Sanders might do to Hillary what Nader did to Gore in 2000

[Backwoodsrider]

I am telling you I have seen this game before.

"In the 2000 presidential election in Florida, George W. Bush defeated Al Gore by 537 votes. Nader received 97,421 votes, which led to claims that he was responsible for Gore's defeat. Nader, both in his book Crashing the Party and on his website, states: "In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all."[77] Michael Moore at first argued that Florida was so close that votes for any of seven other candidates could also have switched the results,[78] but in 2004 joined the view that Nader had helped make Bush president.[79][80] When asked about claims of being a spoiler, Nader typically points to the controversial Supreme Court ruling that halted a Florida recount, Gore's loss in his home state of Tennessee, and the "quarter million Democrats who voted for Bush in Florida."[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#2000

I don't think for a second that Sanders is going to get elected in 2016, not after claiming for years that he was a socialist so what is he doing right now? He is stealing the fire from Hillary just like Nader did to Gore in 2000 but sucking in many of the motivated young people and money and TV time that could be used to attack the right but instead he is using them to attack Hillary. I don't know what is motivating Sanders but I am going to suspect he has a problem with authority and see's Hillary as fruit ripe for the picking. You don't think he is motivated by ego google 'sanders angry response'.

No I don't think Hillary is perfect but she is the best we got. Or we could join a losing cause and possibly get the GOP candidate elected and those suckers are crazy!

[Autumn]

1. Has Hillary won the primary yet? I must have missed that. Edited

By the way, Bernie is running as a Democrat. Unless you are in a panic about a corrupt supreme court awarding the Presidency to Bernie? Try as I may I just don't see a down side to that.

And since my dear friend is on one of her time outs I will post her DU mail to me here so that she has a voice.

VanillaRhapsody
and Bernie STILL isn't a Democrat
Mail Message
he said so himself....

[JustAnotherGen]

5. +1

[G_j]

6. +1000

[peacebird]

184. [phone]

[cui bono]

266. Today I found out I have something to be thankful for...

I'm not on VR's mailing list.

[Autumn]

267. Damn. Am I the only lucky one?

Who would have thought that when she's in a thread she's actually controlling herself. How shocking is that?

You know that Bernie's NOT a Democrat. Right? Here's another one:
He is running IN the Democratic Primary...he is NOT running AS a Democrat...sorry charlie...Starkist only accepts the best tasting tuna!

And it went on and on

[morningfog]

2. Gore won. Bush stole it.

And more Dems voted for Bush than the differential of the first count, some 40 times over.

This is a lazy, dribbling OP.

[deutsey]

11. +1 million

[John Poet]

104. Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris stole more votes in Florida

by disenfranchising African-Americans, than Nader got there.

And yeah-- the premise is bullshit. Bernie won't be contesting the general election.

And EVERY time I read some crap like this,
suggesting that Hillary should not even be challenged,
implying that challengers are damaging the Democratic party,
it just pisses me off a little bit more, and

it will just make it that much harder to vote for Hillary
if she's the nominee in the end.

[MrMickeysMom]

185. ^^^THIS^^^ is what happened to Gore, FYI

It's a weak and lazy excuse to use Ralph Nadar as a target. Please...

[JustAnotherGen]

3. Sanders has stated time and again

He won't be a third party spoiler in the G.E.

And I'm not so certain Clinton is in the bag.

And I'm not supporting either one at this point.

I'd like to see a really robust primary.

And I think the greatest risk is from a third party like Huntsman reaching across the aisle and grabbing Manchin.

[Backwoodsrider]

19. interesting take on the 3rd party

Could be because those GOP candidates are just friggin crazy. My claim is probably premature Sanders might back whoever wins the democratic primary but I don't think for 1 minute that any one of my Democratic family and friends would vote for a guy who claimed he was a socialist so he has no chance. Go ahead kids beat the streets for Sanders if that makes you feel good, the rest of us are going to be over here in reality working to move our country forward.

[Robbins]

25. I too live in reality

and it's one where obama and other dems have sold out all those who supported them.

It's time for a fight for democratic party that has been moving more and more to right since Bill CLinton despite what the grassroots of party think.

Anyone buying Hillary's new talk on income inequilty is as stupid as i was about Obama.If i wanted a republican i would vote for republican.

[Backwoodsrider]

90. I completely agree

Democrats sold out to the people decades ago, well after Carter I like him. But I guess we disagree on the solution. I think the best we have to work with right now is Hillary. Sure she is into what big money wants and that whole wordly scene but that's the only choice we got.

Just be careful following a guy like Sanders, don't trust ANY politician

[sendero]

265. Exactly..

.... the Clintons did more to give us this inequality than even Reagan. He words are just bullshit, she has nothing but ambition and will say anything at all. Just like Obama did.

[cali]

42. there's no "might back.. who wins" involved, kiddo

Senator Sanders is on the record multiple times vowing that he will endorse the winner. Period. Full stop. I get that you know nothing at all about him, so allow me to inform you, as he's my Senator:

He's not perfect but he is a man of his word. He's represented me in Congress for 25 years and to the best of my knowledge, he's never broken his word.

As for why I support his run, it's simple: I think his message needs to be heard and that this is a particularly ripe moment for that message- one that he has consistently delivered for nearly 40 years now.

so much kiddo, for your made up nonsense.

oh, and nice shit stirring, kiddo

[Robbins]

52. Yep

He said clearly he would endose winner of primary.Of course he's hoping it's him.

[Backwoodsrider]

97. interesting

You say he is a man of his word and he may be but he is still just a politician. When we look up to someone who is on a national scale we are probably going to be disappointed is all I am saying.

But as far as this being a 'ripe moment' for his message I guess that's what I don't get. What is his message besides anti establishment?

[karynnj]

108. "Just a politician"

How can you ever be disappointed, when you never give anyone a chance -- saying all of them are "just politicians"?

Bernie Sander's first elected office was mayor of Burlington. He won by 10 votes when he first ran against 2 Democrats (the party splintered) and a Republican. He won his LAST election to be mayor by a landslide against someone who had not just the Democratic line, but the Republican. Some people have said that one reason Burlington has a gorgeous waterfront park is because of his administration. One thing he ran on was "the waterfront is not for sale". To me, as someone who has lived in Burlington for a little more than two years, it is hard to imagine Burlington with high rises blocking the beautiful vista of the Adirondacks and Lake Champlain - seen from either of two large public parks.

Cali has WAY more history with him -- and it seems really dismissive of you to ignore her decades of experience being represented by him -- just arguing that he's a politician, as if that word meant he had no values or core beliefs.

I have met people who disagreed with Sanders' actions as mayor. I have not met anyone who did not think he was honest and worked according to his values.

[cali]

113. do the research. there are plenty of threads

here at DU about his platform. He's quite specific. Always has been. Here's just a bit:

Social Security: Raise the income cap. This is an idea supported by MANY dems.

Raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans- including raising taxes on cap gains and derivatives.

Rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, providing jobs as well as repairing and upgrading it.

Break up the "too big to fail" banks. Martin O'Malley also supports this.

A living wage- minimum raised to $15 an hour in a 3 year time period.

invest in renewables, specific plans to address climate change- He's rated as the most effective member of Congress and the "greenest" by Climate Hawks Vote. Other orgs like 350.org recognize his work on the environment as well.

He's also been recognized by just about every Veterans Group for his work on Vet issues, particularly healthcare.

stop expanding drilling for oil and fracking

There's a lot more but do your own homework. You can sgo to his Senate website and for a more personal view into who he is, tune in to Thom Hartmann's Brunch with Bernie show. It's on every Friday and Bernie takes calls and answers questions. He's been doing that for over ten years.

There's a reason that Sanders is so overwhelmingly popular in Vermont (he has an approval rating of 71%). He's responsive to constituents and has very good constituent services. Could be that's a major reason he gets a significant number of republican votes every election.

To start with, you can read the wiki article on him
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#Committee_assignments

[Backwoodsrider]

120. he has the politician wordiness down

But I don't think the repubs would allow ANY of those far left ideas pass if they ever came up. I have been more looking at his voting record that's about all we can judge a senator by anymore and he appeared to vote far left on a few items that went to cloture but otherwise he seemed pretty average.

Remember politicians use these words and ideas to empower a voter before an election but realistically along with the other side of the aisle what can they get passed when it comes time to do their job?

[daleanime]

136. Gee, you're awful fond of words yourself.....

What's the old saying? 'You can bring a horse to water, but you can't stop him from shitting in it.'

[safeinOhio]

73. Truth be told

He claims to be a Democatic Socailist and once the world understands the clown car is full of neo-fascist it'll be no contest.
Don't worry, we will vote for Sanders in the primary and Hillary in the general. All you have to do is make a better case for her. Best of luck.

[Backwoodsrider]

264. thank you

I hope I am wrong about my point of view because my life would be a lot easier if our government did something for the people and not big money. However I think the US government is past that. I equate our empire to Rome and Greece and think we are on the downward slope and the extreme left is fighting a losing battle but I could be wrong.

[JustAnotherGen]

83. No Labels

I think that PAC has more money than they let on. It's Huntsman's and Manchin carries water for him.

Rand Paul wins the nomination - he's going to turn off a lot of centrist Republicans. They go Huntsman/Manchin. Huntsman/Manchin could pick off the white male working class vote on the left.

Just a theory - but my Libertarian Town Councilman - in a mostly blue borough who is pretty well respected . . . he's chomping at the bit for a Huntsman Candidacy.

We do No Labels in our community. Just our borough - there are four of us. Funny what happens when you strip it all away and move forward on rebuilding a small town.

We can't fix Washington - they are absolutely worthless. Trenton NJ is even worse - they suuuuuuuuck. But we can fix our own backyards. If I have to partner with a Libertarian, Green, and Republican as a Democratic Party member to address the heroin in our school system, the militarized state police presence in our town last Tuesday over a $1300 coke bust, getting the 'White History Month Sign' guys business shut down by voting with our wallets, and making the History Walk a reality -

I'll do it.

I don't know precisely how it will translate at the National Level - or even a State Level - but in small towns - it works to put all of the preconceived notions aside and work with our neighbors. We have no choice.

The Governors and Federal Elects have zero desire to help us.

[Backwoodsrider]

141. thank you just another gen thats a brilliant post

Especially liked the "no labels' point of view and yeah this all starts on our own backyard. I go between there is no hope these folks are crazy to maybe we do have a change if the universe wants it to I am doing the right thing right now everything else will fall into place like it is supposed to.

[JustAnotherGen]

169. I get frustrated at DU sometimes

Right now everyone is focused on something that can happen a year and a half from now.

I've gt a school budget vote that I disagree with coming up next month . . . And school board election.

What's interesting in our efforts - in our town we feel victimized by Chris Chrstie. He's never going to be the President when two Republicans on my street (heavy donors to boot) hate him. We can do things now to combat Trenton - we can do things now to combat DC.

Every single DUer that has a school focused election could make a massive impact on their community if they spent half as much time active at the local level as they do at DU.


But - thank you for this convo - I greatly appreciate it. I've got people coming over at 7 to talk this budget (anti teacher and student) and our strategy for our school board nominees!

[mythology]

101. Sanders will back whoever wins the primary

Even if you think he will lose, whoever wins the Democratic primary will be closer to Sanders' preferred positions than the Republican primary winner.

Just like Hillary and Bill Clinton did for Obama.

I think Sanders won't win, but he's not wrong for running if he thinks he can provide a unique voice/platform. And his supporters aren't wrong for supporting him.

[John Poet]

107. So your friends and family are more interested in 'labels',

than on a candidate's actual positions on issues?

That doesn't say much for their intelligence.

[John Poet]

109. That level of condescension

isn't going to win you much support for Hillary. Kid.

[Zenlitened]

116. I'm not sure winning support for Hillary Clinton...

...is really the objective here.

[John Poet]

117. I was thinking the same myself,

right after I posted that...

[MrMickeysMom]

190. Funny, but the majority of voters in races already HAVE voted for a Socialist Democrat...

The others might have stayed and drank the kool aid to come away with that. But, it sounds more like B.S. to me.

[LWolf]

260. Your Democratic family and friends

might be a tad er...uninformed when it comes to socialists, and to Sanders, if that's what you think. You might want to investigate a bit further. Are your Democratic family and friends Democratic enough to support and vote for either of the Roosevelts? Tell us how Sanders is "worse."

[randys1]

57. Zero chance Bernie will risk doing a Nader, he knows how much harm the right

intends to impose on all living things if power is taken/stolen.

Unlike some, Bernie knows full well the mountain, the Rocky Mountain range of difference between Hillary and any con.

[marions ghost]

168. Right

--the comparison to Nader doesnt wash, because of who Sanders is.

[Jackpine Radical]

106. And grabbing Manchin wouldn't be a far reach.

Jeez, Gen--like I really needed one more bizarre scenario to worry about. (ALL currently likely scenarios are bizarre.)

[leftofcool]

4. I have popcorn, anyone want extra butter?

[villager]

7. How dare more than one person ever run... in a primary!

What kind of electoral process do they think this is, anyway!?

[libdem4life]

13. What a concept...2 candidates in a Primary...Wow. And Bernie has stated he will not be a Spoiler.

I believe him...as transparency and consistency and honesty are among his better attributes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. El dedazo y el destape

no wonder I see PRI insignia everywhere, oh wait. That tricolor is red white and blue, not red white and green.



Some people though would prefer that...I suspect.

[villager]

21. PRI, indeed.

An increasingly good analogy for American "elections." Alas.

[hootinholler]

8. Oh Noes!11!1!!11

[LondonReign2]

111. We needed a new sock to play with

[sufrommich]

9. Bernie Sanders is a decent person, there's absolutly no

reason to believe he's running to damage someone else. This is ridiculous.

[Backwoodsrider]

23. its about power

This is smash mouth politics and I would LOVE to see Hillary in a free debate with Sanders.

[Zenlitened]

38. "I would LOVE to see Hillary in a free debate with Sanders"

You should tell that to the guy who wrote the OP.

Wed May 13, 2015, 01:32 PM
Backwoodsrider
23. its about power
This is smash mouth politics and I would LOVE to see Hillary in a free debate with Sanders.

See also:

Democrats approve six presidential primary debates
...The debate stage will include Clinton and Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont, an independent who is seeking the Democratic nomination. ...
http://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2015/05/05/democrats-primary-debates-six-dnc/

[cali]

67. No. It's about ideas and issues. It has nothing to do with "smash mouth politics"

and you'll get the opportunity to hear Sanders and HRC and O'Malley and others debate.

[Backwoodsrider]

78. their ideas are just foder for the masses

We all know once the candidate wins pres they throw all those "lets close Gitmo" statements out and do what Big money wants them to

[cali]

94. what are you babbling about? and just who do you think you are,speaking for "all"?

and sorry, my utterly lacking in any knowledge whatsoever, backwoods friend, but Bernie doesn't take big money and never has.

Your stunning ignorance and ugly shit stirring have been noted- and not just by me- read the responses to your... shit.

And do tell, backwoodser, what is wrong with holding a candidate to their promises once he or she has been elected?

You seem to have a faulty memory to go along with your abject lack of knowledge: President Obama is the one who DEMANDED we hold his feet to the fire.

I have nothing but contempt for the nasty little habit of making stuff up- and that is all YOU have done, backwoodser; that and run, run away from the posts calling you on your made up, ugly crap.

Oh, and backwoodser? The word is "fodder", not "foder".

I suggest you stop prevaricating and shit flinging.

[Zenlitened]

118. It's spelled "Fodor"

You're welcome.

[tritsofme]

10. Sanders has pledged not to run on a third party ticket in the general

Not to mention that if his name appears on primary ballots, he would be ineligible to run as an independent in many states due to their "no sore loser" laws.

[okaawhatever]

33. +100 nt

[TBF]

12. He's not running as an Indy - try again.

[libdem4life]

18. Yes, and being a come-lately, I do not believe he carries the negative baggage of said Party. Just

has been historically aligned and now a participant.

As a Democrat, I've always admired him and will happily vote for him to bring the Democratic Party back to the Left. Sorry, Hillary does not have that ability...no matter what she says now, as she puts her moistened finger in the air.

Another of my Dad-isms...Actions speak louder than words.

[TBF]

82. That's the best part.

I volunteered for Obama in 2008 because I knew he had the ability to win. While there are things I like about Hillary there is still a lot of baggage to contend with, and I don't see how anything has really changed since 2008. If Bernie is willing to run as a dem I am willing to support him 100%. He has shown us that he is a person of character and consistency.

[libdem4life]

88. Amen to that. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. "I will not be a spoiler."

“No matter what I do, I will not be a spoiler. I will not play that role in helping to elect some right-wing Republican as President of the United States.”


-Bernie Sanders

[Backwoodsrider]

26. and i did not have sex with that woman and there are WMDs in Irag and....

people remember us not by what we say but by what we do...

[tkmorris]

50. Of course they do

So tell me, what has Sanders DONE to make you judge him in this manner? Or is this just another baseless attack on a candidate you aren't backing?

[Backwoodsrider]

100. I am wary of people who become national folk heros

They will disappoint. Sanders jumped in this race early. I have known of him through national media for years and I saw him motivated and that caught my interest. So I started watching him as he did the various talk shows on MSNBC and CNN. He appeared put off and irritated standing talking about whatever national issue. Finally 2 weeks ago I saw him get into it with someone in the crowd just like Chris Cristie and that was all I had to see, then I started noticing he is fitting into the same mold as Nader.

[kenfrequed]

251. This is irony.

Why the hell would you be so gung ho for any candidate if you believe they are all politicians that lie?

I kind of doubt the sincerity of your posts and I think you are just here to try to anger people. Please leave.

[Backwoodsrider]

255. I am sorry you feel that way

I sometimes have that affect on people but am working on it. I am not gung ho for a candidate just do not want anything to happen to the democratic candidate winning in 2016. I know my theory is just that at this point but I saw some red flags and will continue to watch to see if my ideas pan out.

Again sorry if I made anyone angry, I could of been more sensitive when I spoke of your candidate. I don't have to prove anything, pretty quick it will probably be obvious either I was right or I was wrong lol

[kenfrequed]

257. Double "feh"

I don't "feel" any particular way other than annoyed at your complete inconsistency. You haven't actually said anything of value and all of your claims have been immediately invalidated by facts and the most basic observation. When you get caught in saying something untrue you immediately switched to "well he is a politician and they all lie" sort of thing which makes no sense.

Your apology isn't sincere at all and actually makes little sense.

Again, leave. The only one throwing up red flags right now is you.

[Backwoodsrider]

263. well my apology is true

Sorry I am not able to communicate that to you. Yes I have some ups and down. Bring a retired paraplegic with a bachelors in social science tends to leave me a little anxious when it comes to world affairs. I still hold to my theory about Sanders, I have a minor in Psychology and am looking forward to this upcoming election to see if my theories pan out.

Again I wish I would of been more sensitive when I started this thread about how I really feel about your man Sanders but whats done is done. I hope over time you see I might really not be a bad guy.

[Gothmog]

15. Sanders is competing in the primaries

Sanders has stated that he will not run as a third party.

[upaloopa]

16. Sanders will lose in the primary he will not

run as an independent so I don't see how your idea can work.

[Backwoodsrider]

36. in 2016 enough left voters might 'sit this one out' because their guy didnt win primary

Or enough voters might write in Sanders for an election to slide over to the republican side but what I am most concerned about is that Sanders and his populist message has taken the forefront right now but come nov 2016 none of his far out points is going to be an issue. We should already be on message talking towoards the base not the extremists on the fringe.

[ieoeja]

46. Name one.

Name one fucking "far out point" of Sanders. Just one. Come on. You can do it. You're claiming his positions are fringe. So you must know what they are. Tell us! Speak the fuck up.

[randys1]

65. I cant believe I read that either. Wow...with friends like that, how are we ever going to get the

cons to figure out what is going on.

I mean if someone who claims to be a Democrat uses language like that, there is no hope for the cons to ever figure out what is what

[Backwoodsrider]

126. calling for a political revolution is pretty far out

http://www.socialistalternative.org/2015/05/09/bernie-sanders-independent-campaign/

[LeftOfWest]

135. Oh brother....

so you are a billionaire? Is that what this is? Does he scare YOU?

That is a great article. Fuck the 1%.

[Backwoodsrider]

137. yes he sort of scares me a little

I mean he is an angry white politician that is developing a cult following based only on words but no besides that he might be a great president for the middle class...

[ieoeja]

151. The Reagan Revolution must really scare you. Since it already actually happened. n/t

[RichVRichV]

227. The words mean nothing...

without the track record to back it up. I don't believe in Bernie because of what he says. I believe in him because he's been following through on what he says for 30 years.

We were burned 6 years ago by a first term senator running for president who spoke with great progressive words and then failed to live up to them in my opinion. This is why I'm in the minority for not really wanting Warren as president. She says all the right things, and even though she's been much more liberal than Obama was as senator I'm still leery of first term senators without the long track record. Besides she's kicking butt in the senate, so I want her to stay right there.

Bernie on the other hand has been fighting the good fight all his long political career. He has a track record a mile long fighting for the middle class and poor. He's stood up against monied interest at every stage. I see no reason for that to change after all this time. If he could be bought it would have happened long ago. Some people just have principles. I know it's hard to believe in this day and age but it does happen.

Hillary on the other hand has been backed by corporations for years and has repeatedly voted in their interest, not mine. That's why she won't get my vote. You're mistaken in believing the left won't vote for Hillary because of Bernie if he loses. On the contrary, I made up my mind long before Bernie ever mentioned he might declare that I wouldn't vote for her or any other corporate candidate anymore. I'm done with the lesser of two evils. My not voting for Hillary has absolutely nothing to do with Bernie. If she wins the primary some on the left may vote for her because she has a (D) next to her name, and some won't because they are sick of corporate pandering candidates. Either way it will be their choice and not because of Bernie. That's just an excuse you're using to try and turn people against him.


If you're happy with the status quo then vote for Hillary. If you prefer bat-shit crazy then vote republican. I'm voting for Bernie because his beliefs are closest to my beliefs in government. That's all it comes down to.

[Backwoodsrider]

237. make sense to me

But I don't have much faith in the electoral process. Like George Carlin says elections are just to make us think we have control. If you think Sanders is the right person to represent us progressives and he can get past the first blocks Big Money can throw up go for it. I think the status quo wants either a repub or Hillary and once Hillary gets in maybe she has a chance to do some good things. I don't rain on people dreams but Sanders is a long shot, I think he is too far left of center to do anything but use the drive and energy of the far left, but time will tell.

Again I did not mean to stir this stuff so early on with this thread but we got lots of discussion and are probably more sure than ever we are correct!

[RichVRichV]

240. Don't play into their hands.

Believing that it's rigged and your vote doesn't matter is exactly what the people buying elections want. It's a self fulfilling prophesy.

As long as the elections are decided by our votes then it is us that ultimately decide who is electable. Not the money and not the media.

Regardless of who you believe in vote for them. Don't worry about someone else telling you that you shouldn't or why it's a waste. Let me throw a little zen philosophy at you. If your vote matters then use it to make a difference. If the system is rigged and your vote doesn't matter then cast it for your belief. It won't hurt the system anyways. There's never a reason to vote against your own interests or not vote at all.

Even if the person you vote for doesn't win your vote is still making it known that you're out there and that you want change. If enough people eventually agree with you then the people in power find that they are no longer in power.

[cali]

144. and Hillary called for "toppling the 1%"

Btw, YOU don'seem to be fooling anyone here

I love socks. They keep my toes toasty warm.

[libdem4life]

47. Extremists on the Fringe...Extreme, how? Fringe, Just announced? And the base message would be????

[upaloopa]

54. Sanders does not have "far out points."

We all know him and support his view point. I think his problem is that he says he is a socialist and that would work against him in the general election. I am glad he is in the race.

[BlindTiresias]

59. Far out?

Sorry, if you think his left of center positions are "far out" then you are the extremist.

[frylock]

70. i too would like to pile on to point out how fucking ridiculous your statement looks

[LondonReign2]

123. You are correct. Except the extremists on the edge are the Third Wayers

trying to remake the Democratic Party into the economic policies of moderate 1980s Republicans

[tkmorris]

124. Holy crap dude, go back to modding your Harley

Politics aint your thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Odd given that Sanders is running for the democratic primary.

I did not realize Nader ran for the Democratic primary in 2000...oh wait, he did not.

Nice adorable try though.

[greenman3610]

22. I still remember "There's not a dimes worth of difference between Al Gore and George Bush"

thanks for 8 years of hell, death destruction, and Citizen's United, Nader voters!!!

[jeepers]

61. After twenty years of DNC triangulation

corporate facism,, two failed ppresidential elections and economic devastation and you think maybe it's time to elect a corporate critic and consumer watchdog?

The only difference between Bernie Sanders and Ralph Nader is that Nader ran as an independent and Sanders will run as a democrat.

Sanders shows a little more political savy in that he will run with the democrats to beat them whereas Nader believes the two party system is corrupt and undeserving of his support.

[WDIM]

24. Sanders is not "attacking Hillary"

And he is not going to take votes away from Hillary if she were to get nomination. He is not running as a third party and your comparison to Nader is way off base.

If anything you can compare Sanders to Obama in 2008 coming in as a strong grassroots candidate with support from common everyday citizens not corporations and not the 1%.

I dont understand why Hillary supporters are so affraid of having a true honest debate among multiple candidates in the primaries. This will only build interest and more support for democrats in the general election because it will bring forth the issues and show the differences between the democrats and repugs.

Having a competitive primary will keep democrat issues in the headlines. Without a competitive democrat primary repubs are going to dominate the headlines and the talking points.

[marmar]

27. More flogging of the discredited meme that Nader cost Gore the election......

..... the Supreme Court cost the election by judicial fiat.

[NCTraveler]

28. You should reconsider your thoughts about Sanders.

I am now leaning toward Hillary, but Sanders isn't the person you think he is. I truly believe him to be a good man. He wouldn't even take a chance like Nader. If he is close in the early primaries, look for a long fight. If his numbers in those early states are bad, look for him to endorse Hillary. I also don't see how he is stealing anything from Hillary. She is a giant and a leader. I also don't think he has a problem with authority at all. In fact, he wants to strengthen the authority of the federal government. Yes, he has an ego. Pretty small one for politics at that level, but an ego none the less. If you are looking for someone without an ego you will be without anyone to support in this election.

[seabeyond]

29. nader was diferent party splitting pres vote. sanders is running a primary with clinton. what is

so hard about that?

[AtomicKitten]

30. You are so woefully uninformed, it's embarrassing to read on this website.

[still_one]

31. Big difference, Nader was third party, Bernie isn't. Second if Hillary wins the nomination

Bernie is not going to run as an independent, he already said he won't be a spoiler

Most Bernie supporters will vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is, including those at DU

[Buns_of_Fire]

32. Stealing what "fire" from Hillary?

He's outlining his positions. Hillary can do the same, should she choose to.

If they're the same, fine. If they're not, that's probably something we should know, too.

[MohRokTah]

34. Complete Balderdash.

Nader ran in the Green Party. Sanders is seeking the Democratic nomination.

You compare meatloaf to forests.

Your concern has been noted, though.

[RandiFan1290]

35. Cool story, bro!

[libdem4life]

37. His decades of transparency and consistency are what will undermine Hillary, if nothing else.

There are a lot of folk, from all parties, that respect that.

If anyone here thinks that an ultimate debate between Jeb Bush and Bernie Sanders will help the Republicans, think again. Hillary, unfortunately is in that same "entitlement" syndrome and has had to be all over the political map through the years...especially now.

Today, yes it's a long shot. As the real stumping begins, we'll see.

[99Forever]

39. Thar be panic In Hillaryland.

Oh my,.

[MaggieD]

40. Yep, and DU seems to be doing its best

To ensure Rethugs win the presidency and thus control ALL branches of government.

[frylock]

76. duh-herrrrrrrr

[bluesbassman]

112. I hope your candidate doesn't embarrass herself making broad brush statements like that.

It's been my observation that scare tactics are usually an ineffective method of delivering one's message, but YMMV.

[MaggieD]

125. It's a fact, not a "scare tactic"

You're upset because people are making obvious obsevations. All Bernie has to do is change the (I) to a (D) and it goes away. It's not up to anyone but him to do that. Sorry, but that's just reality. Politics is not for sissies or fencesitters.

[bluesbassman]

132. Let me see if I have this straight...

MaggieD (1,476 posts)
125. It's a fact, not a "scare tactic"

You're upset because people are making obvious obsevations. All Bernie has to do is change the (I) to a (D) and it goes away. It's not up to anyone but him to do that. Sorry, but that's just reality. Politics is not for sissies or fencesitters.

It's a "fact" that DU is doing it's best to elect Republicans to all branches of government. I'm sure you have plenty of links to back that claim up.

Sanders is running for the DEMOCRATIC nomination, and will register as a D where it is required to do so. This has been pointed out to you so many times already that your continued pushing of this angle of attack against Sanders makes you look uneducated.

On the other hand suggesting that Sanders is a "sissie" because he has not fulfilled YOUR expectation of what a Democratic candidate should be, well that makes you look something else entirely.

[MaggieD]

138. Yes, you have that right

Unless you're going to try to claim that trashing Democratic politicians all over the internet HELPS them get elected. There are no links that could possibly back that up, so I won't ask for any.

As for Bernie, he can SAY whatever he wants (just like Ralph did), but there is a reason he has not changed his party affiliation from (I) to (D). Why do you think he refuses to do that?

[bluesbassman]

155. Well why don't you just ask Bernie then...

[MaggieD]

156. So why does he keep using (I) after his name?

Seems like he wants to have his cake and eat it too. He's certainly preserving his options for a reason, isn't he?

[bluesbassman]

158. Well it costs a lot of money to have all your shits re-monogrammed.

Guess Bernie is just being thrifty.

[MaggieD]

159. Uh huh

That MUST be it. LOL!

[TM99]

205. Quite simple really if you though about it.

He is running as a primary challenger within the Democratic Primary. On all necessary registration forms for each individual state, he will register or re-register as a Democrat.

But until he either wins or loses, he is still a sitting Senator. Because VT does not have any party affiliation, he is the Independent Senator from Vremont who caucuses with the Democrats. It is appropriate and professional to still address him by his current title, Sen. Sanders (I) because that is his current and accurate title.

There is no grand conspiracy here, no matter how fucking hard you are trying to make one up.

[MaggieD]

208. But he doesn't want to be known as one?

Why?

Clue for you - Vermont voter registration has nothing to do with it. See Leahy, Patrick, (D) - for like the last several decades. Stop making excuses for Bernie. It's bullshit.

[TM99]

210. Irrelevant bullshit.

You repeatedly make claims that you can not substantiate. When corrected with facts, you just change your line of attack or make another set of baseless claims.

You have been schooled in your errors. Now only you can learn from that schooling. Good luck with that dude.

[MaggieD]

213. Huh? I have to prove to you he has an (I) after his name?

You can't just see that for yourself? LMAO. Okay.

Well here you go then. http://www.sanders.senate.gov/ - substantiated. Done.

[TM99]

228. I just explained to you why.

You are the one ignoring that explanation and making up your own.

[MaggieD]

229. Your explanation was BS...

About Vermont voter registration laws. Has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with candidates identifying with a party affiliation. Again, see Patrick Leahy (D) Vermont for decades. Stop making excuses. You have no argument to defend him.

[TM99]

231. Go away.

You bullshit just doesn't fly here anymore.

Thanks for playing though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. Hmm, I am getting a craving for vanilla icecream

[MaggieD]

233. LOL!

Yes, that's what the puretopians say when their argument is detroyed. Nothing new there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

214. You are wasting your time

she has been shown this by multiple posters. At this point obtuse is the nice term to use.

[Lil Missy]

41. Big difference - Bernie is not running 3rd Party. n/t

[Backwoodsrider]

43. just putting this idea out there

I base this thesis on what I saw happen in Florida in 2000 where Nader stole enough of the public vote to allow the SC to call the election. And I see similarities between Sanders and Adler, they both were folk heros to the extreme left and at least 1 of them screwed the left.

There is a reason Sanders has already said "Oh no I am not going to get in the way of whoever wins the primary" because it must of came up. The folks in DC know he stands no chance nobody I know would vote for him because he was a socialist so whats he doing? That's all I am asking is whats he doing running?

[HERVEPA]

48. Oh, and who cares who the people you know are voting for.

[Oilwellian]

167. You do realize, more Dems in Florida voted for Bush

than for Nader, by a very large amount. Also, Bernie has described himself as a Democratic Socialist, not a Socialist. So again, you're wrong. I highly recommend you study up on the difference between the two. Also, I would refrain from posting any further until you do. Best to do that than to continue posting and remove all doubt of your inept political acumen.

[TransitJohn]

242. 'Stole'?

WTF? Don't like democracy? He got the votes he got; he didn't steal anything from Gore.

[Backwoodsrider]

245. Nader knew exactly how Florida was going to play

Gore was going to win the popular vote but 3% of mostly democrats(why on Earth would a repub vote for Nader?) so when the SC called it for Bush it didn't look too bad where if Gore had won by 4 to 6% which is what he would of done if Nader had not stunk up the mess the SC would of had a hard time pulling Florida over to Bush. Is any of what I said not true?

[TransitJohn]

248. Yes, you saying Nader stole votes from Gore is untrue.

Nader voters voted for Nader, and Gore voters voted for Gore. No one's entitled to any votes, they have to earn them.
And why on earth would a Democrat vote for Bush? A quarter million did in Florida in 2000.

[Backwoodsrider]

249. Google Nader stole Florida i dont think its just me

Ralph Nader was crucial to George W. Bush's win in 2000 against Al Gore. But Nader turned out to be superfluous to then-President Bush's win against John Kerry in 2004. Nader was trying to do damage to the Democratic Party, and he succeeded in 2000, but not in 2004. In fact, in 2000, he turned out to be the most indispensable person of all to the George W. Bush "win." And Nader was secretly ecstatic about that. Here are the details:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

[TransitJohn]

250. No, you're right, lots of other people are wrong, too

Words have definitions.

[geek tragedy]

44. Really foul to compare Bernie to Nader. Trash thread. nt

[HERVEPA]

45. Stupid, stupid post. Poster should educate himself.

Bernie will not run as 3rd party. That is abundantly clear to anyone paying the slightest attention.

[bluestateguy]

49. Gore wins Florida by 12,000 votes if you take Nader out of the race

That's according to extrapolations from the exit poll Nader himself cites.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

244. Over 300,000 Democrats voted for Bush.

George W. Fucking Bush. They don't get a pass.

[bluestateguy]

246. There is an element of truth to that

But you are talking about Northern Florida panhandle good ole boy Southern Democrats who are only registered "Dimmycrat" on paper.

These are folks in Okaloosa County or Santa Rosa County who haven't actually voted for a Democrat since Carter in 1976. They voted for Reagan, the Bushes and Bob Dole.

They never got around to going down to the county courthouse to fill out the paperwork to formally change parties. You get a lot of that in the South.

[L0oniX]

51. YAwn

[NuclearDem]

53. How many times is this stupid fucking meme about Sanders going to surface?

[MaggieD]

58. Probably until....

He changes the (I) after his name to a (D). I don't see any reason to trust that he won't run as an Independent and spoiler until he makes the change.

[G_j]

63. he has said he will NOT be a spoiler!!!!!!!!!! nt

[MaggieD]

66. Ralph said that too...

Right before he decided to become a spoiler.

[G_j]

74. Nader was third party from the start,

so what you say is incorrect.

[MaggieD]

79. No he actually said...

He would not run in swing states and act as a spoiler. Bernie is a third party too. That's why he has (I) after his name instead of (D).

[G_j]

84. I get what you are saying

however, I trust Sanders. Of course you don't, as you have made brightly obvious you don't like him.

[MaggieD]

142. I don't trust any politician

And frankly, I do not understand why any person who understands politics would.

[frylock]

77. gooble-gobble

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. I don't think Sanders will go rogue once he loses the primary.

If he were interested as running as a spoiler, he'd be doing it already, rather than running in a primary he can't win.

[AgingAmerican]

56. Nader ran as third party

Thus your argument is a strawman.

[Agnosticsherbet]

60. Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, SCOTUS, Republican Congressional aids who rioted

and committed felonies and former CIA men who worked first for Bush's father and later for W were the cause.

Nader is a narcissist with an ego the size of a planet, but what he did was an annoyance more than a cause.

[BlindTiresias]

62. Bernie is running as a Dem

You are misinformed or disingenuous, take your pick.

[MaggieD]

68. He is? Why no (D) after his name then?

[Comrade Grumpy]

91. Give this tired diversionary crap a rest. n/t

[MaggieD]

140. You mad, bro?

Look, there has to be a reason he won't change his party affiliation from (I) to (D). Right? Definitely leaves him the option to run as an Independent and a spoiler if he loses the Dem primary, which he will.

[Orsino]

64. I have seen THIS game before.

Played much better, too.

2/10 would not bang.

[Smarmie Doofus]

69. Meh. If Gore had broken definitively w. corporate-state ideology Nader would have received no votes at all

If Clinton is going to prattle on idiotically about Wall Street being "scapegoated" for the embarrassingly widening chasm between between the.01 and the rest of America while at the same time speculating publicly about which defiant third world countries she'd like to see "annihilated" ... she's going to have to calculate ( or get her handlers to calculate, if said calculation is too tough for her) that a lot of thinking people are NOT going to be on board.

[Bluenorthwest]

71. this is embarrassing to read.

nt

[KamaAina]

72. Nader ran in the Dem primary?

News to me.

[tularetom]

75. Gore was his own worst enemy

He refused the assistance of the sitting Democratic president (who was still very popular), made an awful choice of running mate, and prematurely threw in the towel on the recount in Fla. Nader had nothing to do with his loss.

Bernie Sanders, if he fails to gain the nomination of the Democratic party, will not be a factor in the general election. He won't run as a third party candidate and he will surely support the party's nominee. I'm not sure I could say the same thing about Clinton if she is not the nominee.

Hillary Clinton is a horrible candidate and not much of a Democrat to boot. Nevertheless, if the Democratic party sees fit to nominate her as it's presidential candidate I will hold my nose and vote for her. It sure as hell won't be the first time.

[Art_from_Ark]

268. Gore distanced himself from Clinton

because of Clinton's overblown scandals and the tech stock implosion that started in March 2000, and probably other things that we'll never know about.

However, his early concession was definitely a mistake, as was having Lieberman on the ticket.

[1StrongBlackMan]

80. No, he won't ...

Bernie has stated, specifically, that he will NOT play the 3-rd party spoiler. And I trust that he is good to his word.

(Wait a minute, I said "I trust" him ... does that make me a hero-worshiper because I am willing to take Bernie at his word?)

[leftofcool]

110. No, I am going to trust him too.

I have taken people at their word before and been burned, so we will see.

[1StrongBlackMan]

114. True ...

But I don't see Bernie running 3rd-party, should he lose the Democratic primary ... much to the dismiss of some of his supporters.

[Trajan]

81. So ... We should crown a Victor and gear up for the General Election before the Primary season ?

This makes zero sense ...

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

85. If Bernie wins the primary, will Hillary run as an independent?

I don't think either of them will run as a spoiler.

[cali]

86. shit stirring and shit flinging may be the

thing to do in your neck of the backwoods, but in my corner of the backwoods it's frowned upon- and as even a blind squirrel can see, DU doesn't look too kindly on it either... kiddo

[Backwoodsrider]

92. I do not mean to be a shit stirrer

And am usually not its just my opinion, time will tell the facts but until it is untrue I am going to push my opinion.

[deutsey]

115. An opinion based on iron-clad truthiness, apparently n/t

[cali]

119. so it matters not a whit to you that dozens of people in this thread

a good half of them, HRC supporters, have informed you that you're wrong. You discard all information about Sanders and you ignore posts from people familiar with him.

Your opinion is worth shit because it's neither considered or informed- and you have been given plenty of information and evidence that your phony fears are baseless.

SHAME ON YOU

[Backwoodsrider]

121. well that is some DU members opinion

But that's just another persons opinion. No I will stick with my beliefs for now and continue to gather data not opinions as these elections come closer. Either way I am looking forward to this one.

[MaggieD]

146. How the hell would anyone at DU know if he was wrong?

And how the hell do you not get kicked out of her for some of the things you post? His "opinion is worth shit?"

That is some fucked up stuff to post, IMO. I bet you would not have the balls to say that to someone's face. Keyboard commando.

[MADem]

87. Won't happen. Sanders is vying for the Democratic nomination.

He's not running for the nomination of the Democratic Socialist Party, or the Socialist Democrat party, or the Independent Party. When he doesn't win sufficient delegates to support his nomination by the Democratic Party, he will be done with the process. He won't mount a third party campaign. He's airing his grievances under the tent of, and through the grace and auspices of, the party with which he caucuses in the Senate.

[Nite Owl]

89. Bernie has said he won't run

as an independant. He has never run a negative as and won't do it now. He has as much right to be in the primary and debates as anyone else. The party needs this debate and if Hillary isn't up to it she shouldn't be President. The biggest thing she has to fear is she might be forced to take stand on issues which will be good for us because she evades an answer to anything.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

93. The "Nader Gave Bush the Election" is hogwash.

The whole theory is based on "maybe". "Maybe" they would have voted for Gore if Nader wasn't on the ticket."

Or, maybe they wouldn't.

Maybe they'd have sat it out.

Maybe they'd have found another Leftist on the ballot.

Maybe they would have written one in.

[MaggieD]

145. There is no maybe about it

And he did it deliberately. He SAID he was running to get 5% of the vote so that the Green party would be eligible for public campaign funding. He claimed to big donors that he would not run in swing states, and that his only objective was to elevate a third party.

But instead of campaigning in blue states where he could have convinced people to throw their vote to him to achieve that objective, he focused on swing states in order to play the spoiler. He got 2.47% of the vote instead, but he achieved his goal of punishing the Democrats over his snit with them.

Even his own staffers said he was a dick for doing that. He screwed over the Green party too.

[MrMickeysMom]

192. +1

This is getting rather old, but necessary to point this out.

[Scootaloo]

95. You really don't have any idea what you're talking about

But congratulations on surviving past 100 posts. Usually MIRT catches you guys before then. oh well.

[Snotcicles]

105. Their just slow. lol. nt

[Zenlitened]

128. I don't think MIRT can act on a poster here since 2008...

...even if all but nine of his 100+ posts have come in just the past 90 days.

[Maedhros]

200. The strategy was outlined in some of the material leaked by Snowden.

Create a horde of user names at targeted sites, let them age, then use them for propaganda purposes.

[Zenlitened]

235. Was it really? I guess that'd explain...

...why U.S. "Intelligence" is so tragically inept so often.

Never occurred to these Colonel Flagg impersonators that their own user stats would make them screamingly obvious? Great plan!

"You're not smart, you're dumb! And you've met your match in me!"

[riqster]

96. Crap. Sanders is running for the Dem nomination.

Oh, and fuck Nader gently with a chainsaw.

[karynnj]

98. Not the same at all - Nader ran in the general election against Gore, Sanders is running against her

in the primaries.

I suggest that you consider that it is entirely likely that HRC easily wins the primary. If she doesn't, it suggests that Sanders is a better stronger candidate than most think ... or ... HRC is not the greatest candidate ever. It is unprecedented that someone who is neither President or VP is as dominant a candidate this far before the primary.

Given the silver platter that she is being handed the nomination on, it is pretty unseemly for you to argue that no one - no matter how unlikely to beat us -- should run against her.

In fact, the analog that makes sense is that Sanders is the 2016 Bill Bradley, who ran against Gore in the primaries.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. This thread already has one hundred responses...

SMH

[Maedhros]

102. Thank you for your "concern."

/ignore list.

[peacebird]

188. This OP means Bernie's populist record and message must really be spooking HRC's supporters, eh?

[Maedhros]

195. This week has seen a deluge of low-post-count users posting ridiculously uninformed nonsense

in support of the TPP or against Bernie.

One was so stupid as to claim that the effort to stop Fast Track was a devious Congressional plot to keep us from learning what's in the TPP!

[hrmjustin]

103. Sanders said he would support the Democratic Nominee if he is not the winner.

Not the same thing.

[JHB]

122. You may find this information useful...

Last edited Wed May 13, 2015, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.lwvka.org/guideP06/primaryvgeneral.html

The Difference Between a Primary and
a General Election

A primary election is held by the political parties to select their nominees for the offices to be elected at the upcoming general election. In a primary, Republicans run against Republicans and Democrats run against other Democrats. And, of course, if other parties qualify to appear on the primary ballot, their candidates run against each other as well. In a primary, you may vote on only one party’s candidates. You cannot split your ballot between the various political parties. A primary election may also be held for nonpartisan races in order to narrow the number of candidates for the general election.

A general election is between party nominees and any candidates without political party affiliation. The general election determines which candidates will occupy the office that is up for election. Statewide ballot proposals also appear on the general election ballot.

Shorter version: they are two separate elections, the first deciding who is run in the second. Your entire argument springs from not understanding that important difference.

Breathe deep, drink some herbal tea, or booze, or whatever helps you calm down and relax.

[Goblinmonger]

127. Can we at least have ONE primary before we crown Hillary queen?

Please?

[Vincardog]

129. Bernie has been attacking the right for 40 years. He has not changed, But continue with your delusion.

[TheNutcracker]

130. When they actually counted the ballots, GORE WON. It was stolen in fla that time, ohio in 04

[truebluegreen]

131. Oh, bullshit. Give it a rest.

[jwirr]

133. Bernie has already said he will not run as a spoiler. I beleive him. To help an R beat the

Democratic candidate is the last thing he would want. The post and speeches that Bernie is giving are not new - they are things he has been proposing for years.

[MaggieD]

148. Did you believe Ralph when he said it?

I'd believe him if he would change the (I) to a (D), but I gotta think there is some reason he won't.

[Backwoodsrider]

153. yes it is odd he hasnt changed partys yet

I am really curious now wonder what hes doing.

I think a lot is going to become clearer when the actual election starts.

[jwirr]

172. In Vermont no one indicates a party preference when they register to vote? We did not question

Howard Dean when he ran - why Bernie. He wants to be in the Democratic debates and the DNC has already acknowledged that he is going to be.

[MaggieD]

186. Howard Dean called himself a Democrat

Bernie calls himself an Independent. Case closed. All you need to do is look at the initial after the name. The candidate determines that. Has nothing to do with voter registration requirements in Vermont. Patrick Leahy has made it clear (with the (D) after his name) that he has been a Democrat for DECADES. Same with Howard Dean.

[jwirr]

171. Wake up Maggie the DNR sent all of us a letter telling about our new candidate. What makes you

think he won't. Because his state does not fit your idea of registering to vote? There are other states that register just like Vermont and no one questions their party?

[MaggieD]

179. If you mean the DNC, he is useful to them

Has nothing to do with Vermont registration rules. That is a well debunked strawman. He bills himself as an Independent, regardless of the fact that Vermont does not register voters as affiliated with a party.

Every time a Bernie supporter brings up Vermont voter registration rules it makes me realize they have no clue what they are talking about in regards to party identification by a candidate. Patrick Leahy has identified as a Democrat for decades. Bernie is an independent, not a Democrat. Watch what politicians do, not what they say. Sanders is not identifying himself as a Democrat for a reason.

[jwirr]

193. Hmm. So I am not a Democrat? What is it we are supposed to do to prove it to you? In my state

of MN I register to vote and indicate the Democratic Party as my party but that does not mean a damned thing because it is the gateway into the Democratic primary. Says nothing about what I really think. Just which primary I want to vote in.

Likewise in Iowa where I grew up I registered R because the primaries was and I think still is where the local officials were elected. They ran unopposed in the general election so us Democrats wanted to vote in their primary. My grandfather - the democrat - ran for sheriff in the R primary. He lost by one vote.

You want me to watch what they do? Fine I see Bernie siding with the people for the last 40 years. That is what he believes in and that is what he has done.

[MaggieD]

207. You're a voter - he's a candidate

His deal has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with voter registration laws. It's sad Bernie supporters cannot understand such a simple concept.

[backscatter712]

134. The stupid is strong in this one.

I'll explain it again, and I'll try to use small words so even you can understand.

Sanders is running as a Democrat.

Can you say "Democrat"? Very good. I knew you could.

Bernie and Hillary are running in a primary election. Can you say "primary"? Very good.

Do you know the difference between a primary election and a general election?

Listen closely, children.

A primary election is when members of the same party run to be the party nominee.

A general election is where the nominees, that won the primary run against each other to win the presidency.

Now children, here's the trick. How can you spoil a general election if you were eliminated in the primary?

Take your time. I know, this is difficult material for those of your intellect...

[MaggieD]

150. If he is running "as a Democrat"

Why does he bill himself as an independent. Notice the (I) after his name? That doesn't stand for Democrat. I don't think the poster you are addressing is the one lacking in intellect.

[jwirr]

173. He was elected as an independent in Vermont. He has changed parties but that election does not

change. These are really stupid arguments - are you this afraid Hillary is not going to win?

[MaggieD]

174. Then why is he still adverstising himself as an Independent?

Here is what EVERYONE needs to understand about politicians. Don't judge them by what they say, judge them by what they DO.

[jwirr]

176. How is he advertising himself as an independent?

[MaggieD]

182. Inform yourself - I can help

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/

[jwirr]

197. He IS the Independent senator from Vermont. That is his designation from the last election. It will

be his designation until the next election. He has officially declared himself as a candidate of the Democratic party. I you don't want it that way that is fine but I do not agree.

Do you realize that this kind of attack are actually hurting your candidate? You are not winning hearts and minds for Hillary.

[MaggieD]

199. He hasn't changed that

Don't be gullible. There is a reason for that.

[Warren DeMontague]

247. There's no quotes around that. He will be participating in the Democratic primary process, and if he

Wins he will be nominated at our convention and go on the top of our ticket.

Hillary's campaign seems to understand and accept this, not sure why her supporters can't.

[bowens43]

139. hillary isnt the best we have

if she is , we deserve to lose.......

if bernie is on the ballot he has my vote

[SoCalNative]

143. He'll be neutralized

long before that happens.

[H2O Man]

147. Legalize Lonnie Anderson's Hair!!!!!!!

[ucrdem]

149. He's promised to run as a Democrat, to run a clean campaign,

and to not run on a third-party ticket if he loses the primary. So far he hasn't registered as a Democrat in any state that I'm aware of and he's attacked Obama on the TPP and the Clintons on their foundation funding i.e. Clinton Cash baloney.

That means he hasn't kept his first two promises, and there's no guarantee enforceable or otherwise that he'll keep the third. This appears to me to be a problem but good luck getting anyone to acknowledge it.

[PeteSelman]

152. So, he'll have no effect then.

I'd rather Bernie win outright.

[KansDem]

157. As far as I can ascertain, Nader was never elected to public office. Sanders, on the other hand...

...has served as mayor, US representative, and US senator. Simply stated, Sanders is electable.

I think that pretty much discounts your thesis.

[MaggieD]

160. In Vermont

[KansDem]

161. In 2011, he was ranked third in popularity among US senators

Polling conducted in August 2011 by Public Policy Polling found that Sanders's approval rating was 67% and his disapproval rating 28%, making him then the third-most popular senator in the country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

I think that makes him very electable.

[MaggieD]

162. In Vermont

[HooptieWagon]

164. Sanders not running a third party campaign in GE.

He's running against HRC in the Democratic Primaries. So it's quite impossible for him to "pull a Nader". Your concern is noted.

[HereSince1628]

165. So help me out here...As I remember it, Party Unity My ASS was a HRC supporter thing...

Much more recent than Nader, and ACTUALLY about behavior associated with primary campaigns.

If the heats to much...leave the kitchen and allow the sausage making to proceed...

[Autumn]

166. I am telling you. Bernie is running as a Democrat

I know that must hurt but there it is. Running as a Democrat Bernie is no Nader.

[MaggieD]

175. Then why is he still adverstising himself as an Independent?

How come no Bernie supporter can respond to that?

[Autumn]

178. You should ask him that. I know why I don't consider myself a democrat but

I would never presume to answer for Bernie Sanders who is running as a Democrat.

[MaggieD]

181. I don't need to ask him - I can see he isn't a Democrat

If he was a Democrat he would change his advertising from (I) to (D). It's pretty clear.

If you are not a Democrat you should not be posting here. This is DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. If you do not support Democrats you are violating the TOS.

[Autumn]

189. The TOS does not say one must be a Democrat to post here. I do support a Democrat.

Bernie Sanders. A candidate who is running as a Democrat. I also support other Democrats, but there is no requirement that I like them all.

[MaggieD]

204. Sure it does

It says you have to support Democrats. If you're still posting anti-HRC shit or advocating for a non-Dem when the nominee is decided you will be banned. Count on it. In the meantime they may tolerate you but that "I'm not a Democrat" shit will not fly during election season.

[Autumn]

219. You and my dearest friend have that same problem. You change some words

and overlook others that don't fit your narrative.
From your post

If you are not a Democrat you should not be posting here.

I do support Democrats, but I don't have to support Hillary at this time, not until and if she wins the nomination. At this time I am very much in line with the TOS, I am supporting a candidate who is running as a Democrat for the office of the Presidency. As for the

"I'm not a Democrat" shit

many here are not Democrats, including one of the founders of our site and all our other beloved friends from other countries. By the way just an FYI Democrats.org disagrees with you.

[MaggieD]

220. I didn't change any words of yours

You did.

[Autumn]

224. Do you deny that you said "If you are not a Democrat you should not be posting here"?

It's there in black and white in your post my friend.

[MaggieD]

225. You said "I know why I don't consider myself a democrat"

I did not change your words. Stop trying to claim I did. They are the subject header of your post.

[Autumn]

230. It's not required that I be a Democrat. It is required I support Democrats

which I do. Those are my words I changed nothing and I stand by them my friend. Your words are there. But I'm tired of this silliness and I will just say have a good evening and by that I mean have a good evening.

[MaggieD]

215. Your time here is limited, apparently

Don't be a wingnut (right-wing or extreme-fringe).

Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here. Neither are certain extreme-fringe left-wingers, including advocates of violent political/social change, hard-line communists, terrorist-apologists, America-haters, kooks, crackpots, LaRouchies, and the like.

Vote for Democrats.

Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground.

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. Even more silliness

Given the FEC filing and the rest of the things you still refuse to acknowledge, Don't worry, I will not waste another afternoon with you.

Just wanted to let you know, my watch is running on time. Thanks.

[MaggieD]

218. So why is he still advertising as an Independent (I)

Got an answer for that? None of his other supporters do, as far as I can tell? Are you going to believe what he says when it is the opposite of what he does? LOL!

[nadinbrzezinski]

222. Thanks for the time correction, My watch

is indeed running on time

[Autumn]

223. I am going to vote for the Democrat, I donate money to his campaign monthly and will

work to nominate and elect Bernie Sanders.

Surely you are not implying that Bernie Sanders who is running as a Democratic candidate is a Teabagging, Neo-con, Dittohead, Paulits, Freeper, Birther,right-winger, extreme-fringe left-winger,an advocate of violent political/social change, a hard-line communist, a terrorist-apologist America-hateing LaRouchie kook are you?

And I would in no circumstance advocate in favor of a republican nominee and I am not at all in favor of third-party spoiler candidates .

[H2O Man]

211. silly

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. Yup

but entertaining at this point.

I also get to check to see if my watch is running correctly

[Bluenorthwest]

183. Maggie, this is what it says on the first page at Democrats.org the actual Party's actual website:

"Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders are officially in the presidential race. If you’re in too, add your name to make sure we elect a Democrat in 2016."
http://www.democrats.org/

Not sure what more can be said. Not sure who you want to hear it from.

[MaggieD]

187. So what?

He is useful to them. He still isn't claiming to be a Democrat.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/

[Bluenorthwest]

194. So you think the Democratic Party is promoting as a Democratic candidate a person who is not in fact

a Democrat?
I'm not willing to agree with you that your opinion of who is a Democrat is more valid than that of the Democratic Party itself.

[MaggieD]

201. I do. He is useful

Democrats.org is not "the rest of the Democratic Party." It's a political machine that will use every advantage it has, but only as long as it remains an advantage to the front runner. Sorry to break it to you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. take my word

you are wasting your time with this individual. She has been told this MANY, MANY, MANY times. At this point the ignorance is willful.

[Bluenorthwest]

196. I mean, Democrats.org for crying out loud, first page. Hillary and Bernie. Obtuse is too kind a word

for this material.

[nadinbrzezinski]

198. I had the exact same discussion

I added the link to the VT democrats as well, Above somebody posted the FEC filing. Obtuse, you are too kind.

[cantbeserious]

177. Ever More Fear Mongering

eom

[olddots]

180. OY !!!!!!!

we really need an OY smiley here .

[Rex]

202. Well at least you post this in good faith, in order to unify DU further. nt

nt

[JEB]

203. Or Hillary might do to Sanders...

[John Poet]

252. I guess I should make this clarification.

All those times when I said,
"Say NO To JEB",
I was not referring to you.

[JEB]

253. Thank you. So far I've resisted changing my handle.

[treestar]

206. I doubt he could get as many votes as Nader

Not enough to make a dent.

[cali]

209. as he's not running in the general election

that's entirely academic. Duh

[JEB]

254. I doubt that Hillary will get as many votes as Gore did.

[Spider Jerusalem]

212. Not unless he runs as an independent if he doesn't get the nomination!

Which he's said he won't do. So this entire post is nonsense.

[ucrdem]

226. That's fine if you take him at his word.

But some of us would like more guarantees than a politician's word, particularly if the politician isn't a Democrat.

[G_j]

243. well, "some of us" seems to be but a handful..

People familiar with Sanders through the years tend to believe him. He reputation for honesty is well known. Don't believe him, clutch those pearls. It's doesn't really matter.

[ucrdem]

221. Oddly enough the members who berate us for trusting a twice-elected Dem pres

are now berating us for not trusting a pol who's never been a Democrat a day in his life. Hmm.

[DonCoquixote]

234. no no and no

If bernioe was going to do that, he would do what nader did, which was run as a THIRD PARTY candidiate. he is working FROM WITHIN, to change, and some do not like that because they wanted zero room for anybody to the left of Hillary.

[Blue_In_AK]

236. One word...

Primary.

[Warren DeMontague]

238. Nader wasn't running as a Democrat.

We're going to have a primary process. I know that pisses some people off.

[leveymg]

239. When Hillary is nominated and defeated, because she's a tainted candidate, guess who gets blamed?

The OP just described the meme, perfectly. Blame the disloyal Left. It's inevitable, as is Hillary's nomination. So we are told, again. Better hope that's wrong, again.

[TransitJohn]

241. It's bush league

psych out stuff. Laughable, man.

[magical thyme]

256. Replace "Gore" with "Obama" and "2000" with "2008"

there; fixed it.

[Vinca]

258. No he won't. He's running as a Democratic candidate.

Whoever wins the Democratic primary will be our candidate. Nader ran on a third party ticket and was a spoiler. Bernie is well aware of it and has said as much. He had the option to run as an Independent rather than a Democrat and chose Dems to avoid the Nader situation.

[LWolf]

259. I am telling you that

a whole bunch of us were there; that's how DU got started, and it's not ancient history. And you are just wrong.

I'm also telling you, as a Gore voter, that Nader didn't cost Gore the election. Election fraud did that.

Nader also didn't run as a Democrat. He got those votes in the GE. If Democratic voters don't nominate Sanders, he won't be taking any votes away from HRC. If she loses votes, it will be because of her corporate strings, not because her primary opponent got people excited about participating.

What's motivating Sanders? The exact same thing that has motivated his political career since his early years. Why did he jump in now? He waited to see if a credible opponent for HRC would...when they didn't, he announced, and gave a whole bunch of Democrats a reason to care and participate in the process.

Sanders isn't going to take my vote away from HRC in the General Election. They won't be running against each other. He is going to make sure that I'm engaged and active at least until the Democratic Convention.

[roody]

261. Gore won, but you do not live in a democracy.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

262. Backwood, many Hillary supporters have you on ignore. I know this to be fact because...

every time I start a thread about those of you who use Fox News tactics againsst Apocalypse Bernie, every time!, the response is uniform...

Huh? I've never seen this (from Hillary supporters), but there are tons of threads like this from Bernie's supporters.

I've said all along, there is a rational base of Hillary supporters here. Then there's her DEFCON 1 Base, the former have the latter on ignore. I know they have you on ignore, because they'll never see this thread.