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bigtree

(85,919 posts)
Fri May 1, 2015, 01:50 PM May 2015

Five of the six officers charged in the death of Freddie Gray are now in police custody

...according to Baltimore mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake.

Democracy Now! ?@democracynow 10m10 minutes ago
Breaking: Five Baltimore police officers now in custody in #FreddieGray case. http://ow.ly/MopBZ


Notorious TSF ?@MsFlowersTweets 59s59 seconds ago
6 Officers must go through central booking.... #BalitmoreUprising #BlackSpring http://wpo.st/s3LF0


NPR News ?@nprnews 3m3 minutes ago
Baltimore Mayor: 'No One Is Above The Law In Our City' http://n.pr/1HYAeT1


50 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Five of the six officers charged in the death of Freddie Gray are now in police custody (Original Post) bigtree May 2015 OP
K & R. n/t FSogol May 2015 #1
Wonder where the Driver is...the only one who did not file a report and charged with Depraved Heart libdem4life May 2015 #2
At an undisclosed location? Koinos May 2015 #5
While he may be a sociopath, Ms. Toad May 2015 #15
Depraved Heart Murder/Manslaughter is not a medical diagnosis. Correct. libdem4life May 2015 #18
You're playing a little loose with the term mens rea there. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #19
And I hope they aren't overcharging him B2G May 2015 #25
I somewhat disagree in this case. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #27
Yes, but were any of those drivers convicted of the same charge? B2G May 2015 #28
Probably not, since all I know about were civil cases, not criminal prosecutions. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #32
Oh FFS, you don't need to be a mental giant to understand that not giving a shit when a prisoner libdem4life May 2015 #43
I was actually replying to MsToad, who DID use the term, and Jackpine Radical May 2015 #45
Not so much. Ms. Toad May 2015 #46
Thanks for the clarification. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #48
Here's a bit more (just because I went to find it for another thread) Ms. Toad May 2015 #49
Thank you. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #50
I still can't believe it BrotherIvan May 2015 #3
"I thought they were going to walk." workinclasszero May 2015 #4
It's rare, but sometimes it happens. malthaussen May 2015 #7
Don't get me wrong workinclasszero May 2015 #10
Getting charges is one step in the right direction. MH1 May 2015 #11
When this goes to trial - hifiguy May 2015 #14
You're right. You know, most prosecutors deal most of the time Jackpine Radical May 2015 #23
You're right, they still could BrotherIvan May 2015 #12
Very few, but airc, in Rodney King, there was some jail time served but only after the Feds got sabrina 1 May 2015 #33
I think the tide is going to start turning... awoke_in_2003 May 2015 #36
I can't imagine why you thought they would walk. Enthusiast May 2015 #21
Let's hope this is some kind of wake-up call for cops all across the country. Vinca May 2015 #6
Balt. FOP proved that will not happen. ChairmanAgnostic May 2015 #17
If these thugs get real prison time... awoke_in_2003 May 2015 #37
Still have to get a jury to convict davidn3600 May 2015 #44
Gee, I hope they didn't get a rough ride in the paddy wagon. Comrade Grumpy May 2015 #8
Exactly what I was going to say underpants May 2015 #29
The public is a little safer now. But where is #6? MoonRiver May 2015 #9
Are their spines intact? hootinholler May 2015 #13
This on the heels of the police declaring he inflicted his own injuries. AtomicKitten May 2015 #16
K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast May 2015 #20
Oh, but riots don't work! Peaceful protest is the only way! Downtown Hound May 2015 #22
I think your suggestion is offensive. sybylla May 2015 #31
I really don't give a shit if you find it offensive Downtown Hound May 2015 #42
K&R Solly Mack May 2015 #24
good news happy may day captainarizona May 2015 #26
Great news! Sissyk May 2015 #30
This weeks fiasco could have been avoided imthevicar May 2015 #34
State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby: Cha May 2015 #35
Hell... awoke_in_2003 May 2015 #38
Yeah, I thought it was pretty potent. Cha May 2015 #39
perfect bigtree May 2015 #40
You're welcome, bigtree Cha May 2015 #41
A brilliant prosecutor. joshcryer May 2015 #47
 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
2. Wonder where the Driver is...the only one who did not file a report and charged with Depraved Heart
Fri May 1, 2015, 01:58 PM
May 2015

charges. That is so heavy...pretty much means a sociopath.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
15. While he may be a sociopath,
Fri May 1, 2015, 03:13 PM
May 2015

depraved heart is not a medical diagnosis of sociopath. It is a description of his mens rea (mental state) on that day in that particular action.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
18. Depraved Heart Murder/Manslaughter is not a medical diagnosis. Correct.
Fri May 1, 2015, 03:37 PM
May 2015

It is just one charge short of premeditated murder.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, as did I.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
19. You're playing a little loose with the term mens rea there.
Fri May 1, 2015, 03:47 PM
May 2015

Specifically, mens rea refers to the mindstate required for intentionally commiting an offense. In order to claim intentional homicide, the prosecutor would have to establish mens rea.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
28. Yes, but were any of those drivers convicted of the same charge?
Fri May 1, 2015, 04:07 PM
May 2015

It could very well be they were, but your link doesn't say.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
32. Probably not, since all I know about were civil cases, not criminal prosecutions.
Fri May 1, 2015, 04:27 PM
May 2015

Last edited Fri May 1, 2015, 09:45 PM - Edit history (1)

My point is that the "rough ride" is a method that was locally known to produce injury and death in those subjected to it, it had done so before, there had been huge cash payouts, the cops should have known about the possible consequences. I think it would be pretty hard to convince a jury that they did not knowingly engage in reckless behavior intended to inflict injury on the victim. Had they actually set out with the intention of killing him, it would have been 1º murder.

Remember that the arrest was improper, and was itself a criminal act. The situation is analogous to someone who maliciously beats another person with intent to cause severe injury, but who ends up killing his victim. Such a case would fall under the "depraved heart" provision of the murder statutes.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
43. Oh FFS, you don't need to be a mental giant to understand that not giving a shit when a prisoner
Fri May 1, 2015, 08:25 PM
May 2015

is injured and possibly dying...not giving medical care...willing to break the law...and you think this is the first time under the pressure of the moment? I didn't use the term "mens rea" ... I used the term Sociopath. And no, not as a professional diagnosis. but as a sociological observation and knowledge of these events. Good god, the justification is stunning.

Most criminals "act as if" they are sociopathic. That's why we put them away...they don't play nice with polite society.

so·ci·o·path
[soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-]
NOUN [PSYCHIATRY.]
1.
a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

sociopath
A person with antisocial personality disorder. Probably the most widely recognized personality disorder. A sociopath is often well liked because of their charm and high charisma, but they do not usually care about other people. They think mainly of themselves and often blame others for the things that they do. They have a complete disregard for rules and lie constantly. They seldom feel guilt or learn from punishments. Though some sociopaths have become murders, most reveal their sociopathy through less deadly and sensational means.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
45. I was actually replying to MsToad, who DID use the term, and
Fri May 1, 2015, 09:24 PM
May 2015

that was all I was talking about. Sorry about the misplaced remark.

And it's just as well you didn't use the term "sociopath" as a "professional diagnosis" because it doesn't exist as a professional diagnosis. It's neither in the DSMIV-TR or 5 nor ICD9 or 10. And, while it may be conceptually somewhat similar to ASPD, it is not correct to confuse the two as your offered definition does. ASPD is a proper diagnostic category, while "sociopath" is not, and has no standardized definition.

Neither is the term "psychopath" in any currently recognized diagnostic lexicon, although it has been (variously) operationalized by Hare's PCL-R, the PPI-R, and the lesser-known Levenson Psychopathy scale. There is, by the way, an ongoing and rather hot scientific debate on the factor structure of psychopathy (conceived as a trait complex rather than as a disorder). The Hare, for example, seems to break down into 2 major components, each of which has 2 sub-factors, while Lilienfeld's PPI seems to have a 3-factor structure.

All of that is by way of suggesting that, after a couple of decades as a criminal forensic psychologist, having conducted psychological evaluations of something more than 2500 criminals and criminal defendants, I may not be entirely in need of a refresher on a topic I have testified about as an expert in several hundred cases. In fact, I kinda resent it.

And incidentally, I did not mean to suggest that there was no mens rea on the part of the cops in that case. As I have argued at some length elsewhere (see 32 above), I think the cops are fully culpable, knew what they were doing, and at least the driver, surely at least some of the others, and maybe all of them completely meet the "depraved heart" test. Only the fact that they used a method that does not guarantee a kill saves them from 1º murder charges.

Verstanden?



Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
46. Not so much.
Sat May 2, 2015, 03:29 AM
May 2015

mens rea refers to the mental state necessary to establish the commission of a particular crime. At common law, the mens rea for the crime charged is depraved heart. Under the Model Penal Code the mens rea for the equivalent crime is recklessly under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.

The Maryland charging documents apparently use the term depraved heart murder even though that term does not appear in the statutes - but it appears to refer to the equivalent of the model penal code noted above. So - fast and loose only to the extent that I referred to the common law mens rea since that what the crime charged, rather then looking up the statute to retrieve the equivalent staututory mens rea.

My point is that depraved heart (or recklessly under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life) is the mindset of the person as he was committing a particular crime - not a label for his pervasive mental state.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
49. Here's a bit more (just because I went to find it for another thread)
Sat May 2, 2015, 12:13 PM
May 2015

The malevolent states of mind that qualify are: (1) the intent to kill, (2) the intent to do grievous bodily harm, (3) the intent to do an act under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life (depraved heart), or (4) the intent to commit a dangerous felony. Id. The General Assembly has determined that certain murders qualify as murder in the first degree, such as murders committed in the perpetration of enumerated felonies or any kind of willful, deliberate and premeditated killing. See Maryland Code, Article 27 §§ 407—410 (1957, 1996 Repl.Vol.) (setting forth the various circumstances in which a murder will be classified as murder in the first degree). Second-degree murder includes all other types of murder. See Code, Art. 27 § 411 (“All other kinds of murder shall be deemed murder in the second degree.”).

Harrison v. State, 382 Md. 477 (2004)

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
4. "I thought they were going to walk."
Fri May 1, 2015, 02:07 PM
May 2015

They still might after the trial.

Have any cops actually went to prison for crimes like these yet?

Having said that, thank God for State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby!

malthaussen

(17,066 posts)
7. It's rare, but sometimes it happens.
Fri May 1, 2015, 02:10 PM
May 2015

Just bringing it to the point of charging them is a minor miracle. Give the woman time.

-- Mal

MH1

(17,537 posts)
11. Getting charges is one step in the right direction.
Fri May 1, 2015, 02:17 PM
May 2015

Getting convictions will be the next.

I suspect some of the worst charges might be pled down.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
14. When this goes to trial -
Fri May 1, 2015, 02:48 PM
May 2015

and I think it will - the defense will do its damndest to pack the jury with bigots. And you will hear so much horseshit about the stress on kkkops and that they can't be blamed for their actions that it could fill an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

The prosecution will really have to be on their toes to get a clean jury.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
23. You're right. You know, most prosecutors deal most of the time
Fri May 1, 2015, 03:51 PM
May 2015

with indigent defendants who can't afford to put up a vigorous defense, so getting convictions is pretty easy, especially with the police trained to over-charge to give the prosecutors plenty of bargaining power for plea bargains when they know they couldn't convict.

But in this case, the police union & maybe the city will be pouring money into the defense. This will get very interesting.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
12. You're right, they still could
Fri May 1, 2015, 02:21 PM
May 2015

But the attitude of Ms. Mosby in this video signals to me that this is not another Ferguson. Night and day.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
33. Very few, but airc, in Rodney King, there was some jail time served but only after the Feds got
Fri May 1, 2015, 04:31 PM
May 2015

involved, after it looked like no charges would be filed, locally. If I'm remembering correctly.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
36. I think the tide is going to start turning...
Fri May 1, 2015, 04:50 PM
May 2015

smart phones are going to start unraveling things (I hope)

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
44. Still have to get a jury to convict
Fri May 1, 2015, 08:46 PM
May 2015

Bringing charges is only the first step. All it takes is a couple racists on a jury to blow it all up.

Plus juries tend to like cops. When a cop goes on a witness stand and testifies, juries pay a lot of attention to that. We are raised as children to respect authority. We are raised to trust and respect the police. Unfortunately, Freedie Gray isn't here to give his side of the story.

If the jury acquits, we are back to square one...

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
20. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!
Fri May 1, 2015, 03:48 PM
May 2015

This action is the only possible way to stop these unwarranted attacks on defenseless citizens.

Downtown Hound

(12,618 posts)
22. Oh, but riots don't work! Peaceful protest is the only way!
Fri May 1, 2015, 03:50 PM
May 2015

They're only hurting their own cause! When you choose violence, the system wins!

Or, so I've hear from just about every corporate media outlet and from many DU'ers. Sorry little children, sometimes, violence is the ONLY thing that works. Please look me in the eye and tell me this would have happened if Baltimore hadn't erupted. Please do. I dare you...

sybylla

(8,464 posts)
31. I think your suggestion is offensive.
Fri May 1, 2015, 04:24 PM
May 2015

And it calls into question the intelligence and motives of the AG.

While protests did a lot to shine a light on terrible police practices and may have kept Locals in power from burying the truth and more in Baltimore, the suggestion that the AG would have done any differently if the protests never took place is more than an insult.

To claim that riots were the sole implement by which the charges were made is lunacy at its highest. But that never stopped crazy people from screaming at the moon before.

Downtown Hound

(12,618 posts)
42. I really don't give a shit if you find it offensive
Fri May 1, 2015, 06:19 PM
May 2015

Last edited Fri May 1, 2015, 09:10 PM - Edit history (1)

What I find offensive is that despite police getting away with murder time and again people like you still think you hold the key to resistance and that your way is the only way. Every time there has been a riot in response to police criminality, there has been positive response to it in that the government took action against the police. Los Angeles 1992, the guy executed on BART by Oakland police, the 60's when segregation finally came down, and now this. Every time people have "behaved" and gone the lawful route the pigs got away with it. Every time they rose up and fucked some shit up the cops got charged.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that's a coincidence then go ahead. I'll stick to reality.

 

captainarizona

(363 posts)
26. good news happy may day
Fri May 1, 2015, 03:55 PM
May 2015

Keep the demonstrations going to keep up the pressure. Every trigger happy cop should start working thinking what happens to me if I shoot a 12 year old black child playing in a park. Answer the same thing that would happen to him if he shoots a 12 year old white child playing in a park. Happy may day everyone!

 

imthevicar

(811 posts)
34. This weeks fiasco could have been avoided
Fri May 1, 2015, 04:34 PM
May 2015

if the peaceful protest were heard! so Now I see what has to be done for the PTB to Listen. they need to FEAR the people. or else it's just, "Oh look how cute, a peaceful hippy type protest THAT's nice." When you flip over cars and burn down businesses, and stone cops, all of the sudden it's, "HOLY SHIT we need to do something! the people are pissed."
WHY I ask, does it have to come to this. why don't they JUST EFIN LISTEN!

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