Do DUers understand the meaning of 2million more votes?

[malaise]

This has never happened in history - something serious went on here

[cwydro]

1. I certainly do.

I'm bitter and appalled.

But I don't think all this nonsense on DU about challenging the election is going to do a thing.

I remember the Gore debacle.

We have to stand up and fight as this horrid creature (I can't even type the name) takes power. But all the whining, whinging, pissing and moaning will not help anyone.

Really amazed at how defeated so many DUers are...taking handfuls of anti-depressives, drinking continuously, calling sick to work, crying, lashing out at friends and family, "chainsmoking all night" (one of my favorites)...crying, throwing up for days...

Jeez, really people? Are we this weak?

Not you malaise, but I've seen all these reactions for the last couple weeks and I find it sickening. I can only imagine how the cavers must be pissing their pants laughing.

[Coyotl]

11. I do too. Clinton's lead is larger than the sum of all the Trump votes in almost a dozen states.

Last edited Wed Nov 30, 2016, 05:49 PM - Edit history (1)

On edit, Nov. 30, 2,389,851 vote margin.

[MrModerate]

15. To be fair, if Gore had contested wisely . . .

He'd be remembered as President Gore. Pushing for partial recounts here and there was never a sustainable strategy.

[anamandujano]

61. I was watching.

I couldn't believe Boise didn't request the whole deal. After awhile one of the justices asked him if he wanted to. Who knows why.

I tend to think they knew what was to be from signals inside the courtroom.

Also, I was watching the Florida discussions and either the state senators or the electors had already decided they would give the state to W, no matter what happened.

The whole episode was disgusting. That said, this is different. This is so much evidence that can't be ignored. I think the brighter scenario is on track to play out.

[milestogo]

20. Because "bitter and appalled" is superior to whining, pissing, and moaning..

And its better to sit back being bitter and appalled than to challenge an election that may have been fraudulent.

Did I get that right?

[cwydro]

23. Not a fan of crybabies.

You got that right.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[milestogo]

49. Happy Thanksgiving!

[bettyellen]

53. Oh you're sickened? You must be so weak!

By your own reckoning.

[Hortensis]

2. Not inside the beltway from what I heard.

This is all past history to those more interested in the big changes and opportunities in their local "society."

I suggest saying a big no to cable and TV news and being careful to do the same by only clicking on honest and insightful print journalists.

Tuning in the collaborators isn't just rewarding collaboration, it's bad for the brain.

[BeyondGeography]

3. It's basically California; she broke even everywhere else

Not good enough, and yes, it's a fucked up way to elect a President. California has 65X more people than Wyoming and 18X the number of electoral votes. Given our dominance there and our struggles in about 2/3 of the rest of the states, this is going to keep happening unless we squeeze out wins in the battlegrounds.

[SoCalNative]

4. Or get rid of the Electoral College

I'm sorry but states with larger populations should have the most say in an election. You want that voice then move out of fly-over land and to a place where your vote would count.

[BeyondGeography]

5. Even better

eom

[treestar]

6. This

We need to start a movement. I found one group on Facebook googling for "abolish Electoral College."

[paleotn]

29. Exactly...

....Small states have the Senate as a check on the will of large states and that's more than enough. The reasons the framers created the electoral college no longer exist (relatively low population slave states.) Modern democracy was in its infancy back then, and many of the founders simply did not trust the will of the "rabble" (Adams.) Our world is vastly different than theirs and we have decades upon decades of precedence that shows democratically elected government is stable long term. Personally, I think we need to ditch the whole, creaking edifice of American democracy and adopt a modern, parliamentary system. Our liberal democracy prototype is out dated, ineffective and needs to be replaced. Won't happen in my lifetime, but I can dream.

[pbmus]

66. Go to

http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/

[Grey Lemercier]

70. that Compact is unconstitutional

States cannot make interstate legally binding laws that affect the supremacy of US law without approval on Congress. Multiple other reasons too.


http://www.jurist.org/forum/2012/02/william-ross-vote-compact.php

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2188020

[pbmus]

71. You might want to read my latest discussion entry

On the 13 crises...because we are in a crisis manufactured by us...

[TheFrenchRazor]

73. hey hey, ho ho, the electoral college has got to go... or get used to having LOSER republicans

"win" every other presidential election.

[alarimer]

79. There are plans out that don't require a constitutional amendment

Last edited Wed Nov 30, 2016, 11:59 AM - Edit history (1)

A couple of methods. One is an agreement that states will give their electoral votes to the national popular vote winner. Several states have signed on (they are already blue so it doesn't matter much right now- for a total 165 electoral votes). Now, Michigan and Paennsylvania have legilation pending, so it doesn't affect those states right now, unfortunately. That would be a case of Trump winning the state, but the electoral votes going to Clinton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

The other thing that I've read about (and may be more palatable to people) is awarding electoral votes on a proportional basis. If, say, a state was split 60-40, the winner would get 60% EV for that state. It would have made a difference and Clinton might have won, given that she would have picked up EVs in every state, but so would Trump. So I'm not sure how it would have worked out.

[LisaL]

9. That's exactly right.

Hillary's lost can be directly attributed to the electoral college. Of which republicans will never agree to get rid of, since it favors small states and therefore favors republicans.

[pbmus]

67. Don't need to have them agree

http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/

[kentuck]

13. California is no less important than all the states in the Deep South.

When we count votes.

We should not minimize the votes of the citizens of California.

[lostnfound]

35. Individuals in California aren't worth as much, evidently

Even though they are better educated and contribute more to the GDP

[BeyondGeography]

45. Apparently not

The Deep South (LA, MS, AL, GA, SC, TN) gets a dozen Senators and CA gets two. Total population of those states is about 20.5 million vs. 38.8 million. 6X more votes in the Senate with just over 1/2 the population. This is why we can't have nice things. Ever.

[DK504]

56. No

There are a number of states that have very hinky vote tallies. The is something that needs to be investigated and action taken for the corrupt numbers.

[Retrograde]

63. Very lopsided vote

In my California county, over 720K people cast votes for president in this election: that alone is more than the entire population of Wyoming. That's one county, and not the biggest one at that - or even the most Democratic-leaning.

The Electoral College comes from a time when the states had roughly the same population densities. We do not have that now, but it continues to favor the less populated states. And we're not going to get rid of it as long as 2/3 of those small-population states have to agree to the change.

[oberliner]

7. It means HRC was extraordinarily popular in NY and CA

And was able to win those huge population states by very large margins.

[LisaL]

8. Yes, exactly.

And those large states aren't getting their fair share in the electoral college.
So basically, we got killed by the electoral college rules.

[JonLP24]

12. Fair share I don't think it is a problem

I want the electoral college gone since my vote for President is worthless in Arizona, plus theoritically someone could win 11 states that add up to 270 with as low as 23% of the popular vote.

[lostnfound]

38. We got killed by the effectiveness of GOP brainwashing in rural communities.

And by the Democratic elites willingness to concede that territory for decades without much of a fight?

[ybbor]

40. This

[La Lioness Priyanka]

84. it's interesting how she was maligned as not liberal enough

but both in the primaries and in the general she won two of the most liberal states in the union.

[Sunlei]

10. It means that 'city peoples' vote is half a vote in America.

[baldguy]

16. or 2/3?

[Lochloosa]

31. Or 3/5's

[Quayblue]

47. Mmhm! Nt

[HipHipHillary]

21. Correct...

Hillary winning the he city vote only shouldn't represent the total view of the country.

Although she had the most votes, if you take into count the votes for Trump, Stein, Johnson, Mcmullin & others, she had more votes against her than for her and the splitting of the votes ended up costing her.

This is obviously the same for Trump, but he pulled off the EC win and that comes into question.

[William Seger]

33. What "view" does "the country" have

... that's different from what "the people" want? Why should the value of your vote depend on which state you live in?

[Sunlei]

43. Their worldview is created from twitter and facebook fake news & 'Trumpland' was prophetic

They want the same things everyone wants, good schools, clean food, air and water, decent health care. And their cell phones tell them republicans will provide quickly and Ds mock their baseball hats that everyone has always worn.

Here is a very good 45 min morning joe interview, covers why trump won quite well. Also covers the resistance to everything trump we will see in future.

scroll to the bottom for 45 min interview.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/michael-moore-morning-joe-why-donald-trump-won-45-minute-commercial-free-panel-946622

[William Seger]

44. You didn't answer my question

Why should a Wyoming resident have 3.7 times more presidential voting power than a California resident?

[Sunlei]

50. They should not. I think the popular vote is democracy.

hope that answers your question please do watch Trumpland and that 45 minute interview because the push back against trump and republicans is going to be very powerful indeed.

[MrModerate]

14. Yeah, we got whacked upside the head by the electoral college . . . again. n/t

[Sunlei]

48. we got wacked because lots of people didn't want the 'status quo' system anymore or they sat out &

left ballots blank. In Detroit 90,000 ballots presidents choice was left blank(everything else was voted on)

[pbmus]

68. Doesn't have to be

http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/

[Martin Eden]

17. It means much more than 2 million.....

When taking into consideration voter suppression & purges and the very real possibility of hacking the count in key battleground states.

[malaise]

18. Correct - that number is more than the entire electorate

in Jamaica. I have never heard such a number even in first past the post/plurality electoral systems.
Something went down here - this is madness

[ybbor]

19. Maybe if She had visited Wisconsin ONCE it might have helped...

She had a horrible over confidence and it cost her. She knew the rules up front, and bitching about them after the fact is just sour grapes. She lost Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Iowa, her old home state of Arkansas, Florida. And she lost all those Deep South states that really carried her to the nomination and we all knew they were not really the states that would secure her the presidency. She, we, fucked up by sending a deeply flawed candidate forward. And now we are reaping what we sowed.

We have four shitty years ahead, and many more with regard to the Supreme Court. She, we, knew the rules going in and she fucked up. So now we're all fucked!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[malaise]

22. She should have visited Wisconsin

Valid points but no one in history ever had two million more votes than the other candidate

[ramapo]

24. Exactly right

But watch out ybbor, I had a post deleted because I expressed exactly the same sentiment.

Losing Wisconsin is basically unforgivable. I guess Clinton never noticed what Scott Walker did twice.

I say good riddance to Clinton. I never liked the idea of the presidential dynasty, not with the Bushes (thank god Jeb washed out), not with the Clintons. I always contended that surely there was one other democrat besides Hillary who could have been nominated (and Bernie is not technically a Democrat).

Time to move on. There will be no states flipped by recounts or elector revolt.

So we protest and resist when indicated. We pressure the DNC etc to broaden the party. We do good things in our own lives.

And look on the bright side, Trump is going to get us all really great health insurance for less!

[pnwmom]

30. The new voter ID laws in Wisconsin depressed Democratic turnout,

just as they were designed to do. That wasn't Hillary's fault.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2016/11/10/milwaukee-elections-head-says-voter-id-law-hurt-citys-turnout/93607154/

Wisconsin's voter ID law caused problems at the polls in the city and likely contributed to lower voter turnout, Milwaukee's elections chief said Thursday.

The city saw a decline of some 41,000 voters in Tuesday's election compared with 2012, when President Barack Obama won broad support in Milwaukee and coasted to re-election.

"We saw some of the greatest declines were in the districts we projected would have the most trouble with voter ID requirements," said Neil Albrecht, executive director of the city's Election Commission.

[madokie]

41. I had one deleted too

That had nothing to do with breaking the rules but I digress

IMHO

[BeyondGeography]

46. Me too

You're supposed to "support Democrats" but for some people here that means not pointing out how they fucked up.

[malaise]

51. I had posts deleted too - I see it as a badge of honor

[Lochloosa]

54. You would.

[malaise]

59. Hehehehehhe

[BeyondGeography]

55. If life seems jolly rotten, there's something you've forgotten!

[malaise]

58. Love me some Monty Python

[King_Klonopin]

65. Life's a piece of shit, when ya look at it. nt

[BeyondGeography]

77. A recurring theme in the UK

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_It_Just_Me_or_Is_Everything_Shit%3F

[jack_krass]

76. You should challenge the decision to silence your post. The election

Is over, and the little cabal of McCarthyite bullies who get their jollies by silencing any opinion they disagree with no longer has any power here.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

26. By flawed, I believe you mean "qualified". nt

[ybbor]

37. Nope

FLAWED

[Dr Hobbitstein]

62. Go back to your cave. nt

[pnwmom]

27. She wasn't a "deeply flawed" candidate. In 2013 the Supreme Court

dismantled the voting rights act, which resulted in the purging of millions of voters, and others being denied a vote due to ID requirements they couldn't meet. Others had polling stations closed and early voting days cut back.

And yet she already has a margin of more than 2 million votes and it will quite likely end up as 2.5 - 3.

Your 20/20 hindsight is perfect. Too bad everyone isn't as perfect as you are.

[ybbor]

36. Yes, She was deeply flawed or She wouldn't have lost all the rust belt states...

And the election.

She had negativity ratings north of 50 percent. She may have been the "most qualified" candidate of all time, but I also contend she was only a slightly better candidate than Dukakis. People don't like her for what ever it is. They don't and we knew it, but we still put her up. It's on us folks!

I say get over this huge mistake and let's start looking forward!

We are now just one state away from the Republicans having two-thirds of the control, which they could use to call for a constitutional convention and rewrite the whole thing. Thanks DWS! You may have cost us more than the White House.

We better get our house in order or we are toast.

[ybbor]

42. And it isn't hindsight

I was saying this prior to the election, as well. I even said it here multiple times until it was not allowed.

[JI7]

64. she won those states because of the black vote and they ARE a big part of the votes in the GE for

democrats .

[Loki]

25. Looking at the last census data of 2010

There are 6 states with 2+ million in total population and 8 with 1+ million and 6 with less than 1 million people. Try telling any of those states that none of their votes will count in a presidential election. That is what this election is about. The majority of voters who went to the polls to cast their vote for President, have been told that their vote will not count. I don't care a crap about the Electoral College, because it has been so corrupted since Hamilton's paper that intended it to be a barrier against election of any person unfit to be the leader of this country. It now will give us the most corrupt, demagogue that this country has ever encountered and I hope that we can withstand it.

[malaise]

28. 1,000

The number is staggering

[napkinz]

32. first day back since the election

what a nightmare!

[malaise]

34. Welcome back sis

Nightmare doesn't quite describe it.

[onecaliberal]

52. There are counties in states with More votes than registered voters, including in WI.

[mcar]

57. So many disenfranchised voters

[demmiblue]

60. In Michigan, Obama beat McCain in 2008 by 16 percentage points.

Obama beat Romney in 2012 by almost 10 percentage points.

Overall, I think she was the wrong candidate at the wrong time for my state.

I don't really know if anything nefarious went on, but I think that we are ultimately stuck with the tiny fingered, Cheeto-faced, ferret wearing shitgibbon.

[tandem5]

69. It's not going to stop at 2 million.

[Kablooie]

72. Everything about this from the primaries on has been bizarre and unprecedented.

What the hell's happening?

It really smells like something is seriously wrong.

[The King of Prussia]

74. Two million more votes

In an election where the total number of votes didn't decide the election. If the election had been fought under a system where a plurality of the votes wins it everything would have been different. The campaign would have been different. More, or perhaps fewer, candidates would have stood. Individual voters' decisions about who to vote for, or whether to vote at all would sometimes have been different. Two million votes is a lot, but not compared to the size of the electorate. Would Clinton have won under that system? No-one knows.
As a Brit I think your entire focus should be on working out how you lost to the most awful, useless candidate I can remember standing for election anywhere. And then send him packing in four years' time.

[malaise]

75. Not true

With the first past the post system/plurality system where seats are allocated, there have been a few times when the party with the most national votes wins fewer seats and it's the seats that count.

[The King of Prussia]

78. There are no seats in a Presidential Election

[malaise]

80. I know

I was making the point re electoral college votes versus the popular vote and seats v the popular vote.

[jmg257]

81. Hey - she had 6 million more in just CA and NY...sure that means something.

Serious is it wasn't enough in too many other states.

[sylvanus]

82. Do DU'rs understand that if they wanna complain about the electoral college

maybe we should of done something about it, when George Bushes brother, Jeb, rigged the Florida election to steal it
from Al Gore. Cause he won the popular vote by about 500,000. Which, strangely enough is when I started coming to DU. But we didn't,
we howled and screamed and gnashed our teeth, rended our garments, and claimed that he had no mandate, then 9/11. But then
we stymied him at every turn, oh wait no we didn't. We'll I'm sure another 9/11 can't happen.
2 million votes don't mean a damn thing to the electoral college, and we aren't going to make a change
to the friggen constitution, in the minority to the republicans when they're shutting down the government every 6 months.
We had far more cause to change it in 2000, and we didn't do squat. So here we are.

[Coyotl]

83. Off the chart impossible and beyond all probability without some cheating

Like someone cheated on an entrance exam and got the best grade, ahead of the student who worked a whole life at academic excellence.



Current Clinton popular vote margin is 2,389,851.