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Heartstrings

(7,349 posts)
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 05:39 AM Mar 2017

Why are Americans so resistant to Universal Healthcare?

when it's in their best interest on all counts...so my taxes pay for a little boy to get a heart transplant in Oklahoma or pays for lifesaving heart meds for a woman in Florida? It's called being a fucking human being...

I just don't understand why this is such a difficult concept...pathetic and sad...

Happy Sunday!

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Why are Americans so resistant to Universal Healthcare? (Original Post) Heartstrings Mar 2017 OP
They are brainwashed and too lazy to investigate facts for themselves. nikibatts Mar 2017 #1
Makes me craaaazy!!! Heartstrings Mar 2017 #2
True. ...and they are too afraid of the truth to investigate the facts. It challenges their values. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #62
For a long time canetoad Mar 2017 #3
It's "socialized medicine," & the RW says it's evil, though Alice11111 Mar 2017 #58
Mindless hyperpartisanship that has become Hortensis Mar 2017 #82
an ugly truth DonCoquixote Mar 2017 #4
Good post. Warren DeMontague Mar 2017 #6
No offense and thanks for the insight! Heartstrings Mar 2017 #8
Good analysis. Mendocino Mar 2017 #15
Very good and thoughtful post. mountain grammy Mar 2017 #20
Provocative, in a good way. Thx Alice11111 Mar 2017 #59
Well said. K&R (eom) CanSocDem Mar 2017 #96
Well Stated.... Must be a History Major WiffenPoof Mar 2017 #104
The magic word is taxes. So many people have become convinced that paying taxes Arkansas Granny Mar 2017 #5
And this while taking your Sculpin Beauregard Mar 2017 #29
Republicans love to kill things - it curtails their "fun"... n/m bagelsforbreakfast Mar 2017 #7
They think it IS fun! Like Paul Ryan admitted after the Ryancare bill was withdrawn...they have been Alice11111 Mar 2017 #60
Because FOX NEWS TOLD THEM it was evil!! yuiyoshida Mar 2017 #9
Yes. This. GoCubsGo Mar 2017 #28
!!! Alice11111 Mar 2017 #61
It's not just using your taxes to pay for a little boy to get a heart transplant LastLiberal in PalmSprings Mar 2017 #10
Because they don't want to share anything with THOSE people. Thor_MN Mar 2017 #11
This entire country was founded on distrust of government. Agschmid Mar 2017 #12
Distrust of the throne and parliament was neither the catalyst nor the reason. LanternWaste Mar 2017 #97
It cannot pass the corrupt congress. JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2017 #13
Three reasons: (1) propaganda works, and they are relentlessness propagandized with the most tblue37 Mar 2017 #14
Because it levels the playing field, treating all, including the elite equally.... Historic NY Mar 2017 #16
Yes, blasphemy. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #63
The ones who oppose it think it will lead to worse care oberliner Mar 2017 #17
Another question - why do we have healthcare for profit in this country? smirkymonkey Mar 2017 #18
No brainer, the health insurance industry. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #70
Should doctors and nurses be public employees? HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #78
redumbliCONs have spent the last two decades bad mouthing every other democratisphere Mar 2017 #19
Because, when Dems were fighting, and I mean fighting, mountain grammy Mar 2017 #21
You pay the same for health insurance either way you cut it elias7 Mar 2017 #22
Spite. nt LaydeeBug Mar 2017 #23
Because ultimately, the right-wing faction believes some people deserve to die. Tatiana Mar 2017 #24
They've been told the countries with universal healthcare Mariana Mar 2017 #25
Yes, this and waiting forever to see a doctor radical noodle Mar 2017 #50
Because the "S" word--socialism has been misrepresented ismnotwasm Mar 2017 #26
Selfishness mainly Freddie Mar 2017 #27
Because just about everything they "know" is a lie, half truth or irrelevancy. Bozvotros Mar 2017 #30
Medicare eligible as of 1-1-2017 Heartstrings Mar 2017 #32
Medicare is nuts too. Bozvotros Mar 2017 #33
I'm on Medicare radical noodle Mar 2017 #52
Plan F is a Medicare Supplement,which many people can't afford, when paying for Plan D and Rxs Alice11111 Mar 2017 #72
It is more expensive because it pays everything radical noodle Mar 2017 #74
I have it too. BCBS Alice11111 Mar 2017 #83
You are a perfect example of how healthcare can go so wrong radical noodle Mar 2017 #98
They are actually better, thank you. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #99
Sorry for your friend. The pretence that she can do that Alice11111 Mar 2017 #101
Good points. It is like a sick game to figure out. Then, it's got cha, you got the wrong one. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #71
Medicare is adequate, but far too complicated HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #79
Although status quo is insane it still works for a lot of people Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2017 #31
Of course it is. Bozvotros Mar 2017 #35
The question is why are Americans collectively so hesitant Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2017 #49
The selling point is that you are human and that it is fair for everyone to have the same HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #81
Good point. I think of it often. Many Repubs have govt Alice11111 Mar 2017 #84
Yeah, I think this is much bigger than some of the pop-sociology reasons that have been offered. cemaphonic Mar 2017 #80
Americans are largely belligerent, hateful, stupid racists The Big Ragu Mar 2017 #34
Well, that was blunt. However, true. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #64
They don't believe healthcare to be a right. QED Mar 2017 #36
Because some people consider themselves "macho" BumRushDaShow Mar 2017 #37
I'm not sure of the "built on" arguement... LakeArenal Mar 2017 #38
Canadas founding was not that much different than us. Jim Beard Mar 2017 #42
Brainwashing about "socialism" milestogo Mar 2017 #39
It's because they don't want to subsidize the expenses of the costliest patients Calculating Mar 2017 #40
They do get livid Bozvotros Mar 2017 #44
We're already taxed to pay for expensive healthcare Mariana Mar 2017 #66
That's a classic masturbatory myth that is deliberately promoted by greedy pyschopaths Azathoth Mar 2017 #68
still it could happen to them treestar Mar 2017 #107
because many see it as taking from them to give to those less deserving JI7 Mar 2017 #41
Yep loyalsister Mar 2017 #43
Welfare queens in Cadillacs. moondust Mar 2017 #45
Because if they get it, people they dislike and resent might get it, too. Can't have that. n/t Different Drummer Mar 2017 #46
It's because we delusionally self-mythologize our country and supposed 'exceptionalism' TransitJohn Mar 2017 #47
Yes, I agree. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #67
Where's your proof that Americans are resistant to it? leftstreet Mar 2017 #48
A very good question. I know there are right-wingers who are against it when in fact raccoon Mar 2017 #89
Ignorance. H2O Man Mar 2017 #51
Funny that people don't react to mandated cilla4progress Mar 2017 #53
What is really sad is that these fucking bastards that say no to single payer Doreen Mar 2017 #54
absolutely gopiscrap Mar 2017 #55
Well said. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #65
Socialist Equals Communist Bayard Mar 2017 #56
For sure! This time go in for the kill. Done with making nice, while the Iagos do us in. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #73
I got mine so fuck you Azathoth Mar 2017 #57
The ones I know do see it that way...fear of the people who couldnt get in the Titanic life boats. Alice11111 Mar 2017 #69
I really like the Titanic analogy.... Heartstrings Mar 2017 #85
Fake News Jarqui Mar 2017 #75
Conservatives are scared to death they won't get that transplant Warpy Mar 2017 #76
They love universal health care HoneyBadger Mar 2017 #77
You have a point -- "Medicare for all" is probably an easier sale to white wingers than "univeral Hoyt Mar 2017 #86
Many fear they will be worse off than before, or fear the cost. Yo_Mama Mar 2017 #87
"Why shud Ah pay fer blaks 'n Mezz'kins in-shurince?" VOX Mar 2017 #88
Sadly, it's not JUST "blaks n Mezz'kins" . . . HughBeaumont Mar 2017 #92
Absolutely true... VOX Mar 2017 #106
A lot of reasons ck4829 Mar 2017 #90
DMV ryan_cats Mar 2017 #91
Greed, political bias, and lack of compassion. Many people liquid diamond Mar 2017 #93
freedom... Demonaut Mar 2017 #94
Too many Americans refuse to support anything that might help another person. LonePirate Mar 2017 #95
Basically, I think it comes down to clever PR DFW Mar 2017 #100
Publicly funded insurance works the same way as privately funded, ronnie624 Mar 2017 #102
Why don't we say Medicare for all. There is no ambiguity what that means still_one Mar 2017 #103
"All for one, and that ONE is ME!" HughBeaumont Mar 2017 #105
The can afford healthcare sellitman Mar 2017 #108

canetoad

(17,190 posts)
3. For a long time
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 05:47 AM
Mar 2017

It was the cold war/socialist/commie thing. That's in the past.

These days, it's down to the pure, nasty politics of resentment.

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
58. It's "socialized medicine," & the RW says it's evil, though
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 01:53 AM
Mar 2017

they haven't a clue what it means. Geez, taking the mafia middle man, the health insurance companies, out of the system, so patient's could get treatment, we can't let them figure that out. We must bury the facts, in the name of God and the insurance industry.

How great would it be for businesses if they didn't have to worry about insurance for their employees? Huge reduction in overhead. Wind to their sails. Bury this obvious fact.

How much would we save if children and adults could get Healthcare before a minor problem becomes a permanent life threatening problem? No common sense allowed.

Why are we the only country in the western civilized world
that pursues this indulgence of greed on the sick with budget busting, backbreaking, life destroying consequences?

I think it is still the ignorance of the socialist threat, AND pure nasty resentment that anyone but the rich should have dignity of life.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
82. Mindless hyperpartisanship that has become
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 03:59 AM
Mar 2017

irrationally hostile and downright immoral.

But let's toss in how this happened: Huge money was spent to grow normal right-wing resistance to progressive programs far beyond what it had been -- with the end goal of eliminating most to all (depending on how extreme the ideology) taxes and regulations on the wealthy--permanently.

Obamacare was a real setback for anti-tax plutocrats, to put it mildly. They were planning to destroy Medicare and the VA when they had a whole new huge redistributive program they had to destroy first. Ryan's disastrous "little" step toward dismantling the ACA would have cut nearly $1,000,000,000,000 (trillion!) from its budget. Poor dears...

Btw, the $1 trillion "saved" was intended to temporarily offset big tax cuts planned with their big tax "reform" package.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
4. an ugly truth
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 06:07 AM
Mar 2017

There's some ugly facts here. Warning this will probably offend a lot of people. You cannot forget one thing about America; this nation was founded by people who had a lot of violence done against them, especially in the United Kingdom. The reason why we have so many Protestants, especially Calvinist like the Baptists, is that European nations treated them like crap. By treating these people like crap, European nations used the idea of charity and aid as a means of social warfare, note I did not say social engineering, I said warfare. If you can feed the sector of society that obeys you, and also point to that of her part of society and say "God wants them to die, aren't you happy you are not them" you have a means of keeping the people who want your head divided. All European nations did this, but you excel that it like England, because they used religion to divide the Celts who they dominated.

Now comes colonialism, which is very good for the kings and queens in two ways: one, it allows you to go ahead and get rid of a lot of those riffraff outcast who would otherwise be staying in your own country and waiting for revolution to happen. It is no accident that England set many of its Calvinist to America, in particular the parts that are now considered red states. It's no accident that the Confederate battle flag is basically a Union Jack modified.

The X-shaped bars represent Saint Patrick and Saint Andrew, the patron saints of Scotland and Ireland who happen to have a lot of those social outcast English liked to kill. The more typical cross is the symbol of St. George, the English saint associated with imperialism and the Church of England, so it's no accident that when the battle flag of Dixie was made, it celebrated the Celtic heritage, and snubbed the English one.

So what is all this bit about Celts and flags have to do with healthcare? The people that made up America were outcast that were used to having to fend for themselves and also who were told they could go from being dirt poor to getting land. All they have to do was kill whoever the home country considered needed killing, take their land, and to remember to send all that sugar tobacco and cotton to the home country. When we kicked the English out, we changed empires into corporations, so that whole generations of people, black and white were always kept in an debt so that a corporation can demand the fruits of their labors, and sadly, many of those churches thought that was a good thing. The system kept people busy, making sure that life have to be as trouble lest they start doing things like reading books.

Does anyone think it is an accident that the Republicans are trying to peel back child labor laws and anything that allows people to avoid and pay debt? A free people will demand respect and accountability, something our lead have avoided since the very founding of the nation. Of course one of the main ways that even middle-class people get in the debt is healthcare. If you can make even rich people fear about one thing can go ahead and make paupers of their children, you have control. I'm not talking about political power, I am talking control. Of course, since many of those people that founded our nation were used to having to take something from each other rather than add it into a pool, you will have people fighting for pennies instead of the dollars they could save. It is the main reason why, as you nation as we are, the government and basic culture has remained the same since 1776, and that's if you don't count the colonial era, which honestly we should.

Think of how many nations have at the same governments since 1776. Think of how many of those nations have not only maintain their original land, but tripled in size and population. I know that the phrase "exceptional nation" is overused and misused, especially when it is set as a compliment (which it is not very often). However, the truth is we cannot overlook the fact that we are different than most nations. Yes Canada and Australia were both colonial Enterprises, however, perhaps by the nature of having very hostile geography, a.k.a. hostile Canadian winters and hostile Australian heat, or by the nature that England did not use them as a direct steam release for the Calvinist movements that were literally threatening to destroy the United Kingdom at the top United States was founded, they were different. It's odd to think that the fact that America was so ready to grow all that sugar tobacco and cotton could've been a cultural pain, but it was.

So to sum it up, America from its founding was made of people were used to looking at each other of some measure of hostility, and they thought of government largess as a political weapon to be used to enslave and control. It's easy to go ahead and judge, the fact is the people who founded this nation as a colonial enterprise did not want various people to trust each other, if the French did not go ahead and do their best to support the Thomas Jefferson's and George Washington's, we might very well still be part of what eventually became Canada. FDR did a lot to undo this sort of culture, but keep my the Democrats only get a chance to speak when the Republican administration has done a terrible job of crashing the car.

Mendocino

(7,509 posts)
15. Good analysis.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:39 AM
Mar 2017

I quite agree that the ultimate goal of the hard right is to push this country back into a feudal state. They want an uneducated and desperate society willing to work for virtually for nothing for the benefit of the few.

mountain grammy

(26,655 posts)
20. Very good and thoughtful post.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 09:50 AM
Mar 2017

You've summed it up nicely, especially this: "Democrats only get a chance to speak when the Republican administration has done a terrible job of crashing the car."

WiffenPoof

(2,404 posts)
104. Well Stated.... Must be a History Major
Tue Mar 28, 2017, 06:34 AM
Mar 2017

I had recently learned (to my dismay), that my heritage of Scots-Irish ultimately became the people I have despised most in my adulthood... The so-called "poor white trash" or (more kindly) the Hillbillies of the deep South.

Love your reference of the Confederate Battle Flag (stars and bars) which reflects even the current day national flag of Scotland.

Arkansas Granny

(31,531 posts)
5. The magic word is taxes. So many people have become convinced that paying taxes
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 06:07 AM
Mar 2017

is nothing more than legalized theft. They don't want their money to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them.

It doesn’t help that opponents refer to it as socialized medicine. That makes it sound like a welfare program which would benefit all those freeloaders out there.

Sculpin Beauregard

(1,046 posts)
29. And this while taking your
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 04:11 PM
Mar 2017

Money to pay for their Govt pensions and their healthcare.

Also, who bailed out the astonishing thieves of Wall Street? Why isn't THAT socialist?

Ugh, it is sickening.

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
60. They think it IS fun! Like Paul Ryan admitted after the Ryancare bill was withdrawn...they have been
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 02:23 AM
Mar 2017

Good at destroying, but it is much harder to create (paraphrasing). I despise him, but he did own up, unlike Dumpty Diapers, who had not even read, much less understood, the bill. Frankly, DT didn't give a damn, it was just about winning and satisfying his vengefulness against Obama. Ryan cared a lot about his draconian take down of the people, but he was smart enough to tell DT to withdraw it. DT still played chicken until the end, and then took no responsibility...everyone's fault but his owm. What a vengeful, petty, pathetic fragment he is.

10. It's not just using your taxes to pay for a little boy to get a heart transplant
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 06:55 AM
Mar 2017

It's using your taxes to pay for a black or Hispanic or other person of color's little boy to get a heart transplant. We all know that "they" are just looking for a government handout without working. (sarcasm)

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
11. Because they don't want to share anything with THOSE people.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:02 AM
Mar 2017

If they can't delude themselves into thinking that they are better than "THEM", it is an uncomfortable space. They are miserable if they can't have their "ism"s.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
12. This entire country was founded on distrust of government.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:12 AM
Mar 2017

We literally overthrew people who governed us... it's the reason for a lot of our issues as a country.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
97. Distrust of the throne and parliament was neither the catalyst nor the reason.
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 04:42 PM
Mar 2017

Distrust of the throne and parliament was neither the catalyst nor the reason for the conflict.

Jesus... are people learning history via bumper stickers and the back of cereal boxes now?

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,367 posts)
13. It cannot pass the corrupt congress.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:14 AM
Mar 2017

The insurance industry will buy politicians, hire the politicians' relatives, whatever it takes to keep the non-productive-but-lucrative insurance industry going.

Same as when the pharmaceutical industry bought congress during Medicare Part D vote, in order to forbid Medicare from negotiating better drug prices.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/4/821644/-

tblue37

(65,488 posts)
14. Three reasons: (1) propaganda works, and they are relentlessness propagandized with the most
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:19 AM
Mar 2017

advanced propaganda techniques, (2) they have been taught to hate the very idea of taxes (even on the wealthiest) and to misunderstand what taxes can do for us, and (3) they hate the idea that a benefit paid for by taxes might go to PoC.

Historic NY

(37,453 posts)
16. Because it levels the playing field, treating all, including the elite equally....
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 09:14 AM
Mar 2017

some people are special.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
17. The ones who oppose it think it will lead to worse care
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 09:15 AM
Mar 2017

Long wait times to see doctors. That sort of thing.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
18. Another question - why do we have healthcare for profit in this country?
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 09:21 AM
Mar 2017

Can you imagine if the fire and police agencies worked this way? It should be a basic right for any nation that collects taxes from it's citizens.

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
78. Should doctors and nurses be public employees?
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 03:47 AM
Mar 2017

Like police and fire? I think that it would be a good start.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
19. redumbliCONs have spent the last two decades bad mouthing every other
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 09:39 AM
Mar 2017

Countries Universal Healthcare programs. redumbliCONs ONLY want their free market healthcare, attached to wallstreet, where prices and costs are outrageousley insane and ever escalating. redumbliCONs only care about making the wealthy wealthier and NEVER will care about keeping their constituents healthy.

mountain grammy

(26,655 posts)
21. Because, when Dems were fighting, and I mean fighting,
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 09:53 AM
Mar 2017

to pass Medicare in the 60's, St Ronnie made a commercial whining how someday our grandchildren will ask us what America was like when it was free, you know, before Medicare..

I remember my mom watching that commercial and saying, you dumb old man. There won't be any grandparents if we don't pass Medicare!

elias7

(4,027 posts)
22. You pay the same for health insurance either way you cut it
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 02:04 PM
Mar 2017

Whether that be taken out of your wages for employer covered insurance, taken out of your earnings and tax deducted if you buy it yourself, or pay it through higher income tax for "socialized" coverage. it all ends up the same. Someone needs to explain this to those who think they'll pay more for single payer...

Tatiana

(14,167 posts)
24. Because ultimately, the right-wing faction believes some people deserve to die.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 02:21 PM
Mar 2017

They actually don't mind a class (or maybe caste) system here. They see certain people as not worthy to keep alive.

That is that sad, but honest truth. They could care less about the elderly, except, of course, when it's themselves. Witness this debate from back in 2009:

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/13/limit-on-health-care-for-elderly-terminally-ill/

Instead of asking if we should "limit" care for elderly people, how about asking how we can bring the costs down and treat them in the best, most comfortable manner?

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
25. They've been told the countries with universal healthcare
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 02:35 PM
Mar 2017

have shitty healthcare. They've been told this for years and years. They believe that the old people, the disabled, and people with expensive to treat conditions in these countries are routinely written off and left to die in order to save money. They believe most people who need lifesaving procedures die before they can get them because of waiting lists. And so on.

ismnotwasm

(42,014 posts)
26. Because the "S" word--socialism has been misrepresented
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 02:41 PM
Mar 2017

What I tell people is this "Universal health care is the goal--everyone should agree with. The only thing to disagree with is how we get there"

Freddie

(9,275 posts)
27. Selfishness mainly
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 03:18 PM
Mar 2017

I'm presuming you mean single payer and not "achieving universal healthcare" by a Swiss-style system like the ACA is emulating.
Everyone knows how we ended up with the employer-provided health instance norm back in the 40's. For most people, back then, not having insurance was not the worst thing in the world. A doctor visit was $20, a standard stay in the hospital (childbirth, appendectomy) might have been $50. Penicillin and aspirin were cheap. There were no CT scans, MRIs, etc. Got cancer, heart disease, complications in childbirth? You died.
So we limped along for years until advances in medicine made it impossible for all but the very rich to "self-pay". And most able-bodied adults and their families got good, comprehensive insurance mostly paid by their employers. These people - many of whom can't comprehend that not everyone has this privilege- are not willing to give this up for something unsure and possibly not as good as what they have now.
And there's the bogeyman of "higher taxes!" Not considering that the higher taxes would be offset by no insurance premiums, no insurance coming out of your paycheck and your employer paying in a flat % of wages rather than your insurance. The majority of employers would come out ahead.
So the only way to sell this would be to make sure that the health care we get under single payer would be as good as most employer plans.

Bozvotros

(785 posts)
30. Because just about everything they "know" is a lie, half truth or irrelevancy.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 04:13 PM
Mar 2017

We don't even recognize how ridiculously inadequate Medicare is. We need to have part A, B, C, D? Plus your choice of 50 supplements to fill in the holes? Like seniors need to approach choosing healthcare like it was part lottery and part Chinese food menu? And that doesn't even touch end of life custodial care needs. If your misfortune is to need close supervision and assistance with basic physical care because you have an incurable debilitating condition we can't consider that health care. Sorry.

Heartstrings

(7,349 posts)
32. Medicare eligible as of 1-1-2017
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 04:37 PM
Mar 2017

luckily I have some background in the HII, it's massively confusing trying to choose a supplement. Cannot imagine trying to decipher it without some knowledge, even basic.

Bozvotros

(785 posts)
33. Medicare is nuts too.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 07:06 PM
Mar 2017

There's no reason to have four parts to Medicare. Part A just covers hospitalization. Why did we decide to prioritize only hospital payment with our payroll deduction? Why isn't major medical and pharmaceutical costs part of our Medicare deduction during our working years? I'm sure there's a very good reason that doesn't involve lobbying by hospitals, big pharma and insurance companies. Or blood sucking parasitic vermin. But I repeat myself.

radical noodle

(8,013 posts)
52. I'm on Medicare
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 11:09 PM
Mar 2017

and I don't find it to be inadequate. The good thing is that if for example, you choose Plan F, then all Plan F policies pay the same thing. I do think there should be better management of end of life planning and assisted living because that's pretty unavailable to most people.

radical noodle

(8,013 posts)
74. It is more expensive because it pays everything
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 03:19 AM
Mar 2017

It's what my husband and I have and we never pay a dime, but there are other plans that are cheaper and pay less. Part D can (and should be) shopped every year because that's the best way to get good deals. It's very easy too, since Medicare has an online questionnaire that allows us enter our meds and a list comes up with the best plans for those meds. Then we compare them and take the one best suited to us.

It isn't all that difficult except that some people think they can get something for nothing, which rarely works in their favor. Medicare Advantage has shown to be a problem in some areas. Docs don't like it and I know of at least one company that folded and left their clients high and dry.

With Medicare A & B, along with Plan F and Part D we pay about $346 per month (each). I can tell you that when I was getting insurance through my employer, the last year I worked there (4-1/2 years ago) cost a little over $1000 per month for each of us, $2000 per month for both. My employer paid it but I was the controller so I know what we paid. Medicare is a good deal.

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
83. I have it too. BCBS
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 04:06 AM
Mar 2017

My costs are about $450+, plus a lot on meds, some of which are not covered, Cigna. One reason it is more expensive is I live in a low population state, so there are few providers.
Also, I have a disability, so they charge more for Supp F and Plan D.
You have convinced me to shop more for plan D. The first year was good, but now they cover much less. I paid out of pocket this month around $700 for Rx on my Plan D. (My eyedrops, which I am supposed to take every morning and night, I take once about every 3 days or when my eyes really hurt or I can't see. My Dr. has written and called the insurance company. Just one example.) That, to me, is not good Healthcare. There are many of us who take only minimal amounts of our medications because of cost, but it causes continuing damage to our health.
I was transferred off Obamacare to Medicare because I had a Disabilty. That was okay though. It is more complicated, and I pay more overall and more for Rx. It is much better than the private group in terms of cost, but my income is low now.

I was on a group work for $1200 month. As I was jumping on Obamacare as fast as it was available, my work went to $1600. Private business as a lawyer, so I paid everything. I had lost over $200,000 in savings on medical bills, plus not working. Houses were paid off, but I had to mortgage. (Car ran stop sign. 1 dead. I lived.) Obamacare was very good, a blessing to me. I'm one of the people Paul Ryan dreams about, who lost everything because of failures in the healthcare system...the thought of it just makes him high on endorphins. (I could easily say it in uncouth terms.) He tried to get his dream bill through, so there would be many more of us. The Repubs just want to increase the divide in the class structure. Roman aristocracy.

radical noodle

(8,013 posts)
98. You are a perfect example of how healthcare can go so wrong
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 08:52 PM
Mar 2017

and shows just some of the things that need to be fixed. I wish they'd start by trying to fix the cost of prescription drugs which would take some negotiating but might help.

I have a friend with Multiple Myeloma and after trying many treatments that don't seem to work for her, they want her to take something that costs... wait for it... $16,000 per MONTH. Who could afford that?

I hope things start to go better for you.

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
101. Sorry for your friend. The pretence that she can do that
Tue Mar 28, 2017, 02:56 AM
Mar 2017

Is insane, rspecially while sick. So hypocritical. Repubs are robots without hearts.

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
71. Good points. It is like a sick game to figure out. Then, it's got cha, you got the wrong one.
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 02:55 AM
Mar 2017

...and that's the best part of our healthcare system.

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
79. Medicare is adequate, but far too complicated
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 03:50 AM
Mar 2017

We need one federal program that provides free health care for all til death and with death benefits. Nice and simple.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
31. Although status quo is insane it still works for a lot of people
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 04:23 PM
Mar 2017

I completely support universal healthcare, but I would be lying if I said that the health insurance I have received through my employers wasn't excellent.

Bozvotros

(785 posts)
35. Of course it is.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 07:16 PM
Mar 2017

And it should be available to everyone. The feds could increase Medicare deductions to cover a good coverage Health Care plan throughout your lifespan and your employer could increase your salary by the amount they were spending on your health insurance.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
49. The question is why are Americans collectively so hesitant
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 09:19 PM
Mar 2017

The answer is if you're in any sort of skilled, unionized or public sector employment the status quo is probably somewhere between good to great. So you're trying to sell a solution to a problem a lot of people just won't perceive to exist or believe will be a worse personal outcome.

I support universal healthcare, but don't ask me how to sell that to those who like myself have had good to great coverage from the time they started working.

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
81. The selling point is that you are human and that it is fair for everyone to have the same
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 03:54 AM
Mar 2017

Not for someone to have better healthcare than the person next to them.

There is no reason that a member of Congress should have better healthcare than a worker at McDs.

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
84. Good point. I think of it often. Many Repubs have govt
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 04:29 AM
Mar 2017

subsidized insurance! I know of about 20 who rage against Obamacare because of the subsidies. Yet, through coverage by state hospitals, teacher insurance, universities, government employees, government contractors, Congress, THEY get subsidies, for which the private sector, small businesses, owners and workers, pay more in taxes, and more in insurance premiums to offset their low rates.

The hypocrisy and ignorance drives me crazy!

I wasn't a Sanders supporter (but I would have been if he were the nominee), but I am now. I just wish he were at least 10 years younger, and could make it for 12 years.
I have an Aunt and Uncle mid 80s, who still work 60+ hours per week, though they are wealthy, and their minds are sharp...so, who knows, maybe Bernie can make it.

cemaphonic

(4,138 posts)
80. Yeah, I think this is much bigger than some of the pop-sociology reasons that have been offered.
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 03:51 AM
Mar 2017

Old people and middle-class people with good jobs with good benefits already get good healthcare, and they are massive and reliable voting blocs.

A lot of the political will for Obamacare only came about because even people in those categories were starting to feel the effects of our horribly inefficient system. (rapidly rising premiums, lifetime caps, preexisting conditions being the main ones.)

BumRushDaShow

(129,491 posts)
37. Because some people consider themselves "macho"
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 07:16 PM
Mar 2017

I don't know how many people I have talked to over the years who claimed that they were "never sick a day in their lives".... and it spirals downhill from there.

LakeArenal

(28,845 posts)
38. I'm not sure of the "built on" arguement...
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 07:20 PM
Mar 2017

Australia was founded by the most violent and downtrodden folks. They don't seem nearly as dysfunctional as we are.
That doesn't account for the complete disrespect for education and complete lack of empathy by the very people that would benefit most.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
39. Brainwashing about "socialism"
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 07:23 PM
Mar 2017

Oh, they pay such high taxes...

Oh, they wait in line forever...

Oh, their healthcare isn't as good as ours...

Calculating

(2,957 posts)
40. It's because they don't want to subsidize the expenses of the costliest patients
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 07:23 PM
Mar 2017

As a healthy 20-30 year old, is it right that somebody should need to pay higher taxes to provide free healthcare to a morbidly obese cigarette smoker with diabetes who is costing 20-30x what their yearly healthcare costs? How about all of the old people who might use up $100k or more in medical expenses just to prolong their life a few more years? The costliest patients account for the VAST majority of medical expenses in this country. People get especially touchy because many of these expenses are the result of poor lifestyle choices. Obesity, alcoholism, cigarette smoking, people who break a limb skiing or doing other extreme sports, drug users, people with AIDS, etc. The healthy productive people tend to get positively livid at the thought of paying higher taxes to subsidize the medical expenses of unhealthy lifestyles.

Bozvotros

(785 posts)
44. They do get livid
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:15 PM
Mar 2017

Last edited Mon Mar 27, 2017, 08:24 AM - Edit history (1)

Until they get a particularly virulent disease or cancer, lose their job, can't get insured, have a handicapped child or spouse etcetera. Then they lose some of that lividness.

And those healthy young people don't stay that way forever. The last few years and particularly the last few weeks of life are the most expensive part of National Health Care. That's why there's been a big push have everyone have living wills. And I've been amazed to see how many people who trash Medicaid as a big waste suddenly lawyer up with estate attorneys when their wealthy parents need to go into a nursing home. Funny that.

And let's just put it this way.... there's a lot of unhealthy people in Trump country who don't have any problem with showing up in an emergency room for their free emergency gummint Healthcare.

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
66. We're already taxed to pay for expensive healthcare
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 02:36 AM
Mar 2017

for old people, including those who have made lousy decisions and ruined their health through their own behavior. I don't see many people up in arms and demanding an end to Medicare because of that.

Azathoth

(4,611 posts)
68. That's a classic masturbatory myth that is deliberately promoted by greedy pyschopaths
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 02:43 AM
Mar 2017

Every rugged individualist asshole fancies himself a veritable Jack LaLane because he doesn't smoke (well, except for those few years in his teens, and his twenties, and one or two in his thirties) and hits the gym twice a week to watch TV pump iron (which does nothing for his cardiovascular health) and takes expensive vitamin supplements (which scientifically do nothing). The guy down the street is overweight because he's lazy and made poor life choices, but I'm overweight with heart disease because it's genetic and I have a slow metabolism. Yeah sure. This hypocrisy is cartoonish. Obesity, for instance, is so widespread that, statistically speaking, anyone who sneers at paying higher taxes to cover people suffering with it is either sneering at herself, or at her future self, or at a family member.

The simple truth is that younger people are healthier and older people are sicker. It works that way whether you're talking cats or antelopes or humans. Almost half of the top 5% of healthcare spenders are 65+. And the chronic conditions in that group tend to be things like hypertension and cancer and diabetes, not BASE jumping injuries and drug-using AIDS patients. The 30-year-old who doesn't want to pay for some 60-year-old's "lifestyle choices" will be screaming for that help when he turns 60.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
107. still it could happen to them
Tue Mar 28, 2017, 09:30 AM
Mar 2017

why focus so much on judging others?

And they may be drinking and smoking too.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
43. Yep
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:05 PM
Mar 2017

And there are people who truly believe that some don't deserve to have healthcare.
I once read an argument that prison inmates should not be fed, much less have access to healthcare.

moondust

(20,006 posts)
45. Welfare queens in Cadillacs.
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:27 PM
Mar 2017

Moochers. They could afford health care in an unregulated marketplace if they would get up off their lazy butts and get a job and not spend all their money on iPhones, dammit!

Neoliberals and other greed monkeys probably say health care is a commodity to be bought and sold like doughnuts or anything else without interference from the big bad gubmint.

TransitJohn

(6,932 posts)
47. It's because we delusionally self-mythologize our country and supposed 'exceptionalism'
Sun Mar 26, 2017, 08:38 PM
Mar 2017

Most Americans truly believe we are better than the rest of the world, so we shouldn't do things like other civilized countries. Or something.

raccoon

(31,125 posts)
89. A very good question. I know there are right-wingers who are against it when in fact
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 06:48 AM
Mar 2017

it would benefit them and their families, but I question whether the majority of the
99% are against it.

Doreen

(11,686 posts)
54. What is really sad is that these fucking bastards that say no to single payer
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 12:23 AM
Mar 2017

and can afford to go to many countries for their fun is that if they got sick or injured in "oh, lets say Germany" even they as a foreigner would not have to pay or if they had to pay it would be so damn little it would be less than pocket change for them. Some here would say "we should not have to pay for non-citizens?" Well a big part is those are people you know other "human beings" and also if you take care of those rich tourists they will come back and spend money for your economy. Since college is free there there is never a shortage of doctors like people here try to say there is. Their medicine is as advanced as ours if not more in some fields. They are also big on preventive and naturalistic medicine. People tend to not get sick as much which keeps the price down and make the single payer work for everybody.

gopiscrap

(23,765 posts)
55. absolutely
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 01:24 AM
Mar 2017

as a recipient of universal health care growing up, it did wonders. I was in the hospital for 6 months as a baby and it was absolutely wonderful for my parents. Barely a blip on their financial screen...in the US it would have left them penniless and on the streets

Bayard

(22,154 posts)
56. Socialist Equals Communist
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 01:31 AM
Mar 2017

I actually think this is why a lot of people choose to be Rethuglicans, especially seniors. They just don't get the concept of universal healthcare. Everyone else here saying, they believe it means sub-standard care, long waits, etc etc, is absolutely right. They have been told this over and over.

In the wake of last weeks Rethug disaster, it is the perfect time for Dems to be supporting and pushing Bernie Sanders' new bill, as well as, educating the hell out of people. More, more, MORE town halls and marches. Show constituents that their Dem Congressman/woman is more than happy to meet with them and answer their questions. Not hiding out and lying like the Rethugs do.

My senators are McConnell and Rand Paul. Useless obstructionists. Do other senators pay any attention to people contacting them who are not their constituents? How about appearances/public service announcements from people like Obama and Biden? Sorry to say, I don't think Hillary would do us any favors by appearing.

Now is the time to go for Rethug's throats......

Azathoth

(4,611 posts)
57. I got mine so fuck you
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 01:49 AM
Mar 2017

Last edited Mon Mar 27, 2017, 02:55 AM - Edit history (1)

That and fear of change are really all it is.

People have something that works for them -- not well, perhaps not even sufficiently -- but they would rather stay with the devil they know than toss the whole system away and roll the dice to see what they get. When peoples' lives are on the line, they really don't like to step outside their comfort zone; they'll claw your eyes out in order to cling to a sinking life raft rather than swim for the island in the distance.

People also comprehend, deep down, that whatever they have comes at the expense of someone else. They can schedule appointments to see the doctor, or schedule surgery, without waiting because the poor people on the sidewalk can't afford to. They can pay their insurance premiums because sick people can't get policies. They don't have to worry about pre-existing conditions because their employer can afford to underwrite that cost in the group plan because it isn't hiring anyone else. And so on. These are people who made it into the Titanic lifeboats and are frantically beating back the poor souls who are still in the water.

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
69. The ones I know do see it that way...fear of the people who couldnt get in the Titanic life boats.
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 02:49 AM
Mar 2017

It's a zero sum game to them. Irony, look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. They are giving their money away as fast as they can, and they still get richer, and are at the top of Forbes richest people. Many RW wealthy people despise them.

Warpy

(111,352 posts)
76. Conservatives are scared to death they won't get that transplant
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 03:38 AM
Mar 2017

because it's going to be paid for elsewhere. That they aren't going to need the transplant doesn't dawn on them, the very idea that their premiums or taxes might go up to help somebody else get one is extremely galling to them.

They think people oughta pay for their own transplants, dammit, until they have a kid with a deformity who needs one and find out the cost is way out of reach of anybody whose name isn't Trump.

Try to explain the concept of insurance to them and they'll huff that it's Communism and should be outlawed.

They really are bizarre people stuck on I, ME, and MINE.

No one is going to convince a conservative that universal health care is a good thing. If we want to get it done, we'll simply have to steamroll right over them for their own damned good.

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
77. They love universal health care
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 03:44 AM
Mar 2017

Medicare is popular. They need to be told that they get it immediately and without paying into it. Both good things.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
86. You have a point -- "Medicare for all" is probably an easier sale to white wingers than "univeral
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 05:49 AM
Mar 2017

healthcare." There are, however, a lot of white wingers against Medicare.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
87. Many fear they will be worse off than before, or fear the cost.
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 06:07 AM
Mar 2017

Back when ACA was still being debated in Congress, it became clear that DUers would not support a true universal health care system, because they did not want to pay the taxes to support it.

When people find out that they are going to have to pay 15-17% of payroll, they freak. The support for "universal healthcare" like Medicare mostly vanishes when people discover that the under $150 a month Medicare fee doesn't cover the cost, and start applying real numbers to their life circumstances. Discovering that it would cost over $500 a month per person for Medicare type coverage is a deal breaker.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
88. "Why shud Ah pay fer blaks 'n Mezz'kins in-shurince?"
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 06:42 AM
Mar 2017

That, in a nutshell, is the unspoken big pushback on universal healthcare. The me-first-and-screw-the-other-guy attitude shared by shiny-suited Ayn Rand-ers, and the overt RACISM of just about every Republican.

Oh, they'll scream something about no more taxes, but it's that all-inclusive idea of helping *everyone* that sticks in the craw of so many self-centered, "patriotic" Americans.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
92. Sadly, it's not JUST "blaks n Mezz'kins" . . .
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 09:00 AM
Mar 2017

. . . it's women (how many men online comment about not wanting to pay for birth control or ultrasounds?), children, immigrants, anyone who doesn't have cash, veterans (they'll scream "HEY WAIT A SECOND" while electing their Republican politicians who vote against all levies/spending increases for veteran's care), etc.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
106. Absolutely true...
Tue Mar 28, 2017, 07:10 AM
Mar 2017

And they do not hesitate to elbow their way in line to collect their own "gub'mint handouts."

I've been shocked at what appears to be a number of ex-federal and state employees who gleefully side with 45.

Not to mention all the retired folk, who presumably rely upon Social Security and Medicare to get by, but nevertheless vote in Republicans, baggers, Ayn Rand cranks, etc.-- those who are itching to destroy those very "entitlements." (I hate that word, it's designed to divert.)

ck4829

(35,091 posts)
90. A lot of reasons
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 06:53 AM
Mar 2017

There's a cognitive distortion where there is opposition to giving people disadvantaged to you a leg up even if it means your life improves as well. This seems to be encouraged here in the US.

The health care system of tying employment to insurance is also a form of social control, so it would be seen as the "proper thing" by many of those with authority.

 

liquid diamond

(1,917 posts)
93. Greed, political bias, and lack of compassion. Many people
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 09:07 AM
Mar 2017

don't want to pay for another person's shit regardless of what it is. It doesn't even have to be about race. Some whites wouldn't want to help other whites by paying more taxes. Pro-life right wingers wouldn't want their tax dollars paying for abortions. I don't agree with them of course, but those are the reasons why I believe universal health care will never happen in this country.

LonePirate

(13,431 posts)
95. Too many Americans refuse to support anything that might help another person.
Mon Mar 27, 2017, 09:21 AM
Mar 2017

They would rather suffer instead of seeing the country at large improve because it would involve making lives better. Despite revering the Declaration of Independence, they do not believe everyone is created equally and thus they will resist any attempt to make us equal.

DFW

(54,441 posts)
100. Basically, I think it comes down to clever PR
Tue Mar 28, 2017, 02:53 AM
Mar 2017

The private insurance companies have huge advertising budgets, and countries that DO have universal health care always have SOME horror stories about excessively long waits to see a physician. Combine the two, and suddenly a huge portions of Americans think that universal health care ALWAYS DOES mean long waits to see a doctor. That scares them, and they don't want it. There are a lot of details left out, but basically I think it's that. Then there is the occasionally false story about countries that supposedly have universal health care when they in fact do not, such as Germany. They don't help, either, since they encourage finger-pointing from the right.

Combine all that with a healthy dose of "I barely get by, why should I pay for someone else?" and you have a vocal, massive, and VERY convinced segment of American society who will fight the very concept tooth and nail--until such a moment as they should need it themselves, that is.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
102. Publicly funded insurance works the same way as privately funded,
Tue Mar 28, 2017, 04:15 AM
Mar 2017

minus the unnecessary drain on the risk pool from red tape and profit. It's far more efficient and less costly. For-profit health care insurance is completely illogical.

Fuck profiteers from illness and injury.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
105. "All for one, and that ONE is ME!"
Tue Mar 28, 2017, 06:39 AM
Mar 2017

"It's not enough that I succeed, but everyone else must fail."

America.

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