What if: Dallas

[RobertEarl]

Last edited Mon Jul 11, 2016, 12:10 AM - Edit history (1)

What if the police had been watching the gun ranges and the private military training camps, looking for likely candidates who might be a little deranged and likely to use their guns and skills in an urban situation?

Would they have noticed the Dallas shooter and made a point of having a talk with him? And maybe by virtue of that, he would have gained a sense of sanity and not gone off on his insane rampage?

The police need to be looking in all the likely places for people who show the propensity to cause havoc, and less time pulling over people for little suspicions like, oh, say, driving while black.

ETA; ADD... What if: Orlando? What if: Sandy Hook?

All these involved insane gun lovers and the cops should be looking for them. White, Black, Brown, or whatever color.

[Dreamer Tatum]

1. Then there'd be Facebook posts about cops hassling people

And in this case, the hassle would have been racist in nature.

And Dallas cops would be the Gestapo, etc.

[RobertEarl]

4. It is called intelligence

Looking for bad guys is the cops job. People will bitch and complain about anything until they are the ones maimed and murdered by insane shooters.

If the cops really did their jobs, they might have stooped this Dallas insanity a long time ago. Instead they spend millions looking for pot smokers and the like.

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. Heh. Sure. nt

[Travis_0004]

24. Seems like stop and frisk is useful for gaining intelligence.

[RobertEarl]

34. It is

I hear folks tell me NYC is better since the cops started getting more pro-active.

In the gunners case, it wouldn't be stop and frisk so much as looking for a reasonable search warrant from a Judge.

[Ash_F]

46. Better?

[X_Digger]

87. Why did I just know that you'd just love that racist shit.

http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data

In 2015, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 22,939 times.
18,353 were totally innocent (80 percent).
12,223 were black (54 percent).
6,598 were Latino (29 percent).
2,567 were white (11 percent).

[TipTok]

77. There's a big brother moment if there ever was one...

Did you forget the whole 'What do you have to hide if you've done nothing wrong?" bit?

[B2G]

2. So 'shooting while black' is OK to profile.

I just can't anymore.

[RobertEarl]

5. WTF?

Shooting in an urban setting is insane. These shooters have to be stopped before they start shooting.

[B2G]

8. You are proposing profiling at shooting ranges

What about this guy would have made him stand out?

[RobertEarl]

9. Think

Then post again.

[B2G]

10. Lol. You are so cute.

[WillowTree]

25. Why not answer B2G's question?

[RobertEarl]

30. By virtue of being there: reason for suspicion. DUH

I really thought the question was easily answerable by any one who could think, and so just took it as troll bait.

[WillowTree]

35. Have you noticed that virtually no one else on this thread sees that as "reasonable" suspicion?

It would make as much sense to say that a person's presence in a bank constitutes "reason for suspicion" that he/she could be a bank robber and would warrant violation of his/her 4th Amendment protections.

One more time.......

No.......Probable.......Cause.......

[RobertEarl]

37. They have guards and cameras in banks

You are being watched. It is not a right's violation to be watched. DUH.

The cops need to be watching gun ranges and ammo counters and training areas. DUH

Your arguments are just embarrassing yourself.

[WillowTree]

38. I'd ask if a bank guard ever interrogated you about your mental health but I no longer care.

[RobertEarl]

39. Did they ask you?

Gunners are suspicious people due to their love of guns and itching to pull a trigger. So we need to find those gunners who are insane before they start pulling triggers in an urban setting.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. In the Dallas case, and ounce of prevention would have been priceless, being as there is no cure for what that insane shooter did.

I don't get why anyone would propose we not do an ounce of prevention, but there are such arguments right here on this thread.

[beevul]

92. Statistics from the VPC show that "gunners" aren't the bloodthirsty savages you'd have us all think.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172191826

[John Poet]

62. LOL!

"Yes, you'd like to withdraw $100 from your account. When was the last time you've been seen by a psychiatrist?"

[Lurker Deluxe]

40. What!?!?

The government has cameras and armed guards in private banks?

I think not.

Private business can do whatever they want (excluding discrimination) and you can choose to visit that place of business according to those rules. The government cannot do those same things to a private property without the permission of the owners of that property.

Pretty sure you know that and are simply being obtuse.

[RobertEarl]

52. Cameras on streets

Satellites in space. Cops on street corners. Government also has cameras in government offices looking for bad guys.

So, as we see, your expressions are merely obtuse.

[Lurker Deluxe]

67. No

The cameras/cops on the streets observe public property, the street. Satellite surveillance is illegal without a warrant, and obviously the government can place a camera in a government building ... it's their building.

The government can not and does not place surveillance equipment in private establishments.

Why not just stop every person who leaves a bar? You would certainly cut down on drunk drivers.

Again, you know this ... why you are following this line of thought is un explainable.

[John Poet]

47. So, "by virtue of being there" at a LEGAL target range,

'committing' a legal activity,
all of these innocent shooters are now guilty of "suspicious activity",
and should be investigated ?

That's a whole lot of people, and

That's NUTS.

[RobertEarl]

53. Yes.

And then if we discover a kook among that horde, we check further into their mental capacity.

[TipTok]

79. That's just creepy...

[Dreamer Tatum]

18. EGG-zactly. nt

[name not needed]

3. People like you are the reason the Fourth Amendment exists.

[RobertEarl]

6. Really?

You must be a gunner who lives in fear of not being able to shoot your precious gun?

Looking for insane people with guns is a highly intelligent bit of police work. The cops need to start doing smart things.

[John Poet]

48. So how are all of these cops qualified to make

a psychiatric diagnosis ion order to identify all of these "insane people" ?

[RobertEarl]

55. Special cops

This process is new and it will require special police capabilities.

[John Poet]

56. That's exactly what they said when the Nazis created the Gestapo:

"This process is new and it will require special police capabilities."


Your ideas are frightening, and it only adds a different type of profiling to those which are already being abused.

[RobertEarl]

61. Why does it scare you?

We really need to know why you are so frightened of police working to stop mass killers before they start shooting. It is, after all, part of their job description.

[Marengo]

86. Do you think law enforcement should investigate that poster?

[pinboy3niner]

59. We can call them the Special Tactics And Surveillance Investigators

Or STASI, for short.

[TipTok]

80. I chuckled...

Bravo...

[NutmegYankee]

91. LOL!

Awesome reply.

[X_Digger]

11. You scare me. Authoritarian shit like this.. is right-wing level bat shit crazy.

Fuck that first amendment and freedom of association, eh?

To hell with probable cause.

[RobertEarl]

12. You?

Again?

All these shooters have been at gun ranges and buying guns and ammo. It is merely smart police work to check out the users and make note of them. No such user has anything to fear if they are of sound mind.

[X_Digger]

13. I've heard that "you have nothing to fear if you're doing nothing wrong" crap from Repubs.

You can keep it, thanks.

:shiver:

[RobertEarl]

15. Not what I said

Last edited Mon Jul 11, 2016, 01:15 AM - Edit history (1)

But the most likely shooters are gun range users, and buyers of guns and ammo.

Such users need to be checked out and kept close track of their mental states.

If they check out ok, no problem.

Take the Dallas shooter... if he was on the suspicious list, an officer may have been able to stop him before he started shooting.

[oneshooter]

31. I do not go to public shooting ranges.

I have a 400 yard private range in my backyard.

[Odin2005]

78. Thanks for proving my belief that...

Those who want to abolish the 2nd Amendment will eventually go on to abolish the rest of the Bill of Rights.

[John Poet]

49. That was my thought.

[B2G]

14. I've heard people named Earl

Commit a lot of crimes. Maybe they should start by looking into them.

[RobertEarl]

17. What cops do

They go to strip bars looking for prostitutes.

They go undercover looking to arrest johns.

They make drug buys hoping to bust sellers of pot.

They sit at the side of the road looking for bad drivers.

They get wiretap warrants from judges looking for prostitutes and pot buyers.

They set up roadblocks looking to arrest people.

But they don't go to gun ranges and the like, looking for insane gunners? They should, starting tomorrow.

ETA: Any time there is a protest march they stand there and watch everyone with suspicion. Instead of watching the protesters, they should be spending time looking for dangerous gunners.

[WillowTree]

20. What do all of those situations have in common?

They do those things in an attempt to catch people doing something illegal.

What illegal thing do you suppose they would be looking for hanging around shooting ranges? What illegal thing do you suppose they would have found Johnson doing at such a range? Target Practice While Black?

[RobertEarl]

22. Drop the 'black' crap

Most of our shooters are whites.

They should be checking their licenses to carry and asking them about their mental health. DUH!

[WillowTree]

23. Do you mean to tell me.......

.......that if some cop came up to you in a public place with no probable cause whatsoever, where you were not only not doing anything wrong but were doing exactly what one would expect someone to be doing in that place and demanded to see your license and asking you stupid, prying questions regarding your mental health you wouldn't immediately go into Fourth Amendment mode?

I sure would, and I'm a whole lot more relaxed about contact with the police that most people around DU.

[RobertEarl]

27. No

It has happened more than once: a cop asking me what's up. It's part of their job.

If I was holding a rifle, I would totally expect a cop to check me out. If I am buying a gun, I want to have a background check done on me.

If I am a possibly insane shooter, I wouldn't want cops looking me over. But as a citizen I expect the cops to be doing just that.

So where to look for possible insane shooters? Not in a library. Not among weaponless citizens. You look for them at gun ranges and the ammo selling places, and like the Dallas shooter, at training camps.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

[WillowTree]

29. I guess it's time for you to start the petitions and campaign to repeal the 4th Amendment then.

Good luck with that.

[RobertEarl]

32. No.

In fact, it is the gunners who have shown they should be subject to reasonable search. I think every gunner should be presented before a Judge and let the Judge decide whether to issue a reasonable search warrant.

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. Yes, because judges have a special power granted them .....

That allows them to peer into a persons deepest thoughts.

You know what? Most judges run for positions on the bench because they are crappy lawyers. I have no confidence in their ability to detect whether or not a random person might go off the deep end some time in the future

[John Poet]

51. Please describe how a "possible insane shooter" looks.

I'm anxious to know, as I want to avoid such people.

[yeoman6987]

84. You better start hiring some police in large numbers like now for this to even possibly work

We'd need to double the number of cops at least.

[Alex4Martinez]

88. Most of those are police state bullshit. More PSB isn't the solution.

Unless you can describe a situation where by watching firing ranges a mass murder could be prevented, I think your suggestion falls flat.

We could, instead, look to the social and emotional and chemical causes of violent behavior and treat those.

Then the rest will work itself out.

[RobertEarl]

19. Damn, is DU dieing?`

Used to be, not long ago, the front page of DU-GD had no more than an hour from the first post to the last on the page. Just looked and the last post was 4 hours ago.

I'd have to think those who wanted DU to be hurt have won.

[KMOD]

21. DU is tired of the nonsense.

DU is moving on.

[pinboy3niner]

33. Yeah, Sunday nights are usually so fast-paced!

[TipTok]

81. No one is 'dieing'...

Just appreciating common sense and some ethical behavior...

[Logical]

26. Wow, wow, wow! Not worth even responding. Obvious you have not put 10 minutes.....

Of thought into this.

[RobertEarl]

28. And you less than one minute!

[Logical]

74. Lol, you are taking an ass kicking in this thread, i am glad. Nt

[Hoyt]

36. A bunch of so-called law-abiding gun owners fit this guy's profile and train similarly.

There are even folks posting here with body armor and urban warfare training, and proud of it. It's time put a stop to this madness before we start hearing that it's too late to do anything.

[Marengo]

41. Do you support the OPs idea?

[Hoyt]

72. I support OP much more than those who arm up.

[Marengo]

83. Since you support the idea, perhaps you can assist the OP in providing details...

Describing the criteria law enforcement would use to identify a "deranged" person at a shooting range. Do you support his proposal in post # 32?

[RobertEarl]

58. It's a start

Police need to change their MO and begin looking at gunners more closely than they do protesters.

[Matrosov]

42. Uh, what now?

The police need to be looking in all the likely places for people who show the propensity to cause havoc

So what's that propensity?

As much as I dislike guns, even I can admit that most people who visit shooting ranges or who attend tactical classes aren't having wet dreams about shooting people of color or even members of law enforcement.

[RobertEarl]

63. Where would you look for shooters?

Many of the gun lovers I know dream of civil war. Not all, but many. So they love to practice.

[cwydro]

95. So you have a lot of "gun lovers" as friends?

Why do I find that hard to believe given your spouting about how "gunners" are all nuts?

How would you know who is a "gun lover" or not?

Dude, this OP is so off the rails; all I can think is you didn't quite frame your thoughts thoroughly.

[Night Watchman]

43. Th-that Would be S-S-SOCIALISM!

[NutmegYankee]

94. Actually no - it would be totalitarianism.

Socialism is an economic system and can exist with or without individual freedom. People comment about socialism because some of the biggest states to adopt it were also totalitarian/autocratic societies.

[John Poet]

45. So.... What does a "deranged person" look like?

Large urban police departments probably have enough difficulty just keeping up with responding to actual crimes being committed, without trying to provide for staffing their own spy agency as well.

[RobertEarl]

50. Good question

Thing is a deranged killer without gun experience is far less likely to do as much damage as one with vast gun experience. So we look to the worst and work backwards. That means look at the gun ranges and those gunners for signs of derangement. Common sense.

[John Poet]

54. So what are these "signs of derangement" cops should look for?

Your non-answer says those particularly proficient with their weapons should be examined most closely first?

Most likely finds would be those with military experience, and, yes,
law enforcement types.

That is funny.

[RobertEarl]

57. Gotta do something

We can no longer afford to not look at gunners with great suspicion. They must be closely researched. Just by asking the Dallas shooter a few questions, might have kept the scene from ever happening. Just like speeders slow down when the see a cop on the side of the road.

[John Poet]

60. How about looking for illegal activity involving guns?

With all your interest in having the cops look for people who 'don't look right',
you've never even mentioned looking for actual illegal activity.

Instead, you want them to waste their resources spying on people who aren't breaking any laws.

[RobertEarl]

64. I am interested in stopping shooters

You have a problem with that?

[John Poet]

65. Go rent or download 'Minority Report' and watch it,

then get back to me.

Trying to prevent shootings is a good idea.
Creating a new fascist police state in order to do it, is not.

[bravenak]

69. Precrime

Nope. Bad idea.

[craigmatic]

66. If they did what you suggest they'd only look at black gun clubs and ranges just like driving while

black. They could've gotten rid of the kkk years ago if they wanted to but the law enforcement agencies are infiltrated by white supremacists.

[bravenak]

68. If cops need to find sketchy folks? They can just hang out at Walmart

The gun section at my local walmart have all kinds of sketchy looking folks. They wear camo. I think the connection is camo, really. They should just investigate anybody wearing camo since they are dressed like they want to shoot something. Camo is sneaky anyways. Trying to 'blend' in with nature to trick hapless moose. Trust me. Camo is dangerous.

[Stellar]

73. I am ROTF- LMAO!!!!

[meaculpa2011]

70. They all take selfies...

so why not require psych tests and criminal background checks for everyone who has ever posted a selfie.

I can support that.

[baldguy]

71. They do it all the time to left wing groups

For nothing more than planning on writing a letter to the editor, or printing leaflets to pass out.

[Captain Stern]

75. The Dallas shooter would have gained a sense of sanity if the cops had "had a talk with him"? LOL

Pardon my laughter, but that's ridiculous.

If we could cure insane people just by having the cops "have a talk" with them, we wouldn't have any insane people.

[Odin2005]

76. Yeah, let's get rid of that pesky 4th Amendment.

[mr clean]

82. How would the deal with the farmer

That has his own land in the country that their own shooting range?

[TeddyR]

85. Very totalitarian idea

I think we should let police stop and frisk anyone who "looks" suspicious. Agree?

[DonP]

89. Wow! That kind of thinking is just scary

It's like Bloomberg's "Stop and Frisk" (all POC) on steroids.

Congratulations, you are the only person on DU that wants to give the police unlimited powers.

Do you really think it would stop at just gun ranges?

Or that a "President Trump" might expand who should be under suspicion to include people like, oh say, annoying online posters?

[Brother Buzz]

90. You just keep thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at.

[NutmegYankee]

93. The KGB called - they want their agent back.

Proposing national surveillance - Seriously WTF?