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boston bean

(36,225 posts)
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:59 PM Jun 2016

Why are people so averse to acknowledging that organized religion, almost ALL organized religion

is homophobic, misogynist.

I don't understand the hesitation in calling this what it is when it comes to Islam in particular. Seems most don't have a problem identifying this in the christian religions.

84 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why are people so averse to acknowledging that organized religion, almost ALL organized religion (Original Post) boston bean Jun 2016 OP
I'm an agnostic with atheist tendencies bonemachine Jun 2016 #1
Well said! TexasProgresive Jun 2016 #2
Do you think what I wrote is muslim bashing? boston bean Jun 2016 #3
No bonemachine Jun 2016 #5
So do you think this post is muslim "baiting"? boston bean Jun 2016 #17
Yes. bonemachine Jun 2016 #20
I don't see it that way. boston bean Jun 2016 #22
Muslims are not the worst offenders here though whatthehey Jun 2016 #75
No, you're "organized religion bashing" whathehell Jun 2016 #77
I luv ya, bone. ChairmanAgnostic Jun 2016 #71
it is worse when it comes to Islam also JI7 Jun 2016 #4
Considering all of the things that are implicitly (or interpretationally) authorized in the Bible... TwilightZone Jun 2016 #8
but Christians who support gays usually don't try to defend their position JI7 Jun 2016 #10
"Muslims should say it doesn't matter...when it comes to public laws" TwilightZone Jun 2016 #34
they usually say Islam or the quran does not approve of it JI7 Jun 2016 #37
Westboro Baptist and generations of GOP politicians say the Bible doesn't approve of it, either. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #39
most dem politicians are christians also and oppose those republicans JI7 Jun 2016 #43
And most American Muslims don't think one should go shoot 103 people in a gay bar in Florida. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #47
yeah. But their argument should be that it's wrong to do it regardless of JI7 Jun 2016 #48
You don't serm to know much about Islam eom noiretextatique Jun 2016 #66
Despite their rhetoric, Westboro doesn't go out killing people.. whathehell Jun 2016 #78
How so? True Earthling Jun 2016 #14
I think you missed the point. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #33
Actually I think you missed the point LiberalLovinLug Jun 2016 #44
I have no idea where you got the idea that I'm excusing anything. Quite the opposite. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #53
Excusing may be the wrong word LiberalLovinLug Jun 2016 #57
I missed the point because that's not what you said. True Earthling Jun 2016 #45
"the post wasn't criticizing "all Muslims" - au contraire TwilightZone Jun 2016 #50
That's a criticism? True Earthling Jun 2016 #58
Agreed. nt. BootinUp Jun 2016 #26
Have Islamists killed more Christians? bvar22 Jun 2016 #84
Because the vast majority of 'believers' are peaceful enough. randome Jun 2016 #6
Then how is it that several countires execute gay people under Islamic law, if the majority are Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #12
I meant in the entirety of religion. Most people who are religious to some degree or another... randome Jun 2016 #28
Here's the problem romanic Jun 2016 #68
To more directly answer your question: bonemachine Jun 2016 #7
So then we should discuss the real paradigm, straight people who attack LGBT. Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #13
Well... bonemachine Jun 2016 #15
Because it's not true. B2G Jun 2016 #9
Really? progressoid Jun 2016 #24
Until last year wryter2000 Jun 2016 #27
Woo hoo! progressoid Jun 2016 #65
Because it's ridiculously false. Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #11
Standard procedure Matrosov Jun 2016 #16
It's not that it has NOTHING to do with religion bonemachine Jun 2016 #21
The shooter was an ISIS sympathizer. It WAS terrorism. Quantess Jun 2016 #69
ISIS represents Islam in a similar fashion to how bonemachine Jun 2016 #74
Agreed. I personally know some very nice muslim women who dress western and show their hair Quantess Jun 2016 #81
...and from what we know bonemachine Jun 2016 #82
Okay. He was obviously mentally disturbed. Quantess Jun 2016 #83
I don't see anything in religion Mendocino Jun 2016 #18
Because it is not true? Odin2005 Jun 2016 #19
Jesus said nothing against gay people that I'm aware of steve2470 Jun 2016 #23
Some links to back you up Tsiyu Jun 2016 #25
But they don't act on that impulse. randome Jun 2016 #31
Right. Christians are so peaceful Tsiyu Jun 2016 #35
I specifically meant the big-mouths you linked to. The ones calling for death. randome Jun 2016 #59
Look, I'll be blunt: What is the foundational ur-narrative of all 3 western Monotheisms? Warren DeMontague Jun 2016 #29
the timeline thing is bs also JI7 Jun 2016 #42
It's an observation, nothing more. Warren DeMontague Jun 2016 #52
Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. yallerdawg Jun 2016 #30
I'm not Skittles Jun 2016 #32
I always thought it was pretty damn obvious myself. Mr Maru Jun 2016 #36
Because people can't separate religion from the people nadine_mn Jun 2016 #38
Okay lets separate religion from the people LiberalLovinLug Jun 2016 #51
Because of Episcopalians, UUs, some Sufi groups, and others who aren't. MisterFred Jun 2016 #40
This message was self-deleted by its author MisterFred Jun 2016 #41
Islam is the enemy of Christianity...Christians are GOP friendly. ileus Jun 2016 #46
Many here are Hypocrites when it comes to Islam FLPanhandle Jun 2016 #49
Islam is seen as a Third World relgion, and many progressives are reluctant to criticize Ex Lurker Jun 2016 #54
because the only major religion that is consistently killing people, gay people included, MariaThinks Jun 2016 #55
haven't read any of the thread, but this immediately came to mind: Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #56
Because it is not true. L. Coyote Jun 2016 #60
"none of us can close our eyes to the fact that we do face enemies who use their distorted version Warren DeMontague Jun 2016 #61
The question is whether it's "distorted" MellowDem Jun 2016 #62
I do not believe it is anything like a "vast majority", myself. Warren DeMontague Jun 2016 #63
Because most, maybe even on DU, identify with one of them... MellowDem Jun 2016 #64
I will always side with women, and gays, and trangenedered, and cartoonists who draw Muhammed, Quantess Jun 2016 #67
A-FUCKING-MEN! backscatter712 Jun 2016 #70
Hey hey hey... reign88 Jun 2016 #80
Not me. This is something we agree upon. aikoaiko Jun 2016 #72
This is one of those rare instances in which you and I seem to agree. Scuba Jun 2016 #73
Yep. A pox on all religion and nonsensical supernatural bullshit. May it wither and die. Arugula Latte Jun 2016 #76
I absolutely agree with you. Kurovski Jun 2016 #79

bonemachine

(757 posts)
1. I'm an agnostic with atheist tendencies
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:10 PM
Jun 2016

...and I heartily condemn all religions.

That said, using this as an opportunity to engage in Muslim baiting is counterproductive at best. It's taking two vulnerable minorities in this country and pitting them against each other, and that's fucking gross.

Not to mention the folks who aren't even Muslim that end up the victim of anti-Muslim attacks, because bigots are dumb and brown people all look the same.

bonemachine

(757 posts)
5. No
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:17 PM
Jun 2016

I used the term Muslim baiting, which is similar, but at least to me has different connotations.

It's the difference between an outright racial slur and a *nudge nudge* *wink wink*, I suppose...

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
75. Muslims are not the worst offenders here though
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 11:47 AM
Jun 2016

Our own Protestant, let alone evangelical Christians, with about 60 times the population, are less accepting



And when you look at atheists and the so-called-agnostics you see religion surely has a major impact on GLBT acceptance.

whathehell

(29,110 posts)
77. No, you're "organized religion bashing"
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 11:55 AM
Jun 2016

despite the rather obvious fact that Seventh Day Adventists aren't gunning down the popoulation.

JI7

(89,288 posts)
4. it is worse when it comes to Islam also
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:16 PM
Jun 2016

I also think debating the Quran and what is actually saying is stupid .

Because it shouldn't matter what the Quran says. People should still know it's not right to shoot a bunch of people to death. Even if the quran says it's ok.

TwilightZone

(25,517 posts)
8. Considering all of the things that are implicitly (or interpretationally) authorized in the Bible...
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:22 PM
Jun 2016

the selective outrage about parts of the Quran often seems a little misplaced.

JI7

(89,288 posts)
10. but Christians who support gays usually don't try to defend their position
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:29 PM
Jun 2016

By debating religious text.

That's why i think Muslims should say it doesn't matter what the quran says when it comes to public laws .

If one thinks homosexuality is wrong based on their religion then THEY don't have to engage in it. But they don't have the right to attack others for not following their religion in a certain way.

TwilightZone

(25,517 posts)
34. "Muslims should say it doesn't matter...when it comes to public laws"
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:40 PM
Jun 2016

Many - probably the vast, vast majority of them - do. You think the three million Muslims in the US all think public laws should be ignored if they're countered by the Quran?

"but Christians who support gays usually don't try to defend their position By debating religious text."

No, but Christians who oppose gays do. It's often the only reason they can come up with.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

TwilightZone

(25,517 posts)
39. Westboro Baptist and generations of GOP politicians say the Bible doesn't approve of it, either.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:58 PM
Jun 2016

I'm not sure how one is any better than the other in that regard.

Even the extent isn't that much different. There are Christians who think gays should be stoned to death.

Remember Ted Cruz's "kill the gays" pastor?

TwilightZone

(25,517 posts)
47. And most American Muslims don't think one should go shoot 103 people in a gay bar in Florida.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:19 PM
Jun 2016

There are extremists in many, if not most, religions. They do not represent the whole.

JI7

(89,288 posts)
48. yeah. But their argument should be that it's wrong to do it regardless of
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:28 PM
Jun 2016

What the religion says.

whathehell

(29,110 posts)
78. Despite their rhetoric, Westboro doesn't go out killing people..
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 12:27 PM
Jun 2016

That's the beginning and end of it, I'd say.

True Earthling

(832 posts)
14. How so?
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:48 PM
Jun 2016

How does similar ideology in Christian texts make Islamic ideology less offensive? I see this meme repeated over and over here. I am a hard core atheist and condemn all incidents of bigotry, misogyny, homophobia regardless of what group or religion advocates such nonsense.

So you disapprove of any condemnation of a single group unless all groups who commit similar offenses or advocate similar views are equally condemned at the same time? ...Why?

Do you want to apply this to all discussions on all topics or does it just apply to Islam?

TwilightZone

(25,517 posts)
33. I think you missed the point.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:37 PM
Jun 2016

My point was that self-professed Christians criticizing all Muslims for select parts of the Quran when many parts of the Bible are similarly offensive (and selectively ignored) - at least in the way some interpret them - is hypocritical.

You disagree?

LiberalLovinLug

(14,180 posts)
44. Actually I think you missed the point
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:11 PM
Jun 2016

You are still onto the same meme. Why are you even bringing up "self-professed Christians" at all? Who cares what another bunch of brainwashed cultists think? Specifically, why should their positions influence at all what you think of violent radicals who use Islam as their shield?

If its wrong its wrong. And in this case its beyond wrong. Its horrible.

I for one do not have to wait until every last fundamentalist Christian in America admits that they too believe in a violent God, for me to say that this was a deplorable act and that it is a terrible truth that Islam has been used way too often as some kind of excuse for the most abhorrent behaviour of inhumane acts on other humans.

TwilightZone

(25,517 posts)
53. I have no idea where you got the idea that I'm excusing anything. Quite the opposite.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:41 PM
Jun 2016

A) People who claim to be Christians insist that the Bible calls for gay people to be stoned to death. Ted Cruz's pastor has made this argument recently.

B) Those same people in A) deplore Islam because they say that the Quran says that gay people should be killed.

A) makes B) hypocritical.

Clear enough?

LiberalLovinLug

(14,180 posts)
57. Excusing may be the wrong word
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 08:14 PM
Jun 2016

but again, who the fuck cares what Ted Cruz and like minded cultists think? That is where I am sensing your, if not excuse, your plausible deniability of the influence of Islam, and specifically the many radical Imans that push a violent interpretation of the Koran.

Yes yes, a thousand times yes...many self proclaimed Christians are hypocrites when it come to this issue as you say.

But my point is how and why that should effect the earned vitriol by non-Christians, or even moderate Christians, liberals, DU members etc..

There was a time when Christianity was just as violent ie. the Inquisition, the Crusades. But they have learned that in order for their religion to survive the modern western world they had to blatantly ignore parts of their own Holy Book. Most of the few Christian terrorists have more political motives than religious ones today, like the big bad gub'mint.

Islam seems to be at the same point as Christianity was then. A majority of those in Muslim nations still believe that apostates should be put to death FFS. I believe all religion is a scourge on humankind, but at this point in history, Islam is being used to perpetrate horrors way more than Christianity. And liberals should not be afraid to call them out on it without being afraid that because there are some in their own country that call themselves Christian but are hypocrites, they dare not.

True Earthling

(832 posts)
45. I missed the point because that's not what you said.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:14 PM
Jun 2016

You made a general statement with no mention that you were speaking of "self-professed Christians"... I have no idea if the post you were responding to was written by a Christian. ..do you know that for sure?

Also..the post you responded to criticized the Quran and those who blindly follow the violent, misogynistic, homophobic directives.. the post wasn't criticizing "all Muslims".

Criticizing a religion is not the same as criticizing those who identify with a religion. Religious identity come in many flavors, forms and strengths... many Muslims call themselves Muslim out of fear and are not religious at all...others are fanatical extremists. There are many flavors in-between.

TwilightZone

(25,517 posts)
50. "the post wasn't criticizing "all Muslims" - au contraire
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:34 PM
Jun 2016

Oh, but the poster is criticizing all Muslims:

"That's why i think Muslims should say it doesn't matter what the quran says when it comes to public laws."

Read the poster's other comments in this thread. I think you'll find that your interpretation of what is being said is very different than you thought.

True Earthling

(832 posts)
58. That's a criticism?
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 08:28 PM
Jun 2016

He didn't say "all Muslims follow the Quran and violate public laws". He's saying public laws should be respected regardless of what the Quran says. To call that criticism is a HUGE stretch.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
84. Have Islamists killed more Christians?
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 06:09 PM
Jun 2016

Or has the United States, sometimes labeled a "Christian Nation" killed more Muslims (Men, women, and children) in the last 20 years, and continues raise the Body Count daily.

Do you think this might have something to do with the problem?

The guy responsible for the killings was insane (as far as I'm concerned), and happened to be a Muslim.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
6. Because the vast majority of 'believers' are peaceful enough.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:19 PM
Jun 2016

I agree completely with you, that all religion is equally contemptible, but a straightforward address of your question (hey, where's the question mark?) leads to what I said.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
12. Then how is it that several countires execute gay people under Islamic law, if the majority are
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:40 PM
Jun 2016

so tolerant? It seems like a majority when that's the rule of law in nations. Downplaying that fact is not good. Do you think the majority of whites in South Africa were not racist, just swept up in the will of a handful of bad eggs? I don't.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
28. I meant in the entirety of religion. Most people who are religious to some degree or another...
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:56 PM
Jun 2016

...are peaceful. And we give enormous leeway to letting people choose their philosophies for themselves so when tragedies like Orlando occur, we're caught between condemnation and recognition that it's a small subset of a much larger majority.

But yeah, some specific countries act on beliefs that are abhorrent to most people and it's hard to reconcile that with what we think of an individual's right to choose philosophies.

If it was possible to 'talk' people out of religion, I would be wholeheartedly for that but it's not. Maybe it's hard-wired in us, some more than others.

romanic

(2,841 posts)
68. Here's the problem
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 06:02 AM
Jun 2016

The "vast majority" aren't the ones running all of the countries in the ME that use Islam as a code of law. That is creating all kinds of problems not just in the ME but the entire world with Islamic extremists.

bonemachine

(757 posts)
7. To more directly answer your question:
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:19 PM
Jun 2016

The biggest cause of the apparently logical disconnect that you are feeling is because, at least in this country, Christians are a majority and Muslims are a minority.

Criticizing someone's majority religion has a different text and tone to it than attacking someones minority religion.

It's the same sort of reasoning that makes it different to make blanket statements about, say "white men" or "black men".

In this country, one is a majority group with lots of inherent privilege, and one is a minority group that has been the subject of lots of discrimination.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
13. So then we should discuss the real paradigm, straight people who attack LGBT.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:44 PM
Jun 2016

The brand of heterosexual does not matter. It's the heterosexual community doing this, not segments of it. That's what you mean, right? The majority, straight folks, attack a minority, LGBT using laws and guns and whatnot. The majority has inherent privilege and the majority are straight folks.

bonemachine

(757 posts)
15. Well...
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:49 PM
Jun 2016

It's not the point I was making, but I'd say it has some validity. It doesn't take into account that a non-negligible percentage of the most virulent homophobes have homosexual tendencies that they themselves are trying to repress, though...

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
9. Because it's not true.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:23 PM
Jun 2016

You are making the same wild generalizations you've been railing against for the past 2 days.

progressoid

(50,020 posts)
24. Really?
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:40 PM
Jun 2016

I'm trying to think of a female who is the head of a major religion.

Or that even treats women or LGTQ as equals. Some protestants are slowly catching up to the 20th century. But it's kind of like their stance on scientific discoveries. After a few decades, they eventually change their dogma to match reality.

Well, Hindus have a lot of Goddesses. But it still teaches that women are supposed to be subservient to men so that's not really all that helpful.




wryter2000

(46,133 posts)
27. Until last year
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:48 PM
Jun 2016

When she was term limited out, Presiding Bishop Katherine Jefferts-Schori, head of the Episcopal Church.

progressoid

(50,020 posts)
65. Woo hoo!
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 11:20 PM
Jun 2016

Good for her.

Of course she's the head of a denomination that worships a male God with a male Son/savior and male Apostles from a book written by men chock full-o-misogyny.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
11. Because it's ridiculously false.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:36 PM
Jun 2016

Almost as ridiculous as the reflexive need to criticize all religions when critiquing Islam.

When Dylann Roof killed a fraction of the number that Mateen did, I recall exactly no one dragging Islam into it.

 

Matrosov

(1,098 posts)
16. Standard procedure
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:52 PM
Jun 2016

Criticism of Christianity and Judaism is fair game.

Criticism of Islam makes you a racist Islamophobe.

Notice how hard some people are trying to argue Orlando had nothing to do with religion, even though in some Islamic countries you can actually be executed for being homosexual.

bonemachine

(757 posts)
21. It's not that it has NOTHING to do with religion
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:19 PM
Jun 2016

But, in my opinion, focusing on Islam is not just failing to see the forest for a single tree, but is also akin to striking sparks in a forest fire zone, if you'll forgive the mixing of the metaphors.

Making this about Islam is pitting two vulnerable minorities against each other and does nothing towards solving homophobia or mass shootings.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
69. The shooter was an ISIS sympathizer. It WAS terrorism.
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 06:18 AM
Jun 2016

Women, gays, transgendered people, people of other religions, are routinely killed and oppressed by muslim extremists. Maybe not in the USA, but internationally, absolutely.

This "mass shooting" as you call it, is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Islamic extremism.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
81. Agreed. I personally know some very nice muslim women who dress western and show their hair
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 01:34 PM
Jun 2016

Obviously I am not talking about the slightly religious people or even the moderately religious. I seem to need to make this disclaimer every single time!

Also, have you ever seen me praising christianity? I'll save you some time by letting you know the answer is NO.

bonemachine

(757 posts)
82. ...and from what we know
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 03:02 PM
Jun 2016

This guy declared his allegiance to multiple groups that are at odds with each other, so there's that to boot.

I stand by my conviction that making this about Islam in the myriad of ways I have seen folks doing is divisive, dog-whistley, and counterproductive.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
83. Okay. He was obviously mentally disturbed.
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 03:11 PM
Jun 2016

THAT much I definitely can see. His Muslim upbringing told him he was a worthless sinner, which explains the wives. He felt the need to be a normal muslim man and get married to a woman.

His religion told him he was a sinner. Same unfortunate shit if he happened to be brought up in a strict Christian home.

OBVIOUSLY religion is to blame!

Mendocino

(7,530 posts)
18. I don't see anything in religion
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:06 PM
Jun 2016

that can't be accomplished by anyone with empathy. Religion has no claim on it, it is often it's enemy. I'll meet my fate whatever that is, with knowing that how I treat others is more important that what dogma I adhere to.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
23. Jesus said nothing against gay people that I'm aware of
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:31 PM
Jun 2016

Yes, the OLD Testament has a lot of BS, but AFAIK Jesus didn't endorse all that shit.

Fundamentalists and the insane fringe element in all religions do this. Not the leftist rational ones.

Not going to debate Christianity, folks. Don't waste your time.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
25. Some links to back you up
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:45 PM
Jun 2016

Mateen is one of many who want gays killed:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/11/scott-esk-stoning-gays_n_5486678.html

A shocking California ballot proposal that calls for gays and lesbians to be “put to death by bullets to the head” is triggering a widespread backlash for the author -- while also raising questions about the state's unique and sometimes-troublesome ballot initiative process.

Orange County lawyer Matthew Gregory McLaughlin filed the “Sodomite Suppression Act” late last month with the state attorney general's office. The initiative, which purports to give residents the authority to act as executioners, contains incendiary language that already is being called outright hate speech.

The proposal reads: “Seeing that it is better that offenders should die rather than that all of us should be killed by God’s just wrath against us for the folly of tolerating wickedness in our midst, the people of California wisely command, in the fear of God, that any person who willingly touches another person of the same gender for purposes of sexual gratification be put to death by bullets to the head or by any other convenient method.”

McLaughlin's proposal also calls for banning gays -- or “sodomites” – from holding public office. Those found guilty of spreading propaganda would be fined $1 million and/or thrown in jail for a decade. He or she could also be banned from California for life, under the proposal.



Videos of frothing-at-the-mouth Christians advocating murder and violence (Damn, some Christians are some bloodthirsty fucks!):



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/11/scott-esk-stoning-gays_n_5486678.html










There are quite a few Christians who would execute 100 gays tomorrow if they thought they could get away with it. Their "Prince of Peace" is really cool with that, too.




 

randome

(34,845 posts)
31. But they don't act on that impulse.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:01 PM
Jun 2016

If you accept someone's intense hatred of someone else's lifestyle (for argument's sake), it's still hard to understand why you would shoot a bunch of strangers knowing that you're committing suicide at the same time.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
35. Right. Christians are so peaceful
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:49 PM
Jun 2016

they never do terrorism, right? Jesus fuck.....




http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

From Fox News to the Weekly Standard, neoconservatives have tried to paint terrorism as a largely or exclusively Islamic phenomenon. Their message of Islamophobia has been repeated many times since the George W. Bush era: Islam is inherently violent, Christianity is inherently peaceful, and there is no such thing as a Christian terrorist or a white male terrorist. But the facts don’t bear that out. Far-right white male radicals and extreme Christianists are every bit as capable of acts of terrorism as radical Islamists, and to pretend that such terrorists don’t exist does the public a huge disservice. Dzhokhar Anzorovich Tsarnaev and the late Tamerlan Anzorovich Tsarnaev (the Chechen brothers suspected in the Boston Marathon bombing of April 15, 2013) are both considered white and appear to have been motivated in part by radical Islam. And many terrorist attacks in the United States have been carried out by people who were neither Muslims nor dark-skinned.

When white males of the far right carry out violent attacks, neocons and Republicans typically describe them as lone-wolf extremists rather than people who are part of terrorist networks or well-organized terrorist movements. Yet many of the terrorist attacks in the United States have been carried out by people who had long histories of networking with other terrorists. In fact, most of the terrorist activity occurring in the United States in recent years has not come from Muslims, but from a combination of radical Christianists, white supremacists and far-right militia groups.

snip

5. The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996. Paul Jennings Hill is hardly the only Christian terrorist who has been praised by the Army of God; that organization has also praised Eric Rudolph, who is serving life without parole for a long list of terrorist attacks committed in the name of Christianity. Rudolph is best known for carrying out the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta during the 1996 Summer Olympics—a blast that killed spectator Alice Hawthorne and wounded 111 others. Hawthorne wasn’t the only person Rudolph murdered: his bombing of an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama in 1998 caused the death of Robert Sanderson (a Birmingham police officer and part-time security guard) and caused nurse Emily Lyons to lose an eye.

Rudolph’s other acts of Christian terrorism include bombing the Otherwise Lounge (a lesbian bar in Atlanta) in 1997 and an abortion clinic in an Atlanta suburb in 1997. Rudolph was no lone wolf: he was part of a terrorist movement that encouraged his violence. And the Army of God continues to exalt Rudolph as a brave Christian who is doing God’s work.



Leave those peaceful Christians alone!!!


 

randome

(34,845 posts)
59. I specifically meant the big-mouths you linked to. The ones calling for death.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 09:15 PM
Jun 2016

They don't walk the talk. Some Christians do, you're right, and we probably do have blinders on when it comes time to criticize one of 'our' religions.

But no matter how much religion blinds us and kills us and maims us, we still give great deference to people choosing their own philosophies. I'm not sure there's any way out of that. It's not like we're going to outlaw religion.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
29. Look, I'll be blunt: What is the foundational ur-narrative of all 3 western Monotheisms?
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:57 PM
Jun 2016

It's a guy being willing to murder his baby because a voice in his head tells him to.

That's the hero.

So, okay. Going from there. I do happen to believe that these belief systems or the cultural apparatus surrounding them proceed through a sort of organic maturation (and eventual gradual mellowing) process- Islam, being about 14 or 15 centuries old, happens to be at its "Spanish Inquisition" age. Unfortunately, especially because it happens to be butting up against a global human consciousness which is going through a whole series of very different and rapid changes far above and beyond anything that these ancient reality maps are capable of dealing with.

Add to that cultural factors, geopolitical turmoil, and an abiding sense in the Islamic world that the west's advancement since the middle ages is some form of humiliation.. and you have several recipies for problems.

But the real underlying issue, or one of them, is that these dogmatic and rigid belief systems and structural approaches to interpreting the world are just horribly outdated for the 3rd Millennium. And that certainly includes the ingrained sexism and homophobia.

JI7

(89,288 posts)
42. the timeline thing is bs also
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:04 PM
Jun 2016

So if some new religion just started we are to give them time to catch up and excuse them because they have not been around for some time as christianity or other religion ?

These aren't people living in isolated parts of the world cut off from modernity. Many of the most cruel terrorists were raised in the west and lived like many others. Their upbringing would be more closer to other kids brought up in the west regardless of religion than to most in Afghanistan and whatever other place their family came from.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
52. It's an observation, nothing more.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:39 PM
Jun 2016

If we're talking "what do we do", that's a thornier question, but ignoring the fact that religious fundamentalism is a driver is foolhardy IMHO.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
30. Islam is the world's fastest growing religion.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:58 PM
Jun 2016

It has some very uniform public professions of faith and required activities specific to Islam.

It is also designed as a state religion, and originates from a "unique source." No longer Yahweh and Jesus.

It is perhaps the final evolution of the old Judeo-Christian desert warrior nomad religions?

The great battle in the Arab World - other than Shia/Sunni - is secular/fundamental.

Judaism had growing pains.

Christianity had growing pains.

Islam will find its way.

nadine_mn

(3,702 posts)
38. Because people can't separate religion from the people
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:53 PM
Jun 2016

Idiots are quick to equate a religion with an entire race of people: Christian = white and Islam = brown skinned people. Doesn't matter if they are atheist, Christian, Jewish, agnostic, Sikh, Hindu - if you are brown you are of the Islamic faith.

These idiots cannot comprehend that a white person would believe in anything other than Christianity and will be very quick to find an ounce of color or "other-ness" to them to explain why they are white and non-Christian.

So people who have two or more brain cells that rub together have come to realize that when you criticize a "non-white" religion, it feeds this belief of idiots that the whole race is homophobic, misogynistic, radicalized, bigoted etc.


Way too many people (ie Trump supporters) cannot separate religion from skin color. If I, as a light-skinned person, say that "X" religion is misogynistic, knuckle draggers will be quick to think I am as racist as they are and that I am condemning an entire race, ethnicity or geographical region of people.

So unless I know I am in the company of people who can actually think, I am not going to say anything.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,180 posts)
51. Okay lets separate religion from the people
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:37 PM
Jun 2016

Imagine if this asshole did not have any religion to brace up his beliefs and give him courage, if there was no such thing as religion in the world. He may not even have carried it out for one thing. (Or he may have just found some other crutch to use) But him knowing that there were tens of thousands of of like-minded Muslims the world over that also believed that gays should be killed, gave him the extra strength to carry this out. His 911 call told the world that. That he was doing this for some greater cause. That Allah or God made him do it. It makes it easier if he can convince himself that he is doing Allah's work and has thousands of backers, instead of the cold truth that he was just a weak, unstable person that could not accept anyone of a different sexual orientation than himself to exist. If there was no such thing as religion, he would just be another disturbed lone gunman.

Religion and its indelible stamp on centuries of established doctrine gives it power. And sick individuals use that power to endow themselves with the right to behave inhumanly.

"So people who have two or more brain cells that rub together have come to realize that when you criticize a "non-white" religion, it feeds this belief of idiots that the whole race is homophobic, misogynistic, radicalized, bigoted etc. "

This statement is what is wrong with the tip-toeing left. So scared that any comment criticizing the influence of Islam on the behavior of radicalized terrorists would mean that you may open yourself up to criticism of saying the race that generally worships that particular religion is all "homophobic, misogynistic, radicalized, bigoted etc". Well, news flash, patriarchal organized religions, ALL promote these things. Liberals can be so supportive of those that speak truth to power, as long as that power is not a foreign religion.

MisterFred

(525 posts)
40. Because of Episcopalians, UUs, some Sufi groups, and others who aren't.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:58 PM
Jun 2016

I'd go with "the majority of" rather than "almost all". And I'd suggest that religious misogyny/homophobia is generally only slightly worse than the misogyny you typically find in the society in which the religion operates.

For example, an editorial from the Guardian was credibly claiming today that homophobia is slightly less common among American Muslims than American Christians. That's against the common assumption, and a good reminder that religious people are incredibly diverse.

*Note: I myself am an agnostic (atheist to most) that find religious people a little ridiculous for being so confident in their fantasies.

Response to MisterFred (Reply #40)

ileus

(15,396 posts)
46. Islam is the enemy of Christianity...Christians are GOP friendly.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:17 PM
Jun 2016

The GOP hates Islam....thus we have to tip toe our progressive souls around offending the enemy of our enemy.

We even have a problem admitting Islam had anything to do with this, and instead blame guns and LGBT hate alone.

We want to point out he was on a terrorist watch list but still able to buy the guns. But that the shooting wasn't Islamic related he just hated gay people.


FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
49. Many here are Hypocrites when it comes to Islam
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:31 PM
Jun 2016

If this were an attack by Christians or the KKK, they would be screaming about Christianity, but Islam is treated with kid gloves because...well, hypocrisy.

Not me. I blame all religions for teaching hate at their core. Islam is the worst of the current lot too.


Ex Lurker

(3,816 posts)
54. Islam is seen as a Third World relgion, and many progressives are reluctant to criticize
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:48 PM
Jun 2016

anything about the Third World or POC. Or if they can't avoid criticizing, they try to blame colonialism, or Christian homophobia, or some other former of deflection. You're seen a lot of it here the last two days. There have been some amazing feats of contortion to avoid laying any blame whatsoever at the feet of Islam.

MariaThinks

(2,495 posts)
55. because the only major religion that is consistently killing people, gay people included,
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 07:52 PM
Jun 2016

TODAY is islam. In fact, how many imams are touring the world talking about killing gay people? and other people who are not muslim?

Yes, we have crazy Christians, but they are far fewer and have less influence. The day that they start to bomb airports and slaughter the way the radical islamists are, will be the day that I ask for churches belonging to the radical groups to be watched closely.

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
56. haven't read any of the thread, but this immediately came to mind:
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 08:01 PM
Jun 2016

how about superstitious delusionalists who live in a 'reality' that does not comport with observable events? people who base their lives around phenomena like weeping jesus, or, say phlogisten? things have changed a bit over the last 2000 years, but BILLIONS of people persist in living a life of illusion

one could describe such people as insane

religiously driven logic:



''There are ways of telling whether she is a witch''

substitute muslim, perhaps?

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
60. Because it is not true.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 09:44 PM
Jun 2016

Homophobia is cultural and so is religion. We don't blame one cultural trait for its sibling trait. Why not blame homophobia and misogyny for religion?

Correlation is not causation.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
61. "none of us can close our eyes to the fact that we do face enemies who use their distorted version
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 09:49 PM
Jun 2016

of Islam to justify slaughtering innocent people."


She is correct, of course.

http://time.com/4367046/orlando-shooting-hillary-clinton-transcript/

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
62. The question is whether it's "distorted"
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 10:00 PM
Jun 2016

and it's obvious from the texts themselves to the pew polls of Muslism around the world that their explicitly bigoted texts contribute to very bigoted opinions by the vast majority of Muslims.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
63. I do not believe it is anything like a "vast majority", myself.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 10:14 PM
Jun 2016

But I do happen to think that we are far too gentle in our characterization of the mental states of ANY people who believe they have a magic invisible friend in the sky who cares how their neighbors are having sex.

Seems to me that should be called what it quite obviously is.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
67. I will always side with women, and gays, and trangenedered, and cartoonists who draw Muhammed,
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 05:42 AM
Jun 2016

and people of other religions who are threatened by Muslims.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
70. A-FUCKING-MEN!
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 06:30 AM
Jun 2016

Look at all the major religions, and you'll see assholes in funny hats, claiming celestially-gained authority over us, telling religious practitioners that God hates queers, or that women must be submissive to men.

Yes, Islam has a misogyny problem, and a homophobia problem, but apparently, if we question their Sincerely Held Religious Beliefs, we're now Islamophobes.

I know, I know, Not All Muslims... But a lot of Muslims. And the biggest state-sponsored flavors of the faith, especially Wahhabi Islam, are incredibly misogynistic and homophobic. See Saudi Arabia. Or Qatar. Also see the flavors of Shi'a Islam in places like Iran.

Any flavor of religion that denigrates the LGBT community, or cuts to the chase by executing gay people, along with flavors of religion that oppress women, say by throwing rape victims in jail, or prohibiting them from driving a car or being in public by themselves, or making them wear bags over their heads and bodies and having to see the world through a tiny slit, gets my Atheist Middle Finger of Disapproval.

If that makes me Islamophobic, so be it. FUCK ISLAM! With the exception of the parts that don't treat gay people and women like shit.

 

reign88

(64 posts)
80. Hey hey hey...
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 01:23 PM
Jun 2016

Iran doesn't have gays in their country, remember?

"In 2007, Ahmadinejad reportedly told a crowd at Columbia University, 'In Iran, we don’t have homosexuals like in your country. We don’t have that in our country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I do not know who has told you that we have it.'"

aikoaiko

(34,186 posts)
72. Not me. This is something we agree upon.
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 06:40 AM
Jun 2016

And why I don't take my kid to church.

Unless you count playing on his PlayStation while eating cinamon toast on Sunday morning going to church.
 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
73. This is one of those rare instances in which you and I seem to agree.
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 07:17 AM
Jun 2016

Thanks for the post, which I didn't see as "Muslim baiting."

Kurovski

(34,655 posts)
79. I absolutely agree with you.
Tue Jun 14, 2016, 01:15 PM
Jun 2016

Why not admit it, and move on to clean house? Be involved in spirituality, as they claim.

Quit fighting progress.

It's a touchy topic, but since it touches on OTHER peoples' lives, it is certainly ours to criticize.

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