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So today's thing is Tim Kaine bashing. Wonder what tomorrow will bring.
Oh what a tangled web we weave...
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hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Their hypocrisy needs to be called out and if that offends some people here that is just too bad.
QC
(26,371 posts)all those years of telling us we had to vote for homophobes and advocates for the banks and fossil fuel industries and supporters of "right to work" if they had a D on their jerseys.
Situational ethics, I guess.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)At least that is my point in the past few days.
QC
(26,371 posts)back when we were being accused of demanding ponies. Were you here when all that was going on?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)Basically, our wanting legal equality was compared to a bratty little girl demanding a pony for her birthday. Over and over and over. (A few more creative souls compared us to Veruca Salt.) Equality was our "little pet issue" and if we kept talking about it we would cause the loss of whichever election was coming up at the time.
It was an ugly time--consider yourself fortunate to have missed it.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Vesper
(229 posts)who thought that states should decide on this issue and not the federal government, which does not promote equality in the least.
There were many lies about candidates and their positions on this matter, outright lies about one, and some interesting massaging of the other. Most LGBTQ folks were not having it and calling that out, with receipts. So one wonders where this was going on, who bought that fiction and who was selling it.
QC
(26,371 posts)
Vesper
(229 posts)I didn't really pay much attention to screen names and I have no way of knowing anyone's sexual orientation.
I most came here for a quick perusal of breaking news, general discussion and the pro-choice page which gathered the news that isn't covered in the MSM.
So, I don't honestly know what you're talking about or what that mocking emoji is all about.
sheshe2
(84,074 posts)Thank you for standing with us Justin. Stronger Together.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Response to hrmjustin (Reply #11)
Jake Stern This message was self-deleted by its author.
JenniferJuniper
(4,517 posts)the same people who told you we had to vote for homophobes are now saying women's civil rights are non-negotiable?
Really?
Vesper
(229 posts)There is nothing sensible or pragmatic about 20 week bans.
No, as much situational ethics as some are using to justify this nonsensical and deadly choice to support a man whose bills are extreme right wing ideology, this is not what is going on here. Asserting non verifiable stuff like this does little to make the support of Mello remotely ethical regardless of what fictional situation is being created to defend this past weeks flagrant divisiveness.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)But its worth mentioning that much of Europe has laws around the 20-24 week mark with later exceptions on health grounds, and over there abortion is basically a non-issue. It's treated as a private medical matter for women, and not some big public debate.
Vesper
(229 posts)on birth control, Plan B and abortion in the weeks prior to that either, and that their procedures are covered. That is not the case in the US, where many women are forced to wait til they have the money to pay out of pocket for the procedure and the hoops they have to jump through to get to the procedure. This includes travel and room and board for up to 3 days, ultrasounds and counseling etc.
That's why abortion is a non issue there, and why it's abhorrent to seek to impose these bans that target poor women and women of color.
Bans on time, cost issues, forcing women to travel and delay etc.
This is why Mello is such a problem he cheerfully led the charge to make it difficult for women in a country that leads the "industrial west" in maternal mortality, and where those mortality rates are several folds greater for poor women and women of color. This is why so many women are appalled by this. Even those who supported Sanders are taken aback by the support of such a person. I don't understand the calculus behind this or why he's digging his heels in, this is deeply offensive to those of us who follow this issue closely and are paying attention.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)On the Sanders endorsement though, I just don't see any difference between this and the countless other occasions when we've been told we have to support southern Dems because they're better than their GOP opponents. It's not an endorsement that makes me feel good, but neither did any of those other times when people insisted on pragmatism over principle. I can see the logic of 'the lesser of two evils' though, and although I don't like it I don't consider it any more offensive than any of the endless list of other examples.
Vesper
(229 posts)This is not about "better than GOP counterparts" this guy is literally the same as the GOP. These are life and death issues, literally.
It's a BAD endorsement. It must be nice to be able to have esoteric discussions about this and armchair debates, but this man is literally dangerous to the lives of women.
This isn't the lesser of two evils, it's the same evil, possibly a worse one. They both had the stamp of approval from the anti-choice group Nebraska Right to Life, but only Mello has proposed these extremist bills.
I'm guessing that had you a uterus, it might be a bit more of a practical concern to you (and if you were in Omaha).
These are not political games and this man pushes for legislation that harms women, that doctors keep telling us is dangerous, and it's a REAL issue, not just a debate topic.
Here is an article that will hopefully help you to see why this is vastly different than the scenarios you mentioned. It's LITERALLY life and death.
http://netnebraska.org/article/news/maternal-mortality-nebraska-hits-rural-women-black-women-hardest
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100312/Nebraska-ranks-40th-on-Amnesty-Internationals-maternal-mortality-ranking.aspx
(I added another, this is a vital issue and the more you know the better!)
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)What a truly ridiculous thing to say. This guy is a catholic and so pro-life but states he won't ever do anything to interfere with a woman's right to choose. He also sponsored a compromise bill that makes ultrasounds available, seemingly to prevent the GOP pushing ahead with a bill to make it mandatory.
If you feel like he's not progressive enough for you then good, because he's not progressive enough for me either. If we're going to start holding candidates to those standards then it better be applied without exception, because I'm damned if I'm going to hold my nose for other peoples candidates while they insist on perfection for any they happen to not like.
Vesper
(229 posts)It is truly ridiculous to say that he is not the same as the GOP. I do not care what his religion is, or what his personal beliefs are about his own body, this man sought to harm women legislatively.
I do not care what he states, he has ALREADY show us what he is. In case you are not aware, there is literally zero reason for any bill to make ultrasounds available, what was the compromise? That was literally the status quo before and after, that was an utterly pointless bill and this spin on it is even more ridiculous than ignoring the man's literal legislative history and right wing policy positions. His one act was utterly meaningless, while his 20 week ban that he sponsored speaks volumes, as does his anti telemedicine thing.
I offered links to explain the heinousness of his positions, I will include another.
He is NOT progressive period, he is literally more regressive than his GOP opponent, since he has introduced right wing legislation himself, and signed a letter in support of Keystone.
This is not about holding out for perfection, this is literally sounding the alarm that this man is dangerous, dishonest and WORSE than the GOP.
I will be damned if I stay silent as the purists who demanded perfection now excuse actual right wingers who sought to kill women, violate their access to healthcare in the most sadistic ways possible and who demand that w not call out the blatant hupicrisy, misogyny and wrong headed actions here.
Women's basic human rights are not a play thing, and if it is something that any purist is not rigid on, we shall all learn why and how it is a stupidness idea to piss off women. We are the base, we are the backbone, we are the actual workforce, it is OUR marches that some are taking credit for who have not listened at all. We told you all that we were fighting for our basic rights and the right to choice was not negotiable.
I guess being this tone deaf and this blatant about the reality of that supposed "purity" while denying the facts to support a white man who is a literal right winger working to kill women and make them suffer is a fail in outreach, but does unify us against this toxic strain of faux progressivism.
We see and hear what is going on, and we are not pleased with the hypocrisy or the condescension from the folks who seek to marginalized women, POC and the actual working class. Do not underestimate us.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)The compromise in a lot of those states (in the face lets not forget of us getting absolutely battered in terms of representation since 2010) is giving a little ground to try and prevent much worse GOP bills passing into law. If the only way to stop a mandatory ultrasound bill is to compromise on a voluntary ultrasound bill, then is that the wrong thing to do?
I don't like his politics, and I certainly don't like religion in any form, but we're a party that has supported and endorsed numerous centre-right and pro-life Dem candidates in both the past and present. The DNC do it routinely, Pelosi does it, Reid does it, hell Hillary nominated a VP candidate who is personally pro-life and has a pretty shitty pro-choice record in his past Governership.
So what is it that makes you actually angry? Is it that Mello is being run as a Democrat (in which case I completely understand your anger) or is it that Bernie supported him and it feels hypocritical to you (in which case, join the club as the hypocrisy is flying thick and deep in both directions)?
He has introduced bills that propose a 20 week BAN and against telemedicine (here is the link I forgot which explains why these right wing attacks on choice are a bad idea medically, from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists: http://www.acog.org/Resources-And-Publications/Committee-Opinions/Committee-on-Health-Care-for-Underserved-Women/Increasing-Access-to-Abortion)
He introduced these bills, he sponsored them, there was no compromise. It wasn't the only way ... at all. He isn't compromising here, and this is totally ridiculous to focus deeply on something that was literally pointless because these things are already being done, and ignoring the 20 week ban and the attacks on telemedicine, which rural Nebraskans really need. It's a wrong thing to do, because he actively promoted the right wing agenda, against common sense, the doctors warnings etc. DOING WHAT HE DID IS THE WRONG THING TO DO.
I could care less about his politics or his religion, I care about his actions, they are bad, they are scary, they are wrong, they are dangerous. I don't care about what he's saying now, when we already know he is on the wrong side of important issues. Pro Keystone, pro abortion bans, anti-access to healthcare.
There are people who are against abortion, who cite their religion and who still do not actively try to kill women while ignoring the doctors who keep telling them how dangerous these anti-choice measures are and why. We are not a party that supports right wing extremists who on their own sponsor legislation that seeks to harm women, disrupt care and seeks to target doctors. We are not a party that thinks that people who create this legislation is okay. Please tell me where the DNC, Pelosi or any of these anti-abortion dems are sponsoring legislation like this man did.
Kaine has never to my knowledge sought to ban abortion, prevent doctors from accessing patients or anything else. Evidence of his record matching this right wing extremist would be good. Also, looking at the actual bills I keep mentioning and that keep being ignored to spin on an ultrasound thing that was literally pointless, since state laws, professional ones and federal ones ALREADY require informed consent for women, including the right to view ultrasounds and have their questions answered.
Where does the DNC or any Democrat routinely sponsor Abortion bans? No matter how shitty one might think Hillary's VP might have been, he's never done that, but this right winger has. Why so much bile upon Kaine but so much blind defense of this guy for something he did not do?
What about violating women's basic human rights makes me so angry? Are you serious? This is a man who sought to attack women at their most vulnerable, who targets poor women in rural areas, who thinks forcing his religion on women, regardless of its effect on their lives, their bodies, their health and their being alive, and he's being touted as a "true progressive" by a man who thinks he gets to decide what that is?
I have issues with Mello, AND with Bernie, this is abhorrent. And he keeps saying how we must not be rigid on protecting women from death, from harassment, from sadistic abuse, that their lives don't matter. He's betraying his every stump speech, and the women who supported him and the progressives who thought he was one of us.
This is hypocrisy, and stop this both siderism. The purity folks were attacking Hillary for working with Republicans on actual compromise, are insisting that this extreme right winger who compromised not at all needs to be defended, poorly, but defended as potshots are taken at the party, it's candidate and her supporters.
Why aren't YOU angry? You know this man is not a progressive and you're working so hard to defend him by picking and choosing arguments. His "compromise" on ultrasound wasn't one, and his own record on abortion bans, telemedicine and his gung ho support of Keystone are things that were used as purity tests for Hillary, why is this okay, simply because it's Bernie?
Mello is no progressive, and Bernie should know that, that he's happy to compromise on such basic things to call this regressive a "true progressive" should be drawing scorn and criticism from anyone who is progressive, instead there are all these lame defenses (and I'm sorry, but ignoring his actual record to echo the spin on the ultra sound, as if that's the worst thing he's done, is lame). The hypocrisy here is thick and deep, but it's unidirectional.
I don't care which of the three candidates anyone favor, or even if anyone was on the Lessig or Webb trains, there is literally no excuse for NOT calling this the wrong headed, utterly hypocritical SNAFU that it truly is.
Bernie was wrong, he made a mistake, and he's doubling down on it, to promote a regressive right winger who was in favor of Keystone and against women's basic human rights, there is no defense of that. Get angry. Demand more. Hold people accountable, EVERYONE, not just the people you don't like. Please take a moment to read the ACOG position paper, which will hopefully explain to you the reason for the anger at Bernie and the people who are brushing aside what Mello has stood for and why it is insupportable.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)I AM angry. I'm angry that we're a party that supposedly stands for all sorts of wonderful progressive things, yet repeatedly discards them whenever it's politically convenient. I'm fucking FURIOUS that we're fine to be associated with people like Mello and Kaine and many, many others who wear the progressive badge while not believing a damn word of it personally. If you don't believe a woman has the right to control her own body, then you're no fucking ally of mine, and I really don't give a damn whether you paper over that by claiming 'oh but I won't do anything to restrict that right'.
What i'm also sick and tired of however is the rampant hypocrisy of people using progressive issues to score points against their political rivals. The reality is that the Democratic party supports some pro-life politicians and supporters. Either fight it or don't, but don't give me this crap about how x politician is suddenly horrible for doing the exact same thing pretty much every other senior member of our party does.
Can't both sides use that term to describe the other here? Sure seems that way to me.
William769
(55,151 posts)
sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)We're long over due for the required questioning Chelsea's parentage... You know that is required quarterly on RW sites.
FWIW, she looks just like her mom is my position on that, then I try to post pics of HRC at that age.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)logging onto a different DU, then, because that's different from what I've been seeing during the past year.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
JI7
(89,289 posts)
Kingofalldems
(38,518 posts)
Grassy Knoll
(10,118 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,518 posts)Purity BS. Politics is not religion.
melman
(7,681 posts)It's just pointing out how utterly full of shit and phony all the outrage threads of the last few days have been.
Cha
(298,087 posts)backatcha, melman
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)
emulatorloo
(44,275 posts)Kaine's got a very solid pro-choice voting record.
http://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/50772/tim-kaine#.WP1Ur2nyvIU
I don't think my friend Ken did his research before he posted that. Happens to all of us sometimes I think.
BainsBane
(53,137 posts)and principle and justice easily discarded. Or perhaps not. Perhaps the principle always was increased wealth for white male bourgeoisie at the expense of the majority? Maybe undermining equal rights was the goal from the start?
At any rate, they've done us a favor in revealing themselves.
emulatorloo
(44,275 posts)And can be just wrong about some things.
So they twist themselves into pretzels in order maintain their notion that Bernie is infallible. It causes them to take positions that they've never taken before.
It's weird to me that he would effusively praise Mello as a progressive given Mello's anti-choice record. That seems like what we used to call a gaffe. A simple ""vote for Mello" would have been sufficient.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)BainsBane
(53,137 posts)We've also gotten some insight into the Trump supporter mindset as we've seen people make one false claim after another and ignore evidence to promote their narrow concerns.
But it's all good. People have revealed themselves as willing to do anything to justify undermining equal rights. So much for economic justice. Turns out that was never meant ply to the majority of Americans. Now we know why there has been so much concern about winning over RW white men.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Both sides need to learn to let it go.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I do not accept. I do not approve.
I've fought shit like this all my life.
I'll continue to fight shit like this until I die.
I'll never "let it go". I'll never be silent. NEVER.
Hear me roar, in numbers too big to ignore!
William769
(55,151 posts)And yes as much as DU hates to see this, there are still sides. We just happen to be on the winning side. 
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts) elias7
(4,037 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
Vesper
(229 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)That's the irony.
BainsBane
(53,137 posts)Bernie. If they want the status of Blue Dog, I have no problem with it.
Calculating
(2,957 posts)I would never support a anti-cannabis zealot like Tim Kaine. Shows a severe lack of critical thinking, or that he's simply corrupt and bought out by corporate interests.
http://marijuanapolitics.com/tim-kaine-marijuana-pain-hillarys-prohibitionist-vp-pick/
Tim Kaine’s regressive and repressive views and votes on marijuana recently earned him into a “hall of shame” over at StopTheDrugWar.com. Just last month, they consolidated NORML’s congressional scorecard, and displayed the names of 26 current US senators to whom they have given an “F” rating on marijuana prohibition. Unsurprisingly, only four were Democrats; unfortunately, one of those four prohibitionists is Tim Kaine. He recently said:
I wouldn’t vote for a law at the federal or state level that would decriminalize marijuana.
BainsBane
(53,137 posts)and that is the charge being made.
Cha
(298,087 posts)snip//
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-tim-kaine-abortion-20161008-snap-story.html
miyazaki
(2,262 posts)Maybe we're in between rounds right now, don't know.
BainsBane
(53,137 posts)claiming they are the same as Mello because they didn't have abortions.
We've already had licence plates and day care centers described as identical to an anti-choice voting record.
Vesper
(229 posts)BainsBane
(53,137 posts)not day care centers. Promoting adoption is the same as sponsoring and voting for anti-choice legislation, which really isn't bad at all.
BainsBane
(53,137 posts)but not a very skilled attempt at it.
R B Garr
(17,020 posts)Clinton or Kaine over Sanders own actions is deplorable.
BainsBane
(53,137 posts)I see it as the exposure of the long game, undermining rights of women in order to promote increased wealth and privilege for white men. Bernie may just be their opportunity to do what they've wanted to for a very long time.
R B Garr
(17,020 posts)to it. Your posts on this subject show how dishonest the efforts are to smear Kaine. I heard Gingrich today confirming that Trump has created an alternate universe, so it's obvious that was an agreed upon goal for the GOP. Looks like we might have an alternate reality problem of our own.
Vesper
(229 posts)BainsBane
(53,137 posts)Jesus.
Vesper
(229 posts)doing things with her life and just yelling about progressive sounding things online etc.
A lot of people who thought her degrees and her everything is due to her parents alone, not requiring anything from her.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)Primary...ever.
