Herpes cases among babies linked to ultra-Orthodox Jewish circumcision ritual

[HAB911]

Thursday 9 March 2017

New York health department alerts doctors to infections linked to ancient ritual in which circumcision wound is cleaned by mouth

A baby boy was rushed to hospital when he developed herpes following a controversial ancient circumcision ritual, it has been reported.

The New York health department alerted doctors to the case of a newborn who fell ill after undergoing the ultra-Orthodox Jewish practice in which the circumcision wound is cleaned by mouth.

A rash is said to have spread across the child’s genitals, buttocks, inner thighs and ankle two weeks after the procedure.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/herpes-babies-jewish-circumcision-ritual-link-rabbis-infants-a7620446.html

[LOL Lib]

1. Religious LULZ...SMH

The majority of Jewish circumcision ceremonies do not include metzitzah b’peh, in which the mohel, or circumciser, places their mouth directly on the wound to suck away the blood.

[HAB911]

2. Crazy NYer's and male genital mutilation

Wow

2 Infants Diagnosed With Herpes After Ritual Jewish Circumcisions: Officials

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Herpes-Infant-New-York-City-Circumcision-Jewish-Ritual-Oral-Suction-Orthodox-268327522.html

[LOL Lib]

4. I have read about this...

I can't figure out how this ritual ever came into practice. Lopping off genitals is crazy, but let some old guy suckle your baby's schmekle is fucking insane!

What parent says, "God wants this old guy to suck the blood from my son's freshly mutilated penis? Sure! Go ahead!"

[Mosby]

7. What genital is "lopped off" exactly?

Do you think circumcision is the same as removing a young girl's clitoris?

[LOL Lib]

31. Of course not!

Which I'm certain you already knew. The foreskin provides pleasure and is part of the male genitalia. Are you trying to make some archaic excuse that the foreskin is useless?

[still_one]

49. Just intentional flame-baiting, because they know perfectly well the foreskin is NOT

the same thing. It's a complete distortion to even try to equate the two.

[snooper2]

98. Exactly, and apparently it is tasty cooked or un-cooked!

And it is FOR SURE kosher LOL

[still_one]

101. Thanks for distorting what I said, and then making what you think is a "cute" remark, thinking

you are so f**king cleaver

well, it isn't that cleaver or funny.

What is described in the OP of this thread, at the minimum, the health department should have never allowed it

[snooper2]

102. The mom shouldn't have allowed it, any mom

Thanks for popping the baby boy out mom!

Now, uh, we are just going to take him to this other room real quick full of old men with scraggly beards. Not doing anything sick or gross, just be a little bit- promise!

[tblue37]

90. After an infant died of herpes in 2012 after such a ritual, I am surprised anyone would risk it:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-dies-herpes-virus-ritual-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618

"Baby Dies of Herpes in Ritual Circumcision By Orthodox Jews"

BTW, according to the article in my link, another infant died in 2004--and two others were infected.

[Mosby]

5. Just curious

Since you used the term, do you see a difference between circumcision and FGM?

[pnwmom]

10. The American Academy of Pediatrics says there are some health benefits to male circumcision,

but there are only risks to female genital mutilation.

The World Health Organization says the same.

https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/newborn-male-circumcision.aspx

8/27/2012
After a comprehensive review of the scientific evidence, the American Academy of Pediatrics found the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision. The AAP policy statement published Monday, August 27, says the final decision should still be left to parents to make in the context of their religious, ethical and cultural beliefs.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/102/1/153.full.pdf

The traditional custom of ritual cutting and alteration of the genitalia of female infants, girls, and adolescents, referred to as female genital mutilation (FGM), persists primarily in Africa and among certain communities in the Middle East and Asia. Immigrants in the United States from areas where FGM is endemic may have daughters who have undergone a ritual genital pro- cedure or may request that such a procedure be per- formed by a physician. The American Academy of Pedi- atrics (AAP) believes that pediatricians and pediatric surgical specialists should be aware that this practice has serious, life-threatening health risks for children and women. The AAP opposes all forms of FGM, counsels its members not to perform such ritual procedures, and en- courages the development of community educational programs for immigrant populations.

[Doodley]

55. What a surprise - The AMERICAN Academy of Pediatrics defends an American ritual

[pnwmom]

66. The World Health Organization came to the same conclusion.

http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence.

Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes: the provision of HIV testing and counseling services; treatment for sexually transmitted infections; the promotion of safer sex practices; the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use.

[Doodley]

82. WHO is saying it should be considered in countries and regions with high HIV levels.

Aren't we talking about USA? It is misinformation to suggest WHO thinks North American males should be circumcised.

[pnwmom]

85. The American Pediatric Society says that the research shows that the benefits

slightly outweigh the risks. One of the other benefits is a reduced number of kidney infections in babies and young boys, which can occur silently and cause permanent kidney damage.

By contrast, there is NO benefit at all to FMG.

[Crunchy Frog]

35. I see a difference in degree.

And some types of FGC are less severe than cutting off the entire male prepuce, as in the type that involves a tiny slit in the clitoral hood.

Of course, many types are vastly more severe, but fundamentally I see it all as cutting the genitals of children.

The main difference is that we have been cultually conditioned to view one type of child genital cutting as "normal" and "good".

I certainly would hope that everyone here would at least agree that sucking the freshly cut penis of a newborn and infecting it with herpes is about as bad as it gets, and should be every bit as illegal as the FGC that people are currently up in arms about.

I know I'm going to regret making this post, and won't be surprised if it gets deleted. I won't be posting any further on the subject.

[pnwmom]

67. Of course this case was terrible and should be punished.

However, there are ZERO benefits to FMG, and there are some health benefits to male circumcision.

So it isn't a matter of "degree" of benefits.

[Doodley]

87. Nobody has said there are benefits to FMG.

[pnwmom]

89. That's why it's false equivalence, not a question of degree. There are 0 benefits to FGM. nt

[Doodley]

97. Circumcision is genital mutilation. That is a fact and it is not a commentary on FGM.

[Crunchy Frog]

94. I suspect that if they put the same amount of time, energy and money

And sheer determination into finding some benefit to some form of FGC that they have for male circumcision, that they would probably find something.

You tend to find what you're looking for, and not find what you're not looking for, and that's shaped by our cultural biases and conditioning as well.

Full disclaimer, I'm not an MRA, I'm a woman and mother of two sons who have all the parts they were born with.

Maybe this one will be enough to get me deleted. I'm never really sure these days.

[Doodley]

83. I agree with you 100%. You shouldn't fear your post being deleted for politely giving your opinion.

[Crunchy Frog]

86. It's been happening to me too much lately.

That's why I've practically stopped posting.

[Doodley]

88. I am sorry. I have experienced bullying here, but not so bad lately. Most here are good people.

[HAB911]

92. Gang mentality

[HAB911]

95. Of course there is a difference

OP and this post not about FGM

[The Big Ragu]

3. genital mutilation

wow, amazing people still do an unnecessary mutilation procedure to male infants.

[MineralMan]

17. Aha! There's the attempt to equate circumcision with FGM.

That didn't take long.

[The Big Ragu]

26. champ at the bit much?

you're too easy!

[MineralMan]

43. I'm too easy?

No, but I do recognize the game that's being played, and don't care to join it.

[Doodley]

56. Yes, it is genital mutilation, but I don't see anyone on DU equating it with FGM

[pnwmom]

69. I see that every time FMG comes up. n/t

[Doodley]

78. You see what? People who don't accept penis mutilation and old men sucking a child's genitals?

[pnwmom]

80. People who equate male circumcision, which the American Academy of Pediatrics

and the World Health Organization both say has certain health benefits; with FMG which has zero health benefits.

(No, neither org supports circumcision as it was performed in the case described in the OP -- but by doctors, under sterile conditions.)

[Doodley]

81. WHO says it has benefits in countries and regions with high levels of HIV.

I thought we are talking about USA.

[hatrack]

23. Mutilee here - I get along just fine, thank you . . .

And my circumcision was performed under sterile conditions so that I didn't have to, y'know, come down with herpes as a newborn, long before my immune system was up and really running.

Nice false equivalence, btw - glad to see that you are proud to whip it out in public.

[AtheistCrusader]

44. How do you know?

It severs tens of thousands of nerve endings.

How do you know what original factory equipment would feel like? If you're not aware of sensations you're missing because you never had them, that doesn't mean you're 'just fine'. It's a very subjective measure.

You might have gotten along 'just fine' if your parents had removed your non-dominant arm as a child, but that wouldn't make it right, or good, or necessary, or helpful, etc.

[MineralMan]

45. And how do you know?

The same question works both ways.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. Unknown. I wouldn't state that I am 'just fine'.

I don't know what it should feel like if unaltered.

I CAN ask the opinions of people who were circumcised later in life, responses vary.

[MineralMan]

48. You should meet my old friend F.Christian from Compuserve.

He could give you links to places where you can have your foreskin restored. He claimed to have had it done, and sang the praises of his new prepuce, created after time with a unique stretching device. He was a storehouse of anti-circumcision knowledge. He was, indeed. He showed up here on DU a few years back, sporting a different user name, but still spouting the same stuff. Fortunately, he was detected and shown the door after a brief stay.

I theorize that there are approximately 12 anti-circumcision posters on the internet, in total. They appear wherever circumcision is mentioned. Perhaps they have a Google search on watch to inform them whenever the subject is raised.

I recognize a few of them on sight. They have unique styles of writing and the same examples to use to make their cases.

Now, I may be underestimating their numbers, but it can't be by much.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. We have not yet learned how to actively repair severed nerves.

Maybe someday.

This thread attracted my attention because it is explicitly religious in nature, and that is most definitely something I have an issue with. Under no other circumstances can I think of a medical professional wanting to, or being allowed to place their mouth on another human's open wound. Yet BECAUSE RELIGION this practice seems to be allowed/overlooked. For why?

Overall I'm 'against it', but in this case, my outrage is specific to the particular practice in question, and the side-effects thereof. Namely, blood borne pathogens.

[Doodley]

60. That is about the most insulting post I have ever read, to imply that there are only

12 people who would post in opposition to your view.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. He also grabbed the MRA broad brush and a couple other demonization tools elsewhere in the thread.

[pnwmom]

68. My father knew a couple men who had had to have it done as an adult.

Their only regret was that they hadn't had it done as infants when the recovery would have been easier -- but once they were healed they didn't notice a loss of function.

So he, who wasn't circumcised but was aware of the heath benefits, had my brother get the procedure.

[Doodley]

58. I suggest, you believe it is acceptable because you have been conditioned to believe that.

[LanternWaste]

100. Much as we are conditioned to accept piercings and tattoos as well.

Much as we are conditioned to accept piercings and tattoos as well. And often endure pain for mere vanity...

[Mariana]

106. We don't accept tattoos on infants.

We only accept tattoos on adults, who made the decision for themselves.

[leftynyc]

6. FUCKING RELIGION

What the fuck is wrong with these people. This isn't the first time this problem has come up and they've done NOTHING to avoid it. The mohel should be arrested immediately for negligence.

[Mosby]

9. What if he didn't know he had herpes?

A lot of people have HSV2 and don't know it, and half the world has HSV1.

For the record I think the sucking the blood practice is crazy.

[leftynyc]

16. Ok - giving the benefit of the doubt

isn't the worst thing but at the very least, they should be contacting the parents of every single child this mohel put his disgusting mouth on (THIS ritual is insane).

[Mosby]

41. I think the practice should be banned, frankly

For reasons of public health.

From what I understand NY now requires parents to sign off on it.

[leftynyc]

42. Agree 100%

It shouldn't even be allowed when parents are willing. It's completely unnecessary.

[jberryhill]

52. Yeah, if I put my mouth on an infant's penis, I admit, I wouldn't know either

So, I guess that's why I pretty much don't put infant penises in my mouth.

[Mosby]

59. Lol, you were born to be a lawyer.

[Act_of_Reparation]

70. No excuse.

If you're going to be lopping pieces off people's bodies you should have a remedial understanding of aseptic technique. That includes knowing 90% of the world's population carries either HSV1 or HSV2.

[Mosby]

76. Still doesn't show intent.

Ask the lawyer in the thread.

[Act_of_Reparation]

77. I don't know if the mohel had a legal duty to comply with aseptic standards.

I think he certainly should.

Mohels have been pulling this crap for years, and if there is no statute holding them to same standards even lowly tattoo artists are expected to maintain, then that is something the State of New York needs to address in the most ricky tick.

[MineralMan]

8. Sorry. Anti-Circumcision Month Isn't Until August.

Let's keep on schedule, shall we? There's a good lad...

[grantcart]

12. When is the "Anti-cleaning of circumcision by mouth" month?

[MineralMan]

14. Frankly, I don't think that month exists.

Oddly enough, it seems like the whole circumcision thing has come up on every damned discussion forum I've ever been on, including some about fishing, boating and several other subjects that don't actually lend themselves to any such topic.

It is my opinion that there are about a dozen people who write every last one of those posts on every last one of those forums. The same wording gets repeated, the same stale stories get told, and the same overwrought concern about a bit of skin gets bandied about. The same confused correlation with female genital mutilation, too, seems to pop up in every such thread.

I have seen the same thread all across the online world since the days of GEnie and Compuserve. I'm quite certain it's all the same dozen posters all along.

Feh!

[grantcart]

18. In this case we are talking about 24 confirmed cases of herpes transmission

and the Ultra orthodox rabbis agreeing to monitor the situation with the mayor.

Seems like a pretty unhygienic practice that isn't essential to the religious custom and only practiced by a small percent.

[MineralMan]

21. No doubt you're correct. However, I can't for the life of me

see where it fits in DU. It's barbaric, as far as I'm concerned, but it's a problem that is limited to one little ultra-conservative sect of one religion. It's really a matter for public health departments, but they probably don't want the tsuris connected with going after ultra-orthodox Judaism in New York. Those rabbis need to get a handle on the problem, but it's to isolated a problem, really, to be of general concern, I think.

Worse, every time one of these stories is posted here, the anti-circumcision folks out of the woodwork come and everything goes to Hell once again. I detest those threads, and have been fighting them all over the online world for decades. They're absolutely toxic.

[The Big Ragu]

27. fight the good fight

it must be amazing to have that much free time.

[MineralMan]

37. Oh, I earn my free time. But, I do have some of it.

This isn't a fight at all, though. Just a couple of people standing far apart, shaking their fists at each other in powerless rage.

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. You answer your own question on why DU should be talking about it

they probably don't want the tsuris connected with going after ultra-orthodox Judaism in New York.

When one group has become so powerful they can put health departments off doing their job and saving children's lives (this vile practice had led to deaths), then it's a matter of public concern that should be discussed, and pressure applied until it's fixed.

Maybe you should consider fighting the practice that spreads disease rather than threads? Its the bloodsucking that is literally toxic.

[MineralMan]

107. My battle is with fundamentalist Christians.

They affect far more people than a small Jewish sect in NYC. I am nowhere near that city. Fundamentalists of every religion are the problem. People,who believe that their religious beliefs should override everything else are the problem.

[muriel_volestrangler]

109. But you joined a discussion about infectign children with herpes to let us know you can't work out

why this is on DU. If you want to be parochial and only think about things in the world that directly affect you, that's fine, but it seems strange to question why other DUers talk about matters of public health.

[NCTraveler]

29. 24 cases in seventeen years.

How many have been performed since 2000?

[Doodley]

61. 24 cases of child abuse is always 24 too many.

[NCTraveler]

62. Point not in contention.

Leaves the question unanswered.

[Doodley]

63. What question?

[NCTraveler]

64. Have a good day. Nt

[TexasBushwhacker]

30. And herpes infections in newborns can be deadly

Since newborns don't have much of an immune system, the herpes virus can spread to the central nervous system, causing meningitis and/or encephalitis. Since a person can shed virus without any outward symptoms, some women who have genital herpes opt to have a C-section to eliminate any chance of infecting their baby.

[Coventina]

13. Yeah "Muh Dick" got banned for being off schedule.

[MineralMan]

15. As far as I'm concerned, it's always off schedule.

It always seems to be the MRAs who bring this up, anyhow. And usually to attempt some sort of equation with FGM. As I said in another reply, I'm almost certain that all such posts are written by about twelve people, who have been writing the same crap for a couple of decades online now.

If ever there was a topic I would completely ban from any forum I ran, it would be the circumcision topic. It never starts or ends well.

There was this one guy on Compuserve...Uff da! He had the word Christian in his screen name. I've seen him elsewhere, too. His diction and writing style, along with his pet topic are unmistakable. He was on DU a few years ago, but ended up getting a pizza.

[HAB911]

19. Even in the context of spreading STD's

Herpes and HepC are a ticking time bomb for boomers, 1 in 30 have HepC and don't know it!

[MineralMan]

39. Being one of those boomers, in fact one of the first of them,

I have neither. I'm either lucky or careful about some things.

[Mosby]

47. Comparing herpes to hepatitis C is silly.

half of the world has oral herpes (maybe you heard of cold sores, that's herpes), which is most likely what was transferred to these infants.

So we have no idea if these mohels are spreading an STD.

In the context of impact on baby boomers, Hep c is an infection that destroys a person's liver. That's a little worse than a blister on your lip.

[LeftInTX]

74. Neonatal herpes is very serious and can be fatal

They whisked my granddaughter to the ER after a relative with a cold sore kissed her.
They even performed a spinal tap on her. (She was less than one week old)
She was in the hospital for a day and was given Acylovir until she was given the all clear.

I was shocked by all of this because I previously thought it was only genital herpes that caused systemic symptoms, but cold sores can kill.

[Mosby]

75. I understand that

The poster I was responding to seems to think that these mohels are spreading genital herpes, that is a supposition. Further, the poster, for whatever reason, is trying to create some sort of equivalency between hep c and hsv1, hsv2 and zoster.

[HAB911]

96. ANYTHING could be transmitted during that procedure

[Coventina]

20. Agree with you.

I'm not saying that male circumcision isn't an issue, but it seems like every time you scratch the surface of a guy who makes an issue of it, there's a whole nest of other "stuff" that comes attached.

[MineralMan]

22. Yes, indeed.

The topic is like a magnet. A very strong magnet that can reach into all sorts of dark corners, and even under bridges.

[Doodley]

84. As well as banning forum threads on circumcision, maybe you'd burn books on it too?

If you have evidence that I and others on this thread who are opposed to circumcision are part of your "12" then let's see it. Otherwise, stop being offensive.

[snooper2]

99. You are correct- But this is Anti-SuckABabyPenisMonth

So the thread is still appropriate




Stupid Fundies

[HAB911]

11. Well, at first I thought

https://img.purch.com/h/1400/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA5MS8yOTkvb3JpZ2luYWwvZ2lhbnQtc2hpcHdvcm0tZGlzY292ZXJlZC0wMS5qcGc=

but I guess it's a shipworm

http://www.livescience.com/58711-giant-shipworm-discovered.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

[MineralMan]

24. Oh, cool. Photos of things that look something like a penis.

What a surprise!

[HAB911]

25. Have you ever experienced humor?

Just askin'

[LOL Lib]

33. I appreciate your humor.

[HAB911]

38. Thanks

I've found many here that do not

[LOL Lib]

79. As have I, their loss!

[MineralMan]

40. Why yes, I have. In fact, I'm a real funny guy most of the time.

But when I'm not, I'm not very funny at all. I know what you're doing. And you know I know. It's a tricky line to walk.

[HAB911]

93. LOL

Now you're showing some humor!

[NCTraveler]

28. 24 cases in seventeen years.

Over one thousand shootings in NY City alone last year.

[LOL Lib]

34. Cool story bro! Please tell it again!

This time explain the part where the gun criminal sucks the blood from the freshly carved penis.

[NCTraveler]

36. It's not a cool story. It's a fact.

I have no clue why there is such blood thirst from the gun crowd.

[jberryhill]

53. So you are saying they should shoot the babies instead?

[NCTraveler]

54. Exactly. Nt

[LeftInTX]

32. Neonatal herpes is very serious and is often fatal

They whisked my granddaughter to the ER when a relative with a cold sore kissed her.
They even performed a spinal tap on her. (She was less than one week old)
She was in the hospital for a day until she was given the all clear.

[Warpy]

51. They've known about this for at least TEN YEARS

so what the FUCK is the matter with these people? Most are educated enough to know about germ theory. They vaccinate their kids. So why don't they look around for a mohel who uses a 2x2 instead of his mouth? Or if they're wedded to this risky tradition, who uses a 2x2 and sticks his germy mouth over that? Herpes isn't the only thing they could give the kid.

I've seen disseminated herpes. There is no way I'd wish it on Cheney, let alone a baby.

[jeanmarc]

57. I hate this shit.

It's bad for Orthodox Jews, because it makes them seem weird and isolates them. it's bad for the victims, obviously. And the practice just isn't right. Thanks for giving my kid herpes, Rabbi. I guess if the parents are into it, there's not much to be done, but man, it's tough to read about.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

72. when it comes to the weird things Orthodox Jews do in New York...

This isn't quite as public as their air raid sirens.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

71. When I first heard about this as a child I thought there was just no way it was true

Then I asked my parents and they informed me it was 100% true but not even our weird relatives in New York were that weird.

[Sgent]

73. I've got some fairly Orthodox

family in Chicago, and we were talking a couple of years ago about this story. We had heard of it, but had never actually met Jews who did it.

[oasis]

91. Both shocking and saddening. nt

[mainer]

103. 24 cases of infant herpes from circumcision, two deaths, two with brain damage

I didn't know this. Tragic.

According to the Health Department, 24 cases of herpes have been linked to circumcision since 2000. Two of the infants died and two others suffered brain damage.

http://nypost.com/2017/03/08/new-case-of-neonatal-herpes-caused-by-jewish-circumcision/

[HockeyMom]

104. Correct me if I am wrong

but in the past I have known non Orthodox Jewish couples who had their sons circumcised in the hospital by a doctor with a Rabbi in attendance just to say the prayers.

Certainly,millions of non Jews would not be having their sons circumcision done by a Rabbi. How many doctors are refusing to perform circumcision on infants?

How many of you have heard of the Catholic Feast of the Circumcision (Jesus)? Holy Day of Obligation. Should this religion stop celebrating that too?

[Crunchy Frog]

108. Only if that particular Holy Day

involves sucking the genitals of children.