If you're atheist and believe all 3 branches of govt are corrupt

[ProudLib72]

Last edited Wed Apr 12, 2017, 05:32 PM - Edit history (1)

edit: and don't trust the American people who put tRump in the WH.

How can you trust that tRump and his goons will eventually get their comeuppance?

[usedtobedemgurl]

1. Because I do believe in karma even if I am atheist.

Is this a real question? It is not like if you believe in heaven then there is a commandment that says thou shalt not fuck the whole country over. I went to an all girl's Catholic school from k-12 and I am definitely an atheist.

[HAB911]

2. What's the connection?

Are you saying only (insert your god here) can give them their comeuppance?

[ProudLib72]

13. I'm saying

I've seen posters here that insinuate God will eventually punish them (granted they might have been speaking sarcastically) while other posters believe that congress will impeach. There is no connection between the two. My question is, What if you believe in neither God nor the government?

[cyclonefence]

28. I don't know what you mean by "comeuppance"

If you mean tit-for-tat punishment for his sins, my answer is I don't care.

If you mean he gets thrown out or otherwise removed from office, I'll be happy but I don't see what god or even necessarily "government" (whatever you mean by that) will have to do with it.

My hatred for Trump burns brighter than a thousand suns, but I don't feel the need to see "karma" or "god" or any earthly agency teach him a lesson (which is how I interpret getting his comeuppance). I don't care whether he burns in non-existent hell forever or loses his fortune or anything else. I just want him out of office, and god certainly has nothing to do with it.

[procon]

41. Non sequitur.

The first would describe an an atheist, but the latter is an anarchist, so what's the concept for your correlation between two such dissimilar concepts? While both words start with the letter "A" that seems a shaky premise.

How does a belief, or non-belief, in supernatural beings become synonymous with "believing" in the existence of something as tangible as a government?

[HAB911]

52. IMO

(insert your god here) will certainly not punish him and I give (this) government about a 50/50 chance of punishing him, maybe less. Since government is the only hope for punishment...........just shoot me now.

[flyingfysh]

3. You can't

So we have to work to manage the situation NOW. If we don't do it, nobody will.

[NCTraveler]

4. I don't trust that he will get his comeuppance.

I am a bit optimistic that he will.

The flip side of this is that religious people know he will get his in the end. Strange way for you to look at a situation, in my opinion.

[Kentonio]

5. I don't.

And what's more, I hate when people say those criminals will be judged 'in this life or the next'. No they won't, either people do the hard work of holding them accountable now, or they'll just get away with it like so many before them have.

[samnsara]

8. yep!

[samnsara]

6. why shouldnt we? The universe has a way of correcting itself...

..and we as a collection of sentient free thinking humans beings have a way of exacting our pound of flesh without belief that someone is gonna do it for us.

[Zoonart]

16. MLK

“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”


― Martin Luther King Jr.

[tazkcmo]

7. What does religious belief

have to do with justice?

For the record, I'm only an atheist and don't believe all of our government is corrupt. Some employed by the government? Yes.

[ronnie624]

57. It isn't government that is corrupt,

it's the political system. Its financing method is designed to enable the purchase of influence over legislation and policy. Whether deliberate or not, it clearly subordinates the common interests of our society, to the personal interests of an elite minority. That is the very definition of corruption. It has to change, in order for our government to truly function on behalf of the common good.

[tazkcmo]

58. Just cuz you can

doesn't mean you should. Nobody is forcing the individual politician from accepting the bribes, er, contributions but I do agree the "system" makes corruption more likely.

on edit: Still doesn't answer the question: What does religious belief have to do with justice?

[ronnie624]

60. In my opinion, justice is self-apparent, and does not need religious guidance.

Logic, an understanding of the fundamental principles of science and a sense of compassion work for me.

But I'm a non-believer, so...

[Thomas Hurt]

9. Corrupt doesn't necessarily mean impotent.

Corrupt does not mean that every single person in them are corrupt.

why does comeuppance have to arise from a divine act?

Have faith in God if it suits you or not if it suits. Frankly being theist or atheist has little to do with whether Trump will go down.

Have some faith in the Constitution, the free press and in the citizenry.

Finally, have some faith that Trump is incompetent and will inevitably bring himself down, no god or karma or luck required.

If you believe it so, you can always take heart that eventually God will judge Trump whether he destroys himself politically in the here and now or not.

[LanternWaste]

10. If you're Christian and believe all three branches of government corrupt

If you're Christian and believe all three branches of government corrupt, how do you rationalize setting your mind on things that are on earth, rather than above...? (Colossians 3:2)

[JNelson6563]

11. lol What?

I think my fellow humans will become increasingly sickened and there will be some justice, eventually.

[Norbert9]

12. So if you don't have faith in a religion, then you don't have faith in humanity?

[ProudLib72]

14. You guys are misunderstanding my OP

If you have no faith that there is some divine retribution for evil people AND you do believe that all three branches are corrupt, then what do you have to fall back upon?

In other words, there is no God to strike them down. A rethug congress will not impeach and convict. What hope do you have left?

[jberryhill]

17. "Fall back upon" for what?

The Zodiac Killer was never caught. How do you sleep at night knowing that God/The Universe/Whatever failed to catch him?

It may come as a surprise to you that there are people whose life's satisfaction does not derive from the hope that someone somewhere is going to be punished for something.

[Kentonio]

51. I think the point is more about justice than punishment

If a government is openly corrupt and the members of that government grow vastly wealthy from their corruption and live the rest of their lives in luxury with no consequence, then you can want justice without any partiular desire for specific punishment.

[Voltaire2]

20. You think a god is actively interceding in human affairs?

Seriously? Have you thought through the implications of that belief?

[ProudLib72]

45. Nope. Try reading

[Voltaire2]

46. Perhaps when everyone in your thread doesnt

seem to quite understand what the point of your post was, the problem isn't in the reader?

As an atheist I don't think the universe has any moral arc. There is nothing that guarantees that the long right shift from Reagan to Trump will stop anytime soon. It is up to us, and we may not prevail.

[ProudLib72]

47. I don't see why anyone would have difficulty understanding

if they read the post carefully. I never wrote that I was or was not religiously inclined. Yet the atheism part of the question is what everyone picked up on, and they decided I believed in a god who would someone strike tRump down. My post was about other people's beliefs, not my own.

[smirkymonkey]

44. Because, usually monumentally stupid, paranoid people with

massive egos eventually do themselves in sooner or later. They aren't clever enough or humble enough to cover up their misdeeds and eventually the law catches up with them.

[jberryhill]

48. Yep

[jberryhill]

15. Sometimes people get their "comeuppance" and sometimes they don't

What is the requirement that anyone subscribe to some sort of "trust" that the universe runs on a principle of score-settling?

Sometimes people get away with having done awful things, and sometimes they don't.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

My comfort in life does not derive from some sense of personal satisfaction that someone's going to get their "comeuppance".

[ProudLib72]

22. I don't believe in a cosmic score keeping system

It's that DUers seem to have this faith that something is going to happen. Every day for the last three months, something is going to happen (and soon). Nothing happens, but I continue to see this faith expressed in many, many posts. At the same time, there are hundreds of posts about corruption in each branch of government. Maybe the atheism thing was a red herring in this context; however, I did see a post recently about tRump and his minions being sorted out by God. I wanted to cover all avenues of faith that would allow someone to consistently believe these people will be removed (at the very least).

[jberryhill]

27. "I did see a post recently about tRump and his minions being sorted out by God"

Well that would be what that person happens to believe.

I still want to know what was God's beef with the 250,000+ people killed in the tsunami in 2004. Maybe ask that one.

We live, we die, our choices on what we do during that time are our own.

Maybe things will work out, maybe they won't. I guess if one bases one's own personal satisfaction on things one cannot control or be responsible for, then one has to have some way of dealing with the frustration that things don't always work out the way one wanted.

Any generalization about what "DUer's believe" is pointless.

[MineralMan]

18. Deities are not the only entities that can mete out punishments, you know.

In fact, since I've observed a deity doing anything at all, I suppose human punishment is the norm.

[haele]

19. They'll get their comeuppance because they're stupid and short-sighted.

There's smart and corrupt and there's venal and corrupt.
When corruption is obvious and harmful to it's own support structure, it's become venal and self-destructive. It's a form of natural selection.
You don't need to believe in a God to predict that outcome...you just have to understand physics and history.

Haele

[0rganism]

21. why would you "trust" that anyway?

i don't trust justice-for-Trump to the government right now and i wouldn't trust it to any deity either. WTF should i? some tyrants fall hard early, some live long lives of sadistic luxury while exploiting the people they rule, and there's a nice wide swath of grey in between. lots of possibilities out there. why would comeuppance be the only (or even likely) outcome?

[ProudLib72]

26. Ok, more precise wording is needed

Instead of "trust" read "have faith". Instead of "comeuppance" read "be brought to justice or (at least) removed".

The point here follows from what you've just written. If we apply your words to tRump, he might be in power for eight years. That is one possibility. However, the sense I get from perusing DU is that the majority believe he is on the verge of removal. Is this merely an expression of our desire to see him ousted, or is there some sort of faith based belief at work?

[0rganism]

42. i think the answer to your question is going to vary significantly from person to person

some of us may forecast such events as an expression of vague hope, some as an expression of faith in our institutions, and perhaps some from a sense of divine justice or historical inevitability. maybe start a poll thread?

personally, i have no idea whether there will be justice, comeuppance, and/or removal. seems like there's a fair bit of pushback from the internal workings of government now, systemic strain from attempting to use and abuse this government in ways for which it was not designed, constructed, retrofitted or otherwise equipped to handle, like a gorilla trying to ride a unicycle as a snowboard. but as time goes on, this resistance will diminish as Trump and the GOP commit damn-near irreparable harm to our government and way of life. 2018 may well be too little too late, but if you want to have a positive outlook on the situation you'll have to put your hope in something.

[Stuckinthebush]

23. I'm an atheist and don't have hope that Trump will get his due

We are a stupid, stupid nation. I believe you are witnessing the end times of this experiment. I just don't see how we ever get back to even a semblance of what it is meant to be.

[malaise]

24. Not sure how religion comes into this one

At the end of the day corrupt governments are removed by citizens who can't take it anymore.

[ProudLib72]

43. Just added a little to the OP

to cover this.

[jackssonjack]

25. You can't.

The good guys don't always win and bad people get away with evil every day.

[MedusaX]

29. Survival of the fittest...

Every predator is also prey...
If by chance, all other predators fail to eliminate them... mortality is unavoidable.

[beam me up scottie]

30. I don't. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld never got their 'comeuppance'.

Atheism has nothing to do with this.

Some people are more optimistic than others - they believe that Trump will pay for his actions and others don't.

I do not expect Republicans will vote to impeach and I don't believe it will even come up for a vote because I don't believe anyone in Washington will be willing to sacrifice their career by leaking information that would implicate him in a crime. I think Trump will be protected by those who could bring him down just like Bush was protected.

Maybe I'm wrong, if so I'll be happy to eat my words - but it has nothing to do with atheism.

[Warpy]

31. What makes you think any of that is connected?

The universe is a completely impersonal place.

If he does get any "comeuppance," it will be realizing he's not taking any of this with him as he shuffles off this mortal coil. He won't recognize it as such.

[ProudLib72]

32. I do think the universe is completely impersonal

And I don't trust any of the three branches of government.

But a lot of people on DU keep suggesting that he will, indeed, have to answer. So what entity will make him answer? That's the question, and I do not have an answer for it.

[Warpy]

35. Perhaps people just want that to happen

Either he makes the cash flow negative enough that a corrupt government can't take any more or he has that overdue MI during one of his Twitstorms.

Nobody expects the Justice Fairy to swoop down and settle his hash. Nothing really works that way.

There's a huge difference between wanting a desired outcome and expecting one. The former is the human condition. The latter is magical thinking.

[malchickiwick]

33. The FSM will damn them to an eternity of garlic bread with no sauce to dip it in. EOM

[Alice11111]

34. What does it have to do w atheism? Like the RonReagan ad

Reminds me of the Ron Reagan ad. If you are an atheist and concerned about separation of church and state...then blah, blah...not afraid of burning in hell.

He takes a serious issue, which I feel passionately about, separation of church and state, and connects it to another issue, and makes it sound stupid. I don't care if he is an atheist and he wants to promote it, but what a stupid, illogical connection. I used to respect him, but now I just see him as having no logical reasoning capacity.

[Mariana]

36. If you're Christian and believe all 3 branches of govt are corrupt

How can you trust that tRump and his goons will eventually get their comeuppance? They may sincerely repent of their sins seconds before they die, be forgiven and go straight to heaven, suffering zero consequences in the afterlife.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Good point. Family Guy had a hilarious take on that:

[OriginalGeek]

40. To add to that

if you're a Christian, how do you feel about your god's performance this election cycle? Seems to me he kinda fucked y'all over pretty badly.


At any rate, I'm an atheist and figure if mango asshole gets any comeuppance it will be because somebody in a position to do so had the intestinal fortitude to turn him in with evidence to convict. I do not think that somebody is jesus or god.

[hatrack]

38. You can't - some will, some won't, twas ever thus . . .

.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

39. What does the lack of belief in god or gods have to do with comeuppance anyway?

[Warren DeMontague]

49. because physics.

[KG]

50. I lulz'd

nice try.

[liberalmuse]

53. I'm cynical but hopeful.

Whether or not anything happens to stop this madness is up to we citizens and perhaps those in government who still believe in decency. Republicans are most definitely lacking humanity as their god appears to be money. If nothing else, their comeuppance will be death and they'll have to leave their money and power behind.

Even though I don't believe in God, I look at history and know the pendulum eventually swings back.

[Mr Dixon]

54. What?

SMH

[luvMIdog]

55. I would not adopt a belief system for a desire of vengeance or retaliation

[JenniferJuniper]

56. This question makes no sense.

I hope Trump et al die in prison, but I have no specific "belief" that they will.

What are you going for with this?

[ProudLib72]

59. What keeps you going

You said "hope". Is that it, no faith in the process?

At the end of the day, we have a choice. Either we give up and become depressed as hell, or we keep resisting. If you are on DU, then you most likely belong in the later group. I can't put my finger on why I keep going. I don't have a name for it, maybe morbid curiosity to see the next train wreck drives me forward. I was just asking everyone else keeps them from going bonkers.

[JenniferJuniper]

62. Yeah, that's it. I do not have faith they will be punished. Just hope.

That's all that there can be. Is that really so difficult to relate to?

[ProudLib72]

63. Nope, makes sense

There had been some posts that got me thinking some DUers either had a lot of faith in our system or faith in people in general.

[Orsino]

61. There will be no comeupppance for most of them...

...except those who accidentally incriminate themselves in offenses law enforcement can't ignore.

Corruption is the law of the land, for the most part.

[NastyRiffraff]

64. What?? "compeppance" needn't come from a god

That's like people asking me how I stop myself from killing and stealing because I'm an atheist.

[JenniferJuniper]

65. Exactly. Which is why I wonder about some religious folks

who think we all need religion to keep us from acting like savages.

Er, Joe Fundamentalist, if you really think you need Jesus to keep you from murdering people, you probably need some serious anger management counseling.

[KG]

66. yeah, the OP was a thinly veil sneer against atheists

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

67. The Trumps and affiliated goons will not get any "comeuppance".

The best we can hope for is that they get removed in the next elections.

Or that St. Peter eventually smacks them in the head and denies entrance to heaven.

One of those.