Ali called Joe Frazier ugly, Uncle Tom, and a gorilla, and probably showed the least sportsmanship..

[MadDAsHell]

of any athlete over the last 50 years. A lot of the poor sportsmanship you see today is a direct result of people glorifying Ali's taunting, insulting, and bullying of others.

He was, ironically, to sports what Donald Trump is to politics.

Sure, we agree with the guy's political beliefs, but let's not deify someone who by many measures was an absolute bully (and I'm talking about outside the ring).

[jberryhill]

1. That was all part of the showmanship

Ask those people he taunted what they think of him.

Boxing promotion is theater.

[BeyondGeography]

11. Frazier wanted to kill him and never got over it

He wasn't seeing the business angle in Manila.

Ali, to his credit, apologized and was a much bigger person than Joe in a lot of ways, but his behavior in the run-up to Manila was unhinged.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. My gf is from Manila

She's ten years younger than me. When she saw the rubber gorilla thing she was aghast. But Ali sorely regretted it and apologized many times over for it.

[H2O Man]

76. Incorrect.

Joe held a grudge for a long time, it's true. But he also "got over it." (I'm friends with Marvis, and know the way the relationship between Joe and Ali healed.)

[BeyondGeography]

82. I respect and believe your comment

It's also true, I think you would agree, that Joe was deeply scarred by Ali's treatment of him and that he paid an enormous personal price for the brand of cruelty that was inflicted on him. And it's true that, without Ali, Joe Frazier would be about as remembered as Jimmy Ellis or Ron Lyle. It was a complicated relationship to say the least.

My main objection to the post to which I responded, and others like it in this thread, is the notion that Joe was in in the joke and accepted it as business as usual. We both know that's untrue.

[H2O Man]

85. Agree & disagree.

While Smokin' Joe's legend is enhanced by his trilogy with Ali, the boxing community recognized him in the late 1960s- early '70s as a great champion. (My buddy Rubin Carter beat Jimmy Ellis; it's not realistic to imagine him fighting Joe.)

What is being overlooked is the impact of boxing on Joe. Use the Carmen Basilio & Ray Robinson model: one smaller, tough guy coming forward, against a more skilled boxer-puncher. The smaller man takes blows to the forehead; the taller man to the back of the head (among other places).

Long-term impact: the taller man has damage to the "hind-brain," with balance, nerves, etc. The shorter man's damage may not be as easily identified by the public. But, for those of us who study boxing and brains (one of my cousins who assisted me was the head of neurology at a major university), the pre-frontal damage is recognizable: shorter temper; inability to identify others' "motives"; substance abuse; and entrenched grudges.

Similar to Joe with Muhammad, Carmen never forgave Ray. In fact, he was happy to hear Ray died a miserable death. Now, I was among 4 generations of my family who knew Carmen very, very well. It was better to re-direct conversations with him, than to hear the old tapes re-playing.

[BeyondGeography]

86. I remember Eddie Futch saying after Manila

My guy is a great fighter, but so is the other guy, and he's 6 feet 3, in so many words.

You are a treasure here for many reasons, H20 Man, not least, for me, your knowledge of and experience with boxing, I know you'll be writing an OP on Ali at some point and look forward to it.

[MadDAsHell]

15. So calling a black person a gorilla is OK if it's theater or "for show"?

[jberryhill]

16. Yes, Ali was a noted racist

Did someone pee in your wheaties?

[MadDAsHell]

20. Are you denying that he called another black man a gorilla?

You seem uncomfortable with admitting that fact.

It's not OK, and anyone who thinks it is is one sick puppy.

[MasonDreams]

64. Is Bill Maher a racist for calling Trump an oragatange?

99 percent of chimpanze DNA is the same as that of our species. These primates we are talkin about get to live in the woods naked, and we spend our time in traffic jams producing global warming. We breathe, drink, and eat the poisons that we make.

If you ask me, these primates aren't just smarter than Trump they're smarter than us.

[Act_of_Reparation]

113. "If you ask me, these primates aren't just smarter than Trump they're smarter than us."

Maybe primates aren't spending their time in traffic jams or warming the earth because they're too busy killing children.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. I hope you forgot the sarcasm tag.

But I will concede Ali was complex.

[jberryhill]

59. Do you honestly believe in this context it needs a sarcasm tag?

Did you know Mahatma Gandhi served up some of the best pit barbecue the world has ever seen?

[scscholar]

53. How could he have been a racist?

WTF! Seriously, WTF!

[Corporate666]

109. Uhh, how couldn't he have been?

Is there some magical star above some folks' head that prevents them being racist?

Look up the definition of the word. Anyone can be racist. Anyone.

[philosslayer]

34. Also called him an uncle Tom

Which was an attempt to turn the African American community against him. But again, it was all theater. Too bad Mr. Frazier wasn't in on the joke.

[Tsiyu]

103. He was angry because Frazier refused to use his chosen name

so he hit back. Personal insult>>>>>personal insult.

Obviously a lot of youngins never heard of Gorgeous George, or professional wrasslers. The former knew how to market fights (my dad still cracks up about his antics) while the latter talk smack all the time about one another. It's part of the game.

Frazier forgave.

Ali wasn't perfect, but he was an icon, and he had more integrity than most.

[RandySF]

51. All this after Frazier loaned Ali a substantial sum while he was banned from boxing.

[obamanut2012]

74. Boxing and MMA promotion is theater -- exactly

I'm a hardcore MMA fan, and the "game before the game" is part of the fun of the fight. especially when done right (Conor McGregor and Nate Diaz, Johanna Champion, etc. in MMA).

[Bluenorthwest]

89. It's dramatics. But actual theater does not rely on the injury of the artists nor does it celebrate

dehumanization as a form of promotion. Ali got his cues not from actual theater but from wrestlers such as Gorgeous George. It's theatrics, but it is not theater.

[Adrahil]

99. I agree, but....

It's an absolutely HORRIBLE example to young people to behave that way. I've never been a fan of the man because of that kind of mean-spirited churlishness.

Was he a great boxer? Absolutely. Maybe the "greatest."

But a great man? Maybe later in his life, but during his active career, he was glorifying bullying.

[Mike Nelson]

2. Also...

...while I did not realize it in my youth, I have a problem with "boxing" as a sport. I think he became a better person over the years.

[raging moderate]

54. Yes, Muhammed Ali showed that he could learn, change, and grow.

In his youth, he was somewhat of a braggart, a clown, and a pugnacious fool. However, as he grew older, he learned, changed, and grew. And eventually he transcended himself and stood tall against the worst evils of his time, and he probably saved many lives by his example and his steady opposition to these evils.

[Mike Nelson]

69. You put that very well...

...we all start foolishly and, hopefully, take the same path through life.

[brush]

3. Ali was a master of hyping his fights. We knew what that was all about back then

It was all about promoting the fight — sort of like "playing the dozens".

He and Smokin' Joe reconciled later and they were cool with each other.

Ali went to Frazier's funeral.

You're misreading that a bit.

[MadDAsHell]

5. I disagree, Frazier was bitter to the very end. And rightly so.

No one should be called an Uncle Tom, especially an African-American from a poor sharecroppers family. Or a freakin gorilla.

But if Ali thought it would make him more famous, he was willing to say anything and hurt anyone.

[brush]

8. And how do you know Frazier was bitter to the very end?

I've read numerous reports that that wasn't the case.

Like this one from George Foreman, who I'm sure knew both better than you.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/story/2011-11-15/foreman-on-ali-frazier/51227814/1

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I am glad you are perfect so we won't get to judge you by any bad moments.

[jberryhill]

13. "I pray every day for him"

Frazier in 2011

[BeyondGeography]

14. You're wrong...It's all here

And it was deeper than just Manila.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. That documentary is a bit one sided.

Ali wasn't a saint. But he did express remorse for his treatment of Joe Frazier.

[BeyondGeography]

25. They made each other greater as fighters

In Frazier's case, much greater. It couldn't be anything but messy and it was.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Unfortunately us geeezers are old enough to remember the politcs of the time.

From the time Ali joined the NOI and opposed the war in Vietnam until he won his epic battle with George Foreman and caused many Americans to give him a second look his fights were political and racial events, even when his opponents were black. Those that rooted against him aligned themselves with the white power structure, and those that rooted for him against it. Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, and Ernie Terrell got caught up in the whirlwind. Ali made amends with all of them.

At the end of the day it is silly to argue Muhammad Ali was a "bad guy". And it is moronic to compare him with an inveterate hater like Trump.

[MadDAsHell]

30. Uh, check your facts. Joe Frazier defended him and called for his reinstatement.

His reward from Ali was, well we all know what it was.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Uh, reading comprehension is not your forte.

"Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, and Ernie Terrell got caught up in the whirlwind."

It was a turbulent time...Anybody that was embraced by the white power structure was bound to raise the ire of a revolutionary black man. You should be happy today. Joe's nemesis is dead.

[BeyondGeography]

33. It was nastier than anything you could conjure up today

My reactionary father and grandfather hated Ali with a passion and Frazier, who they didn't know from a hole in the wall, was their hero for a day in 1971. That sad dynamic played out all over and didn't bring out the best in anyone.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Bill Clinton, Bryant Gumbel, and Billy Crystal are doing the eulogies...

Gumbel was in the middle of the whole Ali-Frazier struggle and suggested Frazier was a Tom, something he came to sorely regret.

[brush]

22. They reconciled later. Here'a a link with George Foreman talking about it.

He knew both of them better than you I would say.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/story/2011-11-15/foreman-on-ali-frazier/51227814/1

[Shoulders of Giants]

4. Boxing is a sport where you try to punch a guy over and over again in the face until he can't stand.

Lets not pretend its supposed to be some dignified sport.

[MadDAsHell]

6. You can still be a dignified human being in a non-dignified activity

He chose another path.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. He may not have been a good sportsman, but he was unquestionably a great one. N.T.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. ...

[beachbum bob]

9. boxing is about winning and getting inside your opponents head

I consider myself fortunate to witness the greatest boxer of all time as well as one the greatest americans who took on the government and won at the Supreme Court. A real test of courage and resilience...who gave up a fortune for his beliefs


frazier knew, forman knew...winning and fighting....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. "boxing is about winning and getting inside your opponents head."

That is how Ali dealt with his own fears... Fear is a primary emotion. It is what you do next that defines you.

[TheCowsCameHome]

18. Oh, just stop it.

You're looking like a idiot that took too many punches to the head..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Some folks will say anything in the name of iconoclasm.

[MadDAsHell]

26. You seem uncomfortable with the truth.

I can't help you with that.

[TheCowsCameHome]

29. I don't need your "help", actually.

A great man is dead. Give it a rest, OK?

[malaise]

19. You do what you want

and i'll continue paying tribute to the greatest - won't be bullied

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. The use of bully in this context is odd...

It reduces Joe Frazier to a victim. He was no victim.

[malaise]

32. Just laugh

[Stinky The Clown]

27. Only on DU could shit like this come up, at this time, as a serious attempt at discussion.

The man's corpse is not yet cold. Can you please give it a FUCKING REST?

[still_one]

83. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[chillfactor]

31. the man has died...

for pete's sake be respectful of him and his family. Posts like this are really disgusting.

[still_one]

84. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[edhopper]

35. Fuck this shit!

[BronxBoy]

39. Jesus...

I'll take the forthcoming hide with honor.

You are an absolute asshole who certainly has very little knowledge of boxing, black people or the tenor of those times so long yet so short ago.

I'll say upfront that if there is one chink in Ali's legacy, it's that he and Joe Frazier didn't have the opportunity o patch things up ala Steinbrenner and Yogi. But to call Ali an athlete that showed the least sportsmanship of any athlete in the last 50 years????? Go fuck yourself.

You are talking about a guy who upon winning the Olympic gold medal was refused service at a restaurant in his home town of Louisville Kentucky. You are talking about a man who followed the courage of his convictions instead of the almighty dollar. You are talking about a man who insisted that his fights be held in countries that were often shit on by the first world. You are talking about a man who got bullied, shit on and hated by a country that he represented with honor.

Least sportsmanship?? How about John McEnroe who was a spoiled brat and showed the worst sportsmanship of any athlete I've known Bully?????? I would probably take no exception if you applied that label to Mike Tyson, another great fighter. But Ali??? Just take a few minutes and pull your head out your sorry ass. Funny, how the majority of fighters, people who actually got in the ring with Ali, would say you are fucking full of shit even factoring in the Joe Frazier factor.

You actually compared Ali to Donald Trump?????? Illustrate to me where the YAM put everything in his life on the line because of his convictions......Show me where he was willing to walk away from everything his rich daddy gave him because he needed to take a principled stand against something...Don't worry...we'll all wait.

And since you're picking one incident out of a legend's career and making blanket statements about it....think about this....Philadelphia was known as an extremely racist city. Frank Rizzo was no friend to my kind. So if you are so worried about Joe Frazier, why aren't you making a stink about how the city of brotherly love makes more a big deal about a fictional fucking boxer named Rocky Balboa than a homegrown son who was a gladiator in some of the most intense sporting events the world has ever seen. So fuck Philly because their a racist piece of shit city who really doesn't appreciate Joe Frazier.

Go Fuck yourself asshole.......You know less than nothing about boxing and it's canvas upon which the American political scene was painted upon during some of the most turbulent times in our country.

Jesus Christ....I knew one fucking asshole would raise his shitty head on this day of mourning.

I'll take my hide with honor.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. ...

[MadDAsHell]

43. ;)

[Blecht]

45. Nothing left to say

Nice post.

[ornotna]

47. Ohhh

[scarletwoman]

50. Bravo!

[ismnotwasm]

55. +A million.

[AuntPatsy]

56. Perfectly stated rebuttal to Ops opinion....

[pintobean]

57. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: You alerted on a post which was already alerted

Mail Message
On Sat Jun 4, 2016, 10:23 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Jesus...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7881868

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

If this gets hidden, DU isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell.

JURY RESULTS

Someone else already alerted on this post before you alerted on it, and only the first alert was sent to a Jury. A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of the post on Sat Jun 4, 2016, 08:01 PM, and voted 2-5 to keep IT. Please note that even though your alert was not sent to a Jury, it has been forwarded to the Administrators who review all alerts.

Thank you.

Anybody have the jury results?

[MrsMatt]

72. 2-5 keep it

it's right in the message

[rockfordfile]

78. I agree

[Brother Buzz]

98. LOL, I see what you did there

Even if it was for naught.

[Starry Messenger]

62. .

[Are_grits_groceries]

63. Thank you!

And he knows zero about boxing promotion.

[countryjake]

65. The Greatest

[CrawlingChaos]

66. Great post - well said (n/t)

[ChickenGuru]

67. Well said.

Just like the scene in "Tweleve Angry Men", some people need to be told to go sit in the corner and shut your fucking mouth.

[BootinUp]

71. Thank you, I believe it needed to be said.

[Orrex]

75. Down goes MadDAsHell! Down goes MadDAsHell!

[H2O Man]

77. Thank you.

[Loki Liesmith]

81. "Fuck Philly???"

Old timers LOVE Frazier and hate Ali around here.

Young folks just have forgotten is all. Boxing is a shell of its former self as a sport.

[ornotna]

87. This old timer hasn't forgotten a thing.

Muhammad Ali was the greatest and will always be to me. My mother thought he was pretty special too, and she was born in 1924.

[Loki Liesmith]

97. Yes. I gather he had many fans

[ornotna]

100. Seems he had his haters as well.

[Loki Liesmith]

108. I'm not one or the other

Boxing means little to me. I just don't see the appeal in watching two men pummel each other half to death. But others do, and football isn't much better, really, and I do like that...

But in point of fact, here in Philadelphia, the home of Smokin' Joe Frazier, Ali has some legitimate haters here because of the abuse he poured on Joe. It's just a fact. There are a lot of older folks here who remember that and see our hometown champion as a victim of some very poor sportsmanship.

[tenderfoot]

88. Yes!

[Tsiyu]

90. ^THIS^

is a beautiful thing.

[mac56]

91. ---

[Spazito]

102. Well said!

[snooper2]

110. Awesome reply- troll got rolled

[Brickbat]

112. .

[Fly by night]

44. If you so enjoy dancing on graves, ...

... you might wait until Ali is in the ground.

PS: this merde stays up here at DU, while my last two threads (the first in four years) get locked? Yep, I made a wrong turn somewhere. I coulda sworn this is where DU used to be.

[trumad]

46. The look aty me thread of the year.

Weeeeeee!

[oswaldactedalone]

48. Listened to the second Ali Liston

fight on the radio at age 9 and was shocked at how quickly it ended after all the build up. Ali rubbed the white community the wrong way with his "I am the greatest" boast following the fight. I didn't like him for his arrogance and lack of sportsmanship.His conversion to the Muslim faith did not play well in those days either. I always pulled for Smokin' Joe to take him down, and was disappointed when Ali roped a doped Foreman.
His loss to Ken Norton was such a low profile fight that it was broadcast the next day on ABC's Wide World of Sports. News didn't travel then like it does today which is why my brother and I watched a replay of that fight 16 hours after it ended and had no idea who won while we watched it. We loudly celebrated Norton's victory.

RIP Muhammad, the media rehabilitated you but I never understood why.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Sour grapes because Ali handed all your favorite fighters their collective asses.

We loudly celebrated Norton's victory.

Oh, Kenny looks down from Heaven and says hi:

Even Ali’s opponents were positively influenced by him. Several years after his losses to Ali, Ken Norton suffered a serious automobile accident and had to be hospitalized, and doctors thought he might never walk again. One of the first persons to visit him was Ali. Norton remembered looking up,

…and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. And I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m going to get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali, and became his friend when the fighting was over.


http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Ali.htm

[H2O Man]

79. Inaccurate.

Example One: The first Norton fight was carried live on ABC, not the one-day delay that you claim.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. Yes... I can remember watching it as a kid with my dad and being crushed.

It was easily the saddest moment in my young life...

I believe pre-exile Ali doesn't struggle nearly as much with Norton.

Do you remember the SI article where Ali predicted he would beat Norton in 4 in their rematch, Frazier in 6 in their rematch, and beat Foreman in 13?

[Logical]

80. LOL, sounds like you are whining. nt

[RandySF]

52. What probably hurt most

was this happened a few years after Frazier loaned Ali a substantial amount of money while Ali was banned from boxing. Frazirt died broke.

[Logical]

58. Every death brings out some whiner who has to be insulting. Nt

[Lint Head]

61. Ali was not running for President. For a white person to use the G word referring to a black person

is verboten.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. He regretted it and apologized for it, several times.

[BootinUp]

70. No, no, no. Ali was a competitor and people respect him. Even those that were turned off initially

by his brashness.

Don't you try to put him in his place.

This thread is wrong headed.

[obamanut2012]

73. Pre-bout trash talk is part of the hype of combat ports

It's how the fighters sell the fights -- boxing and MMA fighters still do it, some more than others, some not at all. It is almost always just "the game before the game."

It is truly not a big deal, as anyone who follows these sports know.

[RandySF]

92. Frazier never forgave Ali.

It was that nasty and personal.

[Bradical79]

93. He did forgive him eventually

The year he died during an interview he said he forgave Ali and was over it.

[KG]

94. why you just call him Cassius clay while you're at it?

[Bucky]

111. wow... and I thought the OP was offensive

[Greybnk48]

96. Fuck off. Ali is a giant in the eyes of many,

myself included having come of age in the 60's. He truly was the greatest, in and out of the ring, and I was hoping not to see any vile shit like this. The LAST word I would, or ever will use for Ali is bully. You clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about.

[bluestateguy]

101. Disgusting

that you would even bring this up two days after he died

[kwassa]

104. This is a vile OP, comparing Ali to Trump. Please delete.

It is so wrong in so many ways, and so ignorant of Ali's career and importance. This is like comparing MLK to David Duke.

[Blue_Tires]

105. 104 responses... I'm impressed

you've done this before, haven't you?

[anamnua]

106. I stirred up some controversy early last month with a similar Trump/Ali comparison.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027795406
Mind you this was written before Hill's recent Trumpbusting speech.

[brettdale]

107. He also inspired

The entire world.

[NaturalHigh]

114. Most of that was thirty years ago or more...

and he did it to promote his fights. He grew into a very thoughtful, kind person.

Admiring someone's accomplishments (and yes, I'm an Ali fan) is hardly "deifying" him.

[Downtown Hound]

115. LOL. Trash talking in combat sports did not originate with Ali

It has been going on since the dawn of time and will continue to do so as long as human beings remain human.