posts)I had a subscription to the nation a few years ago and I made it 6 months. The tone, the attitude, the endless hand-wringing negativity wore me down and made me determined to live my life without that magazine.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)An excellent article that made the entire issue worthwhile.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)I agree that her work is stellar.
TEB
(12,948 posts)I work with two guys who immigrated from Russia after the collapse. And they detest putin and his cronies. As well as trump and his connections with putin , a lot of Russians don't like or trust their government.
FarPoint
(12,481 posts)This Russian connection/ invasion has been extremely effective... Caught me off guard.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)The Nation has such an illustrious history.
Now to get in bed with an authoritarian regime?
LenaBaby61
(6,979 posts)"Used to" be is right. I stopped paying for & reading their online content about 2 years ago.
ALL of the people I know who used to follow Katrina tell me they had to mute her starting last year, and now they've all un-followed her on twitter all together. Good on them. Her hubby is a Grade-A a putin-lover Why not just go live in ruSSia since he, you know, loves putin that much
FarPoint
(12,481 posts)I feel used too...
Duppers
(28,132 posts)After they slandered and insulted Al Gore.
My son's bff is from Russia. Good people, horrible government.
Enabling that government doesn't help the people.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)so I guess I missed that.
Gives me more confidence that I am making the right decision.
Duppers
(28,132 posts)The Nation's editor Katrina vanden Heuveland (and her husband, Stephen Cohen, retired prof of Russian studies at Princeton and NYU) are both Putin apologists.
One of many instances...
Scarborough Interview With Nation Editor Derails: Youre Actually Defending Putin!
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/scarborough-interview-with-the-nation-editor-completely-derails-youre-actually-defending-putin/
Coventina
(27,223 posts)BainsBane
(53,127 posts)Mine lapsed a few years ago. Van de Heuvel has let that magazine be marred by her marriage to a Putinista. It's irresponsible. It was once the longest running leftist periodical in the US. She has squandered its standing and reputation.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)so I don't know much about it. No one well, I don't think said pro Russian,but then again who knows if that was it, basically just people saying they are through with the Nation.
Since I don't know much about it that's where the conversation ends....
yardwork
(61,772 posts)That kind of money buys a lot of friends.
We're seeing a lot of pro-Putin propaganda including false equivalencies, straw men fallacies, and straight up falsehoods in an effort to gin up sympathy and support for Russia.
Gabi Hayes
(28,795 posts)his sanctioned garchs' take is
Is that possible?
Heard/read he's worth upwards of $200 bill
No wonder he wants to move it out of the festering puss hole he created
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en-us&ei=ue-JWYTnFJqjjwSl-JCQDg&q=bill+browder+putin+net+worth&oq=browder+putin+net&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.0.0i22i30k1.2571.4733.0.6497.5.5.0.0.0.0.120.436.0j4.4.0....0...1.1.64.mobile-gws-serp..1.4.435.hW-Ub2WElEo
DFW
(54,502 posts)She is a personal friend of mine, and she will be sending a response today, which I will post here.
I beg your patience.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Coventina
(27,223 posts)I am still conflicted on this issue.
DFW
(54,502 posts)I just posted her response.
DFW
(54,502 posts)She asked that I include the editorial that follows, so I do this not only with permission, but by request. Letters to her as editor of the Nation are read, and will be taken seriously. Katrina is a friend I hold in high regard, but her IQ is sufficiently high to leave mine trailing in the dust, so I feel no need to rise to her defense. She and I disagree on some things, agree on others, and it has not once been cause for any kind of personal rift.
Katrina is not a member of DU (yet, anyway!), so she has sent her response to the OP and other posts to me, and I am reposting here.
To DU form Katrina vanden Heuvel:
Friends in the Democratic Underground, I have long valued you as the vox populi of the democratic Left. In that spirit, let me be clear about The Nation and its stance on Russia. For my own take, see my recently published/ posted editorial. What is vital that you understand that at its best, The Nation, and now thenation.com, is a forum for a range of views on the progressive, democratic left. That is the case on a welter of issues, not just Russia But on RussiaGate, our pages and pixels have reflected that range, see Robert Dreyfuss on Trump and Russia or Joan Walsh on the ongoing and needed Congressional investigations or Katha Pollitt on Neo-McCarthyism.
I have my own views on US-Russian relationsspent more than three decades reporting from Moscow, working with feminists, independent media, and witnessing the deleterious impact of Cold War on progressive values. I understand Putin is an authoritarian leaderbut as I write below, we still confront an existential nuclear threat. Can we walk and chew gum at the same time? I saw references to Stephen Cohen ( my predecessor as Editor and Publisher, Victor Navasky, brought Steve into The Nation as a columnist and contributor more than 4 decades ago)Yes, he is my husband and I value his contributions as a historian, scholar, observer of US-Russian relations, but why in these modern times does it seem that too often a wife get treated as an adjunct to her spouses views?
What is essential in these times is that we not sleepwalk into a new and more dangerous Cold War, and that we as the collective-yet-diverse voice of the democratic Left ensure there is robust debate, airing of a full range of views; no stigmatizing, suppressing of views we dont agree with. Shouldnt we show our resilience as strong democrats in order to strengthen our already beleaguered democracy?
[Here is the text of the editorial:]
> Realism on Russia
> We must investigate claims of Russian interference in the election, while also de-escalating a dangerous crisis.
>
> The revelation that Donald Trump Jr. met with a Russian lawyer promising derogatory information on Hillary Clinton reaffirms the need for a full accounting of how our democracy may have been subverted in the 2016 election. Special counsel Robert Muellers investigation into the claims of Russian interference in the election, of collusion with the Trump campaign, and the possibility of criminal malfeasance by President Trump or his associates is essential, and it must be allowed to reach its own conclusions without interference from the White House. Beyond protecting this existing investigation, Democrats should seek an independent commission to lay out steps for protecting the integrity of future elections.
>
> None of this should be controversial. At the same time, there is another set of facts that needs to be reckoned with in this precarious momentfacts concerning the abject failure of US policies toward Russia and the dangerous path down which our two countries are currently headed. These facts also concern real and present threats and cannot be ignored. Indeed, the crisis we are now facing makes clear that its time to fundamentally rethink how we approach our relationship with Russia.
>
> As US-Russian relations have deteriorated, the risk of a nuclear catastropheincluding the danger posed by a nuclear-armed North Koreahas risen to its highest level since the end of the Cold War. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists now rates the danger higher than when the Soviet Union tested its first nuclear device, in 1949. The new Cold War is punctuated by perilous military face-offs in three arenas: in Syria, in the skies over the Baltic Sea; on Russias western border, with 300,000 NATO troops on high alert and both Russia and NATO ramping up deployments and exercises; and in Ukraine. Between them, the United States and Russia possess nearly 14,000 nuclear weaponsmore than 90 percent of the worlds nuclear arsenaland keep almost 2,000 of them on hair-trigger alert. So the extreme danger of nuclear war can only be reduced through cooperation between our two countries.
>
> At the same time, the era of cyberwarfare has arrived without any of the agreed-upon rules that govern traditional war or, for that matter, nuclear deterrence. There is now a rising threat of hackers breaching not only e-mails and elections but also power grids, strategic warning systems, and command-and-control centers. For years, there has been discussion of the need to establish clear rules of the road for cyberwarfare. Now, reports of escalating interference make it imperative that cyberweapons, like conventional, chemical, and nuclear arms, ought to be controlled by means of a binding, verifiable treaty. Again, however, this cannot happen without a more constructive US-Russia relationship.
> RELATED ARTICLE
> The Nation
> NOW IS THE TIME FOR TRUMP AND PUTIN TO NEGOTIATE, NOT ESCALATE TENSIONS
> Katrina vanden Heuvel
>
> Given these significant threats, the escalation of tensions with Russia serves neither the national interest nor our national security. Expanding sanctions will only drive a wedge between the United States and the European Union, spur Russia to take retaliatory measures, and make it more difficult to negotiate. This moment calls for diplomacy and dialogue, not moral posturing and triumphalism.
>
> Needless to say, rebuilding a working détente with Russia wont be easy. It will take skill and persistence. Russian President Vladimir Putin heads an authoritarian government that tramples on basic rights. Russias annexation of Crimea in 2014 was a violation of international law, and Putin has responded to US and NATO deployments on Russias borders by reinforcing his countrys own forces, including more nuclear-capable missiles, thereby increasing the risk of accident, miscalculation, and escalation. Meanwhile, President Trump has demonstrated that he has neither the temperament nor the advisers to sustain a coherent policy initiative. It is hard to see how we get from here to there, but we come to negotiations with the governments we have, not the ones we wish we had. There is simply no other choice.
>
> For Democrats whose understandable desire to resist Trump has helped fuel the anti-Russia fixation, there is also another reality to consider. Focusing on Trumps ties to Russia alone will not win the crucial 2018 midterm elections, nor will it win meaningful victories on issues like health care, climate change, and inequality that affect all of our lives. Moreover, cold wars are lousy for progressivism: They strengthen war parties, fatten defense budgets, and deplete funds that could be put to better use rebuilding infrastructure and expanding social programs. They empower the worst forces in politics and close off space for dissent. This is as true in the United States as it is in Russia. In its 152 years, The Nation has witnessed how war fever is used to trample rights here at home. And, having worked with Russian dissidents, journalists, and feminist NGOs for three decades, I have seen personally how a cold war can be used to suppress independent voices in that country.
>
> The bottom line is that opposition to Trump cannot become the same as opposition to common sense. Common sense dictates that we protect our own democracy by strengthening our election systems to counter outside interference. It dictates an independent investigation into claims of Russian meddling in the presidential campaign. But it also tells us that we cannot address many of our most urgent challengesfrom Syria, to climate change, to nuclear proliferation and cyberwarwithout the United States and Russia finding ways to work together when it serves our mutual interests. We do not have to embrace the Russian government to work on vital interests with it. And we cannot afford a revival of Cold War passions that would discredit those seeking to de-escalate tensions. Efforts to curtail debate could be a disservice to our countrys security.
>
> As editor of The Nation, a magazine with a long history of adopting alternative views and unpopular stances, especially on matters of war and peace, I believe its important to challenge the conventional wisdom; to foster, not police, debate; and to oppose the forces that vilify those advocating and pursuing better relations. Also, while it may not be popular to insist that both the United States and Russia have serious interests in maintaining a working relationship, it also isnt radical. It is simply sober realism.
Coventina
(27,223 posts)from what I know must be an incredibly packed schedule to make a personal response.
Secondly, I do want to go on record as pointing out that I am NOT one of the posters who accuse her of simply carrying water for her husband. I have never thought nor said/written that. That they would have similar opinions is not surprising, like-minded people tend to pair up. My husband and I share many opinions as well. Not all, though, and I'm sure the same is true for vanden Heuvel and Cohen.
I very much appreciate that she says that she sees the Nation as presenting a varied range of opinions on the situation with Russia and other issues. It could be that "confirmation bias" has had me noticing the articles I disagree with more, and I promise to give more careful attention to this in future issues.
I never intended to cancel my subscription, merely to (possibly) let it lapse. Ms. vanden Huevel's gracious response goes a long way toward restoring faith and goodwill in the work that the Nation does.
Thanks DFW for doing this!!
DFW
(54,502 posts)We NEVER have enough time together when we meet up, and we always have to cut our time short, always with regrets. She rarely, if ever, speaks Russian with me, although I'm sure hers is far better than mine. She probably just doesn't want to embarrass me. After, she is the one who gets invited to Gorbachev's birthday parties, not me.
But Katrina DOES have a deeply developed sense of fairness and justice, and is never too proud to set the record straight if she sees a misconception out there involving her or the publication. She didn't feel imposed upon to respond to the thread (she was addressing all who posted, not just your OP, and some were far harsher on her than you ever intended to be). Maybe I was imposing upon her, taking advantage of our friendship, but I don't think so. That's just not her. If she hadn't wanted to respond, she would have been up front about not wanting to or not having the time. That fact that she did meant she felt it was important enough to do so. It is up to each who posted on the thread to attach as much or as little weight to her words as they see fit.
From the 150th anniversary soirée on the Nation's founding (Elizabeth Warren left before I could get my camera out--RATS!)--Katrina knows some fine people (and then there's me).....
[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
You're good people!
I've always admired you from afar, DFW.
DFW
(54,502 posts)They just put up with me!
Coventina
(27,223 posts)You're too much!!
No wonder your wife and daughters love you so much!!
It makes my heart smile whenever you post pictures of your beautiful life.
I'm serious. It's like nourishing rain to my soul.
There's just not enough gladness in this world, but you help!
DFW
(54,502 posts)Is the equivalent of making barren fields suddenly turn green.
Adenoid_Hynkel
(14,093 posts)This is the author of The Nation's "bombshell" report this week, claiming the DNC hack was "an inside job" and not done by Russia:
Also, could you ask her when we can expect a moon landing hoaxer piece?
DFW
(54,502 posts)If you want to confront her with Fox-style questions, I think I'll leave you to send those directly. A hint, though--write to her in a civil tone, and she might just write back.
Adenoid_Hynkel
(14,093 posts)The guy is pushing a debunked conspiracy theory that claims Hillary Clinton killed a DNC staffer.
Never mind that there's zero evidence whatsoever that Rich had any access to or anything to do with the emails at the DNC.
I think her decision to give this fringe nut space needs to be questioned.
BainsBane
(53,127 posts)To allow what was once an esteemed leftist publication to become a tool of White Nationalism is unforgivable.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Maybe because she co-authored a piece siding with Putin against Barack Obama.
https://www.thenation.com/article/why-washington-risking-war-russia/
Get a load of this crap, which she wrote:
not pro-diplomacy, just on the other side
countryjake
(8,554 posts)but deaf ears abound these days.
Peace
Kathy M
(1,242 posts)My mom let her subscription run out a little bit ago ( her eyes failing ) ..... Will sign up for subscription today myself and share with her . Its a great publication , one of many I read ........
MiddleClass
(888 posts)The right wing stands up and salutes whoever does that.
I used to love Katrina in the Bush years, but that was some wrapping themselves in liberalism hotspots.
Enough to make me gag
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)during Bush years. A costly miscalculation on their part.
I don't dismiss all the voices of writers there though. Just question the editorial slant at times.
Kurovski
(34,655 posts)Can ladies hats and two-tone wing tips be far behind?
Coventina
(27,223 posts)At least, for ska fans like me.
Duppers
(28,132 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 11, 2017, 07:33 AM - Edit history (1)
McCarthyism ???
Folks, further reading on this subject is necessary. Also, friends often find it difficult to be objective.
Sorry, folks, you won't find any contrition from me.
Bye now. 🐦
Edited to add evidence of what The Nation publishes:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029442979
Btw, I refuse to drool over any proximity to well-known personalities when they published such articles as in the above link.
(Also, there was no mention or defense of The Nation's attack on Al Gore.)
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Looks like somebody missed the memo!
Hey, remember back in January-February when The Nation and a whole gaggle of like-mindeds were telling us to move on from the Russia story altogether, waste of time, never come to anything. The brilliant strategists.
Now they're been forced - by the fucking reality of it - to move to Vanden Heuvel's pathetic retrenched position: Well, certainly Russia, yes, uuhhhhh, aherm, ahem very troubling, yes, of course, yes we must investigate, but only over there. Let's move on and not focus on it too much.
haveahart
(905 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and remains so under Tr*mp.
she's Kompromised.