White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism

[Zenlitened]

Last edited Tue Jul 14, 2015, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

(Note: The author of the article excerpted below originated the term "white frailty."* She is white, as am I.

What prompted me to post this? The inevitable -- and exasperating -- defensive reaction from some replies to KamaAina's OP on Serena Williams and white tears,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6969528

Also: The title of the article says "racism." I'd argue it might be better to say "race," period. Because way too many of us just can't handle it AT ALL when the topic comes up. It's ridiculous.)

White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism

APRIL 9, 2015 BY DR. ROBIN DIANGELO

...Our socialization renders us racially illiterate. When you add a lack of humility to that illiteracy (because we don’t know what we don’t know), you get the break-down we so often see when trying to engage white people in meaningful conversations about race...

...Most whites have a very limited understanding of racism because we have not been trained to think in complex ways about it and because it benefits white dominance not to do so. Yet, we have no compunction about debating the knowledge of people who have thought complexly about race. Whites generally feel free to dismiss these informed perspectives rather than have the humility to acknowledge that they are unfamiliar, reflect on them further, or seek more information...

...The antidote to white fragility is on-going and life-long, and includes sustained engagement, humility, and education.

I say give it a try. Costs us nothing, really. And it's actually pretty painless, only stings for a little while.

Link:
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism-twlm/

*Edit: I don't know why I typed "frailty" there, meant "fragility" as Dr. Diangelo said. Sorry.

[Prism]

1. Respect is a two way street, however

"White tears" is meant to be a hostile, derogatory bit of racial invective. It's meant to be mocking, and it's meant to elicit a response.

When that response materializes, feigned surprise is pointless. More pointless is the inevitable, "Well! Now we can see who is racist!"

It's intended as a bit of bait. It's meant to get people riled up.

When you start on that foot, productive discussion becomes less likely.

That article is an excellent example. It's a genuinely good article detailing the astronomical amount of shit Serena Williams and other successful PoCs have to deal with when they excel in historically white enclaves.

The title unfortunately distracts from it - unnecessarily.

I don't believe in the "punching up" frame of hypocrisy ("you can't abuse me, but I can abuse you" that unfortunately colors so much of tumblrish discourse these days).

If you're throwing punches at people you want to persuade, to listen to you, and to ultimately adopt your viewpoint, you're less likely to succeed.

We can't act superior or surprised when we aim to offend someone and then they act offended. That's adolescent at best. People could at least own when they're being childish and bratty.

[cwydro]

10. ...

[madfloridian]

11. Well said.

[840high]

16. Thank you.

[flamingdem]

27. Well put

[Journeyman]

29. Well said. Doubtful if those who need to will actually hear your words . . .

[femmedem]

30. When I--a white woman--was running for City Council, I said the words "white privilege" in a debate

and the audience gasped. Whatever I had been about to say became less important than reacting to the gasp "Did you all just gasp?" I said. "Is there something controversial about the words white privilege? Is there anyone in this room who doesn't believe that it's real? Security guards never follow me around a store, even though the only kleptomaniacs I've known have been white. When I get pulled over for a speeding ticket, I feel annoyed, not scared. If there's anyone here who doubts the existence of white privilege, then we have two separate communities in our city, and one half needs to do more listening to the other."

I know I still need to keep listening to, and building deeper friendships with, rather than friendly acquaintances with, PoC. And if I feel a bit defensive about something, that's a clue that I need to listen more carefully.

[romanic]

38. White silence then?

[Prism]

76. This isn't really about privilege though

And it's a shame it's being conflated with privilege.

It's about whether or not someone can use a racially inflammatory term to needle people and be bulletproof to criticism.

The short and common sense answer is no. Everyone must own their words and take responsibility for them, no matter who they are.

[yuiyoshida]

169. I can not discuss it with my

White friends in chat. Too many of them refused to listen, and unfriended me, called me a Racist..(I am Asian in case no one noticed) and told me that I need to "shut the fuck up". I refuse to discuss politics any longer with my friends.. one person even told me , "Look, you are Asian, you got it good here (in America) You just need to shut the fuck up."

[malaise]

40. I don't see it that way at all

Live mocking with two words versus real mocking ever hour of the day.
It's about time the super sensitive defer to those who have been the real victims here.
After over 400 years of racism and after studying the way the Williams sisters and their father have been treated for nearly two decades, it seems perfectly rational for an African American web site to respond a la Rude Pundit.

If nine white people had been slaughtered in a church, not one person would be delighted with a response of 'grace' and 'forgiveness'.

The only way overt racism (institutional and otherwise) will end is when harsh truths are faced. It is only very recently that the Williams family have received apologies from more than a few establishment media hacks.

Ask the Williams sisters about line calls back in the day and then go figure why the tennis world was forced to introduce instant replay reviews.

Only those who assume privilege would demand that those who are victims be nice to them about it.

re

[Prism]

73. Let's examine another equivalent

Let's use an example from my own community (LGBT) of a phrase directed at heterosexuals that will generally start a fight.

"Breeders"

Yes, I hear it all the time. Yes, sometimes the context and use of the term can have hilarious results. Yes, it's a word that reflects a bit of hostility and aggression born out of people who are tired of being oppressed.

It's also going to start a fight. I know this. If I use it in a mixed audience with a lot of heterosexuals, I can expect blowback. As an informed, empathetic adult with life experience in discussing LGBT issues, I can accurately gauge what my use of that word will result in.

So I don't use it when I'm trying to make a statement I want people to listen to and take seriously. This should be common sense 101.

What I wouldn't do is, after using the word and receiving the entirely predictable blowback, immediately cite the entire history of oppression of my people and stand on that bloody pillar explaining why I can be juvenile as I want to be, and no one has any right to say boo to me. That would be childish and more than a touch obnoxious. That's bringing a rocket launcher to a nerf fight. My brothers and sisters didn't fight, march, and die simply so I could be an untouchable brat on the internet.

That said, I'll admit to some slight hypocrisy here. That picture of Serena with the trophy and that caption made me laugh. It's hilarious. Offensive, but hilarious. It's fine to be offensive. I think more people should be offensive. It makes for great comedy sometimes.

I just don't get why people are so miffed that an offensive comment offends people. Like I said, it's fine. Just own it, though.

[phylny]

173. Say the word "breeders," say "white tears," and I'll turn, walk away,

and won't listen to what you have to say. It's insulting.

[yurbud]

177. insulting maybe, but most of the time those making the insult have no power to oppress

white breeders.

So it's a very mild offense.

[CANDO]

196. But its not about the power to oppress...

Its about starting a shit storm and then getting to call others racists because they aren't down with the childish, amateur insults hurled from a self appointed perch of moral perfectness.

[Throd]

205. When you break it down like that, the whole exercise seems kinda cheap and chickenshit.

[YoungDemCA]

74. Well said, malaise.

[CharlotteVale]

83. This is exactly how I see it.

[Zenlitened]

115. Excellent point re Rude Pundit. I'd add Jon Stewart, John Oliver, etc

These white men are celebrated for the way their humor punches us right in the gut -- and instantly engages our brains.

We love the way they expose raw truths, no mincing of words, short and sweet and right to the startling point.

Chris Rock does that, too, and Dave Chapelle. Though sometimes I notice we white people in the room aren't laughing quite as hard when it's these black men shining the light on ourselves. Gives us a little too much to ponder all at once, maybe?

And really, the Rude Pundit is nowhere near being in the league of these pros at the top if their game. Yet we still give him all the leeway in the world to say outrageous things, lob incendiary words all over the court.

Maybe the Very Smart Brothas deserve a little room to play the same power-serve game too?

I think so.

[malaise]

153. Rudie doesn't mind offending people to make his point

and I love him for it

[Number23]

168. Great posts from you and malaise and great effort on your part.

We love the way they expose raw truths, no mincing of words, short and sweet and right to the startling point.

Chris Rock does that, too, and Dave Chapelle. Though sometimes I notice we white people in the room aren't laughing quite as hard when it's these black men shining the light on ourselves. Gives us a little too much to ponder all at once, maybe?

That is an amazing point. And I think what you're seeing is what people of color think in private out in the open. Which is one of the reasons most poc just leave our thoughts within ourselves. I don't care how "down" alot of white people think they are with black people, there is a lot of stuff we just don't share with non-blacks. It's obvious that piece was not written for non-white audiences.

Also take a look at how the poc and clued in white folks are viewing that piece versus non-poc and others. The difference is stark.

Maybe the Very Smart Brothas deserve a little room to play the same power-serve game too?

I think so.

I think so too. And it would be nice to see black folks given half the leeway that white folks are just once.

[Zenlitened]

176. Thank you, it's kind of you to share that affirmation.

People sometimes overlook the "lite" in Zenlitened!

I don't claim to have any grand sort of enlightenment that's not available to anyone else.

But wow, it blows my mind how hard some people work to never learn a thing outside their own little bubble.

I mean, it's unreal: "I've never heard the phrase 'white tears,' I'm completely unaware of what Serena Williams has faced, I have not a single insight into the experience of being black in America... so lemme tell ya what my opinion is..."

Ferfucksake, no. Don't tell me, I don't want to hear it. Less talking more listening, less telling more asking!

Is that so hard, folks?

[Quayblue]

121. +1

[HFRN]

66. to paraprase what you said, using a corporate chiche

'when you point a finger, you have 4 pointing back at you'

tired cliche, but still true

[ChazII]

68. Wise words, Prism and

I want to say thank you.

[Zenlitened]

103. Ideally, yes, respect would be a two-way street...

...but only if this ideal state means power is truly balanced.

Right now, it's not -- the assymetry is too stark. So I don't see the term "white tears" as hostile or attacking somehow.

I hear it as an expression of pain, perhaps. Certainly a response to hostility, not an instigation.

Maybe one small part of a rational decision by a community of people self-empowering to define and discuss their experience of the world on their own terms.

I'm okay with that. It doesn't get me riled up, doesn't make feel offended or defensive.

It gets my attention, gets me listening. Doing a little reflection and exploration.

Seems like pretty good communication to me.

[Prism]

143. Maturity is truly balanced

And therein lay the problem.

I find this idea of power imbalance and punching up actually a bit patronizing to oppressed classes. What we're really saying in so many words is, "We hold you to a lower standard than we hold ourselves." We expect those of us in a privileged class to behave a certain way, but those in unprivileged classes can do whatever, and we will apologize for it on their behalf.

This is weird to me. It feels privileged in and of itself that we would so exert our social expectations in such a discriminatory fashion.

Again, I'll return to the "breeder" strain of remarks from our community. It's hostile, it emanates from pain - but I don't find it particularly empowering. It isn't meant to foster understanding. It isn't intended to bridge divides. It certainly isn't used as an expression that encourages listening to follow. It's divisive invective. Funny, sometimes. Satisfying, definitely. It's a release of anger, frustration, and hurt.

But is it productive? Not in the slightest. Is it offensive? Highly. I wouldn't defend its use to a heterosexual audience. I wouldn't tell them, "Well, suck it up, hahaha!" That's how adolescents behave, not grown adults who are earnestly trying to change culture.

I'm not particularly riled up by the term itself. I don't feel it applies to me (the more ass Serena kicks while doing her thing, the happier I am for her). But, I cannot imagine immediately opening with a racial pejorative is getting anyone to listen and reflect. Anymore so than opening with "breeders" to a hetero audience really made them explore their inner homophobia.

Just look at what has happened in this instance. There's a really good article, but rather than discuss it, we're having this conversation instead. Because of how the article was presented. Is this productive? Is a 300+ thread slapfight about the term really getting us all to discuss how we may move America forward racially? Not really.

If I have a problem with the phrase "white tears", it's that it's mistargeted. Racist tears? Sure. Hater's tears? Absolutely. White? If people think the only racial class of people who hate African Americans are white, they need to get out more. I guarantee caucasians aren't the only ones who have thrown shade Serena's way.

[MellowDem]

160. Yes yes and yes....

You've said it all beautifully.

The title of that article is cathartic for its intended audience. I don't think there is anything wrong with that necessarily, it's healthy to have catharsis. Just don't expect it to promote discussion, much less persuade people, as effectively.

Quite a bit of the titles on DU invecting against conservatives are cathartic.

I think actual persuasion and discussion is much harder and less immediately satisfying than preaching to the choir, but when you live in a world surrounded by those preaching against you, I understand the need for some release.

[Prism]

165. You are exactly right

And catharsis is totally fine! But it was brought to a mixed audience, the trolled were, well, trolled, and then insulted for exhibiting the reaction that was fished for. When called out, suddenly everyone went deep social philosopher about it instead of admitting, "Yeah, not great, but whatever. It's funny."

I think it's the dishonesty that's grating. The pretense that there's something more there than there is.

[Spatened]

180. Bull manure...

[randys1]

110. I have only read what is excerpted, clearly nothing there is remotely hostile, so I assume the

hostility is at the link and I will have to read the whole thing, darnit.


BTW


Any opposition to the title, PROVES the point made by the title.



I mean for krist sake

[99Forever]

144. Perfect.

[Eleanors38]

154. ^^^ This. And that is my comment on "race," "racism," "privilege" in DU.nt

[Snow Leopard]

175. bingo!

[heaven05]

182. vox.com

june 7,2015--Serena Williams..and the title is quite appropriate, by the way. PERFECT!!!!!!! If you can't aknowledge the seriousness of the racism described in the article quoted, don't use, "I won't be in your boat, because the truth offends me when written like that". Don't need you. Always have to couch ugly in nice to appeal to the ones who daily exercise their white privilege and don't want to hear about people who are hated for their skin color and no other reason. That is truly perplexing response of no merit....respect for black people has never been a two way street for the privileged of this country who demand it, but never give it. Give up this BS....and the same goes for the ones who agree with your post.

[hunter]

187. Respect from me is reflexively given to all, but easily lost.

"Punching up," even in the physical sense, I'm used to that. I will always continue the conversation or walk away. Walking away is a good option for either side in a dispute.

I'm a somewhat functional autistic so I never really know if someone loves me or hates me until they kiss me or hit me.

I have no patience at all for people who demand "polite" conversation when it is them making all the rules for what is "polite."

I always say what I think and I expect the same of others. I'll call you an asshole, and you can call me an asshole. I frequently say things that offend people. I hear many things that offend me.

Whenever the conversation is too important to be veiled in "polite" then fuck polite. Remove it from the discourse, do not take offense. Bleed openly.

Be honest.

[951-Riverside]

2. The funny thing is oppressors don't like to think of themselves as oppressors

These oppressors murdered millions and enslaved millions more while destroying natural resources, overthrowing peaceful countries and installing brutal dictators yet they have the nerve to fold their arms and say "humph!" when confronted.

[GummyBearz]

15. Yep

All the above is an accurate summary of my day today. Time for a little relaxation now before I get back to the grind stone tomorrow.

[madfloridian]

23. It doesn't help to use the term "oppressors" so generally.

It puts people on the defensive. Not everyone oppresses and not everyone is racist.

[malaise]

67. Not humph - but you'd better

speak to them nicely about their evil

[Nuclear Unicorn]

87. Who are the oppressors? How do we identify them? By their actions or is the evidence only skin deep?

[bettyellen]

92. implying something you can't quite say?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

113. That's kinda what I'm asking.

[bettyellen]

116. If racists are deemed to be deemed racist by the color of their skin? Seriously?

Where the hell do you get the idea that #allwhitepeople were crying over Serena's massive success? That's crazy.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

119. I don't think #allanypeople are anything

The only human constant is we all get to decide who we want to be and that's what makes racism so dehumanizing -- it seeks to rob people of that one singularly unique characteristic of humanity and reduce us to mere appearances.

[kenfrequed]

104. Oh so very true!

The privelaged and wealthy like to imagine they got there through hard work. People that are closet racists like to point out exceptional minorities that they respect or roll out "black friends" or try to justify their racism statistically.

Colonizers see indigenous people as morally inferior or lazy or unproductive.

The list goes on.

[Solly Mack]

3. K&R

[Nye Bevan]

4. It's all in the framing.

"Let's figure out how to try to end racism" tends to produce a more productive dialog than a sneering "white people are SO privileged!" assertion.

Just as "join me in condemning the racist attacks on Serena Williams" is less confrontational than posting about "feasting on white tears".

Of course, there are people in this world who are more interested in stirring up racial animosity than in actually having a civilized debate. Unfortunately.

An analogy would be approaching the problem of America's disproportionate imprisonment of minorities by starting a thread with the title "Why do so many black men commit crimes and go to prison?", then wait for the (justifiably) hostile responses to roll in, then say, disingenuously, "but WHY are black people so FRAGILE about this? Why is it so HARD to talk to them about this problem?"

[Scootaloo]

5. That's not an apt analogy at all

Precisely because it is black men being disproportionately targeted by police and fed into the prison system. They are the people being disadvantaged and dispossessed by a system that is dominated by white authority.

[Nye Bevan]

6. It's a hostile, argumentative way to frame the issue.

Just as "making lemonade with white tears" is a hostile, argumentative way of framing the issue of racism against Serena Williams.

The thing is, hostile, argumentative OPs get many, many more responses, and much more attention, than more measured ones. And to some, that is preferable to a more civilized and productive thread that sinks faster.

[Scootaloo]

22. Your analogy is still not an apt one.

[Person 2713]

170. Ikr

[jtuck004]

19. "people in this world who are more interested in stirring up racial animosity" < Mostly white ones.

Interesting, that.

Perhaps the next generation will be better, though.

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Perfect example of a race baiter

Hate to stereotype - but it's true.

[jtuck004]

35. Or, maybe you are just incorrect. Since it's a simple fact, and true. It may be

Last edited Tue Jul 14, 2015, 08:31 AM - Edit history (1)

race-baiting, but it is still correct.

It is just my observation - but the people most concerned about race baiting are some of the biggest racists. Race baiting refers to things being stirred up, while racist prefer the people of color to "stay in their place"

A few hundred years of white racism doesn't lie

So to all you white supremacists, both the ones who think they are and the ones to whom it comes as a surprise...

...your time is over.

[JustAnotherGen]

45. I don't think it's time is over unfortunately

I think we are in the second round - only now it's securing what was earned. Shit's going to get real ugly real quick.

The thing that gets me is - young black Americans (this white tears meme) is nothing new - which shows me that most of the people at DU in an outrage over those specific words do not have any interaction with young African Americans outside of say a work environment or a place where that young black person is the ONLY black person (could be banished for telling the truth so they smile in their faces while flipping the bird when they turn away). If they did - it wouldn't be like -

Oh my GOD! Why did that guy write that yesterday!

I'm sorry - but if they knew our kids and young people on a day to day basis - they would understand that they use this term for white people who ARE racists and bigots with such extreme prejudice that their heads explode when confronted with Black American Excellence. And that distinction is necessary until we have eradicated every single thought that a black person in American ONLY succeeds at the expense of a white person/Affirmative Action.


Example - this Williams sister - they HAD to make themselves feel better by stating she's using steroids.
They HAD to question Obama's place of birth.


When they realize their bullshit is without merit - white tears.

It's pretty simple - if young AfAm aren't talking about you - you have no worries.

If it touches a nerve to see white racist bigots with EXTREME prejudice against black folks being made fun of an stereotyped -

Then one should explore WHY that nerve got touched.

[jtuck004]

50. I say its time is over because I think the country is over. It's too integral to our success,

and I don't think one can remove it without killing the country. I don't think it will be the proximal cause of the end, but I think the country will be ended, and that chapter with it.

What is after is still open...

As far as the whole outrage thing - none of this comes up at all until we discuss treating people of color with respect and appreciation. As long as people stay in their place, it really doesn't come up.

So I kinda like seeing stuff like this - it means change is in the air.

[JustAnotherGen]

52. I hope you are right

I'm 42 and when I read a heaven05 or talk to my uncle Otis (Alabama born and raised pushing 80) - and they tell me -

Things are reminding them of when they were young kids -

That's frightening.

[LuvLoogie]

60. Don't you think that our system also allows us to thwart the evil that men do?

Our Constitution transcends the people that wrote it and seek to implement it. Evil men try to manipulate that system. It is a liberal system and tries to codify boundaries and justice. It does not codify choices and cannot predict what men will do. But it does allow for society to react to changes and still try to remain whole and organized as a citizenry.

Lincoln was born and raised in this country, Martin was born and raised in this country, Serena was born and raised in this country. And slowly, but surely, our society has been making the right choices.

[jtuck004]

78. Have you taken a thoughtful look at Congress lately?

Our Constitution protects the minority. The evil in men, and women, has figured out that they can completely stop progress in the name of certainty and fear. In our economy that can be a death knell.

Were you at the city council meeting last night where they were arguing for more racist policing of minorities? They thought that was the only "right choice" sane people could make, given that our streets are overrun with hordes of immigrants bent on killing all of the innocent ones among us. Well, that's what they said, more or less.

MLK Jr, et al, Those people you mention made some mighty good quotes. Some are on the gravestones of those around today's victims of those "right choices" we have been making. So is that 35% unemployment while we chose to make bank$ter/donors richer - and among that 35% group they have a 40% chance of dying earlier.

WE made, and are continuing to make, that choice with our votes. Hey, it helps mostly white folk. 'Cause they mostly run the big banks and money pools, eh? Let's hear it for protecting the minority and choices.

We have been organized as a racist society taking advantage of the weak, and that has mostly just changed in form over the years. It's how most of our wealth has been made, and now lost. It is also how we are inflating the current economy on the backs of about 100 million of our less fortunate Americans. (Read Timothy "Killer" Geithner's book Stress Test for the details, and watch voters laugh at his face when he tries to spin it otherwise, here.

Those folks last night at the council meeting, others one might hear on the radio and tv - they will not change. They will watch this earth burn down around all of us before they agree with any progressive (which is why like liberals, since they can then get a compromise, but that's another post) point of view. They have taught their children and their grandchildren these things, and those folks are in the police departments and city and state governments all over the country. Even when they quit their jobs they organize against progress and civil rights in the community.

Is it getting better? From a white point of view, most respond yes in surveys. From a person of color's point of view, maybe not so much.

[LuvLoogie]

204. What country would you give rise to after killing this one?

What country is free of Racism, Sexism, Religious Bigotry? Who would judge and resolve disputes? How?

It doesn't stop. It never stops. Evil can thrive in ANY system because, ultimately, the choice resides with the person in power in ANY given situation. People will kid themselves, their moral compass, and justify an evil choice by dehumanizing those that would be abused. Others come by it easily because they are sociopaths.

Right and Wrong do not need Constitutional backing. Yes evil has thrived in our system, but it also thrives in chaos. Justice must overcome retribution. Justice requires a framework, Retribution does not.

And there are new fronts in the struggle. Anonymous versus the NSA is one. Both using the same systems and tools, but to different ends. A Constitution is another tool, as is a hammer. It is how we CHOOSE to wield it that determines whether we build or destroy.

[jtuck004]

206. I didn't say I would kill it, you did. I said it would kill itself. What comes after is not up

to me, but to the victims of the ignorati that destroyed what, arguably, could have been a good deal for everyone.

Sure it's a tool.

We have 47 million people on food stamps, and those who can work, mostly, do. And they are being kept there because the money that could have made them better was given to bank$ter/donors to keep them wealthy because it was supposed to be better for everyone. (Explained in Stress Test - author Timothy McVe...I mean Timothy Geither. (I get my killers mixed up) - and ridiculed here.

It is how the tool is being wielded now that concerns me, and it is being used to beat the weak over the head to advantage the wealthy. And I think that will end this county.

We will see. Bye.

[randys1]

118. God I hope the time is over, but not yet. Wait till the vile, filthy, disgusting puke fuck

teaparty animals try to destroy the rights of Gay people for a while, then they will refocus on you POC.

they will only go down fighting.

sadly

[LanternWaste]

70. that may be accurate for anyone who focuses on format rather than content in any given discussion.

"It's all in the framing..."

I suppose that may be accurate for anyone who focuses merely on format rather than actual content in any given discussion. And no doubt, it's much likely much more convenient to one's bias to do so...

[Nye Bevan]

75. Here's how a real grown-up does it.

THE PRESIDENT: As you know, a few moments ago, the grand jury deliberating the death of Michael Brown issued its decision. It’s an outcome that, either way, was going to be subject of intense disagreement not only in Ferguson, but across America. So I want to just say a few words suggesting how we might move forward.

First and foremost, we are a nation built on the rule of law. And so we need to accept that this decision was the grand jury’s to make. There are Americans who agree with it, and there are Americans who are deeply disappointed, even angry. It’s an understandable reaction. But I join Michael’s parents in asking anyone who protests this decision to do so peacefully. Let me repeat Michael’s father’s words: “Hurting others or destroying property is not the answer. No matter what the grand jury decides, I do not want my son’s death to be in vain. I want it to lead to incredible change, positive change, change that makes the St. Louis region better for everyone.” Michael Brown’s parents have lost more than anyone. We should be honoring their wishes.

I also appeal to the law enforcement officials in Ferguson and the region to show care and restraint in managing peaceful protests that may occur. Understand, our police officers put their lives on the line for us every single day. They’ve got a tough job to do to maintain public safety and hold accountable those who break the law. As they do their jobs in the coming days, they need to work with the community, not against the community, to distinguish the handful of people who may use the grand jury’s decision as an excuse for violence -- distinguish them from the vast majority who just want their voices heard around legitimate issues in terms of how communities and law enforcement interact.

Finally, we need to recognize that the situation in Ferguson speaks to broader challenges that we still face as a nation. The fact is, in too many parts of this country, a deep distrust exists between law enforcement and communities of color. Some of this is the result of the legacy of racial discrimination in this country. And this is tragic, because nobody needs good policing more than poor communities with higher crime rates. The good news is we know there are things we can do to help. And I’ve instructed Attorney General Holder to work with cities across the country to help build better relations between communities and law enforcement.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/11/24/remarks-president-after-announcement-decision-grand-jury-ferguson-missou

[gwheezie]

8. Reverse racism

I read the white tears article a couple days ago. Thought it was spot on. And then I read the du post about it and why am I surprised.
There is no reverse racism in the article. Black folks have been and still are oppressed in this country. Pointing out that the racist whites are upset with Serena is not racist. Black folks are not the people that need to fix racism, white folks need to fix racism. Black folks are not responsible for hurting the feelings of white folks because seriously, black folks are not oppressing white folks.
This is on us white people. We created this for our own benefit. Now if any of us start to thinking racism can not continue, one of the 1st things we have to do is accept what black people are telling us is the truth about being black in this country. Not validate it because that supposed it needs some kind of white stamp of approval. Or help black folks explain it better. Just accept it to be the truth and go from there. That is the beginning.
There is no reverse racism when black folks are telling us what they think. I don't think it's up to them to make sure they don't hurt our feelings when they respond to racism. Boo fucking hoo.
To me Serena is a national treasure. She is one of the top athletes and best tennis player in history. She is an American. She has maintained her dignity and focus and triumphed. She's had every kind of racist insult thrown at her and she stands above the anger.

[Nye Bevan]

9. "Serena is a national treasure"

"To me Serena is a national treasure. She is one of the top athletes and best tennis player in history. She is an American. She has maintained her dignity and focus and triumphed. She's had every kind of racist insult thrown at her and she stands above the anger."

I agree with these words 100% and I believe every other good-faith DUer would too. We all agree that she is an incredible athlete and that the racists that attack her are disgusting creeps. See how easy it is to find common ground? So why do some feel the need to stir up shit by talking about "making lemonade with white tears?" (a rhetorical question, of course, which I have already answered).

[gwheezie]

12. Maybe I didn't explain my opinion clearly

It is not up to black folks to end racism. Or find common ground. I don't even know what that means. Find common ground between who?

[Nye Bevan]

13. "It is not up to black folks to end racism".

I'm not sure who is claiming that it is, but again, I agree 100% with this statement too.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. Some white people want black people to admit they're racist....

That way they can say, "See? Everyone is equally guilty."

It's classic false equivalence (as perfected by CNN).

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

166. Thank you so much! Getting black people to admit some "reverse racism" means that it absolves

white folks of their responsibility.

No way, no how.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

179. It gets better with each generation...

[gollygee]

185. That's not actually true

The only generation where it got better was with the baby boomer generation, and that's because they actively worked at it. It doesn't get better on its own. There are a few articles linked in my journal you can read for more specifics, but there have been two or three studies - one was just an MTV one so not necessarily very good but another one was a very good study - that show that there has been very little change in level of racism from one generation to another since the baby boomers.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

193. There are examples on this page of racists desperate to pass on their tradition of hate...

But it can get better.

[gollygee]

195. I agree it can

but the problem is that it's the default at this point. It will take active work. We have to commit to it and actively teach NOT to hate, not just assume kids will grow up without racism if we are approach it in a neutral way. The baby boomers are the last generation who really protested and talked about it before now, and they made a huge difference. We have that opportunity again right now, but we have to keep protesting and talking about it.

[randys1]

112. Privileged white people dont believe, as you can see in this thread, that racism is their

problem.

We see proof of this every single time the issue is brought up.

Remarkable privilege

[Skittles]

21. thank you

it should refer to RACIST TEARS

[artislife]

81. ^^This

There is no reverse racism when black folks are telling us what they think. I don't think it's up to them to make sure they don't hurt our feelings when they respond to racism. Boo fucking hoo.


When I see the phrase reverse racism, I know the speaker has no deep understanding what racism is or does.

[Starry Messenger]

14. K&R

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. Some whites act like you're projecting onto them the entire history of racism and get angry....

Others act like they're doing everyone a favor by not being racist.

Others act like discussing it is DANGEROUS because it "stirs them up".

Some will get in my face over this post.

[sufrommich]

34. Exactly. nt

[lapislzi]

58. I will, but not in the way you think.

This white person (self) is a beneficiary of white privilege just like every other white person. I know it. Just because I didn't "ask" for it doesn't make it less so.

I am not going to cry the crocodile tears of white guilt because I don't find that particularly productive. I also know I have no right to ask for help in improving myself and my outlook--admittedly filled with biases known and unknown--from any person of color. Nobody of color owes me one damn thing. The only thing I can offer that isn't freighted is the service of listening with empathy. If that's even possible (I don't know).

I do not wish to be made comfortable. Being comfortable is what got us here in the first place. Being afflicted and puzzling it out is the only way I can see to evolve myself.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

97. What part of the US are you from?

[lapislzi]

107. Metro NY area

I also spent 10 years in South Africa's apartheid state. I learned a lot there. Still have a lot to learn.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

111. I wondered where that mindset came from that POC aren't supposed to help you deal with it....

Of COURSE they're not. Just like they aren't to blame for their own oppression.

South Africa whites under apartheid claimed to be an island of civilization in a sea of primitive savages. It's no wonder Republicans supported them because they felt the same way in the South. Still do.

[lapislzi]

125. I never said I was smart.

At least not about race. What I was trying to convey, and I probably did it badly, was my own awareness of being undeserving of any type of goodwill. I've done nothing to earn it. The mere act of *not* being a total asshole isn't much of an accomplishment. Being ashamed is pretty worthless on the face of it.

I see a lot of white people expecting "credit" for not being overtly racist. You saw it much more nakedly in South Africa. As if you deserved some kind of award for not beating your domestic workers. Was that sanctimony worse than the unvarnished, matter-of-fact behavior of the unreconstructed Afrikaner? I don't know. Both types still exist there, and likely will for a long, long time.

So, I hang around these discussions hoping to improve my "get it" factor. Only time will tell if it's working.

[Zenlitened]

141. FWIW, IMO you've expressed things pretty well.

Put into words a lot of what I struggle to really conceptualize down deep and really understand.

So, I hang around these discussions hoping to improve my "get it" factor. Only time will tell if it's working.

Me too.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

150. I was raised an Air Force Brat...

Last edited Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Born on Guam. My parents had parties where all the races mixed. Later transferred to Vandenberg wrapped up in the space program where again, they had multiple races as colleagues and friends. Moved to Battle Creek Michigan after that which is a place with a long history of blacks and whites going to school, working as brothers in unions and living side by side. My own color is a throwback to the Potawatomi and Crow in the family. Turns real dark in the sun and almost never burns.

[Skittles]

20. no one likes to be stereotyped

NO ONE

[DustyJoe]

59. Totally spot on

The daily bandied terms of

All Blacks are thugs
and
All Whites are racists

are perfect examples

[840high]

203. .....

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. You know what I can't stand about stereotypers?

They're all alike.

[randys1]

114. Or enslaved, or refused service in a hotel or restaurant. Or questioned when if you were white

the questions would NEVER come.

Yep, no one likes that shit, but one group whines about it when they have ZERO experience with it, while the group that is devastated by it for centuries, deals with it maturely and reasonably.

[Skittles]

171. OMG

get some therapy, please

[MrScorpio]

24. Reccing for truth nt

[Cryptoad]

25. Racism has its roots in ,,,,

our primal fears........ it aint goin away quickly or easily!

[Exilednight]

61. Sadly, racism will never disappear. It's

A psychological thought process based on fear and beliefs. It's not like extreme poverty which can be stamped out with giving people basic physical needs, instead we would have to outlaw thoughts and beliefes which is, and should be, an impossible task.

That is not to say that we can't educate people about racism, and that we can't change a majority of minds, after-all many Americans have a herd mentality, but it will never be completely wiped out.

[betsuni]

26. So, this title: "Serena Williams Drinks, Bathes In, And Makes Lemonade With White Tears"

upsets some people. Based on the idiom of making lemonade out of lemons, the lemons in this case tears from "a particular type of person" "the most racist sports fans possible." Racism against the Williams sisters is well-known and easily researched. "Her entire existence is an elaborate troll for white tears." The white tears meme is clearly mocking racists who clearly exist.

Yet the joke of the "white tears" of racists is offensive? No, it's not. I'm going to the market to get more tissues because this thread is becoming damp with white tears like the other one. Hope there's a sale.

And in the other article, "White Fragility: The Unbearable Whiteness of Being," the author is correct that one of the most important things is humility.

[sufrommich]

39. This is what I don't get,who reads on DU

"Serena Williams Drinks, Bathes In, And Makes Lemonade With White Tears" and thinks "wait,that guy's talking about me"? Seriously,if you're white and not racist,he's not talking about you!!!

[Nye Bevan]

43. So if I make an offensive statement about "black people",

and when called out, protest that "obviously I wasn't talking about all black people", that would make it OK?

Why say "white tears" when "racists' tears" would be more accurate? (Yes, I know..... more animosity, more replies, more recs, and a guaranteed slot on the Greatest Page......)

[sufrommich]

47. Please,just stop with the reverse racism crap. A black man wrote an

angry article about racism in tennis. The Williams sisters have battled that racism since they dared to prosper in a
"white sport",that's not an opinion,that's a fact. DU is losing its shit over the fact that he wasn't nice about it,get over it.

[JustAnotherGen]

51. Plus 1

If you go back and take a peek at Nye's post from two years ago at this time - he/she has always struck me as focused on how things relate to them personally.

I just think he/she always thinks it's about them - an individual.

I know he/she is focusing on reverse racism - but if that's what he/she was always taught - and to be color blind - I think we should adjust for that individuals life experience and upbringing -

Just as I've asked someone to adjust to heaven05's jim crow upbringing as a young black person (now my mom's peer) below. He kind of sort of learned along the way that to go direct against a white person in America is to lose your life.

[sufrommich]

54. You posts in this thread are the epitome of calm reasoning.

I wish I had that trait,but I don't. As I said in another post,if you're reading the blog post about racism against Serena Williams and thinking "that guy is insulting me",you've got bigger problems than some black dude on the internet using a tone that makes you uncomfortable.

[JustAnotherGen]

63. I'll probably get some indignant response from someone

But thanks anyways. I'm just trying to point out to our fellow du'ers - that they too make fun of white racists - as we all should! They are not good people and they have historically harmed everyone from blacks to jews, to Irish indentured servants, to Native Americans, and now really loading up on Mexicans and the GLBT communities. And still double back for another run over of black folks.

If someone wasn't at one of those Confederate Flag rallies that struggle4progress posted about yesterday - your feelings shouldn't be hurt - and you shouldn't be defending black people looking down their noses - WITH GOOD REASON - at white racists.

Good white people - my mom, my husband - hurt no one.

Bad ones - lynch, rape, murder, give shitty high interest loans to, don't hire, refuse to wait on, etc. etc. black people. <----These are the racist types. This is what they ARE and how they behave. There's nothing wrong in the world with looking down on people who are inherently inhumane to other human beings based on their skin color.

There's something 'not right' with that . . .

[Starry Messenger]

55. +++

[7962]

80. Then it should read "bathes in racists tears" instead of a blanket insult

A minority of people have a problem with her then point out THOSE people

[gollygee]

31. This has been on DU before, and I'm glad it's here again

Because it is so true. If we can get over ourselves a bit, we can do a lot more work on dismantling racism. If we get offended very easily, it shows we have a lot more work to do.

[sufrommich]

32. I see the "tone" argument is being bandied about

in the responses to this OP. A black blogger dared to be less than pretty when talking about racism,why can't he be nice about it? How many times has The Rude Pundit been admonished for his tone on DU? I'm going to go with never.

[gollygee]

33. LOL Just once

(when he used the c word) but I wouldn't be surprised if the same people upset with the tone of these two pieces were among those defending the rude pundit.

[sufrommich]

36. Good point. It's only minorities that need to watch their words

lest they hurt someone's feelings.

[betsuni]

41. And always with the "shush, stop being so childish and immature, let the real grown-ups talk."

[sufrommich]

42. Yep, perfect description. nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

167. Uh-Huh! Look at how these fools talked to me in that other thread. Ridiculously condescending.

I will never shut up! Never! If they don't like it, they can kiss my ass.

I'm fucking rude! LOL!

[romanic]

37. I think some White members on here

just feel like their being passively-aggressively attacked by (a few) black members personally when they react to memes like "white tears", etc. I saw it in Serena's thread where some white DUers react and then a couple black DUers dogpile and make fun of them. How is that productive to discussing racism when everyone is attacking one another over bullshit semantics. And because of that, no one really talks about the "meat" of the article.

Like I said before, I think everyone needs to grow the hell up and stop being sensitive and stop being passive-aggressive when it comes to discussing race/racism/bigotry/etc; dropping such generalizing terms would be a good start.

[Nye Bevan]

44. There's a reason that Barack Obama is President and the "lemonade with white tears" guy is not.

Look at any of Obama's speeches about race. Somehow he is able to avoid passive-aggressive sneering, offensive and hostile framing, and deliberate attempts to stir up animosity. That's because (unlike some) he genuinely wants a constructive, productive conversation.

It is, indeed, good to have a grown-up in the White House.

[JustAnotherGen]

48. I don't know about reactions - linking article BY a white person - not my words

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/354209/white-persons-reaction-obamas-trayvon-martin-speech-lee-habeeb

That’s the thing about real empathy; you have to walk in the shoes of all people, not just the ones you agree with or relate to. I was waiting for that part of the speech because President Obama is uniquely qualified to give it. Because he is half white and half black, just as George Zimmerman is half white and half Hispanic — just as most Americans are half something and half something else.

Part of the speech given by President Obama was sensitive and filled with the right kind of emotion and tone. The warehousing of young inner-city males in prisons for low-level crimes is a tragedy and also a national disgrace (one, by the way, that white Christian conservatives are working hard to rectify). Disparity in sentencing is a real problem; too many African-American males are sentenced far more stringently than whites who commit similar crimes.

And the president was right to talk about the terrible disparity in unemployment rates between white people and African Americans, and the particularly high rate of youth unemployment in our inner cities. White people need to know more about these facts, and President Obama was right to talk about those things. But what I did not hear from President Obama — the part of the speech that was missing — was any mention of the very real tragedy of so many young African Americans being warehoused in schools that have been failing them for generations.

That author is a bigot. To compare a person as accomplished as Barack Obama who came from a broken home with a single mother who was TREATED and VIEWED as a black man all of his life -

To ask him to compare himself with a Peruvian/White man of Privilege (privilege in terms of growing up in affluence)

Is the mind of a bigot in action.


So - even the most innocuous speech some white guy somewhere panty bunched because Obama couldn't see himself as a guy who would SHOOT a black child.

That article is beyond the pale and indicative of a deep sneering that goes on *I think* inside of white America when minorities aren't around to hear them.

At no time ever has President Obama been a loser who couldn't keep a job or a relationship with a woman. Two men could not have been more different in upbringing, HOW they experienced America and what they chose to do with their lives.

We'll never know what Young Martin would have done - but based on the closeness of his family and their willingness to stay on him, keep him in the fold, and make sure he was welcome in either parents' home -

He probably would have chosen well. No way with his mom and dad they would have let him 'gone for bad'. No way.

And because I come from a large extended black family - I know and the average white American who does not have that interconnection (at the family level) would not know.

[bettyellen]

82. And that's why we don't expect bloggers- like the Rude Pundit - to POTUS standards-

Are you seriously suggesting we should? That's pretty crazy.

[Nye Bevan]

85. Certainly not *this* blogger.

That would, indeed, be crazy.

[bettyellen]

86. Or *any* blogger outside academia, really. I get it though-

White people OWN snark too.

[Kingofalldems]

46. You mean like this response to me

when I opined that I thought the OP was race baiting?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6969912

[JustAnotherGen]

49. heaven05 is a senior citizen

African American man who literally lived through the Jim Crow era.

He was taught by white America to do just what he did.

And the younger generation uses this phrase "white tears" because no one in the dominant culture is listening to them anyways. Until it comes up at DU to chastise them for using a quick phrase to express their astonishment when white racists cry/moan/throw temper tantrums whenever a black American rises to the top.

Do you do that? Nope.

But a lot of white folks in America who you probably don't rub shoulders with (blatant bigots and racists) do.

There's no way they would let it show to you - because they probably know you don't hold their same resentment and anger that black people do anything in America other than shine shoes.

[randys1]

122. One group told to suck it up on a message board, the other murdered at will by cops and

racists for 200 plus years., enslaved, Jim Crowed to high heaven, prevented from voting in TWENTY GOD DAMN FIFTEEN OR SIXTEEN

Yet it is the ones who were told to suck it up who are whining the most.

Remarkable but not new.

BTW, the behavior of some white folks in this thread, like so many others, is the DEFINITION of white privilege.

To complain of a title that points out the truth about white people, proves the point of the title.

you have to be DENSE not to see that

[romanic]

209. Pretty much.

If you don't agree you're "RACIST". It's a tactic employed by a select few on here to stir shit up,they already know who they are and think they can do as they please. -_-

ETA: And to make a point, no I am not some troll. I'm actually in agreement that white privilege and white racism should be called out, but I am not going to broadbrush every single white person with immature memes like "White Tears" or "White Fragility" or any other trendy lingo employed by some fringe. If you don't like well I can be just as immature and say "fuck ya'll" too.

[Kingofalldems]

210. Thanks.

[HFRN]

53. you dont cure racism, by spreading more stereotypes and generalizations nt

[JustAnotherGen]

56. Racism towards black people or towards white people? n/t

[HFRN]

57. either nt

[JustAnotherGen]

62. That's where the discussion dissolves to pieces

It's not racist to make fun of white racists. White racists make fun of all black people. Young African americans are making fun of white people who are racists towards them. Their racism shows every time a black person excels and they scream "no fair!" or "they only got there because they are black!" or "how dare that n-bomb!"

I would think the average white liberal or progressive would be right beside them - because they are NOTHING like the average white liberal or progressive who sneers at bigots.

The only way for young AfAms to strike back - make fun of those who hate them. You take them too seriously - the bastards will get ya down!

[HFRN]

64. the OP was 'White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism'

it wasn't qualified as 'white racists', it was 'white people', so you did a bit of straw man here

and my feeling is if you want to 'rise above' they way to do it is to do just that, rise above it, rather than trying to win a put down or stereotype war

and I think this is the issue, that made MLK a great man, understanding that at some point/level you have to choose between getting even or moving forward (that doesn't mean waiving all claims to justice, but it does affect the motive while getting justice, what it is you really want)

[JustAnotherGen]

69. okay - so you aren' t familiar with where this OP came from - context is everything

I'll share with you - you are still fairly new at DU - so the best approach when you aren't familiar with 'what's going on' is to ask.


Serena Williams Drinks, Bathes In, And Makes Lemonade With White Tears
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026969528

This thread is a spin off of that thread from yesterday. It's the next step in a conversation.

Now - since you probably aren't aware of the blog that KamaAna posted from yesterday - The guys there also did this post:

White Tears, Explained, For White People Who Don’t Get It
http://verysmartbrothas.com/white-tears-explained-for-white-people-who-dont-get-it/

From the article:

So, what does “White Tears” mean? Where does it come from?

“White Tears” is phrase to describe what happens when certain types of White people either complain about a nonexistent racial injustice or are upset by a non-White person’s success at the expense of a White person. It encompasses (and makes fun of) the performative struggle to acknowledge the existence of White privilege, and the reality that it aint always gonna go unchecked.

A nationally prominent example of this is Fisher v. University of Texas, a court case that basically boils down to a slightly above average White woman upset her slightly above-averageness aint granting her the birthright privileges she believes she deserves. Instead of banging a gavel, the judge presiding over this case should just shake a Dasani bottle full of Abigail Fisher’s tears.

Again, this doesn’t apply to all White people. Just the type who’d be frustrated that a person like Serena is dominating tennis

Only a bigot would be upset about Serena Williams dominating tennis - get it now?

It's easy for a white person to in America to 'rise above it all'.

We can't just rise above it HFRN - You might be able to. But I have a nephew that just started a job at an investment firm (hedge fund) in Manhattan last month. He's 22 - he's a 'smart brotha'. But that doesn't matter to racist with a gun and a chip on their shoulder because he worked hard and beat them at the game of life in America. On the internet - he can laugh about 'white tears' - but when confronted face to face by Zimmerman type - he will be shot and made out to be a thug and a lowlife - and the Zimmerman type will get support for being a mediocre loser who can't even keep a relationship for more than five minutes. . .from white racists.

If a couple of very smart brothas offend you with the words they use - perhaps you could reach out to them and offer to guest post on their blog - to better explain to them why their words are wrong and they should focus on the words - as opposed to their VERY REAL EXPERIENCE in America - that white racists really need to hear.

Here's some other blog posts by the very smart brothas - they are equal opportunity 'make fun of-ers'

50 Cent Is The Worst Type Of Person: Powerful And Petty
*this is a rapper who recently filed bankruptcy - he's kind of a massive jackass
http://verysmartbrothas.com/50-cent-is-the-worst-type-of-person-powerful-and-petty/


VSB Roundtable: The One Where We Talk About Camille Cosby
*Camille Cosby is the wife of Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby is a comedian who has had several successful network shows. They go back and forth about denial being more than a river in Egypt
http://verysmartbrothas.com/vsb-roundtable-the-one-where-we-talk-about-camille-cosby/


Bill Cosby, Dirty And Guilty Old Shit, Admits To Being A Dirty And Guilty Old Shit
*See above - for who Bill Cosby is
http://verysmartbrothas.com/bill-cosby-dirty-and-guilty-old-shit-admits-to-being-a-dirty-and-guilty-old-shit/

They kind of just like to make fun of shitty people in general!

[HFRN]

71. I'm not going to bother citing the red herrings, rationalizations and false assumptions in your post

nor am I going to claim that you don't have legitimate grievances

but i will suggest that you're free to justify all you want about the size of the chip on your shoulder - after all, the weight is on your shoulder - not mine

[JustAnotherGen]

72. I have no chip on my shoulder?

How could I?

And could you explain the red herrings?

There is no rationalization - that is a PHRASE used by young black African Americans when white Americans aren't around. They don't WANT to offend you. They really don't. It's an explanation from a young, very smart brotha to explain to you what you are unfamiliar with -

The words and inner lives of black people in America.

And false assumptions? I didn't see where you responded in the other thread. Did you respond to it?

What is the false assumption I made?

Suggesting you reach out and see if you could explain to young black Americans why they are racist for making fun of white racists who wish them harm? And how by using that phrase they are inherently racist?

I simply made a suggestion for you to take your grievance, annoyance, and feeling the young man who wrote that blog post was being a racist to you and all white people -

By making fun of white racists.

[randys1]

124. And your interaction here is text book illustration of white privilege in America.

I dont know why it is so fucking HARD for some to see it, but evidently it is.

Amazing, their very argument proves our point, over and over.

[me b zola]

65. Generally speaking, people who benefit from the mechanisms of oppression rarely want to admit to it

When a person of color speak frankly far too many people who consider themselves allies clutch their pearls and manage to make themselves the victim. The same happens when working class people speak out about Wall Street and the financial institutions and their practices. The same for women speaking frankly, same for adoptees.

All of the peoples that I have mentioned are admonished repeatedly that we have to talk nice, to tip-toe around the feelings of those who benefit from the institutions and practices of oppression. 'Hush, don't hurt anyone's feelings with your uppity mouth' is the message that we hear when we dare speak up.

I came to the conclusion that if I keep silent I am condoning practices that need to be condemned. If someone wants to consider themselves an ally, then behave like it and you won't get your feelings hurt.

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. The Serena Williams OP to which you refer wasn't "talking to" whites, it was "talking at" them.

It was trolling, which isn't inherently bad, but isn't intended to, nor will it, create a conversation.

So when you use that foodfight as exemplary of why white people don't listen, you're participating in the trolling.

Not every finger in the chest deserves a reaction.

[bettyellen]

84. Up thread someone suggested they phrase things like Obama does, lol.

Because that's what we always say to the Betty Bowers and the Rude Pundit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. Does anyone ever wring their hands that...

... a Rude Pundit post doesn't create dialog? That Betty Bower's latest didn't raise awareness?

They are trolls, that's what they do; they are great at it and entertaining to read.

Trolling was the whole point about the making-lemonade-with-white-tears post... except for the entertainment value part.

[bettyellen]

91. Well I think some people enjoy snark but avoid serious commentary and they actually might learn some

Things from reading Rude or this guy.
But if you're reading some serious anti- racist snark and your reaction is "hey! He wasn't nice (or scholarly) enough" it is indeed time for some self reflection.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. To the extent that there is a serious point behind that op

... that Serena Williams faces unfair scrutiny and speculation about her musculature because she's black; it seems to me that is to be expected on a website in which that kind of speculation has become a passtime.

[bettyellen]

99. I think it goes way beyond her muscles- same as it does with Michele O.

I've seen some of the same vile comments about both.

[randys1]

126. The Serena thing is solely about race, like with Michelle, as you say.

BUt privilege allows me to deny that If I want to.

Privilege allows me to walk out of the house as a member of the ruling class while anyone not wearing my invisible cloak of privilege will have a VERY VERY different experience, all day, everyday, everywhere they go.

[bettyellen]

156. Well I think there's a fair amount of sexism that intersects there-

I can't imagine any man getting shit on for having such a buff body- but any woman will get shit for not being cute.
I remember people reacting with disgust at gorgeous pics of her, and I do agree it was mainly about race, but Serena has a double burden.

[randys1]

158. Oops, absolutely.

I am embarrassingly take part in a social reality show chatroom, just one, just one show, and today I came across dozens out racists and people who hate Obama solely for being a Black man with the nerve to get elected president.

They would make really intelligent remarks like "Obama is a traitor" so I would ask them to explain their answer.

No answer other than "He is afraid of the Russians" and shit like that.

We have a very dumb, very ugly country here, parts of it anyway.

disgusting

[artislife]

79. I am half brown half white to clarify

First, the crap the Williams sisters and the First Lady take from John Q Public is vile. And these Beautiful Strong Women represent millions of PoC.

I have two brothers. One looks very Latino/Native and the other one looks Irish.

Guess which one was pulled over for speeding and spent a week in lock up without being charged and which one who fought with the cop and only got a ticket.


Lets get away from the words of this piece and get to the experience of this piece. No one wants to feel bad, but how long are PoC supposed to gently wait while some people come to terms of what this American Life experience is truly like?

[randys1]

127. How long before the privileged class lets go of their bullshit?

Never, has to be forced so to speak.

Not with violence, but with government and shame.

That is why i say you start with reparations, everything else is bullshit till you do that.

Can you IMAGINE what Tom Delay or Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly would be saying if it were THEIR ancestors who were slaves, had everything stolen from them, forced to work for nothing, killed in brutal ways, etc. Imagine these spoiled little shits on the receiving end of Jim Crow, or Tom's son killed for mouthing off to a cop like in Ferguson. Shit...

Can you IMAGINE them NOT demanding reparations?

I cant...

BTW, this is EASY for me, a white guy, to say.

A Black person cant say this stuff, and I dont want to speak for them.

[Iggo]

90. "I say give it a try..."

"...Costs us nothing, really. And it's actually pretty painless, only stings for a little while."

That's it, right there.

[LittleBlue]

93. When will people admit that there will always be racist trolls

And that there is nothing anyone can do to stop someone from tweeting? It isn't society's job to police the jackassery of every member, nor is it even possible. The OP acts like a nice conversation with racists will force them to behave with manners. If only they listen they will realize the obvious truth of the "awakened" perspective.

How has that worked for you? Converted any twitter trolls lately?

[bettyellen]

94. So give up and ignore racists? Okay then.....

[LittleBlue]

96. You could, you know, actually be doing something to help the black community

But we know some are doers and others are just talkers. Arguing with twitter trolls isn't accomplishing anything except in your imagination.

[Quayblue]

98. with all due respect

The internet plays a large role in how we interact with each other nowadays, whether we'd like to admit it or not.

There are trolls and then there are people like Dylan Roof. I think it's fair they're called out immediately and as frequently as possible.

[LittleBlue]

101. Roof and trolls have one thing in common

Neither will be swayed with words. It ends up as an exercise of preaching to the already converted.

[Quayblue]

120. I disagree.

But it's all right. I'm just not going to be quiet because that's not a risk I can afford to take.

[bettyellen]

100. Nice assumption, but it's actually a dodge. Silencing dissent is your answer. Noted.

[randys1]

128. As a POC, what are you doing to accomplish a resolution to this?

[LittleBlue]

151. Nothing

Because there is no such thing as a resolution to internet trolling.

[randys1]

157. Who is doing the trolling?

[heaven05]

192. not you

that's for sure.

[heaven05]

191. actually keeping

a subject like this in the light helps a lot. In my years fighting injustice, racial, social, economic, yes I have the literal scars to prove it, I found allies such as the one you're criticizing as invaluable in the overall fight to stop racism based on color.

[awoke_in_2003]

102. Some of the responses in this

and KamaAina's post may lead me to start using the ignore feature. I cannot believe the amount of butt hurt some white people are having over this. For the record, I am white and thought KamaAina's post was hilarious.

[randys1]

129. Butt hurt is the phrase, for sure. And it never stops.

[Agnosticsherbet]

105. we live all our lives swimming in a sea of white privilege.

Even those of us who abhor the racism in all its forms, do not realize how it molds us.

[randys1]

159. Absolutely. A SYMPTON of it IS the DENIAL of it. Why cant they see that!!!

[KamaAina]

106. You got that right.

Our former director tried to have an officewide conversation about race, with predictable results. Nearly everyone acted as though she had accused them of being Klan members. And when offered the chance to participate in a daylong workshop rather than work, most stayed in their cubes!

[smirkymonkey]

108. +1000

As a white person, I don't really understand why so many white people have a hard time getting this. It has never been difficult for me to understand.

[ibegurpard]

109. Because people think they're being attacked

When it's pointed out they have biases. Many liberals will deny it until they are blue in the face. There is nothing inherently wrong with bias...it's natural. What is wrong is refusing to examine and question your biases. If you refuse to acknowledge them how can you grow?

[MisterP]

117. maybe it's all the race-baiting trainwrecks?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026969528

[randys1]

131. You consider Kama's post RACE BAITING? Seriously?

[Nye Bevan]

135. President Obama never refers to "white privilege" or "white tears".

But he is an actual grown-up who wants to have a serious, productive conversation.

[Quayblue]

147. Now all of a sudden President Obama

is the descriptor of decorum??

and particularly when it comes to how black people should behave when discussing race?

and just because he hasn't mentioned it so you can hear it, does not mean it hasn't been discussed. I'm almost certain he is aware of the phenomena the OP refers to being that he has dealt with similar insolent behavior from his subordinates.

but go ahead and cook..

[Nye Bevan]

148. I don't remember MLK snarking about "white tears" either.

But like President Obama, he was more than a shit-stirring blogger in pajamas.

[Quayblue]

152. go ahead and hold on to that if you must nt

[randys1]

161. I am stunned how white people will drag MLK or Obama out when they think they

can make a point doing so.

And yet they always expose their prejudices when doing so, never make the point they think they are making, it is embarrassing.

I am not talking about you, of course.

[taught_me_patience]

123. Blatant denial of institutional racism right here on DU

Hard to solve problems with people deny that it even exists.

[Nye Bevan]

130. Did you alert on the post that denied institutional racism?

I didn't see it, but a jury would probably hide it.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

136. You just can't help yourself, can you. You do realize that people here can see right

through your bullshit, don't you.

[Nye Bevan]

137. THANK YOU

for that thoughtful contribution to this important discussion.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

139. Any time. I know you're joking since there's no fucking way you'd

actually consider what you do here as thoughtful contribution. But tell you what. Why don't you go ahead and post another not so clever poll so you can stir the shit some more?

[Nye Bevan]

142. Thank you sincerely for that suggestion.

But I already posted a poll some time ago that showed me where DU stands on this issue:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024279050

I appreciate your feedback, however.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

145. Exactly! "White people should be reminded of how privileged they are on a regular basis."

Did anyone here suggest that? Or were you having an argument with yourself? Maybe there's a 3rd possibility. You were doing some good ol' trolling so you can the go "What? What'd I say. What me? No never......"

[Nye Bevan]

146. Cool, I guess you and I are both in the 63% majority of that poll.

Who says it's hard to find common ground?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

149. We could find more common ground if we can recognize that it was

a bullshit strawman poll in the first place, meant to stir shit. You're right this isn't too hard.

[randys1]

162. The results of the poll is an example of white privilege.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

163. But there's no such thing..... even if there were. We need to keep it quiet and

not bring it up. Especially in an anonymous discussion board. Oh mah stahs why be so.... rude?

[randys1]

164. If half or more of so called liberals are still stuck on stupid when it comes to this, or

stuck on denying their privilege, we really have a long ways to go.

And can we expect the AfAm community to continue to show such patience and reason as they have for the past


TWO HUNDRED FUCKING YEARS ????

[gollygee]

186. No doubt

That poll isn't surprising. A majority of white people, even liberals, hate hearing about white privilege. A good portion get really and truly bothered by any discussion of it. That's just evidence of how bad racism is in our country.

[heaven05]

188. Oh it is

and is enjoyed by many each and every GENERATION, so far. Powerlessness is the feeling of something slipping from your grasp and not be able to stop it from slipping and eventually disappearing. Difficult to face, isn't it? Gee so many in these threads on racial relations in america scream and whine as that privilege is pulled from their grasp. And don't be fooled, it is being pulled from the privileged grasp of white dominance, soon to end also. Gasp!!!!

[Nye Bevan]

198. The primal scream in November 2008 when the presidency was seized from the grasp of white males,

where it had been for well over 200 years, was something to behold.

Privilege inexorably slipping away, indeed.

[heaven05]

184. ummm, ummm, ummmm

sad. Just no clue about the transparency of your stance and how truly sad it really is. Leave MLK out of it please, don't insult his greatness with your inability to express your feelings of powerlessness in the face of truth here.

[artislife]

132. I know

It's not like they will personally be hurt by admitting anything.


Just pride..


Their pride is very fragile.

[randys1]

133. Yep, same folks do it everyday, yet I find new ones in this thread.

[hughee99]

134. I fear I'll say this more bluntly than I intend to,

but when you say you want to have "a conversation" about a topic and basically start out by telling someone their opinion has no value and they don't know what they're talking about, you're always going to get off on the wrong foot and you're always going to get resistance. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about racism, sexism, baseball or the weather, it doesn't even matter if your right about their opinion having no value.

[HFRN]

138. they dont want to have a conversation

they're subjecting you to 'encounter group therapy'

i'm not joking, that's what it is/what it's called

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-groups

[Eleanors38]

155. Heh. ^

[Zenlitened]

172. How we react is a measure of our own character, or lack thereof.

When we truly don't know what we're talking about, but have big loud opinions nevertheless... that's on us.

When someone tries to help us expand our horizons even a little bit, but we refuse to hear a single goddamned word they're saying... that's on us.

We show our worth, or lack of it, every time we encounter an idea that challenges us.

And if we've made it to adulthood somehow unaware that the topic of race in America is going to feel challenging sometimes... if we're going to throw a fit when things don't suit us just exactly so... then we're really not worth much at all.

I'm trying to be worth a little more than that, cultivate a little bit of character in myself. Even if it takes some difficult work sometimes.

That's on me.

[hughee99]

174. If someone tells you that your opinion doesn't matter, before they even hear it, simply

because of the color of your skin, that's not going to encourage almost anyone, even the open-minded, to listen to what follows. A "conversation" where only one side's opinions are valid isn't a conversation, it's a lecture. Plenty of people go willingly to lectures to learn, but when people start into what they think is a conversation only to realize they're in a lecture, they tend to be less open to new ideas.

[Zenlitened]

178. You say, " they tend to be less open to new ideas"...

I say, that's on them.

They need to step up and get serious, or just admit that they don't actually care to address the issues around race at all.

Seriously, who expects to be handed an invitation and served tea and crumpets before any discussion about race begins?

It's not like the topic has never come up before. (I'd hope.)

This whole notion of "say it sweetly or I won't listen" is just a cop-out.

[hughee99]

194. If you want someone to listen to you, telling them to shut up, listen and agree is a bad way to go

about it. You know what white privileged is? They don't HAVE to talk about it, and they don't HAVE to think about it. You say they need to step up and get serious, but in reality, they don't. They're white. They have white privilege. They don't NEED to do anything. If one wants to change minds, they need to be a "salesman" of ideas.

Say it sweetly or I won't listen is a reality and it doesn't matter whether you're trying to talk about race, the environment, or sell a set of steak knives. If people don't have to listen, and they don't want to listen, they won't. You can blame them all you want, but in the end, it's your interests that suffer.

[Skittles]

181. it's the newest meme, don't you know

you cannot have an opinion without being accused of having HURT FEELINGS and being told to GET OVER YOURSELF

[lovemydog]

197. Not quite true, imho.

If I want to learn about baseball I'd ask someone who knows about baseball.

If I want to learn about sexism I'd ask a woman more likely than ask a man.

If I want to learn about racism I'd listen to a black person more than I'd listen to white person.

And I wouldn't talk over them while they're trying to tell me more about it.

I probably wouldn't try interjecting all my lovely 'opinions' about it either.

Can you imagine talking with someone about baseball and the conversation goes something like this:

Person A: Tell me about baseball.

Person B: Well, I played in the major leagues. There's a pitcher and a batter. The pitcher pitches the ball to the batter. The batter tries to hit the....

Person A: Why the hell should only a pitcher pitch a baseball? Why can't the outfielder pitch a baseball? The outfielder know how to throw a damn baseball!

Person B: Well, I can explain if you listen.

Person A: I don't like your tone. You suck.

[hughee99]

199. What if you aren't thinking about learning about baseball, and someone starts

a conversation with you about baseball. They make it clear that your opinion doesn't matter to them, and they want to just tell you how it is and have you accept it. You may ask some decent questions, even some which baseball experts have debated amongst themselves for years, but in the end they tell you "I can try to explain it, but If you haven't experienced it, you won't really understand".

The problem isn't the people who WANT to learn about racial issues. The problem is how do you talk with the people who aren't thinking about them at all.

[lovemydog]

200. I learn more from someone who knows about baseball than me.

And I don't offend them by interjecting my opinions at every turn. And I don't whine about it if I'm wrong. And I don't say that the reason I never learned more about baseball is someone else's fault. There's plenty of ways to learn about baseball. If you really want to learn about it. If a lot of people are discussing baseball and I don't care to learn more about it I leave the discussion. I don't go and give them shit about it. And I don't celebrate with my non-baseball loving friends how obnoxious those baseball experts behave.

[hughee99]

201. If you really want to learn about racial issues, you can do the same thing.

the thread title is "White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism".

It's hard because many white people aren't thinking about racial issues, and if you want them to think about racial issues, you have to talk to them about it. If your starting point is "If you haven't experienced it, you can't really understand", while that may be true, you've just told them that no matter how much they listen to you, they're still not going to "get it". That's not going to get many people to listen.

I don't think it's that hard to talk to people who want to listen, but if you want to really raise awareness of an issue, you have to talk to more than just those people.

And yes, there's some people that just aren't willing to listen no matter what. You have to just write those people off.

[Turin_C3PO]

140. That thread title was bad.

People are, of course, free to speak and write how they choose, however that was a needlessly insulting title. I'm very thick skinned so it doesn't really offend me personally but I don't think it is a valuable way to open discussion with most people (be they white, black, male, female, right, wrong, etc).

[heaven05]

183. white privilege is a very fragile thing

and many are truly fearful they have lost it or are going to lose it. As examples of responses to your OP here typifies. White dominance/superiority is inviolate you know and very important to a multitude/legions of people who benefit directly from it. It's a privilege thing.

[Zenlitened]

189. I think you're exactly right.

It was stunning, to me at least, to see racism come roaring out from its closet starting the very minute Pres. Obama was elected.

And I've been just as stunned by the reaction of way too many white liberals even now, when the topic of race comes up.

The knee-jerk, automatic, instantaneous denial and defensiveness... wow. It's sad, not to mention pathetic and pointless.

As if merely acknowledging privilege will make the ground open beneath our feet. I'm pretty sure it won't!

[heaven05]

190. no the ground is firm, so far

but the quake(s) of social change is starting to open fissures that scare the hell out of many, here and in general society.

[JustAnotherGen]

207. I keep reading that you can't start a conversation about race with the wrong language

That very smart brothas blog post? Their audience - young aware young black people.

If the they started every article at their blog with - First things first, measure your tone and be aware of the feelings of the dominant culture and ask their permission to speak first. . .

Their readers would dump them.

And why does a young black man who is a blogger have to start the conversation in the first place?

I think what's really going on here - that guy - he showed some DUers something they weren't prepared for . . .

The conversation about how polite bigots react to black excellence is always going to be one where bigots are made fun of. Some of the little pups I know - All In The Family is enjoying a renaissance. They feel like Archie is one of them and in on the joke. In perusing that blog - I'm convinced every single writer is a devotee of that show. It has that feel of - this is a segment of America - now lets laugh at them.

Note - not all Americans - but those who are bigots towards blacks. People at DU are taking this to heart because they want these folks at that blog to play nice. obviously not people who sat around as kids and made fun of each others mom.

[heaven05]

211. astute analysis

the hidden bigots at DU can't stand in your face truth and an OP such as this brings them out screaming and whining about unfairness and such. What a joke a lot of them have shown themselves to be. My eyes are opening more and more as to the depth of bigotry and racism in this country just by some of the so called liberals and progressives that post here. It's not surprising though. Knew they were here from day one. A post like this? They can't help but show their true feelings about their privilege(s) in a society geared toward granting that sub group their wishes based on skin color. That blog makes me proud. Still fighting and, more importantly, winning the moral high ground more and more everyday from the racist, privileged of this country.

[locdlib]

202. It's not difficult at all. It's uncomfortable for some, but not difficult.

When that hateful article was posted about Serena, I'm not sure how anyone in their right mind would think that such hateful sentiments would be responded to with puppies and kittens and hugs. Would silence have made some of you feel better? Too bad. That is not how people react to hatefulness. Even though so many on this board saw the white tears response as hateful, it was not nearly as hateful as the one that attempted to shame Serena. So just know this, people who are offended by the white tears post: when something hateful and derogatory is posted about someone, especially someone who is a champion (like Serena), just know that some people will come for you in a way that you won't like. It's simple: people who are so easily offended by those who dare to point out offenses, and gasp, defend themselves or an offended party, are typically the ones who are the main offenders.

[pansypoo53219]

208. why? because they would have to admit they like 'white priviledge'.

[ProfessorGAC]

212. I Believe Your Simple Post. . .

. . .hits on two major points. First, you may be completely correct. Secondly, it seems like the problem may be rooted in two places.

Do people acknowledge the privilege or do they deny it? If they deny it, that's certainly a problem.

If they acknowledge it, however, therein lies point 2. Too many of these discussions use the term as a bludgeon.

So, i'll throw myself out there. I acknowledge the existence of the privilege. No doubt in my mind. However, i also don't buy being beaten over the head with it because i'm not a causative factor (merely an effect) and i don't see how it's productive, particularly if i admit it's a real thing.

That seems to me, why these threads turn into circular firing squads.