Saw "Waiting for Superman" the other day in Sociology class.

[Brigid]

I just feel a sense of frustration and sadness. I was lucky -- I went through the public school system back in the '60's and '70's, before it completely fell apart. And I never had kids, so I never had to worry about getting *them* educated. A freaking lottery to determine if your kid gets to go to a decent school? Are you kidding me!? What other country would even consider such a thing?

[bluestateguy]

1. which even assumes that the charter school in question is a good one

Yes, some charter schools are good, or even excellent (cream skimming makes that possible), but there are also others that suck just as bad, or even worse than regular public schools.

[Sterling]

13. I was shocked to learn that the man who ran that school

I was shocked to learn that the man who ran that school was paid around $400k a year! My take on the issue is pretty simple. Most of it really does come down to funding which I found the documentary in question was dishonest about in a variety of ways. There are the Federal dollars and then the local property tax base that schools depend on. In wealthy area's the per student spending far exceeds that of low income area's and in my experience that is the primary influence in the kind of education available.

Per student spending, before you by into the hype look into that.

[Scuba]

2. Not sure where you live but our public schools here are NOT falling apart...

... despite the best efforts of Governor Walker.

[JonLP24]

3. I'd independently verify as much as I can

about that film. I haven't seen it but from what I know it seems to be an advertisement for charter schools.

Often unions are blamed but the best performing public schools are in state w/ the strongest union laws, the poorest performing public schools are in states w/ weak union laws. Underfunded & segregated school districts.

I also think the film focuses on a few highly performing charter schools when on average they're no better than public schools.

[Brigid]

5. I really didn't see the film as an ad for charter schools.

I saw it as an argument that every school can be made better, and every kid deserves that. However, it was very hard on teachers' unions (too hard, IMO), and didn't really discuss the issues of underfunding or teacher training, which of course also play an important role in school quality.

[JonLP24]

12. Regardless

I'd fact check the film. I understand the argument we can do better but what examples did the film show of schools doing better? If I recall, one is the Harlem charter that is run by that guy from the credit card commercials.

I'm not prepared myself for a discussion on the public school system because my memory is hazy on the specifics & short on time. I also haven't seen the film. Anyways the facts I listed above was from I believe Bush I Secretary of Education (maybe Reagan). I know why am I listening to Bush I (or Reagan) Secretary of Education? It is interesting she makes these arguments because the charter schools, unions, school choice, etc are from the Republican platform.

Down-thread there are arguments about unions and how it is difficult to get rid of bad teachers. There is a counter-argument that I can't remember the specifics but you can't get rid of tenure teachers without due-process. It doesn't mean you can't get rid of bad teachers and wouldn't the states w/ the weak union laws & Republican school districts(easier to get rid of "bad" teachers) have the best performing public schools rather than states in the Northeast that have strong unions and liberal school districts?

[blkmusclmachine]

4. Look at a full-size poster for that movie.

They put a Cross in the clouds, made out of light. It's shining down on that little girl. Right wing Christianist propaganda.

[Brigid]

6. Huh?

There was not one word about religion or private religious schools in the film.

[Journeyman]

7. ? . . .

[mainer]

8. Huh? twice

Nothing about religion or religious schools in that movie.

It was about how education could be made better.

[aikoaiko]

10. Show me.

[IMG][/IMG]

[mainer]

9. I saw it too. While I support the teacher's unions....

I do think the film brings up some relevant points. Such as ... why DO we continue to allow really BAD teachers to teach our kids? Shouldn't there be some accountability?

I can think of several high school teachers I had WAY BACK, decades ago, who should have been shown the door.

[Brigid]

11. About teachers' unions . . .

Yes, they're needed. They're needed to enable teachers to bargain with school districts about issues like pay, benefits, and class size. Tenure should be reserved only for quality teachers of long service. Getting rid of bad teachers should not be an exercise in frustration.

[Sterling]

14. I sure had a mixed bag of teachers

My school which now seems to be an excuse for a giant athletic program had a pretty extreme spectrum of quality of teachers. There were some that I am very grateful for and influenced my thinking to this day. My creative writing teacher in particular helped me get several scholarship offers from in state schools by getting my work published. Up to that point I had not even thought of collage because I knew that at the time it would have been a hardship on my parents to pay for it.

Then there were the teachers who just did not seem to have their heads in the game or just had a hard time relating the information in a way that was clear. Bottom line for me is that in general we don't value teachers enough in our culture. These are the people who have a huge influence on what tomorrows citizens and leaders will be like. If we expect to attract high quality professionals in that field we need to be realistic about the fact that cost money.

As I posted earlier the guy in charge of the school in the movie makes $400k per year. You are going to attract top people if you can fork over that kind of cash, period. The trend I have seen lately to vilify teachers, suggest they are over paid is disgraceful IMHO.

[mainer]

15. Great article in Smithsonian, I think, about schools in Finland

where teachers are respected, well paid, and considered in the same social standing as doctors. Needless to say, their teachers are superb and the students excel, even those who are minority immigrants. BUT teachers are also held to the highest of standards.

When you start paying more, you attract the best.

BUT you also have to be able to winnow out the worst.

on edit: ah hah, found the link:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

[Brigid]

16. Fascinating article.

Thanks for finding it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. You wrote:

A freaking lottery to determine if your kid gets to go to a decent school? Are you kidding me!? What other country would even consider such a thing?

And I'd turn around and ask, "What other country would even consider letting its schools 'completely fall apart'?"