General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat is wrong with the idea of focusing on policies, not people?
I used to think we were more rational, and less emotional than "conservatives." I have been disabused of this notion.
Edit: I'm saying that I think cults of personality are stupid, if that isn't obvious. It's policies that matter. I don't care who enacts those policies.
democrank
(11,112 posts)That's how I vote.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)each have a particular "policy" you don't agree with, then you appear to be focusing on "people."
If you want to debate and discuss policies, leave Democratic candidate's names out of it. We are here to promote Democratic candidates.
Unless, of course, you have a name you want to put up? Which might clarify things a bit?
Cary
(11,746 posts)I was inspired by Howard Dean this weekend. I don't want to fight with fellow Democrats. I want to win elections.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)without expressing a Democratic candidate preference, we leave ourselves "suspect."
When we discuss "policy" we are on much safer ground if we leave off attacking particular candidates by name, unless we are respectfully comparing and contrasting with a candidate we choose to support and promote. Cards on the table.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)....campaigns. I want to see a vigorous debate, with more candidates.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Consider the Trump voters, who put aside "people" issues (pussy grabbing, bankruptcies, and general unsavory behavior and background) to vote for his "promises" (border walls, repealing Obamacare, immigration curtailment, tax breaks, eradicating terrorism, etc.). They truly believed in these causes, offensive as they are to us, but didn't consider whether the candidate was the kind of person who could actually achieve them. He isn't.
I always look at character in conjunction with policy. Is the candidate, first of all, intelligent, upstanding, and dedicated? Do they have a presidential temperament and relevant experience and people skills? Has this person shown an ability to effect real legislation in the past? Are they good at administration, delegation, and negotiating? And then ... are their policies remotely achievable, or just lures for getting votes? You know, I'm all for world peace and income equality and a chicken in every pot, but those are pretty vague and overly ambitious ideals, absent the concrete and specific intermediary steps toward such goals.
I'm looking for sound policy goals (meaning well studied and thought out) in conjunction with the strategic and people skills to achieve them. Without the people part, the policies are empty promises.
Indeed, I always look to a candidate's character and demeanor first, before I consider policy (given that in most cases, Democratic candidates' policies are not all that far apart). If I can't abide the character, it's a hard stretch for me.
Cary
(11,746 posts)I've noticed them to be racist and I would not use them as an example of anything.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Anthony Weiner, Alan Grayson. Once darlings of the internet for their loud policy proclamations on tv. But don't severe character (people) flaws harm otherwise good policy? People matter.
If you reject a policy that's sound because an idiot proposed it or supported it, you're engaging in a nice ad hominem fallacy.
Which goes something like "we can ignore the argument and focus on the person, because a bad person cannot possibly have sound facts or sound reasoning." That's totally false.
Now, if the person's a known liar it'll cast doubt on everything he says and the decision may be that it's simply not worth the time and effort (since both are limited) to check out his facts and claims. That just means you ignore the person entirely. But if somebody else supports that policy or argument, you don't go back and say, "Well, Mr. Liar supported it, so it must be false."
Take somebody like Feynman, a great physicist. However, he was an adulterer and had thing for young women and fast cars. This was the late '50s and early '60s, when "playboy lifestyle" meant "degenerate, or nearly so." However his physics was top notch. You wouldn't want your son to emulate his behavior, but you'd want him to learn as much physics and just how to think from him as possible. (And, no, one doesn't lead to the other.)
Similarly, a politician deep into kiddie porn might have a great idea for economic policy. Some of the brightest people I've known have been cruel, petty, and vindictive, as well as narcissistic; or they've been absurdly foolish in other ways. "Here's this great theory of human cognition, but, you know, I sort of left the country for 6 months and forgot to inform any of the power companies or arrange for my mortgage to be paid ... And the dog I left tied up in the back yard ...." Einstein became fixated on repeating the kind of thing he'd done--taking two separate ideas and uniting them into one theory, and in so doing missed out on even possibly being a player in the up and coming kinds of physics in the 1920s. Newton became fixated on quasi-alchemy and predicting Christ's return (not to mention being in charge of the mint and most likely framing somebody suspected of counterfeiting). Einstein and Newton were both brilliant and both fools. Their foolishness doesn't reduce the brilliance of their other ideas.
Sloppy thinkers confuse ideas with their adherents or proposers. Ideally there'd be a perfect match between morality and intellect, but I'm just not seeing it. It's like Stalin--cruel bastard but he loved small children: He always stopped to pick up little kids or talk to them, and always had candy in his pocket as a treat.
Various people have been credited with a saying something like, "Small minds talk about people, mediocre minds about events and things, and great minds about ideas." ("Mediocre" has a bad rap, it just means "average".)
People presenting ideas and proposals only matter because of what most people are like. This is a flaw, not a feature, IMO. While it has to be taken into account, it certainly should be resisted.
Cary
(11,746 posts)One is whether someone is qualified for the job, and that goes to whether or not they will be able to do their job and enact policies.
The second issue is the policies.
Did Weiner or Grayson disqualify themselves? I'm not so sure they did.
Kaleva
(36,395 posts)Trump, even if he wasn't in position to enact policies, would still be a despicable person.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,454 posts)And we can't just elect a good President and call it a day either. Having a good President is essential but without congressional and judicial support, a good President can quickly find his agenda derailed. If we learned nothing from the past 8 years, it's that.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)I agree with you, we should be focusing on the policies of our politicians. I just wonder who it is is you think isn't doing this.
The difference between you and me is that you have an agenda that includes a "revolution." My agenda is to elect Democrats.
You want to make this more complicated than it is. I want to elect Democrats.
I also posted that "these people are awesome" in response to Joy Reid's show on Saturday, which I found disturbing. Kamala Harris, Deval Patrick, and Cory Booker have certain things in common, other than the fact that they're trash talked by the radical left. I find the trash talking to be most disturbing.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)serious change and helping to elevate candidates with very progressive rhetoric so that their message starts to catch on and become more mainstream in its visibility that this will generally force (or allow) the establishment to tac left and champion those issues, rather than doing the easy thing that doesn't ruffle any lobbyists feathers and ignoring them. What it does is it changes the way the wind is blowing, and what the Democratic party needs to do is to see that when it happens and catch that gust.
I thought, according to this thread, that your agenda was to get underneath the labels and the cults of personality to the policies. I'm not trying to call you out on something. I doubt I'm doing your intention justice at all, but that's due to a lack of understanding on my part. I guess the question is, who is riding the tide of cult-of-personality rather than being about policies and platforms, as you see it, here on the left?
George II
(67,782 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)But you're still making it more complicated than necessary.
At the moment our nation is in distress because it's being destroyed by Republicans. Those of us who oppose that need to stop bickering and fight for our policies, regardless who the candidate may be. No candidate will be perfect.
I am saying exactly the same thing that Howard Dean said this weekend.
It's simple: we must elect Democrats. We have to stop with the circular firing squads. These issues are too important.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)First-most, early concerns about the politicians we put forward is exactly what we should have. They're all like "shut up and wait and see." I say fuck that. Lets let these candidates know what we're looking for and what we've seen that we're uncomfortable about. They can decide that this isn't the audience they need to cater to, or they can simply ignore it and then show up in ways that will allay our fears anyway. But it may just be damn good feedback for them to hear now about what the "Bernie" camp, or whatever the show or article was calling it, is looking for, and that we haven't gone into a slumber and stopped paying attention.
The show was all about shutting up criticism. I thought we wanted to talk about policies?
Cary
(11,746 posts)or whatever the show or article was calling it?
JCanete
(5,272 posts)here? The show, which you seemed to care about, seemed to give a rats ass.
Cary
(11,746 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)Buh bye.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)every time he/she loses an argument.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)Don't get all red, man.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)my opinion. It's like saying "well you're a poopy face. I'm taking my toys and going home." I totally get being done with a discussion, don't get me wrong. But maybe assuming that the people you're having a conversation with are arguing in good faith would go far. I assume you are.
Cary
(11,746 posts)HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)that being critical of potential 2020 candidates and vetting them may actually help improve our chances of winning?
Cary
(11,746 posts)Or how about those Russian trolls? I guess Hillary Clinton wouldn't won the popular vote if that stuff wasn't going on.
Yes, let's help the Republicans lie about us and smear us. Good thinking.
HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)maybe we would have had a better candidate and could have won in 2016. Also, I didn't know of any Bernie supporters "barfing" Clinton Cash. I followed almost all of the "radical" liberals as you call them (interesting that you're not liberal yourself) on twitter and never saw anyone "barfing" anything by Bannon.
Yes. we need to be critical of any potential candidates. And by that I mean any legitimate criticisms, not any BS stuff spewed by Bannon or whoever. We shouldn't just anoint someone as the heir apparent and tell everyone to shut up and fall in line. That is how you fucking lose elections. Is Kamala Harris the best candidate for 2020? Maybe, maybe not. Lets at least discuss it first, ok? Are we allowed to do that?
Cary
(11,746 posts)Response to Cary (Reply #38)
Post removed
Beartracks
(12,835 posts)Thanks for that.
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George II
(67,782 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)We cannot afford to not be practical.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Orrex
(63,263 posts)At least, that's how it's been for the past few decades.
If you can identify a currently relevant political figure whose personality is irrelevant, I would be most interested to hear about them.
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)Because some of us are for some policies and some of us are against. When you are against you use all at your disposal.