Men On The Supreme Court Steps Are Shouting Angrily About THIS?

[kpete]

http://www.upworthy.com/dudes-for-the-love-of-god-just-stop

[Wounded Bear]

1. Funny how, on the right,

their fiercest struggles always seem to wrap around their right to be assholes.

I'm in Washington, one of the blue states (on this map as well as on the voting maps). so I haven't been aware that the problem was that bad.

Good to see progress on this one.

[xxqqqzme]

57. Same here - only in CA.

I knew there was a discrepancy. I also had no idea it was so pervasive.

[seabeyond]

2. texas here. wow. nt

[Ezlivin]

28. Are you really surprised?

I live in the Metroplex. My representatives are slack-jawed, open-mouth-breathing Republicans who seem hell-bent on denying any science that doesn't fit with their biblically-driven agenda, stripping all remaining rights from women, minorities and the infirm, and inserting god into every goddamned thing.

Hell, I'm surprised that they allow women to vote in this state. But maybe the women in this area don't care: They're busy on their iPhone while steering a black Escalade down the drawbridge leading to their gated community.

[seabeyond]

29. insurance pisses me off. i take care of all money and bills but insurance

i hear ya.... lol. i bet my area is worse than your, lmao.

[tru]

65. try property tax

On my house, up over 1000% in ten years with no improvements to the house and supposedly a 60% increase in the house value, but I'm dubious about the latter. That's what letting gov employed union people retire in their forties with 80% of their salary as a pension and nearly free healthcare forever does to the rest of us.

[lunatica]

67. You sound la lot ike a Republican

We're not anti-union here in case you hadn't noticed.

[seabeyond]

3. think further, i do not see why. i paid more having a baby when insured than when i paid cash

when i had a good insurance. i got all kinds of discounts paying cash for my first baby, when our insurance didnt cover it. with all the deductibles i paid more cash having my second baby two years later than the first.

and i am paying more in insurance coverage.

how the fuck does that work.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. Easy, they figure if you can afford two kids you can afford to pay them more.

[tru]

66. good idea

There should be a tax and higher charges for having more than two kids. End the tax deduction for over two as well.

[lunatica]

68. Wow. Just wow.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

70. That's true if you want to do something about overpopulation.

Otherwise it sucks.

[HALO141]

27. Cash is cheaper.

Hospitals spend a ridiculous number of man-hours coding and filling out forms in order to get reimbursed by insurance companies. (Medicare is even worse.) The more bills that get paid in cash, the fewer people they have to hire to chase down the money.

And as far as "discrimination" goes, it's just a simple fact that women spend much more in health care than men do. The disparity in insurance has much more to do with who they have to pay more claims for than some misogynistic oppression. Don't get me wrong... Insurance companies suck out loud. I just believe they overcharge anyone and everyone just as much as they can regardless of sex.

[seabeyond]

30. ok. i get the cash is easier. and it is still bullshit that with insurance i paid more than

paying cash. i mean literally, i paid more of my cash, in deductables, than i did paying all in cash.

[pnwmom]

33. Hospitals charge cash-paying patients higher rates for the same procedures

than patients who have insurance companies with negotiated discounts with the hospital.

[girl gone mad]

34. It's the opposite in many places.

They used to do this more often, but states started writing laws to stop them. Now it is generally cheaper to pay cash, cheaper even than insurance co-pays in many cases. A lot of people will better off paying the stupid mandate tax and continuing to pay out of pocket than buying a crappy "bronze tier" insurance policy, especially since large bills would bankrupt you in either case.

[BiggJawn]

38. Cardiac Ablation in Indiana

"Cash price"= $72,000
Insurance paid and hospital accepted= $28,000.
Patient out-of-pocket= $750.

So if I go in without insurance, I pretty much would have to take out a 30-year mortgage on my life to pay for it.

And Dentistry is just as bad. Dentists will accept $75 for a procedure from insurance, but if you're a cash customer, your price is $250.

[snappyturtle]

56. This has happened to me at the dentist's office. The office gal told me that it is

too bad I don't have insurance....because....insurance companies pay less for the
same procedure! I don't get it. Why do people say that those of us without insurance
raise the costs of care? How can that be?

[Little Star]

4. Wow! Just Wow!

[Control-Z]

5. Women in Arkansas

and Wyoming ought to be pissed as hell. Well, and women in what looks to be 38 other states. I count 10 blue?

[freshwest]

6. Dose uppity overedumicated wimmins ought to be at home, barefoot and preggers!

Dens thez don't needs no insurance!

[liberalhistorian]

7. They're seriously chanting that

"real women pay for their own birth control", and with straight faces? Well, then, how about "real" men step up to the plate in regards to birth control? How about we tell them that "real men pay for their own Viagra", since most insurance covers it and I'm sure some of these so-called "men" have taken advantage of that?

[Demeter]

8. NO! The right messaging is "Real Men Pay For Their Children's Support"

as there are so many phonies out there....

[Iggo]

10. Tell them, "It's your birth control, too, you stupid fuck."

Or some such...

[sabrina 1]

26. Men don't share the responsibility of birth control?

I thought they were the party of personal responsibility ...

[Zoeisright]

37. Just a bunch of losers with penis envy.

Men like that usually have very tiny, um, members, and therefore hate women.

[permatex]

9. What a bunch of RW morons.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Gender is the most significant determinant of lifetime medical costs.

Obesity? Smoking? Trivial.

Men spend $268000 on medical care in their lifetime. Because of their longer lifespan, women spend $361000 - 34% more.

Other things being equal, the men in the 41 states not colored blue in the left image should expect their medical costs to go up 17% and the women down 17%.

[Grown2Hate]

12. But then wouldn't women be paying premiums for longer (since they are living longer)?

Why should they be paying higher premiums? Why not just the SAME premiums for longer? : :

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. Women's medical costs are 34% more, but their lives are only about 5% longer.

I support HCR and I think that removing gender as a rating criteria wasn't unjustified, mostly for political reasons.

But the disparate rates
a) are based on real costs
b) can't be equalized without raising the rates for men a bunch. The result is passing the costs of longer life onto those who don't.

The status quo might not have been sensible, but it's difficult to argue that it was unfair. The same rationale that makes 19 year old men's auto insurance more expensive, made women's medical insurance more expensive.

[kenfrequed]

17. Simple numerical problems

Using those two stats together actually is problematic becuase doing so does not factor in what age the majority of medical problems start. It also passively ignores pregnancy.

Start the clock around 18 years of age and find out what the ratio is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. Here's the NIH on the topic

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/

Principal Findings

Per capita lifetime expenditure is $316,600, a third higher for females ($361,200) than males ($268,700). Two-fifths of this difference owes to women's longer life expectancy. Nearly one-third of lifetime expenditures is incurred during middle age, and nearly half during the senior years. For survivors to age 85, more than one-third of their lifetime expenditures will accrue in their remaining years.

[Grown2Hate]

19. Gotcha. I wasn't seeing the whole picture. Thanks for clarifying. :) NT

[Jim Lane]

31. I agree that this is underwriting logic, not sexism.

The underwriting logic works the other way for life insurance, because women have longer lifespans. I just checked one sample quote online (with Savings Bank Life Insurance). Changing "female" to "male" while keeping all other parameters the same was instructive. The man's premium was 34% higher.

It's not plausible to think that the insurance companies assign their antifemale executives to the health insurance division and their antimale executives to the life insurance division. All of them, in all divisions, are primarily about maximizing profits, whether that's by providing a good product, by maintaining the appearance of providing a good product, or by totally screwing the customer. The significant difference is that, in health insurance as opposed to life insurance, there are many more opportunities for that "totally screwing the customer" strategy.

[4th law of robotics]

44. So women would be paying 83 cents on the dollar for the same care men are receiving?

That doesn't seem fair.

/I would gladly pay a bit more if it meant I could live the extra 5 years or so women are statistically guaranteed.

[Monaque22]

45. Thought health care was free in the Uk?

[Dawgs]

13. Why make this men versus women?

Just as many stupid woman are shouting against it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. When your only tool is a hammer, all the problems look like nails.

This is the only tool in the national women's law center arsenal.

[alittlelark]

36. I believe that women outnumber men in their support for

healthcare reform.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

16. There are women shouting angrily too

That's what is really mind boggling.

[lark]

18. Unfortunately, stupid isn't a gender specific gene

Maybe, since I'm female, it just seems to be more predominant in males?

[DaveJ]

61. LOL. I wonder if anyone else will notice your comment.

It would be impossible for a guy to say the same thing about women and not get crucified.

I will say, it seems common for some women to follow the political affiliation of their husbands without question, don't you think?

[DaveJ]

60. They probably GOT theirs.

They could be on their partners' plans or a government job that pays for their healthcare (ironic but very typical) so they just say "hey screw everyone else."

If they were uninsured or overcharged, even a small percentage of tea baggers are not that stupid.

[april]

20. we need to forward this to everyone....! nm

[Romulox]

21. Women use a great deal more healthcare than do men, though. In a private, for-profit insurance

system, they SHOULD be charged more.

I prefer a Single Payer Not-For-Profit system, in which care is available equally to all. But I don't really see the case to enshrine private, for-profit insurers into law, and then argue women, or the elderly, for example, shouldn't be charged more (if they statistically use more service.)

That's exactly how private, for-profit insurance works!

[sybylla]

24. Do you think if men actually used their health care and saw a doctor more often

they might live longer and die healthier, happier, and less of a burden (physically and financially) on their family.

Health and health care doesn't happen in a closed system funneled through insurance companies. There are loads of costs to families and communities that don't even begin to show up in insurance companies' profit and loss statements.

The whole point of ACA is giving everyone the chance for good health through equal access to health care. Not nickel and dime-ing everyone so that only the wealthy can afford to be healthy.

But being a woman who cares about her health shouldn't be a fucking pre-existing condition. I have a right to live a healthy life, just like every man.

[Romulox]

72. You're wrong: Health Care DOES "happen in a closed system funneled through insurance companies."

The whole point of ACA is giving everyone the chance for good health through equal access to health care. Not nickel and dime-ing everyone so that only the wealthy can afford to be healthy.

No. It was about MANDATORY PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE for all Americans.

But being a woman who cares about her health shouldn't be a fucking pre-existing condition. I have a right to live a healthy life, just like every man.

That's how insurance works. Those who use more insurance pay more. It's how every other kind of insurance (e.g. life, auto) works.

If that's not what you wanted, you were "fighting" for the wrong thing.

[lunatica]

69. So should women give birth at home, in their down time between cooking and cleaning?

Because much of that use of health care is around being pregnant and giving birth. It's actually the very way all you men came into this world.

[Romulox]

71. The only I would tell women they "should" do is: don't advocate for MANDATORY PRIVATE INSURANCE

then complain that insurers use "actuarial principles" in order to charge more money to people who use more care.

And you didn't have my child, so why should I be asked to pay for it?

That's the logic of MANDATORY, FOR-PROFIT HEALTH INSURANCE; if you want something that isn't for-profit, that doesn't use actuarial principles, and that doesn't make money by denying care, then you don't want MANDATORY, FOR-PROFIT HEALTH INSURANCE. Because that's the very definition of the thing.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. Just how many protestors were there?

All the pictures I've seen have had pro and anti mixed to try to make it look like it was 50/50.

We all KNOW that's crap the media peddles.

[emulatorloo]

25. DU: "BUT IT WAS A REPUBLICAN IDEA!!11!!"

[Lex]

32. I pay $125 a month more in NC because gender discrimination is allowed

instead of the risk being spread over the whole pool of men and women.

[Amonester]

39. K&R

Explain!
Teach!
Show!

[IamK]

42. statistically, women go to the doctor more so they pay more.. they will just raise the price men pay

going forward..... no win here..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/health/policy/women-still-pay-more-for-health-insurance-data-shows.html

[Lex]

48. Primarily because they are having MEN'S babies. Spread the cost over the whole HUMAN pool.

nt

[IamK]

49. actually its because vagina visits are more frequent than penis visits.... n/t

[Lex]

52. because of the baby-making parts...n/t

[eek MD]

55. Yeah, because a woman would NEVER actually WANT to have a baby... she's always forced to do it...

All we hear in the abortion debate is.... My body, my choice.... Which I agree with.... A man should not be able to tell a woman that she can't terminate her pregnancy. However, to then turn around and say that the costs associated with that woman's CHOICE to carry a baby to term are the MAN'S fault is quite an example of hypocrisy.

[4th law of robotics]

73. Wait, they're *our* babies now? So we get a say in abortions and the like?

No of course not.

[spooky3]

62. the article you linked reported that "insurers say" that but presented no data.

And, this claim was questioned by other observers (see quote below from the same article).

Further, one of the strongest arguments that employers use in their wellness plans and HMOs is that people who go to see the doctor earlier rather than put it off until symptoms become unbearable often cost less in the long run, because diseases are caught earlier, when treatment is less costly. That argument was not addressed anywhere in the article.

"Insurers said they charged women more than men because claims showed that women ages 19 to 55 tended to use more health care services. They are more likely to visit doctors, to get regular checkups, to take prescription drugs and to have certain chronic illnesses.

But Marcia D. Greenberger, a president of the National Women’s Law Center, said the justification was “highly questionable” because the disparities varied greatly from one insurer to another.

“In Arkansas, for example,” Ms. Greenberger said, “one health plan charges 25-year-old women 81 percent more than men, while a similar plan in the same state charges women only 10 percent more.”

Differences in rates for men and women are not explained by the cost of maternity care. In the individual insurance market, such care is usually not part of the standard package of benefits. Maternity coverage may be offered as an optional benefit, or rider, for a hefty additional premium."

[daybranch]

43. support your women. It is part of being a real man.

As a man, and a husband, I know a big medical cost approximately 10,000 dollars occurs when women have children. If they have say 2.5 just to replace an average family unit, that means $25000 more in their lifetime. God bless them for bearing our children. If a man gets sick, it is usually the woman in the family who pushes him to see a doctor saving our lives in manycases and allowing us to live healthier, more productive, happier lives and benefitting society as a whole. Thank God women know more about medical services and are aware of their mens needs. In poor families, women die more from childbirth I suspect and that increases the healthcare costs we as a society and life insurance company costs. I also suspect that society as a whole would reduce total healthcare costs if women have affordable healthcare. For example how many babies with costly lifetime illnesses areborn because women did not get adequate prenatal care?
I can think of many reasons to lower costs of healthcare for women below that of men in order to meet societal goals. So I am happy to argue for reducing the cost of healthcare for women. You know that old country song- if you want him to be more of a man, be more of a woman. The converse is true, if you love your woman, be a man and support women and children whenever you can. You will be much happier.

[juajen]

46. Thank you!

I was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it. Where would the world be without women having children. We also have higher medical costs because we go to "female" doctors for all sorts of things we do not share with men, since intimate relations are the cause of a good percentage of our visits. Of course, most husbands and some significant others do know why we go to our doctors, but a lot of men just don't want to know what goes on between a woman and her doctor.

[Lex]

53. at least he has one n/t

[eek MD]

54. Is this a joke?

"I can think of many reasons to lower costs of healthcare for women below that of men in order to meet societal goals."

So let me get this straight. Women consume more healthcare and generate more healthcare costs than men, but women should pay LESS than men for healthcare?

Unlike some of the people here, I'm all in favor of women and men paying the SAME amount for health insurance. HOWEVER, to get rid of the double-standard, men should also not be penalized when they buy car insurance and life insurance simply because of their gender. To allow gender stereotyping in one area of the insurance industry, but prohibit it in other areas of the insurance industry just flat-out doesn't pass the smell test.

Oh, and welcome to DU....

[nolabels]

58. It must be a joke

The unequal pay from top to bottom favors men at a very high rate. Mostly, if it were the need to be fair, women healthcare should be free with men picking up the tab. But not to pick a fight here (that the rich people would want us to have about something like this), mostly our problem is top to bottom with with wealthy skimming the top much more than they should have ever been allowed to. The rich have screwed the system and since we ALL let them, we ALL will pay for it till it gets fixed. And again, us poor folks must fix it, because the ones skimming the cream on the top never will. Welcome to the feudal society (that never left)

[eek MD]

59. Wow...Just... wow

Quote - "Mostly, if it were the need to be fair, women healthcare should be free with men picking up the tab."

It is illegal for employers to pay a woman less simply because she is a woman. So because some employers are illegally paying women less than men, we should give women free healthcare paid for wholly by men? I'm sorry, but this idea is batshit insane and discriminatory. It's a shame to see it on DU.

[nolabels]

63. Oh for shame of it all

You can't step in the dog poop and expect it not to smell like it does. Really another ten cents on the dollar in taxes to pay for something that should be taxed and funded by government for all people wouldn't bother me a bit. Universal health care for all shouldn't even be a debate in a country like the US. Sorry you feel so frustrated in the idea you might be having to help someone else

[eek MD]

64. There's a massive difference between.......

There's a massive difference between:

"something that should be taxed and funded by government for all people"

and

"women healthcare should be free with men picking up the tab."

Perhaps you should clarify your position a little better next time. One of your statements sounds as if only women deserve universal healthcare paid for by men, and that would somehow be "fair".

[4th law of robotics]

74. They aren't "my" women

As far as I'm aware they are independent agents.

I don't demand that "real women" subsidize my car insurance.

[Little Star]

47. I just can't stop looking at this graphic.