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Silent3

(15,206 posts)
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 12:09 PM Jan 2017

If things get so bad that Calexit becomes a serious option, is water CA's biggest vulnerability?

California depends greatly on water from out-of-state, like the water supplied by the Colorado River.

Could California really go it alone, or would the US force California to stay by threatening its water supply?

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If things get so bad that Calexit becomes a serious option, is water CA's biggest vulnerability? (Original Post) Silent3 Jan 2017 OP
If he can build a wall he can build a dam. In_The_Wind Jan 2017 #1
I think they'll be ok considering the length of their coastline Phoenix61 Jan 2017 #2
Desal will happen, of necessity, but it is very expensive. Also, most people don't understand.... Hekate Jan 2017 #25
The water pulled from the Colorado is done at Parker Dam, at the south end of Lake Havasu A HERETIC I AM Jan 2017 #3
There will be no Calexit. It's literally stupid to talk about it except to say Russia is behind it. KittyWampus Jan 2017 #4
Thank you. This is definitely a Russian ploy WhiteTara Jan 2017 #7
It is also metaphorically stupid to talk about it. grantcart Jan 2017 #15
There will be no Calexit Vinnie From Indy Jan 2017 #29
Silly .... obnoxiousdrunk Jan 2017 #5
No, the greatest vulnerability is Federal Social Services. haele Jan 2017 #6
California sends around $350 billion to the Blue_true Jan 2017 #8
That's equating Fed. Money to state programs. haele Jan 2017 #9
Medicare is a similar situation... Princess Turandot Jan 2017 #31
Canada has the world's largest freshwater supply. meadowlander Jan 2017 #10
California alone has a population that equals Canada's population. "Build a pipeline" is not a plan. Hekate Jan 2017 #14
It will never happen anyway. End of discussion. Throd 2.0 Jan 2017 #11
Keeping predatory companies like Nestle from getting their hands on it would be a top priority. Initech Jan 2017 #12
Calexit is being run by a man with a San Diego address and a RUSSIAN office.... Hekate Jan 2017 #13
I don't think Calexit very likely, or likely a good idea either... Silent3 Jan 2017 #16
No. hunter Jan 2017 #17
We fought a war that established that such things Codeine Jan 2017 #18
California also imports a lot of electricity. n/t oneshooter Jan 2017 #19
interesting... from Wiki frankieallen Jan 2017 #28
I hope Oregon can join with Califorina Matthew28 Jan 2017 #20
Desalination Plants. sarcasmo Jan 2017 #21
+1 uponit7771 Jan 2017 #32
Ummm, have you watched a sunset lately? Wounded Bear Jan 2017 #22
60% of SoCal's water is Colorado River water. politicat Jan 2017 #23
Electricity. fescuerescue Jan 2017 #24
We aren't leaving.....we are leading. California_Republic Jan 2017 #26
Trash word: calexit Iggo Jan 2017 #27
Bannon is pushing calexit. Don't take the bait. Nt yodermon Jan 2017 #30
No, economic sanctions and travel restrictions are the biggest vulnerability. onenote Jan 2017 #33

Hekate

(90,662 posts)
25. Desal will happen, of necessity, but it is very expensive. Also, most people don't understand....
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 08:13 PM
Jan 2017

....that California is very very big, and mountainous, and most of the inland part is away from the coast over quite rugged mountains and very very dry.

So any water generated along the coasts would be worth its weight in gold by the time it got piped to the Central Valley and the Inland Empire and so on. Blasting tunnels thru mountains, building pipelines, and on and on do not come cheap.

The entire modern history of California has been shaped by Water and how to move it around.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,367 posts)
3. The water pulled from the Colorado is done at Parker Dam, at the south end of Lake Havasu
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 12:32 PM
Jan 2017

as well as intakes near Blythe and down near the Mexico border Near Yuma, so they are all on the Arizona / California line.




The rest of the water is either Sierra Nevada Mountains snow-melt or comes from the tributaries of the Sacramento River.



I can't see ANY WAY AT ALL that Trump would be able to order a dam be built just to spite California.

WhiteTara

(29,704 posts)
7. Thank you. This is definitely a Russian ploy
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 01:22 PM
Jan 2017

to get the politically immature to fall for another impossible end. We, as a people, need to understand the motives behind the words and work to strengthen our standing against tyranny; not look for ways to hide.

haele

(12,649 posts)
6. No, the greatest vulnerability is Federal Social Services.
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 12:54 PM
Jan 2017

If we were to break out of the US, at least half the inhabitants will be left with no means of support during the process. Homeless and starving elders, and disabled folk. People cut off from their doctors or medical support.
While business and cities in California is dependent on water, border infrastructure, etc...the citizens themselves depend on being part of the United States.
And the State can't absorb the cost to pick up Federal Social Services.

Haele

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
8. California sends around $350 billion to the
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 02:42 PM
Jan 2017

FED, gets around $85 billion back. If California leaves, it would have plenty of money to meet it's needs.

haele

(12,649 posts)
9. That's equating Fed. Money to state programs.
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 03:03 PM
Jan 2017

SSDI, SSI, and VA money is not included in that budget, because that's Federal money to individuals, not to the state. Likewise, there's Tricare and other programs that don't go to the state but to individuals. Also, people who are employed by the Federal government, or work on Federal projects or in Federal facilities that will now be out of work while the Feds stop work in the State to put pressure or punish California.

That money to individuals, Federal employment, etc all cannot be made just by not sending taxes and fees to the Feds.

Haele

Princess Turandot

(4,787 posts)
31. Medicare is a similar situation...
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 10:59 PM
Jan 2017

all of those payments go directly to the various providers of care. They do not flow through the state at all. In 2009, seven years ago, the total Medicare payments to California exceeded $50 billion, the most of any state.

Hekate

(90,662 posts)
14. California alone has a population that equals Canada's population. "Build a pipeline" is not a plan.
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 03:18 PM
Jan 2017

Initech

(100,068 posts)
12. Keeping predatory companies like Nestle from getting their hands on it would be a top priority.
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 03:07 PM
Jan 2017

Nestle Water is based in California and has several plants in both Southern and Northern California. Keeping them from privatizing our water and selling it to the highest bidder would be a huge priority if California would become its' own country.

Hekate

(90,662 posts)
13. Calexit is being run by a man with a San Diego address and a RUSSIAN office....
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 03:11 PM
Jan 2017

I am not in the least amused by attempts to literally break my country apart.

Hekate, Californian

Silent3

(15,206 posts)
16. I don't think Calexit very likely, or likely a good idea either...
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 06:11 PM
Jan 2017

...but I don't know how I'll feel if we have week after week like this last awful week. I'm horribly ashamed of what we've allowed to happen in this country.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
17. No.
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 06:15 PM
Jan 2017

The Colorado River ain't that much and will probably be even less as the climate changes.

Don't cry for Trump Southern California.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
18. We fought a war that established that such things
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 06:23 PM
Jan 2017

are not possible. There will be no Calextit. It's a stupid, childish, ignorant notion.

 

frankieallen

(583 posts)
28. interesting... from Wiki
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 08:33 PM
Jan 2017

Due to high electricity demand, California imports more electricity than any other state, primarily hydroelectric power from states in the Pacific Northwest (via Path 15 and Path 66) and coal- and natural gas-fired production from the desert Southwest via Path 46.[20]

Wounded Bear

(58,648 posts)
22. Ummm, have you watched a sunset lately?
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 06:30 PM
Jan 2017


Sorry to be snarky, but put Silicon Valley to work on a Manhattan Project style desalinization solution. This should have been done 30 years ago.

Lots of water out there, just need to sweeten it up.

politicat

(9,808 posts)
23. 60% of SoCal's water is Colorado River water.
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 06:45 PM
Jan 2017

It's possible to divert it all without damaging the rest of the Interstate Compact. I didn't say easy, because it's going to depend on Colorado and Nevada cooperating. (Arizona and Utah are a given in this scenario.) Here's the map.

1) About half of California's allotment is pumped over the Continental Divide from the sources of the Arkansas and Platte river on a seasonal basis. (There are times of year when the Front Range uses some Colorado River water; the rest of the year, the Colorado River gets supplemental water from the Arkansas and Platte to keep the flow rate constant.) Turn those pumps off or only flow west to east instead of east to west. What convinces Colorado to do this? Multiple counties in chronic drought conditions. If that water isn't going to the California part of the compact, it can be reallocated to SE and NE Colorado counties, which are hurting right now.

2) Fill Lakes Mead and Powell. Both are well below capacity and the western states need that water storage at capacity. Yes, Powell leaks like a sieve. But that aquifer is tapped in other places, so the water effectively stays in the system.

3) Divert excess flow into the Central Arizona Project Canal to be stored and used by Phoenix Metro and Tucson metro. With more water, Arizona farmers can take up some of the winter produce slack created by cutting off the Imperial Valley.

4) Block the Colorado River Aquaduct and divert remaining flow towards the water deficit Mexico is owed. There will be some minor loss into California on the bed of the Colorado River below Parker, but not a lot. We owe Mexico a LOT of water; they have been more than patient.

It's not impossible. It's not pretty, and it's a devastating scenario, but it's how western water rights work. If California becomes a new entity, they do not inherit their former claims. They cede them and go to the end of the water rights line. (This is why there are Colorado towns with older rights than Mexico, because there are a few places that were founded in 1845-47, and Mexico did not inherit Spain's claims that were defined in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848.) Western water rights always work on first in time, first in claim, because they're water rights built for miners, not farmers.

But water may be relatively minor. California could survive on a reduced water budget simply by giving up entirely on alfalfa and soy, reducing rice and greens intended for market (retaining production for local use) and focusing on crops that need the Mediterranean climate.

The two big issues I can see are power -- California has a 30% deficit in power production. They have to fix that immediately, either by getting Oregon and Washington to leave with them, or ramping up solar and wind very fast. And the military.

Twenty-nine Stumps withdraws to Yuma Marine Corps Air Station. And proceeds to use the Imperial Valley for target practice. The naval stations decamp. This is a process that is established, because there's an unlikely but possible scenario involving the San Andreas that would destroy most of the dock space. The east coast and gulf coast dockage will be crowded, but everything can fit. Edwards retreats to Nellis. The smaller bases have their own retreat plans. California probably loses a large portion of their National Guard, too -- they're sworn to the Constitution first and we have already fought this. Secession isn't allowed. That's what 1861-1865 was about.

And California's continental defenses are currently provided by Nevada, Montana and South Dakota based missile systems. So that's gone. They've got a very long land border with no natural barriers, occupied primarily by people who are more likely sympathetic with Il Douche. (Really. Letting the Inland Empire protect the coast's back is a very, very bad idea.) And a long coast with no radar and no surface to air short-range protection. And they're now the 8th biggest economy in the world, with no defenses. Even if the split is as amicable as possible, anyone who wants a toehold in North America now has a perfect target.

Not mentioning that the very idea plays into Putin's greasy mits and it's a good way for half of the progressives in the country to fuck the other half... it's really tactically stupid.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
24. Electricity.
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 08:09 PM
Jan 2017

California currently imports about 1/3 of it's electricity needs from neighboring states.

California has about 90 electricity generating plants of various types and a wide range of capacities.

Assuming they use the same strategy and mix of plants, they would need to build about 30 power plants, assuming no conservation, nor rationing is enacted.

Not counting permits and studies, it takes about 5 years to build a plant, but I suspect that it could be done in about two years under emergency circumstances.

Not a small problem, but certainly doable.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
33. No, economic sanctions and travel restrictions are the biggest vulnerability.
Sun Jan 29, 2017, 11:11 PM
Jan 2017

That plus the fact that the US government isn't giving up the nearly half of California's landmass that are federally owned or giving California the money to keep making social security payments and other federal payments to Californians. And while California might be able to collect tax payments in the future, they won't be able to write those checks immediately.

California isn't voting to secede. It's a fantasy.

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