It's this simple - George Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon Martin

[LynneSin]

Stand Your Ground laws are suppose to protect those being stalked.

Trayvon Martin had every right to be in the neighborhood - he was staying with his father at his girlfriend's house.

Zimmerman is the one that noticed Martin walking in the neighborhood. He's the one that called 911 to tell them about Martin walking in the neighborhood. And he was the one that ignored what 911 told him to do which was to leave Martin alone and let the cops deal with it.

Zimmerman at any time could have gotten into his vehicle and driven away. He would have been safe, he would have been free and Martin would still be alive.

Zimmerman choose to keep following Martin. To me that defines what a stalker is!

And to me the ONLY person that could claim 'Stand your Ground' is Martin - he was being stalked and had every right to defend himself.

If Zimmerman had taken the advice of the 911 operator none of this mess would have happened.

[byeya]

1. I haven't commented on this very sad episode but this is 100% correct: Zimmerman was stalking

and after his talk with the 911 operator, he knew he was stalking and persisted in this behavior.
There's no "stand your ground" that I can see from what's been written and Martin was in the right
to defend himself against a larger and an aggressive person who was confronting him.

[HooptieWagon]

2. Yes, stalking is following in a theatening manner.

Obviously, Trayvon felt threatened enough he felt the need to defend himself. SYG applies to Trayvon, not Zimmerman.

[uponit7771]

3. Zman then chased him with a gun

[LynneSin]

5. If I thought a man was chasing me with a gun

I would do everything I could to stay alive.

If that's not 'Stand Your Ground' qualified I don't know what is

[slackmaster]

10. Are you of the school that Zimmerman was brandishing the weapon while walking?

I haven't seen any information to support that theory.

[GoneOffShore]

32. Doesn't matter whether Martin saw a weapon or not.

He was being pursued by an unknown person with an unknown motive and so the "Stand Your Ground" doctrine would have applied more to his defensive posture than to Zimmerman's.

[pacalo]

4. This case is all about common sense. Everything that happened after Zimmerman

ignore the 911 dispatcher's advice is his fault.

[louis-t]

6. I still have not had my question answered: Zimmerman said

he was returning to his truck or had returned to his truck and the kid circled back and confronted him. How close were they to his truck? It seems that this guy's story is not consistent.

[uppityperson]

7. Here is a good summary, WP blog...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/did-george-zimmerman-try-to-get-away-with-murder/2012/07/09/gJQA6E4UYW_blog.html

[Baitball Blogger]

8. It sounds like this is the direction the lead prosecutor is taking.

[slackmaster]

9. The defense will admit that Zimmerman was following Travon, but lost sight of him and broke off...

..the pursuit. Some time later (even if that is only seconds or tens of seconds) Trayvon came out of the shadows and attacked Zimmerman while he was walking toward his vehicle. So the story will be that the "stalking" (and they will not allow it to be characterized that way if they can prevent it) had ended and Zimmerman no longer posed a threat. That is clear from the staged re-enactment video.

Zimmerman at any time could have gotten into his vehicle and driven away.

The defense is going to claim that Zimmerman was in the process of doing just that, or that he planned to sit in his vehicle and wait for the PD.

Zimmerman's version has plenty of inconsistency that will be exploited by the prosecution. They may be able to pull off a conviction on manslaughter, but convincing the jury of malice aforethought (required for a murder conviction) will be very difficult even if Zimmerman's claim that he was attacked without provocation during a second encounter falls apart.

[uppityperson]

28. Are you of the school that Trayvon came out of the shadows and attacked Zimmerman?

I haven't seen any information to support that theory. Only a liar's "re-creation" of what he said happened.

[slackmaster]

33. No. I believe the defense will claim an interval of disengagement...

...Rather than one contiguous encounter. Trayvon will be portrayed as the aggressor in the second encounter.

If there was only one encounter, Zimmerman loses. With two encounters as portrayed in the video, he could be acquitted.

[uppityperson]

34. Which do you believe?

[slackmaster]

38. I believe Zimmerman is morally responsible for a needless death because he started the confrontation

...and missed numerous opportunities to end it.

HTH

[uppityperson]

39. thank you

[hfojvt]

11. Trayvon's actions would be a clear abuse of SYG

Just imagine some white guy feeling threatened by a black guy following him.

Given the example of Trayvon, are you then gonna say the white guy is right to feel threatened and shoot the guy following him, just because he felt threatened?

Sorry, but I'd rather not live in a society where people shoot each other or beat the crap out of each other just for being followed.

Nor do I think it is wrong for a neighborhood watch person to follow somebody that they think is suspicious.

In fact, I just got robbed over the weekend. So I wish somebody had been around to follow, or even shoot, the apparently worthless pieces of crap who stole from me.

[DevonRex]

13. The follower was the guy with the fucking GUN!

He can't even defend himself from a fucking gun?

[slackmaster]

15. How did he know that Zimmerman had a gun?

When did he make that discovery?

[hfojvt]

18. usually you defend yourself from a gun

by putting your hands up and saying 'please don't shoot me'. Punching a guy with a gun is more likely to get you shot unless you knock them out or grab the gun. Taking a big chance either way, when the armed person might easily have no intention of shooting.

Point is that if "being followed" is seen as a justification for Trayvon beating the crap out of Zimmerman then it can just as easily be used as a justification for Trayvon, had he been armed, to have shot Zimmerman. That is the argument being made, because Trayvon felt threatened, he is free to attack.

Well, then the same argument would apply for an armed white guy being followed by a black guy. To feel threatened, and blow that guy away and claim he was "standing his ground". Is that really a path we want to walk down?

So the argument here is

being followed = serious threat allowing Trayvon to stand his ground
and
getting his nose broken and being pummelled = no threat at all, not allowing Zimmerman to stand his ground. I guess because he could have slithered away on his back, no doubt leaving a thick layer of slime as he went.

[Daalalou]

37. Trayvon didn't beat the crap out of Zimmerman

Nor did he pummel him. From the very beginning, what never made sense to me was Zimmerman's claim that he was badly beaten by Trayvon and had no choice but to shoot, but didn't go to a hospital that night.

As more evidence has come out, it's become clearer that a "beating" or "pummeling" never happened:

1) The only injury to Trayvon's hands was a single 1/4" abrasion on one finger. He also had none of Zimmerman's blood or DNA on his hands.
2) Zimmerman's head injuries, as his own doctor reported, were superficial and there was no head trauma.
3)His doctor said that his nose was likely broken, but it was a minor break, and no X-rays were taken.
4) The witness who said Trayvon was punching Zimmerman MMA style has recanted that testimony.

It sounds like, at most, that Trayvon hit him once in the nose. The rest of their scuffle until the gunshot was fired was probably them grappling with each other.

And furthermore, we have only Zimmerman's less-than-trustworthy word that Trayvon attacked. It's true that Trayvon had no wounds that indicate Zimmerman hit him, but that doesn't mean Zimmerman didn't initiate physical contact. He could have grabbed Trayvon, pulled his weapon, pushed him, or cornered him--all actions that might make Trayvon think his only option was to hit the guy to save himself.

Can that be proven? I don't know. But again, the only evidence otherwise is the word of Zimmerman, who has shown himself to be a liar multiple times.

[DevonRex]

16. AND why do you correlate Trayvon to the robbers?

He wasn't doing anything but walking. Just like you. He was the innocent victim. Just like you. He was unarmed just like you. Yet you relate to Zimmerman? The armed killer? Why the fuck is that?

[hfojvt]

20. for a couple of reasons - anecdotally

One day at work these guys were playing basketball in the gym. Presumably not robbers, just there innocently playing basketball. Another couple was there with a toddler. Toddler, toddled on out of the gym, as toddlers do, and parents went after her.

Next thing you know, all the basketball players are gone, run out the back door of the gym.

Along with the mother's purse.

Another day I came around the corner and saw this guy walking away from my front porch. Well, what the hell was he doing? Just walking by and decided to check the door to see if it was unlocked and he could steal somiething.

So some people, even when they are walking home from the store, or playing basketball, will have their eyes open for an opportunity.

In fact, that was how I got robbed this weekend. Like an idiot, I forgot to shut my car trunk (either that or I slammed it shut and it did not latch). Some person, or people, just happened by, probably doing something else and said to themselves "Hey look some idiot left his trunk open, let's look through it and see if there's anything I/we want, and hey here's a can of tennis balls that I have no use for, but since they are here, why don't I just toss them across the street just for the hell of it?"

I recovered two tennis balls and the lid to the can. And another bag with some bumperstickers (of all things) and a computer keyboard was left on the corner, apparently too heavy to carry, or something.

Again, sometimes people are not "just walking" but have their eyes open to opportunity. I don't know that Trayvon would be that way, but I don't know that he wouldn't. Both he and Zimmerman are strangers to me.

I relate to Zimmerman because he was trying to help. Trying to keep his neighbors from getting robbed, trying to make sure the punks don't get away with it. He could have just gone to Target and not be on trial today, but perhaps Trayvon could have just answered a few questions or even told him to fuck off (but not thrown any punches) and still be alive today.

[DevonRex]

22. That is totally fucked-up reasoning, man. It makes NO sense. Nt

[ljm2002]

27. "perhaps Trayvon could have just answered a few questions"...

Last edited Mon Jul 9, 2012, 10:54 PM - Edit history (1)

...W.T.F.?????

WHAT QUESTIONS?????

WHEN did Zimmerman ask Trayvon any questions? There is no indication that Zimmerman ever tried to initiate a conversation -- not even his own various versions of events gives a hint that he ever tried, or ever had any intention of trying to TALK to Trayvon.

No, Zimmerman pursued him. We can hear him huffing and puffing on the 911 call. He never called out, nothing except mumbling about how "they" "always get away".

Zimmerman is the one who could have prevented this. Trayvon may not have used the best judgment, I don't know because I don't know what transpired in the event when they came to blows -- but then again, Trayvon was just walking home from the store minding his own business when some asshole with a gun decided he looked suspicious and decided to chase him down.

By the way: if all you had stolen was some tennis balls and a keyboard, from your unlocked trunk, then I am even more appalled at your statement in a previous post that you wish there had been someone around to watch them or even shoot them.

It is consistent with the mind set you are displaying in regard to this case, however.

[uppityperson]

29. "Martin" is Trayvon. Do you mean Zimmerman?

I agree that wishing someone shot for stealing tennis balls and a keyboard is fucked up.

[ljm2002]

35. Oops! I will correct it, thx. n/t

[TheMadMonk]

40. Trying to help? NO! Self appointed wannabe. Neighbourhood Watch...

...wanted nothing to do with him and he was not a member. Even if he had been a member, his gun was in direct contravention of that organisation's rules and regulations.

IIRC Zimmerman was also a constant pain in the arse to emergency services, with a long history of making frivolous 911 calls.

He hated the police before he fell in love with them.

Zimmerman's story is more changable than the weather in Melbourne. (All four season's in an afternoon.)

Oh yeah, and in his self appointed role not only may he not go armed, he is not permitted to be at all proactive. No matter how right his reasons, Zimmerman's actions were flat out wrong, and in some circumstances outright criminal, culminating in the loss of an innocent (more or less) life.

Trayvon's story remains remarkably consistent:- He went down to the corner shop for refreshments. He came home dead.

[ljm2002]

23. Wow that's a rather bizarre mental process on display...

Last edited Mon Jul 9, 2012, 10:53 PM - Edit history (1)

...every statement you make here is twisted. But the one about being robbed just takes the cake. So you had an unfortunate experience. I get it, it made you angry. It would piss me off too.

On the other hand, there is no indication that Trayvon was doing or about to do anything wrong. None whatsoever. This was a young man walking home from the store, and Zimmerman decided he was "suspicious". Next thing you know, they're having fisticuffs, and you think it's A-Okay that Zimmerman (the pursuer) shot Trayvon (the pursued) dead -- it's okay by you, because someone else completely, somewhere else completely, recently robbed you and they are obviously scum and well, someone's gotta pay.

You seem to wish there was someone like George Zimmerman around your neighborhood to administer vigilante justice, regardless of whether they get the real perp or not. That'll teach 'em!

That is some twisted shit right there.

[DevonRex]

25. The reasoning got worse, too. I'm speechless. Nt

[uppityperson]

30. Trayvon Martin. George Zimmerman.

[DevonRex]

26. Your TRUNK was robbed of tennis balls and you want the person SHOT???

Oh my god. You found 2 of the 4 tennis balls and the old keyboard that had been in your OPEN trunk. Yet you wish someone had been there to even shoot the person who took the can of balls and the old keyboard after you left your trunk open.

[uppityperson]

31. I'd rather not live in a society where someone is shot for taking a couple tennis balls. Good grief.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. There's an attitude in the South

It states that once a black man shows signs of violence he is to be punished, even if it is to defend himself.

It goes back to the idea of controlling black people as if they are farm animals. They are expected to take the lash from their betters and know their place as inferiors. This attitude is behind a lot of the outrage by the Right that Treyvon fought back. He wasn't supposed to fight back. He was supposed to be a "good boy" and "respectful".

I wish every racist could wake up one morning and find out they turned black in their sleep.

[LynneSin]

17. Kinda like that episode of MASH

Some injured soldier comes into MASH hospital and tells Hawkeye he doesn't want any of that 'black blood' given to him. So to teach the soldier a lesson, while he was sleeping they make his skin dark and said 'whoopsie we gave you the wrong blood'

It was one of those good episode of MASH

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. I remember that one.

They also mentioned the doctor who discovered blood types to allow transfusions bled to death because the hospital refused to treat him after an auto accident. It was a White Only hospital and he was the wrong color.

[AngryOldDem]

14. Absolutely!

And I don't know why this point isn't made time and again when discussing this case.

If anyone had a right to "stand your ground," it was Trayvon. He had no way of knowing what Zimmerman was trailing him for, and was perfectly within his rights to defend himself, IMHO.

I also wonder why the fact that the cops told Zimmerman to back off, and Zimmerman didn't, isn't made more of, either.

[hack89]

19. All true but irrelevent

This is not a SYG case - Zimmerman will make a standard self defense defense. Under Florida self defense law, there are two circumstances where the aggressor retains the right to use lethal force in self defense.

776.041?Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.041.html

He will plead SYG just to see if he can get it past the judge, but judging from his comments and the leaked evidence, I bet he will use either (or perhaps both) sections a and b of the above law as his defense.

I don't know if he will get away with it but it is not so clear cut legally as so many here believe.

Just so it is clear, I think he is guilty and should go prison. I am just pointing out that the reality of what the law actually says is often not what you would think.

[mother earth]

24. Yep, K & R. nt

[Incitatus]

36. But "these assholes always get away" nt