Wonderful overlooked fact about Obamacare--it will curtail mandatory alternative medicine coverage!

[Godhumor]

Exciting days, indeed (And a savings to us tax-payers, to boot!)!

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/obamacare-and-cam/#more-21739
By Jann Bellamy

Practitioners of so-called “complementary and alternative medicine” currently enjoy a certain measure of government largesse in the form of state laws mandating coverage of their services by private health insurance plans. The federal Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (often referred to as the Affordable Care Act, or “ACA,” and sometimes as “Obamacare”) has the potential of putting a significant dent in this forced coverage of pseudoscientific health care.

...

In sum, the ACA requires that individual and small group health insurance policies cover “essential health benefits,” which the Department of Health and Human Services is working to define. HHS has turned to the Institute of Medicine for advice, which, if taken, will require that EHBs be both cost effective and evidence based as determined through a transparent process. This should eventually severely curtail or eliminate legally required coverage of “CAM” practices. If state legislatures mandate non-ESB coverage, such as “CAM” practices, those states will be required to absorb the additional cost in subsidies for people who can’t afford premiums.

In the interim, states can choose benchmark plans on which all individual and small group policies must be based. Mindful that keeping costs down is essential to the success of the health insurance purchasing exchanges required by the ACA, states are more likely to choose benchmarks which offer no-frills benefits. If California’s experience is any indication, efforts will be made to curtail, if not eliminate, CAM from essential benefits packages during this interim period.

As cost considerations and evidence-based decisions take hold in the coming years (if all goes as planned and the ACA remains law), we should see CAM providers eliminated or, at the least, more severely curtailed in health insurance coverage. Perhaps I am being overly optimistic, but the mechanisms are certainly in place for this to happen. And since you and I pay for CAM coverage through increased premiums, it will be an economic benefit to us all.

The whole article is worth the read, but, if one of the unsung benefits is to begin de-profitizing CAM, I am all for it.

[MadHound]

1. That's a shame,

While there are many alternative medicine practices that are simply quackery, there are also many that do provide medical benefits. However, being a Western-centric nation, anything that doesn't originate in the Western mainstream medicine tradition is considered wrong, no matter how beneficial. Truly a shame.

[Godhumor]

2. I would love examples of medically necessary alternative medicine

If this can wipe out government subsidies for things like chiropractic and acupuncture nonsense, it is truly a blessing for all of us tax payers on the state and federal level.

[LiberalLoner]

6. Amen! Healing crystals do NOTHING for me

But antibiotics and modern medicine have saved my life several times.

[TheWraith]

79. They do nothing for anybody, except the people who sell them.

"Alternative medicine" is a multi-billion-dollar industry which is not curtailed in any way by the requirement that their products actually work. And yet despite that, some people still defend them and treat them as medicine even when they're completely unsupported by scientific fact of any kind, simply on the premise that you have to BELIEVE in them.

[Voice for Peace]

277. but the same could be said of most western medicine

and the pharmaceutical industry.

I don't know how many doctors I've seen who were unable to
help but who charged a lot of money anyway. I wouldn't pay
a plumber if he came to my house and looked at the toilet
and said, I don't know what the problem is, that'll be
$150.

[MineralMan]

140. Well, I have proof that some crystals, when cut and polished properly,

make some people feel really good when they receive them. They can act as powerful aphrodisiacs. Now, that's a benefit you can actually feel, sometimes.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

8. Let me give you a little story on acupuncture "nonsense".

My mother is 79 years old and had been suffering from severe sciatica for well over a year. She did physical therapy and pain killers, heck, anything suggested by her various back doctors. She was in chronic pain, was taking way too many pain meds (ended up with a bleeding esophagus), and becoming so debilitated she was unable to stand for more than a few minutes at a time. She was at the point she was considering a very risky surgery to have bones fused in her back in an attempt to stop the pain. The lumbar specialist who was considering the procedure finally said he was not comfortable doing it because it was just too risky for her circumstances and it might not even work on the pain. Completely desperate, she asked him what else she could do. His sole suggestion: acupuncture.

Even though she thought the doctor and his suggestion were full of shit, I brought her in to our local acupuncture college where she received her first needle treatment and herbs at their low cost clinic.

After that one treatment -- one treatment -- she was pain free for 3 straight days for the first time in over a year. She did treatment once a week for three months, and has remained pain free for six months. She is walking daily, can do her chores, engage in her favorite activities -- everything she was unable to do before treatments.

She is planning of getting ongoing treatments every few months to keep her back as healthy as possible.

So, I am thrilled there was treatment available to help her when western medicine had reached its limits, and I am sorry that more Americans will not have the same healing opportunity as my Mom.

[Godhumor]

29. And how do you think acupuncture worked?

How did sticking needles into her resolve her pain? Mystical lifting of blocked chi? Rerouting lifeforce? Placebo?

I'm glad she is doing better, really, but acupuncture fails the scietific process 100% of the time.

[BlueToTheBone]

66. Since you can't spell it,

how can you be so sure it fails scientifically?

Absolute certainty is a good way to miss much of life on planet Earth.

[Godhumor]

72. Oh, I'm sorry I should have typed Qi

And the fact that it is the hold up indicated mysticism as how it works.

It is not medically necessary or even provable.

[BlueToTheBone]

194. No, the word you can't seem to spell

is SCIENTIFIC.

[uppityperson]

201. Also he can't spell RELAXING

[Sterling]

139. I don't know enough about...

the subject to debate the issue. I will say that in the states we overlook some fundamental truths of healthy living/well being. One I know for sure is that food is medicine. What we chose to eat alone has a lot to do with how we feel and how our immune system reacts to illness.

There are even some foods I eat when I feel certain sickness coming on that help a lot.

[emsimon33]

264. Source for your argument: " acupuncture fails the scietific process 100% of the time."

[pscot]

42. I read one study that said

no two acupuncturists put the needles in the same place. IOW they're making it up as they go along.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

68. Uh, not exactly.

In acupuncture, there are a variety of needle treatments to approach a single health issue, though there are hard-fast standard points that every doctor uses.

[pansypoo53219]

63. chiropractic fixed my sciatica problem, when the ER didn't even get a fucking xray.

she also fixed my scoliosis. now i need it for other reasons, but it can work.
and i hear the military is using acupuncture.

[NNN0LHI]

120. Was it the same kind of scoliosis my friend has?

When he lifts his shirt up his spine looks in the shape of the letter "S". His spine is very deformed. Hurts me just to look at his back. Is that the kind of scoliosis that chiropractic fixed? Or are there milder forms than I am used to seeing?

Not being nosy. Just wondering if something like what my friend has can be repaired at all?

Don

[uppityperson]

127. It depends on cause and how bad it is. My partner had a big curve and chiro & massage helped a lot.

However, like any type of health care provider, there are quacks. MD, ND, DC, MT, etc. If they say they can fix everything, or have a single treatment for all, find another one.

There are mild to severe levels of scoliosis. Issues can range from back pain to impacting their respiratory function.

My partner had a severe bend and it was made much better by a good chiropractor and a good massage therapist. Still has back issues, back pain, but is much better.

[NNN0LHI]

131. Thank you for the information

I think even surgeons have told this fellow it is so bad they can't help him.

As for the cause I think he was born with it.



Don

[uppityperson]

147. It can help with muscle spasms, help them be less. Good luck to him

[MattBaggins]

223. If your friend is so bad that surgery can not help

then please do not have him go to a Chiroquack. They could very well kill him.

[MattBaggins]

221. What did you expect an xray to show?

Hearing the military is using something is far from a good argument.

[emsimon33]

263. I had a similar experience with acupuncture

It is amazing how much like sheep so many Americans are when it comes to allopathic medicine. They discount a medical tradition that is thousands of years old and has no negative effects which can NOT be said for traditional Western allopathic medicine.

[Voice for Peace]

278. very true, the sheep factor

I began losing faith in western medicine when the
pediatrician for my first baby prescribed antibiotics for
her for a little bit of a cold.

But I know so many who rush to the doctor whenever
anything is a concern, fill whatever prescriptions are written,
take them faithfully, and run up the cost of insurance for
everybody.

[MadHound]

9. Yet there are people who find real relief in both of those,

Myself included.

An example, thirty plus years ago I had trashed my knees growing up, playing sports, being active, having the occasional accident on them. It had gotten to the point where if I were rising from a sitting position, I would have to balance on the one leg that wasn't hurting as much while I slowly extended the knee on the other leg, generally over a period of five minutes. My knees were in bad, bad shape.

Now then, I consulted the doctor, an expert in the field, and I had the option of either living with the pain, which would increase, or he could filet my knees open(this was in the days before arthroscopic surgery) and repair the damage which would have cost me both lots of time and lots of money.

Luckily I knew somebody who patiently talked me into seeing an acupuncturist. Over a period of six weeks, with acupuncture treatments, my knees healed to the point where they were relatively pain free and fully functional, and are to this very day. Yes, I still get knee pains at certain turns of the weather, but I don't experience the everyday excruciating pain that I did when I was twenty.

This isn't some placebo effect, this is real healing. I've had my knees checked out since then to see if the damage was repaired, and yes, it was.

You may scoff at this, but frankly Asian medicine was effectively using acupuncture to heal patients back when Western medicine was still prescribing bloodletting as a means of treatment(a treatment during which many patients died). Hell, today Western medicine still prescribes drugs for various illnesses whose side effects are death. Really, seriously, death? So much for that Hippocratic oath there.

There have been clinical studies that have found acupuncture to be a legit form of healing, and it is practiced around the world. The biggest reason that Western medical "experts" still reject it is because unlike surgeries, drugs and doctor visits for years on end, acupuncture isn't a big medical money maker. It does the job and you move on.

But hey, keep putting your faith completely in Western medicine, the same medical training that has brought us anti-biotic resistant drugs, massive medical malpractice, drugs like thalidomide and so much more that has negatively impacted the health of people. Keep overpaying for practices that kill you.

Do I think that acupuncture and other alternative medicines are the be all and end all of healing, no. But neither do I believe that Western medicine is the be all and end all. I think a more balanced approach is needed, and doctors need to stop relying on corporations that sell and tell them what to prescribe, sell and tell them what procedure is appropriate. We need to stop being so Western-centric, and recognize that there are other medical traditions that are just as effective.

[Godhumor]

22. Placebo effect is the placebo effect

Acupuncture is a placebo, it is not medically necessary and should not be covered as such.

Chiropractic practice, at its root, claim that spinal adjustments can cure all sorts of things, which is why it should not be covered--at its best it is therapeutic massage. At its worst, it sells false hope and insanity.

Requiring scietific proof of effectiveness eliminates pretty much all CAM treatments. If it can't hold up to the scientific method, then there is no legitimate way to discuss it as a"medically necessary" treatment.

[underseasurveyor]

30. It's plainly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

It may be your opinion but that's all it is. And an uneducated one at that.

[Godhumor]

34. Good, show me my ignorance. Where is the scientific work showing acupuncture works

Let me see it.

It is not ignoarance. Belief in acupuncture working is nothing more than faith.

And Chiropractic history is filled with pseudoscience to a ridiculous degree. It is why the practitioners got so upset at the lack of coverage in California--its effectiveness could not be proven.

[underseasurveyor]

35. Show me proof of God.

Then I'll be a believer.

[ChazII]

44. What is wrong in asking for proof?

[underseasurveyor]

53. Show me proof of God then.

I mean people are deemed crazy if they claim to have seen a UFO with their own eyes but no one has ever seen God and yet millions of people believe he exists, sight unseen and without proof.

[MattBaggins]

224. Millions of people are delusional

[underseasurveyor]

100. Note to self: HARK, I hear the sound of *crickets*

[Godhumor]

102. Why respond?

You couldn't answer the question and diverted by asking something completely unrelated.

[underseasurveyor]

113. Proof has been posted #90 I was giving you a chance to catch up with the front of the class.

I'm thoughtful that way. You're welcome.

Now your turn, show me proof that God exists. Many people have claimed that God has healed them. Are they completely bonkers or what.

[uppityperson]

117. He already replied there but didn't address the proof. Did a red herring thing instead. You are so

thoughtful indeed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002936307#post101

[underseasurveyor]

124. As to be expected.

Some people thrive on drama and being know-it-alls and they must really hate learning anything new, or just learning anything. New, old.

Personally I love learning about new things and concepts and ideas.

[uppityperson]

128. Willful ignorance and prejudice combine into an ugly mess. I like reading and learning also.

I've changed my opinions on things over the years also. Ah well.

[Daemonaquila]

188. Yes.

Totally bonkers.

[Chan790]

242. Yes.

They are and I'd be equally opposed to faith-healing as a covered CAM as I am to acupuncture, chiropractic treatment, reflexology or aroma therapy.

Believe whatever you want...if you want it paid for, provide (edit: non-anecdotal, scientifically-valid) proof of efficacy.

[BlueToTheBone]

71. Are you a surgical instrument salesman?

[Godhumor]

159. Nope.

I actually haven't heard that suggestion before--usually it is that I work for Big Pharma (Which I also do not).

[MadHound]

90. Proof:

University of Maryland Medical Center, "not just the placebo effect"
http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/back_pain.htm

National Institutes of Health, which has a whole section devoted to alternative medicine
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture

Vanderbilt University,
"Other studies researched the effectiveness of acupuncture versus medical treatment for certain conditions. A study done by Loh, Nathan, Schott and Zilkha in 1983 served as an example of such studies. A comparison was made between acupuncture and medical treatment for migraines and muscle tension headaches. Forty-eight patients were randomly allocated to either acupuncture or medical treatment. Of the 48, 23 started with acupuncture and 25 started with medical treatment. After three months, the patients were asked to switch to the other treatment and continue with that treatment for another three months. In this event, 18 patients starting with medical treatment switched to acupuncture and 11 patients switched from acupuncture to medical treatment. The results of the study show that 24 out of 41 (59%) patients showed improvements after acupuncture treatments while only 9 out of 36 (25%) patients showed improvements after the medical treatments. In addition, no major side effects were observed for acupuncture.

In a similar study, acupuncture was compared with the beta-1-selective beta blocker metoprolol (Selo-Zok®; Hässle AB, Mölndal, Sweden), which is a well-known drug. The side effects of both regimens were also compared. After a 4-week run-in period, 77 patients were randomly allocated to one of two groups. Group A received acupuncture plus placebo pills, while group B received 100 mg of metoprolol per day plus placebo stimulation. Treatments for both groups lasted for 17 weeks. The results from the data show that while both groups show significant reduction in migraine attacks at posttreatment, the side effects experienced from acupuncture were considerably lower than side effects from the drug. Fourteen patients in the metoprolol group had side effects while only three patients had side effects in the acupuncture group. The side effects of the drug were mainly fatigue, dizziness, and gastrointestinal discomfort. The side effects of acupuncture consisted of two cases of nausea and one case of euphoria. The study concluded that acupuncture should be considered as an alternative to drug taking (Hesse, Mogelvang & Simonsen, 1994).
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/Acupuncture.htm

These links were all found very quickly on just the first page of the search query results. The results go on for many, many pages.

It is obvious that you either simply don't know what you're talking about, or are openly hostile to acupuncture, or both. Perhaps you need to do your own research, perhaps try it out yourself. Until then, stop pretending that you're some sort of expert on the subject, you aren't, and the actual experts disagree with you.

[underseasurveyor]

98. GH and the lot of em don't give a rats behind

and they don't really care to hear any evidence to his/their contrary opinions. They're not even open-minded to the idea.

They're either big pharma drug pushers or drug addicted prescription users.

[ohiosmith]

146. This post was alerted on: The jury voted 4/2 to let it stand.

At Thu Jul 12, 2012, 04:38 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

GH and the lot of em don't give a rats behind
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=937153

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Calling other DUers big pharma drug pushers or prescription drug addicts. Completely inappropriate. This is a discussion about alternative medicine coverage being denied. There is some back and forth between people who believe in alternative medicine and people who don't but there is absolutely no reason to start throwing accusations of people being drug addicts or drug dealers.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 12, 2012, 04:53 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This person is adding a lot to the discussion and I'm not about to shut her down. Sorry.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: What DUers are being called "drug addicts or drug dealers"? The reference appears to be to big pharma and group health insurance firms. Leave the post.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Sounds like a heated discussion, and I don't see enough to hide the post.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I vote to leave it. This is a discussion board and others will have a differing opinion. Hiding their comment won't bring them any closer to what you think but engaging them with your view just may help them to see things your way.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Godhumor]

101. And in NCCAM you will see right there they state CAM has not met

Scientific rigor. Right there in the "What is CAM" section.

The School of integration is a CAM school and the work has not been verified by outside parties, which is a necessary step to scientific proof.

[MadHound]

109. No, what they actually say is this,

"Rigorous, well-designed clinical trials for many CAM therapies are often lacking; therefore, the safety and effectiveness of many CAM therapies are uncertain. NCCAM is sponsoring research designed to fill this knowledge gap by building a scientific evidence base about CAM therapies—whether they are safe; and whether they work for the conditions for which people use them and, if so, how they work."
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam

Stop putting your words into others' mouths.

Furthermore, they go on to link to several studies proving the effectiveness of acupuncture
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=acupuncture[Majr]%20OR%20%22acupuncture%20therapy%22[Majr]%20AND%20%22therapeutic%20use%22[Subheading%3Anoexp]%20AND%20%28%22humans%22[MeSH%20Terms]%20AND%20%28Meta-Analysis[ptyp]%20OR%20Review[ptyp]%29%20OR%20systematic[sb]%20AND%20English[lang]%20AND%20%222007/07/12%22[PDAT]%20%3A%20%222012/07/12%22[PDAT]%29&cmd=DetailsSearch
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=acupuncture[Majr]%20OR%20%22acupuncture%20therapy%22[Majr]%20AND%20%22therapeutic%20use%22[Subheading%3Anoexp]%20AND%20%22humans%22[MeSH%20Terms]%20AND%20English[lang]%20AND%20Randomized%20Controlled%20Trial[ptyp]%20AND%20%222007/07/12%22[PDAT]%20%3A%20%222012/07/12%22[PDAT]&cmd=DetailsSearch

And all of this under the auspices of the NIH.

And what are you talking about with this "School of Inegration"? I did not link to it, I had three links, one to University of Maryland Medical Center, NCCAM, which is part of NIH, and Vanderbilt University.

By the by, I've given proof in my case, where is your proof? So far, all you have is hot air.

[Godhumor]

126. The Maryland School of Integrated Medicine was your one study

Second, this: "Rigorous, well-designed clinical trials for many CAM therapies are often lacking; therefore, the safety and effectiveness of many CAM therapies are uncertain." is saying that proof is severely lacking. Saying they're sponsoring research does not mean it has been proven.

Your links don't work, any chance you have a shorter one so I can go take a look?

[underseasurveyor]

167. How many studies will be an acceptable number for you?

And specifically whose studies are not acceptable and also specifically how short does it need to be?
To be acceptable to your standards of course.

[Godhumor]

172. clinical studies have shown time and time again, where the needle goes makes no difference

The sissies that are actually peer reviewed and scientific in nature says acupuncture does not do anything.

I'm on my mobile now, but down thread I linked to an article that summarizes actual controlled findings.

[underseasurveyor]

175. Is it a short article?

How many studies over what period of time does it summarize?

[MattBaggins]

228. I would suggest statistics courses

and looking up the Phase Trials for FDA approval.

At a very bare minimum a trial should have 30 patients, be done three times and then verified by at least 2 outside groups. The trials should be designed and submitted to an outside review group for suggestions before trials begin.

That is just a good start.

Acupuncture is awesome if you want a nasty Staph infection.

[MattBaggins]

226. Yes NCAM studies

Where they pick the worst possible medical treatment to compare acupuncture to and don't ensure that the post treatment interviewers are not aware of which treatment the patient had.

[pnwmom]

12. Bastyr University does research on naturopathic medicine.

You could look there if this is a serious question.

[Godhumor]

18. Serious question and naturopathy doesn't even belong in the discussion

Nothing to do with medically necessary work.

[pnwmom]

19. My pediatrician would strongly disagree with you. She sent me to a naturopath

when conventional specialists couldn't help my daughter.

[Godhumor]

25. Naturopathy is largely quackery.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

"Most of the things naturopaths do have not been scientifically substantiated; and some—such as homeopathy—clearly are worthless. In many cases, naturopaths combine sensible dietary advice (based on medically proven strategies) with senseless recommendations for products."

[TheWraith]

85. Then what you should have gone to is a new pediatrician.

Naturopathy is quackery. It's basically snake oil for the 21st century.

[MadHound]

92. Like Xanax, Zoloft and so many other drugs sold within Western medicine? n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

191. Just listening to those pharmaceutical commercials on TV

with their minute-long list of potential side effects, makes me think that the AFLAC duck should be *their* spokesduck

"Quack, quack, quack!"

[MattBaggins]

230. If Big Woo were actually held to any standards at all

they would have the same warnings

[Art_from_Ark]

233. You mean, "Big Woo" would have a warning like this?

"Warning: This product is not to be used by diabetics. May cause nausea. If a rash appears, see your doctor immediately. Extended use has caused liver problems in some patients. Not to be taken for extended lengths of time. Do not take while driving or operating heavy machinery. Do not take within two hours of ingesting alcohol. Do not use if you are using nicotine patches."

[MattBaggins]

252. Or do not use this tea if you have high blood pressure.

Or do not take this supplement if you take Statins.

A huge list

[Confusious]

210. No, not like that

As a person with a life long history of compulsive obsessive disorder and depression, Zoloft works.

Quack woo medicine does not.

[MadHound]

287. Tell that to the Zoloft users who have died from its side effects. n/t

[pnwmom]

133. I had an excellent pediatrician, thank you.

And since then my daughter has seen top medical specialists in three major cities, with no firm diagnosis after more than 10 years. Unfortunately, conventional medicine doesn't offer all the answers.

(But going off gluten, as recommended by a naturopath, reduced her cholesterol by 25 points.)

[MattBaggins]

229. That pediatrician should quit her practice.

[magical thyme]

45. "chiropractic nonsense" saved my dogs life

I was witness to it. Western medicine was failing him. A spinal injury left him with chronic back pain and ultimately diarrhea so severe that he was absorbing little to no nutrients and excreting chyme (it looked like vomit coming out the back end). He was eating as many pounds of vet recommended food (boiled chicken and rice)/day as he could hold, yet walking around with dish in mouth begging for more, and dropped from over 80 pounds to 72 within 4 days.

After calling every large animal hospital within driving distance, including Tufts University, a large local dog hospital recommended a licensed chiropractic veterinarian. She turned the situation around in a single treatment. 2 more treatments every couple weeks held it steady, and an annual treatment for a couple years made sure no problems were returning.

Had he been human, he probably would have had thousands of dollars in x-rays and scans, tens of thousands in surgeries and a back permanently damaged.

But I'm sure it was just all in his head.

And in a way I don't care. Chiropractic would have been well under any deductible anyway.

[patrice]

55. Medically necessary? vs PATIENT necessary. It may be "medically" necessary to haul an 88

year old lady out and pull all of her teeth all at the same time, even though she was in no pain, and, thus, make dentures that no insurance of any kind will pay for, necessary and traumatize the b'jeezus out of the old woman in the process.

- or -

It may have been PATIENT necessitated medicine, as in Patient CENTERED Outcomes Research Institute, to offer her some ALTERNATIVE approaches to dealing with the problem.

That's only one example. There are ALL kinds of things going on (hip replacements being a big one) in order to produce fees and to sell stuff:
http://medicinesocialjustice.blogspot.com/

[uppityperson]

59. Thank you.

Saying there is one right answer for everyone everytime is wrong. (I am in agreement with you)

[patrice]

64. Have seen several family elders off into the beyond. Even under what is supposed to be the best

of conditions, at home care by fairly knowledgeable family, or upscale care resources, that doesn't necessarily mean that they get what they need.

Money does NOT guarantee you results in elder care. What many are getting right now is what Money produced for them to receive. You can pay high dollar and everyone still ends up suffering and, some, going "before their time", because of SMALL things.

[Voice for Peace]

276. so much of alternative medicine has to do with prevention

rather than emergency or short-term cures. But I've
had emergency chiropractic treatment that was
medically necessary and beneficial long-term.

I've treated antibiotic-resistant skin infections with
"alternative medicine" successfully.

I've successfully treated gallstones, duodenal inflammation,
and other intestinal/digestive problems successfully
with "alternative medicine."

"Physician, heal thyself." I believe people have the ability to
heal themselves as well as or better than most doctors,
if willing to do the work and research. I'm not talking about
surgery, or even stuff like cancer -- but most health problems
can be solved with some effort.

But I believe most who take on this responsibility aren't big
fans of health insurance anyway, or the medical industry
in general.

[xmas74]

298. I've done well with chiropractors.

The appointment, even out of pocket, was cheaper than going to the doctor, actually helped my neck, and did so without taking a single pill. And the relief was almost immediate.

I know others, because of various accidents, who have also benefited from a chiropratic appointment. A few local doctors in our area will even recommend visiting a chiropractor instead of prescribing pain medication. They state that if the chiropractor doesn't help then the person needs to return.

Does everything work? No. There are plenty of things in alternative medicine that do not work. Chiropractic and some natural medicines do work. Do they work for everyone? No.

[MineralMan]

40. What's a shame is that the alternative medicine folks don't

allow the kind of double-blind clinical studies that demonstrate the efficacy or failure of their remedies and treatments. That's what is a shame, and I don't think we should be funding untested medical treatments with tax dollars. When the alternative medicine community joins the scientific community, then we can talk. In the meantime, no thanks.

[Richard D]

50. Check out the NLM.

Lots of studies on acupuncture have been published.

[MineralMan]

73. Yes, and the conclusions are never clear.

Long-term double-blind clinical studies are seldom done by alternative medicine advocates. Journals have cropped up for this specific area, and studies are published. When you read the study, you quickly realize that the studies are not being conducted using normal scientific standards for medical studies, but are little more than reports of anecdotal results.

I've read many of them. I've not seen one done using any sort of rigorous standard.

[underseasurveyor]

108. And the conclusions are clear on drugs like Zoloft, Prozac, Xanax, etc.?

And there are more prescription drug addicts now than ever before in history? Wow 200+ years of western medicine is doing so much good and causing no harm, eh?

Western medicine is little more than pill pushing to "manage" symptoms. Doctors aren't taught how to heal anymore only push drugs. Go Big Pharma USA USA USA

[MineralMan]

111. Uh, I'm very close to someone who has benefited

enormously from Zoloft. It works for some. Other medications work for others. Bipolar disorder is a terrible thing. Medication helps a lot. For some, Zoloft is the correct medication. For others, other drugs in that class work better. You're talking to the wrong guy with that example.

[uppityperson]

112. Um, I thought anecdotal stories were worthless. I'm very close to someone who has benefited

from chiropractic treatments and massage therapy. Severe scoliosis is a terrible thing. Chiropractic and massage helps a lot. For some, chiropractic and massage is the correct treatment.

There is not 1 right answer for everyone every time. Any treatment can be misused, over used, under used, used wrongly, claimed to work inaccurately. ANY treatment.

[MineralMan]

134. Not worthless. Just not evidence on their own.

In the case of Zoloft, there are many clinical studies done in a scientific way that indicate the benefits are real. But, Zoloft doesn't work for everyone. And I"m not talking about chiropractic, in any case. It isn't equivalent to a medication. It's a system of manipulating the body. It does have some practical benefits for some people. That's been demonstrated.

I'm thinking about the whole range of alternative medicines and woo. Chiropractic has not been shown to benefit people with bipolar disorder. It works for what it works for, and not for anything else. Unfortunately, many chiropractors are heavily into the rest of the alternative medicine nonsense, thus diluting their opinion as a whole.

[nashville_brook]

207. silly you -- anecdotal evidence is only permissible when advocating big pharma.

[uppityperson]

208. Oh silly me indeed. I forgot. Slap me with a wet noodle and call me done.

[underseasurveyor]

114. The benefits to 'some' are not to be argued.

However the broader use over the long term are showing that indeed these mind altering drugs are dangerous. Not only to the user but to the unborn.

Doctors are over prescribing to too many people that feel they need a quick feel better fix. The problem is that doctors are prescribing these things to people that don't really have bipolar or any kind of brain chemical disorder. They just feel a little sad and doctors are urged to push these drugs and others like them in the same class. THAT'S the difference and the problem.

[MineralMan]

135. Zoloft should not be prescribed except for conditions where it has

undergone clinical trials that demonstrate its efficacy. That it is is not a condemnation of the drug, itself, but of its misuse.

[Godhumor]

160. And let me just say right now, misuse of prescription drugs is a terrible thing

Drugs are approved for certain usage only and should be given for "off-the-label" use.

Immoral doctors are real, and I don't think anyone would argue against that.

Edit: See I got beat to pretty much the same point.

[underseasurveyor]

170. And misuse of prescription drugs is off the charts at an all time high (no pun intended)

in the U.S.

"How OxyContin Became One of America’s Most Abused Drugs
Posted by: Addiction Treatment Posted date: February 15, 2011 In: Drug Addiction
In 1996 Purdue Pharma introduced a new painkiller called OxyContin. Within just four years, sales of the drug went from $48 million to $1.16 billion. By 2004 OxyContin was a leading drug of abuse in the United States. How did this happen so fast?


It was a perfect storm – a combination of astute marketing by Purdue Pharma and changes to healthcare protocol– that produced this phenomenon. Most experts in substance abuse believe the storm is not over yet."

http://www.addictiontreatmentmagazine.com/addiction/drug-addiction/oxycontin-addiction-marketing/

And we're suppose to trust that big pharma and their marketing companies and doctors are not going to over-prescribe for profit? And that's just one drug out of thousands that are over prescribed and misused.

Since you're that trusting I have some PRIME ocean front land to sell. You'll love it, REAL cheap.

[MagickMuffin]

180. Zoloft side effects: Go Big Pharma

All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Zoloft:

Anxiety; constipation; decreased sexual desire or ability; diarrhea; dizziness; drowsiness; dry mouth; increased sweating; loss of appetite; nausea; nervousness; stomach upset; tiredness; trouble sleeping; vomiting; weight loss.

Seek medical attention right away if any of these SEVERE side effects occur when using Zoloft:
Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); bizarre behavior; black or bloody stools; chest pain; confusion; decreased bladder control; decreased concentration; decreased coordination; exaggerated reflexes; fainting; fast or irregular heartbeat; fever; hallucinations; memory loss; new or worsening agitation, panic attacks, aggressiveness, impulsiveness, irritability, hostility, exaggerated feeling of well-being, restlessness, or inability to sit still; persistent or severe ringing in the ears; persistent, painful erection; red, swollen, blistered, or peeling skin; seizures; severe or persistent anxiety or trouble sleeping; severe or persistent headache; stomach pain; suicidal thoughts or attempts; tremor; unusual bruising or bleeding; unusual or severe mental or mood changes; unusual weakness; vision changes; worsening of depression.

This is not a complete list of all side effects that may occur.

I hope your friend knows about ALL these great advantages of the drug they are consuming.

[MineralMan]

185. Fortunately, she suffers from none of those.

Every medication has potential side effects, and that includes alternative medicines. Some people experience them. Most do not.

[cpwm17]

212. These side effects are known because the drug has been scientifically studied

You're using the honesty of science against itself.

They don't promise miracles. The drug does what it does.

[stevenleser]

169. Yes, the conclusions are clear. Only the severely depressed do better on them than placebo

People who have minor to moderate depression do no better on SSRIs or SNRIs than placebo.

If you are severely depressed, however, you do benefit greatly from those drugs.

[underseasurveyor]

173. But the profit driven drug business

over sell their product to those that maybe feeling a little bit sad. Or they convince parents that their teen that's acting out will be more manageable if given, speed, anti-anxiety, anti-depressants, etc. and personally I know two teens that went from lively, normal, active teens, all with normal levels of angst, to becoming sullen, spaced out kids and both of them blew their brains out. A proven and known side-effect in younger people.

No I don't believe or trust the "studies" or the mass marketing that these drugs are proven safe. Drug patents and USDA approval are all too easily bought and sold.

[stevenleser]

176. That is because improperly prescribed, SSRI's/SNRI's can push a person into hypomania.

Having lived with someone who was bipolar II for 12 years, I know a lot more about depression and hypomania than I wish that I did. Most bipolar II suicides do not occur when the person is in the 'down' portion of their bipolar illness, it happens when they are up, in a condition called hypomania. Improper dosage of SSRI's/SNRI's can bring on an episode of hypomania.

[underseasurveyor]

183. Of this I am already aware and understand.

Unfortunately.

Moreover the point is that too many people trust the world of "medicine" to ease their ails with pills and when drug companies market their drugs on TV, radio, newspapers, internet, spam, then if I want a particular drug all I need do is find a doctor willing to prescribe it for me. It's quite simple.

Those that truly need meds for any reason I wish them all the blessings in the world, really I do. Do I believe that chiropractics or massage can replace drugs that act on chemical imbalances in the brain? Not so much. But for someone like me who has had doctors wanting to cut me open, front and back, I say no way. My chiropractor keeps me straight and free of pain and 10 or so years ago I cured my own acid reflux without drugs or surgery. Natural, effective, cheaply and safely with no side effects what-so-ever.

I don't dismiss drugs for anyone that truly needs them. I just wish that more people understood that western medicine is not the cure all for everything and everyone and that there are alternative remedies that do work. I have so many friends that go to their doctors a lot and it's so funny to me when after a few weeks have past they'll say I'm not feeling better or I feel worse than before. Then they say, I think I'll go back again.
What

I will only go to a doctor if I'm shot, stabbed, or in labor.

[MattBaggins]

235. Do you honestly believe that the profit driven Big Woo

is any different?

Aisles upon aisles of pure junk in every store.

[joshcryer]

239. Not just the drug business but the doctors doing the prescribing.

There have been studies about over prescribing anti-depressants. Most of the people on them don't need to be.

The drugs do have a scientific purpose though.

[MattBaggins]

234. Yes 200+ years of Science and Medicine have not amazing things

Taken us light years beyond Big Woo and Big Witchcraft.

Eastern medicine did not eradicate Polio.

[Egalitarian Thug]

270. Neither did Big Pharma, nor did the government.

Edit: And while we're talking about it, it is worth noting that the overwhelming majority of the knowledge for that 200+ years, as in almost all of it, was and probably still is, wrong.

[MattBaggins]

274. That's one hell of a made up statement.

Any links to back that up?

Can you quantify that "overwhelming majority" or that "most"?

[Egalitarian Thug]

296. If you'd bother to pick up some books...

never mind.

[MattBaggins]

297. I pick up many books

I have book shelves even in my dining room filled with textbooks from Chemistry, Biology, Math, and many others. Have boxes of science textbooks in my attic.

[Egalitarian Thug]

306. Well then you know that almost every advance started out wrong.

Either the hypothesis was correct and eschewed by the established scientific community, or was wrong yet found its way into practice for years, sometimes decades before it was rejected.

We all know that heroin, cocaine, amphetamines, barbiturates, etc. were sold for everything and recommended for children as well, and of course the original 4 out of 5 doctors were raking it in selling cigarettes. How many more examples would you like?

[MattBaggins]

307. Examples of nothing?

Keep going as long as you like. I am doing other things.

[Egalitarian Thug]

311. No, I don't other's homework for them.

As if...

You have to pick up the book, open it (right hand side) and suss out the meaning of those little squiggles you'll find inside for yourself.

This is what passes for skepticism today? Pyrrho would be so ashamed.

[GreenMask]

275. Like germ theory?

Like Germ Theory...or eradicating some diseases with vaccines...or cancer treatments...or vastly extending life expectancy...

[Egalitarian Thug]

295. Perfect example. Germ theory was outrageous quackery and no reputable scientist

would have anything to do with it for decades.

The list of science, and especially medical science, being right and discarded as crazy (dare we say woo-woo?) or completely wrong while accepted practice goes on and on. Even when we're right, we're usually wrong. For a more contemporary example, look at the dosages of progesterone in the early days of the pill.

The scientific method is all about knowing that your hypothesis is probably wrong and that's why we follow the process.

[Lionessa]

138. You mean all those double blind tests we've been finding out are rigged to give new meds

credibility in it's efficacy as well as it's safety. You mean those tests, the one's that are paid for by those that intend to profit from advertising rare diseases as widespread like mucus buildup and restless legs and acid reflux so that anyone with the slightest similarity runs to the doc to get a script?

Yeah, show 'em. Until the FDA is reliable, and/or testing is done by un-connected labs, it's all bullshit.

[MineralMan]

143. Links, please.

To which tests, exactly, are you referring?

[pnwmom]

232. Are you accusing the University of Washington, one of Bastyr's collaborators,

of colluding in rigged research? Or the NIH of funding rigged research?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=936822

[patrice]

149. Yes, but we also need more naturalistic research, to try to understand qualitatively significant fac

tors, not just quantitative.

Numbers aren't everything. Sometimes things such as perspective make "the difference".

Physical systems have emergent properties that, while they may not be the difference between a cure and not, could be significant in other ways. Not necessarily significant, of course, but we will never know, unless we look.

The history of rational empiricism, Science, includes paradigm shifts, some of them what we would refer to as "intuitive".

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions.html?id=xnjS401VuFMC

[MineralMan]

151. I'm all for research.

But it has to be done in the proper way.

[patrice]

152. Absolutely. There's no way to share it if it isn't. There must be some kind of connecting commonalit

y, preferably a collaboratively designed process in my book, something in addition to peer review.

[pnwmom]

231. What's a shame is that you haven't bothered to find out about the research that IS being done.

Things have changed in the last thirty years.

For example, from the Bastyr University (naturopathic) website, just a few of the studies they're currently involved in, partnering with the University of Washington School of medicine and other conventional researchers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=936822

[Ian David]

54. Do you know what they call Alternative Medicine that's been proved to work?

They call it "Medicine."

And Medicine is what the ACA is supposed to pay for.

[MadHound]

78. Really?

Well then I guess that the ACA won't be covering things like Xanax, Zoloft and other such drugs that can harm and kill just as often as they help.

That's not medicine, that's a fifty-fifty crap shoot.

[Egalitarian Thug]

106. And do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work,

but hurts pharmaceutical and medical device profits?

Illegal.

[uppityperson]

107. and quackery.

[Egalitarian Thug]

142. I guess you missed the proven effective part. n/t

[uppityperson]

145. No, I haven't. Since massage therapy now has studies proving effectiveness for some

things, it is still called quackery.

[Egalitarian Thug]

154. If it is effective, it is not, by definition, quackery.

quack

1. a fraudulent or ignorant pretender to medical skill.
2. a person who pretends, professionally or publicly, to skill, knowledge, or qualifications he or she does not possess; a charlatan.
adjective
3. being a quack: a quack psychologist who complicates everyone's problems.
4. presented falsely as having curative powers: quack medicine.

[underseasurveyor]

164. You two are agreeing

When you posted , "And do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work, but hurts pharmaceutical and medical device profits?
Illegal."

Uppity added, "and quackery."

They call it illegal AND they call it quackery, is what uppity was adding.

[Egalitarian Thug]

168. Oh! Oops. Apologies to uppity and thanks to you.

[Godhumor]

157. Proving not proved

And it has a proved effect on temproary relief of aches, pains and mood.

It however is being claimed to help with things far, fary beyond that, which is why Quack Watch splits MT into two categories:

Legitimate MT, which deals with the temporary.

Quack MT, which deals with all the other claims.

And, I highly, highly doubt clinical controlled double blind trials run by outsiders will find otherwise.

[Egalitarian Thug]

187. I can't even get an apology posted right today. ^ look up there ^. n/t

[uppityperson]

193. I've been offline a while. We are agreeing and no problems, was being too curt nt

[underseasurveyor]

119. +1

[polichick]

3. Woo-hoo, big pharma gets another boost!

[Godhumor]

4. No, subsidized CAM is being reduced or wiped out, which is a boost to all of us

Desubsidizing snakeoil should never be seen as a bad thing.

[Zalatix]

11. Lots of snake oil coming from big pharma, too.

Of course you'll claim I am lying, so I will need to offer examples:

Bextra/Valdecoxib
Thalidomide
Rosiglitazone

Aw hell, this list is too long for your hard drive to hold. Might as well post up a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

Not all alternative medicine is good, but not all of it is bad.

[Godhumor]

14. Withdrawn drugs is comparable to mandates funding CAM?

It is not even remotely the point of this--CAM, under no circumstances, should be a required part of medically necessary insurance plans. Umbrella medical drug coverage absolutely should be. Drugs that had to be withdrawn does not change the fact.

[MattBaggins]

236. Thalidomide is being used for many people with very serious illnesses

[Patiod]

32. Godhumor, you are barking up the tree here on DU

I love this place, but the one downside is that the woo-woo is strong here. Jenny McCarthy has more credibility than the APA or ACIP.

I love Quackwatch and Skeptic's Guide, but good luck. I tried to tell an otherwise sane and thoughtful DUer who I know and like that Airborne is a crock, and she said "but I take it to prevent colds and I don't get colds. And if I feel one coming on and take it, I don't get it. So I know it works". No amount of sending her actual research did a bit of good.

[MattBaggins]

237. Did you explain to them how many universes one needs for a C100 dilution?

[Zalatix]

266. Then there's some of us who take heed of Quackwatch and

are also aware that Big Pharmaceutical drugs can be very dangerous, too. Worse yet, Big Pharma has been caught lying about the effects of their drugs.

And don't tell me no one believes Big Pharma outright because I see scads of lawsuits by people who got burned by their snake oil.

[Patiod]

312. Just because Big Pharma needs strict policing doesn't mean Big Snake Oil is OK

As someone whose living depends on Big Pharma, I probably know better than most people about all the crappy things they have done. Ignoring research they don't like, pushing drugs for conditions they aren't indicated for (thank you, Perdue, for the scourge of Oxycontin addiction in America), and bribing doctors. These people need STRICT supervision, and the FDA is stepping in and doing their job - not perfectly, but enough that it has Big Pharma execs cursing and crying on a regular basis. God bless the FDA, with all their flaws, for all the pain and reform they are bringing on Big Pharma.

But just because Big Pharma has done some shady stuff and needs policing, that doesn't mean that alternative medicine makers have a single thread to hang their load of crap on. Homeopathy is a crock of baloney. Chiropractic might make your back feel better, but it's dangerous for your neck, and can't cure anything, period. Megavitamins are useless at best and dangerous at worst.

Unless I see good long term data and replicated studies (and I know what good data and replicated studies look like) I'm not believing anybody's woo-woo. I wish the FDA were allowed to strictly supervise "alternative medicines" as tightly as they are allowed to police traditional pharmaceuticals, but there's too much industry pressure from Big Snake Oil for that.

Personally, I believe that a good diet, regular exercise and good sleeping habits (with PT when necessary) can handle most of the common complaints that send people running to standard or alternative medicines.

And when it's Something Big, I'll trust Big Pharma and Western Medicine any day before I'll trust Big Snake Oil.

Maybe Steve Jobs would still be alive if he had done the same.

[uppityperson]

288. I love quackwatch but have found untrue non-sources "facts" there which lead me to

not seek another source. Which is too bad.

[pnwmom]

13. Exactly. Who cares about nutrition, vitamins, minerals, and all those

other non-patentable, not-very-profitable, ways of keeping people healthy?

The kind that naturopaths, for example, might prescribe.

[Godhumor]

16. Absolutely, naturopaths should not have protected subsidized mandates

Actually, naturopaths shouldn't even be considered medical practitioners.

[pnwmom]

23. Your ignorance is showing. Medical doctors in Washington often recommend naturopaths.

They often provide a useful adjunct to standard medical practitioners here.

[Godhumor]

27. Which is the C in CAM, and is not even remotely medically necessary or even useful

And I am thankful that, if it is included in Washington's insurance mandates, the ACA will help to remove its legitimacy.

[pnwmom]

38. Sorry, but I've had better luck trusting my M.D.'s here, and their referrals,

which have included other conventional practitioners, osteopaths, and naturopaths, than random blowhards on D.U.

[Godhumor]

43. And, I'm glad the country will be trusting scietific rigor instead of pseudoscience

Naturopaths have nothing to worry about if they can prove their therapies are medically and scietifically effective and necessary. They can't. About as simple as you can get.

[pscot]

49. If scientific rigor were the criteria

there would be a lot of back surgeons looking for gainful employment.

[pnwmom]

51. They can. Bastyr University has been actively engaged in research for years, in partnership

with organizations like the NIH and University of Washington.

http://www.bastyr.edu/research/studies

Breast Cancer Integrative Oncology: Prospective Matched Controlled Outcomes Study NIH/NCCAM (R01)

Status: Ongoing
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: Leanna Standish
Project period: August 1, 2010, to March 31, 2015
The purpose of this five-year project is to conduct a prospective matched controlled outcomes study that describes physician directed integrated oncology therapies and their effects on breast cancer patients' quality of life, cancer recurrence and survival rates for those who receive integrated o
Bastyr/UW Oncomycology Translational Research Center

Status: Ongoing
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: NIH/NCCAM (U19) Partnership with University of Washington
Co-investigator(s): Leanna Standish, Mary L. (Nora) Disis
Project period: September 29, 2010, to August 31, 2014
The Bastyr University/University of Washington PCCTR Oncomycology Research Center will investigate the immunologic and antitumor effects of Trametes versicolor (Tv) a traditional Chinese medicine medicinal mushroom, for use in the treatment of prostate cancer and breast cancer patients in the U.S
PSK as Neoadjuvant Therapy for Locally Advanced Breast Cancer Principal

Status: Ongoing
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: Hailing Lu (University of Washington)
Co-investigator(s): Cynthia Wenner, PhD
Project period: April 2010 – March 2014
Clinical management of locally advanced breast cancer remains challenging as patients have a high risk for relapse, especially those patients whose tumors over-express the HER-2/neu (HER2+) oncogenic protein and have limited expression of estrogen receptors (ER-).
Intranasal Glutathione in Parkinson's Disease

Status: Ongoing
Study area: Neurology
Principal investigator: Laurie Mischley, ND
Project period: January 2010 – December 2014
Parkinson's disease (PD) is considered a progressive and irreversible neurodegenerative disease. Current therapies improve disease symptoms, however none alter the underlying degenerative course.

[Godhumor]

62. Yeah, no. Bastyr is infamous within the medical world for its pseudoscience

But more power to them if they can a) prove it and b) prove it correctly and c) get others unassociated with naturopathy to prove it again idependently.

[pnwmom]

70. Right, you speak for the entire medical world -- except for the N.I.H., the University of Washington

Medical School, and all the other conventional medical practitioners who collaborate with Bastyr.

[Godhumor]

74. Google Bastyr quackery, it may prove enlightening

But as I said, if they can actually prove it and have it verified, good for them.

[pnwmom]

129. Why, so I can read posts by a bunch of ill-informed blowhards? n/t

[Confusious]

222. Yea, that's being open minded.

[Confusious]

218. Seems your much loved bastyr

Does traditional Chinese medicine.

The same medicine that is driving species to extinction.

Where's the harm?

[MineralMan]

283. OK. When those studies are done and reported,

we can discuss them.

[pnwmom]

293. Why wait for that? Bastyr's researchers have been publishing for decades.

Here's an example of one of the faculty there. She has been conducting NIH studies since 1994 and has a joint appointment at the University of Washington. She also has collaborated with investigators at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, a national cancer facility.

http://www.bastyr.edu/people/alumni-faculty-researcher/leanna-j-standish-phd-nd-lac-fabno


Leanna J. Standish, PhD, ND, LAc, FABNO
School of Naturopathic Medicine

Dr. Standish is currently a research professor for the School of Naturopathic Medicine at Bastyr, a clinical professor for the School of Public Health at the University of Washington, and affiliate research professor in the University of Washington's School of Medicine's radiology department.

Dr. Standish is also the medical director of the Bastyr Integrative Oncology Research Center (BIORC) and a clinical research professor at the Bastyr University Research Institute. She has served as principal investigator on several National Institutes of Health (NIH) research grants since 1994.

Education

PhD in neuroscience/biopsychology from the University of Massachusetts in 1978
ND from Bastyr University in 1991
MS in acupuncture and Oriental medicine from Bastyr University in 1994
Board certified in naturopathic oncology in 2006

SNIP

Research Activities

Dr. Standish's research over the last 15 years has been focused on HIV/AIDS, cancer, hepatitis C and functional brain-imaging cancer. She has collaborated with investigators at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and Children's Hospital in the study of CAM use among cancer patients in Washington state and also has directed research at Bastyr University to identify and describe the treatments used for breast cancer by naturopathic physicians in North America.

She has been principal investigator or co-investigator on several integrated oncology research projects including a randomized clinical trial of meditation or massage in end-of-life cancer patients, a phase I study of a medicinal mushroom as an adjuvant treatment for breast cancer, and development of an integrated oncology website for Seattle Cancer Care Alliance physicians and patients. She is the medical director of the new Bastyr University Integrated Oncology Research Clinic (BIORC), and also is interested in the scientific validation of homeopathic principles.

In her clinical practice, Dr. Standish specializes in treating cancer, hepatitis C and neurological diseases. She also conducts basic neurophysiological research on mind/body interactions. She has the experience to mentor postdoctoral fellows in the areas of CAM and integrated cancer treatment and prevention, adjunctive naturopathic medical management of adenocarcinoma, CAM research design, and both practice-based and outcomes research methods.

[MineralMan]

299. Actually, I read a couple of completed studies she was

involved in. The results were not particularly positive, with regard to CAM. Have you read them? It's interesting to see what the results are for completed studies, which is why I mentioned that. For example, the study about meditation and massage in end-of-life cancer patients did not show remarkably improved quality of life for those patients, although some benefit was shown. In any case, that particular study had nothing to do with extending the patients' lives...only whether a massage or meditation made them feel a little better before they died. That's hardly surprising. The mushroom test had little beneficial effect on those patients. Much of the research I've looked at is either surveys of publications or very sketchy in nature, when it comes to actually treating disease.

You assume that I don't check these things out. You assume incorrectly.

[pnwmom]

300. "Some benefit was shown." In the world of cancer studies, that kind of result is considered

positive. Small gains are still gains.

The point is that the researchers at Bastyr are conducting legitimate research in collaboration with conventional medical practitioners. They shouldn't all be dismissed as "woo-woo's."

[MineralMan]

302. Meditation and massage are not part of what I consider to be

Last edited Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:13 PM - Edit history (1)

"alternative medicine." Not at all. Both are well known to provide comfort, but are not medical treatments.

Your researcher is also heavily into homeopathy. Go find a study that show homeopathy to be effective. Homeopathy is the very definition of woo.

The thing is that some stuff pandered by the alternative medicine community actually involves active principles. Some of the herbals do have medicinal uses. The ones that work the best are actually part of the pharmacopeia. As has always been the case, dosages are difficult to control when working with the actual botanicals, and some botanicals can kill if misused. So, the ones that work, like digitalis, are made synthetically today and in standard strengths so they can be used accurately. Yes, they came from plants originally, but dosing yourself with foxglove is dangerous. There are many other examples of botanicals that have become part of regular medical care, but they are standardized and regulated, like all other prescription drugs.

The problem isn't with alternative medicine's reliance on natural remedies. The problem is that practitioners don't discriminate, and a lot of bogus crap is included under the umbrella of "alternative health care." Crystal healing, "network" chiropractic, laying on of hands, hot stone therapy, and a host of other bogus treatments, along with patently useless things like homeopathy are all part and parcel of the alternative health care business. Let that industry live by the same standards as the medical industry, with the same regulation, and we'd soon find out what is bogus and what is not. Big Natural Healthcare is as much a profit machine as Big Pharma, but with far less regulation.

No sale.

[pnwmom]

303. Are M.D. allergists also "woo woo"? Those allergy shots with the tiny amounts of allergens

that they inject into their patients?

[MineralMan]

304. Those allergists are not using homeopathetic

dilutions. The amount of the allergen in those subcutaneous injections is measurable and real. Very small amounts are used to prevent causing a systemic allergic reaction, but the allergen is present in measurable quantities. The quantity is very carefully controlled and standardized. If the patient is sensitive to that particular allergen, there is a visible reaction, but not a life-threatening systemic reaction. Nevertheless, the allergist always has countermeasures on hand, just in case there is a systemic reaction. It does occur, even with the minute quanitities of the allergen. You will sign a release to that effect, should you undergo that type of allergy testing.

In homeopathetic remedies, as used, the principal ingredient is not present in any quantity that can be measured. Whether you're taking it as a liquid or a pill, there's nothing there.

And, if you want to call me on my altered spelling of the word, go right ahead. Homeopathy is, indeed, pathetic. It is useless, except for lining the pockets of its practitioners.

[LiberalLoner]

84. I believe in good nutrition and even some

Chiropractor stuff - good for back problems - but i think prayer and healing crystals are both bs

Acupuncture im not sure about either way

[Zoeisright]

219. Oh, you mean the vitamins and minerals that are unregulated by the FDA?

Those expensive pills that, because they aren't regulated, most likely don't contain what it says on the label? Do a little research on this. Consumer Reports has written many articles on how what's on the label isn't what's in the pill in most supplements.

Not to mention the health claims these products make that are completely unverified by any scientific evidence.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/05/dangerous-supplements/index.htm

Fish Oil Tests Show Problems with Nearly 30% of Supplements Reviewed
Less Vitamin D than Listed
Contamination, Mislabeling among Glucosamine supplements
Calcium Supplements with Lead
Protein Powders Have Extra Sugar and Lead Contamination

http://www.consumerlab.com/

Supplements, because they are unregulated, are a scam. And naturopaths, who prescribe them, are no better than the M.D.s you disdain.

[Scootaloo]

26. Big pharma at least provides stuff that has an effect

Deepak Chopra and Silver Ravenswolf, not so much.

[pnwmom]

46. Folic acid during pregnancy has greatly reduced spina bifida, but it wasn't conventional

medicine that first discovered this. Conventional medicine has always been behind the curve on nutritional issues.

It's false to say that there's no research backing up naturopaths. Bastyr University, which conducts such research, is well respected here -- among medical doctors as well as naturopaths.

[Scootaloo]

60. You're missing the point

Vitamins and nutrition are important. Yes, we know. It's demonstrable. It's testable. It's possible to gather empirical proof. Personally, I wouldn't call a nutritional adviser a medical professional, any more than I would call the guy who gets raccoons out of your attic a raccoon whisperer, but at least they have evidence on their side.

But we're talking about the woo-woo shit here, pnwmom. Magnet bracelets, crystal therapy, homeopathy, aromatherapy, acupuncture, praying to angels, and chakra-tickling, stuff like that. Stuff that has no empirical evidence on its side, that has no demonstrable effect on health (or in the case of chiropractic therapy, a NEGATIVE effect). Stuff that is not medicine, that actually has a chance to result in more medical problems (for instance, the anti-vaccine bullshit) but that is nevertheless being subsidized by the taxpayer.

I personally have no problem paying for a pregnant lady's folic acid with my taxes. But I WILL have a problem with paying for her "Baby's first whalesong" CD that claims it will awaken her child's "inner glow" and make birth easier.

[pnwmom]

65. No, you are. The people I've been arguing with are those who lump naturopathy and acupuncture

in with crystal therapy and bracelets.

The efficacy of acupuncture has been confirmed in studies conducted by conventional medical researchers and there is also a body of research connected with naturopathy. Bastyr University often collaborates with U.W. and other conventional medical schools on this research.

For example:

http://www.bastyr.edu/research/studies

Breast Cancer Integrative Oncology: Prospective Matched Controlled Outcomes Study NIH/NCCAM (R01)

Status: Ongoing
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: Leanna Standish
Project period: August 1, 2010, to March 31, 2015
The purpose of this five-year project is to conduct a prospective matched controlled outcomes study that describes physician directed integrated oncology therapies and their effects on breast cancer patients' quality of life, cancer recurrence and survival rates for those who receive integrated o
Bastyr/UW Oncomycology Translational Research Center

Status: Ongoing
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: NIH/NCCAM (U19) Partnership with University of Washington
Co-investigator(s): Leanna Standish, Mary L. (Nora) Disis
Project period: September 29, 2010, to August 31, 2014
The Bastyr University/University of Washington PCCTR Oncomycology Research Center will investigate the immunologic and antitumor effects of Trametes versicolor (Tv) a traditional Chinese medicine medicinal mushroom, for use in the treatment of prostate cancer and breast cancer patients in the U.S
PSK as Neoadjuvant Therapy for Locally Advanced Breast Cancer Principal

Status: Ongoing
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: Hailing Lu (University of Washington)
Co-investigator(s): Cynthia Wenner, PhD
Project period: April 2010 – March 2014
Clinical management of locally advanced breast cancer remains challenging as patients have a high risk for relapse, especially those patients whose tumors over-express the HER-2/neu (HER2+) oncogenic protein and have limited expression of estrogen receptors (ER-).
Intranasal Glutathione in Parkinson's Disease

Status: Ongoing
Study area: Neurology
Principal investigator: Laurie Mischley, ND
Project period: January 2010 – December 2014
Parkinson's disease (PD) is considered a progressive and irreversible neurodegenerative disease. Current therapies improve disease symptoms, however none alter the underlying degenerative course.

[Scootaloo]

75. There's a reason, too, now that I look into it...

You've been representing naturopathy as "eat well and take your vitamins." I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but...

"Naturopathy, or Naturopathic Medicine, is a form of alternative medicine based on a belief in vitalism, which posits that a special energy called vital energy or vital force guides bodily processes such as metabolism, reproduction, growth, and adaptation."

lolwhut

"The particular modalities used by an individual naturopath varies with training and scope of practice. The demonstrated efficacy and scientific rationale also varies. These include: Acupuncture, Applied kinesiology, Botanical medicine, Brainwave entrainment, Chelation therapy for atherosclerosis, Colonic enemas, Color therapy, Cranial osteopathy, Hair analysis, Homeopathy, Iridology, Live blood analysis, Nature cure - a range of therapies based upon exposure to natural elements such as sunshine, fresh air, heat, or cold, Nutrition (examples include vegetarian and wholefood diet, fasting, and abstention from alcohol and sugar), Ozone therapy, Physical medicine (includes naturopathic, osseous, and soft tissue manipulative therapy, sports medicine, exercise and hydrotherapy), Psychological counseling (examples include meditation, relaxation, and other methods of stress management), Public health measures and hygiene, Reflexology, Rolfing, and Traditional Chinese medicine."

Brainwave entrainment, color therapy, ozone therapy, and -ing.

"Many forms of alternative medicine, including naturopathy, homeopathy, and chiropractic are based on beliefs opposed to vaccination and have practitioners who voice their opposition. This includes non-medically trained naturopaths. The reasons for this negative vaccination view are complicated and rest, at least in part, on the early philosophies which shape the foundation of these professions"

And there's the big flushing noise.

Naturopathy lacks an adequate scientific basis under the methodology of evidence-based medicine (EBM). Members of the medical community show a critical or rejecting view of naturopathy. Traditional naturopathic practitioners surveyed in Australia perceive EBM as an ideologic assault on their beliefs in vitalistic and holistic principles.

Yeah, sorry. This just isn't going to work, pnwmom.

[MattBaggins]

241. Are you supporting Naturopathy or botanical medicine?

they are not the same thing although Naturopaths will use botanicals.

[pnwmom]

253. I'm supporting the work of Bastyr Naturopathic University and its trained practitioners,

and the research it has conducted under the auspices of the NIH.

[MattBaggins]

256. Bastyr is about a reputable as Bob Jones

[MattBaggins]

238. That is completely and utterly false to try and say

medical science was unaware of folic acid.

[pnwmom]

255. I never said it was "unaware of folic acid." They didn't recommend the standard use of

folic acid during pregnancy to reduce the risk of spinal bifida till years after naturopaths did.

[MattBaggins]

260. Going to have to disagree with you

Naturopaths and Folic Acid is like the classic blind squirrel. They push vitamin supplements for everything and did not have an iota of an idea why it was important. Scientists were looking into importance of folic acid before naturopathy they just didn't jump the gun before researching it thoroughly.

That's almost as bad as Homeopaths claiming they are legit just because they accidentally stumbled on nitro for angina relief.

[MineralMan]

308. Here's a history of folic acid research by the medical community:

History

In the 1920s, scientists believed folate deficiency and anemia were the same condition.[80] A key observation by researcher Lucy Wills in 1931 led to the identification of folate as the nutrient needed to prevent anemia during pregnancy. Dr. Wills demonstrated anemia could be reversed with brewer's yeast. Folate was identified as the corrective substance in brewer's yeast in the late 1930s, and was first isolated in and extracted from spinach leaves by Mitchell and others in 1941.[81] Bob Stokstad isolated the pure crystalline form in 1943, and was able to determine its chemical structure while working at the Lederle Laboratories of the American Cyanamid Company.[82] This historical research project, of obtaining folic acid in a pure crystalline form in 1945, was done by the team called the "folic acid boys," under the supervision and guidance of Director of Research Dr. Yellapragada Subbarao, at the Lederle Lab, Pearl River, NY.[83] This research subsequently led to the synthesis of the antifolate aminopterin, the first-ever anticancer drug, the clinical efficacy was proven by Sidney Farber in 1948. In the 1950s and 1960s, scientists began to discover the biochemical mechanisms of action for folate.[80] In 1960, experts first linked folate deficiency to neural tube defects.[80] In the late 1990s, US scientists realized, despite the availability of folate in foods and in supplements, there was still a challenge for people to meet their daily folate requirements, which is when the US implemented the folate fortification program.[80]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folic_acid

So, let's see the history of its use by naturopaths, with links. I'll check back later.

[Oilwellian]

31. Indeed

Acupuncture prevents me from having to take pain meds for arthritis in the hip. I was living with a high level of pain and since receiving acupuncture every two weeks, that pain is at a low one or two. With continued treatment, I believe it will eventually be gone entirely. If indeed they stop paying for acupuncture, they will be paying more later for toxic livers and patients will be masking their ailments rather than actually healing them. Stupid idiots.

[jeff47]

245. Here's the thing....you don't actually need an acupuncturist.

Study was done with completely untrained people performing acupuncture. They were just as effective as the trained people.

So if the government stops paying for it, the good news is you can pay pretty much anyone off the street and get similar results.

[Odin2005]

5. I see the woo-woos are already whining.

[pnwmom]

24. I see the big pharma fans are out in force. n/t

[backscatter712]

28. Oh no! The taxpayers won't pay for your sugar pills!

The homeopaths are panicking!

[pnwmom]

48. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Homeopathy, naturopathy, and acupuncture are entirely different things.

[backscatter712]

93. At least vitamins have some beneficial effects.

But homeopathy is nothing but woo-woo. The process by definition is diluting a substance until there's nothing left, in most cases, not a single molecule, and expecting what is essentially water dripped over sugar pills to have a medicinal effect.

Homeopathy is nonsense. Pure and simple. And I'm well within my rights to ask that tax money not be wasted on it.

But do ask me about the homeopathic beer Placebrew I made for the Auraria Campus Atheists Psuedoscience Fair. I used it to illustrate how homeopathy works (or fails to work), and to make the point that if homeopathy actually worked, somebody would try to get drunk or high off of it.

I'll leave accupuncture as an argument for another day...

[Mimosa]

265. I know you are right

I wasted a couple of years being treated by a homeopath MD.

One of my dearest friends is a medical prof. He authored an article and gave speeches at seminars about acupuncture and homeopathy being quackery. The threats and nasty responses he received from practitioners of both turned him a bit paranoid.

[MattBaggins]

243. no they are not

naturopaths use homeopathy all the time.

[uppityperson]

285. Some do, true. But many do not. Like MD's that over prescribe. There are some unscrupulous doctors

of all sorts. But to say "all ND's use homeopathy all the time" is comparable to saying "all MD's over prescribe all the time" also. Incorrect.

[Moonwalk]

163. Name Calling and and Either/Or Fallacies means you've lost the argument....

Name calling means you call the person a bad name, and, as they don't want to be called that, they presumably will shut up. Like when Republicans call those arguing for Obama "communists." Those who don't want to be viewed as communists shut up. It's a form of intimidation and it's done because you know you've no good argument, so shutting up the other side--and/or intimidating people into not wanting to be identified with that other side--is the best you can manage. You said, "Big pharma are out in force" meaning that those in favor of this measure are pro-big-Pharma. That's name calling, as you don't know they are any such thing. Name-calling makes it look like you haven't any good counter argument. No evidence, proof or adequate response. You've been reduced to trying to shut up the opposition.

Second is the either/or. You make the assumption that if they're not in favor of these alternative meds, they must be in favor of big-pharma. This presumes one can't be in favor or both or neither. And that, again, is not true. These people are saying that alternative medicines have to pass scientific, double-blind studies before they're viewed as true medicine and subsidized by tax payers--AND it seems they want the same for all drugs, no matter where they come from. Be it the medical marijuana farmer, the lady with the crystals, or the big company trying to sell it's newest drug for constipation.

Putting it another way, the evil that drug companies do doesn't absolve the evil that quack medicine does. If the medicine is quack, then it shouldn't be financed, no matter who is putting it out. But you ignore this and, instead, argue that this discussion is either/or--that if a person doesn't favor alternative they must be on the side of big pharma. Which, again, makes you appear desperate, like the only way to win this argument is to scare people into agreeing with you. If you have a legitimate argument for why these alternative medicines are valid and should be financed, then present the evidence. Slipping into such fallacies only makes you look like you can't win the argument legitimately.

[MagickMuffin]

181. And post #5 isn't name calling

[uppityperson]

198. I think you meant to reply here since this is the name calling

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002936307#post5

[pnwmom]

227. Check the context, please. The person I was responding to had just used the term "woo-woos."

Maybe that was just fine with you.

[Confusious]

225. No, science fans

who don't like snake oil salesmen, which btw, bastyr university sells. real snake oil.

I think they called it "much maligned"

[Poll_Blind]

7. Empiricism, the scientific method: These are my gods. Their magic is STRONG. nt

PB

[LiberalLoner]

10. +1

[Tsiyu]

15. I'll say

That "magic" has so many Americans taking so many drugs, there's no other explanation BUT voodoo.

[magical thyme]

47. +1,000,000!

Good one!

[underseasurveyor]

166. Those drugs are magic.

They turn brains into broccoli. *poof* It's magic.

[Tsiyu]

189. They turn a lot of people into *dead* around here

When you can get people addicted to painkillers then you don't have to give them real health care.

Doctors are basically pill salespeople any more, it seems.

SO much for "magic science."

[MattBaggins]

244. We could always replace it with chinese "medicine"

Last edited Fri Jul 13, 2012, 02:34 AM - Edit history (1)

and kill all sorts of critters so people can have medicine cabinets stock full of seahorses and snake balls and rhino horns and bat spleens and who knows what else.

[Art_from_Ark]

248. Herbals are by definition derived from plants

So none of those animal products you listed qualify as herbals

[MattBaggins]

251. Fixed

[Art_from_Ark]

254. I will agree about the Chinese medicines derived from animal products

Chinese herbals, on the other hand, may be a different story. Here in Japan, for example, Chinese herbals and their derivatives are often prescribed by doctors, and people I have talked to who have used them say they are fairly effective.

[MattBaggins]

258. People say a lot of things

but studies are better.

I wouldn't touch Chinese herbals with a ten foot pole without oversight. I did Chinese delivery when I was in college and one of the guys tried to give me some pills that were belladonna in little balls of creosote.

[Art_from_Ark]

262. I'm sure there are studies about the efficacy of Chinese herbal medicines in Japan

If you give me a name, I would be glad to look it up.

The one herbal medicine that I have used myself is a toothpaste that is made with various herbs to treat periodontitis-- and I have found that it works quite well.

[MattBaggins]

273. Brushing your teeth is the number one way to prevent periodontitis.

[uppityperson]

286. Actually, flossing is better at preventing periodontitis. Besides which, he said "treat".

[MattBaggins]

292. Actually brushing and flossing

but you know that

[uppityperson]

310. And eating right and using good toothpaste, and good genes, and lots of other things too.

Indeed. But if you have to chose between brushing and flossing, flossing is better at preventing gingivitis, brushing better at preventing cavities on tooth's biting surface. Proper diet does all sorts of good things.

Up since 4 am dealing with a thunderstorm and terrified puppy. tired

[Tsiyu]

267. Strawman

and not a well-constructed one.

[pnwmom]

17. Bastyr University does research on naturopathic medicine.

Maybe you should check it out.

One example: folic acid. Doctors of naturopathy knew about its importance to pregnant women long before conventional medicine did -- because big pharma makes little profits pushing vitamins.

If the health issue concerns nutrition or allergies, a naturopath can often be much more helpful than a conventional doctor. And the work of naturopathic doctors is backed up by research. It just isn't funded by the large drug companies.

[fizzgig]

20. best i can tell my insurance does not cover alternative medicine

it covers chiropractic care, but only in certain situations

[Woody Woodpecker]

21. I reject Obamacare beacause

It doesn't cover medical marijuana and it should! Medicare should cover it at 100% cost.

[Zoeisright]

220. You reject the Affordable Care Act because of THAT???

So children no longer being denied insurance for pre-existing conditions, no more lifetime caps on insurance, kids staying on their parent's plans up to age 26, no more paying for wellness exams: all that you disparage because you can't get free Mary Jane? God, that's just pitiful.

[uppityperson]

33. I am glad massage therapists are doing scientific studies so massage therapy may be continued.

If you can't prove it works, it shouldn't be covered. That is for every type of health care. But to say all CAM is woowoo is as wrong as saying all BigPharm is crap.

[Godhumor]

37. But it would move from CAM to accepted medicinal practice when proven effective

CAM work that can't undertake scietific rigors stays CAM. And CAM, scietifically speaking, is crap.

[uppityperson]

41. Your definition of CAM is "unprovable crap"? Oh. nt

[Godhumor]

56. Complementary and Alternative Medicine is defined as such

It is CAM as opposed to accepted because it hasn't gone through the scientific rigors associated with accepted medical practice. If a CAM treatment is proven effective (keyword being proven) it is no longer an alternative to scientifically sound treatment but is, in fact, an actual treatment.

CAM is a catch-all for the stuff that can't go through that rigor.

[uppityperson]

57. I'd like to see a link to a reputable source with that definition vs your definition. Thank you.

[Godhumor]

67. Sure

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam

Defining CAM is difficult, because the field is very broad and constantly changing. NCCAM defines CAM as a group of diverse medical and health care systems, practices, and products that are not generally considered part of conventional medicine. Conventional medicine (also called Western or allopathic medicine) is medicine as practiced by holders of M.D. (medical doctor) and D.O. (doctor of osteopathic medicineDoctors of Osteopathic Medicine (DOs) are fully licensed physicians. They provide a full range of services, from prescribing drugs to performing surgery, and employ a "whole person" approach to health care. DOs focus special attention on the musculoskeletal system, a system of bones and muscles that makes up about two-thirds of the body's mass. They may use osteopathic manipulative treatment, a system of manual therapy, to treat mechanical strains affecting all aspects of the anatomy, relieve pain, and improve physiologic function.) degrees and by allied health professionals, such as physical therapists, psychologists, and registered nurses. The boundaries between CAM and conventional medicine are not absolute, and specific CAM practices may, over time, become widely accepted.

"Complementary medicine" refers to use of CAM together with conventional medicine, such as using acupunctureA family of procedures that originated in traditional Chinese medicine. Acupuncture is the stimulation of specific points on the body by a variety of techniques, including the insertion of thin metal needles though the skin. It is intended to remove blockages in the flow of qi and restore and maintain health. in addition to usual care to help lessen pain. Most use of CAM by Americans is complementary. "Alternative medicine" refers to use of CAM in place of conventional medicine. "Integrative medicine" combines treatments from conventional medicine and CAM for which there is some high-quality evidence of safety and effectiveness. It is also called integrated medicine.

...

Rigorous, well-designed clinical trials for many CAM therapies are often lacking; therefore, the safety and effectiveness of many CAM therapies are uncertain. NCCAM is sponsoring research designed to fill this knowledge gap by building a scientific evidence base about CAM therapies—whether they are safe; and whether they work for the conditions for which people use them and, if so, how they work.


-------------------

To boil it down, CAM is used alongside with or instead of conventional medicine though not meeting scientific rigor. If they work and if they are a valid treatment that should be in widespread use they become conventional medicine. It is how the field evolves.

[uppityperson]

80. Thanks for the link but it says nothing about CAM being "crap" or unprovable or validating your defn

It says

Rigorous, well-designed clinical trials for many CAM therapies are often lacking

but nothing about being unprovable or "scietifically speaking, is crap". or "It is CAM as opposed to accepted because it hasn't gone through the scientific rigors associated with accepted medical practice. If a CAM treatment is proven effective (keyword being proven) it is no longer an alternative to scientifically sound treatment but is, in fact, an actual treatment.

CAM is a catch-all for the stuff that can't go through that rigor."

Did you mean "scientifically"?

It DOES say

NCCAM defines CAM as a group of diverse medical and health care systems, practices, and products that are not generally considered part of conventional medicine."

which is very different from your definition it would move from CAM to accepted medicinal practice when proven effective

[Godhumor]

87. Well, why would the people representing it call it crap?

Look, I'm not arguing with you--what I tried to link was even they say that it is a) used with conventional medicine b) or instead of and c) it hasn't been proven effective or safe. I, personally, call it crap because of the c). If it becomes not crap it a) has been proven effective and b) is introduced as conventional therapy. you want me to say that crap is my specific word, then sure, it is.

Massages are nice, relaxing and feel great. They may even some day be proven effective as an actual treatment for something. But until then, they're not accepted outside of the CAM umbrella nor should they be.

[uppityperson]

94. You generalize too much. My massages are not "relaxing and feel great". Yes, I'm a Western med & CAM

provider.

I do massages for injury treatment and care for kids on vents as a nurse. WA L&I likes injured workers to get massages as it is proven effective for treating many injuries and preventing getting reinjured.

Like Western Med, it does not work for everyone or every condition. But it does work for many.

As far as "Massages are nice, relaxing and feel great"? hahahahahahahaha. A nice, relaxing, feel great massage may. But not what I do. I get paid money to hurt people. Find the sore spots and poke them. Rub back and forth on repetitively injured tendons to help with tendonitis. "nice, relaxing and feel great"?

Educate yourself. You seem to have strong opinions yet generalize too much.

As far as your subject line, wtf does that mean? "Well, why would the people representing it call it crap?" CAM providers call their work "crap"? Good grief.

[Godhumor]

96. No, my headline was that they wouldn't call it crap

When you asked where does it say crap?

As for Massage Therapy:

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/massage.html

Ordinary massage and the legitimate practice of massage therapy should not be categorized as quackery. Massage can help people relax, relieve aching muscles, and temporarily lift a person's mood. However, many therapists make claims that go far beyond what massage can accomplish. And even worse, massage therapy schools, publications, and professional groups are an integral part of the deception.

There is no evidence-based reason to believe that massage can influence the course of any disease. Yet the American Massage Therapy Association (AMTA) Web site has claimed that that therapeutic massage can help with allergies, asthma, bronchitis, spastic colon, constipation, diarrhea, and sinusitis [2]. The site also suggests that "massage is to the human body what a tune-up is to a car" and that "therapeutic massage can be part of your regular healthcare maintenance." And a 1997 AMTA booklet falsely states that massage can promote easier breathing, assist with removal of metabolic wastes, strengthen the immune system, and help prevent disease [3].

-------------------------

Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good are its tangible benefits. Beyond that is silliness.

[uppityperson]

103. Another fail. Here is what AMTA does say, and links to research now, 2012, not 1997 "AMTA booklet".

http://www.amtamassage.org/infocenter/healthcare_articles-and-associations.html
I took the links out. Go there to find them. Educate yourself. Or don't and continue to spout biased unproven opinions.

Health Care Articles

Emerging evidence shows that massage therapy is effecitve in treating a number of conditions. The following articles offer more information on massage therapy treatment options.

Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disordersage Therapy Helps Calm & Center Children on the Autism Spectrum
Burn Victims
Fibromyalgia
HIV/AIDS
Oncology Massage
Pain Management
Temporomandibular Joint (TMJ)
Institute for Integrative Healthcare Studies – Relieve TMJ Pain with Massage
mtj® (Massage Therapy Journal®) – Jaws

I notice you avoided responding to my countering your "Massages are nice, relaxing and feel great". I bet you don't respond to these links countering "They may even some day be proven effective as an actual treatment for something".

[uppityperson]

110. "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" sounds like a lot of prescriptions you seem ok with

Not sure why prescriptions that are "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" are ok with you.

[Godhumor]

121. I have not talked about any prescribed drugs other that normal umbrella prescription coverage

Not once, not anywhere in this entire thread.

And I am trying to hit as many replies as I can, because I'm actually trying to respond to pretty much everyone. Not avoiding it.

[uppityperson]

125. why are prescriptions that are "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" ok with you?

[Godhumor]

130. I'm not sure what you're trying to get me to say, sorry

If I want temporary relief from strain or aches I take an aspirin or, and this is true, I get a massage.

[uppityperson]

141. You continue to ignore what I write to counter your massage assertions.

Last edited Thu Jul 12, 2012, 08:35 PM - Edit history (1)

You wrote "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good are its tangible benefits. Beyond that is silliness." about massage therapy. You say it is " CAM, scietifically speaking, is crap." You wrote "Massages are nice, relaxing and feel great. They may even some day be proven effective as an actual treatment for something. But until then, they're not accepted outside of the CAM umbrella nor should they be." You wrote lies about AMTA.

I have given proof proving all those wrong or at best only partially accurate.

You have not addressed any of my proof or what I wrote about any of that.

You are fine with Western Medicine's prescriptions for "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" yet lie and mock about massage therapy.

I want you to realize and understand massage is not just for ["i]"Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good are its tangible benefits. Beyond that is silliness."

I want you to comment that you were wrong that " CAM, scietifically speaking, is crap."

You wrote lies about AMTA and I want those retracted.

Finally, I want you to say why getting a prescription for medicine that is for "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" is fine yet massage therapy which has been proven to be so much more is, in your words "crap".

Is this clear enough? Can you do any of that or will you now try and deflect with something else?

[Godhumor]

148. Your proof maintains massage as therapy for HIV/AIDS victims, autism spectrum, etc.

That is not proof. That is what landed it on Quack Watch on the first place. It's tangible benefits is calming and temporary relief of aches and pain. That is the known and accepted use of MT. Claiming it helps burn victims beyond providing that is just not right.

As temporary relief goes, it helps mood and aches. It helps with relaxation. I am not and will not argue against that, everything else is scientifically unproven.

[easttexaslefty]

165. You have no understanding

of how the body systems work. Massage helps burn victims by breaking down scar tissue with cross fiber friction. That is not woo-woo but fact.

[Godhumor]

171. Oh good, point me to the empirical studies that say so

Helps victims relax, release tightness, sure. Permanently healing scar tissue? Not so much.

[underseasurveyor]

178. NOTHING was said about "permanently healing scar tissue" in ETL's comment.

No wonder you're so confused and befuddled. Your comprehension skills need some serious attention.

[Godhumor]

179. oh so broken down scar tissue comes back?

Since he claims it breaks down scar tissue and you're saying this is not permanent, glad we agree it didn't actually do anything.

[underseasurveyor]

184. IF you had any understanding of the subject you'd know better than to ask that.

However it is plain that you don't.

In relation to burns.

"6. Scar massage
"This approach is usually combined with several other modalities. Deep massage reportedly stretches fresh scar and breaks down the cement or matrix holding the scar contracted. Massage therapy appears most beneficial in preventing contractures. However, massage also mechanically stimulates fibroblast synthesis of collagen. Therefore, this approach must be combined with an anticollagen synthesis approach to be of significant benefit."

It doesn't "permanently" remove the scar as you said but it does help 'break down' scar tissue. You'll have to read more for yourself if you want to know why and how it works.

And yes, in some cases like with adhesions, scar tissue comes back.

Thick. Next!

[Godhumor]

192. Had to go find where you pulled that excerpt

Turned out it was the entirety of the description of massage therapy.

But, you know, I went and looked. I couldn't find any clinical and empirical studies that show it breaks down scar tissue. I see a lot on calming, releasing pain, and temporarily increasing joint mobility, none of which I dispute.

And your article uses those fun words "reportedly" and "appears to" In other words they're reporting a claim not fact.

[underseasurveyor]

196. Here from burnsurgerydotorg website

http://www.burnsurgery.org/Modules/BurnWound%201/sect_IX.htm

Sorry I forgot to post the link.

[Godhumor]

202. Thanks.

Look it is clear we are on opposite sides on this issue and that is fine. I doubt we will reach a common agreement. I respect you having this long drawn out conversation, but I think it is time to start winding it down.

[uppityperson]

215. You deny something works, then shown proof you still disagree and want to leave. Hahaha

From that link :


". Scar massage

This approach is usually combined with several other modalities. Deep massage reportedly stretches fresh scar and breaks down the cement or matrix holding the scar contracted. Massage therapy appears most beneficial in preventing contractures. However, massage also mechanically stimulates fibroblast synthesis of collagen. Therefore, this approach must be combined with an anticollagen synthesis approach to be of significant benefit."

Since you continue to deny anything that you don't already believe in, I doubt you will reach a common agreement also.

You:No, it doesn't. Show me proof.
Us: Ok. Here is proof.
You: I don't agree. I'm taking my toys and going home now.
Us:

[uppityperson]

203. Range of motion improves after massage in children with burns: A pilot study

http://spiegelburnfoundation.com/images/RangeofMotionStudy.pdf

[easttexaslefty]

213. I didn't say that

I said, cross fiber friction helps the build up of scar tissue. Open a medical book.

[MattBaggins]

245. What medical books would you suggest for finding this?

[easttexaslefty]

280. How's this?

Br J Sports Med 2004;38:675-677 doi:10.1136/bjsm.2004.013573
Review
Cyriax physiotherapy for tennis elbow/lateral epicondylitis
 Authors
Abstract

Tennis elbow or lateral epicondylitis is one of the most common lesions of the arm with a well defined clinical presentation, which significantly impacts on the community. Many treatment approaches have been proposed to manage this condition. One is Cyriax physiotherapy. The effectiveness and reported effects of this intervention are reviewed.
tennis elbow lateral epicondylitis Cyriax physiotherapy Mill’s manipulation transverse friction
Tennis elbow (lateral epicondylitis) is one of the most common lesions of the arm. This disorder challenges the clinician daily, as it is an injury that is difficult to treat, is prone to recurrent bouts, and may last for several weeks or months. The average duration of a typical episode of tennis elbow is between six months and two years.1
It is a degenerative or failed healing tendon response characterised by the increased presence of fibroblasts, vascular hyperplasia, and disorganised collagen in the origin of the extensor carpi radialis brevis, the most commonly affected structure.2
It is generally a work related or sport related pain disorder with macroscopic and microscopic tears in the extensor carpi radialis brevis, usually caused by excessive quick, monotonous, repetitive eccentric contractions and gripping activities of the wrist.3,4 The dominant arm is commonly affected, with a prevalence of 1–3% in the general population, but this increases to 19% at 30–60 years of age and appears to be more long standing and severe in women.5,6
It has a well defined clinical presentation, the main complaints being pain and decreased grip strength, both of which may affect activities of daily living. Diagnosis is simple and can be confirmed by tests that reproduce the pain, such as palpation over the facet of the lateral epicondyle, resisted wrist extension, resisted middle finger extension, and passive wrist flexion.7
“Such a variety of treatment options suggests that the optimal treatment strategy is not known”
Although the signs and symptoms of tennis elbow are clear and its diagnosis is easy, to date no ideal treatment has emerged. A myriad of conservative treatments have been used. Over 40 different methods have been reported in the literature.8 These treatments have different theoretical mechanisms of action, but all have the same aim, to reduce pain and improve function. Such a variety of treatment options suggests that the optimal treatment strategy is not known, and more research is needed to discover the most effective treatment in patients with tennis elbow.
A common intervention is Cyriax physiotherapy. The purpose of this article is to describe its use in the treatment of tennis elbow and its effects.
CYRIAX PHYSIOTHERAPY

Cyriax and Cyriax9 claimed substantial success in treating tennis elbow using deep transverse friction (DTF) in combination with Mill’s manipulation, which is performed immediately after DTF. For it to be considered a Cyriax intervention, the two components must be used together in the order mentioned. Patients must follow the protocol three times a week for four weeks.9,10
Deep transverse friction
Although the word friction is technically incorrect and would be better replaced by “massage”, this name will be used in this article. DTF is a specific type of connective tissue massage applied precisely to the soft tissue structures such as tendons. It was developed in an empirical way by Cyriax and Cyriax and is currently used extensively in rehabilitation practice.11–15
It is vital that DTF be performed only at the exact site of the lesion, with the depth of friction tolerable to the patient.9,10,12,14,16 The effect is so localised that, unless the finger is applied to the exact site and friction given in the right direction, relief cannot be expected.9,10,14,15 DTF must be applied transversely to the specific tissue involved, unlike superficial massage given in the longitudinal direction parallel to the vessels, which enhances circulation and return of fluids.9 The therapist’s fingers and patient’s skin must move as a single unit, otherwise subcutaneous fascia could lead to blister formation or subcutaneous bruising.14
As a general guideline, DTF is applied for 10 minutes after the numbing effect has been achieved, every other day or at a minimum interval of 48 hours, because of the traumatic hyperaemia induced, to prepare the tendon for the manipulation.9,10,12,14,16 There is only empirical evidence to support the times suggested above. Unfortunately, the technique has developed a reputation for being very painful.15,17,18 However, pain during friction massage is usually the result of a wrong indication, a wrong technique, or an unaccustomed amount of pressure. If this form of massage is applied correctly, it will quickly result in an analgesic effect over the treated area and is not at all painful for the patient.9,10,14,16 On the other hand, treating clinicians claim this technique places considerable strain on their hands.3,4,12,13,19
There is very little scientific evidence on mode of action and effectiveness of DTF. Only a few studies exist, and more research is urgently needed. However, although the exact mode of action is not known, some theoretical explanations have been put forward. It has been hypothesised, with no scientific proof, that DTF has a local pain diminishing effect and results in better alignment of connective tissue fibrils.
It is a common clinical observation that application of DTF leads to immediate pain relief: the patient experiences a numbing effect during the session, and reassessment immediately after shows reduction in pain and increase in strength and mobility.15 A number of hypotheses to explain the pain relieving effect of DTF have been put forward.
Pain relief during and after DTF may be due to modulation of the nociceptive impulses at the level of the spinal cord: the “gate control theory”. The centripetal projection into the dorsal horn of the spinal cord from the nociceptive receptor system is inhibited by the concurrent activity of the mechanoreceptors located in the same tissues.16,20 According to Cyriax and Cyriax,9 DTF also leads to increased destruction of pain provoking metabolites, such as Lewis’s substances. This metabolite, if present in too high a concentration, causes ischaemia and pain. It has also been suggested that a 10 minute DTF treatment of a localised area may give rise to lasting peripheral disturbance of nerve tissue, with local anaesthetic effect.15 Another mechanism by which reduction in pain may be achieved is through diffuse noxious inhibitory controls, a pain suppression mechanism that releases endogenous opiates. The latter are inhibitory neurotransmitters which diminish the intensity of the pain transmitted to higher centres.20,21
In addition, the application of DTF can produce therapeutic movement by breaking down the strong cross links or adhesions that have been formed, softening the scar tissue and mobilising the cross links between the mutual collagen fibres and the adhesions between repairing connective tissue and surrounding tissues.14,16,20,22 Moreover clinicians claim, without support from clinical studies, that the rhythmical transverse stress of DTF stimulates fibre orientation with the result of enhancing tensile strength.14,15
Finally, DTF produces vasodilatation and increased blood flow to the area. This may facilitate the removal of chemical irritants and increase the transportation of endogenous opiates, resulting in a decrease in pain.14,16,20,22
Absolute contraindications to DTF are few. It is never applied to active infections, bursitis and disorders of nerve structures, ossification and calcification of the soft tissues, or active rheumatoid arthritis, and care is required if there is fragile skin or the patient is having anticoagulant treatment.9,10,14,15
DTF for tennis elbow is applied as follows.9,10 Position the patient comfortably with the elbow fully supinated and in 90° of flexion. Locate the anterolateral aspect of the lateral epicondyle (facet of the lateral epicondyle, where the extensor carpi radialis brevis inserts, the most common site of pain in patients with tennis elbow, as mentioned in the introduction), and identify the area of tenderness. Apply DTF with the side of the thumb tip, applying the pressure in a posterior direction on the teno-osseous junction. Maintain this pressure while imparting DTF in a direction towards your fingers, which should be positioned on the other side of the elbow for counter pressure. DTF is applied for 10 minutes after the numbing effect has been achieved, to prepare the tendon for Mill’s manipulation.
Mill’s manipulation
Mill’s manipulation is the most common manipulative technique used by physiotherapists.12,13,23 Cyriax and Cyriax9 state that it should be performed immediately after the DTF provided that the patient has a full range of passive elbow extension. If passive elbow extension is limited, the manipulative thrust will affect the elbow joint, rather than the common extensor tendon, possibly causing traumatic arthritis.9,10 It is defined as a passive movement performed at the end of range—that is, once all the slack has been taken up—and is a minimal amplitude, high velocity thrust.9,10 The aim of this technique, again without properly designed controlled studies to prove this, is to elongate the scar tissue by rupturing adhesions within the teno-oseous junction, making the area mobile and pain free.9,12,13,23
Mill’s manipulation for tennis elbow should be conducted as follows.9,10,23 Position the patient on a chair with a backrest and stand behind the patient. Support the patient’s arm under the crook of the elbow with the shoulder joint abducted to 90° and medially rotated. The forearm will automatically fall into pronation. Place the thumb of your other hand in the web space between the patient’s thumb and index finger and fully flex the patient’s wrist and pronate the forearm. Move the hand supporting the crook of the elbow on to the posterior surface of the elbow joint and, while maintaining full wrist flexion and pronation, extend the patient’s elbow until you feel that all the slack has been taken up in the tendon. Step sideways to stand behind the patient’s head, taking care to prevent the patient from leaning away either forwards or sideways, which would reduce the tension on the tendon. Apply a minimal amplitude, high velocity thrust by simultaneously side flexing your body away from your arms and pushing smartly downwards with the hand over the patient’s elbow.
Cyriax and Cyriax9 cautioned that, if poor manipulation is performed by failing to maintain full wrist flexion, the thrust is absorbed mainly by the elbow joint, potentially causing traumatic arthritis. Depending on the magnitude of the thrust, full wrist flexion probably does little to protect the joint from such a manipulation if this is a really serious consideration.
This manoeuvre is conducted once only at each treatment session because it is not a comfortable procedure for the patient, and the effects of treatment often become fully apparent over the following few days.9,10,23
Studies in which Cyriax physiotherapy for tennis elbow has been used
Computerised searches were performed using Medline (from 1966 to March 2004), Embase (from 1988 to March 2004), Cinahl (from 1982 to March 2004), Index to Chiropractic literature (from 1992 to March 2004), and Chirolars (from 1994 to March 2004) databases. Only English language publications were considered. The search terms “tennis elbow”, “lateral epicondylitis”, “Cyriax physiotherapy”, “treatment”, “management”, “physiotherapy”, “randomised control trials” were used individually or in various combinations. Other references identified from existing reviews and other papers cited in the publications were searched. Moreover, we tried to identify further citations from the reference sections of papers retrieved, by contacting experts in the field, and from the Cochrane Collaboration, an international network of experts who search journals for relevant citations, but we did not find any more studies. Unpublished reports and abstracts were not considered.
Only one study was found in which Cyriax physiotherapy had been used in the management of tennis elbow. Verhaar et al24 compared the effects of corticosteroid injections with Cyriax physiotherapy in treating patients with tennis elbow. The results showed that the corticosteroid injection was significantly more effective on the outcome measures (pain, function, grip strength, and global assessment) than Cyriax physiotherapy at the end of the treatment, but at the follow up one year after the end of treatment, there were no significant differences between the two treatment groups. This study is not helpful for practicing physiotherapists, because most do not use injections to manage this condition. It is better to compare Cyriax physiotherapy with other physiotherapy treatments in order to assess its effects. In two studies,4,19 only DTF was used to treat patients rather than all the components of Cyriax physiotherapy.

[MattBaggins]

282. Yes getting people to relax and move injured joints is sound medicine

but your own link states that "friction" is actually an incorrect term.

The original statement was about "cross fiber friction" being fact and that is is found in medical books. Outside of the massage community it doesn't seem to actually exist.

[uppityperson]

290. Physical Therapists use it also. It does "actually exist".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002936307#post214

[uppityperson]

214. Here. How about when a PT does it? Are physical therapists also Crap?

http://physicaltherapy.about.com/od/typesofphysicaltherapy/a/Scar-Tissue-Massage-And-Management.htm

Scar massage is a common method used to help remodel scar tissue that has developed in injured tissue. It is a treatment used in physical therapy after surgery, fracture, or soft tissue injury like sprains and strains. Scar massage is also known as scar mobilization.
(clip)
Sources:

Hertling, D. (2006). Management of common musculoskeletal disorders. (4th ed.). Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins

Kisner, C., & Colby, L. A. (1996). Therapeutic exercise: Foundations and techniques. (3 ed.). Philadelphia: FA Davis.

[uppityperson]

200. You answered my last question. "Can you do any of that or will you now try and deflect...?" Deflect.

http://www.amtamassage.org/infocenter/research_scientific-and-medical-research.html

Try again. I want you to realize and understand massage is not just for "i]"Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good are its tangible benefits. Beyond that is silliness."

I want you to comment that you were wrong that " CAM, scietifically speaking, is crap."

You wrote lies about AMTA and I want those retracted.

Finally, I want you to say why getting a prescription for medicine that is for "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" is fine yet massage therapy which has been proven to be so much more is, in your words "crap".

[Godhumor]

209. Not happening

1) AMTA have no scientific standing and I highly doubt they ever will. They earned their spot on Quack Watch.

2) I have not said anything anywhere on this thread about taking drugs instead of getting a massage for aches, mood or stiffness.

3) CAM is CAM because it cannot be accepted as conventional, as it fails scientific testing. Someone wants to feel good about themselves forty living holistically, that's fine. To me it is crap.

[uppityperson]

211. Deflect again. AMA have no scientific standing either since it, like AMTA is a professional organiza

organization. You wrote lies about this professional organization that need retracting. AMTA is like AMA, a professional organization for health care providers. Why would a professional org "earn their spot on QuackWatch" when it's been shown the "proof" you have is quackwatch's lies?

Here are your lies. Show me proof or retract them. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002936307#post96
There is no evidence-based reason to believe that massage can influence the course of any disease. Yet the American Massage Therapy Association (AMTA) Web site has claimed that that therapeutic massage can help with allergies, asthma, bronchitis, spastic colon, constipation, diarrhea, and sinusitis . The site also suggests that "massage is to the human body what a tune-up is to a car" and that "therapeutic massage can be part of your regular healthcare maintenance." And a 1997 AMTA booklet falsely states that massage can promote easier breathing, assist with removal of metabolic wastes, strengthen the immune system, and help prevent disease .

Yes, quackwatch says that. But show me where that is on the AMTA web site or retract your lies.

2. Since you say massage is for "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good", so are pain meds. Since massage is crap, then so are pain meds.

3. You are wrong. You keep saying this, but in this case, you are wrong.

http://spiegelburnfoundation.com/images/RangeofMotionStudy.pdf

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002936307#post205

[uppityperson]

216. FWIW, some of the stuff associated with mt and body work bugs me a LOT

They aren't "modalities" but techniques. Many tm'd "modalities" are simply massage therapy with a bit of a slant and you need to take a bunch of classes and pay money to say you do this "modality". Crystals, energy work, auras, none of these are "massage therapy" but are instead bs added to make the practitioner sound better and to make more money from those willing to be taken advantage of. They are a big reason insurance companies in places like Texas have told me, a preferred provider for all major and many minor ins co's in WA, "massage therapy is outside the scope of practice of a Licensed Massage Therapist". I will be happy when MT is standardized across state lines, like nursing did during my nursing career.

They are not "massage therapy". MT is rubbing, kneading,holding pressure, frictioning, range of motion, tapping/percussion, heat/cold applications, with different depths, speed, # of repetitions of the movements.

I made up a whole line of bs once, figuring that the way to make money in mt is to sell a product and tm some pattern of massage. I couldn't do it, can't take advantage of those willing to be taken advantage of. It was amusing to think about it, and rather saddening.

So. When I say massage therapy, I MEAN therapeutic massage. It is complementary medicine and as I've posted elsewhere, is having more scientific testing done to prove it.

Crystals though? If it works for someone, whatever, and I know where to refer you but they are not Massage Therapy.

[uppityperson]

205. Lung cancer "Complementary therapies have an increasingly important role in the control of symptoms

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17873179

Complementary therapies and integrative oncology in lung cancer: ACCP evidence-based clinical practice guidelines (2nd edition).
Cassileth BR, Deng GE, Gomez JE, Johnstone PA, Kumar N, Vickers AJ; American College of Chest Physicians.
Source
Laurance S. Rockefeller Chair in Integrative Medicine, Chief, Integrative Medicine Service, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, 1429 First Ave at Seventy-Fourth St, New York, NY 10021, USA. [e-mail]
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
This chapter aims to differentiate between "alternative" therapies, often promoted falsely as viable options to mainstream lung cancer treatment, and complementary therapies, adjunctive, effective techniques that treat symptoms associated with cancer and its mainstream treatment, and to describe the evidence base for use of complementary therapies. Methods and design: A multidisciplinary panel of experts in oncology and integrative medicine evaluated the evidence for complementary (not alternative) therapies in the care of patients with lung cancer. Because few complementary modalities are geared to patients with only a single cancer diagnosis, symptom-control research conducted with other groups of patients with cancer was also included. Data on complementary therapies such as acupuncture, massage therapy, mind-body therapies, herbs and other botanicals, and exercise were evaluated. Recommendations were based on the strength of evidence and the risk-to-benefit ratio.
RESULTS:
Patients with lung and other poor-outlook cancers are particularly vulnerable to heavily promoted claims for unproved or disproved "alternatives." Inquiring about patients' use of these therapies should be routine because these practices may be harmful and can delay or impair treatment. Mind-body modalities and massage therapy can reduce anxiety, mood disturbance, and chronic pain. Acupuncture assists the control of pain and other side effects and helps reduce levels of pain medication required. Trials of acupuncture for chemotherapy-induced neuropathy and postthoracotomy pain show promising results. Herbal products and other dietary supplements should be evaluated for side effects and potential interactions with chemotherapy and other medications.
CONCLUSIONS:
Complementary therapies have an increasingly important role in the control of symptoms associated with cancer and cancer treatment.

[uppityperson]

206. So you think pain medicine is crap also since it only helps with aches. Gotcha. thanks for clarifyin

[patrice]

36. As I understand: it will identify what is more valid and what is less valid & under what variables.

That's what research does, as in, The Patient Centered Outcomes RESEARCH Institute.

[Godhumor]

39. Exactly, so CAM disappears, but those that are proven effective become actual medical work

Chripractors were up in arm in CA, because their work cannot be scietifically proven, hence it was not included in the state mandates.

[patrice]

61. These are HUGE questions especially amongst the elderly. The answers MUST come from research that is

centered on the HUMANS receiving the treatments, not upon the institutions' agendas.

The elderly in particular (and I have seen a lot of this) CAN benefit MORE from having a pillow shifted than they can from receiving ANOTHER pill.

[Ian David]

52. It's about time, too. n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

58. Acupuncture has been used for 8000 years.

On millions of people. So there is feedback.

It's been tested in the real world far more than many other treatments.

[Godhumor]

77. Time is not indicative of effectiveness

At its heart acupuncture is about mysticism not science. It's the same as using prayer as therapy.

[uppityperson]

83. And there you show your prejudices or would it be ignorance?

[Godhumor]

118. Neither. How does acupuncture work without refering to a non-tangible energy flow?

Explain it in scientific terms.

My point is that it is mystical in base, the same way people who find prayers calms them says it actually heals.

[uppityperson]

123. Both. Educate yourself. Scientific terms? Ok. Try here for starts... Oh dang, "mystical" is missing.

Come on, such a scientific person such as yourself MUST know how to google. Since you obviously haven't read these, I'll go with ignorance. After you have read them, I'd say prejudice.

https://www.acufinder.com/Acupuncture+Information/Detail/How+does+acupuncture+work+

Western Explanation:

Definition of Acupuncture

Acupuncture is the stimulation of specific points located near or on the surface of the skin which have the ability to alter various biochemical and physiological conditions in order to achieve the desired effect.

Explanation of How Acupuncture Works

Acupuncture points are areas of designated electrical sensitivity. Inserting needles at these points stimulates various sensory receptors that, in turn, stimulate nerves that transmit impulses to the hypothalamic-pituitary system at the base of the brain.

The hypothalamus-pituitary glands are responsible for releasing neurotransmitters and endorphins, the body's natural pain-killing hormones. It is estimated that endorphins are 200 times more potent than morphine. Endorphins also play a big role in the functioning of the hormonal system. This is why acupuncture works well for back pain and arthritis and also for P.M.S. and infertility.

The substances released as a result of acupuncture not only relax the whole body, they regulate serotonin in the brain which plays a role in human and animal disposition. This is why depression is often treated with acupuncture.

Some of the physiological effects observed throughout the body include increased circulation, decreased inflammation, relief from pain, relief of muscle spasms and increased T-cell count which stimulates the immune system.

Or here:
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/acupuncture-to-relieve-pain

Acupuncture is based on the traditional Chinese teaching that energy, or qi (pronounced "chee&quot , courses through the body along channels called meridians; illness occurs when that flow is disrupted. Scientists are starting to identify some of the physiological mechanisms at work, and there's evidence that the insertion of needles into designated acupuncture points speeds the conduction of electromagnetic signals within the body. These signals may increase the flow of endorphins and other pain-relieving chemicals, as well as immune system cells, which aid healing.

Read more at Women's Health: http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/acupuncture-to-relieve-pain#ixzz20RU0Xfij

Or here:

http://www.howdoesacupuncturework.com/category/western-scientific-explanation/
Western Scientific Explanation
Currently, there is not one western scientific theory that collaboratively explains all of the physiological mechanisms underlying the effects of Acupuncture. This is because Acupuncture has a variety of therapeutic effects on the body thus the action must vary depending on the type of pathology. However it is proposed that acupuncture primarily produces its effects through regulating the nervous system. Regulation of the nervous system aids the activity of pain-killing biochemicals such as endorphins and immune system cells at specific sites in the body. In addition, studies have shown that acupuncture may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones. These affect the parts of the central nervous system related to sensation and involuntary body functions, such as immune reactions and processes that regulate a person’s blood pressure, blood flow, and body temperature.

In summary, scientists have deduced a number of theories from observing a number of individual clinical effects of acupuncture treatment. These theories and the observed clinical effects on which the theories are based can be summarised as the following:

Augmentation of Immunity Theory – Increased Immune Function & Resistance to Disease...(more)

[Godhumor]

153. Changing from Qi to electromagnetic field is not scientic terms

Let's just do this:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/?p=34

Controlled clinical trials of actual acupuncture (uncontrolled trials should only be considered preliminary and are never definitive) typically have three arms: a control group with no intervention or standard treatment, a sham-acupuncture group (needles are placed but in the “wrong” locations or not deep enough), and a real acupuncture group. Most of such trials, for any intervention including pain, nausea, addiction, and others, show no difference between the sham-acupuncture group and the acupuncture group. They typically do show improved outcome in both acupuncture groups over the no-intervention group, but this is typical of all clinical trials and is clearly due to placebo-type effects. Such comparisons should be considered unblinded because patients know if they were getting acupuncture (sham or real).

The lack of any advantage of real over sham acupuncture means that it does not matter where the needles are placed. This is completely consistent with the hypothesis that any perceived benefits from acupuncture are non-specific effects from the process of getting the treatment, and not due to any alleged specific effects of acupuncture. In other words, there is no evidence that acupuncture is manipulating chi or anything else, that the meridians have any basis in reality, or that the specific process of acupuncture makes any difference.

More recent trials have attempted to improve the blinded control of such trials by using acupuncture needles that are contained in an opaque sheath. The acupuncturist depresses a plunger, and neither they nor the patient knows if the needle is actually inserted. The pressure from the sheath itself would conceal any sensation from the needle going in. So far, such studies show no difference between those who received needle insertion and those who did not – supporting the conclusion that acupuncture has no detectable specific health effect.

Taken as a whole, the pattern of the acupuncture literature follows one with which scientists are very familiar: the more tightly controlled the study the smaller the effect, and the best controlled trials are negative. This pattern is highly predictive of a null-effect – that there is no actual effect from acupuncture.

[uppityperson]

195. That 1 word is all you take away?Try neurotransmitters, neurohormones, nerves, hypothalamic-pituitar

endorphins, serotonin, increased circulation, decreased inflammation, relief from pain, relief of muscle spasms and increased T-cell count which stimulates the immune system.

You have no desire to read or learn. You've made that point quite clear now. Goodbye.

[MattBaggins]

250. Lot's of nice medical terms there

but the nerve receptors activation and responses don't work the way acupuncturists think they do.

[MattBaggins]

249. How does that work if the needles don't cause pain and never overcome the receptor thresholds

to propagate a signal to the hypophysis

[uppityperson]

284. All sensory receptors are not pain receptors. If they are in you, I feel sorry because you must be

in agony. Every time you touch something you feel pain? poor guy

[MattBaggins]

291. Lol

[MattBaggins]

247. I'd call it Scientific Reasoning

but you call it what you want.

[scubadude]

182. Thousands of years of practice do not necessarily add up to mysticism.

When acupuncture was developed, the scientific method did not exist, so in order to explain it's effectiveness explanations were created with thought modes common to the times. This "Mysticism" is simply an outmoded explanation of how acupuncture works, nothing more.

There is a big drive amongst scientists and drug companies right now searching for medicines from the native peoples of the world. Of course the natives use mystical terms to explain actions that they know occur but don't have "scientific proof" for, as you describe it.
Native Americans for instance knew that the bark from the Willow tree could cure headaches. They explained it in mystical terms, yet scientists now know that the bark of willow trees contains salicylic acid, commonly known as Aspirin.

You are damning all lore based medicine because they haven't been empirically studied. Perhaps the reason for the lack of studies for at least some of these treatment modalities is the lack of the ability for drug companies to cash in on them.

Think about it.

Scuba

[Godhumor]

197. Except acupuncture had been study, and it doesn't work

Still on the mobile but one of my other post links to a summary of findings and repeated clinical trials have shown a) it makes no difference where you put a needle and b) if you hide a needle in a sheath and have an empty sheath as well there is no difference between being poked by the needle our just feeling the sensation of pressure from the empty sheath. Benefits are in the mind of the patient.

[scubadude]

257. Even if what you say is true, you still do not address the balance of my post.

Western science is still catching up with the witch doctors in some cases, and are spending big money to do so.

The fact is that our science has value, and also sees value in the medicine of primitive cultures, even when those cultures view the mode of action of their healing methods as magic.

Do you deny any of this?

Scuba

[Bolo Boffin]

177. "It's been tested in the real world far more than many other treatments."

Good, so there won't be any trouble designing double blind studies on its efficiency and submitting the results to peer-reviewed medical journals.

[Daemonaquila]

190. THIS

If it does real good, you can prove it. If you can't, then YOU pay for it if you want it, but you don't get to call it medicine.

[patrice]

69. The PATIENT CENTERED Outcomes Research Institute, i.e. the PP in the PPACA

http://www.pcori.org/

[ananda]

76. As far as CAM goes..

.. I really rely on my chiropractor when my back acts up.
It truly helps.

[fredamae]

81. Thats a real shame

Massage therapy lowers stress, BP, trips to Dr, use of Opiods/OTC's for relief...

My dr over 20 years ago kept telling me to get massage therapy-that it would Help and I refused to go because I believed alternative treatments/herbal therapies were bs---then I had a fall--I relented and went-I had no choice-I couldn't move.
I've been going since and I doubt I'd be any where nearly as mobile today as I am without it-not to mention I only need to see my dr annually for my physical. No pain pills, no OTC pain relief needed.
I've never billed my Ins because they've never recognized it for it's benefits.

Then one of the most widely known alternative herbal therapies is Medical Cannabis. It works.

Why else do InsCo's offer Resistance for it going mainstream? People don't use as many Pharma Drugs and Don't need as many trips to the ER/Dr's offices-Everyone But Big Pharma and InsCo's wins and Stays healthier, but Corp Profits drop.
I won't argue this industry doesn't need some review and perhaps reform-but they shouldn't have tossed the baby out with the bath water--unless they wanted to help these specific for profit industries. Plus fewer people use alternative medicines and treatment so the backlash is auto-diminished....

[Igel]

82. Don't call what isn't as though it were.

It has the "potential" to do this. Chortling over the health savings is premature. It's like complaining about the deficits in 2023 or how the budget surplus from 2006 was wasted.

The 2006 surplus was projected using a silly set of assumptions; 2023 doesn't exist, so no deficit for then exists.


On the other hand, I think it's likely that a lot of alternative medicine will be made purely private. Majorities don't like supporting things they don't like supporting, and when a government is the owner of an enterprise oddly it acts in one of two ways: It is entirely an owner, and shows as little regard for the public as any corporatist; or it forgets how to run an enterprise and makes it a political toy.

It'll be necessary to cut deficits and curtail spending. Since 10% of Medicaid folk account for something like 70% of the spending, that'll be cut--but since they're old or the very sick, politics will make that hard. Alt. medicine is a small part of the budget, but can be cut. And just as it was trumpeted from the rooftops when there was a 0.03% reduction in the deficit (woo-hoo! the deficit is dead!), so also the picayune savings from cutting that will be a big deal. It's like saying, "Look! A squirrel!" And then driving off with the armored car.

[Godhumor]

95. Until ACA truly hits in 2014, everything is potential

But, as the article stresses, following the protocol laid out and using CA as a current look, the potential is it will greatly reduce mandates including CAM.

And yes, I am sure private plans will pick up the slack on that fact.

[Deep13]

86. Finally!

Hard to believe we were required to subsidize 19th century quack remedies and other flaky shit through our insurance premiums.

[abelenkpe]

88. Health care plan at work covers

Chiropractors, acupuncture, and some alternative medicine. Also cosmetic surgery, LASIK, teeth whitening....

[JBoy]

89. In Canada, most provinces don't provide much if any coverage for this stuff

In general, the "medically necessary" rule applies. About 1/2 of provinces cover chiropractic. Workers Compensation Boards often cover chiropractic and acupuncture (likely under the "if it gets them back to work, let's cover it" principle).

Extended health benefits typically provided by employers to full-time employees will often cover some alternative treatments, but that varies considerably.

[eShirl]

91. no more coverage for medical marijuana?

[jody]

97. Replies re “alternative medicine” challenge acupuncture and chiropractic practices but IMO more harm

is done by drugs that have been rigorously tested to FDA standards yet proven later to be useless and in several instances having killed thousands of patients.

Has any DUer read a paper comparing the cost of ineffective alternative medicine with the cost of ineffective prescription drugs?

[nashville_brook]

204. Vioxx. Not just ineffective. Deadly.

[ohheckyeah]

99. Look through a Physician's

Desk Reference and check out how many drugs are being sold whose efficacy is virtually the same as placebos.

Here's some woo woo medicine for you:

They found that for every 10,000 high risk women treated with statins, the positive impact would be around 271 fewer cases of heart disease and 8 fewer cases of oesophageal cancer.

On the other side, there would also be 74 extra patients with liver dysfunction, 23 extra patients with acute renal failure, 307 with cataracts and 39 with a muscle weakness condition called myopathy.

[link:http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/20/us-statins-idUSTRE64J7B820100520|

So tell me, just how cost effective are statin drugs? I would have to say not very.

I personally don't use acupuncture, homeopathy or other "woo woo" stuff but I have gone to chiropractors and massage therapists who worked wonders on some of my back and neck problems.

You (a general you) can think that stuff is woo woo without being insulting - there's really no reason to patronize, insult and denigrate other people.....it does nothing for your argument except to make you look like a jerk.

[uppityperson]

104. +1000

[cpwm17]

272. Where did those statistics come from?

Last edited Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:51 AM - Edit history (1)

Was it through a rigorous scientific method? Was it published and verified by proper science? If yes, then you're supporting the skeptics.

That's all the skeptics want: good science to back up the claims. Well informed medical professionals then need to take into account these proper studies and treat their patients accordingly. Woo practitioners do not.

[ohheckyeah]

294. I thought I posted the link -

guess not. Here it is: Source

Seriously - do you think the western doctors know what the science and statistics are behind the medicines they prescribe? I can guarantee you for the most part they don't. The prescribe what the drug company reps give them samples for and what the reps are pushing. That's why drug companies spend millions in providing meals to doctor's offices. I take an estrogen made from yams and doctors kept trying to switch me to Premarin which is derived from horse urine. I refused. I asked the pharmacist WHY they keep pushing Premarin and the answer was "because they get a kickback." That's worse than woo, it's deliberate disregard for the health and well-being of a patient in favor of personal gain.

You are holding what you call "woo" to a different standard. And there's no excuse for being insulting. You may not agree with alternative medicine but calling it woo is a tactic used to insult people who have found relief with alternative medicine.

I personally think much of alternative medicine is worthless but if it helps someone, whether placebo effect or not, then I have no problem with them using alternative medicine. As I said, look through a Physician's Desk Reference and read the stats on medications and see how many are little, if any, better than placebos.

[hedgehog]

105. Coverage can be ofered even if it isn't required;

if insurance companies discover that their customers are happy with relatively cheap acupuncture v expensive surgery and pain clinics, look for acupuncture coverage to be offered.

[Godhumor]

115. Which is fine, it is being required to offer that was the issue n/t

[bbgrunt]

116. It's threads like this that I miss the UNREC feature for

the vehement certainty and zeal that some posters seem to have.

[progressivebydesign]

122. THANK YOU! I've been feeling as if I've wandered into the wrong site lately.

I've been here since 2000, and I can always spot these types of threads... and it seems we have many lately.

[patrice]

137. I can take the differences; it's the meanness of it all that is overwhelming. I wonder if there

aren't certain cadres who WANT to drive others away and make this place their own.

e.g. although I respect honest atheists, this particular issue would seem to be one that intolerant "rationalist" types, like (only) SOME atheists appear to be, would want to own.

JUST a hypothesis, everyone, so please don't assault me. I just hope that all of us, myself included, would become a little more aware of engaging in echo-babblery and honestly try to understand one another.

[Godhumor]

155. Proof vs. Belief is always a topic that stretches both sides

And I'm saying that as someone very much on the proof side of the ledger.

Oddly enough, though, I only get this passionate on topics regarding medicine and medicinal practice.

Thanks for jumping in though, I actually am enjoying the give and take in this thread quite a bit.

[patrice]

162. I taught Psychology, as Science, for high school. Human behavior and mental processes

are such that they present unique challenges to the nature of Scientific "proof", so I made sure that my students understood, in their study of psychological research, what the assets and limitations of scientific methodologies are. "Proof" is more technically referred to as support. Knowledge is very contextual and we have gotten into the habit of treating it as though it weren't.

Thomas R. Kuhn's book, linked above in my reply to Mineral Man, describes historically how the limitations inherent in the nature of proof lead to circular paradigms, with little or no new productivity, plus what are considered to be ir-relevant anomalies, which may be significant or not until, for whatever idiosyncratic reasons, something which is considered to be an anomaly MAY trigger a different perspective and then, depending upon reliable validations, perhaps a paradigm shift in explanatory theory.

Though I believe there are potentialities in both "proof" and "paradigm shift", I get nervous talking about this stuff in the context of medicine, and especially elder care, where there are also strong pressures, individual, social, and economic, to engage in convenient nostrums until what could be the most convenient nostrum of all, hospice care, becomes "unavoidable".

[FedUpWithIt All]

240. + + + + + + + n/t

[JDPriestly]

132. What is considered "alternative"?

Acupuncture? (I've had it, and it worked for me.)

Physical therapy? (I've had it, and it worked very well for me.)

[closeupready]

136. Trashing thread.

nt

[Godhumor]

144. Thanks for letting us know! n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

150. I find the so called skeptics adherence to their faith based beliefs

to be hilarious.

"Scientists" that apparently missed or just didn't understand the classes they sat through while getting their letters of learning from whatever diploma mill they are indebted to. "Learned men" that ignore evidence and dismiss knowledge that might harm their bread butterer or conflict with their personal prejudices.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

[patrice]

156. All of us need to free ourselves and then try to collaborate on how to proceed. And I do mean "need"

because solutions are becoming more and more necessary and creative solutions less and less frequent.

[Egalitarian Thug]

269. Exactly. n/t

[cpwm17]

217. Faith-based science is an oxymoron

A treatment has to stand the scrutiny of rigorous scientific testing or it shouldn't be administered by a medical professional. How can that be wrong?

Liberals can be just as anti-science as conservatives.

[Egalitarian Thug]

268. You're absolutely right, but this has nothing to do with liberal or conservative.

My reply is about the professional skeptics and their dim-witted followers. The people that are paid to find an out, to block, ridicule, or otherwise obfuscate the questions, and those that don't know the difference. Actual scientists know that, above all, they don't know. That's why you go into science.

Too often we so-called scientists observe something that we cannot explain and instead of trying to understand it, just declare it insignificant and ignore it. Once this ignorance has gained consensus, further experimentation proceeds from a faulty premise and is inevitably wrong. Believing that we have found The Answers has held up scientific progress as much as any religious doctrine, especially in the fields of healing. Now, throw in the profit motive and it's no wonder that the rest of the world has left us behind.

[Godhumor]

158. I am going home and stepping out for a bit. Will be on to check replies late tonight

Not abandoning the thread for anyone who asks, "Oh, where did that fool go?"

edit to add: Love that, on a topic like this, we've made it to 159 without a single hide. Really enjoying the back and forth.

[sagat]

161. Good.

.

[4th law of robotics]

174. Good.

That stuff is cheap anyway. You can buy your own magnets if you want. Or crystals. Or powdered ginger. Or whatever.

[Daemonaquila]

186. Fine by me.

Not all snake oil is medicine just because some people believe in it. While I'll feel bad that some few good practitioners may be caught in this cut, I'd love to see chiropractic care bulldozed off the map, among other things. I've seen much more harm than good done by this bunch of mostly-quacks.

[bhikkhu]

199. I'm happy to see it won't subsidize expensive quackery

If a medicine or procedure doesn't actually work, it shouldn't be covered. And that lying to people about the effectiveness of bogus medicines and procedures makes them feel better, thats still not good enough.

[limpyhobbler]

259. We should allow a little bit of coverage in this area simply to admit we don't know everything.

It may help some people by placebo effect. And that is still helping.

[emsimon33]

261. Chiropractic and acupuncture are NOT "pseudoscientific health care"

If anything is pseudoscientific health care, it is allopathic medicine which focuses on illness rather than health.

Further, such medicine as chiropractic and acupuncture are far less expensive and harmful than allopathic medicine.

Chinese medicine has a far more impressive research base than allopathic medicine which puts profits before health.

" And since you and I pay for CAM coverage through increased premiums, it will be an economic benefit to us all." The benefit to us all would be if more people used alternative medicine rather than allopathic medicine. Using alternative medicine and adopting a healthier lifestyle would also have a significant economic benefit.

[MattBaggins]

279. There is no such thing as Allopathic medicine

[cpwm17]

281. "Allopathic Medicine" is woo talk coined by a homeopath

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopathic_medicine

Allopathic medicine refers to the practice of conventional medicine that uses pharmacologically active agents or physical interventions to treat or suppress symptoms or pathophysiologic processes of diseases or conditions. It was coined by Samuel Hahnemann (1755–1843), a homeopath, in 1810. Although "allopathic medicine" was rejected as a term by mainstream physicians, it was adopted by alternative medicine advocates to refer pejoratively to conventional medicine.

Allopathic medicine often refers to "the broad category of medical practice that is sometimes called Western medicine, biomedicine, evidence-based medicine, or modern medicine"

Here's some fun with woo:

[4th law of robotics]

289. Healthier life style yes, no to everything else

Western medicine is based on what has been tested.

Traditional medicine is based on superstition.

Occasionally some traditional medicine will be tested and verified and become real medicine. But you cannot assume that says anything about the bulk of traditional cures.

[Tsiyu]

271. I'm amused and bored at the same time

I should note, I worked in hospitals eight+ years, licensed RCP (Respiratory Care Practitioner) and was busy with lots of disease and death. And sometimes people got better, too.

My amusement - as usual - is with the die-hard self-styled "scientists." They fucking know everything.

Had you asked a similar group of "professionals" in 1850 whether they knew all there was to know, they would have acted insulted that you even suggested such a thing. "Of course we know more than anyone and should be trusted to manage your health care needs! WE have gone to school, conducted experiments and we only rely on the latest research!"

Today we laugh at their primitive methods. Many years from now, people will laugh at our primitive methods.

The body is not like a fucking car. Open the hood and have a look see. Pour in the right fluid, tinker with a valve and it's good to go.

Example: Working in pediatrics, we learned about 'Failure to Thrive.' One of the cures? Skin contact, massage. See, there is some "woo" at work ( not really woo - but not fully understood by the Medical Luddites - my own term for those who are entrenched in conventional medical attitude ) between the skin and the body's ability to process nutrition and develop! Why would that connection not carry over into adulthood, for example, making massage not merely a "relaxer" but a way to help the body develop immunity and thrive?

This is only one example of the mysteries of the human body. We don't fucking know it all and we never will.

I am increasingly bored by those whose sole meaning in life comes from trying to make everyone else feel "unscientific." They jump on threads like this as if they are saving the universe.

Advice: Get a life. Open your mind. Walk down here with the rest of us for five minutes.

That is all.

Carry on....



Link:
http://www.childrenshospital.vanderbilt.org/interior.php?mid=7002

http://www.livestrong.com/article/72120-effect-human-contact-newborn-babies/

[arely staircase]

301. i suffer from chronic body thetans

will my e-meter and auditing sessions still be covered?

[MineralMan]

305. Yes, under the pseudo-religion clause.

[arely staircase]

309. down with OT III

yeah you know me