Adults that spoil kids aggravate me

[Sarah Ibarruri]

My goodness, I never cease to be amazed at how some parents think their kids are God's answer to the planet. This applies mostly (I'd say almost exclusively) to the parents that have the brattiest kids on the planet.

Yesterday I had to spend some time with one of these kids because the mother felt that her child is so delightful, that surely all adults WANTED to have her child in their midst interrupting everything the adults said, and trying to break everything in the house and filthy it up. The adults wanted to make a run for it. That kid was loud, boisterous, not particularly bright, and (as if all the rest were not enough), NOT fascinating in the least. What the mom felt was grown up behavior on her child's part was merely a tremendous capacity for being obnoxious and unpleasant.

However, this mom was oohing and aahing about her kid (heck, who else was going to ooh and aah for this walking, talking obnoxia?), and trying to elicit our oohs and aahs, which were not forthcoming. I plastered what I refer to as, 'the look of the insane' smile on my face and pretended I was a robot. No oohs and aahs would come from me.

Why do parents (GENERALLY MOMS) inflict this on other adults? These moms behave as if they wanted to be your friend, but then by golly, they're HELL-BENT on you loving their bratty, spoiled kid. I think these moms don't really want to have friends. They just want to have an AUDIENCE for their bratty kids.

Since I'm on a rant about adults that do this, here's a tiny list of these adults that aggravate me. Let me know if any of you out there agree with me on this:

-Parents that include their kids in everything, adult conversations, bring kids to your dinner that you’ve made very clear is a grown ups dinner, etc.

-Parents that allow their kids to interrupt conversations between them and another adult

-Parents that allow the kids to run and answer the phone every time and waste your time talking trash, when the reason you called is to talk to the adult, not entertain the kid

-Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations

-Parents that bring their kids into the office and don’t keep them from bugging the heck out of you

-Parents that stop a whole huge line at the supermarket or anywhere at all because they want their child to talk to the employee taking orders or checking out

-Parents that bring kids to your house and let them make a frikkin’ mess everywhere and touch every single thing, even BREAK your things.

-Parents that insist on their kids performing for you, and are seeking for you to applaud like a trained seal no matter how horrific the performance was

-Parents that go on for endless hours about their kids’ accomplishments

-Parents that side with their kids against teachers and, well, just about everybody

-Parents that let their kids behave and run like animals through stores

-Parents that behave as if their kid were God's answer to the world, and insist you acknowledge that

WAKE UP, PARENTS! STOP TRYING TO GET ME TO ADORE YOUR KIDS!

Okay, now that I got that out of my system, all I want to add is that I think treating kids like some sort of perfect beings, or royalty, and putting them first 24/7 is the perfect recipe for creating narcissistic and perhaps sociopathic adults.

[Robb]

1. Also, they need to stay off my grass.

THIS ball? It's mine now, little man.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. LOL! I'm with you there. These parents think our property belongs to their KIDS! nt

[Robb]

8. Children should be seen, but not heard.

They also have too many toys. And none of them can sit up straight long enough to stop squirming.

[Robb]

33. To add: sometimes they behave

At the promise of some ribbon candy.

[Warren DeMontague]

462. People are coming into your house without your permission?

Maybe you should call the cops, or invest in one of these:

[roguevalley]

259. I taught for 27 years and I wish I could relate to you all the parental bitching

I had to listen to in fifth grade about behavior not corrected young. This isn't about some old person bitching. This is the person they are talking about that someday will be taking care of you, doing something you need and if they don't give a shit then you will pay. Manners and good behavior transmitted through the reasoning and nonnarcissim of parents will matter. You will be the recepient of every dipshit parent who thought their kid was 'special'. Skoff if you want. Someday the ship comes in and we all pay for the fucking stupidity of way too many parents.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

267. You made a very good point. Parents of brats are often narcissistic,

obnoxious, self-absorbed, have a HUGE chip on their shoulder, and always think they (and their brats) are right, no matter who they hurt.

Many years ago, when I taught middle school, I found that kids who bullied other kids and behaved as if they'd been raised by wolves, often had parents who behaved the same way. I'd wager to say that oftentimes the behavior these kids exhibited was nothing more than mere emulation of the same behavior of the parents and the reassurance by their parents that their misbehavior simply rocked their world.

And you're right, they think their kids are incredibly special. In fact, they think their kids are entitled to beat up on other kids, destroy property, and do any damned thing they want.

[chervilant]

337. hmph

We already are...

Dubyah--I rest my case.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

426. W is an excellent example of a BRAT that grew up without anyone stopping his stupid behavior nt

[Dorian Gray]

360. Heh

[MineralMan]

3. Could you tell us how you really feel about spoiled children?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. LOL! I guess it showed? :) nt

[MineralMan]

12. This time of year is especially prone

to having proud parent inflict their children on us. On the other hand, my next door neighbors who have a 3 year old boy and a baby girl in arms, dropped by to drop off a tin of nice homemade cookies. The 3 year old is very polite and the baby gave me a big smile when I waggled my fingers at her. They're a lovely young couple, and their children are very pleasant to be around. The little boy sometimes wanders over when I'm working in the yard, and we always have a good conversation about whatever happens to interest him at the moment.

I like children. I don't like parents who turn their children into performing bears, though.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. :) I don't mind kids, but oh my gosh, there's nothing worse than a brat!

I'd rather have Chinese water torture!

[pnwmom]

181. I'd rather be around a bratty kid than a drunk adult.

To each his own.

[musicblind]

655. As someone who has worked at nightclubs and a sunday school class... I'll second that. n/t

[CoffeeCat]

318. I'm a mom...

...and I have a lot of mom friends. I live in a suburb (population 60,000) and most of the people who live
here are families with children. People flock here because of the nice schools. I volunteer in the schools,
know a lot of people and my kids have grown up playing with and hanging out with lots of kids in the
community and in the neighborhood.

I must know hundreds of kids and I have to say---I have NEVER met ONE child who fits your horrible description. Also,
I've never experienced the lethal combination you describe--child from hell and enabling parent from hell.

While I do agree that any child acting the way you describe--would be irritating and pathetic, I'm a bit mystified
because I've never experienced anything like that. Sure, people are not perfect and neither is any child. However,
what you describe sounds like something from a cartoon.

I guess I'm chiming in here, because I don't want childless people or single people who don't have kids
and aren't married--to think that a large numbers of children act this way. Or that most parents would
be so oblivious and enable such bratty behavior.

Most kids and parents, in my experience, are just decent families who care about each other and enjoy
spending time together.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[pnwmom]

327. I've been one for over 20 years and I agree -- the only child I've ever seen

who might have been considered a brat -- if you didn't know his diagnosis -- was a child with ADHD and autism. And those poor parents -- and their son -- were doing their level best.

[tavalon]

369. I have to say I agree with you

I've seen a few kids like the OP description but mostly kids are great. I often wonder just what we do to them to make them grow up into fucked up adults.

[onpatrol98]

377. I haven't seen it often, but I've seen it

But, it's never agitated me to this degree. Good grief. But, I have always attempted to remind my kids that not every adult likes kids. Not every teacher, honestly likes kids. I've met one that didn't. It was just a job, and not one she enjoyed.

As parents, we have to be careful about how we raise our children. I have an aunt who never had children, and who has never liked children. I don't even invite her to my house. My children are polite and well mannered. But, to be honest...she's really not a nice person.

Now, that I think about it. The only people I know that really don't like children...weren't very nice people. So, really, it may be they didn't like people, but especially children.

It makes sense.

Children are often the center of attention, whether you want them to be or not. Its a self centered period of life. But someone like my aunt ALWAYS wants to be the center of attention. So, she wouldn't appreciate sharing the spotlight. She's never left this period of life, I guess.

But, that list would work for her, altered a bit.

Stay off MY lawn. (that one is funny...she says it, but because she's mean, she has to say it to kids near her lawn...no one actually visits, and no one would dare lose a ball there. She would keep it.)

Now, SHE annoys me...

[AverageJoe90]

437. Not to mention the highly popular 'spoiled brat epidemic' meme circulating amongst the hard right.

Honestly, about the only truly bratty children I've seen, were either abused and/or neglected, and/or had truly assholish parents: If you & Sarah want a really good historical example, think of the white kids who threw a hissy fit in Little Rock when the National Guard helped ensure the enrollment of black kids back in '57. Now THOSE kids, were real spoiled brats.

[Odin2005]

541. IMO the number of rotten kids with rotten parents are greatly exaggerated.

Most of the kids I run into are hilarious, even when they are being a little naughty. I think "some" people think kids should be "seen and not heard", which is BS.

[JNelson6563]

591. Then you have been most fortunate.

Between my personal life and then having been in retail management over the years, OMG you have been living in some sort of Utopia many of us would gladly pay to get into.

One fine example is my niece. Her mom is extremely acquisitive and, of course so is the child now. For years that child would behave very badly, completely ruining events and the mother would sit there with a weird smile as if to say "Isn't she adorable?". Apparently it has been discovered that when a little girl tells strangers she is saving up for some thing or other, they tend to think it's cute and hand over a little change to help with the saving. How do I know this? Last summer I had her for a day and we had lots of errands to run. There wasn't a stranger she didn't pull that routine on. After the third solicitation I forbade her from doing it anymore while she was with me and then I had a talk with her mother the next morning about this trained monkey routine. Talk about setting that kid up for trouble! Oh you're saving up, little girl? Come over to my car, I have a bunch of money I can give you...

and that child is one of many I know who's parents (usually mom) has told them just once too often how very, very special they are.

When my kids were little I could have friends over for coffee and we could have discussions. My childless friends often marveled at how we could sit and talk without constant interruption and chaos.

In my retail experience, the calm, well behaved child was always the exception rather than the rule. You must live somewhere where the water has something very special in it or something.

Julie

[DevonRex]

180. You correctly identified the parents as the problem.

Children will always test limits and when given none they can cause havoc. It's not a good situation for anyone, especially the child. The child will grow up not knowing where the boundaries are between social and antisocial behavior.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

202. This is true. And kids only learn what they see, hear, are taught from their surroundings, and what

they are not corrected about. They are blank slates. The rest gets written on that slate by what they experience.

[HuckleB]

455. No, they are not blank slates.

Not by a long shot.

Genetics probably has far more to do with behavior than what any parent can do.

[Mr Dixon]

365. LOL

TOO FUNNY but yes i agree

[trumad]

5. Do you have kids?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. You caught me there. Nope. I chose at 20-ish to NOT have kids.

I don't want kids. Not my own, not adopted, not flown in by the stork. None.

[trumad]

21. I ask because sometimes having kids changes perceptions about how kids act.

I've always said that bad parents are worse than WMD's.

Imagine if Hitler and Saddam had great parents.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. True. Anyone can have kids. That's one incredibly scary thing! nt

[Ilsa]

252. Well, not everyone.

One lady I met that would have made a great parent was infertile. But she became a marvelous elementary school teacher.

[liberalhistorian]

48. If you don't have kids, then you really don't have

much room to talk. It's a lot easier to criticize parenting from the sidelines when you've never been a parent. And it's really, REALLY aggravating to those of us who ARE parents to hear such criticism from people who, frankly, don't know what the hell they're talking about because they've never had children.

And I'm sorry that we don't keep our children locked up in their rooms in our houses so that you and other child free adults can have the planet to yourselves.

[Confusious]

67. So, I have a child and I agree with her

There is a certain amount of politeness and self-disciple that should be taught. If you really love your kids you teach it. If they're just a thing to show, you don't.

Politeness and self-disciple are forms of respect, not only to themselves, but to others.

[pnwmom]

105. Did you read her whole post? She mixes up misbehavior and perfectly normal behavior

that many parents encourage -- like answering the phone, listening quietly to adults conversing, interacting with sales people behind the counter, etc.

If you really love your children you are going to teach them how to socialize in the world.

[Confusious]

130. I can think of a couple of cirumstances that would not be normal

Would you talk about sex in front of your kids? Personal things? My parents argued about money in front of me all the time. Made me VERY insecure about it. Not a conversation you want to have in front of kids.

Some kids answer the phone and go on and on and on, when the person is trying to say they want to speak to an adult.

Socializing is good, but "any and all" socializing is not good.

[pnwmom]

308. Of course there are circumstances where children don't belong.

But the OP was making blanket judgments which were not appropriate.

Some kids might take too long on the phone -- so do some adults. And some adults ask children questions that feel very nosy and intrusive. Should we write long rants about spoiled adults?

[Confusious]

546. Your post makes no sense

We write long rants about spoiled adults all the time around here.

Any Republican is a perfect example.

In 1989, Bruce McIntosh coined the term the "spoiled child syndrome".[1] The syndrome is characterized by "excessive, self-centered, and immature behavior". It includes lack of consideration for other people, recurrent temper tantrums, an inability to handle the delay of gratification, demands for having one's own way, obstructiveness, and manipulation.[5] McIntosh attributed the syndrome to "the failure of parents to enforce consistent, age-appropriate limits", but others, such as Aylward, note that temperament is probably a contributory factor.[6]

[emcguffie]

648. I'm not sure what my point is. but --

I have a daughter. SHe is now 18. She is very much her own person. And she was a very difficult child. She seemed to be spoiled -- she is an only child and probably is spoiled, to a degree --and she was incredibly stubborn. No "time out" ever worked on her. On a couple of occasions I locked her or us into a room until she stopped crying, and she just never stopped. It would go on for hours. Hours. She never would give in, never stop crying.

Now, she's 18, and she apologizes for the way she used to be. She says, "One day I realized what a brat I was. I'm so sorry for what I put you through!"

Now, where did she get that? From us? Did she just not hear us for those years? Were we terrible parents? Did she just mature on her own? I don't know.

But she was always completely her own person.

I would say, still, today, you cannot make her do anything she doesn't want to or doesn't agree to, in principle, in some way. She spends hours on Reddit, arguing with "Christians" -- she is an avowed atheist and loves Richard Dawkins; not something she learned from me. Tonight, we were visited by a couple of Mormons who brought her a Bible and a Book of Mormon, because she wanted those books, so she could read them and refer to them. She stood in the door and talked to them for hours. They are coming back to stand in the door for hours more on Sunday! She enjoys the discussion with someone she disagrees with!

Sorry, I've gone on for too long. There's that doting parent. But I don't think you can just plop kids down into one box or another, or into this category or that. They may seem spoiled and it may be that they are determined. Or it may be the opposite, I suppose. My daughter has simply always been the most determined, single-minded, immovable human I have ever known. And now she is more mature than she was, and is very sorry about the trouble she caused. But she is still quite single-minded, only now she writes philosophy essays that I cannot imagine ever writing, much less in high school. She just takes everything apart down to the last little shred of whatever....

Yeah, she was very, very difficult, and frequently quite obnoxious. And now she is very much a fully formed individual with a mind of her own.

I think such a person at a very young age might indeed be kind of obnoxious.

[Maraya1969]

150. That was one part I did not understand. When I was young

, (not a little little kid but in middle school and high school) I would come home from school and sometimes my mother would be having coffee with one of the neighbors. I liked to sit at the table and listen to them talk. I didn't jump in the conversation or be obnoxious or anything. It never occurred to me that her friend might not have wanted me there.

But then again she was over after school hours what did she expect? I'm supposed to come home and go straight to my room because my mother has a friend over?

[pnwmom]

306. It never bothered me when my friends' children thought our conversation was interesting enough

to listen to.

In fact, I found it flattering. And half of the time we were discussing politics and I was especially glad they were listening!

[Dorian Gray]

361. Exactly

that complaint is a bit of a head scratcher.

[uppityperson]

108. "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations " is ok with you? Since you

said you agree with her, I can only assume that "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations" somehow doesn't teach "politeness and self-disciple"

[Confusious]

132. Sometimes conversations should only be between adults

I know from experience. I look at what my parents did, and do the opposite, on everything.

[uppityperson]

134. I doubt "on everything" but agree, we do learn from our parent's mistakes

and then we copy some and make our own.

[Confusious]

136. I was being hyperbolic

But I did have some bad parents. Years of therapy proved that.

I should add, even though he wasn't a good parent, I love my dad. He tries.

My stepmother, I don't hate her anymore, she admitted that she made my childhood a hell.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

204. I agree. There are adults that just don't understand why everyone is avoiding them, and it's

because they insist that other adults MUST partake in their kids' conversation as if the kids were adults, and join in the babysitting activity. Other adults didn't have the kids, and should not be forced to become part of the babysitting, nor obligated to have a conversation first with the kid that answers the phone, before they may be allowed to talk to the person they called for.

[pnwmom]

336. I think the kid who bothers to answer the phone -- rather than sending the adults

straight to voice mail -- should be appreciated, not condemned.

And if you are part of a group that includes parents and children, then conversing with children as people does not constitute babysitting. It's part of being a polite and caring human being.

[HuckleB]

459. No adult should be forced to participate in the upbringing of other kids.

On the other hand, I find adults that feel they have no duty to society, including the upbringing of the next generation, to be extremely annoying. They have chosen to disengage from the full community. There is nothing positive about that.

[CreekDog]

240. Okay, but on Christmas?

I mean jeez, it sounds like he was the only child at the dinner.

Was he supposed to sit alone at the kids table?

[Confusious]

254. To little information to determine

Whether it was a dinner, a family function, or whether it was the only child there.

[pnwmom]

338. We do know it was Christmas, and what loving parent would leave their child

home with a sitter at Christmas? And where would he find a sitter, if he wanted to?

[Confusious]

545. I would have stayed home as a kid

You seem to be making all sort of assumptions.

If I made the same assumptions, based on my family, Christmas eve day was the day to spend with family. Christmas day was the day to play with all the toys Santa brought, so I didn't want to go anywhere, and if I was, it was against my will.

[CreekDog]

353. ah if it wasn't dinner that would change things?

and it was Christmas.

[Confusious]

544. And?

You seem to be making all sort of assumptions.

If I made the same assumptions, based on my family, Christmas eve day was the day to spend with family. Christmas day was the day to play with all the toys Santa brought, so I didn't want to go anywhere, and if I was, it was against my will because I wanted to play with my new toys.

[pnwmom]

562. Clearly THIS family with THIS child didn't do that.

So what difference does it make that your parents might have left you with a babysitter?

But where did they find one?

[Confusious]

575. My father probably would have stayed home

nowhere does it say that the dad was there.

Why are you so invested in defending spoiled brats?

[pnwmom]

579. I'm not. I'm invested in defending parents who do normal things

like letting their children answer the phone, talk to checkers at the supermarket, or listen to adults having conversations. The OP swept up a lot of normal childhood socialization in her vehement list of complaints about "spoiled" children.

She also acted like "brats" are a major problem in the world, while I rarely run into them. I am much more concerned about children like this little girl:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57349017/slain-ind-girls-grandfather-was-sex-offender/

Or this little girl:

http://bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view/2011_1228worst_feared_for_maine_tot_experts_cops_likely_focusing_on_foul_play

Or the children in this family:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-rt-texas-bodies-update-2n1e7bq09d-20111227,0,6140723.story

[pnwmom]

316. The OP implied that children are spoiled who EVER do that. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

200. I agree completely. nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

68. I think her OP was pretty clear about the difference between parents in general and rude ones

If that's how you're parenting your kid off that checklist, then no, I really don't want to be around you or your kids.

[uppityperson]

90. "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations" is about a rude child?

If I allow my child to sit quietly and listen to adult conversations, you don't want to be around me or my kids? The feeling is probably mutual.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

158. I assumed "adult conversations" would be something about someone having a drinking problem....

....or getting a divorce or something like that. You wouldn't let your kid sit in on that, would you?

[uppityperson]

160. I assumed "adult conversations" were conversations between adults. In which case I'd let my

kid sit in and learn about how adults converse and about the topic. Of course I didn't let me kid sit in on everything, but I took that as adult conversations, between adults.

Funny how we assume different things and see it very differently, isn't it? (serious, not snark)

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

164. There's nothing wrong as long as those conversations don't take a dark turn

Maybe the fact that my parents were older and generally avoided unpleasent topics with company when I grew up was the difference. When the conversation turned to more serious family matters, they either excused themselves elsewhere, or had me go outside or to my room.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

401. Exactly. And if a child insists on remaining with the adults, the adults are held to a child

audience conversation regardless of what they wish to talk about.

[eridani]

198. The rule at our house was "Keep quiet unless you know something about the subject."

That eliminated most extraneous comments, and was motivation to learn more about things we heard being discussed.

[kwassa]

234. The problem is that many think they know something when they don't know a thing.

Such a rule would never apply to them, and they talk without ceasing.

[11 Bravo]

470. Agreed, (and that would eliminate some on this thread from speaking of children.)

[CreekDog]

241. I'm guessing the kid didn't want to hear her interpretation of the Kama Sutra either

[onion belt]

436. Really? Even if the conversation was for adults, like your friend's sex life issues?

Do you ever expect your child to entertain herself or are you two attached to the hip?

[uppityperson]

469. Not gonna argue with a poster who's posting privl has been revoked. Esp not one

who either hasn't or can't read the whole subthread.

[pnwmom]

184. I don't think you read her checklist carefully. Not all her points are reasonable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=72473

[pnwmom]

339. Then the feeling is mutual. I don't want to be around a person who thinks children

shouldn't listen quietly to adults, or answer the phone in their own homes, or talk to checkers in the store.

[ThomThom]

75. well the fact that the people without kids have to deal with your kids

and put up with your kids in public places gives us every right to speak-up
please teach your kids manors, respect, and where the proper place for loud voices and running around are appropriate I have rights too

[MattBaggins]

125. Childless people are more oft than not

rude arrogant people who think the world revolves around them and any disturbance is a personal affront to their pearl clutching sensibilities.

Seriously; idiot parents or haughty childess people. Which group is more insufferable and needs to get over themselves more?

[distantearlywarning]

129. Idiot parents.

At least the childless don't generally ruin my dinners in nice restaurants. The world revolves around them QUIETLY at the next table.

[uppityperson]

153. they've ruined dinners for me and your logic has a big hole in it

First off, I've had dinner spoiled by adults who insist on talking on cell phone, and/or who are drunk and obnoxious.

Your logic has a hole in that you emphasize "QUIETLY". A child sitting "QUIETLY" won't ruin your dinner any more than an adult sitting "QUIETLY" will. But to imply that all adults sit "QUIETLY" while children never do, that is a logic hole.

[distantearlywarning]

156. Not true.

The definition of "idiot parent" in this thread is a parent who lets their child be noisily and badly behaved in public. If the child was sitting quietly, then we wouldn't be talking about idiot parents anymore, we would be talking about non-idiot parents (because they have a nicely behaved child).

On the other hand, the insufferably child-free are presumably being quietly insufferable over there at their child-free table.

Hf the adult in question happens to be noisily talking on a cell phone then it no longer matters what their parental status is, they become idiot adults in general. And for the record, I don't like those either and think they also need to stay at home until they can learn some manners.

Or to sum it up: SHUT THE FUCK UP IN NICE RESTAURANTS! (This is really not as difficult a concept as people on DU always seem to think it is...)

[uppityperson]

157. "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations" is noisily, badly behaved

in public? Huh.

"the insufferably child-free are presumably being quietly insufferable over there at their child-free table" is the problem. Why presume that? Just as easy to presume they are arguing loudly, talking on cell phones, telling each other rude and bigotted stories, are drunk, etc. I like your last paragraph, it sums it up indeed.

[distantearlywarning]

163. You didn't read my post.

If someone

of any age

is being noisy in a restaurant, they need to go home until they can figure out how to be better behaved. If the person in question is a child, then the parent who is responsible for them needs to take them home and work with them on that behavior (because that is what parents do).

If we are talking about an adult who is behaving badly, it no longer matters whether they are child-free or not. They are simply badly behaved.

The original post asked whether idiot parents or child-free people were worse, not because the child-free have a tendency to talk noisily on cell phones, but because they are insufferable. Whereas idiot parents, by the definition of this thread, are accompanied by noisy children.

Child-free = may or may not be noisy, but only insufferable arrogance is part of the definition, not noise
Idiot parents = by definition noisy

Since I hate noise, and I don't give a damn whether someone is arrogant as long as it is done at someone else's table, I voted for idiot parents. But if we want to expand the taxonomy to include the "noisy childfree" and "non-idiot parents", then my ranking would be as follows, from best to worst:

1. Non-idiot parents and their well-behaved children (I like to see happy well-behaved children at restaurants)
2. The insufferably arrogant but quiet child-free (who cares if they're assholes as long as they're quiet over there where I don't have to hear about it)
3. Noisy child-free (at least you can sometimes tell them to simmer down without being accused of being Hitler The Child-Hater)
4. Idiot parents and their screaming, running-around children (it's already all been said by the OP)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

207. I'd forgotten all about how some parents allowed their kids to ruin an eating-out experience for

other people. That's a huge topic! One pays to eat out and some parents think it's adorable to have their kids ruin the thing for others. I've even seen parents of kids like this smile as if to say, "Oh aren't they something!?" Ahem!

[HuckleB]

549. Yes, but no one is posting repeated OPs about rude adults.

They do so about a supposed rash of rude kids.

The hypocrisy is apparent.

[pnwmom]

330. Not all children misbehave at restaurants, and not all adults do, either.

Only some adults get drunk and stumble around or talk loudly on their cell phones during dinner.

[irisblue]

149. idiot parents

are more insufferable, and i say this as a foster mom to a wonderful , but occasionally challanging 7 year old. her mother is in and out of the county jail, and the girl was born in the womens' prison. i knew the grandmother from AA meetings....bad parenting echos down the generations.

[liberalhistorian]

173. Haughty childless people, of course.

Too many seem to think that people are born as full adults and that they shouldn't have to suffer the presence of anyone under 20, never mind that they're not the only people in the world and that SOMEONE has to be a child so that they can grow up and serve the scoffers in their old age.

Now, that's not to say that idiot parents aren't annoying, far from it. But given a choice I'll take them any day. At least they understand more what it's like to have children and be a parent, whereas childless people seem to think it's the easiest job in the world and have no fucking clue what they're talking about. That sure doesn't stop them from criticizing or advising, though.

[Missy Vixen]

179. I'm your worst nightmare

>At least they understand more what it's like to have children and be a parent, whereas childless people seem to think it's the easiest job in the world and have no fucking clue what they're talking about. That sure doesn't stop them from criticizing or advising, though.<

I was a nanny for over ten years. As a result of my experiences, I chose not to have children. I KNOW what it's like to deal with a child 24x7. You bet I'm going to speak up when someone else's child is doing something that's either injurious to me or to my property, and their "parent" is completely oblivious.

YOU have no idea what it's like to deal with the "well-meaning" prying of family and friends over one's reproductive status, or lack of it. It's frankly none of your business, but I could write a book on the crap we've fielded over the years: "It's different when they're your own," "I didn't know what love was until I had a baybeeeeee," "You'll never understand what it is to be a parent." Uh, I understood enough to choose NOT to undertake it. You'd best respect my choice in this matter as much as you demand respect of your own.

It's interesting that you believe we have no business "criticizing or advising" when we are essentially subsidizing a very expensive, private hobby.

[liberalhistorian]

183. If you consider children a "hobby" then it's best that you don't

have them. And yes, it really IS different when they're your own and not someone else's for whom you're a glorified babysitter.

And you are not subsidizing SHIT. Those children will grow up to be your doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, customer service reps, store clerks, contractors you call when you have a maintenance emergency, workers whose social security and medicare payments help subsidize YOUR ss and medicare, workers whose taxes help subsidize YOUR services, the paramedics and firefighters you'll call in the middle of the night with a fire or medical emergency, the cops you'll call when your house is being broken into and who'll risk their lives to keep YOURS safe, the nursing home workers who'll keep you comfortable in your last days, etc., etc., etc., etc. You don't live in a fucking vacuum. It will get to a point in your life where former children will be subsidizing YOU. The adults who serve you now were once children themselves that SOMEONE had to raise and they weren't a fucking "hobby."

Now, I will totally agree that it is wrong, wrong, wrong for people to get on the case of others for making a very personal decision not to have children, one they have every right to make and every right to live free from judgment and prying. I also got that shit before I had my son and it always amazed me how people who weren't even close to me (let alone family and friends) felt perfectly free and justified to stick their noses in private business. But it seems to me that those who've made the choice not to have children, while they complain about being judged, see nothing wrong with judging others for choosing to be parents. And that's bullshit.

[Paladin]

247. Bravo! Well Said, LibHist. (n/t)

[uppityperson]

256. thank you, very good.

[Missy Vixen]

424. Nice to know you have no respect for those who care for your child

Have you let them know this? I'm sure they'd be dazzled.

>you're a glorified babysitter<

I'm fairly sure I had to have many more certifications and much more training to take care of someone else's children than you did before you just happened to have one. Let's see here: CPR and first aid classes, early childhood education classes, had to pass both state and federal background checks, for starters. I also provided more than the standard number of personal and professional references. It seems that most parents demand a higher standard of care than they are willing to provide themselves as well.

With the advent of "nanny cams", one can be videotaped or monitored without his or her consent as well.

>The adults who serve you now were once children themselves that SOMEONE had to raise and they weren't a fucking "hobby."<

I've seen an amazing number of people who believe that their parenting skills are beyond reproach, despite evidence to the contrary. They also want me to pay to indulge a whim they have little or no training or skill at. Considering the fact we're currently observing the fallout in our own family from a completely inept adult attempting to parent, "hobby" isn't far off the mark.

[onpatrol98]

568. Bravo!

It sounds like what we have is a group of spoiled brat adults.

[Spazito]

602. Well said!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

209. Thanks! Maybe parents of ill-behaved kids are the most angry at those of us who refused to have

kids. Who knows.

[eridani]

210. Private hobby? Raising the next generation to be functioning adults is everyone's business

Directly or indirectly.

[distantearlywarning]

232. I was a nanny also.

And the experience was what cemented my desire to not ever have children of my own. One woman in particular I worked for was extremely permissive and weak-willed with her three young boys and as a result the youngest was quite spoiled and badly behaved. Interestingly, he always behaved for me when she wasn't around, but wow, was it ever embarrassing to be in public with this family when they were all together. That kid knew exactly how to manipulate mom into making sure the world revolved around him. I always wonder what happened to him - I worried at the time that he would grow up into a horrible adult.

[CreekDog]

243. right, you don't believe in subsidies --you will refuse Medicare, correct?

you will repay the cost associated with any time you spent in public education, be it as school-aged or in state colleges or universities.

and Social Security --can't have that either.

all these kids you don't want to subsidize will be paying for these things unless you give them up.

fair is fair.

are you willing to walk the walk or will you be a hypocrite?

[pnwmom]

310. Who do you think will be paying for your Social Security? Our children.

They're no hobby; they're our future.

[SomethingFishy]

612. Subsidizing an expensive hobby?

Um, no one is "subsidizing" my children, and if you think creating a new life as a hobby then we should all be thankful you have decided to remain childless.

[Missy Vixen]

635. Tax deductions.

If you're taking tax deductions for your children, we're paying for it, whether you like it or not.

Furthermore, the parents who insist they had kids to "save humanity" are fooling themselves.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

208. Not at all. I understand childhood is not adulthood, but to inflict bad child behavior on other

adults, who are not the parents of the child, is just wrong.

I honestly believe the parents of ill-behaved kids often find it quite amusing when their child is disturbing others' good time. Perhaps it makes them feel better to retaliate that way in exchange for having to live enduring their own ill-behaved child 24/7 or something.

[Fool Count]

375. Well said. I would also add that they ("idiot parents") don't usually post mindless

narcissistic rants on DU. More than can be said about haughty childless people, apparently.

[fishwax]

255. wow, that's not consistent with my experience at all

"Childless people are more oft than not rude arrogant people who think the world revolves around them and any disturbance is a personal affront to their pearl clutching sensibilities."

A rather absurd generalization.

[ThomThom]

391. rude is rude

standing up for one's self is not necessarily rude (but can be depends on how it is done)
tolerance can go only so far and then something must change, asking people nicely to respect others rights and positions is a first step
taking punitive action next

This discussion has gone pretty much the same as the one a while back about children being refused service in restaurants.
Saying I am rude, arrogant and selfish is not helpful to the discussion because I am none of those things. I have been very tolerant even after repeated rudeness on the part of others.

[valerief]

654. Idiot parents with their bratty mini mes. nt

[pnwmom]

185. She's also complaining about kids in their own homes.

For example, helping their parents by answering the telephone, or quietly listening while adults talk.

[Abin Sur]

83. Is anyone (seriously) asking you to keep your children locked up?

I would simply ask that you control your children in public and keep them from being disruptive. If they do start throwing a tantrum or acting up while in public, please remove them from the situation so we aren't inflicted with their behavior.

What in the world is wrong with that?

[pintobean]

89. You could choose to

not expose yourself to the public. Problem solved.

[Abin Sur]

106. So if someone's brat is screaming his head off in a restaurant, *I* should leave?

[MattBaggins]

128. If you can not deal with the realities of society

perhaps that would be an acceptable choice.

[HuckleB]

516. Since it's more likely that you'll find loud, obnoxious adults interrupting your quiet dinner ...

... perhaps you should leave until you get some perspective.

[distantearlywarning]

122. Wow.

No wonder so many people are disgusted with parents and children. The world does not revolve around you or your offspring. Shocking but true.

[pintobean]

148. I think you missed the point.

See Matt's post above yours.

[distantearlywarning]

159. The realities of society

Some of them need to be changed, not just "put up with".

I personally find it extremely offensive that anyone would suggest that the appropriate solution for badly behaved _anyone_ in public is for the target of the bad behavior to simply stay home while the badly behaved offender continues acting as they please. In fact, from my perspective, that is THE most offensive statement in this thread - so selfish and arrogant. That sentiment pretty much sums up EVERYTHING that is wrong with American culture today. Disgusting.

[pintobean]

165. I was being facetious.

That's why I included the smiley.

Even if I had been serious, it wouldn't justify your personal attacks. I suggest you edit those out, before someone alerts.

[distantearlywarning]

167. Nothing personal about it.

It's merely my opinion that that sentiment and others like it are a very problematic part of American society.

[distantearlywarning]

169. Ah, I see.

After re-reading this whole section of the thread, I realize that you were joking. But all the posters who responded to you took you seriously, and one of them agreed with your (facetious) sentiment. I'm glad you don't actually feel that way. It disturbs me that someone else does, though.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

211. Well put! Thanks. nt

[pnwmom]

341. And the world doesn't revolve around single people who dislike children.

Who insist that children shouldn't answer the phone or talk to adults.

[Luminous Animal]

170. I agree for the most part but I do not expect parents

to remove their children from public transportation.

[Amaril]

216. I have two children.........

.......and I ABSOLUTELY agree with her.

There were many, MANY occasions, when mine were little and prone to being randomly possessed by demons, that I scooped them up and left where ever we were -- restaurants, theaters, concerts, etc. It isn't the fault of the children -- kids are a volatile combination of energy, curiosity and joy housed inside frail skin & bone that cannot possibly keep them contained.............BUT, they do NOT need to run amok, inflicting havoc and misery on every one else in sight.

[Sheepshank]

249. Strange if/then scenario

I did have children..eventually. After 15 years of marriage we had our first child. I've lived both with and without kids...and my perception and frustration over parents who coddle and raise brats remained unchanged. I agree with the OP.

I will 'give' you one thing though...my ability to see this as a parenting problem rather that an issue with the child has morphed.

[Paladin]

135. Thank You For Your Decision To Not Have Children. It Was Obviously The Correct One. (n/t)

[liberalhistorian]

174. LOL,

no kidding. Truest statement yet.

[brewens]

301. The 'ol "do you have any kids" shoot down doesn't fly

with me. I don't have kids but I was one. I remember exactly how my brother, sister and I behaved and what my parents did to accomplish that.

I see what some parents do right and how other screw it up. I do not have to have my own kids to understand. I don't have kids because of extreme caution and a little luck when I was younger.

I could say that not having kids allows me to actually observe other situations more objectively. I'm also and expert grampa. They are my girlfriends grand kids but I handle them great. The two year old boy that is an absolute demon at home is a perfect young gentleman around me. I pay attention to him, hear him and we have a great time. He doesn't have to act up to get attention around us like he does at home. His parents pay more attention to their tv and computers than they do their kids.

[helderheid]

381. Thank God.

[Eliminator]

54. Not relevant

Try again.

[trumad]

58. Very relevant.

Resistance to kid behavior is much greater if you have kids.

[pnwmom]

103. You're right. The behavior of other parents' children

is usually of little concern to me. My level of tolerance is very high.

When my own children were small, I could feel stress managing them -- but other people's children were their problem!

[boston bean]

6. Actually these kids are not spoiled

They are missing the one thing that would really make them happy.

A parent who loves them enough to not try and pawn them off on others.

And a parent who loves them enough to discipline them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. True. Maybe these kids drive these parents so insane that's why they're pawning them off on

other people! I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

[pipi_k]

99. Not to get all

"Pop psychology" or anything, but I've heard many times that parents who allow their children to act like brats and don't say anything to them are likely allowing their kids to act out their (the parents') own issues.

It's like the parents are reliving their own childhoods where they weren't allowed to do a lot of what they now are allowing their kids to do...

Sort of a backhanded "fuck you" to their own parents or Society in general.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

212. You're right. I think parents of bratty kids who spoil them, are doing a 'fuck you' to the world.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Jazzgirl]

7. I'm not quite sure how you REALLY feel about these children.

Can you be more explicit?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. LOL! I was a bit 'emotive' about this :) nt

[Ineeda]

10. Although I generally like kids

I've experienced spawn-of-satan behavior from one in particular, and as you say, Mom looked on adoringly as the brat damaged my stuff: while my two were in the kitchen snacking on brownies with this child and her sister, the bad seed brought hers into the living room where the adults were socializing. Naturally, brownie fragments were dropped, which is bad enough, but then she ground it into my days-old pastel carpeting and pale velvet upholstery. Another time she pressed chewed gum into my kid's hair, resulting in an unpleasant peanut-butter head massage for my daughter. (which, by the way, is the only remedy that I know of to get gum out of hair.)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. Aaah, I see you've met the spawn of Satan too. Hmm... spawn gets around!

Did you say anything to the mother? I'm wondering if there's a way to break it to these moms that their kids are slightly demonic, thanks to them.

[jberryhill]

17. Very simple

Don't have them in your home.

[DesertRat]

42. And excuse yourself if you're someplace where the parents are bragging.

Simple indeed.

[Ineeda]

28. I did, and Mom looked at me with a blank expression

as if she didn't understand what the problem was. Another time I had put moth balls around some shrubs to deter cats from urinating on them and killing them. I warned this mom on the off-chance her kid couldn't figure out that bad-smelling things on the ground under shrubbery was not consumable. Next thing I know, the mom calls me after a trip to the emergency room, rather upset with ME! I've got lots of examples, but at the time we lived in suburbia and this family was next door. All the neighborhood kids played together, so it was impossible to avoid spawn-girl (or her mom).

[tridim]

23. Peanut-butter gets out PB? Who knew?

[Ineeda]

29. Sorry. Mis-typing. No, PB gets out chewing gum. I think it's the oil or something.

[jberryhill]

14. You need to stop socializing with parents

"Yesterday I had to spend some time with one of these kids"

No, you didn't. You spent time with them incident to entirely voluntary social behavior of some kind, but you do not take responsibility for your choices.

Putting aside the fact that yesterday was a holiday which is viewed by some, rightly or wrongly, as a day specifically for being indulgent toward children, you can't claim you didn't know what you were getting into with your voluntary social engagement.

This power of "aggravation" is something only you can give to others. Only you are responsible for how you feel.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. So my choice is to refuse to invite Brat's parents? nt

[jberryhill]

20. That is correct

Stop being a victim of your own social choices.

[liberalhistorian]

50. Yes, that is your choice. You knew

that they were parents and that it was Christmas, for God's sake, did you think they weren't going to want to be with their own children on Christmas, of all days? Given your posting history about children, I think you just want an excuse to complain yet again about children and parents.

For many people who don't have children, everything they do irritates them and "gets on their nerves." They unrealistically expect children to sit primly and properly and quietly for hours at a time and not give any sign that they exist. And they certainly have no idea what it's like to be a parent, but that doesn't stop them from criticizing and giving "advice."

I had child-free friends who would invite me over for holidays but who said it was "adults only" and during the day, not in the evening when most children would be in bed. They had the right to make such an invitation and I had the right to refuse it, which I did, because I wanted to spend the holiday with my own son. They couldn't understand why I'd refuse or why I'd want to be with my own child on a freaking holiday, or why their other friends who were parents refused.

[Eliminator]

60. Not that simple

You don't know details of the OP's situation. Sometimes you are forced to invite people you would rather not invite. Maybe they're connected by family in some way, maybe it would be awkward to invite one friend but not another who is a friend of a friend, etcetera. The point is it's not a simple matter of just not inviting someone to solve the problem of them being shitty parents with bratty kids.

[liberalhistorian]

63. Sorry, but when it comes to friends and holidays,

people DO have the choice of whom to invite. No one is "forced" to invite any friend. And we only have HER word that they were shitty parents with bratty kids. To many people without kids, ALL kids are brats. BTDT.

[AverageJoe90]

438. "To many people without kids, ALL kids are brats." Or most of those on the hard right.

[jberryhill]

140. If she is being forced against her will, call the police!

Otherwise, you are saying that she has made a trade-off between not inviting them or having to tolerate that they bring children.

Inviting a parent to something on Christmas, and expecting that parent to leave the kids with someone on that day suggests that this person expects to be held in higher regard by those social acquaintances than they hold their own children. That's not going to happen.

As a young parent, I was perfectly able to understand that if others held social events for adults only, then I wouldn't be going if there was no childcare option available. At mixed age events, if I had one or more children with me, I was of course not going to be among the last guests lingering over drinks late into the evening, and would generally make it a short visit. But issuing an adults only invitation is perfectly fine.

If persons are entering your home without your permission, the number to call is 911.

[Fawke Em]

72. As a parent, I wish I could independently recommend this post.

The bigotry I've seen toward children in this thread is astonishing.

Don't want kids, fine. Don't force the rest of us to conform to your belief system. That's not "democratic" OR "liberal."

And the OP did have choices.

[pnwmom]

95. Bigotry toward children is the only kind of bigotry acceptable here.

I've seen it here often.

[MattBaggins]

133. It's the only one actively encouraged on DU

[HuckleB]

526. Indeed.

It seems bizarre, but, oh well. I'm going off to enjoy the rest of my holiday week.

[musicblind]

656. I think you worded it well. A lot of this thread comes off as bigotry towards children.

I guess ageism can only exist one way.

After all, you're not human until you turn 18.

[FirstLight]

142. well said

what gets me is that there seems to be some disconnect between 'bratty kids' and 'normal child behavior'

yes, kids can get rowdy, a good parent handles it

yes, sometimes many of us parents only have stories or anecdotes that involve our children, they live with us and are a part of our lives, duh

yes, kids sometimes want to perform something for the group, it is part of that childlike abandon and should be nutured. (my son wanted to sing his christmas song for grandma last night, as things were winding down, my mom and BIL were watching the TV, he waited for commercial and asked his uncle to mute the tv for a minute, sang his song, gave a hug and was off... nothing wrong with that!)

there's so many things i can point out, but it seems like those who don't have kids and post here would rather see it all as awful behavior on the part of parents and kids.

I would suggest those who have issues with folks like this to seek friends who can accommodate their lives better. Yes, we do have times where certain friends drift because of life and family choices. It's part of life. instead of being so angry, perhaps look at what it is about your friends choices (or is it just the kids) really upset you. then take action to solve it in your own head...

[pnwmom]

322. I think you might enjoy this story, liberalhistorian.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=73866

[liberalhistorian]

414. Oh, my, LOL!

See, my family wouldn't have put up with that. We don't put up with misbehavior or brattiness from the children, of course, and remove them if they're causing a problem for everyone else, but we also don't put up with people who get bent out of shape over every little thing a child does and who make ridiculous rules like that. We would have agreed that the woman had the right to make her own rules in the house, but we then would have had the gathering somewhere else. She would have been free to do that and we would have been free to decline.

Then again, I find it very hard to be around people who don't like children or animals. A lot of the time (not always, certainly, but enough times) they're tightly wound and controlling.

[pnwmom]

456. It was a perfectly nice summer day, so I didn't mind being outside

and I just made an executive decision that she really would prefer my son use the bathroom inside, no matter how adamant she'd been about children staying out.

I would have loved to never see her ever, anywhere, but the problem is that she was married to someone very dear to my husband. So I did what I had to to get along.

[xxqqqzme]

119. My house was on a corner across the

street from an elementary school. The parents, sitting waiting for school to dismiss, were far more destructive than any of their kids. Cigarette butts, empty soft drink (occasionally a beer) cans, coffee take out... were regularly dumped on the lawn. A lunch box would be cleared of the contents before driving away. These parents were w/o shame. Is it any wonder their kids have no respect for others after watching the actions of their primary role models?

[lpbk2713]

19. I'm a grandpa. That's my job.

Trust me. I know my boundaries.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. I get it perfectly when grandpas spoil their grandkids. You're right, spoiling is a grandpa's job

But a MOM's? Nope. These moms are just... well, incredibly aggravating!! They shape their kids into little monsters.

[uppityperson]

88. Were you "spoiled"? Did you/your mom engage in any of those behaviours?

[onpatrol98]

570. Sounds a wee bit spoiled to me...

Just a wee bit, self centered and self absorbed. Maybe my friends are just good parents. I truly enjoy their kids. I like the performances. When they answer the phone, I do entertain and listen to them until mom comes to the phone. They can play ball in my yard. And, I have seen bratty kids turn into nice adults...and a few quiet ones I wouldn't trust alone with my cat. Kids are kids. You never quite know how they'll turn out. But, I enjoy them. Think of the innocence of the children that may have encountered self absorbed adults without ever realizing the seething that existed inside of them because...wait for it, they answered a phone or weren't quiet enough.

Give me spoiled kids over spoiled adults any day. I can avoid spoiled children. Spoiled adults are EVERYWHERE. They're at work, they blog, they drive cars while texting, they cheat on their spouses, they rant about nonessential stuff...100 times worse than kids.

[tammywammy]

25. I don't usually see a lot of kids like you're describing, but I did last Thursday

I unfortunately had to attend a funeral last Thursday of an uncle whom I didn't know very well. Anywho, my 25-year old cousin brought her 3-year old daughter. It was inappropriate. She was coloring, screaming, running around, etc during the funeral service. I was talking to my dad and apparently the girl's father usually looks after her during the day. I didn't understand why my cousin brought her. She's not old enough to understand what's going on, was disruptive to the event in that 4 adults were having to help "entertain" her during the service. If she had sat there quietly coloring that would be one thing, but the child threw her colors around.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. Yes, I don't get why these parents insist that kids be in inappropriate settings...

or push them into doing inappropriate things for their age.

And those that cause other adults to waste their time only to have their kid as center stage, oh my goodness. Makes me a bit crazy.

[pnwmom]

315. On Christmas Day, a child's "appropriate place" is with her parents. If you want the parents,

you're going to have to put up with the kids. Hire a babysitter to watch them in another room -- if you can find one on Christmas.

[jberryhill]

66. Some people think a funeral is a family event?

It is the deceased who has inconvenienced everyone.

[tammywammy]

69. For a 2 or 3 year old?

It would be one thing if the child hadn't been disruptive, but she was. She screamed, she threw things, she ran around. Sorry, that's inappropriate. There was plenty of family time after the actual funeral.

[jberryhill]

76. Yes

This was the child of a cousin of "an uncle I didn't know very well". We are talking about a grandchild of the deceased, yes?

When a child is disruptive, and won't settle down, the parent should remove the child to the lobby or whatever.

But attendance at the ritual of passage of dead kin is engrained in us from the earliest stone age tribes, and some still see it that way.

It is also a fair bet that others in attendance of the "uncle I didn't know very well" may have more of an affectionate familial set of relationships in which they are all involved in the raising of that child.

[tammywammy]

80. I won't get into the family relationship details

But I will note that this was a step-grandchild and that the deceased did not have a hand in raising her.

My point was that the child WAS disruptive during the service. That's what I have an issue with. If she had been quiet then it would have been a non-issue, but she wasn't. She threw things, screamed, ran around, etc. I don't blame the child, it's the parent's fault.

[jberryhill]

82. You need to find those knives from the "Omen"

I always bring a dagger to church services like that.

If a kid acts demon possessed, I offer the dagger to the parent, just in case.

That usually settles them down.

[polly7]

121. It would have been a sign of respect to the deceased and rest of the

family to go outside or out to the lobby with the child. Maybe she thought he / she would behave well but they were tired, hungry or bored ... sometimes just a little common sense goes a long way.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

213. Exactly. It would be incredibly disrespectful to have a child running, playing, screaming while the

bereaved are inconsolably weeping and sad. Beyond rude. Just plain mean.

[jberryhill]

235. Inconsolable Weeping is not an appropriate adult behavior at funerals either

No, you don't go to a funeral to weep inconsolably, wail, ululate, fire guns in the air, or get into a drunken fight with your brother about who broke mom's heart.

Okay, wait, you can fire guns in the air if it is a military funeral.

Do we want to talk about annoying divorcès and funerals?

[polly7]

295. Well, most often being inconsolable at a funeral of someone you're mourning deeply isn't a choice,

IS IT?

Never has been for me, but then maybe we're not all as strong as you.

[uppityperson]

257. I'd rather a child playing than an adult inconsolably weeping at my funeral thank you very much.

And at my parents' funerals. Much prefer it.

[jberryhill]

282. Unless mom is a 'casket diver'

[uppityperson]

288. I don't think I've told you

how much I appreciate your posts on this thread. thank you.

[Fawke Em]

73. Some people don't have the money for a babysitter.

Duh.

[tammywammy]

74. The child's father takes care of her during the day while the mother works

I wrote that in my reply.

BTW, everyone seemed surprised that she brought her daughter to the funeral instead of leaving her with her father for the morning and picking her up afterward. Instead she child proceeded to throw things, run around and scream before and during the service. Sorry, that's inappropriate. The child was throwing a temper tantrum before things even started. The mother should have sat outside the service with her instead of bringing her in, since it was obvious from the beginning what was going to happen.

[theaocp]

386. Ultimately, this is what it's all about.

If a child is being disruptive, the parent needs to remove that child from the scene. Plain and simple. It's a sacrifice of being both a civilized adult and a parent. Summed up: it shows respect for all parties involved. Too bad many parents do not wish to hold themselves up to this standard.

[alphafemale]

27. heehee

[seabeyond]

30. now lets make a list what we hate about adults.... betcha as long.

it never took but seconds for my kids to figure out the adults that did not particularly like them, for the mere fact that they were kids. and they had no interest interacting or being around the adult, so they would have stayed well away from your plastered smile. the most obvious insults, derision, condescension has come from adults with their arrogant belief a kid won't recognize the rude behavior.

i like being around my kids. i like being around most all kids. i like listening to them and hearing what and how they think. and really, i mean this sincerely, if you dislike kids that much, you do not want to hear or see them, let the parent know, so they can be sure not to rock you boat.

as a parent, i have no desire what so ever to share my child with someone who does not want that child around.

now,

that may mean i cant participate in some events because golly gee.... i have these kids and they re my responsibility and i dont take them lightly. i won't be ditchin them for you.

[pnwmom]

100. I agree -- except that this was a family Christmas event, so I think all children should be welcomed

and anyone who with so little tolerance for kids should stay home.

[seabeyond]

143. the thing. a person who does not have kids may be the ones to blow something very small into a HUGE

Last edited Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:17 AM - Edit history (2)

deal and then say kids out of control. their tolerance so limited, no grace at all.

i dont want my kids to be around that adult that will teach them such a lack of tolerance, understanding or perception, anyway.

today talking to my father about his gr grabddaughter. 4. the face she gives. ya, a snotty face and she learned it fast, not to give it to me. but, overall the girl did a kick ass job with all the excitement, lots of people, early morning, lots of emotion. i told her how well she did. and i am tough on her. telling my father. she is in a lot of different environments with different demands and rules. her moms house. the mans house her mom is divorcing, she grew up with. and her biological fathers house.

fuck

she is just 4. lol

she was at biological fathers house all christmas eve. woken at midnght to open presents. (dont know what the fuck that is about). and brought to my house for santa morning at 8. then back here for dinner at 3. no nap. her biological father insists she is the princess and he the prince. spend the day with that then come into another environment, it is hard to adjust.

that is a LOT to ask from a little four year old

adults that have no patience with kids maybe ought to not put themselves in these nuclear environments, lol.

tis sad

and interesting

[pnwmom]

309. We used to have a child-hater in our family. Fortunately, she's gone now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=73866

[laundry_queen]

152. +1

Kids are so much more perceptive than certain adults give them credit for. And depending on the personality of the child, certain children sense when an adult dislikes them and will attempt to aggravate that adult even more, on purpose. Or they simply act up in an attempt to get out of the situation.

I will say that my kids always get compliments on how well behaved they are and you know what? I did everything opposite of what my parents did. I also, like you seabeyond, really enjoy my kids' company and spend a lot of time with them. I include them in as much as I can, since my parents were of the mind 'children should be seen and not heard' and I believe it really crippled me for years. I was petrified of adults as a child and while people might like that because they think it makes for better behaved children who have 'respect' I can also say it makes for children who a ripe for abuse because they would never say no to an adult either out of fear of consequences.

There are many people in my immediate and extended family who are childless by choice. In fact, probably more childless than who are not. And I've never seen the level of arrogance at family functions that I see here regarding those with children. I also get tired of the 'I'm a victim' mentality when those people are around children. As others have said, they do have a choice. Don't invite said person. Make other plans. If it's Christmas and you believe that you can't get around it, then you grin and bear it just like the rest of us do with creepy uncle or sarcastic grandma. Or do the parents a favor and let them know how much you dislike them and their child. You'll be doing them and yourself a favor because I can guarantee, there's no way they'll ever attend another event with you. And it's likely no one else in the family will want to invite you either and then you'll never have to deal with them again. Problem solved.

[seabeyond]

155. my oldest taught me it is true, the feel of an insult. by 3 or 4 he would look to me when an adult

would try to put him in his place or any other manner an adult chooses to be ugly to a kid. i would pull the child out of environment and a simply say "some adults dont like kids". that would put it in place for my son so he didnt internalize it.

my husband had parents that was like yours. my family was not like that at all. kids werent allowed in aprents bedroom. parents ate dinner after kids. mind blowing. my husband loves how we do it, but periodically i see his raising raise its head. and i laugh, ya right, not gonna happen.

his parents now do everything to connect the family. my family is just connected, without effort.

i also have more family without kids or even married than the other way. isnt that funny. no one has a problem with it. well, one uncle. and we dont visit. lol. too bad. i like the man.

[tavalon]

373. While inflammatory, this topic is actually quite interesting

I have a severely autistic child so we need to sit out many gatherings because he has the athletic body of a 16 year old and the judgement and self control of a 4 year old. But this year, my husband's new girlfriend really wanted our whole family to come and meet her family for Christmas eve (if that last sentence didn't parse, it's because we're poly and everyone attending understood what that meant). Anyway, my husbands and I took shifts with our kiddo and actually he acted like a champ. When it was clear that he couldn't take the stimulation anymore, I took him home, and the others came home just a bit later. But everyone had really nice things to say about him and how we watched over him.One of them said something to me that I recently said to some friends of mine. They said it was obvious that he was loved and he knew it.

I have a couple of friends who are barely scraping by and they worry that their child will not have a good childhood because they struggle with money so much. But the thing is, they love this kid with all their hearts and this kid knows it. She isn't spoiled, she's loved. And she's happy, one of the happiest kids I've ever met.

I was raised by upper middle class parents who believed that children were a nuisance and clearly wished they had never had us. Sure, I had lots of things as a child, but no love.

[tpsbmam]

411. Your parents with monetary problems are providing what the kids need to succeed in life

This is from a review article by a U of MN Inst. of Child Behavior professor on Resilience in Children at-Risk (including poverty):

"The most important protective resource for development is no surprise, it is a strong relationship with a competent, caring, prosocial adult."

Maybe you could pass the article on to your friends! Sounds like they're doing a good job!

Sounds like you're an awesome parent, too.

[tavalon]

554. Not to sound arrogant,

but yeah, I am a good parent. I never thought I would be and I never allowed my loins to produce progeny for just that reason. He's my stepchild (been with him now for 11 years). I knew all the ways I didn't want to parent and I asked lots of parents and consulted lots of books, some about autism but most about parenting.

It's funny (weird) that I always start from the place of knowing what I don't want and then I figure out what I do want.

I'll take a look at that article and might even pass it on. Honestly, we would never have crossed paths if I hadn't started being a volunteer at the kiddos moms' animal rescue. But they are salt of the earth good people. I tend to have few real life friends because I'm a nightshifter and a mom to an autistic kiddo and, and, and........

Anyway, because I'm a nurse, they think I'm miles above them. I'm not, or at least I don't want to be. If the article is too wordy, I'd rather put it in my own words. Which, actually, I do, often.

[tpsbmam]

596. Nothing arrogant about doing a good job, recognizing it and acknowledging it.

That's healthy.

And he's a lucky guy having you! As difficult as it can be having a kid with autism, I suspect you're also lucky to have him as I've always found kids with special needs enrich my life in a way that few other things or people can.

As for the other, yeah, I totally know what you're talking about. I have a Ph.D. and have someone who works for me once a week cleaning my house and more (i'm disabled -- she does A LOT of stuff I can't do)-- she's been with me for 3 years and has become a friend. She has a high school education and does the same thing with me. I've told her a number of times this is total bullshit! She's incredibly bright -- among other things, she's an excellent problem solver and, when I pointed it out to her, she saw that there are MANY people in her life who rely on her for that, sometimes me included! I see her fluid intelligence on a regular basis -- the woman is seriously bright. I think I've finally convinced her that education isn't the same as intelligence -- I know VERY bright people who never went on to advanced education -- she's one of them.

Yeah, it's pretty wordy -- summation is a good idea.

[tavalon]

605. But totally spot one

Thanks!

I adore my kiddo except when he practices his highest squeals in my ear, as he just did. But since he's grinning ear to ear, it's hard to stay annoyed.

[jberryhill]

236. Bravo

[Number23]

244. +a million, seabeyond

as a parent, i have no desire what so ever to share my child with someone who does not want that child around.

+a million.

[onpatrol98]

571. +1

Seabeyond is right, tell the parents how you really feel. Don't hold back. Let it out. Don't sugar coat it. Then they'll know and will either ignore your invites or make other arrangements for their children. And, when they see your name on caller ID...they'll make sure their kids don't answer the phone. Unless they start doing it to purposely annoy you. I bet a few of them already know how you feel. I'd love to hear their perspective right now. Even when we don't appreciate honesty, we generally act on it. Your life is probably just a few phone calls away of being simplified. It just takes a few calls or emails. Hey, send a copy of the rant. It was really effective on DU.

[Quantess]

31. Some children are very likeable.

The delightful children tend to be the ones who are occasionally told "no", who have parents who expect good behavior from them, and who are not allowed to do anything they want.

Parents who never say no to their children, who let them run around wreaking havoc, who let their children interrupt adult conversations, etc, are doing a disservice to their children.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

214. Exactly. Some kids are awesome. Some are something out of a nightmare, because their parents

allow this (or maybe LIKE them to be this way).

[alphafemale]

32. Hark all those about! Bask in the light of my brilliant child.

Dude no one else in a 15 ft circumference thinks your childs' a genius for their constant questions during the IMAX show.

Could you shush them please.

I paid my $15 to watch the show. Not hear you chatter with your indulged brat.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

215. So true! nt

[sarcasmo]

224. Isn't that the worst? had the same experience myself.

[Abin Sur]

34. Whatever happened to children being seen and not heard?

I see (and, unfortunately, hear) a lot of children waiting in line with their parents at the post office where I work. The well-behaved ones are the exception, not the rule.

[liberalhistorian]

52. Yeah, let's just keep them all locked away in their

rooms and never, ever let them out of the house except for school where they can be with their own kind.

[Abin Sur]

55. Please tell me you aren't being sarcastic...I'm *so* in on this!

But seriously, I have no problem with quiet, well behaved, respectful children.

It's a shame they're so rare...

[pnwmom]

98. It's a shame quiet, well behaved respectful adults are so rare.

Still, we can hope.

[Abin Sur]

104. While many adults are poorly behaved (in a restaurant, for instance)

which is more disruptive to a nice meal? An adult loudly speaking on a cell phone, or a kid screaming, crying, throwing food, and running around?

I've seen examples of both, and the brat has a *far* worse impact on one's dining experience.

[uppityperson]

107. I agree, the brat talking loudly on the cell phone has a *far* worse impact on dining experience

After all, they should know better, that they are not the most important people in the world and I really don't want to have to listen to them yelling about whatever the hell they are yelling about.

[Abin Sur]

110. Cute. Are you actually arguing that an adult speaking loudly on cell phone is

more disruptive in a restaurant than a child screaming, throwing food, and running around?

[uppityperson]

114. Yes, it certainly can be. Are you arguing that an adult screaming on a cell phone is

less disruptive than a child screaming is?

Are you arguing that a drunk adult is less disruptive than a child running around?

[Abin Sur]

118. I never said the adult in question was screaming, did I?

While I've certainly encountered adults in restaurants speaking loudly on a cell phone, I've never encountered one screaming...and I *have* encountered screaming kids running around in restaurants, so (at least for myself) the former isn't a problem, whereas the latter is.

But let's go with your example. In this case, the adult and child are equally disruptive...but I will speculate that a screaming adult almost invariably be asked to leave, whereas the screaming children are often not.

[Telly Savalas]

620. It's certainly much more common.

[pnwmom]

109. I've honestly never had a "dining experience" ruined by a child.

But I've had some unpleasant experiences with drunk adults.

[Abin Sur]

113. I've never had a bad experience in a restaurant with a drunk adult,

but I have had a couple of fancy dinners ruined by children.

[pnwmom]

117. A couple? In how many years of restaurant going?

And how many children did you encounter over the years who didn't ruin your meal?

[Abin Sur]

120. I was thinking of the worst examples. I've certainly encountered more than 2

instances of children acting up in restaurants in the last 30 years.

That being said, I will freely admit that the majority of children weren't particularly disruptive...but I can think of a couple dozen times over the decades when children have had at least *some* negative impact on my dining experience, and I honestly can't think of any where an adult did anything worse than talk and laugh somewhat loudly.

Note that I'm speaking of upscale restaurants, not fast food.

[Union Scribe]

358. Perhaps because they were allowed to be

loud, disrespectful children.

[pnwmom]

364. Or maybe it's just the opposite. As soon as they're out from under their parents' iron thumbs

they let loose.

[Union Scribe]

376. Could be.

I suppose to be safe a parent might seek something in the middle.

[pnwmom]

476. Yes! Being a good parent is a difficult balancing act --

that's never changes.

[jberryhill]

78. The 1960's and liberal ideas about childrearing?

Teaching children to do things like "question authority" and so on.

It was those dirty hippies, I tell ya.

I'm asking the same question about the under-30 crowd and what makes them think they have anything interesting to say.

Across the board we need to make kids understand that they must respect and obey their elders, uphold out cherished traditions and maintain the integrity of our precious bodily fluids.

[helderheid]

385. You.

Full of win.

[musicblind]

657. The sarcasm in this post was brilliant.

Or I hope that was sarcasm.

[jberryhill]

658. Consider your hope rewarded

[pnwmom]

97. That is part of many authoritarian cultures, but not of the America

that most progressives want to live in.

Children don't suddenly become adults at the age of 18, after almost two decades of being "seen and not heard." They need years of practice being seen and heard before they can join the world as adults.

[fishwax]

260. I don't think well-behaved children are particularly rare

I think people are just more likely to notice (and focus on) poorly behaved children.

[seabeyond]

299. the thing about it is, it could be a wonderful child having a bad moment and there is NO grace at

all

see one moment of a kids life and they and parent are categorized as horrible people.

[fishwax]

303. good point

[LeftishBrit]

36. Admittedly I don't know the kid in question, but I think you're confusing two issues:

parents who include their kids a lot in social arrangements and adult activities, and parents who let their kids get away with murder. The two are not the same.

I have no children myself, but I enjoy being around the children of my friends and relatives. I do find them interesting to be with (often more so than adults!) and am happy to be in their company. They do not need to be 'special' or 'fascinating' to be refreshing and enjoyable companions; all children are special IMO.

Allowing children to mess up and break other people's property, run through shops without consideration for others, and otherwise misbehave is another matter, and is not doing anyone a favour, least of all the kids.

In my experience, the WORST behaved kids I've encountered have tended to be those who are not included much in family and social activities and given an implicit message by their parents of 'Do what you like so long as you don't bother ME!'

I should add that yesterday was Christmas, which is for many families basically 'Children's Day', and I would not really think it reasonable to expect to spend a child-free day with a parent on that particular day.

[pnwmom]

93. I agree. Children are enjoyable human beings who need to interact with other human beings.

Parents should keep their children from being disruptive; but other adults should understand that children are works in progress.

And, as you mentioned, yesterday was Christmas -- which is an incredibly exciting day for children. Anyone who is bothered by the high-energy of kids should try to avoid them on that day of the year!

[SidDithers]

37. I feel the same way about dogs...nt

Sid

[Abin Sur]

43. The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

That having been said, there are certainly poorly-behaved dogs...but on the whole I would rather interact with a random dog than a random child.

Kids. Yech.

[pnwmom]

111. "Kids. Yech." This is a form of bigotry that seems to be acceptable here.

[retread]

127. If this were said here about any other group of people other than children or

Republicans, pizza would be served!!

[pnwmom]

314. That's for sure. n/t

[tjwash]

38. Yeah...your right....prostitution SHOULD be legal

Oops...wrong thread

[polly7]

39. That is a funny post:)

I absolutely adore children and am usually the first to make excuses for almost anything when it comes to them, but ... I can absolutely see how someone who doesn't have their own could easily be bothered by the things you've stated. I have a niece who, when she was young, was a real terror... so much so that her mom and dad had a VERY hard time finding anyone to babysit. People loved her, they just couldn't stand being around her for longer than a few minutes. She's a very grounded, sensible, happy young woman NOW .... but, oh lordy she put us through hell. So, I hear ya.

[stopbush]

40. Obviously written by a person who doesn't have kids.

It's amazing how annoying kids can be to single people, especially in restaurants. Once you've had a few yourself, these annoyances morph into background noise, along with the muzak and clanking plates in the restaurant kitchen.

Fact is, most singles who air the kind of complaints we see here come loaded for bear to hate the kids before they even arrive, no matter what the situation and no matter who the kids. It's just another stereotypical response to something already disliked.

You'll notice the OP doesn't bother listing any LIKABLE traits for kids.

[seabeyond]

41. not to mention overstimulation on a day like christmas for many reasons and the age of the child. nt

[Abin Sur]

44. "Likeable traits for kids". Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

[Ineeda]

45. I have two, now grown, and though they were far from perfect,

they would never have gotten away with behavior such as several people, including me, have posted. So, there are no broad brush complaints about kids here. This thread is about brats and their indulgent parents, and you must admit that they do, indeed, exist.

[pnwmom]

189. There may be no broad blush complaints, but there are misguided and intolerant complaints.

It is misguided to think that children should be held to the exact same standards of behavior as adults; or to think that children shouldn't be allowed to answer the telephone in their own home, or to talk to the checker at the supermarket, or to listen quietly while adults talk -- all points made in the OP.

[Eliminator]

57. Utterly irrelevant

This OP is about the bratty kids, more precisely, about the bad parents.

There are PLENTY of children who are well behaved. They usually have good parents. Single people don't have problems with kids. They have problems with the bad ones who have shitty parents.

[pnwmom]

319. You didn't read the OP carefully.

Some of her complaints were about perfectly acceptable and normal behaviors -- such as answering the phone in a child's own home. Now that my kids don't bother anymore, I miss the help.

[Eliminator]

396. That's a matter of perspective

The OP didn't just talk about answering the phone:


Parents that allow the kids to run and answer the phone every time and waste your time talking trash, when the reason you called is to talk to the adult, not entertain the kid

If it's a matter of the kid answering the phone, saying "hold on I'll go get him/her", that's different. Maybe the OP would have a problem with that too, I don't know. But the OP is complaining about having to talk to the kid about kiddy stuff, and that the kid answers the phone every time.

[pnwmom]

468. What's wrong with the child answering the phone every time?

What gives this woman the right to have her calls answered at all? A lot of people just let the machine answer everything. She'll get a faster response if SOMEONE is answering it.

And what gives her the right NOT to have to politely talk to ANYONE who answers the phone? If she doesn't want a child to answer, she has lots of alternatives these days -- emailing, texting, etc.

[Puglover]

584. Yes there are. I have two visiting my home right now. My nieces kids. She is a great parent.

And she would be the first one to agree with the OP that obnoxious bratty kids with oblivious or even enabling parents suck.

That some would get so outraged over that premise is odd.

I was at a summer work party and a co worker brought her two very entitled boys along with her and her husband. They were around 11 and 13.
They got on a schtick where they were going around to all of the adults pretending to be waiters. And then demanding tips. People would say "no thank you" politely but they were being really aggressive and getting in your face. Over and over and over and over.
Mom of course thought their behavior was just adorable. They were interrupting conversations with their cute little game. And neither Mom nor Dad did a thing.

It would have been such a no brainer as a parent to be aware of other peoples reaction to your kids and tell them to knock it off. But that didn't happen. Finally one of my less tolerant co-workers said loudly something like "No and stop bothering people" And of course Mom and Dad were pissed. At my co-worker. Not their brats.

So yeah as far as a situation like this goes, I am totally on board with the OP.

[liberalhistorian]

61. Amen. And this particular poster has had a bee

in her bonnet against children and those of us who dare to be parents for a long time and never misses an opportunity to make that be known.

She has the right to decide for herself not to have children, and the right to live her life free from criticism or judgment over such a decision. She does NOT have the right to go about demanding that children be kept under lock and key and to constantly criticize other parents when, never having been a parent, she doesn't understand the first thing about it.

Speaking of restaurants-when my son was younger, he and my parents and I were in a FAMILY restaurant once. He'd been coloring with the "entertainment packets" they give children in such restaurants and was laughing at something he'd colored. A couple people at the table across from us got mad and said "can't you keep him quiet?" He wasn't screaming. He wasn't crying. He wasn't banging on the table or making a huge mess or throwing food around or running amok around the restaurant. He was LAUGHING. And this was a FAMILY restaurant, not an upscale, romantic ambience establishment. We politely told them where to put it and what to do with it. Politely, of course, unlike them.

[Broderick]

144. touche

[stevedeshazer]

186. You win this thread.

I've read this entire thread with horror.

It is my opinion that the OP just does not want to be around children, which is odd since she was obviously a child once. I'd like to know what her childhood was like, and what her parents were like but she won't share that.

I have two very well-behaved adult children who are in the same age group as the OP.

They don't have children, either. But they sure as hell aren't disturbed by them.

So, as much as I'd like to be a grandfather, I respect their decisions. But just outright disliking children and compartmentalizing them in 19th-century Dickensian terms is ridiculous.

Thanks for your good post.

And I wish the OP had a little more compassion. We were all kids once, perhaps she was the perfect child to instruct the rest of us.

[distantearlywarning]

64. Actually, the OP was quite clear that the rant was about permissive parents, NOT about the children

And I agree with the OP completely that adults who spoil kids (and therefore cause problems for other people) are extremely irritating.

[Skelly]

342. One's 'permissive' parent...

...is another's 'progressive' parent. Even in some cases, seen as a 'restrictive' parent. After 30 years and five children, I have been told all three. It all depends on the judging person's perspective.

While dining in finer restaurants, other customers would come up to our table and compliment us on our children (funny how I remember that same thing happening to my mother when she took my sister and I out to eat).

I have had some other mom's tell me I am too permissive...I shouldn't be letting my 3yr daughter rifle through my stuff (my jewelry box). She was curious about it and wanted to explore it. She could not damage anything in there or be harmed.

I heard the 'tsk' tsk' (you'll spoil her) when I carried my baby around in a snugglie becasue she cried in the playpen. What baby wouldn't rather be with their mother?

And a group of women once pounced on me when I mentioned we don't buy cola products (kids were now tweens) like I was the worst mother in the world.

Having children in the company of adults for conversations is a wonderful thing. Of course the topics are chosen wisely. Children can be removed to another activity if 'those' types of conversations need to begin. Since none of my five children spent their childhood locked up in a room with 30 other kids their own age, day after day, year after year, they were around many adults, babies, teens, children of all ages. I think this prepared them on how to communicate with people different than themselves. (a mother at my daughter's dance class came up and told me how much she always enjoyed talking with my daughter. She was 10).

Taking children to restaurants to learn how to behave is a teaching moment. The first few tries may not end happily. And other patrons of that particular restaurant will only see 'bratty' kids.
I work in a restaurant now. My children are all grown. I see every day how parents react with their children. Yes, there are bratty ones, but mostly they are just being normal kids doing normal kid stuff and they have parents that are teaching them what is appropriate.

When I am out and about and run into family with children, most times I enjoy watching them. The times I do not, the kids are obviously out of control and the parents do nothing to control them. Depending on the situation, I may try to take control (honey, running around in this restaurant is very dangerous to yourself and to others. If you need to leave your seat, make sure you do so carefully and not bump anyone) or I leave the area (restaurant, store, etc) and let the management know why I am leaving.

Even my perspective is subjective. But at least it keeps my stress level down. I have done something to stop the annoyance.

It is only human to have empathy for something you have experienced yourself. So it is no surprise that child free individuals have less tolerance for children than individuals who have children. People who do not have cell phones or who do not use them while driving have less tolerance towards people that do.

My suggestion for the OP would be to first try and understand what the situation really is...a teaching moment for the child (how the parents respond). If they do and are effective, then realize the 'annoyance' should be seen as a really great moment in that child's life. It is the miracle of raising a wonderful person right before your eyes. Second, if the parents do nothing, YOU try to make the teaching moment, not with stern judgement, but like a teacher to her student. If that fails, you leave the situation or tolerate it. I would leave. Even the best filet in the finest restaurant is not worth a child run amok or two adults arguing (why do men think that by taking their wives to a really fine dining establishment to ask for a divorce will NOT cause a scene?). Of course the same is true with animal lovers and their pets.

[Irishonly]

518. Exactly

I remember when my daughter was three and we went to out to eat at a nicer restaurant. We heard the people next to us ask that we be moved or they be moved and they were refused. My daughter was very well behaved because we expected her to. After the couple finished their dinner they came over to our table and shook my husband and my hand. They couldn't believe that a child was that well behaved. I think they probably had no time for kids that made any noise at all.

Another time we went out to eat with our bil and sil with their daughter who is 2 months older than our daughter. We were horrified. If someone had told me my neice could be so badly behaved I wouldn't have believed them. She did all of the things written about in this thread. She ran, screamed and bothered people eating and my bil and sil did nothing. They thought she was cute. We didn't go out to eat again with them for years.

I thought nothing about taking my daughter with me/us anywhere. She wasn't always an angel and she would be disciplined when she didn't behave correctly. I never took her where she would not be welcomed and a friendship ended when a friend didn't want her to come to dinner. We were a family. My husband and I had date nights but not many. They are children for such a short time.

[Puglover]

585. Yeah she was. I don't think the problem here is with parenting as

much as poor reading comprehension.

[madmom]

77. I have two grown children and five grand kids. I do NOT accept

misbehavior in restaurants and block them out as background noises. I do agree with the op that the patents simply do not know how to parent. Teaching your child how to behave in someone elses house and to respect their things is part teaching your child social graces or how to behave in public/someones elses home.

[eShirl]

79. just a reminder: "single" and "childless" are not synonyms

[liberalmuse]

46. There is a cure...

But you have to have a kid of your own, first. It's sort of like getting an inoculation, and certain things kids are prone to do don't bother you as much.

[Abin Sur]

49. As an example of the "cure worse than the disease", that's not bad!

[Missy Vixen]

434. I'll bet Susan Smith's parents advised the same thing

When someone tells you they are uninterested in becoming a parent, it's because they've thought long and hard about the issue. It's unfortunate that the childed do not believe the rest of us can make a decision based on available information. It's also unfortunate more people aren't encouraged to forgo parenthood.

[abelenkpe]

47. My parents always let me hang out with the adults

During family gatherings. I loved listening to them. My mother also took me with her to her college art classes where I learned much about composition and design and life drawing starting at age four. She never put me on a pedestal but she also didn't separate me from adults as if it was best to keep children out of the way. Marie Montessori did much to show the best thing was to never talk down to kids or treat them differently.
Anyway love your rant. It really tickles me when people who don't have kids pass judgement on parents or give advice on how to raise kids. My forever dried up old cubie recently ranted on and on about how parents today are too permissive about what kids eat and how she would force her kids to eat vegetables by not giving them any food or drink until they ate the vegetables or starved to death. Good thing she never had any. And congratulations on recognizing that you are too controlling, impatient, judgemental and self centered to embark on motherhood.

[Abin Sur]

51. I honestly don't care how parents raise their kids, as long as their children aren't disruptive.

If your little darling behaves himself at the restaurant, movie theater, etc., whatever methods you use (short of child abuse) to ensure such behavior are fine with me. It's the results that matter.

[kiva]

56. And I'm sure everyone loved having you around...all of the time.

You sound like such a charming and lovely person, calling your cube mate "dried up" and the OP "controlling, impatient, judgmental and self-centered"...it's such a shame that you are now grown, because thousands of people would learn to love all children, having such a precocious little darling like yourself around.

*edited for spelling*

[MattBaggins]

139. What he said about the OP is no worse than the

nonsense the OP spews toward children and "breeders".

[kiva]

188. Searched and found that you were the only one

who used 'breeders' in this thread, so not sure why you are saying the OP said that. As to the rest, the person I responded to was personally attacking the OP, who is making general comments about bad parents - a big difference.

While I disagree with some of the OPs comments, I agree with the main point - bad parents often have children who are brats.

[abelenkpe]

448. Because it's OK for the OP to post an emotional tirade but not for anyone to respond with one?

O and please alert me for telling you to fuck off.

[kiva]

461. No, because what she wrote is a tirade about bad parents...

what you wrote is a personal attack...and now you've done it twice, bless your sweet little heart.

"Because it's OK for the OP to post an emotional tirade but not for anyone to respond with one? O and please alert me for telling you to fuck off."

And no, I won't bother to alert on you...you'll have to go elsewhere for the attention you seek.

[jberryhill]

70. Lol

[pnwmom]

324. I grew up in a college town and my parents, like others, did a lot of entertaining.

I was always welcome to join in the conversations in my living room and I found many of them fascinating. That was one of the best parts of growing up in that town.

[Eliminator]

53. "Narcissitic, sociopathic adults" AKA Republicans (nt)

[alp227]

277. HAHA I was thinking that those kids=future Republican voters!

Or maybe non-voters at all as narcissism can go either way in the political spectrum or lead to voter apathy. Whole other story though.

[Moonwalk]

59. Was there any reason you couldn't be rude to this rude, inconsiderate parent?

I get your rant, but what I don't get was your robotic smile and silence. Or anyone else's. If I may rant back--it drives me nuts when people let such parents get away with letting their children act this way.

Life is too short. It really is too, too short to be nice to people who do rude things like this. If the holiday is ruined by the kid already, why not make sure that the parent knows what they've done and maybe won't do it again in the future? Don't rant here--rant at the moment to the parent. Rant loud, rant in their face, and make sure they know that this isn't acceptable. Not now, not ever. Tell them, "Your child is in my house--" or whomever's home-- "not yours. And in this house, they must be well behaved. Here is what they are doing, and they aren't allowed to do that. Stop them, or leave."

And if your rant so offends them that they never come back with their kid into your life, well, that's win-win, isn't it?

Rude people get away with such things because polite people are afraid to be rude. And that's just stupid because it means that the rude people get to do anything they want, not be punished for their rudeness, while the polite people, who should be rewarded, get punished.

Yes?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

218. I know. I ought to have said something about the little brat. After reading the posts in here...

from the parents with bratty children, I made a decision to never remain silent around brats again. And next time I call someone back and they have their kid on the line talking to me about Barbies for 10 minutes, I will not call them back again. It's crazy the way these parents want to unload their kids on others. They need a nanny or something. I am not their nanny.

[alp227]

278. Next time a kid does that to you spit in the kid's face and make kid cry for hours.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

279. Nope. I simply won't invite my friend (who WANTS to be invited!)

If she thinks I, my boyfriend, my friends and my family are her nanny, she's quite mistaken! She needs to have Christmas somewhere where people have equally unruly kids, and are as equally unwilling as she is to stop them from being destructive.

Simple!

[theaocp]

388. Also, say something to the child.

Two excellent methods of dealing with a child on the phone are:

a. "I'd love to hear more about this, but right now, I need to talk with your Mom, ok? Maybe we can talk more sometime later."

b. Hang up and call back. It's ruder, but kids need to learn to deal with disappointment.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

403. That's part of the problem today. I think some moms (dads sometimes, tho less so), feel their child

should be allowed to do anything they wish, all the time.

[Skelly]

350. Yes and No

In my experience, I have found you do not need to be rude to rebuke rude behavior. You can say and do everything in your post in a non-rude way. It is usually more productive since they will not feel threatened or defensive.

It is not that polite people are afraid to be rude, it is that some people are afraid of confrontation. I would rather bring someone up to my level than stoop to theirs. Model appropriate behavior on how to stop rudeness.

[seabeyond]

422. 4 yr old niece sittin at table with all the adults said something snotty to mom

as mom is telling her, why she did what and then telling her "and dont talk to me that way" i am say.... "dont be snotty". and we moved on. easy as pie. reinforce what mom said. no feelings hurt. a boundary drawn for lesson learned.

it takes a village.

you are right. no need to be rude. no need for snarky, condescending, insulting. that is being an adult and teaching a child how to be an adult.

[liberalhistorian]

62. My goodness, people who've never had children

but who constantly criticize them and parents drive me crazy!

But then again, what do I know? How DARE parents bring their children out of their locked rooms for Christmas, of all days!

[Broderick]

146. Touche

[Taitertots]

65. Finally, somone putting the blame where it belongs... Bad Parents.

Now, next time you see a spoiled child creating a disturbance are you going to confront their parents?

[Taitertots]

265. I just hope they are not the kind of people that take their children to fancy restraunts, etc...

Then there would be no need to confront them in the first place. However, if they are the type of parent that doesn't take the people around them into consideration, they deserve being confronted.

Heard on the playground or in McDonalds, not at the movie theater.

[Taitertots]

292. The problem is that there are parents who do less than nothing to stop their misbehaving children

The problem is that there are parents who are oblivious to the problems caused by their children. I don't advocate accosting the parents of disabled children who are properly caring for their children. I advocate accosting parents who are not taking reasonable steps to ensure that they are not creating an undue disturbance to people around them. Autistic or not, there are easy to find examples of bad parenting that justifies accosting. If your Brother or Sister are taking the few minute to calm down thier daughter than they are clearly not bad parents. There are parents of persumably non-autistic child who don't do that and they should be accosted.

[pnwmom]

344. The OP is lumping spoiled children and normal children together, with her complaints

about things as innocuous as children answering the phone in their own homes.

And, as seaglass pointed out, she was not making any allowances for difficult situations. Autistic children have an even greater need than others for socialization. We adults need to have more consideration for the challenges those families face -- even if we have to put up with more noise in an airplane or a store.

[Taitertots]

440. I don't agree with your interpretation of the OP

Last edited Tue Dec 27, 2011, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't see the OP as lumping spoiled and normal children. The devil is in the details.

With regards to answering the phone. There is a significant difference between having a child answer the phone, and leaving said child to have a 5 min conversation while the parents sit on their asses; too lazy to get up to get the phone.

With regard to noise on planes and in grocery stores. No one expects total silence. All we want is a reasonable effort from parents to avoid creating a disturbance. Autisic or not, parents should be making an effort to take the people around them into consideration. There are parents who don't do this.

I'd be willing to bet that far more people would have consideration for the challenges created by autistic children if we didn't have to deal with far worse problems from non-autistic children. I think it has to be mutual, with both parents and non-parents acting with respect and consideration to the feelings of each other.

[HuckleB]

454. Yes, but are these concerns even real?

How often do such things actually happen?

That's how undue fear is created, and the OP is creating undue anger by describing the extremes.

[pnwmom]

464. On this we agree, HuckleB.

We go out to eat in a variety of restaurants and I can't ever remember being bothered by anyone's children. I've seen some over-tired, crying children in stores -- but they're not mine, so I don't stress out. I usually make a point of smiling at those parents because I know it's hard to always manage the juggling act perfectly.

[HuckleB]

492. +1

[Taitertots]

486. We wouldn't be having this discussion if they didn't

These extremes are actually happening. The fact that they are happening is the basis for the anger in the OP, which I believe is justified.

[HuckleB]

491. We don't know that they're happening, and we certainly don't know that they're happening very often.

The world is full of urban myths, and the descriptions in this OP do not match the world I know, and I know a world filled with kids.

[Taitertots]

543. I've seen it and numerous people here have too

You must be very fortunate if you have not seen egregious bad parenting and misbehaving children. Plenty of other people have the misfortune of having it thrust upon us.

[HuckleB]

550. I know plenty of parents and other adults who have not seen it.

They find these claims to be bizarre.

Apparently you live in a hell hole.

[pnwmom]

542. But if you read many of the writer's other posts in this thread,

she seems to dislike children in general and thinks most of them are poorly behaved.

(Since several of the behaviors she dislikes -- e.g., listening to adults converse, talking to clerks in stores -- are things most parents encourage their children to do.)

[pnwmom]

343. Good point, seaglass. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

220. I promise I'll never remain silent again around bratty kids and their charmed parents. nt

[jberryhill]

71. That's why Islamic kids are well behaved

They have the good sense to do things like not allow girls to wear what they want.

[ThomThom]

81. I totally sympathize, parenting skills are in short supply

<<-Parents that let their kids behave and run like animals through stores (and I would add) and apartment buildings>>

not being a parent I have little tolerance for the banshee screaming and running around the building I live in, we have rules but they don't get enforced

since I stood up for my rights I have been labeled as a child hater
I don't hate children, I have known some very nice, well mannered kids. I just don't think I have to put up with this nonsense form kids I know and especially from ones I don't know.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

225. ThomThom, the only ones angry are the parents of bratty kids, and it's a tiny handful. The rest

are more than likely parents too, but they have the decency to understand that their kid is their kid and not to unload the kid upon the world to do as their kid desires, as if the rest of the world were a whole slew of nannies for the kid.

[seabeyond]

297. wow. really? and you know everyone that disagrees. that they have kids? that their kids

are bratty? lol. really? you are really standing by that statement? come on..... you are better than that

[pnwmom]

345. You were surprised when your husband's niece who lives at home showed up?

If you knew she lived at home, why didn't you invite her? Was your husband unhappy that she came?

[pnwmom]

354. If I knew one of my adult nieces was living at home, of course I'd invite her for a family dinner.

Why not? Why leave my niece out? Even if you were planning an adults-only event, she obviously qualifies.

[pnwmom]

357. No. But I think it would be polite to invite any adult niece or nephew who's living with the parents

Ordinarily, I try to avoid hurt feelings. When there are three related adults living in a home, I wouldn't invite only two of them. In a similar situation, if my uncle was living with my cousin and his wife, I'd invite all three of them for dinner. I wouldn't leave out my elderly uncle.

[pnwmom]

85. You make some good points but others are way over the top.

You also don't seem to understand that the way for parents to socialize their children is to allow them the chance to safely interact with other adults.

For example:

"Parents that allow the kids to run and answer the phone every time and waste your time talking trash, when the reason you called is to talk to the adult, not entertain the kid."

I was happy my children wanted to answer the phone. Why not? They often had callers, too; and they could usually get there quicker. You say they're wasting your time? I bet many times they were disappointed to hear your voice -- instead of one of their friends -- but were too polite to tell you so.

"Parents that allow their kids to interrupt conversations between them and another adult."

I agree; and I think adults should model this behavior. I assume you never interrupt children who are talking, either, right?

"Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations"

First you complain that children interrupt, then you complain that they don't?

"Parents that stop a whole huge line at the supermarket or anywhere at all because they want their child to talk to the employee taking orders or checking out."

Children are human beings who need to be socialized by safe interactions with other human beings.


"Parents that side with their kids against teachers."

It depends on the situation. Sometimes a teacher is wrong and the child needs a supporter or a go-between.


"Parents that behave as if their kid were God's answer to the world."

Children are God's answer to the world. But not mine in particular. All children. They are the hope of the future, in a world that adults have so badly screwed up.

[barbtries]

166. out of many good responses,

i think this one is my favorite.

[helderheid]

387. Thank you

[uppityperson]

86. "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations" WHAT? You don't want kids

to sit quietly and listen to adults talk? Seriously? Kids should not sit and listen to adult conversations. Why? HOW will they learn what an adult conversation is if they aren't allowed to sit quietly and listen?

How will kids learn to be adults, learn mature behavior if not by observation?

[pnwmom]

87. According to the OP, they shouldn't talk and they shouldn't listen.

They shouldn't answer the phone or appear in the company of adults.

Fortunately, this person never became a parent.

[uppityperson]

92. +100000

[Broderick]

154. I agree

and, justification of bad choices in life and regrets in life are all I read this past year and this is no different. Sometimes we need to justify our regrets in life.

[AlwaysQuestion]

91. Support here from Grandma

So you don't have any kids which automatically makes you unqualified to criticize the parents of obnoxious kids? Balderdash!!

I am a grandmother who strenuously objects to kids over the age of five interrupting adult conversations; running around in other people's places like they're permitted to do at home; cheeking back; believing that what is yours is theirs; throwing tantrums; whining when they don't get their own way; and a whole host of objectionable behavior. I'm a grandmother to one of these kids; I'm also a grandmother to three others who for the most part are quite pleasant to be around; in fact, I eagerly look forward to their visits.

But there's one I can barely tolerate. Mom and Dad say "no" all the time--over and over and over again beginning in year 2 and through years 3, 4, 5, and now 6. Same old stuff--nothing new. A whole bunch of "no's" without any follow-through of substance. The kid's as smart as a whip and KNOWS full well what he's doing. I say that because when he's with me alone without either of the parents being present, he KNOWS I mean business. I'll talk with him; banter back and forth; answer questions; play games with him; make him his favorite foods; but when he starts to act up and I say no, he obeys because he also knows that I WILL follow up. If I say, "do or say that once more and I take "whatever" away from you--or we won't go out for ice-cream--or (insert consequences), the bad behavior immediately comes to a halt.

HOWEVER, when I visit with my son and daughter-in-law, the bad behavior resumes. Now, I rarely make house calls and both parents are aware that if they visit me with him in tow, my laws prevail over all others; else don't bring him. It's really that simple. I'll not be held hostage by a six-year old brat whose parents tell me is nothing short of an angel. Oh, really--well, then let those who look upon him as such offer to babysit. Funnily enough, those sources appear to be drying up. Hmmmmm, interesting.

The one thing that drives me to distraction is that I'm the mother to one of the parents who acts so permissively. He was such a good boy--and I tore not one strip from his widdle bum nor did I ever verbally abuse him. Nonetheless, there were consequences and immediate follow through. My goal was always to discipline through natural consequences whenever possible and made-up ones whenever necessary. If that was bad, well, I have absolutely no regrets. We make huge mistakes when we underestimate their abilities to put things together logically.

A child is a fascinating critter until he starts acting like a brat. Not in my territory! And I don't suffer brats outside the family either. If the parent doesn't act appropriately when one of theirs pulls a boner, I make it immediately known how I feel about the situation. Do that once is generally all that is required. So do, Sarah, speak up. If one of your friends has a child exhibiting bratty behavior on your turf, address it at once. In fact, the parent may not see you as doing them a favor, but you are--if they will listen. They should want their kids to be a "must see" and not merely tolerated under stress. That's how I sees it.

[blaze]

116. What Grandma said! nt

[distantearlywarning]

124. Thank you for the voice of reason, grandma! n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

226. Thank you, grandma! You expressed it far better than I ever could! nt

[pnwmom]

346. AlwaysQuestion,

are you a grandma who would object to your grandchildren answering the phone or quietly listening while adults talk? That would be a pretty unusual grandma -- but those were two of the points in the OP's rant.

[customerserviceguy]

94. I'm with you on this

And yes, I've been a parent. Unfortunately, my ex got custody of them, and turned them into just the kind of brats you've been writing about. I was able to wrest custody of the middle child from her ten years later, after he failed seventh grade, and had a police record. By the time I was done with him, he had scholarships to both state universities, and the local police chief was his friend, mostly from all of the community projects our family worked on around our little town.

Guess which child still has contact with me?

In any case, you need to find a way to tell this particular parent this. Don't expect it to be any kind of a teachable moment, but at least it will let her know she can't pawn her little brat off on you anymore. If these "parents" hear this from enough of us, maybe a few of them will figure it's them and not us.

[eShirl]

96. You're right; there are some parents who are just dense when it comes to this stuff.

In my experience, though, this is not the norm.

[pnwmom]

101. A lot of people get depressed during the holidays.

Maybe you're one of them. Maybe that's why you had so little tolerance for kids at what is basically a holiday for kids.



And, as for the kids, there is probably no time more exciting than Christmas -- so if you don't like to be around excited kids, maybe you should avoid Christmas parties.

[distantearlywarning]

123. Or maybe the kid really was a brat and his/her parents were indulgent and inconsiderate.

I don't have tendencies towards depression, and I love Christmas, and yet the world is still full of bad parenting.

[pnwmom]

191. Or maybe you didn't read her whole list of complaints

and notice that some are unreasonable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=72473

[distantearlywarning]

126. And also, this child-free Christmas lover takes exception to the statement

that Christmas is "basically a holiday for kids". Kids love Christmas, it's true. But it's NOT just a holiday for kids. I'm sick and tired of every fun thing in this world being something that "adults don't do". Screw that. When did we decide that "adult" meant "boring and disinterested in everything fun"? I will never be on board with that rubbish.

I'll be celebrating Christmas (and playing video games, and going to the zoo and having a child-like sense of wonder and joy about everything in the world) when I'm 80, thank you very much.

[pnwmom]

192. You don't have to see children on Christmas, but parents won't be leaving their kids on that day.

I suppose the solution, if you want to have a party on Christmas day, is to hire a babysitter to watch the kids in a separate room. Good luck on finding a babysitter on Christmas day.

[distantearlywarning]

223. Actually...

I had a kid at my house for Christmas this year. It was fine. He participated in all the adult discussions and even ate dinner on fancy china with no problems. I enjoyed the smart, funny things he contributed to the conversation. It was a festive, fun time for all. But *his* parents haven't spoiled him beyond sense and have bothered to teach him some manners, so as a result he isn't a brat. Children are actually nice when they aren't raised by permissive idiots.

And in the future you need to read more carefully before posting, because I didn't say anything about making Christmas child-free, only that I found your statement that Christmas was "basically a holiday for children" to be offensive and incorrect. Christmas is a holiday for adults *too*, and I enjoyed it just as much this year as did the child and his parents who visited our child-free household for Christmas Eve dinner and presents.

[pnwmom]

245. The problem with the OP is that she was also describing perfectly normal behavior

as poor behavior. For example, children answering the phone in their own homes or talking to clerks at stores.

Christmas is a holiday that celebrates the birth of a CHILD. Yes, the holiday is for adults, too -- but the OP seems to want to leave children out of everything.

I think that children, adults, parents, and single persons are all "actually nice" -- except when they aren't.

Venting about a large group of people because of problems with some individuals within that group isn't nice. Although the title of the OP implies that the writer only had a problem with parents who spoil their children, her long list of complaints included items that are a part of normal socialization for children -- not spoiling them at all. Virtually any good parent could find themselves on that list.

[Missy Vixen]

168. How clever.

>A lot of people get depressed during the holidays.
Maybe you're one of them. Maybe that's why you had so little tolerance for kids at what is basically a holiday for kids.<

A master stroke! Accusing the OP of intolerance AND mental illness, because she has objection to the non-parenting of those whose children are acting out at the same social gathering she was at? Wow. I'm sure it escapes the delicate sensibilities of the Outraged Parents posting on this thread, but there are holiday social gatherings that children are not invited to, and are not welcome at. Color me shocked when their parents bring them anyhow. My latest example happened less than two weeks ago.

My husband flies radio-controlled airplanes. The club he belongs to organizes a dinner get-together for the holidays at a local restaurant. The guys who put this thing together are ex-military, retired, and work to make it a nice occasion FOR ADULTS. One of the younger club members brought his two under-ten children, one of which was a baby that screamed more or less continuously throughout dinner. The older daughter insisted on being a part of the "gift exchange", which are typically items that would not interest a ten-year-old. (I received holiday-themed pot holders and a kitchen towel, for instance.) Did I mention that the baby was screaming? Still?

Believe it or not, there are people who love children, but do not want someone else's children in their face during a social event meant for adults. If you bring little Pwecious to an office party, adult cocktail hour, a funeral or other event during which MOST people would know it would be best to leave the child at home with a sitter, you'd best prepare yourself for (at the very least,) polite and pointed comments.

We specifically rearranged our holiday visit to avoid dealing with our six-year-old twin nephews, and their exceedingly permissive and clueless mother. To echo the thoughts of the grandmother above, our grandmother attempted to speak to our SIL about the misbehavior of her children. The SIL was soooo OUTRAGED she screamed at our 85-year-old grandmother. Obviously, raising five kids of her own (and at least four of her own grandchildren,) didn't qualify her to speak to her great-grandson's misbehavior.

It's always comical to me to read these threads. After all, we're smart enough to subsidize other people's children with our tax dollars, but God forbid you mention that perhaps Britteneigh or Conerrrr shouldn't climb on the furniture with muddy feet, pull the dog's tail, scream while family members are attempting to have a quiet conversation, or order a dirty martini at the office party they weren't invited to in the first place. We must be "depressed", or "intolerant". No. We're tired of enduring the discounting and nasty comments because we expect the same behavior WE were instructed was appropriate as children, and we sure as hell don't see it now.

[pnwmom]

190. Yesterday was Christmas. How many babysitters would want to work on Christmas?

How many parents would leave their children on that day?

You seem not to have read her list of complaints very carefully. It's pretty extreme. Some examples are here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=72473

Also, it's not mental illness to be sad over the holidays -- this is a very common time to be down.

[liberalhistorian]

270. Considering that the OP calls those of us who

are parents "breeders" and never seems to miss an opportunity to bash children and parents, her OP really shouldn't be any kind of a surprise.

Children and the obese are the two groups here where outright hatred and bigotry is still blatantly permitted. Utterly disgusting.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

227. Excellent points! Reminded me that my sis has kids and she doesn't want to put up with other

people's brats.

[MattBaggins]

246. Please get over yourself

It's the repeated child bashing over and over and over and over that get's old.

If it's all you do then spare us the poor me spiel. Can I have back all the money I've subsidized you with?

[Missy Vixen]

416. I've been out of high school for thirty years.

>child bashing<

The OP mentioned that she doesn't care for catering to the small fry at a social occasion she was attending. I wasn't aware that mentioning that is "child bashing". Then again, I've met more than a few parents who admitted they were grateful for even an hour away from the kids. I guess they're "child bashing", too.

>Can I have back all the money I've subsidized you with?<

I've been out of high school for over 30 years. I went to a private college. I'll be more than happy to repay that money the moment you repay the amount of your family's tax deductions over the years.

[DevonRex]

102. I think you're talking about those really obnoxious

kids and parents that we've all seen from time to time. I have a relative who was raised that way and sociopathic isn't too strong a description now.

[retread]

112. We now have more children in our penal system than at any time in our history,

and not a day goes past without someone demanding that even more should be sent inside - often for behaviour that wouldn't have warranted a police caution only a generation ago.

[CreekDog]

131. that you could suggest a child be left out of Christmas day/dinner apart from its mom is heartless

sure bratty kids annoy me and what's charming to their parent isn't always to me.

that said, the context of what you're saying suggests that i'd rather have an obnoxious kid at my house than you.

still trying to get over the idea that you would expect a parent to be apart from their child on Christmas so that they could spend time with you.



particularly reacting to this line that you wrote:

"-Parents that include their kids in everything, adult conversations, bring kids to your dinner that you’ve made very clear is a grown ups dinner, etc. "

[uppityperson]

137. Adults that wants kids hidden away while are spoiled themselves aggravate me

(Suggest you make your comments directly in the thread you're parroting. Locking ~ pinto}
Adults that wants kids hidden away while are spoiled themselves aggravate me

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My goodness, I never cease to be amazed at how some adults think kids are the devil's answer to the planet and they are god's answer. This applies mostly (I'd say almost exclusively) to people who aren't parents.

Today I had to spend some time with one of these adults because the adult felt that any child in public is so awful, no matter if they were playing quietly, running around hopped up on christmas excitement or even "sit(ing) and listen to adult conversations" while they were so wonderful.

That adult was loud, boisterous, not particularly bright, and (as if all the rest were not enough), NOT fascinating in the least. What the adult felt was grown up behavior on her own part was merely a tremendous capacity for being obnoxious and unpleasant.

However, this person was oohing and aahing about he r own (heck, who else was going to ooh and aah for this walking, talking obnoxia?), and trying to elicit our oohs and aahs, which were not forthcoming. I plastered what I refer to as, 'the look of the insane' smile on my face and pretended I was a robot. No oohs and aahs would come from me.

Why do adults (GENERALLY (NON) MOMS) inflict this on other adults? These adults behave as if they wanted to be your friend, but then by golly, they're HELL-BENT on you loving their bratty, spoiled selves. I think these non-moms don't really want to have friends. They just want to have an AUDIENCE for themselves.

Since I'm on a rant about adults that do this, here's a tiny list of these adults that aggravate me. Let me know if any of you out there agree with me on this:


-Adults that interrupt conversations between them and another adult

-Adults that allow roommates to run and answer the phone every time and waste your time talking trash, when the reason you called is to talk to the person you called, not entertain the roommate

-Adults that won't allow their kids to quietly sit and listen to adult conversations

-Adults that are in the office and bug the heck out of you

-Adults that stop a whole huge line at the supermarket or anywhere at all because they want to talk to the employee taking orders or checking out

-Adults that come to your house and let them make a frikkin’ mess everywhere and touch every single thing, even BREAK your things.

-Adults that insist on performing for you, and are seeking for you to applaud like a trained seal no matter how horrific the performance was

-Adults that go on for endless hours about their accomplishments

-Adults that side with their partners against, well, just about everybody

-Adults that behave like animals in stores and restaurants, talking on cell phones, drinking too much

-Adults that behave as if they were God's answer to the world, and insist you acknowledge that

WAKE UP, PEOPLE! STOP TRYING TO GET ME TO ADORE YOU!

Okay, now that I got that out of my system, all I want to add is that I think treating anyone like some sort of perfect beings, or royalty, and putting them first 24/7 is the perfect recipe for creating narcissistic and perhaps sociopathic adults.

[seabeyond]

151. i was thinking of the adult that is troublesome, boring, obnoxious, show off, ect.... myself. nt

[PassingFair]

138. People who want no noise, no interruptions and no messes should stay at home.

With their windows drawn and earplugs in place.

Life is messy.
Life can be noisy.
Children ARE our future.

Personally, I'm sick of control freaks that
can't deal with anything that makes them
uncomfortable.

Well, I'm sick of control freaks that
complain that they aren't in control
of others and their environment.

Really.

Wall yourselves off.



http://dlisted.com/2011/12/26/open-post-hosted-worlds-youngest-toilet-aficionado

On edit: This little doll-baby can interrupt my Christmas festivities any time.
I wouldn't care HOW many times he flushed, and, as a former child, I love
all children (even my brother's kids!)

[pa28]

162. Controlling adults make me miserable.

They'll keep going until everything in their environment is *just right* as they see it. If they can't take the real world maybe walling themselves off is a solution that would make everybody happier.

I know the odd misbehaving child is a lot less offensive to me than an obnoxious grown up.

[Missy Vixen]

171. Here's the point

When someone without children states they are holding a dinner FOR ADULTS, YOU are the rude one for insisting on bringing your offspring. They have stated their preference. They have as much right to peaceful enjoyment as you do to demand everyone love your kids. If you don't want to attend without children, don't. If you bring them, you've just told the person in question (who's planned for a gathering excluding those under 18 at the least, and most likely under 21,) your needs and wants supersede theirs.

If it's dinner around the kitchen table, great. Bring your kids. If it's a cocktail party for someone's 40th birthday, I did not invite your kids for a reason. (Here's a hint: There are host laws in Washington State, and the drinking age is 21. We have had the experience of catching someone else's teenager helping herself to a glass of champagne in our home after her "parent" told her it was just fine. Uh, no it's not.)

After reading the comments of the parents on this thread, I can pretty much surmise who it is that's presiding over the kids we see in public or at social gatherings that don't have the slightest idea of how to act.

[PassingFair]

176. I agree with you. That was not the OP's "point" however...

People are perfectly within their rights to have
"adults only" parties or weddings or whatever.

It is their own problem, however, if children at
family gatherings or restaurants or where EVER,
shatter their fragile equilibrium.


This poster was talking about a family Xmas gathering.

Medication for their fragile nervous conditions
might be indicated.

After reading the comments of control freaks on this thread, I can pretty much surmise who it is that hated themselves as children
and don't have the slightest idea of who ruined their outlooks on life and living.

[pnwmom]

199. You are surmising incorrectly.

People who understand and are attentive to the physical and emotional needs of children are more, not less, likely to have children who behave well in public.

You also are making a different point than the OP . Of course, an adult cocktail party is not an event to which a child should be brought. But the OP was complaining about a party on Christmas DAY, and didn't give the slightest hint that this was an adults only occasion. The OP was also complaining about such innocuous practices as allowing a child to answer the phone in her own home or to talk with the clerk at the store. Sorry, but children need to learn to socialize with the rest of the world, and this is part of how they learn.

[Broderick]

141. Starting to get a sense that you regret your choices and are trying to justify them

I don't know why, but it seems you comment a lot on parental choices and I remember a thread or two wherein you try hard to justify your thoughts on not having children.


Not really my business, but I just get the sense. Maybe it's too late for you to reverse life's decisions.

[Missy Vixen]

172. That's interesting

The most vociferous "my children are wonderful, and the childfree are Satan incarnate" are inevitably those who are the most unhappy about their life's choices.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

228. Isn't it funny? And doesn't it become clear by the posts who is a parent of a complete brat, and

who is a parent that doesn't inflict a brat on others?

[distantearlywarning]

233. Yes. I noticed that too.

[uppityperson]

258. Since it is clear to you, am I a parent of a complete brat or one who doesn't inflict my brat on

others?

I see that either way, you consider all children "brats".

[pnwmom]

347. The only thing that becomes clear is who actually read your whole post

and who just read the title.

[Puglover]

587. That made me laugh out loud.

[JI7]

312. well, it's not really too late as she has changed her mind and wants kids now

[Iggo]

145. replying to bookmark

[Adsos Letter]

147. Me too.

[Neoma]

161. I dislike your list, but I will tell you this.

Children are very pleasant to be around for me. Unless I'm babysitting them for 6 hours straight.

I have this ...acquaintance that's trying to make more time for me, but ends up shoving her two year old twins in my direction once and awhile. I love them, but I think they have a problem. Mainly, that they watch TV. Sure, it makes them sit quietly for long periods of time. But it also revs them up to be quite a handful! I understand why she does this, she's a single mother who doesn't have the time of day... but babies need interaction with people, not television.

It's my theory that this makes children very irritable... I always think back on my mom's explanation that when I started reading books, I was very quiet...and she'd peak at me in my room and was very pleased, then went back to finally accomplishing whatever it was she was doing. To me also, the 'seen not heard' thing is a horrible way to raise your kids. Simply because there's too many questions in the world to ask.

[pnwmom]

203. You're right -- babies and children need interactions with a variety of people.

The TV is a very poor substitute.

[EFerrari]

175. My problem with this thread is the narrow focus.

An adult that uses kids in this way, to trample all over other people, doesn't change into someone else when the kids aren't present. They might be more annoying with the kids but they don't suddenly become considerate of other people just because they are alone, in my experience anyway.

[pnwmom]

193. Very true. n/t

[fishwax]

261. good point

[Initech]

177. Oh yes.

"-Parents that go on for endless hours about their kids’ accomplishments "
"-Parents that behave as if their kid were God's answer to the world, and insist you acknowledge that "

These drive me *ESPECIALLY* crazy. When parents do this it makes every single person in the room feel inadequate. Demitri Martin had a great joke about how much you care about your kids, and how much we care about your kids. (it was low).

"-Parents that bring their kids into the office and don’t keep them from bugging the heck out of you "

This one reminds me of a Bill Maher new rule "New rule: If you get to bring your kid to work, I get to bring a Mexican mariachi band. The difference is that for $20 I can get the mariachi band to go away and annoy someone else."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

229. ROFL! This is true. You can tell the mariachi band to go away. nt

[MineralMan]

182. Completely uncalled for.

-100

[uppityperson]

289. I don't know, rather rude to be let stand, true.

[LaraMN]

187. Amen! And I have a very similar list I will share:

I call it my "tiny list of things adults do that aggravate me" :

-Adults that include themselves in everything, adult conversations, invite themselves to your dinner that you’ve made very clear is a private dinner, etc.

-Adults that interrupt conversations between other people

-Adults that come into the office and bug the heck out of you

-Adults that stop a whole huge line at the supermarket or anywhere at all because they want to talk to the employee taking orders or checking out

-Adults that come to your house and make a frikkin’ mess everywhere and touch every single thing, even BREAK your things.

-Adults that insist on performing for you, and are seeking for you to applaud like a trained seal no matter how horrific the performance was

-Adults that go on for endless hours about their accomplishments

-Adults that insist on their own agenda and point of view against those of, well, just about everybody

-Adults that behave and run like animals through stores

-Adults that behave as if they were God's answer to the world, and insist you acknowledge that

-Adults that can't ignore anything that interferes with their own intricately crafted reality and circumstances. Like the presence of other human beings-- adult or juvenile.

WAKE UP, ADULTS! STOP TRYING TO GET ME TO ADORE YOU AND YOUR FANCY CHEESES AND COLLECTION OF RECTUM-STRAIGHTENING RODS.

[pnwmom]

194. +1000. n/t

[LeftyMom]

196. It sounds like the problem is you.

Otherwise, somebody's kids would manage to be polite and charming enough for you.

Now what you need to realize is that kids learn to be socially appropriate adults by... interacting with adults. If this bothers you it's your problem, not theirs. And because you're an adult you need to get over it already, because you're being ridiculous. You're ranting about a child engaging in childlike behavior at Christmas, for heaven's sake. If you want child-free Christmas, go to a bar.

[frazzled]

197. I'm am in utter disbelief

That you would take the time (and it must have taken quite some time) to write this ultra-long screed against children and their parents. It really is just beyond me. This doesn't seem to be about a particular incident (we've all had that one incident on the plane with the screaming toddler, and the parent who doesn't seem to be able to do anything about it) but about everything that could possibly pop into your head for thinking children are evil little brats and their parents besotted, indulgent idiots. The anger (and overblown hyperbole about children and parents, stereotyping them in the crudest terms) in this post is truly ... well ... revealing.

And this is a supposedly liberal board? How can anyone claiming to be a liberal harbor such attitudes towards a goodly portion of the population, and the future citizens of this nation? These bratty children are someday going to be the doctors, lawyers, legislators, and caretakers who make the society you live in functional.

If you really hate kids so much (which you appear to do, and that is your right), then please, just don't associate with people who have them. But you don't own the stores or restaurants: it's a free country. You can hate your encounters with these little future "sociopaths," but you'll just have to live with it.

I suppose you were the perfectly behaved little angel as a small child, and that your parents never felt proud about your accomplishments. Remember: you were a child once, too. But I hope that someone with attitudes like yours never hated you so much.

You know what makes me upset? Stories like this:

A 7-year-old boy was listed in critical condition Sunday after being shot in the head while attending a Christmas gathering in Gary, Ind.

Leonard Cobb was reportedly playing a game in the living room during a family celebration when shots were fired into the home from outside, the Chicago Sun-Times reports. ...

NBC also reports that the shots were fired from across the street, making it unclear whether the home was the shooter's target.

Leonard was in critical condition at University of Chicago Comer Children’s Hospital Sunday afternoon, the Sun-Times reports.

“He was totally innocent,’’ King told the Tribune. “He was just trying to have some fun.’’

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/25/gary-boy-7-shot-in-the-he_n_1169636.html?ref=chicago

I wish there were a prize for the Grinchiest post-Christmas post ever. I'd give you the medal!

[pnwmom]

206. Thanks for the reality check. n/t

[FourScore]

221. Exactly. n/t

[DesertRat]

320. Amen

[lumberjack_jeff]

383. +1 n/t

[tpsbmam]

404. VERY well said! nt

[downwardly_mobile]

201. IRRITATE, not aggravate! PLEASE!

To aggravate essentially means to make a bad situation worse. So by saying kids "aggravate" you, you're virtually conceding what all your critics on this thread are saying -- that you are a miserable person whom kids make even more miserable. You don't want to say that! What you really mean to say is that some kids IRRITATE you.

On a side note, I agree with the substance of your post. But people who misuse the English language can irritate me!

[fishwax]

264. "aggravate" has been used in that sense for about 400 years

People only started complaining about it much more recently (say 140 years or so ago). I see no reason to give in to such complaints just yet, particularly outside of formal prose

On edit: Welcome to DU, downwardly_mobile!

[Quartermass]

205. There's a lot of stuff here.

There's an awful lot of stupidity on both sides.

FORSOOTH! THE BLAME GAME IS AFOOT!

[HappyMe]

217. If you are invited somewhere where there will be children, then stay home.

There are hideous brats out there, which is mostly the parent's fault.

I have no desire in the least for you to 'adore' my sons, let alone come within 100 ft of them

[sarcasmo]

219. Nice rant, I am guessing a relatives kid.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

231. Nope. nt

[Sky Masterson]

222. I think it's rude to have kids.

Why do people insist on plopping out these little copies of themselves?
It's selfish and annoying.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

230. You're right. It's incredibly selfish! nt

[Sky Masterson]

239. I was joking

.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

268. I wasn't. I'm an observer. nt

[Dorian Gray]

363. That you agreed

with that post shows where you are coming from.

I'm going to say, though, kudos on starting a post-Christmas flame fest. 300+ responses with an "I hate kids" screed. Riling up people is an art form that you seem to have perfected with this one topic.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

366. I didn't lie. I told the truth about my choices. Yet you think I have no right to make choices

Interesting. You, however, do give yourself the leeway to make choices, even if some might disagree with you.

Amazing how some need to feel self-justified.

[SomethingFishy]

608. That is completely insane.

Having kids is the least selfish thing you ever do in life. Once another life depends on you, they come first. No matter what.

Frankly the only selfish thing I see here is your OP. If you don't like kids and parents, avoid them. I'm sure we aren't to happy with you either.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

609. This is not the topic of the OP, but yes, having kids is selfish...

Right off the bat I can think of a few. I could probably think of a whole slew of reasons why having kids is selfish.

First, because there are already SO MANY children dreaming of someone adopting them, but they will reach 18 with no family. They'll never have a family because of the insistence of all those parents who wanted to have a kid from their own loins.

Second, it adds even more population to an already-overpopulated planet. And if the idea is, 'well, others are having kids already!," well, that's a selfish idea.

Third, because by having kids, you are choosing to create something to busy your life, instead of dedicating your life to helping those who are already here and in need, the old, the ill, the helpless, the mentally disabled, etc.

[ThatsMyBarack]

237. I have two sons....

With pointy ears, four feet, and long tails!

[CreekDog]

238. Wow, what a brat! Was he correcting your grammar too?

[Number23]

242. You got in just before the wire. Nastiest, Dumbest Post of 2011

Well done.

[etherealtruth]

248. I love being around children

I love being around parents that adore their children.

Every now and again I see a child that has not been taught manners or civil behavior by their parents ...but, that is relatively uncommon and is usually due to lack of manners and unsociable behavior noted within the parents.

People are far from perfect ... I have found that I am a much happier person accepting that and not letting anything but the most egregious behavior of others bother me.

[pnwmom]

251. I attended a family dinner at the home of a control freak once.

She was the new second wife of an uncle. (I could hardly call her an aunt.)

My three children were all on their best behavior, as was I, but I did make one mistake. I didn't think to tell my 6 year old son that the rules of the uncle's house might be different now with the new wife. So when he opened the refrigerator door to look for milk (we had encouraged him to be self-sufficient), she got very upset.

The next time there was a family gathering with a bunch of cousins, she insisted that none of the children were allowed inside, EVER. This was over the course of a few hours including a meal served on picnic tables. When my son told me he had to go to the bathroom, I took him by the hand and started to lead him inside. One of the other mothers stopped me to remind me that our kids weren't supposed to be inside. I told her I was sure that there was an exception for a child who needed to use the bathroom, but she disagreed. I took my son inside anyway. I was confident that the uncle's wife wouldn't object to my son using the bathroom. I didn't think the other mother's solution -- allowing her sons to relieve themselves in the side yard -- was the better choice.

[Skittles]

253. it's Parents WHO (er, I think)

and I agree - people are fucking obnoxious about their kids

[Sarah Ibarruri]

263. Definitely. I certainly think some are. nt

[Ikonoklast]

262. I, for one, really appreciate posts such as this.

They make me love my children even more, and serve as an object lesson to them that not all adults are rational.

[fishwax]

266. I spend a fair amount of time around kids, but I've never encountered most of what you mention

[steve2470]

269. Being a "part-time father", my situation is halfway between full-time parent and childless

Yes, I've been around a few kids who literally DESTROYED my office, damaging things. Yes, that really annoyed me but I had to put up with it to a point because it was my job. I didn't have anything very expensive in my office, so it was no big deal.

Otherwise, I LOVE being around kids. I really missed parts of my son growing up because he was usually with his mother. A kid has to be super-obnoxious to really get on my nerves. I don't mind a minute of talking to the child on the phone. I expect it if I call someone with children.

Badly behaved adults ? Yes, I have little tolerance for those.

[October]

271. While I don't like obnoxious adults or children

I do hope one or two of these kids are indeed God's answer to the world... we need it.

As a parent, I've been complimented endlessly on my children's behavior. My little guy even was awarded a "good manners" prize at school. (They made up the award... it hadn't existed.)

Not to brag or impose my children on anyone here -- there are good kids and parents out here. It dawned on me by these compliments indicated my children's nice behavior surprises a lot of people.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

274. It must feel good to know that adults enjoy being with your kids

I'm sure other kids love being with your kids as well.

There's no doubt there's a big difference between kids.

I can't imagine unruly kids enjoy the negative reaction they elicit from other kids and adults, but maybe this is the only way these kids are able to get attention. If unruly kids' parents aren't aware of this, it's because they're blinded to it, or they actually enjoy their behavior.

I read not long ago that kids raised without rules never know if they're succeeding or failing. Anything goes. Everything is okay. They don't learn what successful behavior is, and are not given a clue about it.

[onpatrol98]

574. That is definitely bragging!

Definitely awesome, too. I would imagine most of us are very involved parents. It really makes a difference.

[October]

660. lol! Sorry. <blush>

It just so happens that I had recently received compliments regarding my children... so it was FRESH in my mind.

Seems I made a typo in my post, though... and I apologize for the lack of clarity.

I meant to suggest that it seems a lot of people are almost "surprised" by my children's good manners. Civility has been eroding in our society of political discord.

Good to know of other involved parents still demonstrating good manners to their offspring, as well.

Peace.

[lost-in-nj]

273. my kids were brought up in a house full of adults....

we had 5 adults living in the house and so many friends that visited that my children grew up being treated like adults....
we treated our children like people (albeit children).. playing with them, teaching them right and wrong and treating them like people and not toys. they learned how to act with others.... I also know kids have their bad days to, not everyone can be perfect every day no matter how old you are....
I'll bet you have your off days to and aren't very pleasant either even now....

I don't mean to pry but just what was your childhood like? you brought it up first so I am just wondering how you were as a small child? did your parents ever tell you? did people complain about you???

my kids are older now and I have a grandson that is being brought up like my kids were....
no problems there, yes there will be bad days... but no one can predict when and where these will happen.....

even with adults..... some of us still get the "rant rants" as we used to call them... sorry you feel this way..... look around you.... we were all children once... even you

and I guess by your post everything was perfect for you as a child


just wondering

lost

[Sarah Ibarruri]

275. Nothing is perfect on earth. :)

However, I don't recall my parents behaving as if the rest of the planet was my nanny, or as if the rest of the planet was my house, to do with as I wished.

[lost-in-nj]

557. wow where in my post did I say the world was my childrens nanny???

or where did I say the planet was my house???

I guess my friends were just a little more open and caring than yours when they came to visit.... they did not take care of my kids....
my husband and I took care of our kids...
my friends just loved them....

my friends came to my house with the knowledge my children were a huge part of our lives.... and accepted it....

they love my kids to this day and my kids are 34 and 28 ..... and I have a 10 month old grandson that they all spoil...

I feel sorry for people that don't have a support system that extends past the parents.....

you seem to twist posts to read the way you want them to..... I'm sorry for that
I respect anyone that does not want kids.... it really is a personal choice.... but so is having kids...
you are no better than I am and I am no better than you are.....

btw you still didn't answer my original question

lost

[Sarah Ibarruri]

558. I don't lack respect for people who have kids. I lack respect for

people who are irresponsible and allow their kids to do anything to anyone anywhere, and don't even tell their kids to stop it. I will never have respect for those parents. Ever.

[ZombieHorde]

276. Funny. I think you simply hate kids.

Your annoyance is a proper punishment. Sometimes natural consequences seem very fitting.

So funny.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

286. Here's the good thing about this -

I owe no one anything. I can shape my life as I desire.

If I don't want conversational interceptions for 15 minutes with kids (of mothers that use that for a time out away from the kid for themselves), I don't have to have them.

If I don't want to discuss my life, my work, my love, my dreams and hopes with other people's kids, I don't have to.

As for having people over... is there a law that says I MUST have brats to my house? Where does it say that? I must've missed it!

I lead a rather nice life, and I'd much rather go out and help the homeless or work with Occupy (something I feel has tremendous value) than to be forced by the parent of a brat to listen to the brat, or watch him/her as he/she engages in destructive behavior (something which has no value at all).

Reading the comments from people who have disagreed with me has caused me to reach a conclusion on this question which I've pondered for so long. The folks who agreed with me simply agreed with me. The ones that disagreed, and believe that I have some sort of bizarre obligation to endure brat behavior for no other reason than they wish me to endure it, made me realize that I don't have to endure it even for 1 minute.

So this thread has been very educational for me. In that regard, thanks!

[ZombieHorde]

356. Hilarious. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

368. Hilarious is the fact that you haven't read through the responses to the moms that disagree with you

THAT is hilarious.

[ZombieHorde]

418. Anti-puppy rants are funny.

Anti-kitten rants are funny.

Anti-peace rants are funny.

Anti-tree rants are funny.

You made a thread that refers to children as brats and monsters, and you even expressed distaste when a single mother brought her child to a Christmas gathering. That is hilarious.

[LanternWaste]

384. I imagine many people believe themselves clever enough

I imagine many people believe themselves clever enough to know what the "proper punishment" is for other adults. I imagine that's a natural consequence, too.

[ZombieHorde]

415. You imagine correct. Good job. nt

[LanternWaste]

449. Not really a job either...

Not really a job either...

[tpsbmam]

280. Wow, so many broad brushes on this thread!

The characters of people with bratty kids & the characters of people who don't have kids......who knew they were each such narrowly defined personalty & character types! Learn something everyday!


Look, I never had kids and I don't like spending lots of time around kids who are acting in bratty ways. But there are children I thoroughly enjoy -- I have one for whom I babysat for 2+ years and I adore that little girl! Long story, but it was basically a barter -- friend/neighbors needed childcare for their little one (age 2 when this began) and I needed work done around my house -- mowing, handy"man" kinds of things, etc. So I babysat for this little one about 3 days a week for two years, until she had a little sister followed shortly by a little brother. Forget it -- one was my limit! LOL "My" little one is now 9 and, as I tell her regularly, I love her "as big as the sky." And I do! When she was younger and out with me, she'd occasionally act up -- the first time she did it, I gave her a choice -- behave and we'll stay out and have fun or keep doing what she was doing and we'd go home. She only had to keep acting up once -- she quickly learned that I meant what I said and we went home, immediately! Thereafter, her choice was to calm down and enjoy our time out eating or shopping or whatever.

Do I really dislike being around loud children who have few manners and parents who appear oblivious to their obnoxiousness? Yeah, I really do. But to say that kids shouldn't be around adult conversations, etc etc, I couldn't disagree with more. Kids learn from being around adult conversations. My parents were involved in politics and very much involved in the world around us. They marched with MLK, they knew Eisenhower & the Kennedys and so much more. You BET I learned TONS from being around adult conversations!! When I was 5, we watched the Kennedy-Nixon debate on TV. Yep, as a family all gathered around our one black & white tv and watched. My parents were, at the time, registered Republicans (they both later switched to Dem). Being 5, I assumed that meant I was also Republican. So, after the debate I turned to Mom and asked, "If I'm a Republican, can I vote for a Democrat?" She, of course, responded yes and asked me why. "Because I want to vote for Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Nixon sounds mean." But where the hell do you think I learned all of that? How did I even know about Republicans & Democrats at 5-years-old? From listening to adult conversations!!

I like hearing what kids have to say. I like hearing what they're learning in and about the world and what they have to say about it. I'm fascinated about the kinds of things they take away from the adult conversations they hear and how their vision of the world is being shaped. And, frankly, when they learn right-wing bullshit, it gives me an opportunity to challenge that (without belittling or commenting about the adults who've imparted those messages, as they're usually their family members).


And the message to kids that they should shut-up and just be lumps of protoplasm when adults are speaking can be damaging. I came across an example on Christmas Eve. I went to a friend's house and a 14-year-old was there -- son of my friend's new BF. He was the only kid there. He has issues and is a pretty isolated kid -- no friends to speak of, among other things. Every time he tried to add to the conversation, he was shut down by his father. It really began to bother me. He was looking down most of the time and seemed like a really unhappy kid, particularly after he was admonished. I was sitting next to him so I engaged him in conversation -- I asked him about what he likes in school and for fun, etc etc. The kid lit up and had a great conversation with me -- he was engaged, had good eye-contact and was clearly delighted someone took interest in him. When I was leaving, I thanked him for talking to me about his interests and told him I enjoyed it, which I did indeed. He then thanked me and said, "you're a good listener." That surprised me coming from a 14-year-old. It was also striking to me -- I bet he doesn't get much of that.

So, do I agree with kids not listening to adult conversations? No, absolutely not. Yeah, of course there are the inappropriate ones -- no, I don't want them listening to those (e.g., many kinds of sex talk), but a blanket rule? Hell no. Do I want them to be seen but not heard? Nope. No, I don't like it when they're being bratty & obnoxious. But I enjoy their laughter, their squeals as they play -- what a marvelous sound! Damn, I'd be sad never to hear that again. Yeah, I hate it when the kid at the next table in a restaurant is having a tantrum. But when they're not creating bedlam but they're being a little silly & giggly, I love it!

I dunno, SI -- I'm glad I don't feel the same as you. I think my world is richer for it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

281. If I wanted to invite a child to my conversations, I would, as would you.

I'm certain you do not share your every concern with children, and neither do I, so why would you insist that I do?

I don't.

And I won't.

So if someone insists that my call back to them requires a conversation with their child for their relief and for their child's entertainment, there are people who might be better suited to provide that. They're called babysitters.

I'm sure this is something that would not sit well with you either, but it doesn't happen to you, so hey, you're cool with bashing me for it.

[tpsbmam]

290. Where the hell did I suggest you should share your every concern with kids?

WTF did you get THAT? I never "insisted" anything of the kind! I don't care if you share anything with kids.....I don't care if you stay as far away from them as you can get. Sounds like it'd be a good idea for your peace of mind! Where the hell did you get that I 'insisted" you share every concern with kids?

You have people in your life who "insist" your call back to them "requires a conversation with their child for their relief and their child's entertainment?" Wow. I know a whole bunch of people whose kids answer the phone and engage in conversation before I talk to their parents. No one ever "insisted" I do so! The kids answer the phone....I spend a few minutes talking to them before getting their parents. If I really hated it, I would immediately ask the kid to hand the phone to his/her parent -- no one forces me to actually engage the kid in conversation!

Scheme of things.....this is NOT a big deal IMO. With some of the shit I've faced in my life and the big shit that goes on in the world around me, getting exercised about spending a few minutes talking to a kid isn't something I'm going to do! And, like I said, I'm open to hearing what they have to say -- I find it interesting and sometimes incredibly amusing. If you don't, so be it.

I'm sorry you don't like it when kids answer the phone. Guess you have to deal with it with those people who do that or just put up with it! In my life, it's not a big deal and I rather enjoy it when the kids answer. Each to his or her own.

[pnwmom]

349. No, they're not called babysitters. They're called "people who treat children like the human beings

that they are."

Would you be ranting and raving if a friend's husband or mother answered the phone and tried to converse with you? I doubt it -- but maybe you would. A child deserves to be treated with the same respect.

[pnwmom]

313. Good for you for engaging with that 14 year old.

But what a sad story.

[tpsbmam]

400. Thanks. Yeah, the kid broke my heart.

He was described by my friend as "very immature. He's enrolled in online school -- he doesn't attend school and doesn't seem to interact with anyone his age, or with many people for that matter. He told me he has "behavioral problems." He seemed like a sweet kid. I could easily see why he doesn't interact much with peers his age -- he'd be a little awkward (and, yes, a little immature) interacting with that age group. He is reportedly wonderful with young kids, including my friend's 3 kids ages 3, 5 & 7 (they were at Dad's for Xmas). That's nothing to sneeze at! That's a very good sign. How can the kid learn to interact if he's so isolated and shut up when among adults? Granted, the isolation may be due to problems he had with social interactions, but still....the poor kid can't learn to be amongst other people if the adults keep this up. Among other things, he needs to have what I saw as quite a number of assets acknowledged -- that doesn't seem to be happening. My friend sucks at positive reinforcement of her kids -- there's very little acknowledgment of the things the do right/well, only the bad stuff. I've tried and tried to change that! I even set up a behavioral program for home for my little sweetie. She reportedly acted out a lot at home -- she VERY rarely did it with me! She reminded me that I put her in time out.....3 times according to her. Three times in a few years! And that's pretty reflective of the amount of time she acted out with me. My friend reported it "didn't work." Yeah it didn't work because SHE didn't do it -- my urging to use positive reinforcement went nowhere -- only the negative is pointed out. I see that happening with this 14-year- old too -- sad.

Frankly, from what I saw, the problems are mostly with the father and now my friend! The kid needs, among other things, someone who treats him with respect and conveys that he's valued, including his opinions. He did talk a great deal about his love for Legos, which on the surface seems immature. But I've seen some pretty amazing Lego structures and he talked about some pretty cool things he was building/had built (examples below).

The BF lives about an hour away. I hope I encounter the kid more -- I'd love to continue that with him. Research repeatedly shows that even one adult who provides positive "prosocial" experiences for the kid are the most important points of resiliency for kids who grow up in families with less than optimal environments for kids. Unfortunately, an adult that a kid encounters infrequently probably isn't enough: "The most important protective resource for development is no surprise, it is a strong relationship with a competent, caring, prosocial adult." I hope the parenting I saw was an anomaly -- I doubt it -- or the kid has that "competent, caring, prosocial adult" in his life.



This church is incredible!:







(Many more photos at artist Amy Huges' website.)


Edward Hopper



Magritte

[pnwmom]

474. I read a book on this topic

I think it was called "Resilient Adults" -- and it was about children growing up in extremely dysfunctional homes who ended up thriving (in the long term, but usually by their thirties) because of the support they had gotten from someone else along the way -- a coach, a parent's friend, a teacher -- someone who gave them hope that there was a way out.

There was some misery in my home growing up, and it was my grandparents and other relatives who gave me the support I needed. I wish every child could have that.

I hope you find a way to help this boy. All my good wishes to both of you!

[tpsbmam]

594. Yep, I'm familiar with that book -- that's the principle, backed by sound research

For me, it was my beloved grandmother. I realized one day when my sister was about to visit for the first time (since I moved to NC and away from the Northeast, I've seen family members only a few times in the past 7 years) I had NO pictures of family around except for a couple of pictures of my parents and DOZENS of pictures of my grandmother and her ancestors (I have 2 great ancestor walls! Everyone who comes into the house spends a long time looking at them. I don't have those pix of Dad's family --there's just one of his father on the ancestor walls.) LOL Kind of sad, but it is what it is.

Your kids are lucky to have a Mom who gets all of this!

[pnwmom]

598. I just reread your first post here and realized we have something else in common.

I also remember watching the Nixon-Kennedy debates with my family when I was 5. And having opinions!

Children who aren't encouraged to talk to adults miss out on so much. I'm always so surprised when I hear "progressives" spewing that authoritarian "seen but not heard" trope.

And you're right about something else -- adults with that attitude miss out on as much as the children they're around.

In my life, I had one set of wonderful grandparents and, also, two lovely great-aunts who had never married or had children. Those women meant the world to me. Being childless doesn't make a person bad with kids -- sometimes those people are the most attentive and caring. Like you, with the 14 year old.

[tpsbmam]

647. Well, and my profession helps.....

I don't like to broadcast it for the obvious reasons and since I've had so much cognitive slippage thanks to 25 years of MS having its way with my brain, but I was a medical psychologist/neuropsychologist. I worked mostly with adults and, once settled in the profession, I didn't work with little kids (I knew a couple who were incredible with little kids), but I loved working with pre-teens & teens. I got them when they were in the hospital all banged up after doing some damn fool thing or being the innocent victim of something or, sadly, with serious and sometimes terminal illnesses. Fabulous age group! I had excellent developmental psych training, did work at a children's hospital for 3 years when I was in grad school and actually co-taught two parenting classes with a colleague -- the grad school picked the two of us out. When I told them I didn't have any kids it didn't seem to matter -- I knew my stuff, was very good at family therapy with kids of all ages and I worked with kids a lot at that point. It doesn't hurt that I had a very successful babysitting business going starting at age 13! I hated church -- I learned I could get out of it by being one of the volunteers who worked in the church nursery, taking the younger kids & babies while their parents were in church. And it was an awesome place to drum up clients for my private babysitting business!

Wow, Kennedy-Nixon debates.....not many here have that claim to fame!

[johnaries]

283. "You're a sly one, Mr. Grinch..."

Although I will admit that some kids are spoiled, this rant tells me more about YOU than the kids you portrayed.

Go look in the f*cking mirror. Then post.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

284. Here's the thing, why does it bug you so much that I live my life as I desire?

That's the key question here.

I'm as certain as I'm typing here that you don't do what you don't want, so why are you so interested in modifying my wants and the way I shape my life?

Hm?

[murray hill farm]

362. Well..I agree with you!

I am a mother and a grandmother and a great grandmother...and a person too! My advice is to drop such parents from you social life as soon as possible and to let people into your life who respect your life and your home and your space. One time only is the time such an intrusion is allowed in my home. When a parent or grand parent brings a wild child into my and then just sits and smiles while the child continually interrupts or is allowed to touch and handle and break items in my home and it is up to me to to gently remove such breakable items from the child..over and over again..saying that I am sorry but "that" is not a toy...while the parent sits and watches, etc. These are people who will never be invited again..ever..to my home and my space. It is a matter of respect for others..no matter what the situation and allowing a child to act out in anothers home is an act of the parent who has no respect for you either. Bringing such a child into your home...or into a restaurant...and just allowing that sort of behavior is a choice on their part and is a sort of fuck you, just you deal with it, passive-aggressive behavior on the parents part. Deal with it only once...and then only include people without this menatlity into your life and into your space. In a restaurant, complain to the management and they will be thankful since it gives them some leverage when confronting the parent.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

367. Thank you, mom and grandma! You're right that parents who do this are saying fuck you to others

I'm generally very welcoming into my home, and have an undue amount of patience, but after reading the responses to my original post, I learned a great deal!

First, that parents are very different. Some have respect for others, and some don't care a rat's ass who their child is bugging, and that their child might be destroying the property of others.

Second, that parents who care what their child does and how their child behaves with others, ALSO would not tolerate other parents allowing their children to behave horribly with others.

[helderheid]

393. Maybe it's because her heart was 3 sizes too small?

[quakerboy]

285. To summarize this thread : People suck.

and they should all be locked in rooms where they will not be able to bother us.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

287. You got it wrong. Read this: I'm not anyone's nanny.

Particularly not the nanny of brats.

I sure hope that's clear.

If it isn't, I'll be glad to paraphrase!

[quakerboy]

333. I wasnt summarizing you, I was summarizing the entire thread.

I agree with you when it comes to ill behaved children who's parents are not acting as responsible parents while taking them into public. I wouldn't let my puppy off a leash inside someone else's home. If a family member I had brought were to get drunk and lose the ability to interact appropriately at a party, I would do my best to help moderate the outcome and to get them home so they could sleep it off. Why is a kid any different?

That said, I have a fairly liberal view of appropriate behavior. Kids genuinely having fun and not harming anyone, observing adult behavior quietly, etc, I have no problem with. Even if it gets a little loud or occasionally interrupts an adult conversation.

Then again there are plenty of adults (and not just those who are without children) who act like genuine asses in public. Im sure that some would even count me in that group based on certain instances. I knew a guy who liked to go to Olive Garden for a meal, and blow huge, hear it across the restaurant farts and belches that sounded like he was going to blow chunks. Not kidding on any part of that sentence. That's as bad as a screaming kid, although it was less continual than some.

But the overall summary of this thread, in its totality, would be "people suck, they should be locked in closets so they don't offend me".

The whole thing follows a very predictable "comment, offense, reactive comment, offense, hyperbolic comment, offense, repeat several hundred times" format. Apparently parents are easily offended by any criticism of children or parents, and people who have chosen not to be parents are easily offended by the (mis)behavior of children. Who would have guessed?

[Prism]

291. This thread makes me want to adopt

Because I think it gives childless people a real, real ugly name.

Eesh. I'll take a screaming toddler over a bitter adult just about any day of the week. At least the kid usually has an excuse.

And yep, I just spent all of yesterday around two screaming children (who had ear infections and were rather uncomfortable all day). It never crossed my mind - not a single time - to think the kind of nastiness displayed here much less speak it aloud.

I'll never understand what has gone so wrong in adult's life that a simple child can bring them to such elevated states of garment rending.

Yes, there is definitely some spoiling at work here.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

293. Actually, what's really interesting in this is the reaction from certain parents

who feel that I am somehow obligated to entertain their kid, talk to their kid, tolerate their kid as he/she breaks things around my house, and behave as nanny to their kid because they refuse to stop their kid from unruly behavior.

Clearly, I've touched a raw nerve out there of parents who are doing precisely these things, and it's interesting how they react when someone points it out. Betcha it's not the first time it's been pointed out to the parents who are disagreeing with me so vehemently. I'll bet it's routinely pointed out: Curb your kid.

The truth is that no one is obligated to tolerate bad behavior from unruly kids, and certainly not while the mother is standing right there refusing to stop bad behavior and seems to think her dear child is just incredibly adorable rather than the bratty kid she raised to be bratty. Henceforth, I will be one of the ones that will no longer tolerate bad behavior from bratty kids. I've been healed!!

[seabeyond]

298. i think pretty much everyone of us parents agree, we dont want you around our kids. really

it isnt a skin off my back or my childs. neither of us have to be liked by all.

[uppityperson]

302. My child sitting quietly listening to adults talk=brat. Gotcha.Indeed, that IS my child and and glad

of it for he learned how to sit quietly and listen, how to pay attention and learn from adults he associated with and now exhibits the ability to communicate well with others.

He also is civil enough to not refer to all children as "brats". As his mom, I'd not want him to be around you, healed or not.

[Prism]

304. I don't think that's a "raw nerve"

Sometimes, when people react vehemently, it's not because of bold truth-telling. Sometimes, people are reacting to someone coming off as a jerk.

Some kids are brats, some parents are poor, but this thread goes far, far beyond that. The hostility and bitterness of the subtext are so deep, you need a snorkel to meander through it.

I don't have kids, I am unlikely to, but the extreme over-reaction here and sheer intolerance on display runs quite a bit deeper than bratty kids, IMO.

The fact unabashed - even proud - hostility and intolerance towards children is rising with the Me Generation is not a coincidence in my eyes. I think some adults are a little too spoiled these days.

[pnwmom]

305. Children are naturally narcissistic, but it's something that they usually grow out of.

Unfortunately, some adults never do, and they are the most likely to resent children who compete with them for attention.

[polly7]

307. Oh, I don't really think that's fair.

[helderheid]

394. Clearly.

[EFerrari]

311. In my family, we learned it was our duty to spoil children

as much as possible before they went out into the world and learned how fucked up it was. I still don't think that's wrong.

[Prism]

597. I disagree a tiny bit

More and more, I'm seeing early twenty-somethings being released into a world they aren't entirely prepared for, so shielded have they been from the expectations and responsibilities awaiting them.

But I do think a baseline approach to child-rearing should at least not involve looking upon the tiny humans with nothing but distaste and hostility. People have friggin issues, yo. If you can't be kind to a child, who can you be kind to?

[flvegan]

294. This thread = awesome.

[frazzled]

323. This thread = nuts

Honestly, it's fine if someone dislikes children vehemently, and it's fine if they decide they don't want to have children (or associate with people who do).

What is not fine is to go on a virulent public rant broad-brushing both parents and children as a class of spoiled/bratty and indulgent/deluded people: it's tantamount to racism; let's call it "childism." It shouldn't be allowed on a liberal board like this. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten 50 alerts.

A post about a specific child or parent, a specific incident, would be fine (though boring): this kind of vicious diatribe against children and parents in general is tantamount to hate language.

[Quartermass]

300. There's a lot of generalizations on both sides.

[polly7]

321. There sure are.

Many of the residents in nursing homes where I worked were uneasy and agitated when children visited. Most of them had great grandchildren of their own, but rarely saw them anymore, even though I'm quite sure they loved them very much. On the days children did visit, many were bothered by the noise, the normal running and playing ... just not used to it anymore, it was now out of their comfort zone ......... they were not "child-haters". They had the right in their own 'residence' to their feelings just as any childless person does in his / her own home. I wish people could place themselves in one another's shoes for just a bit before assuming there's any 'hate' involved.

[pnwmom]

325. When I see people here comparing children to dogs, or calling them "hobbies,"

I would call that a form of hate. It's a form of bigotry like the others.

[polly7]

329. Children were compared to dogs here?

I must have missed that.

[DesertRat]

331. See post 43, for one example. n/t

[polly7]

340. Ok, so the poster who began the thread didn't compare children to dogs at all.

Thanks.

[Missy Vixen]

443. Oh, I see

You didn't like my terminology. Considering the fact we witness the fallout of parents who don't do their jobs daily, with NO recourse, "hobby" is mild.

I don't like reading the childfree being called names ("narcissistic, selfish&quot and the subtle implication that anyone who doesn't like screaming, out of control children must suffer from mental illness, either. It's just as much a "form of hate" as anything anyone who's not a parent has stated on this thread.

[pnwmom]

466. The OP first used the term "narcissistic" to characterize the children.

And I think her long vent, after being disturbed by some child on Christmas Day, was way over the top -- but that it could be understandable if she was feeling sad, as many adults do over the holidays. This is NOT a mental illness, subtle or otherwise.

I very rarely encounter the kind of children and parents that you and she describe. Maybe you both need to find some new friends.

[webDude]

317. Sounds like you need new friends, don't stand for that s#$t! It is NOT...

...your responsibility to take it.

[FedUpWithIt All]

326. If memory serves, this type of rant is not uncommon with you. Frankly, it's tired.

Go, live your life, avoid children. Can we all move on now?

[MissB]

328. With the move to the new DU, it's always helpful when posters remind us who they are.

The OP's rant doesn't even make sense.

[cherokeeprogressive]

332. Yeah, I'm afraid I'm going to have to unrec this.

I wasn't going to, since I'm worried about the ethics of unreccing someone who posted a good comment on a thread of mine in my time of worry, but what the heck...

As a father, I have to say that MY kid is Royalty, and deserves your genuflection whenever you're in her (someday to be his) presence.

[pnwmom]

334. I remember your posts well enough to know

that you are a very loving father, in addition to having a good sense of humor.

Good for you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

399. Not if you allow your kid to visit other homes and be destructive, create a ruckus, interrupt, and

do nothing about it. Then he's not royalty. Then he's just a pain in the ass according to everyone else at the gathering.

[Muskypundit]

335. My christmas consisted of a giant family gathering

Kids in one room, adults in the other. Two single women got really drunk and wouldn't shut the Fuck up. About ten kids didn't bother any of us a bit. Two drunk people wouldn't shut the Fuck up and let us watch the packers game. Myself and a few others went into the room with children to get peace. Make of that what you will.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

374. Well, the main problem was that mine was a grown-ups gathering...

I invited the mom with the little monster because she's alone and I was friendly with her for some time. Her husband left her for another woman, and she's been by herself with her child for about a year. I figured she could enjoy herself. Who knows? Maybemeet somebody? We invited a couple of other singles (men).

I thought she'd leave the kid home - OR - if she had to bring him, she'd pull him away and do time out with him if he began to behave badly. She brought him to our Christmas dinner and party, and she clearly had a blast, giggling whenever her monster did something that was unpleasant (and no, she wasn't drunk). She really, honestly thinks (like a few that responded to my post in a negative way) that other people have a responsibility to take care of her little monster for her, or that they somehow will automatically find his destructiveness and rudeness charming.

It's a great idea having a kids' room. We did that a lot when I was growing up. We'd have a big feast, family and friends One table would be in a different room and it was for the kids. The big table with the wine, etc. was for the adults. We kids had a BLAST! To be perfectly honest, we found the conversation of the adults (work, house repair, music adults liked, etc. etc.) BORING. None of us wanted to sit with the adults, but if one of us misbehaved, we'd be forced to sit at the adults' table. That was pure torture because we knew the rest of the kids would be enjoying themselves in the kids' room.

In this case, there was only 1 child, but he was like 20 kids lol Super ill behaved. The problem, though, was the MOM. She did NOTHING to stop her kid's misbehavior. NOTHING.

[DesertRat]

389. You thought a single mom would leave her child at home on CHRISTMAS?

Really?!!

[helderheid]

395. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ +10000

[Warren DeMontague]

473. Exactly. I've noticed that many people who don't have kids just don't fucking get it. At ALL.

I think it's got something to do with the goofy notion that somehow kids=pets, or maybe a piece of furniture. "what, can't you just leave that thing in the garage for a few hours, dahhh-ling? I mean, my oh so important adult emotional issues are much more important than your little 'monster', right?"

[FloridaJudy]

348. May I modestly suggest

That if you prefer your gatherings be child-free that you not hold them on Christmas day? For one thing, it's damned near impossible to find a sitter then, unless the parent is willing to shell out the equivalent of the GNP of a developing nation. One of the pair - if the parent is fortunate enough not to be divorced, widowed or single - is going to forced to stay home. Or else it's drag the little darlings with them or leave them home alone.

And, as any experienced nurse or teacher - let alone parent! - can tell you, even the most angelic of children is unlikely to be on his or her best behavior then. Chances are the youngsters are running on minimal sleep: they've stayed awake late listening for reindeer hoof-steps, and awakened before dawn. They've also stuffed themselves silly on weird food like candy canes and chocolate Santas, not to mention the green-bean casserole they had to finish before being allowed the candy canes, so they're likely to hurl all over someone's shoes. They've been as good as they possibly can for at least a week, in hopes that they'll get the must-have gift that's been heavily advertised. If they got it, then they'd much rather be home playing with it. If not, they'd rather be home either sulking or hiding their disappointment.

The result is something of a minor melt-down, in which they're likely to be either whiny and/or hyper. Most parents would much rather ride it out at home, where they can put the child down for a nap, or send him or her to the bedroom for a time out.

To their credit, not one child I have ever entertained has gotten drunk and taken a swing at my boss, or poured a pitcher of sangria over the head of a visiting professor. I cannot say the same of some adults.

So if you want a grown-ups only party, make it earlier in the week. Or do what a couple I know do, and hold a post-Christmas bash some evening and make clear it's just for adults.

I would never have taken my child to your house. I had too much respect for him to subject him to your disdain.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

371. No, actually, my next one will not include the monster's mom

That should make everyone else who was at the gathering (and who will be at it again next year) QUITE happy, as they complained to me about the little monster and his delighted (and rude as hell) mom.

I will continue to have parties when I desire. Rude people and their monstrous creations will not keep me from that.

[FloridaJudy]

501. Let's see if I can summarize here

You want your friends who have children to leave them at home, abandon any other family responsibilities they might have - such as entertaining elderly family members - and meet at your house on Christmas. Furthermore, they cannot even mention said children in your presence.

I don't expect you to adore my son, since it's already obvious whom you worship and expect to be the center of attention always. For your information, I almost always was complimented by other adults for his good manners.

I respectfully decline your invitation. I'd rather rub raw chili peppers on my paper cuts. I'll take the screaming brats over the arrogant and self-absorbed adults any day.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

503. I don't beg people to come to my house. I asked some people to a party. Those that came,

loved it, except for the attending brat and his permissive mother.

The brat was a topic of hushed conversation at my party.

[pnwmom]

351. Someday, when you are still childless and collecting your Social Security checks,

I hope you will recognize that the children you hated will be financially supporting you.

[onion belt]

432. ??? So basically just let kids become wild animals because one day I will need them for something.

(Reminds me of the parents who talk about their kids helping them in old age. Nice way of looking at human beings... )

[pnwmom]

453. No. You didn't read her whole post, because she also objects

to socializing kids in general -- letting them answer the phone in their own homes, talk to people who work in stores, listen to adults conversing . . .

[Dorian Gray]

359. Why?

Because we are moms. We love our kids. We want our children to be where we are. Sometimes they have bad days and are obnoxious. Sometimes other people (adults) are obnoxious and treat our kids with contempt.

We're all human. Some of us are assholes, sometimes.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

370. Why what? You missed the entire point, which is that unloading a BAD kid on others is intolerable

And you missed the posts from MOMS, who do not allow their kids to behave miserably with others, do not unload their kids on others to tolerate, and disagree with you. And if moms want to be assholes and shove the Frankenstein monster they created on others, mothers who posted on here agreeing with me will let them know that they need to curb their little monstrous creation and stop forcing it on others.

[Dorian Gray]

446. I don't like it when my daughter

annoys people. I try to teach her to be respectful of others. But she's a kid, and she has bad moments. 99% of the time I will remove her from said situation if that happens. But I'm human, and I fuck up sometimes. So does everyone here. And I'm sure that there are moments where someone out there will think my kid is an asshole. And I'm sure that I'll find other people to be assholes when they've had a bad day.

I think you are very unforgiving of potential circumstances that could lead to a child being in the middle of festivities on Christmas Day. I'm sure that child's mother could have done more. She's your friend, so you'd know better than any of us.

Luckily the little monsters that I surround myself with I love, temper tantrums and all. I don't know any child who is always a monster. They have their moments. A busy holiday with lots of people, lots of sugar and bad foods, and lots of over stimulation is probably such a time that a tantrum/bad behavior is going to happen.

In the end, it doesn't really matter, though. She's your friend, and if her kid's behavior is truly as bad as you think it is, then you have the choice to not include her in these events.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

447. True. Thanks. By the way, it wasn't just I that was upset. Others at the party came to me to

complain. The only one cool with the child's behavior was the child's mother.

[Jennicut]

372. I have two daughters that are 7 and 6. I teach them to be polite and try to have good behavior.

Unfortunately, not all kids can behave 24/7. They are kids, not adults, after all.
I love kids. I love talking to kids and I substitute teach. Yes, I really have to like kids to be a sub, which anyone will tell you will test one's patience like nothing else can.
But there are issues with parents not following certain rules set by their friends (no kids at adults only parties, how hard is that to follow?). Getting your kid to say please and thank you, not hard to do. Telling your kids not to act like idiots in a store, not hard to do either. Teaching them not to interrupt adult conversations is another thing that is easy to do.
However, totally keeping kids from not interacting with adults is not a good thing either. Where do they learn their behavior from? Us, of course. They need to model our behavior. My kids like to ask questions about what we are doing when I talk to my husband or parents or friends. They are curious about the world. Most have a thirst for knowledge and want to learn more new things everyday. That is why they are interested in you.

[Romulox]

378. As this thread demonstrates, children are most frequently ego extensions of their parents. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

392. I think very often they are. I do think some parents are overwhelmed by their own kids, and some

parents are under the impression that everyone should be tolerant of anything their kids wish to do, so they let their kids do anything they want, anywhere, to anyone.

[NinetySix]

379. Ding! Ding!

Ding Ding! Here comes the shit-mobile. I've never seen a fire truck that needed to be shaved. I would rather be burned to death than be saved by this hairy piece of shit.

Grade: F

[Enrique]

472. thanks, id never seen that site before

i have it bookmarked now.

[greiner3]

380. Or Republicans;

Oops, redundant.

[lumberjack_jeff]

382. "Yesterday I had to spend some time with one of these kids"

Jesus Christ, it was Christmas. Surely one day a year you can let them out of the cellar.

[Glassunion]

390. "Parents that insist on their kids performing for you"

Mom: "Little 4 year old Johnny is so amazing and smart for his age. You'll never believe what little Johnny can do! Let me go get him so he can show you."

Me: "Unless he can show me that he can cure cancer I could give a shit."

[HuckleB]

514. That's quite the pointless cliche, er urban myth.

Nice try on both sides of it.

[Glassunion]

555. Nah... A comedian I heard does a great bit on it.

[mrs_p]

397. Where in the hell

is the mother supposed to find a babysitter on Christmas?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

398. That wasn't the problem. The problem was that she watched her kid be a complete pest and did

absolutely nothing about it. Nothing.

[mrs_p]

405. Was there another room for the kid to play in?

I get your point, I really do... After 12 years of having no children, we finally had a little one. Brats definitely still get on my nerves, but there needs to be a realistic solution. Yeah, don't ever invite her again. But, if you enjoy HER company, you could accommodate her child with "quieter" activities on Christmas. An out of control child, an exhausted mom, sugar, no playmates, etc. sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Maybe a back room with toys, movies, or other kids. Having an adults only party on Christmas and inviting parents doesn't really mix.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

407. Sure, there was another room, but I didn't expect the child to be hidden in there.

I expected the mother to behave like a parent, and stop her child from bothering everyone, breaking things, etc. She did nothing. She wanted her child to be the center of attention and admired by everyone, and he was being admired by no one. Everyone saw him as a complete pest. She didn't get it. Her childrearing method of allowing her child to be a tyrant in all circumstances is going to get her nowhere fast. It already got her an uninvite next time I have people over.

[mrs_p]

412. Well, there is no changing people like that

Sounds like you have your solution.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

421. Thank you! I do have the solution, and this thread helped me arrive there. nt

[Juneboarder]

402. A response and reminder...

My response is that you must not have children; they are our future whether you like them or not.

A polite reminder that you too were once a child.

Have a great day

[treestar]

406. I like kids

But agree parents can be obnoxious when they insist their kid is a genius. A real prodigy's parents would not have to boast about it.

We wondered in our family if we thinks the kids are so adorable because they are ours, or are they objectively so? Do other people think they are as cute as we do? Blood is thicker than water.

I feel bad for kids whose parents insist they must be brilliant or super talented. That's got to cause some major insecurity over the years.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

408. I agree! It's unrealistic. I browsed through a book not long ago titled, I'm Not Your Friend; I'm

Your Parent. It discussed how nowadays some parents have ceased being parents.

[seabeyond]

409. i have real issues with parents saying, but i am his/her friend

i tell my kids, not your friend. i am your mama. why the hell would i want to be a friend when mama is so much more.

a friend allows and accepts, a mama makes clear boundaries.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

410. Good point. nt

[AverageJoe90]

439. You can be both, and do just fine.

Those parents who can, often have the closest relationship with their kids.

[polly7]

441. You are so right.

My Dad was my best friend, he was able to combine being both a father and friend with a line so slight I never realized just how good he was at it until he was gone. The best parents do both.

[seabeyond]

475. it is a different position. that is the point.

a well connected parent is going to be "friends" with child but it is really not a friend. it is a whole different category. a whole different place. i think the point of the post is clear. the meaning is clear.

i hung out with my mom more than any friend. i liked her more, enjoyed the time with her more, she was safest and one i could always trust to think of me first, the best for me. trust her always. still, i didnt categorize her as friend. but much more special, my mother.

[chrisa]

413. There is a point to this, though.

I can't stand when kids do some ridiculous, bratty things, and parents just stand there and either laugh or don't say anything. For example, a kid openly mouthing off to people, or throwing stuff at peoples' heads.

For example, running around hitting and kicking people while the parent just looks on laughing, like 'awww... That's so cute!'

[Sarah Ibarruri]

419. Exactly!

Case in point:

I remember some years ago a mother who was accustomed to letting her child do anything he wanted, was visiting another mother (whom I know) who also had a child. The child was being a bully, but his mother did nothing to stop his bullying behavior. Soon, her child was mistreating the child of the mother she was visiting, but the mother of the of the mistreating child did nothing to stop it. Seeing that the other mother was not stopping her son from bullying her daughter, the mom of the child being mistreated soon began saying things to the boy, like: "No, don't do that to her." The child looked up and continued.

Well, the girl was playing with a toy flute, and the boy shoved it down her throat. At that point both mothers stood up, alarmed. The mother of the girl pulled the flute out of her throat, the girl began to cry and point to her neck. Alarmed, she called 911. Meanwhile the mother of the boy started reassuring the mother of the injured girl, and saying, "I'm so SORRY! He didn't MEAN to, he didn't MEAN to!"

The ambulance arrived, checked out the girl and the medics advised the mom to take the little girl to the doctor immediately. She had some lacerations to her throat.

Why some parents don't stop their kids from engaging in unacceptable behavior, is beyond me.

Another case in point:

I attended a wedding in N. New York not long ago. One of the kids (a girl of 10 I'll call "J&quot was being a pest. First, at the reception J decided she didn't want to sit at the table where she and her family were seated. When told she couldn't move, J dragged her chair to another table where another little girl and her family was. J's parents did nothing.

There were some wedding souvenirs placed at each table setting for each person to take home, and she walked around taking the souvenirs off the tables where people had not yet sat, and stuffing them in her purse. The sister of the bride told her to put the souvenirs back, and she began to cry and throw a tantrum. Then she stormed out of the reception, banging the door. At that point, her parents walked out to her and tried to convince her to go back into the reception. They failed. She remained outside.

The groom then walked outside and tried to convince her to go back into the reception, and she yelled at him that nobody in the world liked her. (No wonder they didn't).

Finally, one of the female guests went outside to her and told her: (1) That she was upsetting her parents and that was wrong, (2) That no one admired her for her misbehavior, (3) That she would definitely be disliked if she didn't go back into the reception and, (4) That she (the guest) had no problem personally and bodily taking her back with her to her hotel and causing her to miss the meal and festivities, so she had a choice: go back in, or be pulled into a car and taken to a hotel where she would watch no TV, have no food, and merely wait for her parents to pick her up.

Needless to say, she quieted down and returned to the reception, dragged her chair back to where her parents was, and remained silent and upset the rest of the time.

Some parents do nothing to get bratty kids under control.

[badgerpup]

417. Damn...looks like you (OP) hit a nerve!

Just judging by the number of replies...

Gotta say I agree with you...but then maybe it doesn't count, since I don't have human offspring.
My 'kids', while furry and four-legged are just a tad 'spoiled'...but they're well-behaved for the most part (operative word being most).

[Sarah Ibarruri]

420. It definitely hit a nerve with those who 'saw' themselves in my description of the irresponsible

parent.

[seabeyond]

423. again. i dont agree. i tried to respond to your posts respectfully and with thought, though i

think your list is silly, in many places. still, i tried to disagree respectfully and maybe point out some issue that you are not aware of because you have never raised a child.

that is not hitting a nerve. nor is it indicating my children are brats and i allow them out of control, disrespectful behavior.

but, you continually saying, see.... means they have bratty kids. that could be the ONLY reason they are not agreeing and validating what i am saying, really... really.... is childish.

[helderheid]

430. ding! ding! ding!

I have 2 very well behaved kids, because I'm consistent with them. I tell them no when they need to be told no, and I follow through with appropriate consequences to their action, both positive and negative. The list in the OP is absurd, and the claim that anyone who disagrees with her rant must have bratty kids is equally absurd. No one here is advocating that it's okay for parents to allow kids to break other peoples' stuff or to talk back with disrespect or to allow out and out rude behavior, but for God's sake, we're not raising zombies. We're raising human beings. I delight when I see my 9 year old take her own money and choose to buy herself something from the store. Does it take a little longer for her to have to count out the money? Yes. Does she sometimes talk to the clerk while doing so? Yes. Does that mean you may have to wait in line an extra minute? It might.

[onion belt]

431. Maybe she's not talking about YOU!

And there are parents out there who allow their kids to run thru restaurants like wild animals. I have been there and had to go and deal these people to control their kids and it pissed me off. Even the damn waiter didn't do anything!

[seabeyond]

433. she was talking about the posters on this thread that disagree with her. you agreed with her.

so i ask, point out one post that indicates a parent allows their kid poor behavior, that validates what you both are agreeing to.

one post

[onion belt]

435. Well, I recall you writing the other day that you don't really care if your kid smokes weed

and alcohol is much worse, yada yada...If I were a parent, I would totally care! I don't think that getting high is a prerequisite for living thru adolescence! I wouldn't treat the kid like a criminal or a horrible person but it demonstrated a lax attitude to me.

[seabeyond]

467. your interpretation is a caracture of what i posted.

not to mention, dishonest.

two teens. there have been no issue with drinking, weed or drugs and 93.something honor roll.

"I wouldn't treat the kid like a criminal or a horrible person but it demonstrated a lax attitude to me." i would think this would be more the conclusion most people got from my post. but, that hardly fits your agenda.

[retread]

444. "really... really.... is childish" I wonder why she is so mad at the other children?

[onion belt]

425. LOL- I agree!

It's a bit off-putting when people try to argue that their child should be the center of attention 24/7. It shows they cannot treat their child in a detached way. It's spoiling on many levels and emmeshment. Not healthy for the child, either. Children need to know they don't get indulged every waking moment. This gives them a certain resourcefulness in entertaining themselves.

[seabeyond]

427. please point out one post that states children should be "the center of attention 24/7"

one post. just one to support your post.

[onion belt]

429. There's a person who seemed to take offense at the statement about including kids in adult

conversations. I see it all the time. When you have friendships and one person has kids, they should be aware enough to teach their kids how to amuse themselves while speaking to their adult friends. But some parents inject their precious angels into EVERTHING!

[seabeyond]

471. the point is, a couple people with no children, no experience with children, no parenting

experience and no education in raising children laughably throw out rules on how to raise children.

really, it is a joke to think that you actually know what you are talking about.

the two of you outraged at a child listening to adult conversation (as long as age appropriate and in a social situation i dont see any other) is ridiculous. and that is as a lifetime of being a child and allowed as were all other children, and having kids that are actively included in our "adult" conversations. further, we dare to encourage our children to participate. allowing them to gain social skills in a safe and nurturing environment, educating them, and raising well rounded young adults. open minded and flexible in thinking. always with the understanding that in any conversation one must do it with respect even in disagreement and an understanding that people are allowed different perspectives and that is ok and a good thing, too.

i have not seen one situation in a lifetime, where in social environment children were reject as the two of you suggest ought to be done.

as far as a hostess situation, i could never see myself having a single mom come over and not assume that child would not come. and then further expect the kid to isolate himself in aloneness at a time of celebration in a social environment. that seems the ultimate in rudeness and would never be done in my house.

when people step into my house, they are welcomed and made to feel welcome thru out.

i dont know the kid. could have been a brat. didnt get into that. but what the two of you are talking about is beyond a single situation.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

428. Exactly! It's definitely not healthy even for the child. They grow up not socializing properly

They also grow up expecting to be allowed to put themselves always first, and to be allowed to do anything to anyone. They have 0 self-control because parents thought it was somehow cute or funny to let them do anything they wanted to anyone, always.

[Warren DeMontague]

460. Oh, god, not the "my fur babies are just the same as your human ones!!!!" crap again

Speaking of things that are endlessly annoying.

[slackmaster]

442. I feel the same way about members of Congress, who are like our children

We give them money and keep re-electing them even when they misbehave.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

445. I agree. nt

[Broderick]

458. OUCH

Razor blades are a tough eat.

lol

[LanternWaste]

451. Kinda nutty that your annoyance is being called

Kinda nutty that your annoyance is being called everything from self-inflicted victimization to misanthropy... add to that the amount of eyeballs and responses, and I think we may have the First Official DU3 Olive Garden thread.


Rants are fun to read. The petulant responses that take the rants seriously even more so.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

477. Yup! Apparently irresponsible parents think it's cool to have their brats annoy adults and kids

However, heaven forbid anyone should complain! Oooh that's bad, evil, demonic! We must remain silent and endure in silence while the brats and their irresponsible parents carry on!

[HuckleB]

452. I agree with much of your post...

... but I don't think it's as widespread of an issue as you make it out to be.

Further, I'm not sure why it's wrong to have a kid listen to adult conversations, if he/she does so respectfully.

I've yet to see parents who stop a line at a supermarket just so their kids can talk to the employee. Sure, I've seen employees greet kids and give them a sticker, but I've also seen adults hold employees hostage while they tell their stories, no kids involved, and everyone else waits in line.

If a kid gets to the phone first, why is that a problem. The kid is a part of the family, and he/she needs to learn to take care of such things. If he/she "talks trash," that's another issue, but I've yet to experience that, and I know a lot of folks with kids.

As for kids interrupting adults, that's not always such an easy issue. You may not know how the situation was handled later, as most parents are not going to escalate the matter while they are talking with another adult.

In other words, sometimes context is important.

The bottom line for me remains: Kids can be annoying, but I know far more annoying adults, including those without kids. I'll take the "kids suck" crowd far more seriously, when I start to see more general posts about ugly adult behavior, which is far more prevalent.

Cheers!

[Warren DeMontague]

457. I notice that people without kids seem to think people with kids are endlessly preoccupied with them

instead of being preoccupied with the things that the people without kids think the people with kids should be preoccupied with, usually meaning the people without kids- and their myriad oh-so-important and sophisticated 'adult' interests.


The people WITH kids really don't have time for all this agitated hand-wringing and navel-gazing.

Here's the long and short of it: YOU are a grown up, and you can determine your own social interactions. If the kids chafe your shorts, hang out with different people. Or leave.

As for the supermarket, honestly, the worst offenders in the line aren't the kids or the parents, they're the old people haggling over the expired fucking coupon.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

480. Oh I do. That's why she won't be invited next year. Are you volunteering to invite her to your

home with her little brat?

[Warren DeMontague]

483. Oh heavens

I do hope you can get some therapy to help you recover from the deep emotional trauma you seem to have suffered.

[Broderick]

511. Chuckle

[Warren DeMontague]

463. Translation: MY FRIENDS WITH KIDS REFUSE TO CONFORM TO MY DEMANDS ABOUT THEIR LIVES

yet I'm too damn lazy to get different friends

[Sarah Ibarruri]

479. Me? I tried to do the woman a favor by inviting her. She apparently could care less about the rest

of us at the party. Don't worry about her. She'll be fine next Xmas. Maybe you can invite her for Xmas. How's that?

[Warren DeMontague]

482. You don't understand why a single mother couldn't "leave the kid at home"

which illustrates perfectly that you absolutely have no friggin clue.

[AngryAmish]

465. Thank god you were there to judge her!

Otherwise she would not have know how much of a better person you are than her.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

478. Me and the entire group of people at the party. Well, the good thing is now she'll

find a brat-friendly environment where brats are welcome. Maybe I should forward her some of the IDs in this thread that are so incensed. She might want to take her brat to visit them. lol

[FedUpWithIt All]

624. I'd welcome her. I do not require that my friends, or their children...

behave within a framework of my own design. I have friends with "badly behaved" children. I do not always like the way the children behave (especially since i AM a parent and must continue to enforce "good" behavior in my own children regardless of the example of the company) but i would NEVER abandon my friends, particularly in a time of great difficulty, over something so self centered. And i would certainly never "pass on" a friend to random strangers on a message board as if she were an old appliance that failed to serve you well. ****Maybe I should forward her some of the IDs in this thread that are so incensed. She might want to take her brat to visit them. lol *** Hardy har har. hysterical...

How incredibly generous and mature of you.

Perhaps your friend is simply an emotionally tired woman who clearly, considering the level of company she kept on CHRISTMAS, does not have much loving support in the form of friends, maybe even family, and as a result has developed a stronger dependance on her bond with her young child, WHO ALSO recently suffered a serious emotional trauma with the loss of his father. I would suggest that she will be much better off, once you remove yourself, and your self centered motives, from her life. She probably deserves much, much better.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

627. And yet you think only she counts, and not me. I did her a favor, but in return, she allowed her

kid to get away with bothering the guests, and breaking my things. Interesting. How come I have the feeling you would not allow that, and are merely letting out your current bad mood on this thread?

[Warren DeMontague]

481. Here's a perfect example of the mentality displayed in this OP:

Several years back, we moved into the place we're at now. We had (still have) some neighbors who we sort of knew from the old place. Minute we moved in, they glommed onto us, which was fine, they asked me for all sorts of 'favors' that involved me driving all over creation to pick up and help them move pieces of furniture, etc.... again, all fine. I'm a helpful and friendly guy.

So these guys are married, she's the 2nd wife, he's got teenagers from a prev. marriage that occasionally stay with them. But no kids for her, certainly no little ones. So she decided early on that my wife was her new best friend and (most importantly) emotional venting stack. Call up at odd hours, lets take a walk, I need to go off about job, husband, ohmygodnooneunderstandsme, yadda yadda.

Again, all fine. My wife is okay with being called upon to listen. And the exercise is good.

So about a year or so into this, our littlest one was maybe just turned two... and 2nd wife lady calls my wife and is like "I need to talk, let's take a walk". My wife, home alone with 2 year old, says "great, but I need to bring ******"

At which point, this "adult" throws a giant, whiny, entitled fucking temper tantrum: "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ALWAYS NEED TO HAVE THE KID AND I DONT WANT TO SIT AND FOCUS ON CHILDREN AND BABIES AND BLAH BLAH BLAH ME ME ME BLAH BLAH BLAH ME ME ME"

Uh, yeah. So my wife is supposed to do... what? Leave the 2 year old at home-- alone--- so this grousy, self-absorbed, 'childfree' so-called adult can have her full attention as she engages in another hour long piss-and-moan over 'oh, why is the universe not constructed to be more convenient to my endlessly sensitive IMPORTANT emotional needs'???????

It ended the friendship. After all the shit we'd done for them, apparently, my wife not being able to leave a 2 yr old in the house alone for an hour was just too, ah, "selfish"...

Some people with kids just don't fucking get it. So, fine, don't hang out with parents. Because we already have kids, we can't take care of you TOO.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

485. No, she didn't have to leave the child at home. But you're equating apples and oranges.

I invited this woman to MY HOME. She allowed her brat to destroy MY PROPERTY. She allowed her brat to bother MY GUESTS. My guests complained to me about her brat. And what was her reaction? Admiration for her little brat.

Different story.

And FYI, not all parents are the same, so why are you equating them too? Some parents are responsible. Some (like this woman I invited) are clearly not. I have no space in my life for irresponsible parents.

[seabeyond]

488. but then you went beyond just your situation to a list of rules for parents in parenting ALL

children.

none of us know this kid. but judging by your list of complaints, it is hard to believe that you have an objective view of what happened in your house.

then again, most parents are addressing your list.

[Warren DeMontague]

497. did you talk to her about it?

Because that probably would have been the thing to do, particularly once said "brat" started getting all bouncy in your little tale.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

498. Nope. I was pretty shocked that she was fine with it and smiling. On the other hand...

her house is a complete, broken-down pigsty, a testament to what she allows the child to do there. Doesn't surprise me that her husband took off with someone else.

[Warren DeMontague]

500. So, you chickened out.

If someone's kid is breaking MY shit, I'll talk to the parents AND the kid.

Seems pretty pointless to sit there and watch only to complain about it later.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

502. I didn't. I try to be polite, and didn't want to embarrass her in front of others

I'll simply not invite her again. I think I've mentioned that only about 500 times already.

[Warren DeMontague]

504. then take her aside

and say "look, you really need to keep Spaulding
(or whatever his name is) under control. He's interfering with the other guests' enjoyment"

It's really not that complex.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

506. LOL! Spaulding? More like Little Nosferatu. No, I expect parents to have respect for others

It's not my duty to 'train' this mother to raise her child to not be a monster to everyone around. Besides, I'm pretty sure she must get this from others already. Kids who are unpleasant are not liked by anyone. It's her problem is that's how she's raising her kid.

[Warren DeMontague]

509. Okay, well, you're saying that your stuff was destroyed & your party fucked up.

I mean, that's how I would have handled it. If your goal here isn't to deal with these situations in a more efficacious manner, but rather to hold your breath and turn blue until the world changes to suit your expectations, all I can say is good luck.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

510. FYI - in case you don't know - the party is over and the brat is out of my and my guests' lives. :)

Just saying, since you seem to think this was a party that lasted for days and continues still. The kid is (thankfully) gone.

[Warren DeMontague]

522. Every time I've had a party that's lasted for days, my place has been messed up

no 8 year olds needed.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

525. ROFL! Okay, but now you're talking about an entirely different sort of 'party'

The sort I'm not sure you'd care to describe. :-P

[FedUpWithIt All]

625. Wow.

What an appalling post.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

626. LOL! The ID you chose to use in DU pretty much says that about everything in life, doesn't it? nt

[FedUpWithIt All]

629. You can attempt to deflect with juvenile quips if you like. Your post stands as APPALLING.

Your friend, who recently lost her cheating husband, counts you as a friend and you think nothing of stating here that she lives in a pigsty and that you think her husband cheating on her and leaving is justified due to the role their child plays in their life?

Add to this that you think nothing of insulting this little boy, who recently endured the separation of his parents, after he watched his parent's marriage fall apart due to cheating, because you didn't get your way when you preferred that his mother didn't leave him to a sitter on Christmas?! The most appalling, you blame this young child for the failure of his parent's marriage. DISGUSTING.

It is not this kid, it was not that day, that party, that behavior. You rant against children on quite a regular basis. You dislike children. It is my sincere hope that your friends with children are clearly able to see you as you are, a child bigot, and learn to protect themselves, and their children from your vitriol.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

630. I'm dead serious. Anyone with an ID like yours is making a statement: that he's fed up with all,

with everything, with life. That his attitude is his ID. I'm not sure your ID reflects someone whose opinions I'd wish to value.

[FedUpWithIt All]

632. Really, very poorly constructed deflection.

First, i am a female. Second, my u/n for this POLITICAL MESSAGE BOARD reflects my views of the political atmosphere, as it was when i joined this board, while the nation was mired in the bush admin policies.

I have explained, my u/n. You have not explained your child bigotry and borderline tendencies in your friendships.

Worry not, i held no illusions that you would value my opinions. That would require a possible self evaluation and you strike me as one who prefers to blame others.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

633. I don't care if you're an alien from another planet. Your ID tells what you think and feel.

You chose it. I didn't. It tells about you. I made no presumptions before I read your concept of yourself via your ID. Your self-concept is not one that I would accept as being able to give me any advice on much.

[FedUpWithIt All]

634. Have a nice day Sarah. n/t

[Puglover]

590. No actually your post

is a perfect example of the fact that the point of the OP blow right over your head. But hey, it was nice and long.

[Whoa_Nelly]

484. This is most ugly post I have ever read on DU

I wish I could say I pity you your lack of humaness, humaneness and general all around ability to have compassion for a child, but I can't and I won't. Your post speaks volumes to who you are at the core of yourself, and you forget you were once a child.

My take on kids in any of the given situations you described, and regarding any of the children in your scenarios, or whatever the hell it was you were trying to represent in some pseudo-sophisticated manner...

I just bend the kids to my gentle will, bratty ones and wild childs alike.
I'm always happy to give some love to any child, and most often we end up being friends with respect for each other.
Even if the parents are present and doing any of those things of being "bad" parents as described in that beyond-the-darkside-of-feckery piece you wrote, kids are still kids: ignore the parents without them knowing it, and respect the kids for one moment...it leads to more moments of something that can make a difference.
It's all about recognizing the human and being one, too.

Yeah.
You fail as writer and a human.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

487. You are correct. This post brought out lots of irresponsible parents with brats

to attack my right to have a fun party in my home without the disruption of a brat who will not visit my home again.

[Shining Jack]

592. :facepalm:

[Warren DeMontague]

499. How, exactly, would you have preferred this kid to be "fascinating"?

Specifically. I'm curious.

Circus tricks? A detailed explanation of the narrative innovation contained in Citizen Kane? Perhaps you were disappointed that the "brat" didn't speak Portuguese?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

505. There was nothing appealing about 'the kid' to anyone in attendance. There was a lot repulsive,

however. Perhaps you get into that sort of thing?

[Warren DeMontague]

507. I'm wondering what your idea of a 'fascinating' kid at an adults party would be like

Seriously. How old is this bouncy child? What did you expect?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

508. I didn't expect him to be fascinating, but if he was going to demand the unpleasant attention of

everyone at the party, at least he should've been fascinating about it. Unfortunately, this kid (like all brats), was uninteresting and just a brat.

[Warren DeMontague]

512. So I ask again, how old was this kid?

It's relevant to the level of behavioral and social awareness you seem to have expected from him.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

515. About 7 or 8. Obnoxious ad nauseam. So now, Doctor Freud...

does the assessment meet with your approval?

Or are you still dissatisfied?

[Warren DeMontague]

520. a 7 or 8 year old probably isnt gonna know how to entertain adults

nor whether or not what he considers 'fascinating' is to them.

Look, parents should be aware of whether their kids are bugging people. No question. Most of us split the scene before it gets to that point. But you invited this lady, presumably knowing she has this 'brat'... since it's your party you have some responsibility to manage the situation IMHO.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

527. Yeah well... I ought to have said something at some point, such as...

"Your future convict is searching through the women's purses right now, so please stop him."

[Warren DeMontague]

529. That probably would have gone well.

I hope this lady was the only one there you had such abject disdain and loathing for.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

531. Only after she arrived with her brat and allowed him to run wild. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

538. I'm just really wondering how this all happened as a giant surprise to you.

Did you not know she had a kid? Did you not know she was coming with the kid? Did it occur to you to ask her to make other arrangements for the kid you (presumably) knew she had?

[seabeyond]

513. i am curious about the age. age matters. and not a mention. 5? 10? 16? lol. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

489. Good heavens, it's not an either-or thing here

I don't have kids, although I would have liked to, but in my now-long life, I've seen plenty of examples of both good and bad parenting.

During the time I was growing up, we spent a lot of time with our extended family (up to and including third cousins), and that included a lot of kids. Most of them were just fine. If Family A came over, no problem. If Family B came over, no problem.

However, if Family C came over, my brothers and I, who were kids ourselves would hide our favorite possessions so they'd be safe from the Little Weapons of Mass Destruction from Family C. Our dog was big and ornery enough to take care of himself, but we'd seen them pick up someone's cat by the tail and swing it around before the horrified owner intervened.

Mama C just sat and watched. Once she remarked, "I just want my children to have fun."

I have heard that remark from many bad parents over the years. Never from a good parent. They understand that their job is to enable their children's growth into being decent adults.

There are far more good parents than bad parents, and as for remarks about bratty children, well, if the shoe fits, wear it, and if not, the OP isn't talking about you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

490. Thank you. Doesn't it make you wonder why these certain parents are taking it so personally?

My guess is they've been there. They've had people approach them about their child's bad behavior and have become defensive, when in reality they should have assessed their child-rearing skills and brought up their child to behave better socially.

[Whoa_Nelly]

495. Yeah, you fail.

Last edited Tue Dec 27, 2011, 06:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Sarah Ibarruri, your responses in this thread comprise the most clueless epic fail on DU since 2001.

[yella_dawg]

521. Interesting.

You remember back as far as 2001, yet your profile indicates you've been here only since 2003. Your mental capacity is such that you are an authority on each and every post on this site back two years before you joined.


You take students??

[Whoa_Nelly]

534. I had a different name on DU back then, and dropped it and signed up on a new email/new name

[Sarah Ibarruri]

565. I noticed that too. nt

[distantearlywarning]

535. Well, at least she has good company.

53 other "clueless epic failures" recced her OP.

Defensive much?

[Shining Jack]

559. This thread have over 550 replies and 4170+ views.

That makes a lot of people who didn't rec this OP. Fail indeed.

[distantearlywarning]

569. Nope.

[distantearlywarning]

494. Exactly. n/t

[AngryAmish]

496. Let's look at the video from Christmas and see if the OP has a leg to stand on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7SxmWn9e4Co

[helderheid]

519. !!!!!!!!

[Broderick]

524. LMAO

[yella_dawg]

517. I've been thinking on this lately.

I've been thinking, and I am toying with the idea that adults have a society, kids have a society, and the two are diverging. A hundred years ago, most people were basically agrarian, and they kept their kids along most of the day, while working, interacting with the community, and so forth. Much of the day, parent and child were together and on a public stage. Tolerable behavior was taught to both child and young parents, by the entire community, and early on in life. Also, many, or most, children were raised by grandparents or extended family while the young parents worked.

Now, parents split at sunrise and the kids are warehoused in nightmare "schools". Come evening, everyone retreats into isolation where a hypnotic programming device anesthetizes the mind for more efficient indoctrination. If you think I exaggerate, read a little about how a television, the physical hardware device, causes measurable changes in brain function in viewers.

Three generations of Americans have been raised not by parents, but by a wholly unregulated programming device. Sadly, the programming device is often left running with no message, simply programming kids with random garbage.

When I compare how I was raised on a farm in the fifties with how the kid down the street is raised (by extremely conscientious parents) I wonder if civilization will survive.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

523. Excellent point for discussion! I wish you'd start a thread on this. However, beware.

Some parents might not be willing to discuss anything regarding the topic of kids. They're automatically on the defensive.

It's clear that there is less tolerable behavior nowadays, and you may be right that the fact that kids are exposed to so much violence nowadays may play into this, as well as the fact that there is simply no community per se any longer. There's also more permissiveness by certain parents.

There's no shortage of information out there on how troubled some kids and teens are. From the teens that beat up on the homeless, to those that shoot one another or themselves, or shoot their parents, join gangs, and grow up a mess. Teachers too, are suffering the effects of this, as so many kids behave in an unsocialized fashion.

[HuckleB]

528. Ah, the old "good old days" theory.

Sorry, but a true look at sociological studies of any era shows bad behavior by adults and kids for the whole of history.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

530. Such as? nt

[CreekDog]

540. If you had kids you would've given up pn this thread

A long time ago to get some sleep.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

564. If I were in Italy, I'd be sleeping. nt

[HuckleB]

551. Are you saying you don't know much about history?

Got it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

563. No, I'm saying prove your assertion. nt

[HuckleB]

661. Why?

Why can't I expect some basic intellectual honesty from those who supposedly want to discuss a topic?

[HuckleB]

548. In other words, you're choosing to ignore that sociology digs back into daily histories.

There is no evidence that supports your good old days theory.

[marlakay]

532. Wow did this bring out our opinions!!

Okay mine…I have two adult kids in early 30's who each have 2 kids. And I have a step daughter in mid 20's.

I was thinking this morning how I just had one of my best christmas times. Why? Because we stayed home for the most part only traveling on christmas day to have dinner & games with my cousin who is our age and single.

We had a quiet candlelight dinner and then played scrabble. Just went to visit her son & girlfriend for a short time in afternoon.

We had already agreed on no gifts so the whole night was about friendship, fellowship, food, wine and love.

I spent the last two christmas at my kids with noise, kids crying and running crazy, parents frazzled and tears and fights and kids opening presents without even noticing what was in them to get to the next one.

So while the author of this post hasn't had kids, I have and I understand what she means. My husband was like that with my step daughter, I used to think she was his mini-God. Sometimes I think divorced or insecure parents do that to make themselves feel better. Thank god as time has gone by and now she is done with the school and college to over inflate her achievements (I admit she is great but some parents want you to think they are GREAT) and now that she is working and we are two states away life is normal and relationship is finally normal.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

560. Thanks! You brought out a very interesting point, which is that

parents who give absolute leeway to kids could be doing it to make themselves feel better for something or another.

I love that: friendship, food, fellowship and fun.

[TZ]

533. So okay you claim

That all your critics are " parents of brats"? Well listen up. I'm childless by choice and I find your rant snobbish elitist trash and an embarrassment to other people like me.are there spoiled bratty children, yes, but your broad brush rant is incredibly offensive and I don't even like children in general! Good lord, I wouldn't want you within shouting distance of the kids I do know and like. By the way I missed where being around "bratty children" is some form of waterboarding! Oy!

[Broderick]

537. Par for the course

not the first rodeo I witnessed, errr trainwreck.

Disagree and you are stereotyped.

[Odin2005]

539. I'd say about half that list is perfectly innocuous behavior.

Maybe it's because I come from a slow-paced rural area where store workers chatting with kids and kids being in the town diner is considered normal part of community life.

And maybe I smell the stench of anti-kid bigotry.

[HuckleB]

553. +1

[Chemisse]

547. Clearly you just don't care for children.

These sound like regular kids doing what kids do, not 'brats'.

Let's face it; kids can get annoying, particularly if you have no emotional links to them. But the description of a typical child as "walking, talking obnoxia" (LOL!) could only come from someone who just doesn't like kids.

No biggie, but you might want to lighten up on the poor parents, who are only trying to do the best they can.

[HuckleB]

552. +1

[Sarah Ibarruri]

561. Oooh, if your kids are like those, I'm glad you're on the other side of a screen!!

And no, all kids are not the same, so please don't even try to equate them. Thanks.

[Chemisse]

618. My kids are grown now but they were pretty well behaved.

I did not let them terrorize the neighborhood or dominate adult conversations, and made sure they were held accountable for misdeeds.

I did let them answer the phone though, once they were old enough, and I did pause in conversations to respond to them if they needed something. Mothers are supposed to put their children's needs over their own social concerns. I also let my young pre-teens sit in on adult conversations, if appropriate, because I remember how much I loved being privy to such things as a young girl.

So no, not all kids are the same, but most of the things you are describing seem pretty normal to me. Some people just don't like having kids around. There's nothing wrong with that. Not all adults are the same!

On edit - You do make some valid points: parents should never let their kids 'run like animals through stores', and they should also try not to let their children annoy other adults via unwanted conversations, etc. Rules and structure are not just good for moderating children's behavior, knowing what they can and cannot do actually makes kids feel happier and more secure.

[KurtNYC]

567. I think what she describes in the OP is a mother who wants to be

her child's friend.

The mother is not even asking for better behavior so they aren't going to get it.

[lost-in-nj]

556. Bitterman ..... party of one your tables ready

Bitterman party of one....

I wish we had a like option on some replies.... ... like Face book....


and I wish the unrec was still available.......

le sigh


lost

[Pryderi]

572. My dad says that he's never seen a happy, spoiled kid. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

573. He's right. The behavior of spoiled kids is abnormal behavior. nt

[NRaleighLiberal]

576. I know adults that exhibit pretty much every one of those examples. Many were

highly paid colleagues in the corporate world. Some are neighbors.

And I've experience children who exhibit some or many of them as well.

I love my two girls - who are now 26 and 30. We raised them well, it seems....they are adults who did not when young and do not now exhibit many of those examples.

[Liquorice]

577. I really don't feel the aggravation that you do over these things that

are not that big of a deal. I don't have kids, but I like kids and I know that parents have a really tough job. Moms love their kids and want other people to recognize how cute/smart, etc., their children are too. There's nothing wrong with that, and I can understand it. I even like it when people tell me my dog is smart and pretty. You also have to remember that those kids are innocent and your bad feelings toward them seems over the top and unwarranted.

Sometimes people use displacement to place their unconscious issues onto others in order to avoid dealing with their true problems. I see this post as a good example of displacement. JMHO

[lonestarnot]

578. Then you will like this story.

My kid and I went to eat at one of our favorite joints, and the place was pretty empty but for a few tables, one with three adults and a little girl in a frilly little dress with bows in her hair who decided to take up a scream that was ear curdling because she wasn't getting her way about something. It was clear that none of the three at the table were going to shut that shit up, so I yelled SHUT UP with a look that must have shown the kid she was on my last nerve and she shut the fuck up and not another peep. Some lady behind us made some comment and my kid said, "that worked," and continued eating.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

580. ROFLMAO! I love that. There should be more people like you around. nt

[lonestarnot]

623. :)

[melissaf]

581. Here's something that a fellow parent I know says whenever bitter adults

start ranting about kids in their presence:

Someone in your past put up with *you* when you were a small child. That someone may not have had children, but he or she put up with you because that person was the adult.

Yes, bad behavior in children is annoying. Yes, often it's the parents' fault (in fact, it's usually the parents more than the kids that should get the blame for children not knowing how to behave themselves). And no, I'm not telling you how to live your life. I lived most of my life as a childless adult, and I don't fault anyone for choosing not to have kids. It's definitely not for everyone. However, since I had my son, I feel like I understand more about kids and I grew up a lot, so I don't have quite the knee-jerk annoyance to the presence of kids anymore.

Rants like this just strike me as motivated by the author's desire never to have their day sullied by seeing a child. That, to me, is pretty immature. That may not be your point, but if it is, then I recommend you lock yourself up in your child-free dwelling and never come out. That's the only way your sensibilities won't be tarnished by the presence of children.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

583. You missed one tiny point. Bad behavior in kids is the PARENTS' responsibility

Not mine. Not other people's. Not a roomful of restaurant patrons. Not a party of guests.

[Dorian Gray]

586. I think most people understand that point

and it's been said, re-said, and said a million times in this thread.

Some parents are negligent and their kids are jerks.

What can we do about it, though? Complain. Leave. Stop inviting those people over if you don't like them. They're all viable options for you.

I've told kids to knock it off (kids who aren't mine) in certain situations. As a stranger, it's awkward, but it's sometimes warranted. I won't deny that. But, there is a huge difference between that and calling children monsters. And some of the behavior you complain about is not particular complaint worthy. And sometimes kids are around. If you don't want to change your behavior for them, then I guess the onus is on you to either avoid them as much as possible, or just continue to be yourself, tell the stories you want to tell, and let the parents remove the kids from your space if they don't like it.

Obviously you're not going to invite this particular friend to your home again with her child. That's a good solution for you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

588. Yes

And my response to you was because you said this:

-----------------
Here's something that a fellow parent I know says whenever bitter adults start ranting about kids in their presence:

Someone in your past put up with *you* when you were a small child. That someone may not have had children, but he or she put up with you because that person was the adult.
-----------------

That's all.

[Dorian Gray]

589. That post wasn't mine

I was responding solely to the commentary in your last post... your response to the prior post was made to someone else.

[CreekDog]

595. You should listen and learn from whomever wrote that statement

it's good.

humanity is made up of people, almost half of whom are children right now.

[JDPriestly]

582. As a mom, my motto is, if your mom isn't on your side, nobody else will be.

When my children were small, most of my friends either had children about the ages of my own or really loved kids.

I have always appreciated children. I think you are missing out on something important if you find children annoying.

[melissaf]

593. Actually,

I think everyone need not find children enchanting. As a formerly childless adult, I support the right to find kids annoying if one chooses and to live life not feeling as though they're "missing out." The problem I see comes when adults decide they never want to see a child in their midst, hear a child raise their voice, witness a child running or singing or doing things that kids do when they're just being kids and not really disturbing anything. (Case in point: going to dinner at a restaurant at 5:00 and being annoyed that there are kids around. I've heard some foodies complain about this, but if you're going to take a kid to a restaurant, 5:00 is when the kid will be best behaved. If the kid isn't behaving in the restaurant, then say something. Otherwise, tough it out or come back at 6:30 when the rest of the world eats.)

Not all running/jumping/yelling/existing is disturbing. If you can't be anywhere where a kid is present, then expect to be annoyed--and not have parents sympathize with you--several times a day.

[Burma Jones]

604. The 5:00 restaurant rule is the key to happiness in the suburbs..........

[Snake Alchemist]

599. Are there no prisons? And the union workhouses, are they still in operation? nt

[Snake Alchemist]

600. Seems like this is lacking many details.

First, how old are you?

Second, what did this child break?

[blueamy66]

601. I don't have kids.....have a stepson....

I have a truckload of nieces/nephews/greats, etc.

I love them to death! They are spoiled rotten. But I get to leave them with their parents.

I can see both sides of this argument. There has to be a happy medium.

Sometimes I am shocked at their behavior in restaurants and will take them outside. But most of the time I just freaking ENJOY them.

Didn't enjoy the kid in the store the other day that was rolling around on the floor in front of my cart.

Kids are awesome! Just never wanted any of my own.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

611. I love my nieces and nephews. Love taking them to the movies and

out to eat. At the end, I love returning them to their mom and say a small prayer of thanks that I can do that. lol She is quite grateful to be away from them, even if only for a few hours.

[blueamy66]

617. I can relate!!!

I love driving home to my peace and quiet!!!!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

619. God, me TOO!!! Isn't it bliss? I almost feel guilty about it. nt

[blueamy66]

622. Yeah....it's fun to spoil them and then go home and put on my jammies

and sack out in front of the tv with a beer

My fiance just found out that his niece is expecting! We are over the moon! Another great niece/nephew! Cannot wait!!!! Good excuse to go to Chicago and visit!

[Burma Jones]

603. Well, you'd get along pretty well with my wife and our three kids

We use a lot of Sitter Time and they are keenly aware of the difference between kids and adults.........

My two older kids (14 and 11) do perform for adults, but the adults have (at times) paid for their seats.

A story though.....

My youngest (then barely three, now five) was pitching a fit in the cart (not running around) at a grocery store as we were checking out. A woman yelled at me to shut her up, to which I shrugged and pointed to the cashier as she was doing her job and getting us the hell out of there. When that wasn't enough, she came over to us and grabbed my 3 year old daughter by the shoulder and screamed at her to shut up. Before I had a chance to correct this woman's behavior with extreme prejudice, the woman behind me in line grabbed the woman and threw her to the floor and started screaming at her to never touch another person's kid again. The woman then got up off the floor and walked back to her line. I thanked the woman who had interceded, paid for my order and walked out. As I got to the door, the Store Manager apologized to me and gave my kid a balloon. It quieted my daughter down though and I think she's been a little apprehensive around strangers ever since - probably for th egood.

I understand the frustration and can only add that the sort of parents and children you're ranting about are also very very harmful to parents trying to raise their children with a sense of respect and responsibility.

Oh, and my kids are maybe God's gift to their Mother and me (although, raising kids to be compassionate, kind and responsible is our gift to Progressives of the future) and whether you acknowledge that or not is your own business.

And if you want, I have pictures.....and they are adorable.......

[Sarah Ibarruri]

606. Wow, that woman was a total nutjob. What's more, unsolicited touching is battery.

And it's illegal. She could've been arrested.

I agree that the child I referred to in my OP is quite different from most. Certainly day from night from the kids my sister has! On the other hand, when my sister's kids are not behaving properly, she certainly makes it known to them in one way or another. She doesn't stand adoringly by and watch them be destructive or a pest to others. Doing nothing while they engage in destructive, rude behavior, is a statement to the child that what they're doing is fine, good, okay.

I don't doubt most parents love their children. However, that's not the same thing as saying that all parents are suitable to be parents, although I'm sure all parents think themselves most excellent and would take issue with anyone who said otherwise. The mom who brought her child to my party and then allowed him to run wild and do anything, is definitely not much of a parent at all.

I agree with you that children who are raised in households where there's no order, schedule, control, rules or anything, are also bad for the rest of families. They're bad everywhere. Other kids know them as bullies.

I do think there's a big disconnect between reality and whatever is in the mind of a parent who stands adoringly by while their child is destructive, bothering others, or behaves like the tyrant of the household.

[Major Hogwash]

607. I don't have much to add to what has already been said.

But, I don't want to be left out of this thread.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

610. LOL! Everywhere you go, people run away. nt

[Major Hogwash]

628. That's how it was when I was a little kid, too.

See, I was that "little monster" that you have been complaining about for the last 3 days.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

631. And according to your chosen ID, you're full of hogwash. Interesting! nt

[begin_within]

613. These parents see their kids merely as extensions of themselves,

and not as separate, independent organisms. All the ogling and admiring they want you to do over their kids is really for them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

615. If that's true, then it's like having a boil on one's neck and showing it off

expecting compliments! Sheesh.

[begin_within]

621. They don't see the kid the same way we see them.

What we see as faults they see as charming character traits. They aren't capable of seeing anything wrong with the kid because the kid is a reflection and extension of themselves. There couldn't possibly be anything wrong or objectionable about their behavior.

[SomethingFishy]

614. I think I can help you...

-Parents that include their kids in everything, adult conversations, bring kids to your dinner that you’ve made very clear is a grown ups dinner, etc.

Don't invite parents who can't understand "no kids" or don't invite them. Easily solved.


-Parents that allow their kids to interrupt conversations between them and another adult

It's human nature to want attention. A child has yet to develop enough to understand that they are not going to get all the attention all the time. Unless you have by some odd miracle discovered a way to make a child go against their nature then just stay away from kids when you want to talk.

-Parents that allow the kids to run and answer the phone every time and waste your time talking trash, when the reason you called is to talk to the adult, not entertain the kid

Well, don't make fucking phone calls then. Or act like an adult and tell the kid you are in a hurry and need to talk to their parent. Just because you have nothing to do but yack on the fucking phone does not mean parents have time to talk to you. We are busy.

-Parents that stop a whole huge line at the supermarket or anywhere at all because they want their child to talk to the employee taking orders or checking out

I have never once seen this. Never. Shit it must happen to you all the time for you to be so upset about it.

-Parents that bring kids to your house and let them make a frikkin’ mess everywhere and touch every single thing, even BREAK your things.

You let kids break shit in your house? So you would be one of those parents?

We could list all the rest as "you don't like kids". I get it...

Well avoid them. And their parents. You know the solutions to your issues are quite simple, even a child could solve them without resorting to instigating a flame war on the internet.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

616. The flame war wasn't begun by me. I explained something factual

I did not lie.

I did not embellish.

However, some began a flame war because they saw themselves in my description. Are you one of those who saw himself/herself in my description?

[taterguy]

636. Who composed the OP?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

637. Oh, so I'm supposed to be a fucking psychic and determine who might be an asshole responding to

my post? Very amusing. Bye.

[Snake Alchemist]

638. I'm still waiting for an answer to these two questions.

How old are you?

What did the child break?

[taterguy]

640. People have strong opinions about child-rearing

You really don't have to be a psychic to know that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

641. And because people might have strong opinions I have to stfu about something

that happened to me? That will never happen.

[FedUpWithIt All]

643. I would wager some here have stong opinions about adults who get their panties in a twist

every time they are in the near vicinity of an under 18. Interestingly, those people do not feel the need to begin a thread about this subject every few months. They seem to realize that would be pure vanity.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

644. And who starts threads like this every few months? And furthermore

if it's only "every few months" that someone starts a thread about irresponsible parents that don't teach their kids anything, and don't stop them from being pests to others, that's too darn infrequently.

[Nikia]

639. As the host, you have a responsibility of putting your guests at ease

In this case, that might have involved finding the child something to do like watching a movie if you did not want him around the adults at all or he started to become annoying. If he was really causing a problem, you should have tactfully said something to the mother and/or child. You could have attempted to steer her conversation away from talking about her child. Maybe she was shy and did not know what else to talk about with people who she did not know well.
Yes, it would have been great if the mother would have the sense to bring things with them so her son would have something to do at what must have seemed boring to him. She should have done something if he was annoying other guests and especially if he was making a mess or breaking things.
When you are the host though, you do have a responsibility for all your guests. You could have had guests that got really drunk and caused problems. You could have guests that get into a fight, whether they were drunk or not. If that happens, you have to handle it.
If you are uncomfortable with confrontation, maybe your boyfriend or other close friends could have helped you out.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

642. I'm no nanny. I don't recall offering to play babysitter that evening.

If a mother gets invited into a home, she has the responsibility of making her child behave. I don't know why you're unloading that on others.

[Nikia]

645. You shouldn't play the victim here, it was your party

An adult guest could have gotten disruptive. A guest could have gotten sick. If you are a host and see a problem emerging, you deal with it. It doesn't matter if it should be someone else's responsibility.
I don't unload the responsibility of my child onto others, but if there are guests at my house causing or having problems I deal with it regardless of their age. I've dealt with worse things than an annoying child and sometimes anticipating problems or dealing with them before they become big is a good idea even if it initially causes an inconvience.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

646. I can kick an adult guest out of my house in a jiffy or call the police on them

Now sit back down and stop whining. Nobody invited you to my get-together.

[polically incorrect]

649. totally agree with op.

Gotta agree with original poster. I am dating this woman who has a teenager that she invites into every conversation, argument, and hell the girl won't even sleep in her own bed she has to be stuck up her mom posterior so bad. I mean, really. I do not see this relationship going much longer if we can't have any alone time. I am soooooo sick of this.
As far as being a brat rather than co-dependent goes - if she doesn't get what she wants or she doesn't like what you think... wow.... talk about a temper tantrum.....

[Sarah Ibarruri]

650. Take it from me, a woman, get rid of this woman. Parents that insist on shoving the kids up

other people's noses, and don't allow for any space, and even worse, allow the kid to dominate the adult environment, REFUSE to change. You can see that easily, by browsing through some of the responses in this thread. Find yourself a woman with more common sense.

[valerief]

651. Gee whiz, you're the popular kid, Sarah!

This issue has more heat than an anti-gun or anti-pit bull post!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

652. Oh yeah. I had no idea every parent of a brat would come out to attack my post

But I'll know next time.

[valerief]

653. If they spent that much energy disciplining their brats, the kids wouldn't be brats!

Cuz it's never the kids' fault. It's always the parents' fault. They don't want you pointing out their Mini Me's tantrum is unacceptable.

BTW, I think you might have started the new Thread That Never Ends. Ha!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

659. Oh ABSOLUTELY! Their little Timmy is NEVER a monster! Of course he isn't LOL!

He's just "a child" and everyone who doesn't fall madly in love with her monster, is an evil adult, or hates children, or is envious of not having some creature like their Timmy, or just doesn't "understand" children. LOL

Yeah, it looks like the thread was moribund for a while, but every once in a while someone drops by to agree, or one of the irresponsible parents jumps back in to disagree again. lol