General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCharles Pierce: Why Do We Keep Learning New Secrets About 9/11?
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/36868-focus-why-do-we-keep-learning-new-secrets-about-911'I, for one, didn't know that a Saudi diplomat had been implicated in the support network on which some of the hijackers depended while living in San Diego. (Why is Fahad al-Thumairy walking around free while shoeless losers who fall for FBI stings get shipped off to the nether regions of the federal penal system?) But Lehman wasn't finished yet.
In the interview Wednesday, Lehman said Kean and Hamilton's statement that only one Saudi government employee was "implicated" in supporting the hijackers in California and elsewhere was "a game of semantics" and that the commission had been aware of at least five Saudi government officials who were strongly suspected of involvement in the terrorists' support network. "They may not have been indicted, but they were certainly implicated," he said. "There was an awful lot of circumstantial evidence."
Allegedly, there was a considerable brawl within the commission about how the material concerning the Saudi involvement was being handled, and at the center of it was staff director Philip Zelikow, whose previous job was as an aide to Condoleezza Rice back in the days when she was proving to be the worst National Security Advisor ever. This always has stuck in my craw, and if the stonewall is falling down, then that's all to the good.
Zelikow fired a staffer, who had repeatedly protested over limitations on the Saudi investigation, after she obtained a copy of the 28 pages outside of official channels. Other staffers described an angry scene late one night, near the end of the investigation, when two investigators who focused on the Saudi allegations were forced to rush back to the commission's offices after midnight after learning to their astonishment that some of the most compelling evidence about a Saudi tie to 9/11 was being edited out of the report or was being pushed to tiny, barely readable footnotes and endnotes. The staff protests were mostly overruled. Why Do We Keep Learning New Secrets About 9/11?
merrily
(45,251 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)floriduck
(2,262 posts)in the DNC by-laws and sold the corporate media to progressive owners.
maxsolomon
(33,449 posts)to an otherwise unrelated topic.
never stop tearing down the likely nominee!
byronius
(7,407 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)...about Zelikow being the "steerer" of the commission, AND, especially, Lee Hamilton's involvement with it as well. He is the Repug's favorite Dem "whitewasher" when it comes to investigations Repugs want whitewashed...
zentrum
(9,866 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)One is to fool the public, at public expense, into thinking something objective, authoritative, unassailable and totes final has gone down.
Come to think of it, there is no other purpose.
hatrack
(59,599 posts)Interminable, endless delay.
merrily
(45,251 posts)as quickly as humanly possible, but consistent with the idea that they were thorough.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)... to hold even the first meeting.
One can imagine why. They were probably thinking, "Holy shit! How are we going to be able to explain away this?!"
Then again, perhaps Dubya felt it was important to allow everyone a chance to finish their shopping first.
Or maybe he was still worried about scaring those poor elementary school kids.
merrily
(45,251 posts)said something about figuring out people's motives, conscious or subconscious--by looking at the outcome or results.
Gee, an American flag as a shopping bag. Does anything say more clearly that we are for sale?
you are on a roll, merrily. Good day to you!
merrily
(45,251 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Ford_Prefect
(7,927 posts)You say Wahhabi, I say WTF?
It's all in the empire manipulation by the terminally rich Saudi Royal Family, their partners and enablers. We now ought to be asking who suggested and promoted behind the scenes the destruction of Libya, Syria, and now Iran?
merrily
(45,251 posts)Ford_Prefect
(7,927 posts)Wow. You ask the questions that any prosecuting attorney would and watch out, suddenly you're wearing a heavy canvas jacket with leather straps and the complimentary Aluminum fedora.
Forward, ever forward! Only cowards look back!
The new Light Brigade charges once again..........and again.........and again...
merrily
(45,251 posts)Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
<snip>
VI
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
How many of them can anyone name, off the top of his or her head?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Nice to see you, Jesus.
Ford_Prefect
(7,927 posts)could lead to such catastrophe.
I guess it is in how you sift the history...Oops, there's that pesky past once again!
Some folks think the cure is in never looking back because that dishonors our heroes and diminishes their glory and sacrifice. I cannot help but ask why they were sent, who decided they had to go, when was that decision made and what was done to enable it?
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Think how it did/could've played out
Saudi best friend George W is a war hero.
All his friends make billions off of the wars
Saudis make billions off of oil price spike
US gets to have troops everywhere thanks to terrorism
GOP gets to stay in power endlessly
And don't forget all the Dems with vast ties to weapons manufacturers and Saudi Arabia... Like a certain Hillary C... No that's too obvious - H Clinton.
Both parties got real paid as did their regional facilitators... Never mind all those dead Americans.
Jerry442
(1,265 posts)Well, there are the peoples of the U.S.,Iraq, and Afghanistan who paid for this travesty with lives and treasure, but like I said, no one significant.
lindysalsagal
(20,785 posts)I wonder if there is any truth at all in the world, even here.
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)and as long as they are alive. Soon as they die we will find out the truth--my theory.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)IthinkThereforeIAM
(3,078 posts)... their companies had all the security apps, consulting and hardware ready to sell after decades of watching the Palestinians.
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)unless you can cough up 10,000,000 for my charitable foundation.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)It's because the official story is a crock and we can't stand the lies.
FFS.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)There are obviously a ton of theories.
Let it happen on purpose (LIHOP) is the most mild version of government involvement, but I don't think that goes far enough to explain everything.
Certainly the CIA and FBI were in on it, up to their eyeballs.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)librechik
(30,678 posts)by certain federal officials. Saudi terrorists couldn't pull that off alone.
Then of course, there is all the RAMPANT destruction of evidence the FEDS admitted or we know they did whether they admit it or not. Only the Americans involved could have done that. The military, the FAA and the FBI were especially implicated.
Start reading David Lee Griffin's numerous 9/11 books if you are interested in the analysis of evidence. The one where he shows how many lies were told by the Commission is a good place to start.
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)and a definite must read with regard to 9-11.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,381 posts)Why people cling to the idea that Building 7 "fell down on its own" or that it was blown up intentionally completely astounds me
uhnope
(6,419 posts)extreme claims require extreme evidence
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)opening.
At first, the hearings seemed rather mundane and boring. But as a person listened and watched, it was amazing. The Commission was holding hearings to interview so many of the top dogs of the military and in the Government and most of what was being said by these important officials was the most absolute claptrap.
Imagine being the head of Strategic Air Command, and not being able to offer up the Commission anything pertinent relating to the tragic day's events, because "I have been transferred from my position with SAC to a different commission with Naval Intelligence, and when I left SAC, I inadvertently left my journal and organizer in my desk at SAC. So I don't have any idea of what the particulars of my day there were."
These kinds of statements were made by one official after another. I mean, I used to get nervous if I left my HS French homework at home on the day of an oral exam. Yet none of these people seemed able to make any intelligent comments about the events of the day. Yet they didn't seem nervous about this inability. And even more amazingly, they were totally unconcerned about their lack of being able to intelligently testify.
Wouldn't you think the Nine Eleven Commission would have someone on their panel to respond, "Well, now surely Mr Former SAC commander,you could have called up SAC headquarter and asked that one of their people courier over your left behind journal?" But no, no matter how outrageous the non-statements were, no one on the Commission seemed that interested. And the person offering up non-statements had no nervousness at all. People not at all remembering what they were doing. People making the most nonsensical statements. Above and beyond belief.
When one military official was queried as to why the planes summoned by Cheney to fly to protect the Pentagon were not made available by Andrews AFB, an Air Force base some eleven miles from the WH, but instead came from Langley AFB some 130 miles away, the Commission was told, "Well, the closer AFB can only be contacted by Secret Service and they didn't have the phone number at hand to call them!" I mean, at the time, my eighty year old mother had every phone number she could ever need in her Rolodex, but the President, Vice President and Secret Service didn't have the phone number for Andrews AFB handy?
When a person considers that between 1950 and 2001 the nation had spent some thirty one TRILLION dollars to provide for our defense and yet the nation's top officials didn't have phone numbers handy? And none at the Commission seemed perplexed our concerned, nor did anyone say, "Let's at least make sure that from now on the President, Vice President and the Secret Service have up to date Rolodexes..."
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)what you're talking me.
As I delved into researching the divisive debates between "Truthers" and Deniers, I was
often shocked at the extent to which Deniers would go, with their tortured illogic to
pretend that their was "nothing to see here", that Truthers were just paranoid alarmists
making up shit. One needs look no further than the DU Dungeon phenomenon to see
this.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)that covers virtually every significant documented event leading up to and following the 9/11 attacks, including the eyeballs:
http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project
uhnope
(6,419 posts)thx
leveymg
(36,418 posts)If you're interested enough, I can send you links to a lot more.
by leveymg
Daily Kos, FRI JUN 14, 2013
NSA Surveillance of 9/11 Plot Was Known to FBI
Outgoing FBI Director Robert Mueller made a startling claim yesterday to a Congressional Committee overseeing the NSA inquiry. The Director described how Khalid al-Midhar, one of the 9-11 hijackers, had called a Yemeni safe house from a phone in San Diego shortly before the attack. Mueller claims had today's surveillance system been in place, NSA surveillance of that call would have led to sharing of intelligence with the FBI and "derailed" the 9/11 attack. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/fbi-mueller-spy-tactics-9-11-boston
That isn't the complete truth, however. Court records from the trial of convicted co-conspiractor Zakaria Moussaoui shows the FBI was aware of NSA intercepts of Midhar and and his partner Nawaf al-Hazmi in the months leading up to 9/11, who went on to hijack Flt. 77 that slammed into the Pentagon. The pair had also met with the other principal 9/11 hijackers at various locations inside the US. Based in part on NSA wiretaps that were later withheld and suppressed, FBI agents had, in fact, located the pair inside the US in mid-2001, but the investigating agents were ordered to close the file after CIA refused to cooperate and pressured the Bureau to shut down several lines of field investigation that were focusing on the plotters.
Mueller's claims omit those key facts. The Director instead stated that Khalid al-Mihdhar was being monitored by intelligence agencies, but they lost track of him, Mueller said. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/0613/Secret-NSA-program-could-have-derailed-9-11-attacks-FBI-director-says-video
FBI Director Mueller doesn't explain why. He instead told Congress that intelligence officials did not know that it was Midhar who called a Yemen safehouse to discuss progress of the plot. The NSA monitoring program could have changed that, Mueller argued, potentially leading to the "derailing" of the plot. In fact, the FBI field investigators had already tried to get CIA to reveal the NSA surveillance records they knew already existed, but that line of investigation was shut down by headquarters. Mueller's statement is completely misleading in view of the actual events and decisions taken by ranking intelligence officials to sidetrack ongoing FBI investigations into the al-Qaeda operation during 2001:
If we had the telephone number from Yemen, we would have matched it up to that telephone number in San Diego, got further legal process, identified al-Mihdhar, he said. The 9/11 Commission itself indicated that investigations or interrogations of al-Mihdhar once he was identified could have yielded evidence of connections to other participants in the 9/11 plot.
CONTINUED w/links...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/14/1216187/-Director-Mueller-9-11-Hijackers-were-in-Fact-Under-NSA-Surveillance
uhnope
(6,419 posts)Some of the 9/11 hijackers had been under government surveillance at some point prior to the attack.
Is that a fair summary?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Q:
Jun 14 · 12:25:48 PM
hard to sort through all this
was this all bureaucratic screw-up or was there some nefarious ulterior motive.?
Recommended 1 time
A:
Jun 14 · 01:28:39 PM
Richard Clarke take on this:
Former Counterterrorism Czar Accuses Tenet, Other CIA Officials of Cover-Up
11 August 2011
"I know how all this stuff works I've been working it for 30 years," Clarke said. "You can't snowball me on this stuff. If they announce on September 4 in the Principals meeting that these guys are in the United States and they told the FBI a few weeks ago I'm going to say 'wait, time out. How long have you known this? Why haven't you reported it at the daily threat meetings? Why isn't it in the daily threat matrix?' We would have begun an investigation that day into CIA malfeasance and misfeasance that's why we're not informed."
http://www.truth-out.org/...
My take: There were the compartmentalized Agency programs that go back to the CIA's use of al-Qaeda during the Afghanistan War against the Soviets that blew back in the '93 WTC bombing, but never really ended. UBL was a key Saudi liaison in these operations. Instead of ending, these morphed into covert joint operations in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Dagestan, and elsewhere. The Agency's relationship with al-Qaeda was complicated by Khobar Towers and the falling out between UBL and Station Chief Cofer Black in Khartoum. UBL was moved by Prince Turki from Sudan to Afghanistan to coordinate with the Taliban. Black was promoted and moved to HQ, where he was given the plum job of Chief of CIA-CounterTerrorism Center. The East Africa embassies bombings seemed to cleanly sever the relationship, but it didn't work out quite so cleanly.
At the same time that CIA-CTC was formally in charge of the Agency's operations against UBL, the Agency was also involved in running ongoing covert paramilitary operations in coordination with Saudi Intelligence against the Russians and its proxies in the Transcausus region and Central Asia. The Saudis continued to support Jihadis, which continued to be tied in with UBL. So, CIA had to continue protecting the Saudis (and their AQ auxillary) from interference by the FBI and its own purportedly anti-UBL units. The inner-tension in this schizoid mix of missions made blowback inevitable.
Sinister? History will be the judge. Bureaucratic mix-up seems far, far too mild to capture it. CYA and denial were the only conceivable official response to 9/11.
Recommended 6 times
If you want to know the full backstory on the CIA-UBL relationship, and what came of it, you can read this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/4/810764/-
uhnope
(6,419 posts)I don't doubt that some of the 9/11 hijackers had been under surveillance.
But as we know too well, a lot of people are under surveillance. So that doesn't, at all, prove that the CIA/FBI were in on it up to their eyeballs, the original statement.
I have no doubt, also, a historical amount of ass-covering and Saudi-friend protecting (from just money connections, etc, not from planning) went on after 9/11, because, as they say, success has many parents but failure is an orphan. But that was afterward.
If you can summarize for me what you mean by "and all that implies" and some hard, glaring evidence, I would appreciate it.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)there's so much material out there.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)thx
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)Factual Evidence Contradicts the 9/11 Story
The official account of the events of September 11, 2001, has been used:
to justify the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which have resulted in the deaths of over a million people; [1]
to authorize torture, military tribunals, and extraordinary rendition; and
to suspend freedoms guaranteed by the American Constitution such as habeas corpus in the USA, and similar freedoms in Canada, the UK, and other countries.
The official claims regarding 9/11 are contradicted by facts that have been validated by a scientific consensus process, and which include the following points of best evidence.
The 46 Consensus Points are divided into the ten categories below, which in turn link to the individual 46 points:
A. General Consensus Points
B. Consensus Points about the Twin Towers
C. Consensus Points about the Collapse of World Trade Center 7
D. Consensus Points about the Pentagon
E. Consensus Points about the 9/11 Flights
F. Consensus Points about US Military Exercises On and Before 9/11
G. Consensus Points about the Political and Military Commands on 9/11
H. Consensus Points about Hijackers on 9/11
I. Consensus Points about the Phone Calls on 9/11
V. Consensus Points about Official Video Exhibits Regarding 9/11
A. General Consensus Points
Point G-1: A Claim Regarding Osama bin Laden
Point G-2: A Claim that there was No Insider Trading in Put Options before September 11, 2001
B. Consensus Points about the Twin Towers
Point TT-1: A Claim about the Destruction of the Twin Towers: Impact, Jet Fuel, and Fire Only
Point TT-2: A Claim about the Destruction of the Twin Towers: Impact, Fire, and Gravity Only
Point TT-3: A Claim Excluding Explosions in the Twin Towers
Point TT-4: A Second Claim Excluding Explosives in the Twin Towers
Point TT-5: The Claim that the World Trade Center Dust Contained No Thermitic Materials
Point TT-6: The Claim that There Was No Molten Steel or Iron in the World Trade Center Buildings
Point TT-7: Why Did the Twin Towers Collapse? The Seismic Evidence
Point TT-8: Why Did the Twin Towers Collapse? The Physical and Testimonial Evidence
C. Consensus Points about the Collapse of World Trade Center 7
Point WTC7-1: The Claim that WTC 7 Collapsed from Fire Alone
Point WTC7-2: The Claim in NISTs Draft Report that WTC 7 Did Not Come Down at Free Fall Acceleration
Point WTC7-3: The Claim in NISTs Final Report that WTC 7 Came Down in Free Fall Without Explosives
Point WTC7-4: Did the Official Simulation of the Fall of WTC7 Match the Observed Collapse?
Point WTC7-5: World Trade Center Building 7: NISTs Analysis of the Collapse Initiation Is Not Valid
Point WTC7-6: The Fraudulent NIST Claim That There Was No Steel Recovered from Building WTC7 for Analysis
Point WTC7-7: Foreknowledge of the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7
D. Consensus Points about the Pentagon
Point Pent-1: Why the Attack on the Pentagon Was Not Prevented: The First Official Account
Point Pent-2: Why the Attack on the Pentagon Was Not Prevented: The Second Official Account
Point Pent-3: The Claim Regarding Hani Hanjour as Flight 77 Pilot
Point Pent-4: Was There Foreknowledge by Officials that the Pentagon would be Attacked? New, Sept. 2015
E. Consensus Points about the 9/11 Flights
Point Flt-1: A Claim Regarding Hijacked Passenger Jets
Point Flt-2: The Claim that Flight 93 Crashed Near Shanksville, Pennsylvania
Point Flt-3: Were Hijackers Responsible for Changes to September 11 Flight Transponders?
Point Flt-4: Unexplained Black Box Anomalies for the Four 9/11 Planes
F. Consensus Points about US Military Exercises On and Before 9/11
Point ME-1: Did Military Exercises Show that the Military was Prepared for Domestic (as Well as Foreign) Hijackings?
Point ME-2: The Claim that the Military Exercises Did Not Delay the Response to the 9/11 Attacks
G. Consensus Points about the Political and Military Commands on 9/11
Point MC-Intro: Overview of Contradicted Claims about Key Military and Political Leaders
Point MC-1: Why Was President Bush Not Hustled Away from the Florida School?
Point MC-2: The White House Claim as to How Long President Bush Remained in the Florida Classroom
Point MC-3: The Claim about the Time of Dick Cheneys Entry into the White House Bunker
Point MC-4: When Did Cheney Authorize the Shoot-down of Civilian Planes?
Point MC-5: Secretary of Defense Rumsfelds Behavior between 9:00 and 10:00 AM
Point MC-6: T he Activities of General Richard Myers during the 9/11 Attacks
Point MC-7: The Time of General Sheltons Return to his Command
Point MC-8: The Activities of Brigadier General Montague Winfield between 8:30 and 10:30 AM
Point MC-9: The Activities of General Ralph Eberhart during the 9/11 Attacks
Point MC-10: The Activities of NYC Mayor Giuliani on September 11, 2001
H. Consensus Points about Hijackers on 9/11
Point H-1: Mohamed Attas Mysterious Trip to Portland
Point H-2: The Claim that Able Danger Failed to Identify Mohamed Attas Probable Presence in the US in January 2000 New, Sept. 2015
I. Consensus Points about the Phone Calls on 9/11
Point PC-1: The Alleged Calls of Todd Beamer, Flight UA 93
Point PC-1A: The Todd Beamer Call from UA Flight 93: A Serious Problem in the Timeline
Point PC-2: The Reported Phone Calls from Barbara Olson
Point PC-3: Cell Phone Calls from the Planes: The First Official Account
Point PC-4: Cell Phone Calls from the Planes: The Second Official Account
V. Consensus Points about Official Video Exhibits Regarding 9/11
Point Video-1: The Alleged Security Videos of Mohamed Atta during a Mysterious Trip to Portland, Maine, September 10-11, 2001
Point Video-2: Was the Airport Video of the Alleged AA 77 Hijackers Authentic? Official 9/11 Videotaped Evidence
uhnope
(6,419 posts)I just asked for a summary of the more glaring, obvious evidence that the CIA & FBI were in on it up to their eyeballs. A few damning facts that show this. Could you help me out?
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)and had agents in contact with the hijackers.
The CIA helped write the 9/11 commission report, which was part of the cover-up.
The FBI was in charge of all the fishy domestic evidence of the attacks, and were in position to cover-up any damaging connections of the hijackers to the FBI and CIA.
If you want more than that, you will have to do your own research.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)this:
Now I would just need a summary of the glaring, obvious evidence of that.
Can you help me out?
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)but on the FBI side, I will mention Collen Rowley, Sibel Edmonds and Robert Wright. You can find their stories easily.
https://www.google.com/search?q=colleen+rowley+fbi+9%2F11
https://www.google.com/search?q=sibel+edmonds+fbi+9%2F11
https://www.google.com/search?q=robert+wright+FBI+9%2F11
There's also the story of how two hijackers were living with an FBI informant.
On the CIA side, they were spying on al Qaeda for years. And it's the freaking CIA.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)I have politely & simply asked for just a bit of hard proof for your claims. After many chances, you have been unable to do so.
I haven't nitpicked at all. You haven't even given me any evidence to nitpick. I've asked basic questions asking for basic facts. Now instead you're giving me Googling tasks.
You really had my full attention, and I just wanted to be told something straight and verifiable.
Unfortunately, you have lived down to most people's negative view of conspiracy theory, that it's unprovable circular-reasoning based on a vague arrangement of semi-suspicious factoids in order to flimsily support a foregone conclusion.
That's the reason so many people dismiss CTs.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)Are you discounting the stories of Wright, Edmonds and Rowley?
I said I suspected you would nitpick, and lo and behold, you aren't satisfied with anything I provided.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)you don't seem to know these things.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)what exactly would convince you?
librechik
(30,678 posts)or follow any of the suggestions for reading?
Some of the people here have been closely studying this topic for 15 years or so. Can you claim the same?
And yet you curtly demand that we summarize all the evidence in a couple of paragraphs and convince you. and that's just the thing. We don't get to subpoena people. We don't get to read classified documents. We aren't in any position to answer your questions.
I would tell you to go ask somebody who knows the truth. Like Condi Rice. But you obviously already have your mind made up and have decided we are nuts. Please do us all a favor and discuss this issue elsewhere.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)Think about all the FOX addicts that thought everything Wayne Simmons said was true all those years. See http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/16/fox-news-analyst-arrested-for-lying-about-working-as-a-cia-agent
That's the prob with just thinking that because some person was once in a position somewhere, that person is telling the truth, without any corresponding evidence.
All the links to "proof" were like that... no proof.
This is funny what you wrote:
I would tell you to go ask somebody who knows the truth.
It seems that you are admitting that you, and the others on this thread who couldn't offer any proof, that you all don't know what's true, but you believe the conspiracy anyway. That sounds more like a religion than a solid belief system.
I never said anybody was nuts. I respectfully asked for one single example of the conspiracy and the corresponding proof. No one on this thread could give me anything solid. So how are you different that all the RWers who believe Wayne Simmons all those years with his wild claims about Obama & Democrats.
elljay
(1,178 posts)to which I subscribe. It is that our government did not LIHOP, but truly was incompetent, in part because of our siloed intelligence services, in part because our leaders intentionally refused to credit any information they received from the previous Democratic administration, in part because our government and intelligence services are filled with many people who really have no clue about other cultures/religions/countries etc. and just didn't have the vision to figure out what was about to happen. I truly don't think Bush/Cheney et al were competent enough to know that 9/11 was coming and to keep such a secret, but that Cheney was savvy enough to know how to use the attack after it did happen. The active governmental interference came AFTER the attacks, when the establishment went into high gear to protect their butts, their budgets, their friends. The coverup was and remains criminal and our government seems very content to ignore it.
Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)I would add to that the PNAC plans lend a lot of truthiness to the theory. The plans already existed, and they pounced on the attacks like a dog on a bone. Maybe not quite LIHOP, but awfully close. It's like I don't carry the theory that there is a huge cabal of rich folks planning and plotting. I think that they all think along the same lines and act on the circumstances in a similar way.
elljay
(1,178 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)IMO, it lets Bush and Cheney off the hook to easily, and there are also too many oddities about the attacks for it to just be that.
Though I should add it's possible that 9/11 was still an inside job and Bush/Cheney were too incompetent to be aware of what the covert ops people were doing.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The CIA, with the aid of alien technology commissioned the development of several EMR cannons that were strategically deployed by the Illuminati that remotely reprogrammed the flight directors on each of the planes and disabled manual override. The rest is history.
That's the short version. Lyndon LaRouche has all the details.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)unfortunately
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)believe the establishment's story, whatever it is. I usually don't believe anything the establishment tries to feed me. But that's how we are different. I think skepticism is healthy. I know that the establishment will lie to us every chance they get. In this case they didn't even try to present a rational story.
Why try to imply that if we don't know the real story, we need to accept the bullshit they try to feed us?
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Botany
(70,635 posts).... the living expenses for 3 of the hijackers in S. California.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)And this is what I found
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/25/alqaida.saudiarabia
Botany
(70,635 posts)The Mysterious Saudi Family That Vanished Two Weeks Before 9/11
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)And the complicity of the FBI in covering it all up.
You really have to ask why Americans should be supporting the FBI and CIA with taxes when they betray Americans so frequently.
Botany
(70,635 posts)In the aftermath of Sept. 11, President Bush ordered his then top anti-terrorism adviser to look for a link between Iraq and the attacks, despite being told there didn't seem to be one.
The charge comes from the adviser, Richard Clarke, in an exclusive interview on 60 Minutes.
The administration maintains that it cannot find any evidence that the conversation about an Iraq-9/11 tie-in ever took place.
Clarke also tells CBS News Correspondent Lesley Stahl that White House officials were tepid in their response when he urged them months before Sept. 11 to meet to discuss what he saw as a severe threat from al Qaeda.
******
People should be in jail and or on trial for war crimes and or on death row for the shit they pulled before
and after 9/11. w and Cheney's Iraqi war produced ISIS for God's sake. How the hell even w/the massive
cheating did w bush get re-elected?
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)The same tool Hillary is hoping to use.
maxsolomon
(33,449 posts)I think she'll use surprise, just like the Spanish Inquisition.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)What their plan is:
The slogan is Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid, said Paul Begala, who is an adviser to the pro-Clinton super PAC Priorities USA.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/be-afraid?utm_term=.ru25wwYQQ#.siYNGG6DD
Fear is literally all they got.
maxsolomon
(33,449 posts)"be very afraid of Trump" is more accurate. and has little to do with 9/11, regardless.
nikto
(3,284 posts)I can't claim to know exactly who was behind 9-11, but I know who benefitted, and
that the Officlal Story is BS.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)a Houston banker who employed G.H.W. Bush right after he was fired as CIA Director by Jimmy Carter.
Botany
(70,635 posts).... family, Marvin Bush's (w, Jeb, & Neil's brother) former company had the security contract for the
WTC and Boston's Logan airport, and Cheney was helping to run war games that simulated an attack
on the US using hijacked planes. Lots of damn coincidences before during and after 9/11 if I say so
myself.
People should be in jail and or on death row for what they did to America and the world. w & Cheney
used 9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq where millions of people have died or been wounded and in
the whirlwind after their war ISIS was produced.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Just falling down on its own footprint for no apparent reason, as no plane hit that structure.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Are you a physicist or engineer? If not, you don't have the credentials required to make a simple observation. If you are a physicist or engineer, then you're probably just a wacky "truther."
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)it truly boggles the mind. No wonder some have so much difficult moving off of denial.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)thread the whole official pile of shit comes completely unraveled. They knew it too, which is why they chose not to include any reference to it in the 9/11 report.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Just sayin'
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Texas and across the oil patch during the 1980s that extended into the BCCI takeover of First American.
Here's something I posted in a thread in 2008 on this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3655388
Edited on Tue Jul-22-08 09:00 AM by leveymg
There's a wealth of detail here that's worth reconnecting with what we've learned since. For instance, it wasn't revealed until recent years that then CIA Director George H.W. Bush made a political deal in mid-1976 with the head of Saudi external intelligence, Prince Turki al-Faisal, to allow the Saudis to finance and run the sort of covert operations that the Democratic Congress banned after the Church Committee hearings. That deal with code-named, Safari Club. BCCI was the funding vehicle for that illegal operation. See, http://journals.democraticunderground.com/leveymg/280
The result was a series of massive financial rip-offs, development of a Saudi paramilitary capability that became al-Qaeda, and the AQ Khan nuclear network, all of which the Bush wing of the CIA quietly facilitated. The Safari Club was also the start of Saudi penetration of the US political and banking systems, and huge support of the GOP.
What's useful is to look at the details of old news reports, since the corporate media used to actually report a lot of useful details. For instance, after he was fired as CIA Director by President Carter in early 1977, Bush was appointed Director of Houston-based First International Bankshares, owned in part by Joe Allbriton, with foreign offices in London and Luxembourg. BCCI had its major offices in the same locations. After Bush became VP, Allbriton sold out his shares in First Interbank to his crony, Jim Baker III, who owned Republic Bank. The merger went bankrupt a few years later, which became the largest financial bail-out in US history. That set the model for the S&L rip-off, which was also centered in Southwest bank chains in whch BCCI and the Bush clan had a vested interest. Allbriton went on to buy DC-based Riggs Bank, that along with UBS and other BCCI-linked banks, dispersed much of the funds held in diplomatic accounts by the Saudi Embassy in the name of the wife of Prince Bandar (an old friend of the Bush family) to support al-Qaeda cell members in the U.S. who attacked the US on 9/11. It's a small world, after all.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)I approve of this writer & article & source because it is level-headed and smart, not whacked out irresponsible CT with a hidden agenda.
Your link to "Reader Supported News" is to a page with tons of BS all over it--links to ConsortiumNews, Telesur and other lying propaganda. It discredits reasonable, professional articles like this one.
HOPNOSH
(37 posts)Really? You lack cred.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)lol
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Fine people, now that Phil Gramm's a member of the team. A great writer and disinformationist, IMFO.
Orrex
(63,260 posts)That'll make for some terrific page-turning.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)That fact is well-known for more than a decade by anyone who has been following this. If Lehman is making that claim, he must have napping during all those hearings.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,178 posts)Those that believe the word "conspiracy" is a made up word but if it existed, the real conspiracy is that such a non-word was ever allowed into the dictionary. And so if you ever even put out, not a set belief, but even just a theory of what may have happened counter to the authorities official explanation, you are to be ridiculed and dismissed.
These poor folks need to almost be Clockwork Oranged with their eyes forced open to look at even official documents that tell them things their dear leaders have tried to hide.
malaise
(269,254 posts)Truth will out
NoMoreRepugs
(9,500 posts)worldwide consumption of oil is approximately 90million barrels per day
create a situation that can add a significant 'risk cost' to the price of a barrel and you are talking about trillions of dollars over time
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)that has been given the never-ending investigations of both the Clintons--- when it came to the 9/11 investigation? We taxpayers are footing the bill for both. Surely any rational citizen who has been paying attention can be a "Clinton hater" and still admit where the long and serious "investigations" should be focused in the national interest.
Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)I am thinking of the First and Second Oil embargos, in particular the first.
I always thought it odd that there was no push-back from the U.S.A. then I learned that some of our U.S. billionaire's wealth was from M.E. oil. and that U.S. investment in the M.E. oil may be why this has been hidden as well.
libodem
(19,288 posts)And coming into the light. I've had inklings of this since reading " House of Bush, House of Saud". Prince Bandar was right in the center of this conspiracy.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)matt819
(10,749 posts)It's pretty simple.
Bush's investigative group whitewashed everything.
And, sadly, in one of his failures, Obama wanted to look forward, not back, and so did not dig any deeper, at least on anything for public consumption.
lindysalsagal
(20,785 posts)Because people will just ignore the truth if they find it uncomfortable.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Has Obama announced that he's no longer a Christian? Or was that all about LGBT bashing and getting elected?
That faith offers zero leeway for dishonesty, coverups, spin, partial truth or false testimony. No leeway at all. 'Your yes should mean yes and your no should mean no, anything more comes from evil'.
So which is it?
lark
(23,182 posts)to cover up the relevant information and to somehow pin 9/11 on Sadaam. It was a trifecta, Saudi royals could continue to burnish their Wahaabi credentials, Bush got to be a war president, got payback for Iraq supposedly trying to harm his dad, and made lots of $$ for Carlyle group by buying weapons systems that weren't needed or wanted by the pentagon. Cheney got rich through KBR.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)princes since the 1970s?
What kinds of agreements if any have been made to help the Saudis maintain the value of their investments around the world, their wealth considering the reality of their ever dwindling natural resource, oil?
I realize that they still claim to have lots of oil. But I also recall from my time working in the oil sector in a small job during the early 1970s, that they were very concerned about what would happen to them when their oil, an exhaustible resource, ran out.
I wonder what assurances or agreements were entered into with the Saudis in order to get them to sell their oil at affordable prices.
I've always wondered what the story is on this. This was a major issue in the news at a certain time in history. Something happened, some agreement or something that caused it to disappear. If anyone knows, please say something.
It was quite a reasonable concern on the part of the Saudi government. This was back in the day of Sheik Yamani and the early days of OPEC activism. Does anyone else remember this?
Is it a figment of my imagination?
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)With Henry at the helm, we would've gotten to the truth!
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)and immediately decide he needed to urgently...
wash his hands.
AntiBank
(1,339 posts)Kissinger is a friend, and I relied on his counsel when I served as secretary of state. He checked in with me regularly, sharing astute observations about foreign leaders and sending me written reports on his travels. Though we have often seen the world and some of our challenges quite differently, and advocated different responses now and in the past, what comes through clearly in this new book is a conviction that we, and President Obama, share: a belief in the indispensability of continued American leadership in service of a just and liberal order.
There really is no viable alternative. No other nation can bring together the necessary coalitions and provide the necessary capabilities to meet todays complex global threats. But this leadership is not a birthright; it is a responsibility that must be assumed with determination and humility by each generation.
Fortunately, the United States is uniquely positioned to lead in the 21st century. It is not just because of the enduring strength of our military or the resilience of our economy, although both are absolutely essential. It goes deeper than that. The things that make us who we are as a nation our diverse and open society, our devotion to human rights and democratic values give us a singular advantage in building a future in which the forces of freedom and cooperation prevail over those of division, dictatorship and destruction.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Do war crimes have any kind of statute of limitations?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)But, it will shock the uninitiated.
Rex
(65,616 posts)However it seems Congress lacks the backbone to do the right thing.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)for Nazi war crimes.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Glad to hear that.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)Henry Kissinger
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Understand in great depth what happens between immigrants from Middle Eastern nations and our corrupted Alphabet Agencies will be in for a huge eye opening should they read the award winning novel "Harbor."
haikugal
(6,476 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Apparently in addition to "Harbor" she has this other book out too. Gotta see if my library has this one as well.
Turning Secret Intelligence to Fiction
Lorraine Adams spent years consulting a U.S. military intelligence specialist for her new novel, 'The Room and the Chair'
By ALEXANDRA ALTER
Updated Feb. 3, 2010 12:01 a.m. ET
Lorraine Adams, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter turned novelist, quit journalism and began writing fiction so that she could tell more nuanced stories. "I was seeing more grey than I was seeing the clear black and white of wrongdoing, and my job was to find wrongdoing," she says.
An investigative journalist at the Washington Post for 11 years, Ms. Adams still sees herself as a reporter. But now she funnels the information she gathers into her novels, which hinge on complex issues such as terrorism, secret military programs and the media's failure to expose government wrongdoing.
7962
(11,841 posts)On MANY different sites, including this one
Obviously not specific Saudis, but nonetheless
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Skittles
(153,261 posts)then the powers that be were able to focus on BENGHAZI
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Yet we are told that is what took down those buildings, over and over and over.
Whatever and whoever did whatever is totally irrelevant also in the reality of such facts
maxsolomon
(33,449 posts)The impact destroyed a portion of the facade's steel structure, and even it's concrete core IIRC, and the fire weakened the remaining steel portions to the point that the weight above could no longer be supported.
I went to a step-by-step presentation by the Structural Engineer of the WTC shortly after 9/11. Skillings Ward Magnusson, who worked with Yamasaki originally. the engineer walked us through the technicalities of the structural failure. that much jet fuel, abetted by the contents of the building, were sufficient to melt the EXTERIOR structure of the building.
Al Qaeda specifically chose that building because of its unusual structural system. That's why they hit below the top. They knew how to trigger a collapse.
nolabels
(13,133 posts)(snip)
Steel Ignores Jet Fuel
by Edward Mitchell
I am not a scientist, nor a physicist, nor structural engineer. I am a Boilermaker, Shipbuilder, and Blacksmith Forger. Union. Now a contractor on military facilities. I build steel storage tanks for jet fuel. A few years ago, a typhoon blew through, and I got to watch a Mobil AST, with 1,000,000 gallons of diesel in it, get hit with lightning. The grounding failed, and the million gallons blew up.
Well, for a diesel fire that is. It didnt blow up. It simply caught fire, burned itself out after 4 days, blackened the steel. Catch that? One million gallons of diesel fuel, burned for 4 days, and didnt melt a thing.
The tank, 1/4?-thick steel, never melted.
Yet the 47 HUGE box-section core columns, the main structural supports of the WTC towers, are said to have melted?
Stop, Ill wet my britches laughing.
(snip)
http://physics911.net/mitchell/
maxsolomon
(33,449 posts)So just go on believing crazy shit like everyone else on this thread.
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Dude, i work with the stuff everyday, and if the hypothesis those pencil headed engineers came up with were true then my job and employment would probably be a lot different. Get this, if it were true that petroleum base fuels could burn through steel structures then most of automobiles could hardly make it off the showroom floor. This is not theory, this is fact proved a TRILLIONS times everyday.
Figure it out and tell me how i am wrong
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)which was never hit by a plane or drenched by jet fuel
NIST Engineer John Gross poses by a steel beam from WTC 7.
Steel which was shipped to China and melted down. Destruction of a crime scene is a crime.
We can't examine it now, isn't that a shame.
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Sounds like good evidence to me
(snip)
FAQ #8: What Is Nanothermite? Could It Have Been Used To Demolish The WTC Skyscrapers?
News - News Releases By AE911Truth
Thursday, 19 July 2012 20:49
In order to understand what nanothermite is, we first must understand what ordinary commercial thermite is. Thermite is a mixture of a metal and the oxide of another metal, usually aluminum (Al) and iron oxide (Fe2O3), in a granular or powder form. When ignited, the energetic Al-Fe thermite reaction produces molten iron and aluminum oxide, with the molten iron reaching temperatures well in excess of 4000° F. These temperatures are certainly high enough to allow cuts through structural steel, which generally has a melting point of around 2750° F.
There is also a variant of thermite known as thermate, which is a combination of thermite and sulfur, and is more efficient at cutting through steel. This form of thermite is believed to have been used in the demolition of World Trade Center Building 7. Although conventional thermite has the capability to cut through structural steel, it is technically an incendiary and not an explosive.
Nanothermite (also known as superthermite), simply put, is an ultra-fine-grained (UFG) variant of thermite that can be formulated to be explosive by adding gas-releasing substances. A general rule in chemistry is that the smaller the particles of the reactants, the faster the reaction. Nanothermite, as the name suggests, is thermite in which the particles are so small that they are measured in nanometers (one billionth of a meter). The authors of the peer-reviewed Active Thermitic Materials paper, which documents the discovery of these materials in the WTC dust, explain
(snip)
(snip)
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth (AE911Truth) is a non-profit non-partisan organization of architects, engineers and affiliates dedicated to exposing the falsehoods and to revealing facts about the complete destruction of all three World Trade Center high-rises on September 11, 2001.
Our organization is devoted to:
■ Dispelling misinformation and disinformation with scientific facts and forensic evidence
■ Educating and motivating thousands of architects and engineers as well as the public at large
■ Obtaining a truly independent WTC investigation with subpoena power
■ Achieving mainstream media coverage for our cause
(snip)
http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/646-faq-8-what-is-nanothermite-could-it-have-been-used-to-demolish-the-wtc-skyscrapers.html
librechik
(30,678 posts)I have had people claim they were personal friends with the building manager. I've had close relatives tell me that their friend, and emergency manager, said this or that.
Not believing any of you.
I've seen the actual structural engineer on video talking about how WTC was designed specifically to withstand just such an impact times 3. And steel melts in a specialized oxygenated FURNACE at 2400 degrees. Not accidentally in a building fire.
Now laugh at me, but you are just spreading nonsense.
nikto
(3,284 posts)The investigation was delayed and done by lawyers. Lawyers always get the wrong answers when they ask the wrong questions.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)about WTC 7 free falling for ~3 seconds. How does that happen?
Watch NIST's Shyam Sunder and John Gross squirm trying to answer a question from a high school physics teacher
Parts 2 and 3
http://9-11justice.com/wtc7-free-fall/
Scientific
(314 posts)Hairy Harry Potlover
(42 posts)we were never told anything truthful in the first place!
Scientific
(314 posts)Treason most foul.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)They own a lot of land, buildings, etc. here. They have a lot of leverage on us, in both economic and geopolitical terms.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Specifically, a fanatically puritanical form of Sunni Islam. Hell, the royal family's legitimacy is entirely dependent on the Wahhabist clerics that support them. The idea there was both direct and indirect assistance from members of the House of Saud to members of al-Qaeda - including at least some of the 9/11 hijackers - is not at all far-fetched (if anything, it's the worst-kept secret in Washington).
Of course, the U.S. government has also sponsored terrorists around the world in the name of "democracy" (see: the CIA during the Cold War). Our government is in a glass house on this. Pretty damn awful.
Scientific
(314 posts)I dare call it treason.
AliceWonderland
(1,069 posts)I suppose, from not digging too deep and exhorting people to just move on, already.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)of harden steel reinforced concrete walls
An aluminum tube ............. yeah that's the ticket.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)keep kicking this thread.