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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI didn't serve in Vietnam for freedom...
by Z. Woof
I didn't serve in Vietnam for freedom...
or liberty, or the flag.
I didn't serve for the reasons people think of when they tell me, "Thanks for your service."
I knew that this war was not about any of that stuff.
I served for 365 days and a wake up, as we called it.
I served so I would not be imprisoned by my government.
I served because my father asked me to. Later, he admitted he was wrong and apologized.
I served with these guys.
I served to save them and myself for 365 days and a wake up.
I failed.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/25/1387471/-I-didn-t-serve-in-Vietnam-for-freedomI failed.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Capt. GGJohn
U.S. Army Ret.
A Co. 101st AVN BN
RVN 1967-1969
Hueys and Snakes.
erlewyne
(1,115 posts)I was drafted. Infantry. By a quirk I ended up in Germany.
I got a letter from home about my high school class president.
Herman Gant. Only negro in my class. Conscientious objector.
Medic, red cross. Mom wrote that Herman was going to Viet Nam.
Her P.S. was Herman was killed. He lasted 1 day. (Our letters
would last a month between hello's and good bye's.
The Viet Nam war was a lie ... just like Iraq.
I hate war and violence!
Go Bernie
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)stop the spread of communism, yeah, I bought that fucking lie.
I lost many a friend in that useless war.
Your story brought tears to my eyes.
RIP Herman Gant.
erlewyne
(1,115 posts)Yes, John, you were there.
I bought that fucking lie also.
Feels like we served together .... We did!
I was in Germany all of 1968. That's damned near 50 years ago.
We are a backwards nation.
Thank you, this Memorial Day was for Herman.
He would have liked to share it. The list is
so long.
Thanks GGJohn
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)Spent 2 tours in Vietnam in the Marine Corp.
They took his soul, then his legs (agent orange) and finally his heart.
They didn't even want to spring for his burial. My other brother who was a Sargent in the Marine Corp had to plead for that simple honor.
Fuck the fake asshole warmongers who never care to sacrifice there own.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)didn't have any skin in the game?
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)only wallets to fill.
I am literally sitting here weeping.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)friends lost in combat, friends lost to ailments, friends lost to demons haunting them and friends I've lost contact with.
It deeply saddens me that we that I have lost so many comrades and we have this holiday because of wars.
Sorry, don't mean to be a downer.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)May our weary souls find some kind of peace.
man4allcats
(4,026 posts)Thank you for your story about that terrible war.
H2O Man
(73,308 posts)A lot of my friends served in Vietnam. The OP is similar to what they have said over the years since.
In the past year, I've been to too many of these guys' funerals. At one, a friend said, "Huh, odd. Seems like half of 'the Old Gang" isn't here." It took me a second to catch on to what he was saying.
I don't think our nation has ever come to terms with that war.
sarge43
(28,939 posts)we can't talk honestly or objectively about a war, especially that one
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)IMHO we cannot talk about war objectively, period. Especially not now, when less than 1 percent actually fight them and less than 5 percent actually have any contact with the troops.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)Until those that make war have to sacrifice there own, that is not going to happen.
My grandson is a Petty Officer in the Navy. I am begging him to not take the fifth year option.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)(I saw action somewhere else)... it is easy to talk how brave you are when no skin in the game.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Supporting the war while living it up in France.
What a fucking hypocrite.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and in his case connections helped. He should have been court martialed for desertion.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Asshole was out partying while we were doing all we could to survive, at least daddy Bush had the balls to serve in combat in WWII.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)the conservatives serving in WW II. The first is from John Wayne, it was set in a fantasy (We think it was the marianas, but they could not tell), attack. The son of a well connected GOP Senator and his speaking parts are clear on the opinion of the conservatives and how this was Roosevelt's war. He was serving becuase Dad told him he had to if he wanted a career in politics.
Kid dies in the end... but
The second is Iwo Jima. The scene on the train with the two GOP young men who somehow got an exception was a way to represent the overall attitude. It was also a dig to those who applauded the war but never joined, I mean the Gulf War II. Director can be an asshole, and his monologue with a chair was very bizarre, but that scene is worth watching.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but in this instances, you are 100% correct.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)TNNurse
(6,911 posts)He lives in Canada. Well he is a Canadian citizen....for many years now. He made a good life there.
dpatbrown
(368 posts)Every year on this day, I read or hear many saying how these soldiers served to preserve my freedom. To me, it's a day of shame. Shame because our government sends these young people to far off places to die for oil or real estate. To me, it's sad to see how brainwashed the American people, who continue year after year, to believe these lies. Day of Shame.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)comrades I served with and and lost.
You may think it's a day of shame, but most vets will probably disagree with you, at least the vets I know and keep in touch with.
BTW, welcome to DU.
H2O Man
(73,308 posts)I agree with you, " most vets would disagree". For me, that's the travesty of it. Don't get me wrong, I have tons of respect for the vets, but NONE for the politicians who lie to them and this country.
"Welcome to DU", thank you.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I have zero respect for those pols.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)slaves. That seems like a day worthy of veneration. What it has become in the years since, though, is something far more tawdry and cheap.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)then I couldn't agree more, however, for most vets and their families, it's a day of remembrance for those comrades we lost.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)we are in full accord:
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)And yes, we are in full accord here.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I have to agree with you. I have lost one or more family members in every war this nation has participated in up until Iraq.
I am trying to convince my grandson to leave the Navy before that happens.
I would like to make a special mention of my uncle Freddy A Kvale. who died in a prisoner of war camp after being taken at "The Gauntlet" in North Korea. He was a member of the Minnesota Army Reserve. His remains have yet to be recovered.
Memorial day is not a good time for me.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)It must be hard on this sad day.
I can never understand why people say Happy Memorial Day, this is not a day of happiness, it's a sad day of remembrance.
When our oldest son wanted to follow his dad's footsteps, (me), and join the Army, I immediately took him to the VA hospital in Phoenix, AZ, and had him talk to the injured vets there, they quickly changed his mind, we were determined that the tradition of military service in our family was going to end with me.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)Unfortunately my grandson wanted an education and thought the Navy would afford that.
I am of the opinion that they will screw him on that.
dpatbrown
(368 posts)I was born in 1948, and fought four times against being drafted, to stay out of Vietnam. And for the American government to say that the communist were coming to San Diego if we didn't fight, was a perception many of my generation did not buy. In my lifetime, this government has NEVER been honest about invading other countries.
Rolando
(88 posts)I was born in 1932 and fought constantly against the draft until I lost, in 1957, when there was no war. At least I didn't lose my life. I was a conscientious objector with no credentials: no religion that had been certified. I survived, unlike many others, but I am bitter about what most of the wars in my lifetime have done to this country. Communism, as it was portrayed, doesn't exist now. It died of its own flaws.
steve2470
(37,456 posts)I welcome your wisdom and experience.
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)-- Mal
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)John1956PA
(2,654 posts)Especially the last one:
In the morning they return
With tears in their eyes
The stench of death drifts up to the skies
A soldier so ill looks at the sky pilot
Remembers the words
"Thou shalt not kill."
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)We forget that dying and being maimed are not the only price paid by those who fight in war, they must also live with the sorrow of killing and maiming others. Most of them would rather not.
-- Mal
mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)He had a low draft number and decided he would do his duty as an American citizen and spent a year in Vietnam.
Our son enlisted in the Navy and spent several months in the Persian Gulf for HW's war.
While they are proud of their service, they both know the truth: War is a racket!
dpatbrown
(368 posts)No shame meant for the vets, only to those who sent them. Reinstate the draft, and many of the hawks (and liars) in D.C. would shrink like violets. Again, zero respect for them.
mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The draft was never in any point of American history, an impediment to making war. In fact the ability to force citizens to soldier actually made war more appealing, 'cause you didn't have to manage the resources. just demand more conscripts!
Advocating a draft is advocating for your children and grandchildren's death - which is why i have never seen a draft advocate who ISN'T too old to be drafted. Which is why I suggest an alternative.
Reinstate the draft, with no deferments allowed. and start with the last number pulled in 1973. You want a draft to make lawmakers shit themselves? Make it a draft that will send them to the front lines first. yeah, it would sweep up the draft advocates too, but they want it, so there's no harm in it I figure.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Physically fit and mentally sound--I guarantee they would take me (though I admit I would refuse, and would see the inside of a jail cell first). I, and other friends of mine, are strong advocates of the draft.
The reason we are able to continue wars elsewhere are because we continue to send our poorest elsewhere and the majority of us are able to forget about them. With a draft, the poorest will still be screwed more than the rich, but this time it forces everyone to remember exactly what we are doing. No more forgotten soldiers and veterans.
Reinstate the draft, make from age 18 to whatever you want, both male and female. No exceptions, period. My suggestion is then to make war democratic. Make the decision to enter war the people's decision--only those who may enter the war through the draft may vote.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)In my opinion it should be those who take the risk that decide whether the war is worth fighting.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)We did take the risk and have earned the right to say yes or no.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Just my thoughts on it. No disrespect intended. I think you're right, though.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Just for the record, I would vote no unless it was a DIRECT threat to our homeland.
There would have to be a very compelling reason, and I don't mean some bullshit that we have to fight them there to avoid fighting them here, to authorize troop deployments to foreign lands.
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)All citizens should do two years of service, such as VISTA or the CCC, for the community and infrastructure, or in the military. Deferments should be hard to get, and not for college, which should be delayed until after said service. This will serve any number of useful purposes: providing useful skills to high school graduates, integrating people from all walks of life, repairing and maintaining the nation's infrastructure, etc... consequently, it will never fly, but I like to fantasize about it from time to time.
-- Mal
valerief
(53,235 posts)calimary
(80,693 posts)Glad you're here. Blessings on this Memorial Day. But I've gotta say whenever I hear that cliche - "they're FIGHTING for our FREEEEEEDOM" it just makes me cringe. Unfortunately, they're not fighting for anybody's "freedom" but for freedom for Corporate America, and, in particular, Big Oil and all the advantages and shortcuts and wheeling-&-dealing and regulatory exemptions it can get away with.
dpatbrown
(368 posts)And that's the thing that is so aggravating to me, so frustrating. But then again Calimary, I think that until voters wake up, the military industrial complex will continue to have full control.
I agree with your comments. Think about how young people are being exposed to war, video games.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)He didn't give his life, it was taken.
Brainstormy
(2,380 posts)and am generally bummed out by how much we exalt war. Washington, D.C., to me, seems to be one big municipal monument to past wars. And ironically, the incubator for who knows how many more in the future. You're right. It IS a day of shame.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)I wrote this some years ago & posted it here back then.
Especially when someone says "Thank you for your service." You see, I was an infantryman in Vietnam, but I did not serve willingly. I was drafted, forced into a deadly form of involuntary servitude, and whatever illusions I might originally have had about the rightness of the war were quickly torn from me when I saw what we were doing to the innocent people, the sacred soils, the beautiful waters and jungles and mountains of that tormented land.
"No, don't thank me," I want to say. "Forgive me. Forgive me for participating in that awful event in your name. If you must thank me for something, then thank me for joining the movement to stop the war when I got home. Maybe thank me for the things I have tried to do for the castoffs of society--the mentally ill, the developmentally disabled, the emotionally damaged products of chaotic and abusive homes who have gone on to fill our jails and prisons. But don't thank me for going off to participate in the destruction of a foreign land whose residents never intended any harm to you or me."
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)malaise
(267,784 posts)nothing but the truth
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)... commiserated with, yeah. Hey, you did what you had to do to survive. The key point here, I think, is that you didn't make the rules. The onus lies on them, not you.
-- Mal
7962
(11,841 posts)Duval
(4,280 posts)mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)with Vietnam Veteran on it. First time he wore it a guy thanked him for his service. My husband honestly didn't know what the guy was talking about. He said, "do I know you?" I pointed to his hat and said "he means that." My husband was embarrassed and now only wears the hat to march in the parade to remember his buddies who didn't make it.
War is a racket. We all know it, but vets especially know it.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)filled with--well, wingnuts. You could hear dark mutterings in one corner about some demonic entity named "Pelosi," while at another table someone was holding his audience breathless as he recounted the latest wisdom from Glenn Beck.
At one table there sat this older guy with a Vietnam Veteran cap and various military-related trinkets and patches all over his shirt. It was like he was visiting royalty or something, there to collect his tributes from the others.
On seeing him and this whole scene, I felt an overwhelming sadness. Had nothing worthwhile happened in this man's life in the last 40 years? Has his whole ego structure solidified itself like a cyst around his veteran status? Why did he still need to feed on the adulation of these decaying, hateful beings?
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)The same scenario: Wingnut restaurant, my hard-right father and hard-right friends...the conversation. One of them is a Vietnam vet and he's the most hawkish person I've heard this side of a Tom Clancy novel.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Or was he one of those REMF's?
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)Nice guy, when he's not talking politics........
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I was a helo pilot also and I'm as anti war now as they come.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)I was a 1st Cav grunt & rode around in Hueys & Shithooks a lot. I saw the number of bullet holes in some of those choppers. I got no clue how any of you survived.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I guess it just wasn't my time.
Know how they determine if you're helo pilot qualified?
They show you this picture and if you relate, you're pilot material.
LOL.
mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)shot down twice, but quickly rescued. Thinks war is stupid. In most of his personal pictures taken of his buddies in Vietnam, the guys are giving the finger to the camera.. I asked him why. He said, before anyone took a picture they always said "smile for the folks at home." The only pictures where they actually did smile was when they were interacting with the locals. My husband was really impressed with the Vietnamese people he met.
He's always said, those people had nothing and we were destroying it. Heartbreaking.. Fuck war!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)1967-1969.
We just missed each other
Tell your hubby, Welcome Home Brother.
mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)and same to you brother
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)to go back and pick up a Vietnamese they'd had to leave behind, against a strict he was not to, (or they were not to; it could have been a blanket prohibition due to the scarcity of them at the time at that location).
He came under a barrage of intense fire, but somehow managed to save the other lad, without being hit. He said it was because they would have been so pumped up that the adrenaline would have affected their aim. If they had tried to shoot near him, they might have hit him!
When he got back to camp and the officer he reported to, bawled him out, he chinned him!
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)From a door gunner, of course. Who did three tours because he loved his work.
-- Mal
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)For some reason I never, ever understood, a lot of short-timer grunts would apply for door gunner positions for their last few months in country. I guess it's just amazing what rice-paddy leech phobia will drive some people to do.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I felt a lot safer as a pilot than a door gunner, those MoFo's were crazy as hell standing in an open door blasting away.
dflprincess
(28,057 posts)Enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor, refused officers'/pilot training because he was all gung ho to get into the war. -- Got a couple Bronze stars and the Air Medal.
Came home a pacifist.
I think a lot of you guys who really saw how awful war is do - even if many don't say it out loud.
Thank you for saying it out loud.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)I'm so sorry. I forgive you and all who fought in wars, unknowingly or unwillingly. I honor your life. I honor all life.
This is what the warmakers and those who gleefully participate in it do not know:
honor life, all life is sacred.
Those of us who recognize this are enlightened.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)jaysunb
(11,856 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)your service." but I certain wish to be respectful. I do want to say that I recognize what you've done and ask you to forgive us for allowing our government to do that to you and all our troops.
I would like to know what you think would be appropriate other than "I forgive you" which of course I can not say because it doesn't apply. How about "I respect you for your service."
I did march against the war, which I think did have an effect but not as much as Kent State. One of my bones of contention was/is that not only did the wealthy boys get out of the fight, but a lot of the high school jocks also. You see when it came time to fight, the jocks all had sports injuries that got them deferments will us nerds*, were perfectly healthy. The SS rated me 1-A.
*Yes, I was a nerd before movies made nerds cool and smart. One of the nerds I graduated with was killed over there.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)See where their heads are at.
In trying to answer this, I realized it is a problem I have never faced. I just give the vets' Secret Handshake, say "Hi, Bro," and carry on from there. So I never really thought about it. Mostly I don't do or say anything to indicate my status, except to another vet. On those times when I get identified (e.g. by a friend introducing me or something) people will just say "Thank you for your service," and I say "You're welcome" and move on. It's not a big deal to me; I certainly can't speak for others vets.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)you wouldn't even know I'm a vet, I don't wear anything indicating that, but if I see someone wearing a vet hat, I'll nod and smile at them, sometimes even give a small salute and move on.
Telling someone thank you for your service or I respect you for your service is fine, some will acknowledge it, some will not.
merrily
(45,251 posts)the war after you got back from fighting it. And I'm so very glad you did get back.
ewagner
(18,964 posts)for years.....
Most of the guys I served with were there because they had no choice, or, more specifically they joined the air force because it was less likely that they would be shot at...because only a very tiny percentage of Air Force personnel ever saw combat....there were only a few "gung-ho" types who thought that by sitting behind that desk every day they were "fighting for our freedom"....generally, we laughed at them.
me? I wanted to learn how to fly and thought that would be the only way I could afford it and, what the hell, I was going to get drafted anyway.....ended up "flying a desk"...
I haven't joined any veterans groups...American Legion, VFW, etc...because there were guys who followed their orders and marched out into the bush every day...and put their life on the line...because they were told to...and some didn't come back...I don't belong in the same company...
When I see a vet who served "in-country"...I just give them a nod...to say "I understand"...and "I respect what you did."...
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)down at the local VFW/Am Legion are re-living their Big Adventure, lying to each other, & basking in the reflected light of what they think of as their glory days. I have never been tempted to join, except to maybe bug them about their politics, and most of the other combat vets I know won't go near those places either.
This may be a totally unfair impression I have, but then I have always been more concerned with getting past the war than with re-living it to eternity.
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)... but that it is mostly REMFs and the odd John-Wayne wannabe?
-- Mal
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)The long answer is "Yes."
ewagner
(18,964 posts)The first two letters stand for "Rear Echelon" and the second......I seem to remember......as something unflattering...
R-Rear
E-Echelon
M-Mother
F-Fucker
I ran into more than my share of those that were lamenting the fact that they weren't "out there in the shit".
I used to just shake my head in wonder at those gungho idiots.
Most of our ground crews weren't like that, they got to see first hand the holes in our choppers after a mission and knew they didn't want to "be in the shit".
DustyJoe
(849 posts)I was a lowly grunt in an Airmobile Infantry Brigade and saw plenty of combat, there were reported to be 8 REMF troops for every grunt 'on the line'. So when their were 500,000 in country during TET '68 you can assume about 65,000 in combat.
May I say though about our much maligned REMF brothers
They processed our pay
They made sure we got mail
Sent us food
Transported us so we didn't have to hump it
rearmed us
Filled our cavity when the C rats rotted our teeth
Sewed us up when we got hurt
Many many a time after a rough firefight in dense jungle, down to our last few mags of ammo, Crats and water low, wounded writhing in pain on the ground and our dead brothers covered and laying in a row. We awaited for the whop whop of the Huey flaring in to resupply, rearm, bring the mail, take the wounded for help and get our dead brothers out of the jungle hell.
Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers .... my aching ass, these guys were heavensent when it counted.
B Company 4th Battalion 12th Infantry
199th Light Infantry Brigade
January 1968 - May 1968
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)as you ground pounders, I flew many a CGS mission, evaced more than my share of wounded and KIA, did resupply, transport, etc.
I was shot down twice, returned to base with shot up choppers, several hard landings due to battle damage.
Yes, they did keep the troops supplied, but they were not on par with the troops that actually went into the field.
DustyJoe
(849 posts)I didn't mean the Slick Jocks
The REMFs that put together all the supplies, the ones that sorted the mail, filled the water bladders
and did all the mind numbing boring paperwork to get it all accomplished. Where would the grunts
have been without them ?
The slick crews in my unit at least were considered at par with any pounder
amongst us and I pulled more than one flight crew out of a flipped autogyrod hard landing in the trees.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I flew Slicks and Snakes.
DustyJoe
(849 posts)The 199th was a small integrated Brigade and the Air Wing of the Brigade was
not considered a rear echelon anything, they were right up there with the
rest of us.
Link is the 199th Aviation group.
http://signal439.tripod.com/redcatcher199lib/fireball.html
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Brings back memories.
Welcome Home Brother.
Capt. GGJohn
Co. A, 101st AVN Bn.
U.S. Army Ret.
RVN 1967-1969
Same welcome back to you Captain.
In the states before RVN I was in 504th QM 101st Airborne at Ft Campbell in 1967.
Ultimate High Alt REMF as we dropped jeeps and drums out of Hercules and Starlifters.
MADem
(135,425 posts)No one shooting at them, but they had to prepare the bodies for transport, day in, day out. And then, there's the people at the other end, who had to process the corpses for transshipment to funeral homes. That's a difficult job, even for someone who is psychologically prepared to handle it. Every body bag in every aluminum box, a life interrupted.
7962
(11,841 posts)Everyone has a job to do, but being under fire is certainly the toughest
heaven05
(18,124 posts)REMF may have been an attempt at elevating the macho, all I can say is 122's made everyone pucker........especially in a small basecamp like I was stationed at. REMF???? Fuck that!!!
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)My father, my brothers, and my SO's father have all said that those talking of their glory days, had none.
TBF
(31,919 posts)he decided he would like to get out of his small town & he liked the water. He enlisted in the Navy. Still injured from that service, but he wasn't shot at. The only group he belongs to is Disabled American Veterans and he explains Memorial Day as "that is for the guys who didn't make it back". All the platitudes about freedom and service are to encourage patriotic support for the war machine.
donnasgirl
(656 posts)I am asking for your permission to let him write a short note.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)a note, tell him, go ahead.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)You should start an original post though.
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)I was the platoon leader of 2nd platoon, A company, 2-2 infantry battalion, 3 rd brigade. I was on Iraq from feb 2004 to March 2005.
My war was Iraq and I was a fool to believe our military was actually for making the world a better place. For my stupidity I've been rewarded with severe PTSD (rated at 100% permanent and total by the VA) and I've spent roughly 5 of the last 12 months locked up in a psych ward. I lost 5 Soldiers under my command and I hate every day that I've made it back alive and they didn't.
Words from me sound silly here in the face of your experience, but I wish you peace.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Most of us who saw action have experienced survivor guilt, as well as a lot of other issues. You can pm me or a number of others if you think we can be of any help.
dpatbrown
(368 posts)out to you. You, and many others, were deceived, and that is morally wrong. Nothing but the best to you.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)in the streets of Los Angeles and west suburbs, protesting against Bush and Cheney's imperial wars of aggression. I feel like I sort of sacrificed the best years of my working career to protesting. And I'd do it all again in a heartbeat. I was really doing it for soldiers like you and the Iraqi and Afghan civilians. But your post still made me weep this grey, sullen morning.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)You have my deepest respect for your actions.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)annotation. I'm still scratching my head wondering if I could have done anything more. I suppose I shall never know.
redruddyred
(1,615 posts)I wasn't under the impression that ptsd generally made you a danger to yourself or others.
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)Last edited Mon May 25, 2015, 06:07 PM - Edit history (1)
I had a violent suicide attempt and I was involuntarily committed to the psych ward until they believed I wasn't suicidal anymore.
I love the reaction I get when I tell people about my problems. It's along the lines of "thanks for your service but your PTSD scares us and makes us uncomfortable". Maybe they should have though about that before they sent me to Iraq to spread " freedom".
-----Edit to add-----
I just lost my last job about 5 weeks ago. One of the things I lost my job for was the fact that people saw the suicide scars on my wrists and it made them uncomfortable. I have it written up in a letter from HR and my boss. I even told them "I'm sorry that the war you sent people like me is so troubling to you that you can't stand the thought that it could drive those who fought in it to try to kill themselves."
Fuck those people - and I even used to work for an agency in the federal government that prided Itself for hiring vets like me.
I'm really not trying to take this out on you or your post. This is something that I a very deep emotional baggage with.
redruddyred
(1,615 posts)I have ptsd too and am treated like shit.
people don't seem to understand that this is a manmade disaster so to speak.
like war and rape and domestic violence is shit that people create, and it predictably leaves scars. imo the stigma is in the same vein as the cruelty which created this reaction in the first place. that's how my therapist described it anyhow, "a normal reaction to an abnormal situation".
incidentally, "FUCK THOSE PEOPLE" sounds pretty legit to me, but I feel like expressing that kind of sentiment probably gets you called some names.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)cross lighten as time goes along and that you will find the peace you deserve. I spent eight months in VA, just a way to say, you're understood and respected.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)If I had a magic wand, I'd use it to roll back time for you. I hope that doesn't sound too dumb. I sincerely wish that we as a country had never invaded Iraq and never forced you to create these memories that no person should have to live with.
I wish you peace and good health. I hope you are receiving all the support humanly possible to provide.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)April 30, 1975 the Vietnam War officially ended. For some like Z. Woof's friends - earlier than that.
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)... is that most of the former know they are being screwed from the get-go, and most of the latter need to have some illusions punctured, first. Although there will always be a minority who love the whole idea of war (I went to school with a kid who wrote in his yearbook message that he couldn't wait to get to Vietnam and "kill 20 Cong a day." Never did find out what happened to him, but I suspect it was unpleasant for all involved). The volunteers of the present day may be in ignorance about the truth that General Butler exposed 70-odd years ago, but they probably learn quickly. The truth of "I didn't sign up for this shit" is something they have to face, deployment after deployment.
-- Mal
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)ZombyWoof?
If so, I didn't know he was a vet.
Paladin
(28,202 posts)I registered my strong and continuous stance against the Viet Nam conflict to do my small part in getting U.S. forces---some of my relatives included---home safe as soon as possible. I failed, as well.
Thank you for posting these comments kpete. I don't expect to read or hear anything more profound or moving, today.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)of returning soldiers being spat upon.
There was one returning vet who was shot by a crazy woman as he descended the open staircase from the plane at SFO, but I think most of the spitting stories were propaganda meant to split the hippies & the vets. Sure didn't work with me; I got involved in the antiwar scene at UW-Madison immediately upon my return. (Actually my antiwar activities started when I was still in the Army at Ft. Hood after getting back.)
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Welcome Home Brother.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Please end all wars now. Care. Respect. Peace. Love.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)rock
(13,218 posts)Probably the most important reason was: I served so I would not be imprisoned by my government.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)hung him in effigy. Yes, we protested the war, but most held the returning soldiers in much the same way as stated above. Most didn't have a choice, at the end of the day.
RIP to those who passed on, and Blessings on those who made it back.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Maybe it should be limited to Afghanistan/Iraq vets. Or Gulf War ones would probably take it OK and WWII. But for Vietnam it should be more like "sorry you had to do your service."
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)God bless you for your sacrifice. My dad and uncles all served in the military, I'm an USAF vet and my brother died while serving in the US Air Force in a foreign country.
Not a combat death but that 23 year old kid never saw his mother again or his home and he came back in a flag draped box.
If you protected your buddies in service, you did a righteous thing. God bless all vets today.
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)The whole country was hardly lined up in support of the war. It's a distinction of significance, since it is the disconnect between the rulers and the ruled that created most of the messes we've found ourselves in since WWII.
-- Mal
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)We sent boys to die protecting a dictatorship we set up and left 10 years later.
Now the godless commie hoard they fought and died fighting are our good trading partners, just like communist China!
And all the capitalists pigs that made money off off their needless deaths are laughing their asses off as they count their money.
Oh they might take their hats off today and pretend respect yeah while they push for another invasion of Iraq...
I mean war is a great business eh? The MIC always wins and the poor kids always lose regardless of which side wins the war!
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)I think it is specious to blame "the country" for the actions of the leadership. Certainly Z. Woof and the veterans who have posted in this thread are not responsible for their manipulation. They are due full honor for respecting their obligations and bearing the pain of the decisions of their rulers.
-- Mal
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)I am one, my brother died in service to his country, my dad was a WW2 vet and all my uncles as well a grand father that died in a WW1 camp and I have ancestors that fought and died in the Civil war.
I'm talking about the damn bastard MIC that the last decent republican president warned us about!
Those fuckers profit off of war and if none is handy they will make one up like Vietnam! OMG we have to stop the godless commies and then when the american public was bled dry they just start trading with the North Vietnamese like nothing ever happened between our two countries!
Oh and the red chinese commie hoard!!! Biggest traiding parter we got now! Try walking into a walmart and not finding anything from China! LOL
We are all suckers to capitalist pigs and the all mighty MIC!
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)... is that those whom you condemn can not properly be called "The Country," as they constitute only a small faction of the people thereof.
-- Mal
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but the vast majority of those of us that served in Vietnam, served honorably.
malthaussen
(17,065 posts)Seen Nick Turse's recent book, Kill Anything That Moves? Guaranteed to raise your blood pressure.
-- Mal
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)But my firm belief is that most of us served honorably, of course there were incidents, but those were not the norm.
7962
(11,841 posts)of course, the bad always gets the press.
salimbag
(173 posts)Depends on where you were, and when you were there. I was on PBRs, and we had lots of " free fire zones ". War is a racket!
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)It means honoring those who fell. Perhaps we can reserve our disdain for war for the other 364 days.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026726000
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I was to find out. I 1049'd to Vietnam because my father went on the beach in Normandy, was at Chosin Reservoir in Korea. I salute you. For doing what you thought was right. So did I. In spite of it all, welcome home.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)family had a military tradition that ended with me, it was expected of the male members of our family to enlist and serve.
I put a stop to that tradition with my kids even though I made a career of the military.
Welcome Home Brother.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)and because I was drafted and not ready for jail.
Welcome Home Brother.
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)Last edited Tue May 26, 2015, 05:42 AM - Edit history (5)
A sublime subject conveyed with just the right, matter-of-fact, mournful simplicity. And what a photo to go with it! I know infantry have it the hardest, though mercifully not by my own experience. Very high casualty turnover in WWII, not to speak of the mortality rate. And sent back into action, if possible, when recovered.
Strange though, I think there's a lot of truth in Dr Johnson's saying: 'Every man thinks the less of himself for not having been a soldier. But then, I was never 'at the sharp end' in a war. I don't suppose words could ever be adequate to describe the full horror of war, but Rick Atkinson probably comes as close to it as possible in the latter part of Volume III of his account of WWII, entitled, 'The Guns at Last Light'. A brilliant, fascinating book, particularly from the viewpoint of the quotes throughout the book from a vast range of people.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)..that did the same.
At times I'm ashamed I went. At other times I'm proud I went. But I am NEVER ignorant enough to believe that I ever went to protect my country, provide freedom, bring democracy, or any of that other bull shit that we have squeezed between our ears by the "big brother" that sends their loyal servants off to suffer and die for their selfish, greedy reasons.
I didn't make 365 days and a wake up. I lasted about two months, and I came home via Yokahama, where I was hospitalized for a month before I was sent stateside. What I witnessed opened my eyes to the horrors of war.
These evil sons of bitches that send young, brave and loyal men and women to fight their unjust wars should ALL be tried for treason, war crimes, and be publicly flogged; but we are a nation of ignorance that is controlled by propaganda from the media. A shame. I used to think it was the Soviet Union that was controlled. What a naive fool I was.
A sad day for those nearly 60,000 young men and women who didn't come home from that awful hell.
Welcome Home Brother.
11 Bravo
(23,922 posts)Last edited Mon May 25, 2015, 07:23 PM - Edit history (1)
to hop on that freedom bird, was dedicated to no other purpose than to cover the ass of the guys beside me. (I didn't actually get to hop aboard the TWA tits and ass homecoming bird. Mine was a priority medevac that eventually landed me at Walter Reed.)
But here I am today, hale, hearty, and still grieving for those who didn't make it back.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Welcome Home Brother.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)R.I.P.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)In Remembrance.
Elwood P Dowd
(11,443 posts)I was one of the lucky ones that spent my two years in the States. Some of my friends went over there, and many of the ones that made it back alive had issues that haunt them even today.
It drives me nuts when these idiot media guys, especially sports announcers, want to constantly push the story over and over about our troops protecting our freedom. I've heard that about a hundred times during various baseball games and races this weekend.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)those who have voluntarily joined the military in the past couple decades are somewhat culpable in their enabling of a system that has us invade other countries on false pretense and slaughter untold innocents to enrich U.S. corporations. And that's the cold, hard truth.
dflprincess
(28,057 posts)but let's remember that for too many joining the service is an economic choice (and shameful that it is).
For others, especially right after 9/11, they thought they were signing up to defend the U.S. - just like the men and women who enlisted right after Pearl Harbor. They didn't know they would be used to protect Halliburton's shareholders. And most who join are in their late teens or early 20s - not an age group known for wise decision making.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)It's too bad that we have a media that propagandizes any potential military action (and doesn't give any hint of the real agenda, which has nothing to do with "fighting for freedom" and a subpar education system and a low-wage or no-jobs environment for young people. That's the perfect storm for the terrible situation so many young soldiers find themselves in. I do blame people who further this "thank you to the military for protecting our freedom!" stuff that has been circulating particularly widely since 9-11. It makes it much more difficult for the real story to get out.
dflprincess
(28,057 posts)I gag every time I hear it.
I've come to hate going to Twins games because of all the rah-rah military since 9/11. National holidays are the worse - I went to a game on the 4th of July three or four years ago and I won't go again on that weekend. It was like Mayday in Red Square and I know there are other people who feel the same way but no one seems to know how to stop it.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)I thought we all knew by 1968 just how fucked up the establishment was by then.
The MIC is even stronger today.
What the fuck are we going to do about it?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And it turned out that Vietnam never even really went "communist", as far as that goes.
billy_j2
(2 posts)I understand that we want to support those who helped us Occupy Vietnam. Some were drafted, some volunteered. Many chose to burn their draft cards, even lose their USA citizenship to oppose the Illegal war based on the Lies of the Johnson Administration.
They bravely said enough GI's being dead in a war of Jingoism and occupation. They wanted the war to end and the troops to come home alive. They too were brave beyond words in their acts of civil disobedience.
Let us not lose respect and admit the bravery of those who opposed the war on this day as well.
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)the conscientious objectors. And he'd served in the Royal Artillery in Italy and probably elsewhere.
I didn't realise what fantastic opportunities I had to pick the brains of both my stepfathers about their experiences during WWII, especially my second stepfather. Not to speak of recording the yarns of an elderly Jewish neighbour who grew up in the East End (London), before the war.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)received brother duty and was sent to the east coast.