Are University Professors overpaid?

[stone space]

Ok, I see assertions being made by right wingers here on DU that university professors are overpaid.

Here's just one example from this morning.

This is why many people think university professors are over paid

Instead of working on lesson plans, grading course work or otherwise engaging in activities related to your alleged job as a professor for a public university, you spend your time here posting. I'm glad my tax dollars aren't paying your salary.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=191863

Now, I don't feel overpaid.

Bit what do folks think?

Are university professors overpaid?

55 votes, 5 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes.
	4 (7%)
	No.
	51 (93%)
	5 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[IamMab]

1. It's the chancellors and administrators that are being paid like CEOs, not professors.

Not to mention all of the money funneled to sports programs that benefit a minority of selected students.

[choie]

21. Agreed!

I'm a NYU alumna and am disgusted at the obscene compensation given to its President. Not only a huge salary but an apt with 6 bathrooms... Meanwhile I am paying off $80,000 for a Masters in Social Work.

[JHB]

31. Six bathrooms? In an apartment? How many rooms overall?

[choie]

88. Sorry - it only has 4.5 bathrooms and

4 bedrooms with a rooftop terrace. It's 4,200 sq ft in total. It is undergoing an estimate of between 1-2 million bucks before he moves in.

[LonePirate]

32. College sports coaches are the highest paid state employee in many states.

That's where any outrage should be directed.

[Jim Beard]

35. True but the sad thing is that a decent sports team becomes a money maker

for the University, more than paying the overpriced coaches. I have never liked college athletics as they are but its hard to overide the income debate.

[Human101948]

57. If you do the math you will find that most sports programs are a drain on the school...

NCAA study finds all but 20 FBS schools lose money on athletics

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/08/ncaa_study_finds_all_but_20_fb.html

[Sgent]

114. Yea but that's all athletics

from Football to Frisbee Golf.

If you just look at football and men's basketball they are huge money makers and subsidize other sports.

[Human101948]

118. sorry that's just not true...

But it’s the great lie of college sports — that high profile programs generate income. The vast majority of them lose money and have to be subsidized, either through exorbitant student fees or, more often, with money pulled out of the school’s general coffers.

Of the 227 public schools that compete at the Division I level, only 22 have athletic programs that bring in more money than they spend.

http://blogs.democratandchronicle.com/watchdog/?p=2249

In fact, for half of all bowl games, participating colleges receive less than $2 million. Eleven games do not even pay a million dollars–and one pays a whopping $165,000. That means academics often pays for athletics, not the other way around. In 1991, the University of Michigan’s creative financing was to use money from a National Science Foundation research grant to pay the bowl bills. The feds found out, and the Wolverines got penalized—so it’s not a good model for other colleges to imitate.

http://time.com/money/4170907/students-are-biggest-losers-in-college-bowl-games/

Despite raking in billions of dollars in television, ticket, and licensing revenues, all but 14 of the 106 schools in the NCAA’s top athletic division (FBS, formerly IA) lost money in 2009. The median loss was over $10 million.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/college-athletics-losing-money/

[Sgent]

121. You haven't refuted my point

the links above talk about athletic programs, not specific sports.

[Human101948]

124. The report found expenses exceeded revenue at all but 20 schools in the Football Bowl Subdivision

The report found that expenses exceeded revenue at all but 20 schools in the Football Bowl Subdivision.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/08/ncaa_study_finds_all_but_20_fb.html

More than two of every five teams in the NCAA tournament either didn't make a dime or lost money on their men's basketball program last year.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/2015/story/_/id/12495302/many-ncaa-tournament-teams-did-not-turn-profit

In 2009, Duke’s highly successful men’s basketball team lost $2 million , Florida Atlantic University had a profit margin of minus 253.7 percent, and Louisiana Tech posted one of minus 306.9 percent. Schools including Rice, Tulane and Colorado State all lost more than $1 million on their men’s basketball programs that year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-college-sports/2015/03/13/d50b1626-c8de-11e4-b2a1-bed1aaea2816_story.html

[LiberalArkie]

2. There are plenty of people here who think McDonalds restaurant workers are paid too much.

[Silver_Witch]

5. And they should be ashamed of themselves!

Anyone that works deserves a wage the can live on!

[metroins]

3. Depends on the University

I never went to College, but my wife did and her professors were vastly overpaid; especially for the actual classroom work they did.

I doubt smaller colleges and community college professors are overpaid.

[Sanity Claws]

15. When did she go?

There has been a huge change in compensation of professors in the last couple of decades.
Most professors these days are adjuncts and teach a specific class for a semester for a certain compensation. There is no guarantee of future assignments and most don't get benefits because they don't teach enough hours. Professors with tenure are paid more but there are fewer of them than ever.

[metroins]

28. Depends on the college

She went 5 years ago to the University of Texas.

I posted a picture of the salaries from a study further in the thread.

http://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/files/2015salarysurvey/2015tab4.pdf

[Sanity Claws]

37. Just reviewed it

It indicates the average salary for different categories. However, it doesn't indicate how many are in each category. From everything I've read and seen, there are fewer tenured professors, meaning that very few are in the top category.
I would like to know how they calculated the annual salary for "instructor" and certain other categories. As far as I know, colleges don't have FT instructors. They tend to be paid on a per class basis.

[metroins]

45. It is all in the study listed below in the thread.

I'm not that vested in the discussion to read through everything.

[Sanity Claws]

47. I read it and couldn't find that information

I went to original source (Academe) but could not access it because I do not belong to the organization.

[Fairgo]

129. Perhaps you shouldn't enter into a debate about the value of learned work

when you can't be bothered to read...

[LisaM]

105. I don't think those professors are being overpaid

I have professor friends and the amount of knowledge they have amassed over the years is spectacular. They share their talents with other universities. They write books. They give lecture series (and have been kind enough to invite me to attend them). They are masters at interpreting their subjects. They are also two of the nicest, kindest friends I have and I enjoy every minute of time spent with them.

They are also more or less constantly on call to provide academic expertise by people all over the world, and they always do so cheerfully. They're enthusiastic about their fields (Ancient Greek History and Colonial American History, respectively). They are a huge asset to their university. The number of students they've inspired - including some who've stayed to teach in the history field - is amazing.

The fact that colleges think they can brush these academic stars aside and just fill in with part-time adjuncts is absolutely mystifying to me. Good professors are the superstars of a good university. Scrap some of the administration and pay them more!

[metroins]

43. You should keep your projections

directed inward. You do not know my career path; my work, my contributions, production or innovation. Re-read your post and ask how it comes off...it does not come off well at all.

I have already posted my thoughts in the thread; you have added nothing to have me rethink my position.

[metroins]

55. Researchers and Teachers

You're confusing why students are sent to University, why they pay tuition, and the oxford definition of Professor. I have included a picture of the definition for you.

If you want to be a researcher, then that should be your title and your grants may pay your Salary. If you want to identify as a Professor, than your primary responsibility should be teaching the students who fund the institution. If you are paid as a Professor and expected to teach, then you may leave the "Researcher" title behind the second you walk into that classroom and you may pick it back up when you exit that room.

I don't know what you self identify as; but this is a Professor.

[GulfCoast66]

59. How rich

Your first post states you did not attend college, and there is nothing wrong with that. But to then lecture a professor and tell him he is not really a professor?

You do not know what in the hell you are talking about.

In my field of study, agriculture, many professors spent most of their time researching and would teach maybe one class a term. This allows the students to study the very latest in scientific understanding. This has been the model that the American higher education system has used for over a century. And has made it the premier higher education system in the world.

When we start criticizing the pay of civil servants or other people who actually work for a living we are falling into a trap the right wing sets for us.

[metroins]

61. The OP asks do you think Professors are overpaid

and I said Yes.

I think Professors do not do enough teaching and I think that University courses are severely lacking. If a Professor is spending all of their time Researching; well I expect that Professor to be deemed a Researcher, not a Professor, not a teacher. When I send my children off to University, I expect to have the actual Professor teach the class who's name is attached to it or to have a strong hand in how the course is developed.

I didn't make the OP, I am expressing my opinion that I feel Professors are overpaid. We can criticize multiple things at one time.

[Coventina]

62. My advice: Don't send your kids to a research university.

A research university recruits their faculty based on their research in the field.
It doesn't matter if they are the worst teacher ever.

If you want quality teachers for your kids, I recommend community college or a small liberal arts college.
That is where you will find the best teaching Professors.

[Jim Beard]

122. You are very definitely correct, at least as it was in the 1960's. After that, I have no idea.

[GulfCoast66]

63. Leaving aside the pay issue

We call a person who does nothing but teach the teacher. Your child will have just had 12 years of being taught by teachers. The advantage of going to a great college or university is exposure to great minds who do both research and teach about their research. You are actually complaining what is in fact our biggest strength.

But it having professors researching as well as teaching bothers you this much then just send your child to a junior-college. There, he or she can have two or four more years of high school style teaching.

[LanternWaste]

72. What objective evidence do you have supporting that premise?

"I think Professors do not do enough teaching"

What objective evidence do you have supporting that premise; what then is the precise amount of time they should spend teaching, and on what objective measure is that number predicated on?

[momto3]

65. I am an Assistant Professor at a major research university.

I spent close to 15 years of my life studying science. I am expected to cover 75% of my salary with research grants in a time when NIH funding is at an all time low. The funding level of most research grants is at 5-10%, so I write 5-10 research grants a year and hope that something will get funded so that I will not be considered "under performing". I am tenure track, but not tenured. In order to get tenure, I need to teach, perform research, write grants and papers, mentor students, perform service for the university, my department and the community and participate in as many research societies as my budget can handle. I do not get reimbursed for the hours I spend putting together good lectures for my students. And, I have to pay a couple of thousand dollars a year just in society application fees. The truth about tenure is that, even though I still have perform all of the functions that I mentioned above, I will only get tenured if I can secure consistent funding. Did I mention that the funding level is 5-10%, and even lower for new faculty members like myself.

Don't get me wrong, I love science, research and mentoring which is why I will stick around as long as they will let me. But do not try to tell me that I am over paid. I am not going to mention my current salary, but l will state that I could make more money as a manager of several different local stores. My scenario is common among junior faculty members. We work constantly for low pay because we love what we do. We also realize that if we don't stay around, there will be a major generational gap for highly trained scientists in our country.

End rant.

[Adrahil]

70. Professors at top universities....

both teach and conduct research. And students benefit from professors who are actively involved in cutting edge research in their fields. Especially at the graduate level, professors need to be able to produce new knowledge and to train their students to do the same. In many cases, students can participate in research efforts, preparing them for cutting edge work in their fields.

[metroins]

74. They also have to "Teach"

As others have suggested, teaching "1" class a semester or allowing others to teach the class is not a "Professor" in my opinion and is overpaid.

[Adrahil]

77. Well... how many professors do you think teach one class a semester?

Seriously. I think people look at the grifting "celebrity" professor ala Cornell West and they think that's the life of University professors. Most folks don;t even realize that most professors are part-time or contracting faculty who ONLY teach and get paid rather poorly. And many don't realize the extra duties associated with the job, such as advising administrative work, and committee work.

You said your wife's professors were vastly overpaid. What do you think a fair wage is for someone with a PhD teaching at a University?

[metroins]

84. To answer

Sorry it's longer than I wanted to write.

1. I posted the compensation of Professors further along in the thread; which has their actual compensation averages for 1,000+ Institutions and broken down. I would assume this accounts for all of their part-time or contracting faculty. If a course has part-time staff, well maybe the Professor could start teaching those classes like they are paid for.

2. I'm not going to realize, or care, about the extra duties with a job....Every job has extra duties. I work 24/7, my wife works 10-12+ hour days, 7 days a week, same with everybody I know. This is not a valid argument anymore in today's society (something that's wrong with society today).

3. I think a fair wage is around 80-110k, the chart below shows 130k+ in compensation; my wifes professors earned 200k+. Professors are getting paid to educate the student body, they need to be in the classroom; I think they were overpaid for what the student pays tuition for.

Now to be fair, my wifes Masters degree was worth the money for the knowledge; however, she gained a lot of knowledge in exercises with other students or research papers she wrote. My wife went into a low paying field, so I don't care about the ROI, it is the education that matters. She was accepted into all top 6 universities for her field, she chose #3.

I am entitled to my opinion that Professors are over paid for the work they perform. Not all professors obviously, just like any job, there are good ones and bad ones.

[Adrahil]

101. And my reply...

BTW, I don't mind long detailed answers. In fact, I appreciate the context.... now...

First off, not bloody many professors are making $130K. Those are FULL professors (so, probably 15 years experience with lots of professional accomplishments). Most tenure line professors are going to be assistant or Associate professors. That would put their pay right in the area of what you consider a fair wage (and that's just at Reasearch I institutions... of which only a minority of colleges are). I can tell you that my wife, an Associate Professor with 11 years experience at a Research I public university, makes no where near $130K. None of her colleagues do either.

These numbers do get skewed a bit by majors where professors can demand higher salaries. For example, PhD engineers can make some serious Tubmans in industry. In order to actually attract them to a university, you need to pay a competitive salaries. They are going to make a LOT more than a history professor (for example).

And let's not forget that a huge chunk of the classes are taught by contract and adjunct faculty making peanuts. And typically, teaching in their only job.

And extra duties are , in fact, part of the job. My wife works 50-60 hours a week (sometimes more). She spends about 12 hours a week in the classroom. Lots of the time is spent on prep, grading, office hours, advising.... all directly related to servicing student educations. That's quite aside from her departmental and administrative duties.

You can, of course, send your kid to a non-research institution: a community college, a third tier state college, small private colleges. At a non-research institution, the professors typically do not have research and publication requirements. But the fact is, very often the quality of graduates from those institutions is below those from the R1 institutions. Learning from the top scholars in the field makes a difference. But students DO have that option, if they want it.

[MrsMatt]

119. Ha! My husband is a full professor

at a large land grant university and if he made 80k annually, I'd be ecstatic.

He teaches the classes assigned to him by the dean; typically upper level classes in his field. Part of his job duties requires him to collaborate with professionals outside of the university system. This is important, in that he builds a network whereby his students can have an opportunity to work with professionals in their field. So they can make contacts and build a CV. So they can get jobs after they graduate.

I am entitled to my opinion that you know nothing about what a university or college professor does to earn his/her salary.

[metroins]

126. Your husband sounds like a good professor

Unfortunately, a lot of them are not and in the chart below the thread I listed average incomes.

Your husband should set the standard.

[GulfCoast66]

123. Let me re-state what I said earlier

In a manner you might understand...you are full of Shit.

The fact that someone that has not been to college or university can make such a derogatory statements about professors is astounding.

I think we put way too much emphasis on going to college at the expense of folks who know how to do real work But it seems apparent to me that you for some reason you are jealous of those who have been successfully in academics.

When we are jealous of other people who actually work for a living we are falling into a right wing trap.

Perhaps, rather than worrying about working folks who makes too much money you should be worried about those who make too little. I guarantee you college professors are not part of the 1%

[metroins]

125. That's not nice at all

My statement is that Professors earn too much and don't spend enough time in the classroom teaching students like the students paid them to.

It's common for Professors to push teaching off to other lower paid staff, and I think that's wrong. Students are at the college for a reason, to learn from experts and those experts should be teaching every class they can.

I am not jealous of professors, you have misconstrued my posts. I own an financial educational technology company, I teach adults complex business practices, complex software practices and I earn more than most professors. I teach 13 days in a row each month and I design software, write books (I'm on #3) manage staff and customer support every day. All while traveling 3+ hours to most job sites. I know education, even though I've never been to college.

University Professors in my opinion are overpaid for the work they are supposed to be doing.

[Adrahil]

66. Just so you know....

In-classroom work represents maybe 20% of a professors workload. Tops. I'm talking tenure-line professors here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

96. if she went to a good university, they were paid to do research not teach

teaching is not really why professors are highly compensated

[a la izquierda]

131. I teach at an R-1

Most of us who are not in physics and biology are, in fact, paid to teach.
40:40:20 is the ratio of my work obligations. That 20% is service.

I get paid less than some K-12 teachers. And I have a fucking PhD that took 7 years to get.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

135. I'm on your side.

[a la izquierda]

136. Ah, gotcha...

Reading before coffee (and in between grading finals) is not recommended at this point in the semester.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. some professors are paid to teach, some are paid to do research, some are paid for both

99% are paid less than they are worth. the 1% are the celebrity profs and they are paid what they are worth.

[Buzz Clik]

103. Keep in mind that classroom teaching is not the only obligation of university profs.

Research, outreach, service to professional societies, pro bono work, etc.

[GreatGazoo]

4. College Football coaches -- $5 million per 14 games

[Travis_0004]

54. I dont have a problem with that

College football and basketball typically make enough profit to fund all other sports.

[Human101948]

58. No they don't...

NCAA study finds all but 20 FBS schools lose money on athletics

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/08/ncaa_study_finds_all_but_20_fb.html

[Demonaut]

6. any link to average pay...how can you ask a question with no data showing salaries?

[ProgressiveEconomist]

14. LINK where you can download

a PDF of the AAUP's latest salary survey:

http://www.aaup.org/reports-publications/2014-15salarysurvey

I haven't looked at one in years, but I know the AAUP is the most comprehensive source of academic salary information I've ever encountered in many years of searching for it.

[metroins]

27. Here.

I read your link and found the table.

http://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/files/2015salarysurvey/2015tab4.pdf

[ProgressiveEconomist]

75. Thanks for doing that work

I just remembered "AAUP" and googled "Salary AAUP". You took up the considerable slack I left behind with my laziness.

[metroins]

76. It was a team effort

[Baobab]

83. This is what I was taking about

http://www.eua.be/Libraries/publication/EUA_Statement_TTIP.pdf

[metroins]

85. I think you replied to the wrong post.

We weren't talking about TTIP or tarrifs

[Baobab]

86. where have you been the last 20 years? Thats okay, I already know.

They are commodifying education - basically privatizing and crapifying it globally. There is a war on public services thats going on. It goes back 20 years.

https://www.citizen.org/documents/HigherEdFactSheet080508.pdf

The US is pushing this, we are the main force behind this, the most extremely neoliberal country in this, its hugely wrong, obviously its very controversial. Everywhere except for here.

You know why, they have not told Americans about this agenda we are pushing at all. We are supposed to be a democracy, but we dont even know.

Do you here want to see public education privatized so that for profit colleges are not competed with by public colleges?

[Baobab]

90. here is a link which will bring up a lot of the debate in india last year

https://www.google.co.in/#q=GATS+WTO+education

[Baobab]

29. Regulation may be 'not more burdensome than necessary to ensure the quality of the service'

Last edited Thu May 5, 2016, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)

that phrase is taken from the text of the WTO General Agreement on Trade in Services and it refers to what kinds of national laws are allowed, they must not restrict international trade in services, for example, licensing and visa laws must be conformed so as to not deprive other nations of the benefits conferred by the agreement.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

79. I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at

Even at religious and other non-public higher ed institutions, governments already pay large proportions of the bills, when you take into account loans, student grants, faculty grants, undertaxation, etc. And "she who pays the piper always calls the tune"; with funding comes regulatory "strings".

Are you referring to "America's College Promise"? Google it. IMO, that $100 billion a year proposal to make community college tuition-free could be accomplished during HRC's first 100 days in office. It's based on academic work by brilliant Harvard economist Claudia Goldin ("The Race Between Education and Technology&quot and already largely has been implemented as a very popular Republican initiative in very red Tennessee.

[Baobab]

100. An obscure area called "competition policy" - as well as trade policy is what is driving US policy

especially HRC's. Bernie Sanders is pretending that these deals, which were all the result of negotiations that few Americans are aware of, don't exist. Which is a good argument perhaps for their elimination or invalidation, because f lack of legitimacy.

For example, in health care, we've had almost a decade of health care reform that NOT ONCE has mentioned the fact that the exact same deal is the main obstacle to affordable health care.

They arent mentioning it probably because they want to use what i consider to be fake artificial crises to push down the barrers to cross border trade in services, greatly lowering wages

instead of raising wages in the countries with very low wages, they may well be trying to use international organizations like the WTO to lower wages here down to that level- in a way they can blame on others.

Remember the very public argument between Elizabeth Warren and Obama about whether an external organization like the WTO could tell us to change laws here?

[Coventina]

7. This stuff drives me crazy. Do critics of professorial pay have any idea what it takes to become a

college professor?

The enormous commitment of time, money, sweat, etc.?

You have to be proven expert in your field, and hold an advanced degree.

To anyone who wants to shoot their mouth off about how much professors are overpaid: please, by all means, join us on our "gravy train"!!! Much of the academic class is aging out of the educational system and we need you!!

[CrispyQ]

33. This is my theory based on my experience only.

There is an anger toward teachers & professors because "they have summers off." I've heard it said many, many times. People see just that & don't think about anything else. I think that's one reason it was so easy for jerks like Limbaugh to demonize teachers.

[Coventina]

36. That one really galls me as well. Anybody can "have summers off" WHEN THEY AREN'T PAID!

I have a 9 month contract! I don't get paid in the summers!

I welcome anyone who thinks I have a life of leisure to also forego their pay for three months!
Take your summer off as well!!

I have the option of getting paid all 12 months, but it's the same nine-month salary, just divided into more and smaller bits.

This whole lie about "full-time pay for part-time work" is certainly used by the right to demonize education.

[CrispyQ]

40. I know it's stupid, but they don't think that way.

All they see is that someone has summers off. I always ask them, "Then why didn't you become a teacher?"

Some people also think teachers have shorter workdays. Like the only time that counts is the time in front of class, but not the time spent with lesson planning, grading papers, & dealing with asshole parents.

[Baobab]

104. No, they see millions of skilled teachers in other countries who they think would work for less

under temporary guest worker programs.

That is almost certainly the plan. Similar situation exists in health care, construction, IT. This is part of the WTO deal which was struck between the developed and developing world during the Clinton years but it stalled because US politics didn't want to deliver on the "Mode Four" part of it. Mode Four=movement of natural persons. Guest workers.

Also, during those years, various committees have been working on so called "disciplines on domestic regulation"


There may be some useful info in here:

[Baobab]

87. They don't care. Neoliberalism just cares about supply and demand

Read up on World Competition Day, that will give you a good idea of how services are being framed now.

Americans are going to have to justify the extra money we are being paid, somehow. In many cases it wont be possible.

Its really a trick thats being played on the country, people should know about this 20 year legacy of services negotiations.

[hfojvt]

92. actually I got paid for graduate school

If I had known how much money professors make, I would have been more likely to continue.

But one of my classmates graduate ABD and then I later heard he was working in construction.

Of course you know, a guild generally creates barriers to entry to justify their enormous pay.

[stone space]

141. As a TA, I was paid to attend grad school as well.

actually I got paid for graduate school

It's what made getting my PhD possible for me, together with accepting somebody without an undergraduate degree into the program.

I was never able to get an undergraduate degree, due to high tuition.

Still don't have one.

[Buzz Clik]

106. Excellent point. Most profs (with exceptions, of course) would make a lot more in the private sector

A highly skilled engineer at a top university would make 10-fold their salary in industry or other enterprise.

[Blue_Tires]

8. At the university I work at, definitely not

(small state university dealing with heavy cutbacks in state funding and declining enrollment...)

[Baobab]

9. The imminent globalization of these industries will probably mean wages will soonreflectglobal norms

When university chains can move their employees around the world at will (soon) the wages in any country will likely reflect global norms more than past practice. For example, say an full professor here makes $100k a year and the global average is around $25k The equilibrium point may be around $35-40k since the population of the rich countries is not as large as that of the poorer countries. Eventually the wages in a great many fields will equalize out at a much lower level than they are today and corporations will have a level playing field, heir contracts will be based on what they can deliver and not on where they are, wages will be based on objective and verifiable criteria such as degrees earned and not on location.

These changes which have been in the pipeline for quite a while being worked out, will also make the education (medicine, law, IT) industries far more profitable.

[karadax]

12. This is a great example of why Trump resonates with people.

His argument is that globalization hurts the country more than helps. Why ? Because our country is ( he thinks was) rich and in order to balance things out globally we have to lose more to gain even less. He will go straight to those striking teachers in Detroit and tell them that he will stop it from happening so they can get paid top dollar. Some will listen.

It's hard to demonstrate the positives of a global economy to people in a country like the US. They don't see any tangible gains in their backyard.

[Baobab]

24. What I described is the kind of globalization that Trump likes, he uses it.

So he can get really cheap employees . Its legal, its built into investment agreements. they allow corporations to use intra-corporate transfers to move their employees wherever they want. It will lead to equal pay for equal work. I think US proposals insist at least minimum wage though. We wont see professors being paid less than minimum wage.

That's probably why they are raising it.

So are we clear on this. Clinton and Trump are both pro this.

Because its not illegal. Not only is it not illegal, its mandatory.

We can't create a global organization, reap benefits from it for 20 years, and then welch out on our side of the deal.

[6chars]

10. Some yes, some no.

The ones who work diligently are underpaid for their training, skills, and contributions. There is a minority that slacks off after tenure and who are overpaid. That minority draws a lot of attention. The resentment they inspire wrecks things for everyone who does it right.

[GummyBearz]

11. Depends on whether they have tenure and how much they actually work if they do

My wife teaches at junior colleges (not tenured), so I know exactly what she makes. Her pay seems fair to me, but she really kills herself putting in a ton of extra hours into her classes to make them better, so the "hourly" pay is pretty low for her.

My grad professor didn't do shit and therefore was WAY WAY over paid. He used the same 5 year old notes for every lecture, missed at least a weeks worth of classes every quarter (making his grad student give the lecture), reused half of his old midterm and final questions while making his grad students write the other half of the tests. The day before grades were due he would call a meeting with ~5 of his grad students and there would be a stack of ungraded final exams and he would say "ok guys divide these up and grade them" then go off to wherever.

So, that guy got ~90K salary for roughly 90 hours per year of actual work. I'd say $1,000/hour is over paid for a professor

[linuxman]

13. Seeing as there is no nationally standardized rate, who can say?

How much do you make, what are your qualifications, how many subjects do you teach, how many classes, etc.

Some are undoubtedly overpaid. Some undoubtedly are underpaid.

[Orrex]

16. They sure are--especially those adjunct professors!

Some of them can almost afford to buy food and clothing.

[astrophuss42]

17. Admin and the tenured can make what seems like too high a wage to many

But adjuncts and part timers might as well work at The Gap.

[jpak]

18. Ask adjuncts - that teach half the classes at many colleges and universities

for poverty wages...

yup

[redstatebluegirl]

19. DO NOT GET ME STARTED!

My husband has written 8 peer reviewed papers, 6 federal grants, manages a large research lab full of grad students, teaches 3 classes each semester, coordinates a program for low income students interested in science and serves on at least 5 different academic committees on campus. None of the people who say he is overpaid work like he does. There are Administrative Assistants on campus who make more than he does. Administrators who make twice what he does. We are still paying student loans on his 8 years of school.

Two words for those who think he is overpaid...STUFF IT!

[n2doc]

20. Divide and conquer

I see this whenever ANY profession where people make more than, say, 25K a year comes up. There is alway some poster that comes along and screams 'overpaid'.

Fuck that shit. We all need to be 'overpaid'. Work towards that goal instead of following the politics of envy and doing the work for the 0.0001%.

[melm00se]

22. there are 3 possibilities:

they can be overpaid
they aren't overpaid
they are paid just right

it is entirely dependent upon the organization that employs them and what their role is within that organization.

Were they hired as researchers with some teaching?
Were they hired for the reverse?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

23. Is it raining today? Are you out in the rain?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some people yes, some people no.

[enlightenment]

25. This needs more information.

University, four-year, two-year?
Private or public?
Tenured or not tenure track?
If tenured, what rank - assistant; associate; full?
Course load?
Research/publication requirements?

Just tossing out a question like that is meaningless - as meaningless as the criticisms that lumps all higher ed together.

Off the top of my head, I'd say the answer to your question is a resounding 'no', but that's because of the way you phrased it.

"Professor" is a courtesy title, not a degree - so your question includes all who teach in higher ed. Given that between close to 70% of all faculty teaching in higher ed are contingent/adjunct instructors who work on semester-to-semester contract and average less than $30,000 annually (in a majority of cases, less than $20,000), there can be no other answer than 'no'.


And before anyone says "they don't have to do it" - reread what I wrote. If contingent faculty all walked out tomorrow (for those non-existent better jobs the economy is offering), they would shut down the system. No, they don't have to do it - but the system is entrenched, so it's kind of like saying that medical residents don't "have to" work 72 hour shifts. They don't have to, but the system depends on them doing it to continue operating.

[LanternWaste]

26. I've seen zero objective evidence supporting the premise.

I've seen zero objective evidence supporting the premise. It appears the response you've illustrated for us is based wholly upon a false exclusionary disjunct-- which surprises me little: people are often hostile to that which they do not understand, hence, the respondent is hostile to education.

[CrispyQ]

30. University sports coaches are overpaid.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/college-sports-fastest-rising-expense-paying-coaches-not-to-work/2015/12/10/ec856b42-9d33-11e5-bce4-708fe33e3288_story.html

snip...

The University of Illinois paid fired football coach Ron Zook $1.3 million while he spent a year trying a new career in banking and working on his water-skiing in Florida.

The University of California paid Jeff Tedford $1.8 million while he took a year off and vacationed in New Zealand.

The University of Maryland paid Ralph Friedgen $2 million while he tried out retirement, played a lot of golf and cruised the South Carolina coastline in his 24-foot whaler, “Fishing with the Fridge.”

These are just a few examples of the golden parachutes that await many newly unemployed coaches in the lucrative world of major college sports, a phenomenon recently retired football coach Steve Spurrier once called “hitting that lottery ticket.” Severance pay is the top-rising expense for athletic departments at some of America’s largest public universities, according to a Washington Post review of thousands of pages of financial records from schools in the five wealthiest conferences in college sports.

In a decade, the total annual amount spent on severance by athletic departments at 48 public universities in the “Power Five” conferences increased from $12.9 million combined in 2004, adjusted for inflation, to $28.5 million in 2014. That 120 percent jump outpaced rises on larger athletic budget items such as facilities spending (89 percent), coaches pay (85 percent) and administrative-staff pay (69 percent).

We burden our young kids with huge debt early in their lives so these assholes can enjoy a life of excess.

[skip fox]

34. The high cost of college

comes from multiple factors, including increased administrative positions, but not professor pay.

(I'm currently ending my 34th year at the Univ. of Louisiana at Lafayette, so I'm biased.)

[NCTraveler]

39. Congrats on 34 years.

[NCTraveler]

38. Some are, some aren't. Similar to many professions.

I'm just not big on going after salaries the likes of which I want to see more of. I have some issues with Universities and professors but overall pay isn't one of them in general.

[exboyfil]

42. Many states make the salaries of all state employees

public so folks can look for themselves.

A big source of funds for universities are grants. As you would expect there are significant grants available in both science and engineering (not sure about the other disciplines). Some researchers take entire labs and support staffs with them when they change universities for a better situation.

In general pay is lower for university professors than equivalent positions in private industry. My BIL has a Biochemistry PhD from Harvard, and he has turned down positions at smaller colleges because the compensation is not sufficient.

I probably make about what a tenured professor would make at a large research institution in my state, and I would never make tenure even if I had finished my PhD degree.

I guess it does come down to what you value. Give one example - the research of Melissa Click who was a tenure track Communications professor making $60K/yr.

A tenured engineering full professor with lots of grants with which I know professionally in my field makes $170K/yr.

In most salary reports except for coaches and highest level administrators, the highest made members of universities are the teaching doctors. Some make more than $1M/yr.

FERENTZ,KIRK J University of Iowa Head Coach JOHNSON M $1,920,000.00 $4,606.98 $3,950,000.00 2015
HOIBERG FREDRICK K Iowa State University Head Coach STORY M $0.00 $5,631.40 $2,133,712.08 2015
RHOADS PAUL R Iowa State University Head Coach STORY M $375,000.00 $7,721.00 $1,849,999.98 2015
KATES,KENNETH PHILIP University of Iowa - Center For D & D Associate Vice President JOHNSON M $776,162.00 $6,244.78 $1,614,217.00 2015
KATES,KENNETH PHILIP University of Iowa - Hospital & Clinics Associate Vice President JOHNSON M $776,162.00 $6,244.78 $1,614,217.00 2015
KATES,KENNETH PHILIP University of Iowa - Psych Hospital Associate Vice President JOHNSON M $776,162.00 $6,244.78 $1,614,217.00 2015
MCCAFFERY,FRANCIS JOHN University of Iowa Head Coach JOHNSON M $1,200,000.00 $31,834.28 $1,550,000.00 2015
GRUBER,PETER JOHN University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $672,000.00 $21,044.51 $1,205,000.00 2015
REED,ALAN I University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $717,653.00 $3,328.66 $850,107.96 2015
ROBILLARD,JEAN E University of Iowa Vp For Medical Affairs JOHNSON M $741,260.00 $15,051.63 $842,573.00 2015
LEATH STEVEN Iowa State University President STORY M $525,000.00 $16,145.49 $835,460.57 2015
BLUDER,LISA University of Iowa Head Coach JOHNSON F $486,540.00 $35,983.08 $795,776.99 2015
JACOBSON BENJAMIN S University of Northern Iowa Head Coach BLACK HAWK M $650,000.00 $11,992.50 $795,000.25 2015
HOWARD,MATTHEW A University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $724,887.00 $10,314.23 $794,045.00 2015
SCHWINN,DEBRA ANNE University of Iowa Dean JOHNSON F $642,890.00 $22,394.67 $767,919.00 2015
TUREK,JOSEPH W University of Iowa Assistant Professor JOHNSON M $700,000.00 $7,635.72 $764,325.45 2015
GANTZ,BRUCE JAY University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $626,627.00 $41,014.68 $709,159.16 2015
BOLLIER,MATTHEW JOHN University of Iowa Clinical Assistant Professor JOHNSON M $300,000.00 $5,706.67 $706,230.88 2015
WEIGEL,RONALD University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $797,660.00 $13,235.18 $701,610.96 2015
JOHNSON,ARLAN T University of Iowa Clinical Professor JOHNSON M $353,333.00 $1,045.80 $699,072.37 2015
FRIDRICH,KIRK LEE University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $588,750.00 $6,395.26 $692,664.08 2015
MARSH,J LAWRENCE University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $679,471.00 $6,771.46 $687,763.21 2015
HEMMINGSON-VAN BEEK,MARTA JANE University of Iowa Clinical Associate Professor JOHNSON F $387,600.00 $13,510.41 $679,919.73 2015
HITCHON,PATRICK University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $542,299.00 $6,052.14 $675,114.96 2015
BUATTI,JOHN MICHAEL University of Iowa Professor JOHNSON M $693,686.00 $6,841.93 $673,612.00 2015

[Turin_C3PO]

44. Massively underpaid, imo. nt.

[malthaussen]

46. I think that's an incredibly broad question.

Which should come as no surprise, as it is a RW assertion (as you point out).

No doubt some are paid a lot more than they're worth. No doubt some are paid a lot less. And we won't even talk about adjuncts.

-- Mal

[ProfessorGAC]

48. Yes. Everybody Is Overpaid Except Me

I was channeling my inner Trump supporter. Good thing i can keep that demon in there.

[Throd]

49. The bad ones are.

[matt819]

51. More appropriate questions

Do you think administrators and university leadership are overpaid?

Do you think athletic directors and coaches are overpaid?

Do you think adjunct staff is overpaid?

Do you think it's appropriate that private university tuition has grown at a rate far exceeding inflation over the past 30 years and that an undergraduate education at an ivy league school runs $200,000+? And not due to professor salaries.

Do you think it's appropriate that state university tuitions can run $80,000 or more for four years?

And then let's discuss student loans and job opportunities.

[stone space]

82. As a pacifist, I don't have excess to student loans and grants.

And then let's discuss student loans and job opportunities.

There's a reason why I don't have an undergraduate degree to this day, and likely never will, absent free tuition.

[merrily]

52. Which school and which prof?

[1StrongBlackMan]

53. I voted "Pass" ...

As I work in a University, my answer is some are GROSSLY over-paid, while others are GROSSLY under-paid.

There are a lot of factors that determine Faculty compensation.

[Hiraeth]

56. in a true/false situation, I was taught that statements like this are prima facie false.

[bbgrunt]

60. Overpaid? What does that even mean in a capitalist society? In

a capitalist society you are supposedly paid according to the laws of supply and demand....and paid the value of your marginal revenue product. Of course, we do not have anything near the conditions for this pure competitive market result to occur, but to determine whether one is under or overpaid you would have to determine exactly what the compensation would be under those conditions.

[caraher]

64. It's a different life to be sure

One of the beauties of being a professor is the flexibility... you can work whichever 80 hours a week you choose!

We don't clock in... neither do we clock out. It can be all-consuming. One perk is that when I need a break I actually can read and post on DU. The downside is that I go home late, when I'm at home I'm thinking about work, grading, writing, you name it.

[jmg257]

67. Hard to know - how much do you make? nt

[stone space]

69. I made about $27,000 last year. (nt)

[jmg257]

71. (W/O all the details) - Then you are definitely NOT over-paid.

About $13?? That's a very low salary.

[stone space]

73. Well, I do have my summers off these days.

Used to teach extra summer classes during the summer for extra cash.

Some folks seem to resent every penny we earn.

[seabeyond]

68. A huge ass revolution to increase peoples pay, ... then yell out to slash wages. Brilliant argument.

[Fresh_Start]

78. some are, most are not, some are underpaid

and adjuncts are probably in the worse situation of all

[Initech]

80. No. Only one group of people in this country are overpaid: the CEO.

If you think anyone else is, you're only playing into that trap.

[abelenkpe]

81. Are you f-ing kidding me?

The person who thinks university professors are overpaid is a delusional twit who would be more at home at free republic. And O he is happy his tax dollars don't go to pay for education?...Seriously what other clue do we need that that poster was a republican troll?

Ugh. No. University Professors and instructors are grotesquely underpaid.

[Fairgo]

133. This is laughable

I think I will keep my stories to myself, this line of shit is beneath contempt.

[stone space]

139. His open support for Zimmerman mught be another clue.

Seriously what other clue do we need that that poster was a republican troll?

Of course, he's not alone in that respect here. He's got company.

Zimmermann broke no current laws, acted reasonably and Florida laws relating to any of his actions need no changes

15 (48%)

Abnredleg, shedevil69taz, 840high, Lurks Often, mackdaddy, Surf Fishing Guru, blueridge3210, Big_Mike, Calista241, COLGATE4, Straw Man, mr_liberal, virginia mountainman, gejohnston, mog75

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172166391

[hfojvt]

89. perhaps you could provide some data

How much do you make?

It's kinda hard to tell what the starting salary is. Here, for example, is a database showing a number of assistant professors making over $100,000 a year, some making double that.

That is a LOT of money. That's way way more money than most Kansas taxpayers make. http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/12/08/university-of-kansas-faculty-salary-database.html

[stone space]

91. $27,000 last year.

perhaps you could provide some data

How much do you make?

[hfojvt]

93. are you really at a University and a professor?

or just an adjunct? Or did you get that for teaching one class? I am pretty sure that even at Emporia State, professors make more money than that, even to start.

[stone space]

94. Lecturer of Mathematics at a State University. (nt)

[hfojvt]

97. in other words

no.

And you could make more money teaching math at the average high school in Kansas.

My niece though, near the end of her first year, says that is frustrating and she it taking a year off.

[Buzz Clik]

108. You're a prof? Or ... work at a university in some other capacity?

[stone space]

110. Lecturer of Mathematics at a State University. (nt)

[Buzz Clik]

111. I'd say you aren't overpaid...

duh

[stone space]

112. I certainly don't feel overpaid. (nt)

[Adrahil]

113. A PhD is a lot more education than most taxpayers have too....

$100K is a pretty solid Upper-Middle class job. It doesn't strike me as unreasonable for college professor to be making an upper-middle class salary. I mean, don't we WANT more people making good middle-class salaries?

[hfojvt]

115. it's more like upper class

than upper middle class. 80% of Kansas households make less than $94,000 a year. If a prof marries a prof, or somebody with similar income, they are at 200K. 95% of Kansas households make less than $177,000 a year.

To me, the top 5% is upper class. There's nothing middle about being richer than 90% of your neighbors.

And that is salary for an ASSISTANT professor. Presumably associates and full professors make even more, and if they write books they get even more, and so on.

People at the top always have some reason for why they deserve to be at the top.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

95. according to right wingers everyone but businessmen/women are overpaid

but it takes 2 years to get an MBA and about 7 to get a PhD.

[Buzz Clik]

107. It's amazing how they discount the value of educated people.

... and if anyone could use more education...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

109. i think it serves the ruling class of the party to demonize the educated

and it also saves rank and file from threats to their ego.

hence demonizing academia works well on a lot of diff. levels.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

98. What do you teach? How many classes?

Or, how much non-class research are you involved in? Anything that the average Bozo (such as myself) would understand?

[stone space]

99. I do research on my own time. I'm paid to teach. (nt)

[Jackie Wilson Said]

102. LOTS of right wingers on DU with long histories here.

NO liberal EVER says ANYBODY in education is over paid

[Skittles]

116. that post, that came from a fucking idiot

that's what I think

[Johonny]

117. +1

[hunter]

120. +2

.

[Califonz]

127. Good thing DU believes in a secret ballot...

[a la izquierda]

128. I am a university professor.

I teach at a gigantic state university that has an R-1 (research intensive) classification.
I am on a tenure track in a History department.
I make mid-$50s.
I do not get paid in the summers, yet I am expected to research and write. I work almost 365 days a year.

I'm not overpaid.

[Fairgo]

130. The anti-intellectual instinct runs deep

Odd to see it so prevalent here

[a la izquierda]

132. I expect it from Republicans, such ignorance about universities...

I don't expect it from Democrats. But ignorance and anti-intellectualism have no political party I suppose.

I have professor friends on food stamps. Fuck that noise.

[Android3.14]

134. I've taught at university as an adjunct

Most FT or tenured professors do little when it comes to teaching, except to lecture. They rarely change their lesson plans, and they certainly have plenty of idle time, because they have so few classes to teach. Often they have someone else (work study student or student assistant) grade their own student's work.

Most perform little or no research, and when they do, they are regurgitating old research as "meta".

Public universities pay their professors just fine for the modicum of work they actually perform, and professors, in general, should have a more pragmatic work ethic to keep up-to-date in their field, improve their teaching methodology, and add to the value of the academic experience.

(For those with with a habit of clutching pearls, please note the word "most". I'm sure that any professors reading this response are working their guts out rather than wasting time with an online political forum.)

[stevenleser]

138. Changed post to other after reading what the poster you misquoted actually said.

As a University professor, you should be familiar with the logical fallacy known as Straw man, right?

[stone space]

140. Misquoted? I used C&P. I didn't retype it myself.

Last edited Fri May 6, 2016, 11:42 AM - Edit history (1)

Changed post to other after reading what the poster you misquoted actually said.

That technique often helps to avoid misquotes, in my experience.

As a University professor, you should be familiar with the logical fallacy known as Straw man, right?

I am familiar with Straw Man's fallacies, as well as Lurks Often's fallacies, the guy whose post I C&P'd in the OP.

As self-avowed Zimmerman supporters, Lurks Often and Straw Man often make the same fallacies here on DU.

Zimmermann broke no current laws, acted reasonably and Florida laws relating to any of his actions need no changes

15 (48%)

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[GOPblows431]

142. Hahaha, no

They get paid peanuts for all the stress they have to go through.