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Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 10:32 AM Feb 2017

The inherent flaw in the "Trump will bring on the progressive revolution!" argument:

The argument that Trump winning is a good thing because it will only serve to inspire true liberals to rally and bring about a progressive revolution--basically what is being championed by people like Susan Sarandon--is an ultimately flawed one. Even if it is well-intentioned, I don't see it succeeding.

Why is it so flawed? Because of who Donald Trump is. The reasons that Donald Trump is so loathsome and so offensive and so odious is not merely a matter of partisan politics or ideology. Rather, it's the inherent nature of the man--his narcissism, his megalomania, his vindictiveness, his impulsive anger, and yet his paradoxical incompetence or outright refusal to delve in deeper to various issues in order to come up with solutions on his own. All of these attributes are not merely the markings of a bad conservative or a bad Republican. Instead, they're simply markings of a bad human being and leader, period. Democrats would be just as ill served to have Donald Trump as their leader just as much as Republicans.

Donald Trump is such a horrifically flawed leader and human being that he pretty much makes anyone else a more attractive alternative.

Anybody.

Right now, America and even Democrats would be willing to suffer through four years of President Mike Pence if it means Donald Trump implodes in flames and crashes and burns.

Right now, George W. Bush--a man who lead the country into an unnecessary and destabilizing war and who oversaw an economic collapse--is viewed as a more palatable alternative than Donald Trump. George W. Bush. Yes, really. George W. Bush. That's astonishing yet sadly the truth, that George W. Bush, who merely eight years ago we all thought was the true bottom of the barrel when it came to US Presidents, is no longer the standard bearer for terrible leadership. And yet, it's pretty much a sad reality. Even as terrible as George W. Bush was, Donald Trump is indeed worse and a greater threat to our long-term stability as a country.

So if the overall effect of the Trump Presidency is to grab America by the neck and hold it there until it cries "Uncle!", whatever follows next--sparing possibly a President George Zimmerman--would be viewed by the public as a better option. And it wouldn't necessarily be Bernie Sanders who comes to our rescue. Or even Hillary Clinton. It could be someone like Mike Pence, who could still impose a lot of long term damage to the country minus the inherently dangerous Mutually Assured Destruction element that Donald Trump has brought us.

Those on the hard, hard left--as admirably principled as they may be--fail to see the forest through the trees in the situation. Not everyone shares their worldview, even if maybe they ought to. Not everyone will be rushing to have Donald Trump replaced by a progressive, ideologically pure icon of the left. There are a lot of people who will settle for anything to avoid the seemingly certain death Donald Trump will bring to this country.

That is why it was a foolish, short-sighted mistake to think that we'd rather deliver the country to the clutches of Donald Trump then have another four years of moderate, left of center leadership in the form of Hillary Clinton. Yes, the entire country will soon be screaming to be saved from Donald Trump. We're already starting to get that sense already. But not everyone will be calling for a true-blue progressive revolution, even if they ought to be doing so. So while there's a chance that type of revolution would come around, I wouldn't necessarily keep your hopes up that it will.

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The inherent flaw in the "Trump will bring on the progressive revolution!" argument: (Original Post) Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2017 OP
the stupidity of the Sarandon Play boils down to "destroy the village to save it". KittyWampus Feb 2017 #1
The only people who advocate "the worse the better" are those most able to weather the worst. DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2017 #2
Sure, but that was only a good argument before Trump one. StubbornThings Feb 2017 #4
Hopefully, things will suck so bad the people will turn to us, hopefully... DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2017 #5
You are correct if you are only talking about the Presidency, but... StubbornThings Feb 2017 #3
Yes, there is more than the Presidency at stake. alarimer Feb 2017 #7
Which ignores the millions of people who think Trump is just awesome. ismnotwasm Feb 2017 #12
There will always be 30-35% of Americans that are ignorant, bigoted, or stupid. StubbornThings Feb 2017 #14
I hope so ismnotwasm Feb 2017 #17
It didn't work in 2016 mythology Feb 2017 #18
What didn't work? There was no President Trump in 2016. StubbornThings Feb 2017 #19
"After Hitler, us." forjusticethunders Feb 2017 #6
Wow.....that says it all. Soooo stealing that. nt msanthrope Feb 2017 #10
Not to mention when you're a hyper-religious nation as we are, you're more prone to dystopia. HughBeaumont Feb 2017 #8
true, the whole point of 'spare the rod and spoil the child' starshine00 Feb 2017 #9
Besides the fact it's the political equivalent of magical thinking? ismnotwasm Feb 2017 #11
Even if it rallies the progressive base... qdouble Feb 2017 #13
Sarandon and those who share her beliefs are morons. Paladin Feb 2017 #15
Look at who his supporters are. Initech Feb 2017 #16
 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
1. the stupidity of the Sarandon Play boils down to "destroy the village to save it".
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 10:38 AM
Feb 2017

I turned off Hayes when he had Stone on... went back and found Sarandon.

Hayes at least called out that her philosophy is that of Lenin (and Steve Bannon).

But I couldn't watch her spout stupidity for any longer.

 

StubbornThings

(259 posts)
4. Sure, but that was only a good argument before Trump one.
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 10:56 AM
Feb 2017

Now that's the Republicans will be in charge for four years, isn't it worth discussing how we can use the Trump Presidency disaster as a way to stop losing and start winning again?

 

StubbornThings

(259 posts)
3. You are correct if you are only talking about the Presidency, but...
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 10:54 AM
Feb 2017

Many of us believe Trump will "help" bring on the progressive revolution for a couple of reasons.

The younger generation (35 years and under) are already very progressive. Having a buffoon like Trump as President for years will guarantee they stay that way for the rest of their lives. His presidency will probably do the same for many independents and even some republicans. Bernie may not have been everyone's favorite on the left but his candidacy did prove that there are a lot of like minded people out there that cover the entire political spectrum.

Even more importantly, Trump will mobilize and energize all Democrats and progressives to defeat the administration (Republicans) in every contest. There are hundreds of races that will take place between now and 11/2020. Having someone that is so hated to run against will make winning those races that much easier. And remember, Trump is also not that popular among members of his own party. I'm not sure they will be that inspired to vote in all of these races if he's embarrassing the party. Pence, on the other hand, is someone that the right can get behind. He's a right-wing conservative. He's uber-christian. He seems sane. He's all the things that Republicans loved about Bush Jr. And, Pence will be just as damaging as Trump, IMO.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
7. Yes, there is more than the Presidency at stake.
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 11:40 AM
Feb 2017

People are off their asses for the first time in a long time. Whether that is sustainable in the long term is anybody's guess. But while our current elected officials leave much to be desired in their opposition to Trump, there is hope, as you said. People are energized in their opposition. I hope it extends to turning out for the midterms, especially if Democrats tie every single Republican to Trump. He will not have much support by that point, I predict.

ismnotwasm

(41,921 posts)
12. Which ignores the millions of people who think Trump is just awesome.
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:06 PM
Feb 2017

Not all the under 35 generation is "very progressive'--although I would hazard a guess they are certainly more progressive. Anecdotally, I live in Seattle. I work as a nurse and yes, most--not all-of my highly educated co-workers are appalled at Trump. Yet I know a number of poorly educated service-type workers, who are pro-gun and anti-abortion and Islamaphobic bigots without the influence of religion. This frightens me. The 'anti-PC" crowd has down exactly what I thought it would do--create a reactive platform for violent imagery and bigotry.

Then again you are right about the left being energized--but the cost is going to be too damn high. The ambivalence of those people who didn't want to get off their ass and vote because they bought into the "they're all the same" narrative comes directly from privilege.

At best, at best, we regain what we've lost. Actual progress forward is not going to happen for a while.

 

StubbornThings

(259 posts)
14. There will always be 30-35% of Americans that are ignorant, bigoted, or stupid.
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:16 PM
Feb 2017

I don't think it will take as long as you think for real progress to happen. Trump will scare a lot of people to the polls.

ismnotwasm

(41,921 posts)
17. I hope so
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:25 PM
Feb 2017

Because that was really the problem--the non-voters.

I never underestimate biogtry though, or ignorance of people no matter what their education level. Met a person who was a very smart nuclear physicist who though Trump "reaching out" to Russia was a good thing, because politically we had allowed Russia to --wallow--I guess, after the end of the Soviet Union. He thought that was a mistake, because he personally had worked with and liked the Russian people, somehow forgetting the people and governments are very different things.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
8. Not to mention when you're a hyper-religious nation as we are, you're more prone to dystopia.
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 11:44 AM
Feb 2017

This nation is addicted to "faith" and "belief". You can see it in the way they treat near-Pure Capitalism as a religion. America's populace never wants to hear any such Yur-uh-pean fowl-de-rowl nonsense about "happy mediums" between what we have and (in Thomas Friedman's assessment) North Korea. Oh, and (deity) help you if you point out Capitalism's glaring flaws and distribution problems visibly damaging the progress of millennials, workers, students and seniors.

They also wanted someone to tell them what they wanted to hear - that HE would be the one to save them and return their jobs to them. It never ceases to amaze me that people think Bernie Sanders is too big a risk, but Trump WASN'T. He was the Capitalist genius we all loved to hate, but now mysteriously believe in. Bernie's concrete plans on how he would pay for everything he proposed somehow seemed less reasonable than Trump's re-hashed Supply Side; a miserable and reliable failure that even their own Reagan-era promoters now decry. Search me how the hell that makes sense, but this is a nation of Fear, Belief and Faith.

Faith-based people will believe ANYthing you tell them, as long as it adheres to their prejudices against marginalized classes, biases against certain people having rights and progress, and their own shortcomings. THAT is how you get a dystopia.

There could be a serious argument made that "faith" and "belief" are the two elements that won Trump the Presidency. They always wanted to blame Obama for the problems Capitalism caused them and they found that guy in billionaire Donald Trump; a guy who has been screwing labor, tenants and businesses since his rich pop lent him a lottery. Just like they're wont to beat the shit out of anyone who questions their flag and Bible, they're willing to do the same to anyone who screws with their Horatio Alger fantasy.

What were they always told? "If you're not better than (insert race, ethnic group or marginalized class here), who are you better than, son?"

 

starshine00

(531 posts)
9. true, the whole point of 'spare the rod and spoil the child'
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 11:51 AM
Feb 2017

is to use severe child abuse (and worse) to break the spirit of the child and separate them from their innate god consciousness and instill authoritarianism, this is what the religionists want and this is deliberate creation of authoritarianism that abrahamic orthodox religions have honed for thousands of years. It doesn't create this mindset by accident (authoritarianism), it is the successful end result of thousands of years of human psychological experimentation.

ismnotwasm

(41,921 posts)
11. Besides the fact it's the political equivalent of magical thinking?
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 11:55 AM
Feb 2017

Devoid of any care or concern for actual consequences as opposed to desired ones?

Well. Yeah.

qdouble

(891 posts)
13. Even if it rallies the progressive base...
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:08 PM
Feb 2017

we'll have to spend a ton of time trying to gain back all the progress we made. Fake progressives want to play yo-yo with people's lives

Paladin

(28,204 posts)
15. Sarandon and those who share her beliefs are morons.
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:18 PM
Feb 2017

She's got plenty of money, she can afford to be happy that trump's in the White House, with that ol' Revolution just right around the corner. Chris Hayes is a better person than I am---I would have thrown Sarandon and her little courtier off the stage last night, after the snotty insults she aimed at him.

Initech

(99,915 posts)
16. Look at who his supporters are.
Thu Feb 16, 2017, 12:22 PM
Feb 2017

It's no secret that it wasn't any demagogue you can think of that turned out in droves in the election. You know who it really was that overpowered the progressive movement? It was the anti-PC crowd that turned up in droves. It was the racists, white supremacists, it was the people like Milo Yiannopolous and Richard Spencer. It was Breitbart. It was Infowars. It was Prison Planet. Just yesterday the SPLC announced that it was monitoring 915 hate groups across the country and that new ones were springing up faster than they could track them! America's neo Nazis said they were "emboldened" by Trump's victory. Kentucky governor Matt Bevin invited the leaders of 130 churches to the governor's mansion to explain why they needed to overturn the Johnson Amendment! It's the very thing that's keeping us from being a religious totalitarian fascist theocracy, and now they're coming for it. The idea that "the left has been energized" is something we definitely need to latch onto. But what's even scarier is that hate and the anti-PC movement is on the rise in this country. If we want to get out of the woods, we need to tackle this issue head on. We cannot let the anti-PC crowd and the white supremacists take over this country. We're in for a long fight if we do.

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