If you're one of the people posting here saying democrats are the problem.

[onecaliberal]

They as in both parties do it. Just STOP already. Open your eyes, turn off the Russian propaganda machine also know as the main stream media and get some facts. Democracy is the inferno you see before us.
Republicans would be running around screaming with their hair on fire locking up everyone with a D behind their name. This is NOT normal, no other president has done this. You don't give your family a top security clearance and profit from being in the office.

[liberal N proud]

1. There is no valid argument for Democrats being even part of the problem

The republicans and Russians own this cluster from front to end.

[Hortensis]

56. Right. Our party works to protect all Americans

and our constitution and republic. Anyone who doubted that might just imagine where our nation would be if the Democratic Party abandoned our historic principles the way the Republican party abandoned conservatism when it was taken over by malignant ultra-right billionaires.

In 2016 we planned a full-on multipronged attack on coal country poverty, much the way FDR's Tennessee Valley Authority once revolutionized life in that region. This was, of course, against intense opposition from the Republican Party. ("Wipe out malaria? MORE Democratic big-government interference? Where does it stop?!&quot

[leftstreet]

2. Where are people saying 'both parties do it'

And what is 'it?'

[beachbum bob]

4. the only people who say "both parties do it" are found in the media circles and often apologist

for conservatives

I know of no democrat who ever sad "both parties do it"...

[emulatorloo]

16. Stein folk, the Bobs over at Reddit, a couple of those "too big to fail" Trolls who had

several glorious years manipulating Democratic Underground by constantly attacking Democrats and never saying a cross word about republicans.

[calimary]

23. Indeed. That damn false equivalency crap.

It's NOT true. Both sides AREN'T the same. Both sides DON'T do it, or don't do it to the same extent.

My best friend is there now. "They're ALL the same! They're ALL crooks! They're ALL liars!"

I'm sorry. That is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT true!!!

I suspect those who lean CON-ways do that to minimize their own side's sins. I think the reasoning is - if you can somehow go WAY broad and WAY generalized and blur all the lines and the edges and the images, then everybody basically starts looking the same, regardless of team.

[emulatorloo]

30. I'll admit I had my "both sides are the same" period. Then Reagan's 2nd term happened

and I quickly realized how ridiculous I was for buying that crap.

[Skidmore]

55. +1 nt

[onecaliberal]

5. Served on a jury and have seen comments...

[leftstreet]

7. Comments such as...? n/t

[randr]

6. "It" is the bone thrown to take your eye off the prize

[randr]

3. False equivalency

It does not matter that both sides do it. What matters is the facts in front of our faces no matter who it involves.

[Else You Are Mad]

8. So now all the MSM are Russian propagandists?

Seriously, the Russians are not controlling the media. It is more harmful to attribute everything to the Russians than all of the Russian interference combined.

[mhw]

9. ? Russians aren't controlling the media?

24/7 love fest for trump since the day he announced his campaign.
Tens of thousands of Russian paid hacks to drive social media. And they're still engaged today.
RT for starters. Hosting anyone to drive the message away from solidarity.

Media indeed had a Russian influence and they still do.

[DrDan]

10. absurd

[mhw]

11. Sure. If you missed the last 2 years of media coverage

Can't believe how anyone can say Russia has no influence in our media.
Perhaps this should be narrowed down to specific media.
Good luck finding one venue that wasn't influenced by Russia's meddling.

Absurd is an apt description of this conversation.
Bye

[DrDan]

12. "influence" vs "controlling" are two different things, my friend

and being more specific about which "media" you are referring to would be appropriate

[Else You Are Mad]

14. You are wrong.

The MSM does have many faults to it, but you really need to understand that the Russians do not exert ANY control over the American media. If they did, there would be no mention of the Trump/Russian collusion.

The Russians had little influence on the election of Trump. Most people that voted for Trump did not watch RT. Further, if you believe the Russians hacked and released Podesta's emails, then it was what Hillary's own campaign said and did that injured the election and not the Russians. The Russians just released, unaltered, the emails.

[mhw]

34. Wrong you are. Meh..

[DefenseLawyer]

15. Our party lost to Donald Trump, that's a problem.

We can and should improve. Suggesting that is not the same as saying "there's no difference between the parties". Nonetheless we can improve.

[onecaliberal]

17. No our party actually won by more than 3 million votes

Going forward more people will also vote in at least 3 states where the court has struck down voter restrictions. Those people overwhelmingly vote for democratic candidates. They are all states won by the maggot.

[DefenseLawyer]

20. Sure, we're perfect. It's everyone else. We're awesome

That's what we have supermajorities in Congress and control of so many governorships and state legislatures. Our perfection is stunning. We shouldn't change a thing.

[onecaliberal]

21. You're awesome at attributing words to people they NEVER said.

[OrwellwasRight]

26. +1

Yes, let's change nothing!

[onecaliberal]

27. Again, aside from yourself who said that. I don't usually argue with walls.

[OrwellwasRight]

31. I wasn't posting to you.

And, ergo, I wasn't arguing with you. So I care not a whit for or about your implication that I am "a wall." In fact, please leave me alone. I was talking to someone else.

[emulatorloo]

33. Don't be disingenuous. You just endorsed/+1'd a post that was directed at onecalilberal by

DefenseLawyer. Which to remind you was a post that put dishonestly words in OCL's mouth he didn't say or endorse.

+1 is DU's way of saying me too I agree.

[OrwellwasRight]

37. I know what I endorsed.

I know what +1 means. And yes it means I agree with that poster. And agreeing with that poster has ZERO to with putting words in anyone's mouth. You are making a logical leap of the size of the Pacific Ocean.

Here's how this works as a conversation:

Person A: "I think some Democrats are saying Democrats are the problem. I think that's wrong"

Person B: "Huh. What I think is some Democrats don't want to be introspective about our party and look at our own problems. I think that is wrong. "

Person C: "I agree with Person A."

Person A: "Huh."

End of conversation.

See? People can think different things without putting words in other people's mouths. They aren't even directly contradicting each other. They are just pointing out what they think rather than condemning what other people think.

Or you can get all fight-y and defensive and pissed that someone thinks something different than you do. Feel free to pursue your option. I think it is silly.

[emulatorloo]

32. Y'all sure are good at putting words in other folk's mouths.

Maybe you two should stop that. I can only imagine how irritated you'd feel if someone did the same to you.

[OrwellwasRight]

35. Facts please.

Please post what words I have accused someone else of saying. If you can't, then please stop saying I am "good at putting words in other folk's mouths."

I was unaware there was a new rule on DU that you are not allowed to agree with other posters without being accused of putting words in other people's mouths.

I in fact didn't accuse anyone of saying anything. What I did do was say what I thought--although it was in a facetious manner, so maybe you didn't pick up on that -- I don't know. So let me spell it out for you: I think we should be spending time on self-improvement.

If you want to disagree with me, then disagree with ME. Directly. Don't accuse me of doing something I didn't do.

[demmiblue]

36. I call it the Mensch syndrome by proxy. n/t

[emulatorloo]

40. I call putting words in other folks mouths FoxNews syndrome

Because misquotation, fabricated quotations, etc are the bread and butter of Fox and right wing media.

Of course no one here at DU endorses those tactics on Fox, Breitbart, etc. All DU'ers know the score.

[emulatorloo]

39. "Yes, Let's Change Nothing!"

Is that your opinion? "Let's change nothing?" No. Yr attributing it to the OP.

"So let me spell it out for you: I think we should be spending time on self-improvement."

Let me spell it out for you:

- Nowhere did the OP say or imply the Dem Party shouldn't improve.

- Nowhere did OP say or imply "Sure, we're perfect. It's everyone else. We're awesome"

- Nowhere did the OP say or imply "Yes, let's change nothing."

You write: "If you want to disagree with me, then disagree with ME. Directly. Don't accuse me of doing something I didn't do"

I doubt we disagree on much ideologically. Certainly not on the idea that the Dem party needs change.

However, I disagree with the rhetorical tactic you and DefenseLawyer used against the OP.

I really dislike misquotations, fabricated quotations, all all related rhetorical tactics.

It is a tactic used constantly by rightwing media to smear Dems,liberals, progressives.

I'm sure you'be seen that and I am sure it bothers you as much as it bothers all of us at DU.

There's several things in the OP that he actually says that are very open criticism. Idea that the MSM is controlled by Russia. That's something he did say. That's fair game for criticism. Things that he didn't say aren't.

[OrwellwasRight]

44. Where did I attribute that to the OP?

Where did I mention the OP? I was replying to someone whose point of view I agreed with. You are certainly bending over backwards to pretend that I was putting words in your mouth. You wish I was that interested in you. I'm so not. And you've just proved why.

You are only interested in throwing tantrums and misquoting others and being a victim. I am interested in none of that. That is why I will always agree with people who post about how DU should be a place working to improve the party and I will never agree people who only want to put other Democrats down those who allegedly have stated "Democrats are the problem." I haven't met those people, but I wouldn't waste time on them either.

[emulatorloo]

60. "Yes, Lets Change Nothing!" "Where did I mention the OP?"

Sorry that dog won't hunt. You didn't post "Yes, Lets Change Nothing!" in a vacuum.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- "I was replying to someone whose point of view I agreed with."

Agreed. You were relying to Defense Lawyer's post which fabricated a quotation by onecaliberal. And shoved it in ocl's mouth.

DefenceLawyer: "Sure, we're perfect. It's everyone else. We're awesome"

You helpfully added another fabricated quotation: "Yes, Lets Change Nothing!"

To help DL with his project.

To repeat myself, you didn't post "Yes, Lets Change Nothing!" in a vacuum. It was posted in context, which I've just described.

----------------------------

-- "That is why I will always agree with people who post about how DU should be a place working to improve the party"

The vast majority of DU'ers agree that the Democratic Party should be improved. As do I.

So here's to improving the Dem Party

-------------------------------

-- "You are certainly bending over backwards to pretend that I was putting words in your mouth."

Actually no.

I never said/wrote you were putting words into my mouth in any of my posts to you.

My point was that you and DefenseLawyer were putting words into >>onecaliberal's<< mouth.

My posts are pretty clear to those who can read them objectively.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- "You are only interested in throwing tantrums and misquoting others and being a victim."

- No I'm pretty calm. I'm discussing rhetorical choices.
- I don't throw tantrums and I don't misquote others.
- If I make a mistake and get called out on it, I don't pretend I'm a victim.

You're basically accusing me of things you yourself did. if you get bored sometime, maybe google "Psychological Projection."

--------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting.
--------------

Of course, I'm not saying you did this deliberately. It is an unconscious process, we're all human so we're all fallible.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to this:

-- "You wish I was that interested in you. I'm so not. And you've just proved why."

DU's just another message board on the internet. It is a great place to talk about policy and strategize about getting our message out IRL.

I doubt very few people come here for validation. That's what real life is for.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- "I haven't met those people (who allegedly have stated "Democrats are the problem&quot , but I wouldn't waste time on them either.

I've seen those types at reddit. However for all I know they could be Trump Trolls pretending to be progressives. Like you I haven't met one in real life.

"but I wouldn't waste time on them either. "

Yet another thing you and I agree on.


----------

Hope you have a great Sunday.

[JHan]

61. Yep...+++ the OP specifically stated...

that anyone who thinks the Democratic *Is THE problem* should open their eyes, the OP never argued that the Democratic party doesn't need to evolve or improve in areas.

It was that simple and yet...

[OrwellwasRight]

63. OMG, you are still on this?

How many times must I repeat that I was speaking for myself and only to the post I was replying to. I was not replying to the OP, nor speaking to the OP, nor of the OP, nor to you, nor to any other poster whom you feel you must defend. I was saying something positive. You have turned it into something painful.

I always cheer when someone on DU is brave enough to say it is ourselves we should be looking at and improving. So when I see someone else who agrees with me that our focus should be on self-improvement, I call it out positively because it is what I think. It attributes nothing to anyone except for my values and my belief that this task is what DU should be dedicated to.

But that's right YOU know better what I mean when I post because what, you have ESP? Because you have placed a chip in my head that can read my thoughts? Because you are omniscient?

I think you are none of those things. I do think you have an overly high opinion of your ability to read my mind.

You did indeed say that I put words in other folk's mouths. Please see your Reply Title in Post #32 "Y'all sure are good at putting words in other folk's mouths." (to me), Reply Title on Post #40 "I call putting words in other folks mouths FoxNews syndrome" (to someone else about me); your whole post #39, ending with "Things that he didn't say aren't," which capped off several paragraph of accusing me of saying that people said things they didn't say.

By the way, when I write, the words I say are not "fabricated quotations." They are actual words, and they will become "actual quotations," when someone else repeats them in an unaltered form. I would offer vocabulary lessons if I didn't find interacting with you so odious.

Please go harass and bully someone else. I am so tired of this nonsense.

[FakeNoose]

18. Our party lost because certain voting machines in certain states were hacked

We have to stop the hacking of voting machines immediately.

We have to demonstrate what was done, and prevent it from ever happening again. Stop using the hacked voting machines (one certain brand) and maybe even go back to paper ballots if it can't be fixed before the next election.

I'm talking about what happened in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. It's possible that Florida was also hacked. It only took a few backwater counties that nobody was looking at to get a few votes changed, and it swung those 3 or 4 states from Blue to Red. That's all it took to create all this misery for our country.

I'm not saying that Russians did this, but certainly right-wing conservatives did it and they may have hired Russians for their expertise. In case you're not aware of this, Russian programmers are extremely capable of hacking our computers and networks. They are probably the best in world and they've been hacking us for years.

It must be stopped.

[TheFrenchRazor]

42. spot on; the machines must go. dems are fools indeed to trust them. nt

[pnwmom]

46. We actually lost to Donald Trump + Guiliani/NY FBI + Russians,

with an assist by Jill Stein and anyone else who said progressives shouldn't vote for Hillary.

[DefenseLawyer]

50. So I've heard.

Is that what happened in the midterms? I need to keep my excuses straight.

[pnwmom]

51. The Russians were probably pushing their FB propaganda in the midterms, too.

Having a trial run.

The other factor, of course, was gerrymandering. Democrats got millions more votes in the House in the midterms, as I'm sure you know -- but they got fewer seats because of gerrymandering.

[Cirque du So-What]

19. I need to get out more, as I'm not seeing it

If I did, I would mock, deride, and alert on it.

[demmiblue]

24. Some people like to make shite up because they thrive on the drama.

Generally speaking, of course.

[benpollard]

22. Low information voters act like both parties are the same

... and often, the MSM runs stories that pretend both parties are just as bad. But if you look at details, Republicans are far, far worse.

[vkkv]

25. I see no one saying that Dems are "the problem", exclusively, as you suggest.

There are idiots in every cross section of society: liars, braggers, finger-pointing losers, cheaters, thieves, bigots, racists and worse.

Don't be one of those.

[OrwellwasRight]

28. Saying Democrats have problems

is not the same as saying Democrats are the problem.

[Else You Are Mad]

38. Exactly.

But, some people just cannot accept the fact that their side could -- and should -- shoulder some of the blame and therefore blame everyone and everything else. It is not saying that all Democrats are wrong, it is merely expressing concern for the reason we lost.

[OrwellwasRight]

45. Thank you!

There are apparently people in this thread who will got to any length to say that focusing on improving our own party is somehow a horrible thing to do.

[Else You Are Mad]

47. I think it has to do with...

Hero worship. Such people cannot accept the fact that their idol failed and it was that person's fault. So they cannot address the reasons why such happened.

[OrwellwasRight]

48. What you say is so sensible.

I wish others here could be so sensible. I wish that DUers could just stop attacking other. To be honest, I think it is worse now than during the primaries, and that is saying something. Blind hero-worship and refusal to learn and improve won't win us any elections. And the moderators and administrators don't seem to be doing anything about the craziness and the anger-filled rants directed at fellow DUers.

[Else You Are Mad]

49. Well, it is a very small minority.

I have nothing against the administrators and mods they are great. I have been on quite a few juries against these few types that yell at everyone. That said, most DUers are not like that.

[Squinch]

52. You need to catch up. This conversation has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

This conversation is about the fact that the pundits who say, "Both sides do it," are wrong and nothing that this administration does can be viewed as being remotely normal.

If you need to have (yet more) conversations about the terribleness of the Hillary voter, perhaps you should start another OP. Or better yet, yell it at some clouds.

[Else You Are Mad]

54. Wrong.

I was responding to a comment to the OP not the OP itself. Please refer to how the person I replied to agreed with me for evidence I was on topic.

Thanks.

[Squinch]

58. Lol. No. It just means there are two of you.

[DesertRat]

29. Anyone posting here that Dems are the problem

would be violating the TOS and wouldn't be around for long.

[judesedit]

41. We must unite our majority to defeat these greedy immoral dangerous assholes

C'mon folks. We have more things in common to bind us. Let's revel in that truth. Keep remembering that they are trying very hard to tear our solidarity apart. Laugh at them as we join hands and hearts. We are the majority.

[XRubicon]

43. Thank you (nt)

[betsuni]

53. K&R

[Heartstrings]

57. Complacency is part of the "problem"

way too many chose to "sit this election out" on their couches....they own some responsibility for this fiasco we've been left with....

[Else You Are Mad]

59. I believe...

Those that sat the election out because they were told Hillary was going to win or because they didn't like Hillary have the most fault in Trump being elected.

[Heartstrings]

62. For the most part, I agree....

they have a maximum amount of culpability, along with the apparently ignorant crowd that voted party over common sense and morality.