153 years ago today the U.S. smashed the Rebel traitors at Gettysburg

[bluestateguy]

The ass-kicking at Pickett's Charge delivered a blow to the treasonous racist bastards.

[Ilsa]

1. 50,000 casualties.

I've read where they don't know for certain the number of Confederate deaths. A terrible part of our history. And some people want to fight it again.

[underpants]

2. Where? Is there an address?

[edhopper]

46. you should be ashamed

of yourself.

[underpants]

49. I've scored this a 4

Out of 10

[edhopper]

51. please

stop now.

[underpants]

52. I am simply the son of forth fathers

There is conceiving and consecrating involved

[pampango]

3. I think the Confederates were really rebelling against the neoliberal economic policies of

the industrialized North intended to keep them poor and the Northern 1% rich.

Just trying to use the word of the day in my posts.

Just kidding. It was a horrible, horrible war fought against a racist society by a less racist society. At a terrible cost progress was made.

[gordianot]

60. There was nothing "new" about it and not "Neo liberal" in the European usage of the term.

The South had its own 1% that sold a pack of lies duping people to do their dirty work. Even in the South there was a sizable number of people that did not like the idea of secession but got conscripted anyway. That and Americans are not pacifists a mistake made by many since that time.

There were as many poor in the North.

[packman]

4. I heard on some right-wing radio show that Gettysburg was a false flag

to brand all those liberal lovin' Northern states as racist? Could that be true?

[DonP]

5. In the "West" the siege of Vicksburg ended the same day for Grant

Effectively cutting the confederacy in half by controlling the entire Mississippi.

Gettysburg gets all the press in the history books because it was close to DC, but Vicksburg was an equally important victory in strategic terms for winning the war.

[TeddyR]

17. Yep

Hugely important

[MohRokTah]

45. And Vicksburg, Mississippi refused to celebrate July 4 for another 82 years

Not until the patriotic fervor of 1945 would Vicksburg, Mississippi celebrate the 4th again.

[Avalux]

6. My family's farm was (and is) right there.

Little round top, Pickett's charge....the Trostle Farm was ground zero and my family fled when the Confederates showed up, right before sitting down for dinner. The younger men were off fighting with the Union army, the older men women and children left with nothing but the clothes they were wearing. A very dark time in our country's and my family's history.

[Warpy]

28. I've been to the area and you can still feel that a terrible tragedy took place there

I'll bet every time the field is plowed, more is turned up--minie balls that missed their mark, belt buckles and other remains from those that didn't.

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. Rebranding the Union as a Progressive force for good is amusing

I wonder if there were any Whole Foods jobbers near the battlegrounds?

[eShirl]

35. ok...

[AwareOne]

8. Gleefully extolling the death of thousands of people is sick

There were no traitors at Gettysburg. At the end of the war, president Jefferson Davis was captured and held under Guantanamo like conditions by the union. Manacled, purposely sleep deprived and under constant observation by two guards as the radical Republican administration prepared to try him for treason. After two years they dropped the charges and let him go because they knew no treason had been committed and they were going to lose the biggest trial in history and admit to the world that they had started an illegal war that killed 800,000 Americans. Racists, sure, if you are going to judge 19th century people by 21st century mores than most Americans would be considered racist, even Lincoln.

[LongtimeAZDem]

10. The OP meant "rebels willing to kill Americans to 'preserve the blessings of African slavery'" (nt)

[scarletwoman]

65. +100! Well said!

[Orrex]

11. "No Treason in Civil War"

But I say that the South should not be punished for treason, because we agreed that she should not be. We came, in effect, into this agreement by consenting, reluctantly it is true, to have our War with her conducted according to the law of war - by which I mean the law of international war.

Full text HERE

[zazen]

12. how dare you disrupt their comfortable narratives of moral superiority?! n/t

[Odin2005]

23. Opposing a regime that glorifies Slavery and White Supremacy is always morally superior.

[Matrosov]

39. +1 n/t

[Marr]

55. I feel quite comfortable describing the Union as morally superior in that conflict.

[Odin2005]

18. Fuck that, Davis should have been shot as soon as he was captured.

Fuck him and shame on you for trying to defend them.

[XRubicon]

20. ^^^^ This ^^^^

[The Second Stone]

27. Hanged, not shot

Defending Davis for treason is disgusting. But very confederate

[Surya Gayatri]

30. ^^^AMEN to this!^^^

[bluestateguy]

63. Well, I do think Davis should have been given a fair trial

And then shot.

[NutmegYankee]

26. Under Article III section 3, it was Treason.

Davis was released because no one wanted to potentially stir up trouble again after the South was finally pacified.

[localroger]

31. And you have Robert E. Lee to thank for that pacification

Lee deserves plenty of blame for ending up on the wrong side of history but he faced a horrific choice between his country and his home, in an age when home was much more important to most people. And after the war Lee spent the rest of his life traveling the south encouraging his former CSA countrymen to accept the conclusion and move on instead of engaging in the kind of guerrilla warfare which, particularly at the time, was known to have worked so well for the revolutionaries who drove off the British to found the US.

As for Jefferson Davis, fuck that guy, and HAHA that Katrina all but washed away his fucking shrine in Biloxi. But anyone who wants to tear down a statue of Lee is a fucking idiot.

[NutmegYankee]

34. Lee was a very honorable individual, which is why even the North respected him.

He paid a very brutal price for leading the CSA's army, but he did help stitch the country back together.

[XRubicon]

29. He put his wife's dress on to avoid capture

He was a coward too.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=18650516&id=8_cqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3dgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4916,137617&hl=en

[yardwork]

32. The slaves were treated far worse.

Jefferson Davis was a traitor and he was released because the winning side felt it was best to try to move on and heal.

Don't glorify the confederacy. Their cause was evil and it's good they lost.

[Humanist_Activist]

40. I'm sorry, who the fucked fired on Fort Sumter? The Confederates started an illegal war...

not the Union.

[Scientific]

9. Pickett kinda kicked his own ass

Arrogance will cause that.

[1939]

14. While Pickett probably had his share of arrogance

his division made the attack because it was told to make the attack and made the attack in exactly the place and time he was told to do it.

Lee, Longstreet, and Hill were responsible for the crappy command relationships and the flawed organization, disposition, and coordination of the attacking force.

Both flanks of the attack (i.e. the left of Pettigrew and the right of Pickett) were unprotected and were flanked by union forces. Had Pender's whole division been used, they could have covered the entire rear of Pettigrew's division. By the same token, if Wilcox's and Perry's brigades of Anderson moved forward on Pickett's right flank, it would have been covered. Wilcox and Perry did advance, but so late in the day that Pickett had already been repulsed and all they did was add to the CSA casualty list.

[TeddyR]

19. After Fredericksburg

Lee should have known you can't send men across an open field against a fortified position.

[1939]

44. You don't charge straight up a mountainside

But Sheridan did that at Missionary Ridge and broke the Confederate line.

The problem with the attack on Cemetery Ridge (which wasn't a mountain by any stretch of the imagination) was that eleven brigades were supposed to make the attack (only three of which were Picketts) and only four really made an impact at the top as the others were waylaid in one way or another.

Lee didn't really think through the organization of the attack. He assigned Isaac Trimble to command Pender's division in place of the wounded Pender. Trimble arrived just as the division was stepping off in support of Pettigrew. Trimble didn't have time to get the two brigades organized or even to let all of the commanders know that he was in charge.

Like I said in another thread, a very high precetage of the confederate general officers on the field had a collective brain fart on those three days.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. There were abolitionists in the South, and Pro-slavers in the North...

The same with secession. There were people on both sides who "crossed the line" to fight for the "other" side.

It's a terrible time in our country's history and neither the North nor the South were 100% blameless for either slavery or the totality of death and destruction it caused.

[TeddyR]

22. Yeah

I grew up in the mountains of NC and had ancestors who fought for the Union and some who fought for the Confederacy. And one I believe who fought for both.

[LongtimeAZDem]

15. Of course neither side was 100% blameless

However, since one side was willing to got to war and kill tens of thousands in order to preserve human slavery as an institution, it's also wrong to imply that the blame was even close to equal.

Edited to add: sorry, this should have been in response to Post #13

[Odin2005]

16. The 1st Minnesota FTW!

I have zero sympathy for the South. Zero. They should have been punished far more harshly than they were.

[sarisataka]

24. We still have the flag

and according to Gov. Dayton, Virginia isn't getting it back anytime soon.

[Odin2005]

25. Yes we do! It's ours, now, Slaver scum!

[Brickbat]

48. Loved that dust-up.

Don't start something unless you can end it -- even 150 years later.

[raccoon]

33. Most Northerners didn't care a hoot about slaves. and they

sure didn't want freed slaves, or Irish immigrants, or other groups, competing with them for good jobs. Some thought they were fighting to "preserve the Union"--as if that were a holy cause.

They weren't a bunch of liberal non-racists. And look how they treated the Native Americans.

Many men on both sides were drafted.

I'm sick of people claiming all this moral superiority for the Northerners.

[bvar22]

36. The State that holds the record for the most Black Men lynched in one day is....

New York City, 1863...
SEE: Draft Riots.

I've always found it ironic that the Army that altruistically "Freed the Black Man"
is the very same army that immediately turned West and waged a War of Genocide against the Red Man.

History is full of these kinds of irony that goes completely over the heads of those who don't want to know, but only blame.

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. Moral superiority is what gets some people through the night.

Or at least, the perception of it in themselves.

[Adrahil]

42. Do you not believe ....

The moral position of the USA was superior to the CSA?

I am not saying the North held no blame, or that all the North were abolitionists, but the CSA was founded to preserve slavery...

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. I do believe that.

But reading the posts of people 150 years removed from that period in time gets to be a bit comical. They won the "birth lottery" in that they weren't born in "The South". Their perception of moral superiority carries no weight with me.

[cherokeeprogressive]

56. What the fuck do YOU think?

Am I alright with slavery? Do you think that even deserves a response? I don't. Tell you what though. You go back and read what I wrote, then ask yourself... "In my heart of hearts, do I believe this post was saying cherokeeprogressive is alright with slavery? In my heart of hearts, do I believe that, or was I merely posting snark?"

I don't give a fuck who your relatives fought for, but thanks for giving credence to my "birth lottery" comment.

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. Can you repost the part where I said "I'm alright with slavery"?

Cuz I think I missed that part.

[XRubicon]

43. No

"The United States first employed national conscription during the American Civil War. The vast majority of troops were volunteers; of the 2,100,000 Union soldiers, about 2% were draftees, and another 6% were substitutes paid by draftees."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States#Civil_War

[GeorgeGist]

37. And now they're everywhere.

[MohRokTah]

47. The day Lee showed he wasn't a great general.

Like every general before him, he fought the present war with the tactics of the last war.

And that is why the casualties were so high. The firearms were superior to anything that came before and the ammunition was, and remains, among the most devastating ever.

The greatest general of the war was William Tecumseh Sherman who knew how to fight a modern war in the latter half of the 19th century.

[Lithos]

54. Disagree with your choice of Sherman...

General George Thomas, the Rock of Chickamauga, would be a better choice for the Union side. He did something that Sherman did not do - he destroyed a Confederate Army in the field. (Battle of Nashville) effectively closing the campaign in the Western theatre.

From the Confederate side, there would be General Longstreet, whose advice would have saved Lee at Gettysburg. His actions at The Wilderness almost routed the Army of the Potomac, but stopped when he was wounded.

Other good generals include:

General Patrick Cleburne;
General Stonewall Jackson
Admiral Farragut (Porter would be a good second choice). In addition to the blockage, the Union Navy was a major component in many Union victories including Vicksburg, New Orleans, Mobile, Fort Fisher)
General Winfield Scott (whose Anaconda plan proved correct) and whose plan served as the template for Union operations.
General Sheridan
General Forrest
General Meade

Easier list is the worst general... My short list includes Hood, Polk, Pillow, McClellan, Butler and Bragg. Probably Hood, though there is some serious competition there.

L-

[MohRokTah]

61. At least we can agree Lee was not a great general.

He fought shitty generals which led directly to the myth that he was great.

I stand by my choice of Sherman as he was the only general who fought a TOTAL WAR, which all war must be. No other general in either side had the courage to do what needed to be done. You are fighting not just the enemy on the field of battle, you must always fight that enemy's capability to wage war behind the lines.

Sherman is why there was a bombing campaign in World War II.

ALL WAR IS TOTAL WAR, else it is no war at all and is easily glorified.

[Lithos]

64. Lee was a good general

He was a great organizer and a great advocate for his troops.

During Gettysburg he was sick and he was starting to suffer from the cardio issues which would ultimately kill him. This affected his judgement tremendously. One of his greatest strengths was giving his subordinates a significant amount of latitude in their actions. Unfortunately one of them, JEB Stuart, took advantage of this and went off out of control depriving Lee of his intelligence about the location and strength of the Union Army - which led to Gettysburg.

As for TOTAL war - if that is your criteria - then Gen. Forrest did this better than Sherman who came across as a dullard. Also understand that Sherman would have failed had it not been for Gen. Thomas who with only a corps protected Sherman's supply lines by out maneuvering the Confederate Army of Tennessee and annihilating it at the Battle of Nashville. If Hood had been up against a lesser General then it might have been a Union disaster.

L-

[Lithos]

59. Your choice of vocabulary is incendiary...

The people who fought on both sides were not so single-issue.

Yes, one of the biggest causes of the Civil War was slavery. Yes, it was *the* underlying issue why politicians and their economic supporters chose to push for secession. But once the deed was done, it was not the reason why people chose to fight; why the common man left their farms to join into the campaign. What caused most people to fight was an appeal to Patriotism and to defense of Home and Hearth.

One of the biggest outcomes of the Civil War was the forging of a national identity when previously many people thought first of their state. Robert E. Lee is the easiest example of this - he waited to see where Virginia voted before resigning. He could not fight against his state. Once the state took side, many chose to rally to their state's colors. Many other people were conscripted, or served for economic reasons (paid to serve), or were called up because they were part of the standing militia. Many didn't fight for slavery, they fought for home and hearth. And those who fought because of Slavery were typically from the North, but it was not a given that people fighting in the Union Army was fighting to end slavery.

Of note is that the Civil War was one of the first Modern wars. In addition to the first modern weapons (machine guns, balloons, telegrams, mobility, ironclads), the Civil War was also one of the first which featured major propaganda efforts by both sides. It was relatively easy for the North to demonize the South over Slavery, while the South viewed the North in similar ways. This was the only way they could keep people motivated to fight such a nasty war. No different than the propaganda of WW 2 which demonized the Germans and Japanese and which these countries issued in turn against us.

But unlike WW2, the propaganda created during the Civil War is still being repeated today which is keeping the war alive. The war has ended, the propaganda needs to stop.

See:

https://ideologicalart.wordpress.com/war/



L-

[Ishoutandscream2]

62. And I keep seeing here that the South continues to fight the Civil War

Yet, it seems the opposite at DU.

[edhopper]

66. ask people in the South who won

I keep hearing "we lost". And not the Civil War but the War of Northern Aggression.

I don't see DUers with Army of the North Flags.

[SwankyXomb]

67. There's Dixie Shitheads everywhere these days

They'll be out in force tomorrow, waving their Klan Diapers and claiming to be patriots.

[Ishoutandscream2]

68. Whoosh, right over your head

[edhopper]

71. no

I got it. Just saying it's bullshit.

[Ishoutandscream2]

69. And I will ask

All of my family, friends I'll see next week, people I work with. Almost all from the state of Texas, which sided with the South. And not one of them will say the South won. They don't even think or talk about it.

[edhopper]

70. Not my expedience

In S. Carolina and Georgia. They say "we lost".

Texas is much more obsessed with the Mexican American War and the Alamo.