United passengers berated United employees who got on plane and took bumped seats.

[Cattledog]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/business/united-flight-passenger-dragged.html

...Another United employee told passengers that the plane would not leave until four people got off, Mr. Bridges said. The employee then specified that the airline had four United employees who needed to get to Louisville, he said...

A United employee first approached a couple that appeared to be in their mid-20s, Mr. Bridges said, and the pair begrudgingly got off the plane. Then the United employee went to a man five rows behind Mr. Bridges, and told him he needed to get off the plane. The man told the employee, “I’m not getting off the plane. I’m a doctor, I have to see patients in the morning,” Mr. Bridges said.

“We explained the scenario to the customer,” Mr. Hobart said. “That customer chose not to get out of his seat.”

The situation became uncomfortable for the United employees who then got on board and took the vacated seats, Mr. Bridges said. They were berated by passengers and told they should be ashamed, he said.

The man who had been removed returned to the flight briefly, Mr. Bridges said, and was removed again. Video shows him jogging through the aisle, repeatedly saying: “I have to go home.”

[gratuitous]

1. It's 300 miles from Chicago to Louisville

Next time just hire a town car, United?

[R B Garr]

4. Exactly, or some kind of shuttle van service like the

railroad has to pick up railroad crew who have worked the maximum hours allowed.

[hack89]

17. But that is precisely the issue

Their clock had just started. They were going to work - they had to get to Lousiville and in the cockpit before they busted crew rest limits.

[liberalhistorian]

31. Boo effing hoo, that isn't the passengers'

problem, that is United's problem. And United showed some some very poor planning and lack of logistical skills, they should have had this figured out much earlier. They should not make their own lack of planning and incompetence their PAYING customers' problem. That is bullshit, and, unfortunately, more and more businesses are pulling this shit.

[hack89]

33. True they could have cancelled the flight out of Louisville

it would have inconvenienced more than a hundred PAYING passengers but someone was going to be inconvenienced in any case.

[JHB]

55. There were other options available. It's United that cut those off...

The first and most obvious is the inadequate inducements for people to give up their seats ($800 vouchers aren't much use if you have no plans to fly anywhere, or if they come with restrictions that make it too hard to actually use them). The on-site employees needed to be able to offer deals of greater value to essentially buy back the tickets. The company did not allow them the latitude to do so, and nobody higher up provided authorization to deal with an unusual situation.

I don't immediately have a link for the second possibility, but I've read that if they simply shuttled the employees to a different Chicago airport, they had several options for flights on other airlines that would have worked just as well as getting them on that United flight.

And then there's the road trip option: hire a van and have someone drive them where they needed to go.

The company cut off those options, and relied on what amounted to chump change and intimidation, and it's blown up in their face.

And the people responsible for that are United's executives.

[LanternWaste]

61. Rational minds often perceive more than merely one or two solutions to any given problem.

Rational minds often perceive more than merely one or two solutions to any given problem.

I'm quite certain though, you're very rational despite limiting yourself to only two solutions, and will rationalize that mental limitation as a strength. I look forward to it.

[hack89]

64. I certainly don't presume to be as rational, smart and erudite as you.

Last edited Wed Apr 12, 2017, 02:30 PM - Edit history (1)

but I am certainly glad I don't have your manners.

[MontanaMama]

2. Remember this?

[uponit7771]

47. Now passengers can get a friendly ass whoopin in place of a peaceful trip and the drinks.

[OKNancy]

3. new picture I hadn't seen

[renate]

7. wow... this is looking worse and worse for United by the minute

I wouldn't want to be in charge of PR for United right now.

I've always kind of thought of the airlines as interchangeable, and have chosen among them according to schedule and price, but "United" is now firmly in my mind as "We will make you bleed if we screw up."

[sheshe2]

9. He does not look good there.

[pokerfan]

16. holy crap...

[jmowreader]

5. They couldn't have put the four employees on the 9 pm flight?

I just checked. United flies from Chicago to Louisville four times a day: 11:55 am, 2:55 pm, 5:40 pm and 9 pm. What the hell was going on in Louisville that couldn't wait four hours?

[AgadorSparticus]

13. I think some of these employees get a little too power hungry in their

Limited positions and we end up with this kind of nonsense. I have seen attendants be absolutely rude to people for no reason other than the fact that they may just royally hate their job.

Like you pointed out, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why the staff couldnt take a later flight or take a shuttle. It wasn't that far away

[jmowreader]

15. Or even pay another airline to take them there

It would have cost $880 to get them there and they probably would have gone through Charlotte - the other airline servicing this route is American, and CLT is a massive AA hub - but that's cheap compared to the PR hit they've taken over this incident.

[MontanaMama]

57. As a business owner myself

You NEVER make a customer pay for a mistake that you made. Poor decision on every front. United didn't staff a flight properly and that's a problem they needed to solve without hurting anyone. We've made plenty of mistakes over the years...you've got to get creative quickly, solve the problem in the best interest of the customer and apologize and mean it. They are going to pay through the nose and they should. Hoping other airlines take notice.

[hack89]

18. I suspect Federal crew rest limits

They had to be in the cockpit by a certain time or they couldn't fly.

[OrwellwasRight]

30. That makes no sense.

You're saying there are rules against too much rest? That is not the way it works.

[hack89]

32. No. There are limits on how long they can go without rest

Which means they had to get to Louisville in the quickest way possible to ensure they still had time to fly their next assignment.

[OrwellwasRight]

35. I think we are coming about this from two different angles.

You seem to think that travel to and from your point of work counts as work. It does not.

If you are a flight attendant, you aren't working unless you are crewing a flight with the cabin door closed. So the travel time to Louisville does not count as work time even if you fly there on United. I don't understand your argument that having MORE time between shifts is prohibited. It's too little time between shifts that is a problem.

[hack89]

36. Lets see what the FAA has to say regarding what counts as flight duty time

Flight duty period. The allowable length of a flight duty period depends on when the pilot's day begins and the number of flight segments he or she is expected to fly, and ranges from 9-14 hours for single crew operations. The flight duty period begins when a flightcrew member is required to report for duty with the intention of conducting a flight and ends when the aircraft is parked after the last flight. It includes the period of time before a flight or between flights that a pilot is working without an intervening rest period. Flight duty includes deadhead transportation, training in an aircraft or flight simulator, and airport standby or reserve duty if these tasks occur before a flight or between flights without an intervening required rest period.

10-hour minimum rest period. The rule sets a 10-hour minimum rest period prior to the flight duty period, a two-hour increase over the previous rules. The new rule also mandates that a pilot must have an opportunity for eight hours of uninterrupted sleep within the 10-hour rest period.

https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=13273

[OrwellwasRight]

42. holy unfounded aggression batman

1) this regulation is about pilots. I specifically referenced flight attendants. The news stories spoke of a "4 person flight crew." Please tell me what flight out of Louisville requires 4 pilots?
2) you seem to assume the 4 were already on the clock. How do you know this? It's just as likely they were off the clock, and their shifts would start as soon as their assigned flight out of Louisville started, in which case getting there late is more off duty time, and not in violation of any rule.
3) nor do the stories contain one word about how much sleep the four people have or have not gotten, so your inclusion of the definition of the ten hour text period is irrelevant

[hack89]

44. You seem to have a large emotional investment in this issue

On the other hand, I don't really give a shit. So let's call it a day - it is clear you are are not interested in a discussion.

[OrwellwasRight]

59. Hilarious.

I'm the one with an emotional investment? I try to explain how we are approaching it from different angles -- this is quite polite and intended to resolve the conflict where both folks can save face. You persist in your point, denying the possibility that the flight crew had not yet begun any flight time (as that would undermine your insistence that they had to be there by time X or they legally couldn't fly). I explain how your point overlooks a number of other possibilities, and then you call me emotional. I think it is more that you can't admit you were only looking at this from one point of view. And that if the flight crew had not begun any flight time, they would not have been barred from crewing the plane had they arrived late. But sure, pretend you don't give a shit.

[hack89]

60. That's nice. nt

[DeminPennswoods]

48. Flight crew would be

pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer at least.

[OrwellwasRight]

58. Holy unfounded assumptions batman.

Many commercial flights do not have a flight engineer: (see, e.g., http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10387997/so-you-want-to-be-a-flight-engineer (particularly on short flights out of tiny airports. we are not talking about transpacific flights here)

Flight attendants are also part of the flight crew. So the fact there were four means they were not all pilots.

[Bengus81]

41. Then tell United to charter a freakin Lear and fly em away.....

Let the PAYING passangers stay on board and fly. NO ONE can tell me they couldn't find other flight transportation in a HUGE hub like Chicago.

[hack89]

45. ok. nt

[LanternWaste]

62. support that suspicion with evidence, and it may rise above simplistic allegation.

If you're able to support that suspicion with evidence and apply it validly to this particular instance, and it may rise above simplistic allegation designed to fit a pre-existing narrative.

[hack89]

63. Just voicing a casual opinion

I don't care that much about the issue - if proven wrong it won't hurt my feelings.

[WillowTree]

23. The 9 PM flight doesn't get in to Louisville until after 11 PM.

That would not have allowed the crew sufficient time to have the mandated rest break before their flight out in the morning.

[Alice11111]

6. United has had the worst employees since TWA went under

They must recruit them from violent prison populations, who have been kept in solitary, as they have neither social skills nor manners. They don't even try. They snap at you if you ask a question. Ignore you 95pc of the time. Will not help you under any circumstances. No matter when you try to go to the restroom, they tell you that you are in the way.
I could write a book of stories.
I wonder anout their pilots??

[AgadorSparticus]

14. I find that to be the case too and I used to fly a lot. Nowadays, i think southwest has happier

People working for them. I find swt to be friendlier and more helpful.

[Alice11111]

19. That Seems to be the consensus

[AngryAmish]

20. United has the worst employee relations I have ever seen.

The pilots hate the stewardesses, and that hate is returned.. ground crew hates both of them.

[Alice11111]

21. Yeah, it is a "trip" to fly them. The hate is raging.

I was landing in Chicago. An attendant, who had mentioned she was flying home to Chicago, was sitting across the aisle from me, fully dressed in uniform. I asked her a question about a well known store and if it was still on Michigan Avenue. Anyone from Chicago would have known this. She snapped, "how should I know. I work for United Airlines. We do not get paid enough to shop!"

I've asked questions on check-in, and been told, I don't know (and I don't care), why don't you ask on the plane.

Too much to write, but they are awful! They go out of their way to be awful!

[cwydro]

51. It has been a LOOONNGG time since the term "stewardess" was used.

They're referred to as "flight attendants."

Been awhile since you've flown, eh?

[Baconator]

56. What's the incentive?

Choice is limited at best and they know it.

I had lost luggage a few months ago and they were no help. Luckily I stuck one of those bluetooth trackers on it.

[Alice11111]

65. That's smart. Incentive? Even volunteers can be polite.

They are obviously pissed off, and it comes through loud and clear. Quit, take what you have in retirement, find another job. I know it is not so easy to change.

It's United's fault ...shit flows down to employees. Munoz was Wall Street's new darling. After how he handled this PR fiasco, I can see he squeezed every cent for shareholders, but he's a really shitty person. He deserved this. Hopefully, it will bring some changes in the awful industry...though United is the worst.

[Lars39]

8. Employees need to fight this, too, and everyone needs to back them up.

United is exposing their employees to a hostile work situation. The onus is on United to provide reserved seats for their employees on the flights without having to bump paying customers.

[WillowTree]

24. Not really. Read the back of your ticket the next time you fly.

It will no doubt be an education.

[Historic NY]

10. Simple solution was for United to deadhead on another airline......

with all the bullshit and delays they put this flight through. Many have agreements.

[MindPilot]

29. That was the first thing I thought of.

It's O'Hare...there are dozens of regional carriers that probably had empty seats. Hell, in a worst case senerio, there are likely pilots hanging around one of the many flight schools who would give them a ride just to put a couple more hours in the logbook.

[Foamfollower]

11. Everybody on the flight has a lawsuit.

Just sitting there watching the event will be worth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Generic Brad]

12. This is going to cost them dearly

It will cost them hundreds of thousands more than that in terms of lawsuits, reputation, and future sales. How United cannot comprehend that is incomprehensible.

[Alice11111]

22. ...but I still HAVE to fly them for one of the places I go.

Maybe they will be bought out.

[Henry Krinkle]

25. "Everybody on the flight has a lawsuit"?

I know just the man to take on the man...

[img][/img]

It's the attitude and sue happy shit like this why our court system is so fucked up.

[Foamfollower]

26. WTF?

Seriousy,

Everybody on the flight has a legitimate lawsuit against United. I predict all of them are settled out of court, too. United will lose potentially billions over this in settlements and lost business.

With any luck, they'll go bankrupt.

[Henry Krinkle]

27. For what... emotional distress?

Oh, because United has deep pockets and can afford it?

Greed comes in all forms... it's not just for corporations, CEO's and the wealthy.

I can guarantee you one thing, if I were on that jury they wouldn't see a penny.

Not that it matters, UA will probably cave and settle out of court (shame on them if they do),
with the lawyers getting the lions share of any settlement.

[Foamfollower]

28. Wow. That is a 100% rightwing stance.

Emotional distress is real. You heard the emotional distress in the pasengers during the incident on video. They are due compensation for such distress under the law.

Why do you hate the law?

[Henry Krinkle]

34. Cue up the grief counselors, they have to get in on the action too.

Wow. That is a 100% rightwing stance.

No, it's a 100% sense of decency, fairness and doing the right thing WRT the court system regardless of the
defendants financial situation or who they are.

Emotional distress is real

Yep, and it suddenly gets even more realer when the distressed smell money.

This was some guy getting roughed up on an airplane... not a beheading, immolation or Rodney King beat down
at the hands of UA personnel.

As long as it's profitable for the "distressed" to overreact to the situation, and all they had witnessed
was the victim stub his toe while being evicted, they'll claim that they're scared for life

Why do you hate the law?

Why do you love contingency lawyers and class action lawsuits?

[Foamfollower]

37. Every American has a right to having their case heard before a court of law.

Why do you hate America and the constitution?

[Henry Krinkle]

39. Just because they have a right, doesn't *make it right*.

I might not have as much of a problem with bullshit lawsuits if there was at least some form of loser pays
system in place, but that will never happen.

[Foamfollower]

40. So now you are the absolute judge o what is and is not a "bullshit lawsuit"???

I assure you, there is nothing bullshit about any lawsuit coming out of this debacle.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. The airlines never miss an opportunity to screw or nickle and dime the average passenger, do they?

Why would you expect the average passenger to treat the airlines any differently in return?

[Alpeduez21]

54. I love contingency lawyers and class action lawsuits

because under the current Republican administration attitude they are the only check on unfettered abuse of us normal.

So yeah, stick it to the man.

[uponit7771]

46. So what do you think is the deterrent for UA actions? The "free market"?!

[The Big Ragu]

50. "sue happy?"

Sounds like you're a tort reform advocate?

A VERY reactionary, divisive, conservative, republican position to take.

How, pray tell is our court system fucked up?

[bagelsforbreakfast]

38. Wow! Never suspected...

there were this many United Employees on DU.

[nini]

43. They should all sue the airline for being traumatized by all that

I'm not normally pro-suing but why not in this case?

[DeminPennswoods]

49. Been on an overbooked flight

As it turned out in the end, there actually was an empty seat for the one overbooked passenger, but before that, the airline began by saying the flight was overbooked and asked if anyone was willing to leave, then they started offering incentives. Why in the world United didn't announce they had a flight crew needing to board and asked for volunteers willing to exit and, if none, started to offer a free flight to any destination, paying for overnight accomodations, etc, is beyond me.

[geek tragedy]

53. They did offer compensation and boosted the offer once.

But being the greedy bastards they are, they called in their de facto private mercenaries to crack down.