If Jenner can be a woman while still sporting a penis, why can't Rachel Dolezal be African American?

[uhnope]

sorry to be so blunt, but just sayin'

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/02/living/caitlyn-jenner-name-style-decoding-feat/

Whether Jenner will feel complete as a woman while possessing a penis is a question only she can answer.

The NAACP was cool with Dolezal. Why is white culture freaking out?

[brooklynite]

1. Race is a physical characteristic

Has she had her skin color changed permanently?

[MosheFeingold]

9. Just wait a while

People will be saying they are really a different race than they were born and get tattooed or dyed (or bleached) or whatnot. Heck, there is Mengele-worthy means of changing eye color already. I am sure with enough money there is a doctor somewhere that will do this.

My joke has been Michael Jackson was WAY ahead of this trend. He turned himself into a white woman!

[Adrahil]

19. Not really....

Race is a human construct based largely on morphological features. But genetically, it's basically impossible define "race."

[DeadLetterOffice]

200. This. Yes. n/t

[Drahthaardogs]

234. That is absolutely not true

there are distinct genetic patterns depending on one's decent. Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA tend to be associated with certain races or at least regions of the world.

[DeadLetterOffice]

237. Not race, no. Region, possibly.

Molecular anthropologists are often asked if DNA markers can tell what "race" you are. The short answer is "no." Mitochondrial DNA and Y haplogroups can tell from which continent your matrilineal and patrilineal ancestors came.

[Drahthaardogs]

244. Which, by human definition (cause race or breeds are a made up term) is essentially race

It would depend on what you define as race. Are the Basque people a race? Nationality is not race per se. French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Italians were at one more or less, the same race. I don't know, its tricky but there sure is a cultural and at least to some degree biological tendency towards race.

[DeadLetterOffice]

249. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Android3.14]

276. You might disagree, but the facts are the facts

Race is a cultural construct.
http://bigthink.com/words-of-wisdom/bill-nye-theres-no-such-thing-as-race

[DeadLetterOffice]

283. Yup. Totally.

I'm just not interested in beating my head against a brick wall tonight is all, and it seemed like that conversation was going that way.

[Drahthaardogs]

435. Bill Nye? You break out an engineer to argue genetics and anthropology?

Relethford the Author of The Fundamentals of Biological Anthropology notes race as - a group of individuals that share some biological characteristics. They differ from other groups according to these characteristics.

So, Bill Nye should be worrying about Rault's Law and STP and not worry about genetics.

[Android3.14]

452. The choice in characteristics is both a matter of culture and...

members of a race may not share all characteristics.

For example, President Obama is biracial, yet still identifies himself African American. It is painfully obvious that the definition of race, as with the definition of homosexual, is changeable over time and within cultures.

[Adrahil]

288. So is a kid with a white parent and black parent black or white?

Like the concept of "species," it is a classification we find convenient as humans. But it doesn't actually exist as a discreet thing. We're all a collection of alleles.

[Android3.14]

354. "We're all a collection of alleles"

That's beautiful.

[JustAnotherGen]

358. With all due respect

Rachel isn't one of us.


My Father (whose beautiful soul is in heaven) was black - my mother is still alive and white.

Rachel has two white parents.

TBH - It's pretty insulting to imply that she has had my same life experiences, family experience etc. etc.

Here it comes - 'bi-racial kids are fucked up because this white woman who tans a lot and wears a wig is fucked up'.

SHE IS NOT ONE OF US. .

Yes - I was ^ yelling ^ - because I'm insulted. Her parents didn't get run off the road when her mother was close to full term with her older brother - Mine did. That's the reality for REAL mixed race families in the late 1960's / early 1970's in Kentucky.

I'm not driving into every. single. fucking. experience. I've had.

But please - knock it off.

This was 'settled' to white Americans satisfaction led when a black man with a white mother entered the White House.

At no time ever have all the bigots in this piece of shit inherently racist country EVER accepted him as white -


Except when they want to be little bigoted snots.

Find another analogy - she doesn't have the life experience of a bi-racial person -

Comparing her to us - it's just fucking bullshit. And you know it is. You know it.

[Adrahil]

362. Oh, I agree...

but the idea that we can neqtly categorize people into races based on DNA is simply false.

I'd say race in America is more about lived experience than exclusively DNA. The fact is that very many of us have very muddled genetic ancestry.

[JustAnotherGen]

364. Thanks - I figured you would

[whathehell]

32. and gender is not?

[NuclearDem]

78. No, it's not. You're thinking of sex.

[whathehell]

87. No, I'm thinking of body parts -- biology. n/t

[NuclearDem]

91. ...which is what sex is.

Sex refers to male and female, gender refers to masculine and feminine.

[whathehell]

111. See post #106. n/t

[Android3.14]

355. Often we are on the same side of the fence, but not this time

There is gender (XX or XY), and then there is gender identity. Jenner's gender is male (XY); her gender identity is woman.

[uppityperson]

95. Gender identity is not dependent on body parts. Women who have no uterus or ovaries are still women

Last edited Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:12 PM - Edit history (1)

A man who, for example, has his pelvis severely injured in a bombing, has no testicles of permitted remaining is still a man. Right?

[whathehell]

106. Sex and gender have been used interchangeably

for the last millennium or so. It's only recently that some scientists are now making distinctions -- Everyone does

not agree that "gender" is all in the brain.

[uppityperson]

117. I had a hysterectomy, am postmenopausal. I consider myself female, a woman. You deny me that?

Wow. I do not have the biological parts to make me female, a woman, it is only in my brain so not real?

Again, wow.

[whathehell]

133. Yeah, me too

but there is always the matter of the gender one was born into and lived.

Besides, it's not only the sex organs that make one gender differ from the other -- It's facial features, musculature,

hormones, etc.

[uppityperson]

157. Postmenopausal means none of those female hormones, which makes women's features coarsen, facial

hair sprouts. I've more muscles than many women my age also.

Guess I'm no longer a woman, then.

[whathehell]

224. None of those facial changes has happened to me, and I've been post-menapausal for awhile

I have more lines and my face is not as firm as it once was, but it hasn't 'coarsened' and

I have no additional hair at all.

[RobinA]

397. Oh For Heaven's Sake

Two X chromosomes make a person a female. Add or subtract body parts, homones, facial features, XX equals female.

Unless you are a bird, and then XY equals female.

[whathehell]

399. No kidding..

but I don't think I'm the person you want to be talking to.

[uppityperson]

416. Is your point gender identity is dependent upon your chromosomes?

[Snobblevitch]

210. Uhm, yeah you do still have the female body parts that make you a woman.

The removal of reproductive organs does not change your gender/sex. (Not to mention chomosomes, even though those do not change with gender reassignment surgery.)

[whathehell]

247. Thank you. n/t

[uppityperson]

252. What body parts "makes you a woman"? You seem to also say being a woman is dependent on

xx chromosomes. Is that correct?

[Snobblevitch]

255. I was just posting biological facts.

The parts that females are born with that males are not born with is what makes them female and vice versa. There are things that can be done to reverse this using hormones and surgical procedures, but unless a woman suddenly grew a post-menopausal penis and scrotum, she's still a she.

[uppityperson]

259. Unless a person fully transitions physically, they are still he/she as they were born?

Unless he were to grow a penis and scrotum, you'd still call him "she"? Unless she grew a vagina and labia, you would call her " him"?

Are you saying your genitals are what make you a gender?

[uppityperson]

261. Is the person in this reply a real man? He no longer has those biological physical

parts he was born with that "makes him male". So, is he male?



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026847018#post150

[Snobblevitch]

269. The only point I wished to make is that a woman

who has a hysterectomy is still a woman after the operation.

[Zorra]

311. No, you are posting your point of view, and are making absolute statements based on minimal

information.

[Snobblevitch]

322. So you bieve that a woman who has a

hysterectomy is no longer a woman. Wow.

[uppityperson]

417. It depends. For someone transitioning to their perceived gender identity of male, no. For those

who continue their perceived gender identity of female, yes.

[Snobblevitch]

419. None of my posts on this thread are about transgender people.

[uppityperson]

420. Yes, you have. The Op is about that, and yes, you have posted that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6848222
"The removal of reproductive organs does not change your gender/sex."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6848724

The parts that females are born with that males are not born with is what makes them female and vice versa. There are things that can be done to reverse this using hormones and surgical procedures, but unless a woman suddenly grew a post-menopausal penis and scrotum, she's still a she.

[Snobblevitch]

425. That was my way of explaining

that a woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman. I was not referring to gender reasignment surgery. Any other intrepretation of my comments is not what I intended.

[uppityperson]

426. ok, thanks for clarifying. eom

[LostOne4Ever]

161. Until about 300BC most of humanity thought the earth was flat

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]It's only recently that some scientists are now think it might be a globe--Everyone does not agree that the earth is "a globe."[/font]

[whathehell]

245. Um, I wouldn't call that the best analogy..

but whatever floats your boat.

[Aerows]

301. And even then

they understood the concept of transgendered persons.

I'll just point in the general direction of Greece and if the person wants to be more enlightened they can actually read about it. Or, you know, even the Old Testament addressed it, and not with the "burn them at the stake" interpretation that is so prevalent in Puritanical culture that continues to pervade and pervert our society.

[whathehell]

108. Lame.

[countryjake]

265. Jury Results and the Administrator's Terms of Service

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic.

Just because it isn't listed here, doesn't mean it's ok. If you post anything which is obviously disruptive, malicious, or repugnant to this community, its members, or its values, you risk being in violation of these Terms of Service.

On Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:18 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Using the word "thinking" is another mistake you keep using...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847516


REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

what's with the rude personal insults?

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:35 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Personal insults not needed.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Some people need to rethink pushing alerts
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Stupid remark.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sometimes it becomes necessary to be blunt when confronting transphobia. The question asked in this OP is an egregiously rude personal insult to all trans people and their allies, to our members here at DU and those out in the world community. It's not at all surprising that anyone struggling against transphobia would take deep offense at some of the hurtful questions being asked within this thread.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No need to go there. Not everyone has the same body of knowledge and experience.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Flat out personal insult. Tame compared to most, but this stuff has gotta' stop.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[whathehell]

382. Thank you, countryjake.

I really appreciate your support.

[countryjake]

415. Your sarcasm is noted.

I will never understand the unthinking callousness with which some people go about smearing and deliberately hurting members who were born into this world slightly different than themselves.

[Matariki]

63. According to Wikipedia, race is a social concept

Gender is a social concept, which has traditionally been aligned with biological sex but is increasingly being accepted as separate from biology. I guess it's really down to societal perception and acceptance of what is 'normal' and permissible and what is 'crazy' and not permissible.

[pnwmom]

340. So is gender, at least as much as race.

Both are also social constructs.

[HERVEPA]

2. Wow. Dumbest post ever. Read a bit about transgender then try again.

[H2O Man]

30. "

[pinboy3niner]

35. Nailedf it. This thread is an uhnope.

[Zorra]

302. ^^This^^ Yep. nt

[gollygee]

389. Dunno. This one gives it a run for its money.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6850872

[MineralMan]

3. That's just ugly.

You should consider self-deleting this. It's transphobic.

[myrna minx]

4. What an ugly post. Shame on you.

[ismnotwasm]

5. That's fucked up

Just sayin'

[whathehell]

84. Why?..Why is it all so negative?..I think unhope is just asking an honest question

that is, by the way, being asked in other places, and no, not "right wing" places.

The alert on her OP was a huge 7 to 0 fail, so I'm guessing a lot of DUers are not bothered by it.

[Aerows]

93. If it was a 7 to 0 fail

Then either I'm in the wrong place or there is something else going on here that has clearly escaped me.

[whathehell]

126. My bad. It was a 5-2 and that is still a large fail.

[forthemiddle]

165. On this discussion board

Shouldn't we be having a discussion that the rest of America is having?

[uppityperson]

172. You mean like is Obama Kenyan?

I suggest you read this link..http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[uppityperson]

98. No, it was 2-5 leave, not 0-7.

Not on jury but here are the comments.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

just sayin'

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 01:46 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hurtful, rude and insensitive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: fair question, I guess.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: hiding this POS just sayin' . To begin with penis or no Caitlyn is a woman, Rachel is white. Bit of a difference in those two things.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Perhaps a penetrating remark, but I'm lost in the forest of illogic.

[Aerows]

113. That's bad enough :(. n/t

[Skittles]

216. Juror # 7 illustrates the iqnorance quite clearly

[Aerows]

221. It's the whole

gleeful RW "Ha ha ha, we've got those liberals now, transgender people are fake just like this white woman pretending to be black ha ha ha."

It's demeaning, and seeing it here makes me ill, sad and frankly, questioning why the fuck people perpetuating that meme are here. Hell, maybe I don't belong here if that is acceptable.

[Skittles]

222. of course it is, but juries are a crapshoot

people who JUST.DON'T.GET.IT........we just have to keep fighting them - seriously, if they think a comment like that is OK, they are BIGOTS

[jberryhill]

226. I should have written a better alert message

I thought it was self explanatory, but I should have taken my own advice and made the alert message more clear.

[Aerows]

228. Any rational person

could take a look at that damn post and wouldn't even need an explanation as to why it was garbage.

Not your fault, it's the fault of the 5 that let it stand and the 1 that posted it to begin with.

[whathehell]

116. Still a pretty big fail.

I wasn't on the jury either.

[HERVEPA]

151. Honest question my ass

[whathehell]

243. Thank you for sharing.

but I stand by my opinion.

[HERVEPA]

251. Do you have the slightest clue how stupid your wavey thiong is in these situations

[whathehell]

370. It was late. That being said, the opinions of those who can't spell a word like "thing"

rarely concern me.

[HERVEPA]

371. For your knowledge, there is a difference between "can't spell" and a typing mistake

[whathehell]

376. For yours, we have something called "spellcheck"

You might want to try it.

[HERVEPA]

383. You might want to ......

[whathehell]

393. You might want to....

as well.

[HERVEPA]

395. Wow. Such originality. (are they your false teeth)?

[whathehell]

398. Yes, you too!

False teeth?...No, mine would bite you on the ass.

[HERVEPA]

404. So glad you're no longer in Philadelphia

My sympathy to Chicago

[whathehell]

422. Me too

since you're exactly the type I was happy to leave.

[ismnotwasm]

159. It's TERF-like and I dislike TERF additudes

While Gender is fluid, with gender characteristics blending into one another, along with biological sex 'conditions' such as AIS, societal imposed norms are all heterosexist. Either females or males may be Trans.

Race shouldn't have started to matter to humans at all, but it did and does. For the third time in these threads I'll ask, if a dark complected Black person went around claiming they were white, how do you think that would work out?

[whathehell]

239. What is "TERF-like"?

I have no idea and who is to say "gender is fluid" and race is not?..These are relatively NEW phenomenon

and I'd say it's a tad early for non-scholars to be claiming expertise and adopting rigid attitudes.

[ismnotwasm]

291. Ew.

[whathehell]

380. "EW"?

Oh, excuse me...Do all the 'cool kids" know what that means?

Gawd -- How gauche and rude. I'm really surprised and disappointed in you. I thought you were better than this.

Clearly, I was wrong.

[Codeine]

168. I don't think the transphobic nature of the DU jury pool

is any defense this poster can hide behind.

[whathehell]

231. I don't think it's fair or accurate to automatically categorize the DU Jury pool as "transphobic".

Again, the OP was asking a question -- I don't know why that's such a big problem for you and some others here.

[Skittles]

227. the question is being asked by transphobes / bigots

there are plenty of people on DU who DO.NOT.F***ING.GET.IT.

[whathehell]

233. That is a matter of opinion

one a lot of people on DU, me included, do not share,


Even if "not getting it" is what's going on here, that doesn't automatically make the unenlightened "bigots" or "transphobes".

Transgenderism doesn't exactly have the benefit of being an ancient, well-researched phenomenon.

[Skittles]

262. NO IT ISN'T

if you diminish trans folk by insinuating they are just like this gal who is claiming to be black, YOU'RE A BIGOT

[L0oniX]

372. Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE - Explanation: Calling it what it is ...is not hide worthy.

[Skittles]

405. the jury gets it right

OMG the idea this has to be explained on a PROGRESSIVE BOARD is VERY disturbing

[irisblue]

377. alert results

On Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:17 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

NO IT ISN'T
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6848825

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

YOU'RE A BIGOT,labels do not belong on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:25 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Calling it what it is ...is not hide worthy.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree with the alerter, and while I do give poster props for spelling you're correctly, I say this deserves to be hidden.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[whathehell]

402. YES IT IS

and if you continue to diminish and insult me and others here who believe in

open inquiry, YOU'RE A FASCIST.

[Skittles]

406. "open inquiry"

[whathehell]

421. because the question has been indisputably settled

[Skittles]

450. it IS settled

in the mind of ANYONE with critical thinking skills

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6852665

[countryjake]

418. Here's Fascism for you...

[whathehell]

423. No idea what that is..

but fascism can be represented by more than one thing.

[polly7]

429. Come on ....... it's a concentration camp prisoner's outfit and number. nt.

[whathehell]

448. "Come on"?

Sorry, I really did not recognize it as such.

[countryjake]

268. The Administrator's Terms of Service...

Just because it isn't listed here, doesn't mean it's ok. If you post anything which is obviously disruptive, malicious, or repugnant to this community, its members, or its values, you risk being in violation of these Terms of Service.

Why don't you ask Skinner what his opinion is on gender identity?

[Aerows]

300. Excuse me!?

"Transgenderism doesn't exactly have the benefit of being an ancient, well-researched phenomenon."

BACK UP THE TRUCK.

It has been recorded and documented since human civilization has been documented.

Let me point to any assortment of Greek works, or hey, let's look at Native American beliefs closer here to home.



Assyrians, Egyptians, Hebrews (you know that thing called the Old Testament?), yeah, not one of them mentioned it, and no, even in the Old Testament it isn't exactly "burn them at the stake, heathens!" either.

You are woefully misinformed. I highly recommend that you update your reading list. I don't have enough *time* to provide all the links I would need to give you that absolutely, categorically and fully refutes that statement.

[whathehell]

375. Before being excused, you have to actually read my post

because you are clearly confused.

What you are pointing out is the existence of transgenders throughout history -- I never denied their existence

and I certainly NEVER argued that anyone should be "burned at the stake"

What I said, was that it has not been long RESEARCHED -- you know, via with the scientific method?

We have eons and scores of "beliefs" stemming from earliest recorded time. That doesn't mean they

were scientifically researched. Get it now?

[lovemydog]

313. No, it's not a 'matter of opinion.'

It's about listening to others and learning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

[whathehell]

367. I'm afraid it is, and if you had "listened and learned" from a larger pool of people,

and I am talking about people of color, like MSNBC's Melissa Harris-Perry for one,

who are responding to the Dolezar case, you would find that the trans-racial question

is still being discussed, with no "correct" or final word on its legitimacy yet established.

Firstl of all, you might recall that the NAACP itself issued a statement supporting Rachel Dolezar.

It seems they were more concerned with her work than with her self-identification.

If you watched Melissa Harris-Perry's televised interview with Ms. Dolezar last night, you would have learned that

Ms. Harris-Perry is sympathetic to Ms. Dolezar. Her disclosure to Chris Hayes that she is "fighting

with my friends", gives further evidence that the matter is still "under discussion", making final

conclusions at this point, premature.

My personal opinion of Ms. Dolezar is that she is emotionally disturbed, but that is irrelevant.

My problem here is with all those who are insisting on closing the discussion at such an early juncture.

Excuse me, but as progressives, are we not supposed keep open minds? I find the angry demand to shut

down the entire discussion disturbing and very much at odds with those values.

[lovemydog]

384. No one from that larger pool is successfully pushing 'trans-racial' as legitimate theory.

Critical thinking considers a weak argument and rejects it. I saw that interview. Yes, I saw some sympathy from Melissa Harris-Perry toward a troubled individual. I didn't see her pushing the notion that 'trans-racial' is a legitimate concept. An argument that suggests that race is a vague or fuzzy abstraction can be considered and rejected. Tamara Winfrey Harris addresses this in her New York Times opinion piece:

'In the days since this story broke, many people have been quick to point out that race is merely a social construct — as if that fact changes the very real impact of race on the lives of minorities. The persistence of systemic racism means there are penalties for blackness in America.

Black women — real ones — live at the nexus of that oppression and enduring sexism. The gender pay gap is steeper for them. They are more likely than their white counterparts to live in poverty, to be victims of domestic homicide and sexual assault. If Tyisha Miller and Rekia Boyd, black women who were victims of extrajudicial violence, had been able to slide into whiteness — for just a moment — they might still be alive. (Perplexingly, Ms. Dolezal told Matt Lauer that her decision to identify as black was a matter of “survival.” That is rich, indeed.) But racial oppression is not as easy to shrug off as racial advantage. This is partly because America has spent centuries ensuring that certain people can never be white.

Being able to shift one’s race is a privilege. Ms. Dolezal’s masquerade illustrates that however much she may empathize with African-Americans, she is not one, because black people in America cannot shed their race. We cannot proclaim the black race a nebulous concept, while strictly policing whiteness and the privileges of that identity. I will accept Ms. Dolezal as black like me only when society can accept me as white like her.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html?_r=0

[whathehell]

392. Not in the extremely short time that the Dolezar case has been in the news, maybe

It's not yet even a week.

In any case, as my post mentioned, my personal opinion is that Dolezar is a disturbed individual.

That being said, a progressive site should be OPEN to discussion, especially when the subject

is as recent as this one is.

I must also mention the obvious, and that is the fact that there are SO many things you've characterized as Dolezar's

"white privilege" and her lack of experience with Black oppression that also apply to MEN transitioning

to femaleness regarding their "male privilege" and their LACK of experience of female oppression,

that you'd have difficulty arguing against the point, and, sorry, but I've heard people of color making this same

comparison and asking the same question as the OP.

[lovemydog]

396. Fair enough. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I don't want to shut down discussion. It can get to be a pretty emotional topic. But I agree with you on this particular point - I think fair and open discussion is great.

Have a good day.

[whathehell]

400. Thank you..

such a nice surprise.

You have a good day as well.

[Android3.14]

356. If so, then a satisfactory answer should be easy to provide

But a satisfactory answer is elusive at best. There is no litigation on which to rely, no definitions, many counter examples, and far too much kneejerk namecalling.

You are right that many people on DU "do not get it", but if it is that obvious, then it should be easy to explain.

Yet an explanation is complex and vague, therefore the answer is anything but obvious.

Insulting those asking as transphobes and bigots is unhelpful.

[Skittles]

407. I find it very disturbing it has to be "explained" here

Fox News and the Dicussionist, absolutely

and these "innocent questions" and "inquiries".......aw never mind

[Android3.14]

412. I find it unsettling that angry people cannot provide an explanation

Your implication there is some ulterior motive is simply an avoidance of addressing the question.

I sympathize with your suspicion. In general, I'm convinced that many posters are sockpuppets working for specific parties, candidates and corporate interests. But I also recognize that my paranoia is a lousy rhetorical tactic.

So please, make me understand why it is okay for someone to be transgender but not trans racial.

If there is insufficient reason, the result isn't that we should treat transgender people poorly, but that we should possibly treat trans racial people with the same respect and people will have to accept something they found uncomfortable a few years ago. If the reason is good, then we move on and heap ridicule and abuse on people who claim they are a different race, such as our African American President (who is actually biracial).

[Skittles]

413. HERE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6852665

[treestar]

363. +1. It is something that can be compared and contrasted

and discussed. It's odd that some people don't even want it discussed. What are they afraid of?

[whathehell]

368. Thank you...It is being discussed all across the media, social and otherwise

and I'm amazed, not to mention disheartened, at what appears to be fearful resistance to its discussion here.

What are they afraid of, indeed? I have no idea, but I do know it's best to FACE your fears instead

of trying to shut down all mention of them.

[Skittles]

408. I am not AFRAID

I am just DISGUSTED at the insinuation trans folk have the same motivations as that gal.

The serious lack of recommends shows me MOST PEOPLE HERE GET IT.

[Ilsa]

6. I wonder if Jenner has ever been

Afraid of being overpowered and raped. Or if she had to get a cosigner to borrow money because she was the wrong gender. I wonder if anyone she worked with openly speculated about it being her time of the month because she was in a bad mood. Or if she ever considered that she might die while giving birth, or if she would be treated with hostility because she had an abortion.

I understand that Caitlyn identifies as being a woman. I also think she's been a privileged white man for most of her life.

[uhnope]

12. yes being a former white man who is still rich and famous with a PR agency

might have something to do with it

[uppityperson]

17. Why do you put identifies in quotes? That is nasty towards trans gendered people, implying that they

"Identify" vs are, that it isn't really real. Please read, learn, and drop the scarequotes.

[Ilsa]

25. okay. I'll remove them if it makes you happy.

I think there is a lot Jenner has missed out on over the decades, both good and traumatic by not being a woman. A lot has changed for women during his lifetime. And I also think he enjoyed the privileges of being a white man during that time too. That is why I typed that word with quotes.

[uppityperson]

33. Also, she is a she, not a he. Her lifetime, not his. Thank you.

[Ilsa]

64. I'm sorry about the pronouns. I've of thought of

Her as male since I first saw her in the Olympics when I was in high school. I've used the correct ones in other posts.

[uppityperson]

71. Thank you.

[polly7]

83. I have a feeling she probably never felt all that privileged 'being a white man'.

It was probably very hard for her all these years. I imagine she did and does have a lot of pride in what she accomplished, ie. the Olympic records, as a person, but we're all able to accomplish things (most of us, not that great!) even while going through internal hell. I admire her bravery, she's facing such bigotry and ridicule - who on earth would choose to subject themselves to that if it weren't for something absolutely vital to her well-being?

[Ilsa]

99. Just because she may not have felt the privilege

doesn't mean it wasn't there or she didn't gain financial security from it. We all make choices and trade-offs. I have no doubt her life has been an emotional and psychological struggle. I hope she can be happy now.

[Ilsa]

67. I just can't see anyone making such a radical change

For PR and TV money. It's too personal.

[MosheFeingold]

81. People do all sorts of crazy crap for money and fame.

So I can totally see it.

For that matter, I can't see anyone watching the Kardashians, but they do.

Check back in in about 5 years and Jenner will grasp at another 15 minutes of fame by "becoming a man again."

(Scare quotes ON PURPOSE.)

[Jamastiene]

342. Oh yeah? So, what would your price be?

How much money would it take for you to fake being transgender? Think about what you said. I mean, really. I wouldn't put my worst enemy through the internal turmoil. On top of that, people are not nice. The transphobia and hatred directed toward the transgender community often comes in the form of actual murder and even in some cases having medical personnel refuse to treat life threatening injuries in car accidents and in other situations.

What is your price? How much money would it take for you go through all that?

No one would go through all that for money. I don't care for the Kardashians either, but I don't believe she is coming out as transgender for money. There would be no point. It's not like she is hurting for money.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

22. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:35 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I wonder if Jenner has ever been
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847086

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Transgender bigotry rears its ugly head. Claiming she is not a woman because she hasn't had to live with these fears is crap.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:46 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "Transgender bigotry"?? Sorry I don't get it either. A boy with a penis can call himself a girl, but a white woman cannot call herself a black woman? It's a very confusing time. I realize I'm in the minority here, but I say let it stay.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Transphobic nonsense.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see this as bigotry, and I think it's a discussion that needs to take place. For example, if Bruce can self identify as Caitlyn, why cannot Rachel Dolezal self identify as African American? Ilsa's point is not unreasonable: Bruce Jenner has led most of adult life as a famous white male athlete. I think the post should stand.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Aerows]

26. I can't believe that ball of hatred

and bigotry was let stand.

[Ilsa]

52. There is no hatred towards her or anyone transgendered.

I stated facts about women where one-third are raped in their lifetimes and the fear and trauma and healing that occurs for 1/3 of the female population. Only half of pregnancies are planned. How many women in the unplanned group consider abortion and how to safely get it? Or do they wish they'd miscarry? Or do they resign themselves to this and carry on?

Jenner missed out on a lot of big things that are a part of our culture of most women's lives. And I hope it's all rainbows for her going forward. Yet she identifies as a woman and we accept that. Why can't a person who has spent a part of their lives in the African American culture say they identify with it? Maybe she shouldn't if she wasn't treated as a Black woman. I think it's a worthwhile discussion, whether it's gender or race.

[uppityperson]

65. The difference between being forced to live a lie and choosing to do so is huge

[Aerows]

68. That was not directed at you.

I was responding to the fact that the OP did not get hidden.


The OP did not, and brought it up in a way that had so many dog whistles it's a wonder the dogs in my neighborhood aren't barking.

EDIT: Oh I see that someone tried to have your post hidden.

Who the fuck let the OP stand is what I want to know!?

[Ilsa]

72. Thanks. I think thrashing it out clarifies

the big issue and why this is emotional for people. Gender, culture, perceptions, choices.

[Action_Patrol]

286. It's disgusting that it gets to stand. Where the hell are we?

[Aerows]

294. Not the DU I am

familiar with.

[Codeine]

170. The board makes a lot of the right noises about trans issues,

but the bigotry is right there under the surface, quietly lurking.

[Aerows]

182. Well

If I'm "making the right noises" but have bigotry under the surface, quietly lurking, I'd sure appreciate being confronted on it.

I thought the OP was heinous for a number of reasons. It's difficult to get nuance from people's posts, but the OP was pretty much a 2x4.

That said, even people that believe themselves to be open-minded can have blind spots. Sometimes huge, gaping ones. Addressing them with the person is the way to go provided it isn't blatantly mean spirited as the OP was.

[Jamastiene]

344. It's not so quiet the last year or so.

I get your point, but it's not quiet at all any more. People know they can outright be as bigoted as they want and get away with it. It's disgusting.

[Chemisse]

205. What hatred?

These are questions many of us have about changing identities and what it all means.

The more we can talk about these ideas and wrestle towards understanding, the better off we all will be going forward.

[Aerows]

212. The OP used to mean Original Post, as in initial post

of a thread, now it appears that it has morphed into something different, I guess ... post that spawned sub threads.

I vociferously object to the dog whistle style of the O(riginal) P(ost). It plays into too many RW memes that have been circulating everywhere - gleeful posts of "Oh look liberals call that man a woman and now they object to a white woman claiming to be black HA HA HA" when there is an ocean of difference.

1. RD knew she was white, because she sued Howard University for discrimination against her for being white. She's also a serial liar, fabricating police reports that she was being targeted racially, all of them not passing the smell test. That harms those that are legitimately victims of hate crimes.

2. Jenner has always been female. Gender identity issues affect 1:2000 people. It has been around since civilization. If you want some citations, I'll offer them, but suffice to say, it has been documented since society could be documented. That is different than race, and certainly different from lying repeatedly and making up false stories that you were targeted by race for harassment.

Hope that clears some of it up for you, but to be honest, I'm just sickened by the whole right wing "Ha ha ha, we've got those liberals now, transgender people are fake just like this white woman pretending to be black ha ha ha."

To see this shit on DU makes me ill.

[NuclearDem]

42. Good God, why the hell was this WBW nonsense allowed to stand?

[Aerows]

75. Why in the hell

was the OP allowed to stand, because it was littered with RW bullshit memes.

THAT'S what I want to know.

[MohRokTah]

47. I would have voted to hide.

The OP is hateful to both African Americans and transgender people, IMO.

[gollygee]

51. +1

The whole comparison is, and I really think that's by design.

[MohRokTah]

55. It's a right wing meme all over the wingnut blogs and forums.

That it made it's way here is revealing, IMO.

[gollygee]

60. Also revealing

are the names of people pushing the meme here.

[geek tragedy]

54. juror #1, oy nt

[Humanist_Activist]

189. Juror one is a fucking transphobe. This board is crawling with them. N/t

[Codeine]

199. It floors me when they say shit like that.

I'm old, white, and male and I'm STILL not as bigoted as that person. Ugh.

[Humanist_Activist]

201. What fucking drives me up the wall is they are tolerated here. This is not a safe place...

On the internet for transgender people.

[Skittles]

272. but do not go anywhere

STAY AND FIGHT THESE TRANSPHOBIC PIECES OF SHIT

[Zorra]

320. Yes. The LGBT community on DU has been getting victimized repeatedly

by them for years.

This board is most definitely crawling with homophobes and transphobes.

[Skittles]

271. OMG

it is seriously fucking SAD, the DUers who claim to not know the difference - IT IS BIGOTRY!!!!!!

[Jamastiene]

343. Juror #1 just added to the transphobia.

Maybe they will come out themselves in this thread, so I can put them on permanent ignore, never having to see their drivel again.

[whathehell]

34. Thank you. Your make very good points. n/t

[Ilsa]

56. please see my comment to aerow below. nt

[whathehell]

118. I saw it and I agree with you.

[joeybee12]

135. And Jenner is the only trans woman ever since the history of mankind...

Ever think about those who identify, those poor and not privileged people who are trans and because of who they are have been picked on all their lives?

[Ilsa]

140. I think about them a lot, actually.

Their options are limited and few. Their actual choices can be heartbreaking. And some people are so selfish that they don't want their group insurance or medicaid to pay for reassignment surgery or transition therapy.

[LostOne4Ever]

146. So you think feminine men have never been raped?

Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:28 PM - Edit history (1)

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Or that people who expressed the slightest transgender interest can't be LEGALLY discriminated against? Or that you can't be legally EVICTED simply for being trans?

Or that they can't be harassed at work? Or that you can't die from undergoing the operations they do? AND YOU THINK TRANSPEOPLE DON'T GET TREATED WITH HOSTILITY?![/font]

• Over half of all LGBTQ murders are committed against transwomen. Murder rate for trans people is 1/12.


• Over 41% of all trans people have ATTEMPTED suicide


• Just trying to get a job outs you during the background check


• Transpeople can be legally FIRED and EVICTED just for being trans in some states


• Transpeople can who are homeless (because they were legally evicted) can be denied access to homeless shelters


• Transpeople have been killed just for being telling someone they were trans


• Over 21% of transpeople get incarcerated and transpeople of color have a 47% chance


• Once in jail transpeople are often thrown in with the sex they DON't identify with and are sexually assaulted (1/3)


• To avoid sexual assault those that are NOT thrown in with the general population are put in solidary confinement...something used for punishment and often called torture.


• The AVERAGE lifespan for a transwoman is only 30-32years of age.


• Nearly half Transpeople who go to the police for help often are mistreated just for asking for help.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]No, YOU and the jury that let your remarks stand don't understand anything. Least of all privilege, especially given your transphobic remarks.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/cissexism-in-the-world/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/01/transmisogyny/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/11/misconceptions-trans-ally-understand/[/font]

edit: Jury please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6848619

[ismnotwasm]

196. +100,000,000

[Ilsa]

225. I'm not the one making claims of identifying with a

Specific group. She was. One is rooted in genetics. The other was rooted in a cultural preference.

I never said transgendered people faced no discrimination or fear of persecution. I understand that he is a she. I don't care if she has a penis or vagina unlike the disgusting OP. I'm happy she has found her way out and wish she had been able to do it sooner, like some other people I've known, who were much happier after their transition.

I'll forgive you for your viciousness and namecalling which I could have alerted on. I've witnessed white male privilege and both racial and gender discrimination for almost sixty years.

[LostOne4Ever]

248. Alert away

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Assuming the jury does decide to hide, it would be a worthy hide.

You were trying to undermine her gender. The comments about rape, periods, and pregnancy all show that, and the comment about her having been "a privileged white man for most of her life" prove it beyond doubt.

There was no sincere wish to look at the privileges she has benefited from. No mention of how she would have gotten support and financial backing she needed to become an olympian, where a black man might not be so lucky. No mention of how women athletes don't have the same opportunities that male athletes have.

No, you chose to focus on things that call her gender into question. Not to mention there was no reason or need to bring up the privileges she may or may not have experienced in the first place. It was totally offtopic and out of the blue. Not a word about Rachel Dolezal and why the comparison was apt or not.

And you thought the OP was so disgusting that you didn't say a thing? But instead called out Ms Jenner instead? Not one word against the OP in your reply to them, but boy were you quick to criticize Ms. Jenner for....what? Existing?

No, I don't buy it. I won't be intimidated and I would be proud of the hide.[/font]

[polly7]

266. These statistics are pretty heartbreaking. :( nt.

[LostOne4Ever]

273. I know

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]And then for there to be people on DU attacking a trans woman on DU (if any a place that should be supportive of trans issues) is almost too much to bare.

That is why I won't play nice w/ these posters anymore.[/font]

[misterhighwasted]

305. THANK YOU. OUTSTANDING POST.

LostOne4Ever, It is an honor to meet you.
Can't say it better than you did.

[JaneyVee]

7. Dumb talking point.

[LanternWaste]

8. Confusing bluntness and adolescent petulance is the first mistake. Just sayin', part two...

Confusing bluntness and adolescent petulance is the first mistake. Just sayin', part two...

[Johonny]

10. gender dysphoria is pretty much a universal experience across countries and cultures

and many studies suggest it has real biological genetic underpinnings. Racial dysphoria can't make such claims to date. Indeed human concept of "Race" is more a logical construct than a solid genetic term.

This appears to be a rather small subset issue for one woman than a huge issue that may effect 1:2000 or more human beings.

[Ilsa]

131. Thank you. This was the most

Clarifying post for me. The biological science is behind this now, not just cultural issues.

[AngryAmish]

144. However many, many people try to assimulate themselves into another culture.

It is kinda the US identity...everyone tries to assimulate into US cultures f4om other cultures. My parents, for example. Because of my father's assimilated so hard he became a Cubs fan, an affliction he passed to me.

My dad called himself American. The second he opened h8s mouth you knew he was not born here. But American he became.

She essentially assimilated into African American culture.

[Codeine]

179. I can move to Nairobi. I can learn Bantu culture.

I can master Swahili. I can dress like a native, eat local foods, cook with local ingredients with traditional spices, read best-selling African novels and totally assimilate into the culture of Kenya.

Ain't one bit of that will justify me sewing box braids to my head, hitting the spay-tan booth, and calling myself black. I could almost certainly call myself a Kenyan without anybody saying otherwise, but black? Nuh-uh. I don't get to steal that most basic identity.

[AngryAmish]

180. Steal?

Some Indian dude comes to the US, becomes a success, buys a big house and a country club membership, marries a local, wears Ralph Lauren clothes....is stealing Amercan culture.

Got it.

[Codeine]

185. You misread.

I can't steal their racial identity. I can become part of their culture, but I don't get to call myself black. The Indian dude certainly becomes American -- he doesn't become white.

[AngryAmish]

197. Race, ethnicity and gender are all social constructs

You are who you are, biological machinery be damned.

[lovemydog]

308. If you care to learn more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

[treestar]

365. Americans are not always white

But then not all Kenyans are black. Though it is more complex in that white Africans are leftover from colonialism. Whereas in the US it is more a case of immigration by individuals.

[Aerows]

317. Nailed it

You can subsume the culture, but it doesn't change basic identity.

[uppityperson]

11. Uh, nope. Big fail

[polly7]

13. Caitlyn Jenner IS a woman.

There's no 'can be', it's what she is. She is already a complete woman, no matter what body parts she may or may not have.

[uhnope]

20. Can't we say the same for Dolezal, "no matter what body parts she may or may not have"?

[gollygee]

27. .

[polly7]

28. No. nt.

[whathehell]

46. I honestly do not see much of a difference

If one is truly what one "feels" themselves to be, why should it stop at gender?

[uhnope]

61. yes, funny how that POV is met with...

but that's the Internet I guess

[LanternWaste]

94. Your oppression and self-styled martyrdom will be given all the credibility they indeed, warrant...

Your oppression and self-styled martyrdom will be given all the credibility they indeed, warrant... I'm guessing that's the internet too.

[lovemydog]

312. Because it's not about your point of view.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

[freshwest]

373. Uhnope, Uh, remember me? Who supported your many posts before? Then you get a time out and come back

Last edited Wed Jun 17, 2015, 07:55 PM - Edit history (1)

and do this? What's up?

You're free to post any opinion piece you choose and don't need my or anyone else's okay. But you are offending a lot of people with real life problems dealing with being POC and differently percieved that Putin is currently oppressing.

You edited or deleted before when I told you before it was not a good idea. I think you should delete this as it serves no useful purpose.

Rachel played both sides of this for her own profit and could pass as either race with tanning lotion and a hair perm. Her actions are that of a grifter, not a person who is confused.

Jenner may have been confused, but only by being denied what her mind is telling her. People adapt to survive when they don't fit what others think they should be. The birth certificate said male. Her mind and heart said female.

A black person can't change their color no more than a white person can become black by wishful thinking. The struggles Jenner has gone through were life-long, but you deal with what life gave you. This Wiki entry, which is edited, shows Jenner is considering losing that penis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlyn_Jenner

I have a FTM BNL. The surgery is terrible. The doctors told him, after years of counseling, that in the last trimester of pregnancy his mother made too much testosterone and that effected his identity, but it was much too late to affect his body.

Whether people accept it or not, if you know someone well, you know it's not a fad or choice. We all knew something was up. He was not only into women, but he was hyper masculine in all of his interests. He wasn't doing that to please anyone, it caused him a lot of conflict and anger as people treated him like a freak. He knew he was not a woman, but there he was, stuck.

He gained no advantage from this situation, in fact the whole thing cost a fortune to go through it. Some people cannot afford it and end up in limbo.

He, like Jenner, took some time to figure out what was going on, and thought he was a lesbian but came to accept that wasn't what he was. He didn't want anyone to make love to him as a woman. There was not one feminine thing about him his entire life. But it is easier for a woman to wear men's clothes than the other way around.

What Rachel did was a choice, and she changed her choice of race when it advantaged her. It was choice proven by her actions, suing Howard University as a white person for discriminationg against whites. She rode on the backlash against affirmative action and played the reverse racism card.

There is a world of difference in these two individuals.

IMO, it's NOOB what is going in these people's lives until they start to affect others. Jenner got divorced when it was apparent that sex as it had been was no longer desireable (and now says he regards himself as an asexual person) and most likely was not enjoying sex for some time.

Gay men married and fathered children to escape the stigma of being gay have not been unknown. But Jenner is not gay. My BNL decided he was not a lesbian. It was not who he really was or felt like. And he had no problem finding women who wanted him before or after the transformation.

Bottom line is that Rachel, when she was identifying as black, it advantaged her.

It did /does not advantage Jenner. I consider the juxaposition of the two situations similar to RW talking points, illogical and dishonest. Don't fall for this.

There have been black people who have lightened their skin. Contrary what I read here at DU about Michael Jackson, the reason he had his skin lighened was not from a desire to 'be white,' but because of a skin condition where patches of skin lost their ability to use melanin and so he was black with white patches on his face.

His skin could not longer utilize melanin to match the rest. I've seen this with black people who have had burns. It's noticeable as in stare worthy noticeable.

He wasn't trying to 'be white,' he was suffering from a disease. Jenner was suffering a disorder where he felt he was in the wrong body. The changes didn't make them more popular or give them anything they could not have had otherwise.

When a woman loses estrogen as her dominant hormone level and her natural supply of testosterone increases in proportion, she may grow hair where it never was, and suffer from male-pattern baldness. Another cause for this effect are diseases or disorders around the ovary or uterus. She is not a happy camper because her body isn't working the way society or she herself wants it to act.

Neither was Jenner nor Jackson's doing what was easier for them.

But Rachel was playing both sides of the fence and making black people look foolish with her rantings, then began lying about her family. She did what helped her whenever it helped her, playing white or black.

She found an easy mark in the black community, as they have accepted people of all hues and races, because they are the default race according to some whites. Not being 'white enough,' is a real term for some white folks.

It's all a very personal matter. I'm disappointed in you and you know how I have defended you on DU.

[JustAnotherGen]

378. Well said

[MohRokTah]

49. No. eom

[pipoman]

138. She can be who she wishes...

The same science that says the woman isn't black says Jenner isn't a woman.

[polly7]

148. Which makes no sense at all.

Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:25 PM - Edit history (1)

What about very, very young children who know they are girls and not boys as their physical traits indicate, or vice versa? Ask a parent of these children if they're 'choosing' it.

What happens when your son tells you he’s really a girl

http://www.macleans.ca/society/health/what-happens-when-your-son-tells-you-hes-really-a-girl/

[pipoman]

208. I'm not arguing the psychology of transgender

Nor stating anyone is choosing...physiologically..scientifically... Jenner will be a male until she dies...XY=male

[polly7]

214. I'm just going to steal this and put it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026847141#post42

markpkessinger (6,177 posts)
42. Not so . . .

Biological sex is physical, but 'gender' encompasses not only biological sex, but also hormonal composition and intrinsic, psychological gender identity. For most people (although not all), their biological sex is fairly discrete. When it comes to hormonal composition, we all have both 'male' and 'female' hormones, and the precise mixture of the twp varies from person to person. AS for psychological gender identity, again, for most of us, it is consistent with our biological sex. But for some, there is a conflict between their gender identity and their biological sex.

There is, however, no such thing as intrinsic racial identity. The very concept of 'race' is entirely socially constructed by our surrounding culture, and to the extent one even has a racial identity, it is one that is externally imposed on a person by his or her culture. We are identified as belonging to one race or another primarily by how we are physically perceived by the surrounding culture. Ms. Dolezal's real offense lay in the fact that she appropriated the outward trappings of a culturally constructed identity which was not authentically her own. What a transgendered person does in adopting the outward appearance of the gender he or she identifies with is to express his or her intrinsic, authentic gender identity. Ms. Doleaal had the option to revert to her white identity at any time, if she had chosen to, simply by shedding the outward appearance of being African American. A transgendered person, however, does not shed his or her intrinsic identity when he or she or she sheds the appearance of the opposite sex.

[Android3.14]

357. And markpkessinger is an expert in...?

A quick search shows that gender and gender identity are the terms we need to define. When I use the term gender, I mean XX and XY chromosomes. With gender identity, I mean the way a person presents himself, herself or theirself to society.

Race, like gender identity, is more fluid than gender/biological sex.

[polly7]

374. I don't know what she/he is an expert in.

I thought it was a great post, so brought it over from another thread to reply to someone with.

How someone presents themselves to society has nothing to do with how they personally and psychologically identify. There's a great post in this thread that shows how many transgender people commit suicide, lose jobs, are discriminated against in every way, bullied, murdered - of course it makes sense for those without support to identify who they know they are inside 'differently' to society.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847692

I don't use XX and XY to determine gender, simply because, as another poster in this thread said "it involves a lot more than chromosomes, of which there are a lot more biological options than XY or XX, and an infinite variety of ways those chromosomes are physically expressed."

This is an interesting read I saw yesterday:

The Transgender Brain

Or “It’s all in your head – no, really!”

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/


And, some quick links I found on studies being done:

Transsexual differences caught on brain scan:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VYF_xflVhBd

BU researchers find biological basis for transgender identity:

http://dailyfreepress.com/2015/02/18/bu-researchers-find-biological-basis-for-transgender-identity/


It's been shown over and over that even very young children know they are not who their body says they are externally.

What happens when your son tells you he’s really a girl

http://www.macleans.ca/society/health/what-happens-when-your-son-tells-you-hes-really-a-girl/


I'm just trying to learn more about all of this but it's obvious to me, trans men and women are not putting themselves out there for ridicule, scorn, discrimination and hate because they're experimenting, trying to take advantage of being seen as another gender, tired of their own bodies ........ or whatever other garbage people accuse them of doing. It's very real, with life or death consequences. I'm not sure why anyone would want to minimize it with some of the stupidity and bigotry seen even here on this forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6850280

[Android3.14]

411. As I said, it is the definition of our terms

You are using the term gender in the way others use gender identity. The presence of an XX or XY chromosome determines gender. Other factors, some also genetic, determine gender identity.

You stated, "How someone presents themselves to society has nothing to do with how they personally and psychologically identify."

I would bet money that Caitlyn Jenner would disagree.

[polly7]

414. I know what you said.

I posted what I believe, and some links that have helped me understand.

Here's another great post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6852244

Why would Caitlyn Jenner disagree with that comment of mine that you quoted? She spent decades presenting herself to society as something she wasn't, and it was probably torturous for her. Do you believe that all those transgender people struggling in a world filled with bigotry towards them are actually all able to present themselves to their families, workplace, society in general, in the way they wish to? I wish they could ........ the statistics posted here in this thread don't bear that out, though.

[Android3.14]

427. Allow me to clarify

If Caitlyn did not identify as a woman, she would never have presented herself to society as one. Therefore, how she presents herself to society had everything to do with how they personally and psychologically identify.

Posting links has little to do with defining terms. Until we can agree on what gender, gender identity, race and whether race even exists genetically, the discomfort you feel about someone who appears white while claiming to be black is simple prejudice just as some people may feel discomfort when a person with an XY chromosome presents herself as a woman are prejudiced.

[DeadLetterOffice]

207. There is no science that will tell you if someone is 'black.'

Race is not biologically detectable - there is no test for it.

[1939]

352. Title IX

Federal inspector: "Coach, you spent all of your athletic scholarships on the football team. You are supposed to reserve X per cent of your scholarships for women's athletics."

Football coach: "I am in compliance. My whole offensive line identifies as female."

[polly7]

379. This isn't funny at all.

What if it were your child struggling with it, would you support him/her living a life true to themselves, or deny it and perhaps watch them slide deeper and deeper into hopelessness and possible suicide? Please read this before you make any more jokes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847692

[NuclearDem]

381. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh wait that's not funny

[1939]

451. Not meant to be funny

Just a slippery slope of everyone being able to "declare" what they are.

It could be sexual or racial.

[NuclearDem]

453. Yeah, no.

[KamaAina]

14. Nice post, Anne Lamott!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026824390

[cali]

15. I suggest you read this piece by a black woman. It tells you precisely why

Rachel A. Dolezal, who stepped down Monday as president of the Spokane, Wash., chapter of the N.A.A.C.P., could have been a powerful ally to African-Americans. The participation of white allies has always been important to anti-racism work. By most accounts, she is educated about black cultures and an advocate for black causes. But empathy evolved into impersonation. And Ms. Dolezal’s subterfuge, made easier by the legacy of racism in America, undermines the very people she claims to support.j

<snip>

Some people have pointed to this strange case as an illustration that race is malleable. I submit that Ms. Dolezal is a reminder that it is not. Racial identity cannot be fluid as long as the definition of whiteness is fixed. And historically, the path to whiteness has been extremely narrow.

The “one-drop rule,” which, for much of American history, legally defined as black anyone with a black ancestor, was used to keep black people from adopting whiteness. Ironically, it has made it easier for Ms. Dolezal to claim blackness without others questioning the assertion. If they are not themselves of a similar hue to Ms. Dolezal, many black people watching her story unfold can recognize in her features a cousin, parent or grandparent. African-Americans vary in appearance from light-skinned to coal black, straight- to curly-haired, keen- to broad-featured, and every possible combination in between.

<snip>

In the days since this story broke, many people have been quick to point out that race is merely a social construct — as if that fact changes the very real impact of race on the lives of minorities. The persistence of systemic racism means there are penalties for blackness in America.

<snip>

Being able to shift one’s race is a privilege. Ms. Dolezal’s masquerade illustrates that however much she may empathize with African-Americans, she is not one, because black people in America cannot shed their race. We cannot proclaim the black race a nebulous concept, while strictly policing whiteness and the privileges of that identity. I will accept Ms. Dolezal as black like me only when society can accept me as white like her.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

[KamaAina]

16. This is why.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026846454

[Puzzledtraveller]

18. Everyone has a gender

so it is not unique to a group of people, so if a person changes their gender identity, physically or otherwise they are not usurping an entire racial identity from that group that is not theirs. That's just my own opinion, or how I see it.

[PeaceNikki]

21. Shame on the jurors who let this stand.

[etherealtruth]

31. Without doubt

[Eleanors38]

36. Blunderous questions sometimes need answering. This one was.

[NightWatcher]

50. This IS a discussion board, we should be able to discuss

Not just quickly sweep away something that is very new to a lot of people. I don't see this as a phobia or hateful thing, maybe it was an honest question. I don't know what's in the OP's heart.

[gollygee]

58. To say of a transgender person "while still sporting a penis" is transphobic.

It can be discussed without being worded like that. People are not defined by their body parts, and that's really insensitive to transgender people. There are tons of reasons why someone might not choose to or be able to have that surgery, and it's just nobody's business.

[Eleanors38]

155. The OP may have That dreaded Agenda©. But if it's a slow-moving target, hit it.

[Aerows]

120. It makes me wonder

if I'm on the wrong damn forum.

[PeaceNikki]

121. No, the 5 who voted to leave and the OP are, though.

[Aerows]

139. No doubt! n/t

[LostOne4Ever]

158. NAILED IT! (nt)

[lovemydog]

309. You aren't.

I hear you loud and clear.

[philosslayer]

162. Why?

This is a discussion forum. And the post has obviously generated considerable discussion. Is DU so delicate that controversial issues can't be discussed?

[PeaceNikki]

173. It's a transphobic and racist right wing rude and insensitive dig.

That's why.

[philosslayer]

175. A jury disagrees with you

[PeaceNikki]

177. Gee, I even noticed!!

Follow along... http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847213

[Logical]

164. In other words, "Shame on the jurors who disagree with me on this topic" nt

[uppityperson]

178. I would be interested in reading the reasons duers voted to leave. Were they unclear on the

awfulness of "sporting a penis" bit? Was the alerter not clear enough in explaining? Or do they think "sporting a penis" is a fine description of what makes something a man?

I would like to hear why they voted that way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847710

[Skittles]

263. absolutely correct

BIGOTS!!!

[Warren Stupidity]

385. thank you. indeed. what an ignorant transphobic op.

[Blue_Tires]

23. Because I don't want that batshit insane woman claiming to speak for me and my culture.

Clear enough?

[uhnope]

41. now she's "batshit insane"? Calling down Johnny Otis!

Expecting any African American to be speaking for all of the black community is an essentially racist notion. So why put that on Dolezal? She never said that.

[Blue_Tires]

73. Look into her past...She's a conwoman of the highest degree

and she's had like 10 different versions of her backstory, which are probably all wrong...Why would anybody trust a woman who has spent more years of her life deceiving everyone instead of being true to herself?

If she really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wants to help out the Af'Ram Community, there's no reason why she can't do it as a white woman...Believe it or not, there are some white folks out there who have dedicated their lives to helping Black Americans, and they were able to do it without rejecting their own ethnicity...

[MosheFeingold]

74. I wonder if she has a mental disorder

It's really a weird situation. Her brothers were black, her husband black, and her kids black. She went to Howard and was, by all accounts, a very good artist drawing African/African American subjects. She earned a degree in African American studies (I think) and was, also by all accounts, very good at her job at the NAACP.

It's just a really weird deal and makes me wonder if she is "trans-racial" or is she guilty of "Stolen Privilege" -- that is, seeking the legal/financial benefits of being black, while having a white upbringing.

[Chemisse]

211. And yet is that really different?

I don't really appreciate Caitlyn Jenner defining being a woman as giggling with girlfriends, showing off boobs, and painting her nails, all while never having had to face the decades of cultural consequences of being a woman.

I'm not really worked up about it, but I do see a parallel to the Dolezal situation.

[Blue_Tires]

394. If Caitlyn Jenner for the sake of argument

1. Completely hid her past life as a male and reinvented a new backstory where she's been female her entire life, and 2. Rose up through the ranks to be president of the regional NOW chapter, *then* you might be on to something...

[Chemisse]

445. Good point. n/t

[gaspee]

391. I agree she is insane

I have a sister who is a pathological liar - and not what people like to call a pathological liar - one that has actually been diagnosed by more than one professional.

My mother and I watched this story together and we both looked at each other and said at the same time - WENDY! -- that's my sister, obviously.

[Aerows]

24. Hateful

And just wrong on so many levels. Really?

[Lizzie Poppet]

29. The difference between being forced to live a lie and deliberately choosing to do so...

...seems pretty fucking obvious to me.

[Aerows]

37. I can't post what I would like to say to the OP

because I *know* it would get hidden. You nailed it, though, in a far nicer and succinct way than I would have.

[LanternWaste]

96. If it gets hidden, I'll copy, paste and repost.

If it gets hidden, I'll copy, paste and repost. Hopefully, another poster would do the same after I get hidden. And so on.

[Aerows]

102. I'm not going to go there.

I just can't believe a jury let that OP fucking stand.

And 7-0. Something is not right in DU-land today, or maybe I'm just on the wrong forum.

ETA: I completely agree with LizziePoppet, and wholeheartedly FUCKING DISAGREE with the OP (Original, top thread post, that's what it used to mean), their premise, and the insinuations - if I somehow lead anybody to believe that I thought it was okay, please allow me to vehemently disabuse all of that notion.

[LanternWaste]

128. You were clear in the direction of your frustration, and I completely agree with your sentiments.

You were crystal clear in the direction of your well-deserved frustration, and I completely agree with your sentiments.

I'll let ignorance (lack of relevant knowledge) off the hook. Stupid though, well... stupid is just enough knowledge to push buttons. And I'm certain OP is pushing buttons for jollies.

[Aerows]

132. I hoped so

but I confused someone upthread, so I didn't want to make the same mistake twice and give the impression that I hitched my boat to the Titanic of fail that was the OP.

[Jamastiene]

345. That is the key to the whole thing.

There are some people who are playing along like oh, it's a legitimate question, blah blah blah, but no. Those of us who know it when we see it know they doing it to push buttons, just like Juror #1 above. Both the OP and Juror #1 are as transparent as polished cast acrylic. They can try to play ignorant, but the fact that they worded their comments they way they did shows they are pushing people's buttons. They know what they are doing. We do too.

[uppityperson]

40. Thank you. That is a good comparisin

[Eleanors38]

48. Efficiently & symmetrically put, as always. nt ^^^

[uppityperson]

38. Previous alert lets this stand 2-5. Here are full jury results. WTF

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

just sayin'

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 01:46 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hurtful, rude and insensitive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: fair question, I guess.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: hiding this POS just sayin' . To begin with penis or no Caitlyn is a woman, Rachel is white. Bit of a difference in those two things.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Perhaps a penetrating remark, but I'm lost in the forest of illogic.

[bunnies]

43. And Id like to know who the fuck thought this hateful bullshit was acceptable.

Wonder if they'll be big enough to join the OP in the ignorant bigots club.

[tabasco]

122. Why was the OP hateful?

Please explain.

[bunnies]

153. Its been explained numerous times in this thread.

No further explanation is needed. Seriously.

[tabasco]

169. I only see a bunch of flaming, no explanations.

Perhaps you can direct me to a post # with a good explanation of why the OP was "hateful."

Race and gender. Typically considered immutable physical characteristics. But transgender and trans-racial both involve the human brain moreso than body parts or skin color. I believe the comparison is fair and a question about the differences between the two conditions is not necessarily hateful.

Of course, I have no information on the OP's intent, but IMO, the post on its face does not appear to be hateful.

[uppityperson]

181. Here are a few to start with.

10
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847111

15
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847146

18
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847168


58
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847366

174
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847924


The difference between being forced to live a lie and choosing to do so is huge

[DeadLetterOffice]

209. Race is not an "immutable physical characteristic."

Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 09:11 PM - Edit history (1)

It has no basis in biology whatsoever, there is no test for it, you cannot tell race from DNA or genetics.

Sex is also not the physical binary we treat it as -- there are a lot more biological options than XY or XX, and an infinite variety of ways those chromosomes are physically expressed.

This argument cannot legitimately be made into "it's all about biology."

[polly7]

232. +1000. nt.

[JustAnotherGen]

361. How you LOOK determines your race in America

Rachel Dolezal did not grow up with a black parent. Her grandparents weren't. Her great grandparents weren't.

She was a blonde haired light eyed little girl in American in the 1970's and 1980's with TWO white parents and with that. . .

She can't speak to the experiences of growing up black in the Reagan Era in the United States of Amerikkka. That man -he hated us. Just hated us.

Talk all you want as a white person about us Rach - do what you want.

But that doesn't mean any black or black with a white BIOLOGICAL parent American has to take her seriously.

We don't have to because we know better than her. *nose stuck up in the air* <-- Not at you - at her. She ought to be ashamed of herself for insulting all of the women who gave birth or adopted children that looked nothing like them and raised them to be happy whole adults without pretending to be black, Asian, Asian Indian, Central American, etc. etc.

If anything - she's making the argument to me that perhaps when two white people pro-create - well - their children are going to have problems. I mean - it's okay but they shouldn't have children because its too hard on the children

^That's something I heard growing up quite a bit in the 1970's and 1980's in Amerikka. It's funny - one girl J.M. - her parents taught her that - she's a total loser now and I'm not.^ She has no excuses as she started out in the same town as me, with the same education - she just chose to not be exceptional. Maybe it was her upbringing?

You can check out the AA Group - yesterday she pretty much said a non black person can't really be the mother to a black child - it wouldn't work. Bull shit. I call bullshit. And she's already fucked her brothers up for life with that bullshit. She's going to turn them into bigots against white people. You just wait.

[DeadLetterOffice]

388. +1000

[Hestia]

387. How can gender be fluid? It's not that way in the rest of the natural world - biology, botany,

zoology, physiological, etc. We are told that we are to rationally, scientifically look at the world and when people do, they are screamed at for being hateful and bigoted.

We live in a Duality on many many levels and for 90% +/- of those who identify with their gonads*, male = sperm, female = ovaries/egg, and the reproduction implications that result from that. That is the way it is for flowers, trees, lions, and so on and so forth. We can't both be expected to look at the larger world in some aspects and then narrow it in others, which is some ways is completely rejecting the Nature we live in. See the confusion?

The implications are, if the broader world accepts and redefines gender, narrowing it into fluidity, then we cannot do on other levels. Everything is then open to interpretation. Micro, macro.

Who is it that gets to choose these things anyway?


*gonad - noun, Anatomy
a sex gland in which gametes are produced; an ovary or testis.

[DeadLetterOffice]

401. If you are truly interested in understanding the idea...

... may I suggest you read the following piece called Understanding Gender
https://www.genderspectrum.org/quick-links/understanding-gender/

Biological Gender (sex) includes physical attributes such as external genitalia, sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, and internal reproductive structures. At birth, it is used to assign sex, that is, to identify individuals as male or female. Gender on the other hand is far more complicated. It is the complex interrelationship between an individual’s sex (gender biology), one’s internal sense of self as male, female, both or neither (gender identity) as well as one’s outward presentations and behaviors (gender expression) related to that perception, including their gender role. Together, the intersection of these three dimensions produces one’s authentic sense of gender, both in how people experience their own gender as well as how others perceive it.

Western culture has come to view gender as a binary concept, with two rigidly fixed options: male or female, both grounded in a person’s physical anatomy. When a child is born, a quick glance between the legs determines the gender label that the child will carry for life. But even if gender is to be restricted to basic biology, a binary concept still fails to capture the rich variation that exists. Rather than just two distinct boxes, biological gender occurs across a continuum of possibilities. This spectrum of anatomical variations by itself should be enough to disregard the simplistic notions of a binary gender system.

But beyond anatomy, there are multiple domains defining gender. In turn, these domains can be independently characterized across a range of possibilities. Instead of the static, binary model produced through a solely physical understanding of gender, a far richer tapestry of biology, gender expression, and gender identity intersect in a multidimensional array of possibilities. Quite simply, the gender spectrum represents a more nuanced, and ultimately truly authentic model of human gender.

[polly7]

403. Great information! TY. nt.

[Jamastiene]

346. Tell you what.

You can tell us your gender and we'll refuse to address you as that gender from here on out, ALWAYS making a point to refuse to address you as that gender. After a while, trust me, you'll get sick of that shit. THAT is why it is hateful. Transgender people do not deserve that kind of disrespect.

[gollygee]

44. I alerted but I didn't even get that much info back. n/t

[Aerows]

142. I alerted on it too

I didn't get anything back, either. I guess if it is alerted on and juried, there is no further response.

[Jamastiene]

347. That always irritates me when I alert on something

and I get a message just saying a jury let it stand. Ok, so someone else alerted first, but it doesn't give the jury results and comments. Just because someone wasn't the first to alert something shouldn't mean we are not allowed to see what the results were for the first person to alert.

[Autumn]

57. Check your inbox

That it was left is disturbing.

[Blue_Tires]

77. That's fine...This talking point was circulating on Conservative Twitter 3-4 days ago

and I'm more than happy to slap it down here in one decisive stroke

[Aerows]

86. That this post was allowed to stand

is a disgrace to DU. I'm shocked I can't hear dogs barking as I speak it had so damn many dog whistles.

It plays right into all the RW memes.

[geek tragedy]

45. OFFS nt

[NuclearDem]

53. I really hate this place sometimes.

Thank you for reminding me why.

[hrmjustin]

326. +1

[MohRokTah]

59. I find the dual levels of bigotry in such a suggestion palpable.

Wow, insulting to both African Americans AND transgendered people all in a very small OP.

Congratulations.

[Aerows]

107. It's incredibly

fucked up that it was allowed to stand. Enough dog whistles that we shouldn't be able to hear for all the barks.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

62. In the old days we'd say

IBTL

[MohRokTah]

69. Check above, a jury actually voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

The bigotry of both the OP and the jury makes me want to

[uppityperson]

79. Here are results on the OP, 2-5. The 1-6 was another post

I was not on the jury, did alert though.


ALERTER'S COMMENTS

just sayin'

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 01:46 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hurtful, rude and insensitive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: fair question, I guess.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: hiding this POS just sayin' . To begin with penis or no Caitlyn is a woman, Rachel is white. Bit of a difference in those two things.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Perhaps a penetrating remark, but I'm lost in the forest of illogic.

[Autumn]

80. No, that was a post in the thread. The OP was a 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

[MohRokTah]

82. Okay, five bigots on a jury instead of six.

Still, too many bigots on one jury.

[zappaman]

110. Jury results

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:22 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Okay, five bigots on a jury instead of six.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847444

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster is calling other DU posters bigots because he/she doesn't like their jury votes. This is definitely rude and violates CS.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:25 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is kind of meta. But it does not name anyone as no one knows who the jurors are.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Awwww....did a bigot get there feewings hurted? I bet I could guess who.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[uppityperson]

125. More vote to hide a post calling bigots out than the bigoted post? Juries can be odd

Thank you for leaving this one, guess some take exception act bluntly being called out

[zappaman]

129. Notice the hides had nothing to say?

[uppityperson]

130. That I did

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

92. I'm late to the party

again

[whathehell]

97. Yes, which tells you a lot of people here do not view her question as "bigotry".

and neither do I.

When did we all start getting so afraid, of QUESTIONS??

[handmade34]

190. "When did we all start getting so afraid, of QUESTIONS??"

[whathehell]

217. The OP is in the form of a question, is it not?

[handmade34]

223. I was trying

to emphasize your point… obviously, I didn't do it well

this issue has really struck nerves and I believe a robust discussion is needed (w/o the hate would be optimal)

we have multi levels of perception, awareness, opinion and education here and open discussion can be extremely beneficial for some

too often I see topics that deserve discussion turn into hate fests, because of strong opinion, instead of opportunities to inform, teach, make aware, enlighten, etc…

[Humanist_Activist]

250. When did you stop beating your significant other?

I'm only asking questions after all.

Just using this to illustrate that some questions are not honest questions, are leading, and biased.

[blogslut]

66. We get it.

Transgender makes no sense to you so you reach for the straws.

[beam me up scottie]

70. Because she's only black when it's convenient, Dolezal was plenty white when she sued Howard U.

It's not a matter of choice with trans people, I am so sick of seeing this idiotic meme here.

Your op is disgusting and should have been hidden.

[damnedifIknow]

100. I agree

She is harming nobody and just trying to live her life. Much more important things to worry about IMO.

[beam me up scottie]

112. She has harmed both the AA and trans community with her "transracial" bullshit.

She could have embraced AA culture without co opting it.

[damnedifIknow]

123. She as in Jenner

Was going to edit to make that clear but this will do.

[beam me up scottie]

134. Got it!

[winter is coming]

176. +1000. n/t

[City Lights]

76. What a nasty post.

[Liberal Veteran]

85. What does the ACLU have to do with this?

[Lil Missy]

88. What a stupid and mean spirited post

And, it's NOT the white culture freaking out. It's the African American culture who are most upset with this.

[bravenak]

89. Why are white people trying to tell black people to let Rachael Dolezal be black?

Whole lotta white privilege going on... Well, I've decided I'm gonna go ahead and be white now. Imma need your support, emotionally and financially. Takes alot of money to bleach the skin and buy all that straight hair.

I expect you all who support Rachael's blackness to support MY whiteness. I'm quite happy that I mad the decision to be white. A BIG weight off my shoulders. Soo, lets get that fund started up soon, kay? Soon as I get about fifty thou, I'm willing to go on ahead and let Rach have my blackness.

[ecstatic]

101. I don't think this breaks down on racial lines

People see seem to be pro/anti RD 50/50%, regardless of race.

[uhnope]

103. lol you got it backward. The NAACP was fine with Dolezal. White conservatives are mocking her

[uppityperson]

109. And you consider yourself in that group?

[Liberal Veteran]

115. Again. What does the ACLU have to do with this?

[uhnope]

119. google is friend

rachel dolezal aclu, first result: http://fox13now.com/2015/06/12/race-of-rachel-dolezal-head-of-spokane-naacp-comes-under-question/

[Liberal Veteran]

127. Wow. Would you like to buy a clue? ACLU is not the same thing as NAACP.

You keep using the wrong acronym.

[uhnope]

136. thx! my point doubled down

[LanternWaste]

143. Not yours, it would seem.

Not yours, it would seem. Keep digging in though... your intransigence is more entertaining than that of the Duck Dynasty fellas.

[geek tragedy]

114. I'm sure police would be more than happy to oblige black folks they pull over.

"Excuse me officer, my internal presentation is that of a white person."

[Aerows]

149. No shit

Maybe black people could start wearing that on a button or on t-shirts and not get gunned down or assaulted.

[bravenak]

163. Lol!!!

[lovemydog]

314. Holy fuck that was funny.

[lovemydog]

310. lol

You rock bravenak.

There's a whole lot of arrogance going on with white people trying to tell black people to let a white person be black.

[bravenak]

325. It would be funny if it were not so fucked up.

[Comrade Grumpy]

390. Welcome to whiteness. I hope you like mayonnaise.

[bravenak]

442. I'll learn to like it, my new culture demands nothing less!!

[morningfog]

90. You are insulting, transphobic and should self-delete.

Utter bullshit.

[Skittles]

274. too stupid to see their transphobia

love how they try to hide it under the "aren't they alike" bullshit meme

[DeadLetterOffice]

285. Also managed to get booted off zir's own thread.

[Skittles]

455. I am not fooled by these bigots

not at ALL

[misterhighwasted]

105. Trash this post. Uneffingbelievable!

Too dumb of a question for DU.
Umm, Gee why can't an apple be a truck?? Duh.

[ileus]

124. Why can't I be both?

[Spazito]

137. Disgusting OP...

[JI7]

141. the OP kept referring to NAACP as ACLU

[lpbk2713]

145. Interesting observation.

I've had a penis for quite a while ... but I don't ever recall sporting it.

[Jamastiene]

349. You mean you don't ever have the urge

to wear a top hat and tuxedo and just walk into a crowded room and whip it out and start dancing Fred Astaire style with it in your hand just waving it all in the air while you do some fancy footwork and all kinds of fancy tricks with the top hat while you are at it? Because, that's what popped into my head when I saw the OP's wording. It was such a silly way to word it that my brain just fried on the spot and I started picturing a dude in a top hat and tux just dancing...ahem, with himself.

[BeanMusical]

350. Lol!

You're killing me!

[Jamastiene]

366. :P

[BeanMusical]

428. But seriously, you make a great point.

[BeanMusical]

351. Damn, your fucking avatar is dusty.

And your dick is dusty too.

[KamaAina]

147. Uh, nope.

[uppityperson]

150. This man isn't "sporting a penis", is he still male? Is he still a man?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/beyond-the-battlefield-afghanistan-genital-injuries_n_1335356.html

...Weeks later, Mark was on a combat patrol in Sangin, southern Afghanistan, walking behind an engineer sweeping for IEDs, marking their path with yellow spraypaint. IED detectors aren't foolproof. There came a bright flash and searing heat, then the upward blast ripped off both of Mark's legs and most of his left arm, slashing into his remaining arm, shattering his pelvis and driving a rock and other debris up into his abdominal cavity.

Amid the bloody carnage, all the skin was ripped from his penis and his testicles were gone....

[LostOne4Ever]

156. +infinity (nt)

[LostOne4Ever]

152. SHAME on you and every jury member that let your PoS thread stand.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Trans people have been shown to have brains resembling the sex they identify with.

There is no such feature with regards to race.

And calling her a woman "sporting a penis" is just bigoted.[/font]

[Matariki]

204. I think the science is out on 'lady brains'

the idea is kind of offensive.

[Humanist_Activist]

253. Uhm, just an example:

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures

Not sure why it would be offensive to discuss facts, these differences are minute, but still detectable, and shouldn't affect the way we treat either sex, as being equal in ability.

[LostOne4Ever]

256. Thank you

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I was busy upthread and didn't see this till now![/font]

[Number23]

260. I co-sign ever word of your post topic. I don't even know why I clicked on this thread.

I knew I'd be completely disgusted.

[B Calm]

160. Rachel Dolezal Sued Howard University for Anti-White Racial Discrimination!

[AngryAmish]

220. Straight men have sued for being perceived as gay.

If she was perveived as white, that is on Howard, not her.

[Solly Mack]

166. For fuck's sake. Hide this garbage already.

[Codeine]

167. There is no such ting as trans-fucking-racialism.

Kaitlin Jenner has always been, biologically, on some level a woman. The presence or absence of a cock has exactly fuck-all to do with it. There was a biological reality that didn't line up with whatever dangly bits were flopping about downstairs.

There's no biological confusion on this lady's part, no chemicals in her head that make her black inside. She is not "trans black" because there is no such damned thing.

[uhnope]

171. oh really? Then what about "race as a social construct"?

[Codeine]

183. It is a social construct.

That's why you can't be transracial, ferfuxsake. There's nothing inside that biologically makes you know you're black even when you're skin is the color of uncooked biscuit dough.

Kaitlin Jenner knew even while living as as Bruce that she was really a woman, because that was her gender. Her sex (the dong) meant nothing, because her internal biology didn't line up with that.

There's no issue of 'internal race", because there isn't such a thing.

[bravenak]

184. If this woman is black, why did she sue Howard University for discriminating against her for being-

WHITE?
She complained of anti white bias against her, then she complained about anti black bias against her. The woman is full of shit. Period.
People who never bother to defend actual black woman are going out of their damn way to defend this black woman; of course she is actually a white woman so it makes complete sense. Any white person defending this and trying to convince black people to accept this white woman as black is a fucking hypocrit and probably a racist to boot.

No white America. We do not have to let this white lady ge black until we get to be white if we want.

[Codeine]

187. "We do not have to let this white lady be black until we get to be white if we want."

Holy shit. That sums it up in in fucking sentence. Thank you for putting it as succinctly as that.

[bravenak]

195. This is just so bizzarre!

[Codeine]

202. I'm not a total troglodyte!

Just a musical troglodyte!

[jberryhill]

229. One imposed from the outside

Not the inside. Gender identity works the other way.

[Matariki]

198. Can you point to the science that makes a person biologically a gender?

Not a confrontation, but I'm curious about the science you're referring to. That's not something I've heard of. I've always taken gender to be a social construct - and respect a person's right to self identification.

[Humanist_Activist]

254. Gender expression is a social construct, for example, dresses for girls, pants for boys...

that part is fluid in that gender expression is dependent on the larger culture.

Gender Identity appears to be biological. If you woke up tomorrow, still being you, but with the secondary and primary characteristics of the opposite sex, you would suffer a great dysphoria the current sex of your body. Your brain and body would be mismatched.

[Matariki]

264. That's fine and I don't disagree

however I'm interested in a link for any scientific studies around what Codeine said regarding Kaitlin Jenner being "biologically, on some level a woman". How is she biologically a woman? Chromosomes? Hormones? etc.

I'm looking for references to links or books or papers vs. opinions.

Also I've seen conflicting studies on there being brain differences between genders - and frankly my feminist self bristles at the idea as it seems like an excuse for sexism.

[Humanist_Activist]

275. Some links:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VYDI2flVhBc

http://www.academia.edu/7346016/What_s_in_a_Gender_Studies_of_Brain_Structure_Find_Evidence_for_Neurological_Basis_of_Transgender_Identity

http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-mapping-gender-identity-what-makes-boy-girl-247122

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

For the other side, here's a TERFer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html

[seaglass]

369. Thanks for the links, marking so I can read when I have some spare time. I read the PT article and

because it is not sourced, it was not credible to me. Looking forward to reading the rest.

[TexasBushwhacker]

174. I'm white and I'm not freaking out

Dolezal is living a lie by pretending to be black. Jenner was living a lie PRETENDING TO BE A MAN. Dolezal would have liked to continue to pretend to be black. Jenner struggled for decades pretending to be a man. Of course there's the male body that he was stuck with, which is a lot harder to change than getting a spray tan and a wig.

Although Jenner hasn't discussed it, it's entirely possible that, in terms of partners, she still prefers women. She's been married to 3 of them! Gender and sexuality are different things.

Putting myself in Caitlyn's place, I think about what it would be like if I woke up one morning with a penis. WTF! And everyone I knew thought I was a man. As confusing as things were, I might try my best to make a go of it with my male body. I'm attracted to women, so it seems like the logical thing to do. I might even try to be extra manly and make use of my strong male body by being an athlete! But as much as I tried I would know I was living a lie. I still loved my wife. Would she still love me, knowing I was a woman? Would my children accept me?

BTW, I have a trans male cousin.

[AgingAmerican]

186. Doh!

[Sienna86]

188. I support your thesis.

Unless this young woman has a DNA test, who among us can challenge her. Although her parents have "light" colored skin, who knows what her ancestral genetic heritage is? How "African" does she need to be to qualify in the public eye?

[DeadLetterOffice]

213. Not so fast with that DNA test, there...

Molecular anthropologists are often asked if DNA markers can tell what "race" you are. The short answer is "no." Mitochondrial DNA and Y haplogroups can tell from which continent your matrilineal and patrilineal ancestors came.

[lovemydog]

332. It's not a thesis. It's bullshit. Please read this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

[Codeine]

191. "just sayin'" my ass!

Has a white person ever typed or spoken those words while not making us all look like fucking idiots? Right up there with "I'm not racist, but. . ."

The OP should be ashamed for posting this, the jury should be ashamed for letting it stand, and everyone who defended it should give themselves a stern talking-to in the mirror.

[Jester Messiah]

192. Because words no longer have any meaning in the face of feels. [nt]

[Prism]

193. OP rating: Four Face Palms

Gender is an immutable inborn characteristic.

Race is a social construct.

White culture seems largely confused (and weirdly entertained) and a little pissed with her lying.

Fortunately, most white people (but, sadly, not all) seem to be hanging back to see what the African American community has to say about it. Which I think is the appropriate approach.

[smiley]

194. Seems like a double standard to me...

I see nothing wrong with Ms. Dolezal identifying herself as an AA. If she always felt like she was black, then what's wrong with taking the necessary steps to look more like a black woman?

I also think you have a very relevant comparison. However, maybe you should've chosen your words differently. Seems you may have offended a few people here. Good luck with this one!

[99Forever]

203. ...

[MannyGoldstein]

206. Seems to me that

whatever people need to do to be comfortable in their own skin is OK, as long as it doesn't actually harm others.

[Chemisse]

215. Good point.

And maybe that is the difference between the two situations.

[Matariki]

230. I think the argument is whether or not it does cause harm

Does identifying with and passing oneself off as a member of a group that is struggling with inequality and marginalization harm that group, specifically when the person doing it is actually a member of a 'privileged' group?

The consensus seems to be that a white person claiming to be black does harm to black people. There is a certain segment of feminists who express a similar view that people who were raised with male privilege identifying as women are harming feminism by perpetuating gender stereotypes and commandeering the issues. Those type of feminists get called names and get 'no platformed'.

Interesting times. One wonders why people simply asking these question causes such an emotional backlash.

[Aerows]

321. Oh wait, I have an example!

I'm a lesbian.

Do you think I am jolly and happy with the idea of women that aren't lesbians pretending to be lesbians for ignominy and to be "racy"?

Do you think it doesn't offend the fuck out of me when lesbians are portrayed as "just playing around until they find the right man"?

I DO most certainly know how that feels.

[prayin4rain]

331. How do you know that a woman is a non-lesbian trying to be racy instead of a bisexual woman? n/t

[Aerows]

334. How do you know that a woman pretending to be bisexual

or heterosexual isn't a lesbian trying to fit in?

[prayin4rain]

336. What? ?? I don't? That's why I'm curious how you do. n/t

[Aerows]

337. Kind of brings it home to you

when the question is turned right back, doesn't it?

[DeadLetterOffice]

218. I do not understand why this post was allowed to stand.

Nor do I understand why the OP thinks it's OK to put this kind of garbage on DU.

[Codeine]

241. Because bigotry abounds.

We're all guilty of it somewhere, this is the day for transphobic bigotry to shine.

[DeadLetterOffice]

246. I agree we all have potential blind spots and bigotry issues.

I am horribly prejudiced about Evangelical Christians, for instance. But I would hope that if I said something about EC's as a group that was as ugly as what this OP said about trans women, someone would alert & a jury would smack me down. (OK, well, not on DU maybe since I'm probably not the only bigoted-against-ECs-person around here...) I get that bigotry abounds, here and everytwhere, I'm just appalled that so many bigoted people ended up on that jury.

[NuclearDem]

235. Chromosonal sex assignment is not the same as gender identity.

Take your transphobic bullshit elsewhere.

[Codeine]

236. Oh fuck that!

You are one of the most unpleasant, nasty, bigoted people on this whole damned board!

Transphobic fucking bullshit of the highest fucking order.

[PeaceNikki]

238. This ^

[Humanist_Activist]

257. I don't undestand why that troll hasn't been banned yet, she is an open social conservative...

has posted her sexist, transphobic and homophobic views repeatedly, and yet is still here.

[Codeine]

267. With a smattering of antisemitism as well. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

328. Yup!

[DeadLetterOffice]

270. Does make the mind reel, doesn't it?

Gah.

[RandySF]

240. She sued Howard U for discrimination against whites.

She is whatever she needs to be to get ahead at any given time.

[Nevernose]

409. Exactly. It's the lying that pisses people off.

It's her trying to pass herself off as the voice of black people, another white person trying to tell black people how to better themselves.

There's plenty of room for white people in the civil rights movement: John Brown, freedom riders, the founders of the NAACP. But they were honest about who they were and were not lying to advance their personal careers and agendas.

[NobodyHere]

242. This discussion reminds me of this

[DonCoquixote]

258. first off

the whole sex change operation takes a year of various procedures and therapies.if it is done too quick, you could easily kill the patient. The TG I know nearly died because the doctors did the "removal" (it's actually not a removal), and the result was a mess that I cannot describe on a pg 13 forum.

[sub.theory]

277. Two Camps

One camp thinks someone white would have to be insane to want to be black. It's inconceivable. There must be something wrong with them.

The other camp thinks black culture is too special to be shared with white people. They don't belong and need to go away.

Both are, imo, a form of racism.

You are completely correct that race has no genetic basis. It's entirely a social construct. Why so many people are losing their minds over this shows how obsessed our nation is with that concept, though.

[Matariki]

278. I certainly can see a parallel in the reactions it's causing

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?_r=0

"I have fought for many of my 68 years against efforts to put women — our brains, our hearts, our bodies, even our moods — into tidy boxes, to reduce us to hoary stereotypes. Suddenly, I find that many of the people I think of as being on my side — people who proudly call themselves progressive and fervently support the human need for self-determination — are buying into the notion that minor differences in male and female brains lead to major forks in the road and that some sort of gendered destiny is encoded in us.

"That’s the kind of nonsense that was used to repress women for centuries. But the desire to support people like Ms. Jenner and their journey toward their truest selves has strangely and unwittingly brought it back.

"People who haven’t lived their whole lives as women, whether Ms. Jenner or Mr. Summers, shouldn’t get to define us. That’s something men have been doing for much too long. And as much as I recognize and endorse the right of men to throw off the mantle of maleness, they cannot stake their claim to dignity as transgender people by trampling on mine as a woman."

[Matariki]

279. btw

I'm not endorsing Burkett's opinion, nor do I completely disagree with her. But I do think that the conversation about gender should not one sided. Older generations of feminists have worked hard to deconstruct the idea of gender and what it 'means to be a woman' and should not marginalized and made to shut up. Honestly I'm baffled that there's a fight between people whose common goal is to deconstruct gender, but I wish folks would let the conversation happen, because that's how things (and people) change and evolve.

[Humanist_Activist]

281. Since when is the goal to "deconstruct gender" what does that even mean?

You put in a lot of TERF, "womyn born womyn" buzzwords into your post. Not to mention you seem to want to ignore the growing body of evidence that there is a biological basis in the brain for, at the very least, gender identity. Are we supposed to just ignore that?

[LostOne4Ever]

289. Yep.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]We aren't supposed to see the transantagonistic remarks for what they are because a supposed progressive wrote them.



They want to destroy the gender binary and replace it with a single box that is even more restrictive than the binary we had before; and one that just so happens to have no room for transpeople. One that denies transpeople their experiences and realities.

Thankfully intersectional feminist are trying to counter this bull

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/feminist-phrases-marginalize-trans-women/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/rachel-dolezal-not-transracial/[/font]

[polly7]

284. Just because someone hasn't been lucky enough to be able to have lived their

lives as their true self, doesn't mean they are any less qualified to be involved in discussing that gender to which they belong - whether you don't understand it, or not. Many, as Caitlyn Jenner appears to have done, have suffered for decades hiding, and experiencing all the psychological torture that must involve. I can't even imagine it. How is she trying to define women simply by being brave enough to finally show the world who she really is?

[LostOne4Ever]

287. She not

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Ms Jenner is getting criticized for the way she chooses looks and dresses....something some people claim to oppose but apparently not when it comes to transwomen.

That article is a hit piece. But I guess when it is attacking transwomen it is okay to post bigoted propaganda.[/font]

[LittleBlue]

280. I wish we could have a discussion about whether transraciality exists

without trying to denigrate trans people. It is highly unfortunate that transphobes are using this comparison to delegitimize trans people because it makes the issue of transraciality impossible to discuss or explore.

I do think some people could possibly experience psychological trauma that would make them believe that they were transracial. Not sure if Rachel Dolezal is one of them. It is possible, however unlikely it appears.

[Humanist_Activist]

282. Race is largely a cultural construct, what differences exist are superficial. "Transracial" isn't...

thing, don't try to make it a thing, its not going to happen.

People can and have appropriated and/or assimilated the cultures and subcultures around them, there is nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't make them "transracial", that makes them human.

[LittleBlue]

290. It's already happening

The people acting like we shouldn't make it a thing don't see the comments on social media or from black celebrities.

A good portion of this country already believe it's a thing

[Humanist_Activist]

292. I see a lot of people who don't care that their subculture is adopted by someone who...

stereotypically wouldn't necessarily be considered a part of it. However, that is good old fashioned assimilation and/or appropriation.

[beam me up scottie]

297. Someone did start one tonight:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026848470

[elias7]

293. People shouting BIGOT all through this thread need to chill

we are not bigots. We genuinely do not quite understand what I guess most of you seem so certain of. instead of getting all Sean hannity on us, why not take the time to explain your understanding of the issue. Help me understand how genetics and gender differ, how a lifetime of being bathed in estrogen, walking in a female body, being treated like a woman, does not necessarily define your gender as female. This is new to many here. But the quality of most liberals and progressives I know is that they are Open Minded. So stop acting like a$$es and lets have a real discussion, teach, rather than pounding us as bigots and being on the wrong site for not having the knowledge you have.

[Humanist_Activist]

295. Its the framing the questions which is the problem, you don't want honest answers...

you want reinforcement of your own prejudices.

Why the fuck should we be expected to do your research for you?

ON EDIT: Here's something simple you can do, don't post about what you don't know about.

[elias7]

458. Wow, you project a lot

I have no prejudice in this matter, I merely seek to understand without being hammered by someone who has prejudged me. I don't expect you to do research for me, i have done some reading, but am still not an expert like many seem to be here.

You tell me to "Don't post about what you don't know about"? I Know plenty about people asking honest questions and being pissed on for not having received the memo on how a progressive thinker is supposed to think about an issue. I never posted an opinion about transgender or racial identification, but if you need to snark, please continue.

This place ain't the same anymore.

[Humanist_Activist]

459. The OP used offensive language, transphobic language to ask their "question"...

and you want to defend that shit?

What the fuck.

You are right, this place isn't the same anymore, too much tolerance of fucking bigots. Worthless pieces of shit who stink up this board with their fucking filth.

[Change has come]

298. The knowledge you ask for was shared in abundance in this thread.

I think you should apologize for the Sean Hannity remark. Just because YOU don't see the bigotry doesn't mean it isn't bigotry.

[prayin4rain]

299. Yeah, I see that you missed the memo.

The best way to educate people and spread acceptance and tolerance is to:
First, call anyone with an opinion that you consider to be less evolved than yours a bigot, hateful, piece of shit scumbag, too STUPID to precisely adopt your opinion. Really, preferably, all vicious insults should be in all caps.
Second, hurl outrageous accusations of an ulterior motive and let them know that you're onto them and their (insert obscure hate group) agenda.

There are more steps if you truly want to enlighten them as to how much better the world would be if we could at least learn to accept each other and respect our differences, but these will suffice if you simply want to increase the level of tolerance on the planet.

I know it sounds bad at first, but we can't learn to love each other without decimating the character of one another.

[Change has come]

307. Did you not read through the thread?

Also, do you agree the people on this thread are "all Sean hannity" and "a$$es"?

That doesn't sound very loving to me.

[prayin4rain]

316. Yes, I find the wording

in the OP and some of the posts (arguing each side) offensive. That's not an excuse to accuse everybody trying to talk, learn, FORM an opinion on the subject of being a STUPID BIGOT. People don't know how to frame it, or what to think about Rachel's professed identity. Some try to give her the benefit of the doubt, some don't. Fine.

People are using Caitlyn's story as a frame of reference because people are finally truly believing these women. That's great!
Now Rachel comes along and they want to support her, too, without TRULY understanding the plight of either woman, but wanting to make an effort to understand.

I understand that some people on the right are trying to say: see, this is as stupid as the Jenner thing... and that's ridiculous and hateful.

I understand that some on the left are saying: why can't we support people who identify as a different gender and a different race? And I understand that some people take issue with that and think, COME ON, that doesn't even make any sense. But, I don't think viscous attacks are helping them understand why.

Everyone is tolerant and accepting to those they find easy to tolerate and accept. A little snark is one thing, but the all out character assassinations of fellow liberals are way over the top, imo.

[lovemydog]

330. This should help you understand.

Sincerely.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

[elias7]

457. This doesn't help me

The rationale for not accepting Dolezal's identifying as black is purely social...until society would accept me, a black person, identifying as white, I will not accept a white person identifying as black. if a black person identifies as white, and I imagine some do, my accepting or not accepting of that identification does not nullify that identification. It just means I'm a bigot. But if I reject a white person identifying as a black, I can nullify that identification. And if you don't agree with me, you're a bigot.

[Starry Messenger]

296. Penises don't make you male.

Uterui don't make you female.

[Aerows]

303. Apparently

having a brain doesn't make some people use it, either.

[Kurska]

304. ...

[Aerows]

306. I want to mention

that transgendered identity is nothing new. Let me point to Greece, even the Old Testament addresses it.

I'm stating this because I am sure I will likely get locked out of this thread because some in this thread have gone around the bend with the transphobia, and it appalls me to see this shit on DU.

You are not using science or history if you do not see the difference between the two - you are letting bigotry and ignorance be your guide.

[lovemydog]

315. I totally agree Aerows.

And there is no reason whatsoever for you to be locked out of this thread. I appreciate hearing what you have to say. I'm sure many others here do as well.

[Change has come]

319. The OP has been locked out of the thread.

[Warren Stupidity]

386. The op is one hide short of a vacation.

[City Lights]

431. The vacation has been granted. nt

[DeadLetterOffice]

446. Thank you Admins!

[countryjake]

434. Aerows, at least one of them (the OP) is now Flagged for Review.

[lovemydog]

318. Because the comparison is idiotic

and makes everyone dumber.

[stevenleser]

323. I know you can't reply, but you should self delete anyway. This is a horrible and transphobic OP

That is all.

[akbacchus_BC]

324. Thing is, Rachel Dolezal protrayed herself as black and

she is not. There is no comparison. The NAACP did not know she was white, so give that line a rest.

I know she did good work but misrepsenting your race is not credible.

How on earth is Rachel able to portray what she went through as a black american when she lived a life as a privileged white American girl?

If only the supporters of Rachel can understand what slavery is, then tell me that Rachel can identify with that.

[hrmjustin]

327. Unrec!

[merrily]

329. How unfortunate for DU that an OP this insenstive to a member of the trans community survived an

Last edited Wed Jun 17, 2015, 08:47 AM - Edit history (1)

alert.

[JustAnotherGen]

359. Plus 1000 n/t

[merrily]

360. Thanks.

FYI: I thought I had edited that post within minutes after I made it because I was not sure I had used a proper term. Now that your post drew my attention back to it, I saw that the edit had not gone through, so I changed it. I didn't change the meaning, though.

[City Lights]

432. It's really sad.

This place sometimes leaves me scratching my head.

[lovemydog]

333. To all who are asking why can't an apple be a truck

please read this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

[Omnith]

335. Great question

She can be transracial.

[MrScorpio]

339. And what IS "transracial?"

How can a white woman turn herself into a black person?

Can an outwardly looking black person make themselves fully "white" in this country?

[akbacchus_BC]

338. Listen up, White Culture is not freaking out!

Lying to be black is not credible. Do you have any idea what blacks went through during slavery? Guess not, hence your question. Gawd, educate yourself and if you want a paraphrase of what blacks went through during slavery, get a copy of Roots and knock yourself it. You can even get a copy of being black in America. Jenner is not an issue and there is no comparison.

It boggles my mind that some people on here minimise the audacity of a white person trying to be black!

[Jamastiene]

341. wtf

Transphobic bullshit.

[Skittles]

348. bigots who are excited because they think we cannot see through them

yup

[BeanMusical]

430. +1

Totally agree!

[merrily]

353. If the NAACP was cool with having a white woman identifying as an African American woman

working for them, why is she out of a job today?

It's about how you are born to identify vs how you choose to identify. Being born over six feet tall with a penis over years ago was not a choice Jenner made. Dolezal knows she is white, but consciously chose to identify as "black." And she also consciously chose to be white when she sued over alleged discrimination against white people.

"Sporting" a penis is a lie. Moreover, the penis is irrelevant, except for the anguish it has caused Jenner. My guess is that, in another year or two, the penis will not be there. She has already begun the steps that she must take for surgery.

This OP is beyond disgusting in its insensitivity and its disregard of facts. And for what?

[Snow Leopard]

410. Who said white culture

is freaking out? She is just a massive liar is all, and an interesting news story, forgoing all that white privilege floating around.

[yuiyoshida]

424. My friend used to joke with me..

(He is Vietnamese), that if he ate enough Japanese food, would he become Japanese? I told him I don't think it works that way.

[Spazito]

433. Enjoy your time-out...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=275750&sub=trans

Thanks to the jury for hiding the other hideous OP.

[Zorra]

436. +1 nt

[countryjake]

437. For anyone who may be wondering...the jury results on that other one...

On Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:32 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Jenner, "Stop Hating Your Body", & Mixed Messages of US Society
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026853459

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This OP is an appalling, ugly attack on trans gendered people. This is not the first ugly post, here is another one:

"If Caitlin Jenner can be celebrated for getting his freak on then where do you draw the line?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6850872

From the terms of service:

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic.

Please hide this OP.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:45 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think this poster needs to stop this ridiculous ride he's on. But I don't see a hide.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It's to the point of trolling now. Person needs to be educated.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Transphobes, STOP HATING! I am ashamed of the blatant bigotry that has once again permeated our DU community. The LGBT members here are continually demeaned and insulted, with little recourse. Yesterday's thread by this very same poster is proof of that. Skinner, please do something positive to show that everyone is truly welcome here, no matter what their sexual orientation or gender identity may be.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Spazito]

438. I was shocked to see it just barely got enough votes...

VERY disappointing but thank goodness 4 members understood.

[joeybee12]

439. Me too...

That was disappointing.

[countryjake]

443. I wasn't shocked at all.

I was also called to participate in failed juries within this thread, yesterday.

Hateful bigotry often makes our jury pool a nasty game for transphobes, homophobes, and prejudice of all stripes.

I'm more ashamed than disappointed to see it. It makes our community suffer.

[Spazito]

444. Well said...

"I'm more ashamed than disappointed to see it. It makes our community suffer."

[obliviously]

440. This could truly make people equal, be who you want

Let them be transracial or transsexual, I could care less if people want to change species if they could, what business is it to anyone?

[booley]

441. I don't think Jenner ever claimed she wasn't' born with a penis

Jenner didn't say some person who wasn't' her father was her father.
Jenner didn't' pretend that she didn't' used to identify as male
Jenner didn't' claim to have experiences that she didn't' really have

I think a lot of the Dolezal thing is that she did fool so many for so long. Her lies weren't' seen as outrageous until after the fact. Not to mention I have noticed a lot of minorities are sensitive about white people appropriating stuff for their own benefit.

But I think the worst thing about this is it's quite possible Dolezal did good in her role as president for the NAACP. But that doesn't' even matter now because it's all marred by her lies. There are already too many who will tell you racism is made up and now they can point to Dolezal as if she was representative of anything.

[prayin4rain]

447. I don't think a non-famous transwoman is under any obligation

to disclose her pre-transition life to her employer or anyone else for that matter. We know about Jenner's pre-transition life because she's famous. But, if she weren't, I don't think it would be her duty to disclose her past. Also, I'd be more than happy for a transwoman who did not disclose her past to head a woman's organization.

[LexVegas]

449. How are you still around with all this shit? nt.

[Skittles]

456. he is currently out for some shit

just not this particular shit; the jury finally got it right

[krawhitham]

454. In a 2009 interview she stated "I’m trans-racial"

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/heres-how-black-naacp-leader-rachel-dolezal-was-outted-as-a

In a 2009 Coeur d’Alene Press story, Dolezal briefly spoke about her ethnicity. The article was about how Dolezal felt like the target of racism after finding the noose at her home, and she mentioned spending “a lot of time in Mississippi so when I saw that rope, I knew what it was.”

“I’m trans-racial, my son’s trans-racial, my roommate is African American,” Dolezal told the Press

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/heres-how-black-naacp-leader-rachel-dolezal-was-outted-as-a