General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAs an avid baseball fan, I expect to someday see female players and coaches
alongside male players and coaches in my lifetime.
and I think the game will be better than ever for it.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)uppityperson
(115,681 posts)philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Females just don't have the strength and muscle mass to compete with men in a sport like baseball. Its an inconvenient truth, but it is the truth.
Its not a matter of discrimination or segregation. Its a matter of ability.
Case in point.... do you know of any adult female who can throw a 95 mile per hour fastball?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Now how many World Series rings does he have?
He has 3.
And if Tim Lincecum can throw 95mph, then some percentage of females will be able to as well.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Baseball Reference says Timmy's 5'11" and a buck seventy and Romo's 5'10" and 185. Even by the funhouse mirror standards of press guide measurements (the ones that always said Sandoval was barely overweight) those are some tiny dudes. I know quite a few women who are taller, broader and more muscular than either one.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Someone with the strength of one of the Williams' sisters I'm sure could outpitch many, many male pitchers in baseball now.
All these people say things can't be done. They have no soul, I swear.
We already had a major league pitcher who had just one hand.
These people are always telling us things aren't going to happen. They want to convince us that more people being included is a bad thing.
History will remember them for the dinosaurs they are --if history remembers them at all.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Just as hiring Jackie Robinson became a business decision too good to pass up for the Dodgers, someday the same business decision will be too good to pass up in the form of a female player or coach.
And as many people decry it, many more will take notice and it will be the norm in a generation or two after that.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)That was a thing of beauty!
yuiyoshida
(41,869 posts)It certainly was
Reter
(2,188 posts)Martha Salazar (perhaps the best female heavyweight boxer in the world) can fight Vitali Klitschko. Just make sure the ambulance is ready after 10 seconds.
With that out of the way, it's not about sexism or being a dinosaur. As a video gamer, I would love to see Chun Li kicking guys asses in a Street Fighter tournament. But it's not gonna happen.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)but I'll bet she could take some of those ham-and-eggers who get thrown in there as opponents.
Ronda Rousey is a genuine badass, of that there is no doubt. She could have an average man screaming for his mother and begging for mercy in a matter of seconds. But I doubt she'd fare will against a male MMA fighter a weight class or two higher. And they don't have weight classes in baseball.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)I was an amatuer boxer. In the day, Rousey would lose a boxing match to me.
Mma, she would break my arm since I never learned that.
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)I had a retired pro wrestler / referee as a math teacher in 8th Grade. Coolest teacher I ever had (and not just because of the wrestlers and football players and civic leaders who would come speak to his classes).
Once, a student asked how he would do in a match against Muhammed Ali. He replied that in a boxing match, Ali would win, but if they went to the mat, "He's mine!".
I suspect it's pretty much the same thing. Toe to toe, pure boxing, Ronda's getting knocked out. Go to the mat and Laila is getting her arm put back in the socket.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)My kid sister is an amateur boxer. Put her up against a similarly sized dude and she'd not only hold her own, she'd almost certainly kick his ass (this is of course how she practices, as the world is not exactly awash in female boxers.) Women have higher pain tolerances and better endurance.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)imagine that.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)The same ones who always show up on any thread involving women to talk about how terrible women are and how any issues we might have (health care, pay disparity, sexism in the media or in language or public policy) are totally imaginary. But we're all supposed to not notice any sort of pattern there. Certainly we can't imply that they might have some kind of issues with women, that really hurts their very sensitive feefees.
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)No one has said that women's bodies are inferior or terrible. People have just pointed out that biologically, male and female bodies are different. Men are bigger, stronger, and faster, than women. Of course, that doesn't mean every man is bigger, or stronger, or faster, than every woman, but it does mean that the best players in sports where size, strength, and speed, are assets are going to be men.
All of our bodies are different. Having a body that is smaller, or weaker, or slower, (regardless of gender) than someone else's doesn't make that body inferior or terrible.
Reter
(2,188 posts)Post count when you disagree. As if I hate women, and 1,000 posts makes someone a real Democrat. I am a sports addict. Only one female has ever penetrated the four major sports, was Manon Rhéaume in the NHL. I wanted her to be a star, I really did. But she sadly wasn't.
The best bet is tennis. Serena Williams should openly challenge Novak Djokovic. That may not be probable, but at least she has a shot. MMA and boxing are impossible. And for the record I always play Street Fighter II as Chun Li.
Reter
(2,188 posts)Before you throw out insults, do some research. No one ever said your sister can't beat up average guys her weight. Clearly I was talking about professional vs. professional.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)i think his reported weight also includes the mound.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Hell, let's see Mo'ne Davis's pitch speed once she hits college/minor-league age.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)as long as I live, I will be happy.
Oh,
by the way
FUCK
THE
DODGERS
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,869 posts)Go Giants!!! (sorry, I couldn't contain myself )
yuiyoshida
(41,869 posts)You know there are some pretty amazing women in the sport of Kendo.
Fast and Strong.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)And that's an entirely different ball and pitching motion.
Put some promising young women through HS baseball programs and either college ball or the minor league system and we'll see. Anyhow even if no woman anywhere can throw 95 (keep in mind most major league pitchers can't either) there could certainly be women who were capable of pitching with lower velocity by emphasizing deception and location, just as any number of successful pitchers do, including former power pitchers who have lost some velocity to the aging process.
But we know women playing actual baseball can successfully strike out big league pitchers. Jackie Mitchell- all of seventeen years old no less- struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-woman-who-maybe-struck-out-babe-ruth-and-lou-gehrig-4759182/?no-ist That was long before the radar gun, but she struck out the best hitters of her day so I'd say her velocity was just fine.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)his movement was wicked, when he had control.
and when he did, he outpitched Justin Verlander and got a ring.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Bonus: Belt running awkwardly.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)oy.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)They're not blessed with an excess of run support, but somehow it seems to work.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)Years later, Joyce met a man who fished with Williams in the Florida Keys. The man said he had once asked Williams to name the toughest pitcher he ever faced. "And he said, you won't believe this, but it was a girl."
http://espn.go.com/espnw/news/article/6833700/best-ted-williams-ever-faced
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)Slowest 2008 FastballsPitcher Average
Fastball Speed
Chad Bradford, Orioles-Rays 79.6
Jamie Moyer, Phillies 81.2
Tom Glavine, Braves 82.1
Livan Hernandez, Twins-Rockies83.7
Greg Maddux, Padres-Dodgers 83.7
Doug Davis, Diamondbacks 84.6
Barry Zito, Giants84.9
Cla Meredith, Padres 85.1
R.A. Dickey, Mariners 85.1
Kenny Rogers, Tigers85.2
http://cyclonefanatic.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44587
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)I think it disproves that lightning velocity is the key to being a winning pitcher.
But even so, I have no doubt that there are or will be women strong enough and capable enough to pitch alongside men, not only based on technique, but based on speed as well.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Its stamina. Go ahead, throw an 80-mph pitch. Now do it 100 times in 2 1/2 hours.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Most women won't be able to.
But some men will be able to.
And some women will be able to.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Yes, women can run marathon's almost as fast as men. But they aren't as strong as men. Its just a biological fact.
Can the best woman baseball player be better than the average male. Absolutely.
Can the best woman baseball player compete with the very best baseball players in the world? Highly doubtful.
Your logic is equivalent to saying that someday you'll see a woman be able to compete with the likes of Usain Bolt in the 100 meter dash. Its not going to happen.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)next dumb question?
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Just one.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)There was the "League of Their Own" era and that's pretty much it. Stuck in the softball purgatory.
But there's nothing soft about that sport either, really. The current (as of 2012) speed record for women is 77 mph. Coming from 20 feet closer than baseball, I personally would not want to face that.
So fuck your fucking assumptions.
http://monicaabbott.com/monica-abbott-blog-new-speed-record-womens-fastpitch-77mph/
ProfessorGAC
(65,337 posts)I know it doesn't have a huge national following like MLB, but it's a perfectly good sport that requires a lot of skill, hand-eye coordination, and quickness. (It doesn't REQUIRE speed, but neither does baseball. That's a "nice to have"
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)It's not about whether softball is a fine game.
ProfessorGAC
(65,337 posts)There's an actual movement of young women who'd rather be playing regular baseball? Where did that information come from? How representative is the data?
I think i would have liked to have played lacrosse, except my high school could not have possibly supported a lacrosse team. So, i played basketball and golf. Was i in purgatory? No.
Or, are you perhaps going over the wall with your point?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)if a woman is good enough to play or manage for a team, she should be able to.
i don't care whether 1 person supports the idea or 1 billion people support the idea.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Their ticket sales and TV concessions would skyrocket just from the novelty of it. So what's stopping female players, other than capability? The franchises have a responsibility to field the absolute best team they can within their budget. I don't think they would reject a superior player in favor of an inferior one simply based on whether or not they were born with a penis.
ProfessorGAC
(65,337 posts)All i asked was why softball is purgatory. Perfectly good game. I didn't say, nor did i see anyone else say, that women SHOULDN'T play baseball if they're good enough. I just wanted to know why softball is purgatory, rather than appreciating it for what it is.
I still don't understand how an alternative sport is purgatory, if there is not a declared mandate that a young woman who's good enough to play major level baseball cannot.
To my knowledge, the mandate doesn't exist.
ProfessorGAC
(65,337 posts)Who is saying they can't?
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Not having a lacrosse team at your high school <> being told that people of your gender can't be good at lacrosse so they should go play basketball or golf.
ProfessorGAC
(65,337 posts)That wasn't what the thread is about. You're the only one saying it.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Maddux could knock the wings off a fly with his control, and that is a very rare thing, even among MLB pitchers.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I'm not sure how many of those would have pitched those speeds at the beginning.
One is a knuckleballer and at least one is a sidearm pitcher.
we can do it
(12,210 posts)linuxman
(2,337 posts)Genetics are genetics. The men who compete in the sport can do so because they are at the top of their fitness game. They can hit harder, sprint quicker, and pitch faster. There may be some anomalous women out there who have the genetic predisposition to achieve the physical traits which allow them to perform at MLB levels, but the chances that such an anomalous person also pursued a career track into pro baseball over the years would make the chances of one reaching the league slim to none.
The Olympics aren't split by sex to double the medals. They are split because it wouldn't be fair to women otherwise.
I see no reason why they may not one day coach a team, though pro-league coaches generally played in the league at some point in the past.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)the limitation is your thinking.
as soon as you figure out why you can't imagine it happening, you'll realize there is more limitation in your mind than in the female body.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)The two teams with the least power made it to the world series, after all.
I swear, it's like the people who swear this is impossible don't know crap about baseball but just have an axe to grind about women and their inferior lady bodies or something.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)their brains can't comprehend a woman on the battlefield or playing baseball...
that's not a limitation of the female body, it's a self imposed limitation of a brain.
Ok, whatever. Women are physically identical to men and can perform any task men can, and do it better in most cases. You win.
The fastest female pitcher in the world (69 mph) was probably holding back.
Can you articulate for me in plain english why a pitcher with a more limited range of speed in regard to pitching is a desirable asset? Is there some pitcher out there who can manipulate physics and cause the ball to turn, double-back, loop the loop, and all sorts of other aerial acrobatics to ensure that the speed of the pitch doesn't undermine its effectiveness?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)sports has always been played by people off differing physical strengths and weaknesses.
do you think Joe Montana was as strong as the average quarterback?
i don't.
but nobody outdid his career success.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)He just can't fire them accurately toward alligator arms Crabtree. :/
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)He can't throw close passes. Jeez.
Meanwhile Joe Montana won how many Superbowls while the 49ers had a practice facility with only a half size football field in Redwood City that left him unable to practice deep throws?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)as a turnstile.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)I never said anything even remotely implying that they are.
You seem to be misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that you must be some herculean giant to perform at a pro level, however you must be able to at least perform to a general standard set by the people you are competing with and against.
There are no intrinsic qualities in a player which will make up for a make up for certain shortcoming. An exceptionally accurate QB with the inability to pass > 10 yards will find no love in the league. Nor will a blazingly agile player who can't seem to run faster than a brisk jog.
My point is that physical ability still is of great importance. one sex has the biological advantage in that there are far more men who can meet the physical requirements than women. given that the pool of physically able prospects are so much larger for the men, it stands to reason that there is a far greater chance of there being a man in that pool who has the golden combination of power AND skill. Yes, there are strong women out there, but the number of them who possess power and skill of the type seen in pro sports will always be a very small ammount compared to the number of men who already have a leg up due to genetics. When your pool of potential players are already all strong, the only real requirement left is to find the ones with true talent. There are many supremely talented women players out there, but that talent amounts to little if their physical traits aren't enough to make up for the strength and speed disparity with male players.
Do such women exist (the ones who possess that balance of power and skill)? Surely. Sheer numbers guarantees it to be true. The difference is that they are anomalous compared to the number of men who can exceed them. We may see them play in the MLB one day, but they will never number more than a small few, IMO.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)are you gonna tell her she never will be able to?
are you going to try to convince her that your limited thinking limits what her body is capable of?
some very sad people here telling us things will not be possible.
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)when playing the boys. They get their feelings hurt.
Girls are doing weight training now.
Look at the Alaskan musher who broke someones arm, arm wrestling.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Of course she can. She can do anything she is physically able to do. If she can perform to the standard, why would that be any different from a man?
I'd probably tell her:
"Show the talent and ability and any team in the country will snap you up. Baseball is a meritocracy. No capitalist owner is going to limit the success of their franchise by excluding talented players who can bring home championship rings, regardless of sex. Work hard and you may make it. Not many people do, but you may."
I don't tell people sugared lies to spare them, but I don't rule anything out either. I'm realistic like that.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)sad.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Let's play a little game.
If you can show me where I explicitly said that it is impossible for women to play in the MLB, I'll eat my hat and leave this site, never to return and bother you ever again. Scouts honor. Don't worry, I won't demand anything of you if (when) you are unable to prove I said those words (aside from the time you attempted to put them in my mouth).
I said it would be extremely difficult and unlikely. I assume that English is your native language and that you're able to understand the distinction between those adjectives and "impossible".
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)But lets take sports where men and women both compete:
- Sprinting / running
- Swimming
- weight lifting
Just a few examples. In every case, men perform better. It's fact. I know facts offend you, but they are what they are.
Basketball for instance. There is a WNBA. Same sport (not softball). Do you think any WNBA player could possibly compete with an NBA player? Again, wanting it to be so won't make it so.
And women HAVE tried out for the NBA. Look up Ann Meyers. She was the best of the best in women's basketball at the time. And it wasn't even close.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)There are World Champions and Woman's World Champions, grandmasters and womans grandmasters. Pretty weird when you think about it.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)We already know that women can strike out big league hitters and we've known it since your grandpa was in short pants.
Some baseball historians think it's fiction. There's also the possibility that nice guys like Ruth and Gehrig let her strike them out. Before you blast me, aww come on, sounds possible doesn't it?
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-woman-who-maybe-struck-out-babe-ruth-and-lou-gehrig-4759182/?no-ist
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)How about this 13 year old girl?
MoNe Davis struck out six batters and allowed just three hits Sunday in leading Philadelphias Taney Youth Baseball Association to a berth in the Little League World Series.
But the reason Davis is such a big story coming into this weeks World Series is only partially explained by the batters who keep swinging and missing. The other reason Davis stands out among the crowd of young ballplayers who will descend on Williamsport, Pennsylvania in the next few days?
Shes a girl.
Davis, a 5-foot-4 eighth grader, boasts a 70 mile-per-hour fastball and induced a game-ending double-play to seal her complete game shutout and Taneys place in Williamsport (you can see highlights of her performance here).
Now imagine (if you can) what she could accomplish given the opportunity.
https://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/08/11/3469744/meet-the-13-year-old-girl-who-pitched-her-team-to-the-little-league-world-series/
linuxman
(2,337 posts)She is very good. She is also anomalous. She may be one of the few to make it to the MLB one day if her skills increase even further. Maybe not. If she's throwing 70 MPH fastballs, then she has beaten the previous world record, which is pretty impressive for a 13 year-old.
None of that is in conflict with what I have said already.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)and in baseball.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)"Ok, whatever. Women are physically identical to men and can perform any task men can, and do it better in most cases. You win."
Nobody said that, but there are always outliers. Think of Brittney Griner, who's almost a foot taller than the average *man*, and whose wingspan compares favorably to many NBA big men (e.g. Andrew Bynum).
"Is there some pitcher out there who can manipulate physics and cause the ball to turn, double-back, loop the loop, and all sorts of other aerial acrobatics to ensure that the speed of the pitch doesn't undermine its effectiveness?"
Not quite. But if speed is all that matters, then why have there been so many successful knuckleballers - including Hall of Famer Phil Niekro who pitched until he was 48(!)?
Yupster
(14,308 posts)I could see a woman knuckleball pitcher. American leaguer wouldn't have to bat.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)show this to be severely unlikely.
Yes, Billie Jean King humiliated an old-timer like Bobby Riggs.
But between professionals of roughly the same age, it's been clear what the gap is.
The match was played under hybrid rules to make it more competitive; Connors was allowed only one serve per point, and Navratilova was allowed to hit into half the doubles court. Each player received a $650,000 guarantee, with a further $500,000 for the winner.[17] Connors won 75, 62.[18] Navratilova made 8 double faults and 36 unforced errors. Connors, too, was nervous and there was a rumor that he had placed a bet on himself to win at 4:1.[19]
Endurance sports I can see, but where it involves fast-twitch, explosive muscle release, nope.
But, part of civilization means we are judged for our minds and morals, not our muscle power.
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)Her name is Joan Joyce who is in the Guiness book of records-she also played on the LPGA and holds the record for men or women for least putts in a round of golf at 17!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And that was many decades ago--in modern times, the best woman golfer can't make the cut at men's PGA tournaments.
The ability to throw a baseball hard, or to generate bat speed, are driven largely by muscle power.
Similarly, with vertical leaping capability in basketball:
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/explainer/2012/03/brittney_griner_dunk_why_are_there_so_few_jams_in_women_s_basketball_.html
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)We will never know what could have been as she was in the Sabena crash in Brussels.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)in the LPGA Lady Michelob Tournament. That ain't "many decades ago"...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)good, if not better. It's the distance where the difference occurs.
Response to geek tragedy (Reply #18)
Yupster This message was self-deleted by its author.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)It's a game that has to attract fans though in order to survive and until girls/women get to the point of matching the offensive output of the boys/men it's a tall expectation to see them on the professional field.
Personally, I think it would be cool as shit to see a female player gun down some guy at the plate from center field or throw out a base runner stealing second from behind the plate.
But it's the offense that makes the game exciting as well. Owners and managers in MLB want home runs, triples, and RBIs starting in Little League, and with consistency. What's the percentage of boys whose game is good enough for the Majors? Less than one percent?
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)12 year old boys and 12 year old girls physically aren't that different.
There is a big difference between the average 18 year old boy and 18 year old girl.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Yet we see players who are no bigger than an average sized woman succeed alongside players who are a foot taller than they are and built like linebackers.
It's not football or basketball where size can compensate for a lack of skill, but even in those sports smaller players with excellent skills succeed. The size disparity between the average man and the average woman is much less dramatic than the disparity between the average NBA player and Steph Curry, but he's about to be the league MVP because his skills exquisite. And as much as it pains me to give fucking Seattle any credit, Russel Wilson is a small fry who's done okay for himself in football.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,847 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)then Humboldt State will ditch the rule in their intramural softball program where male players have to use wooden bats and hit bigger balls than female players.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)getting to MLB is Ila Borders. She was a pitcher in the Northern League in Minnesota several years ago. As I recall, she was not too successful and was more of a novelty to get people to the games.
The Northern Leage is still operating but is not even remotely as good as Class A.
If a female were even to be good enough to be even considered to get even a tryout in spring training or some sort of open tryout, she would have to be a pitcher. There is no way any female will ever have enough upper body strength to get the bat speed needed to hit major league pitching.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)they will be able to play, they will be able to play different positions and they will be able to coach.
when you say it can never be done, it will be done.
it will happen.
just because you can't conceive of it, your thinking does not limit what is possible, it only limits what you think it possible.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)He was a pitcher. You only need one to pitch.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)sounds like you're convinced then. my work is done.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Believing it won't make it so. Like I said... basic biology. Is there a female freak of nature out there who can compete with the best ball players in the world? Maybe. Who knows. But I'd place a pretty substantial wager that in the next 25 years you won't at any point see a woman on a major league roster.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)the point is not that my believing can make it so.
but my NOT believing can't stop it from happening. and neither can yours.
i choose to believe, based on evidence but also based on hope.
you wrongly think and are grasping at straws to prove that your self imposed limitations of thinking have any power over reality.
only your reality.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)and if you compare/adjust for the 60'6" distance of the baseball mound that would be equivalent of 107MPH. However, the fastest baseball pitch on record (in a game) was 101MPH by Nolan Ryan. If we were to adjust that to the mound distance for softball, it would have been equivalent to 141MPH. (the fastest baseball style pitch by a female was 69MPH)
The problem is the BEST female athletes in the game are not really comparable to the best male athletes. There are those that say, "Well, she (generic she) just has to be better than the worst pro ball player..." and while that may be true, there simply aren't any candidates out there. Not now, and not in the foreseeable future.
If GM's thougth that a female was the best talent at a position, she would be in the game... baseball is about money. The novelty alone would generate HUGE dollars.
sP
Yupster
(14,308 posts)He played for the St Louis Browns in 1945 when most players were drafted.
He did okay until it was discovered he couldn't hit breaking pitches because he didn't have the second hand to guide the bat. He only hit about .210 without any power.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)female human body, makes your predicton about a female MLB player extraordinarily unlikely. That's not a sexist statement, but it is realistic.
Abbot was a pitcher. He put the glove on his hand right after he released the ball. Comparing him to the possibility of a female MLB player is ridiculous.
It is much more likely that a one-haned male position player makes it to the big leagues using a 'bionic' hand than a woman playing.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you can say it all you want and you were probably arguing the same thing about women in combat and heaven knows what else, but it doesn't make it so.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Your assumption is insulting.
Look at how many male baseball players who fail to make it to the big leagues. You seem to believe that some sort of superwoman is going to come along and do what tbousands of men fail to do evry spring. If you're so confident, why has a female not made it to the big leagues already?
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Seems to equate acceptance of physical and biological limitations to discrimination. Its the old "I want it to be true, therefore it SHOULD be true."
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Yupster
(14,308 posts)some day?
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)happen would be a pitcher in the AL.
The problem with the knuckleball is that it does funky stuff to the arm. There have not been too many successful knuckleball pitchers in MLB.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)In the WBC we even saw whole teams of people with very different body types (the height and musculature disparity in the Mexico v. Canada matchup was striking) compete by finding a style that works for their bodies and focusing on what they can do well.
jmowreader
(50,580 posts)Colleges would be VERY appreciative of this; it would be cheaper to maintain one competition field for both men and women, than to maintain both a baseball field for men and a softball field for women.
Ex Lurker
(3,816 posts)particularly ultramarathons and extremely long distance swimming. Physiology makes women more suited to compete in those events on an equal basis with men, and perhaps, surpass them. Events that require upper body strength and/or short bursts of speed, not so much. At least not until genetic engineering becomes commonplace, which is coming faster than most people realize.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)Players no...
That's like saying you expect to see women in the NBA...
Take the worst team in the NBA and put them against the best team in WNBA and the NBA team will blow them out of the water...
Might as well be two different sports...
Men and women train pretty much the same in basketball, but there would be very few women that would be successful in the NBA, imo, even the superstars of the WNBA.
For the most part, men are just taller, bigger, stronger, faster, and this gives them an edge against most women.
I would rather see the leagues be separate, where women have their own league and men have their own. But, again, just my personal preference.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)... and I don't see one popping up in the future either.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Last edited Fri Mar 27, 2015, 08:46 AM - Edit history (4)
My motto with something like this...
Never say Never.
Woman are quickly evolving and are doing things today that they never have before. Think Rhonda Rousey, Kacy Cantzaro, etc...
I love it personally...and for those who say no way never....well I question their sports acumen and know that haven't been paying attention.
Evolution Baby!
Calista241
(5,586 posts)A couple years ago, Annika Sorenstam tried to play against men on the PGA tour. Sorenstam, at the time, was probably the most dominant female on the LPGA tour. She'd won several Player of the Year awards, and won most of the important majors and other tournaments on the Ladies tour. She won an ESPY for Best Female Athlete from ESPN.
This was golf, a game where technique is important and brute strength less so. In general, the men's tees are about 1000 yards longer than the women's tees on the same course, and this fact is probably what keeps women from competing on the PGA tour. The course has to be long so the players don't drive the green on PAR 4's and birdie every par 4 on the course, and eagle every par 5.
During the one Men's event she competed in, at the height of her career in 2003, she didn't make the cut halfway through the event. She finished 96th out of 111 players to compete at the event.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Without all the sexist bullshit of the "League of Their Own" era.
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)As things stand, I don't think a female player has any chance at all of making it in MLB on the strength of being a hitter or traditional pitcher. Down the road, sports medicine and science may change that, but it won't be real soon.
I think the best shot, and still a very long one, that a female has at making it to the majors is as a knuckleballer. Not only is super velocity not necessary for a good knuckleball, it's actually detrimental. And
Baclava
(12,047 posts)That would probably be an even bigger longshot. First you'd have to make it through the years of drudgery in the minor league system. Nobody just shows up and starts throwing in the majors.
It would have to be a very unique talent and I don't see it happening.
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)I think the chance of a female knuckleballer making it to the majors is better than as a hitter, or traditional pitcher, but definitely not by much. Heck, it's a longshot for really good high school and college players, period. Only about 15% of the players drafted each year by MLB ever make the majors. Only about two thirds of the top high school and college players that are taken in MLB's first two rounds of the draft even make it.....and that usually takes four or five years.
The only way that the participation of female players in MLB baseball will become a common thing is that if sports science can come up with something that can dramatically improve the strength and speed of female players. The catch is, that whatever they come up with will have to be ineffective (or at least far less effective) on men.....or they'd also become faster and stronger.
We'll be able to tell when mass female participation in the majors is on the horizon. When we see that a significant portion of the very best high school players in the nation are female, then we'll know that the time is about five years away.
dr.strangelove
(4,851 posts)I think its one of those boys clubs where the men will keep it that way. Its not just having the rare physical gifts, its also breaking the steel floor holding them down.
I think there are women with the skill necessary to umpire and coach right now, but they are kept out. I suspect the umpires will be the first to change, as we have had a couple over the years do special events and spring games. Plus there are several at the next level down rated very well.
Kim Ng was the first head executive, she is with the Dodgers. But for every Kin Ng, there are dozens of Leigh Castergines, who have to deal with disgusting acts of discrimination in this boy club.
It will take breaking this view to accomplish true equality.
Now the physics of muscle mass and body type will probably limit the number of females who have the necessary skills to compete, but there are most certainly women who physically can do it. Its just that many of them leave baseball in their early years when softball is pushed as the girls alternative. So they do not get the training necessary to compete. One day, but I think it will take a lot of changing, both at the youth sports level and in the boys club itself.
But if a woman makes a team, I will proudly buy her jersey and support her as best I can as a fan of the game. I think you raised a good topic and have made a lot of people think about this. Good job.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)in baseball as men do, there could be some successful female MLB players.
But I would rather see an WMLB then women playing in MLB, but that's just a personal preference.
My Dad would rather watch women's basketball over men's basketball, where I just think women's basketball isn't very good overall.
That being said, I would rather watch women's tennis over men's tennis, and the Softball College World Series over the Baseball College World Series so, again, I think it's a matter of personal preference.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)Softball[edit]
As a player[edit]
Joyce played for the Brakettes from 19541963, the Lionettes from 1964-1966, and again the Brakettes from 19671975, In her career, she racked up many of the sports' records, which have yet to be broken:
Most consecutive all-star team selections (18)
Eight-time MVP in the National Tournament (1961, 1963, 1968, 1971 (co-MVP), 1973, 1974, and 1975)
Most victories in a season (42) (in 1974)
Two no-hit, no-run games in National Tournament (four times)
Shutouts in a season (38 in 1974)
Most innings pitched in a game (29 in 1968 against Perkasie)
Career doubles (153)
Doubles in a season (22 in 1968)
Career triples (67)
Brakettes team batting champion (1960, 1962, 196769, 1973)
Highest batting average (.467 in 1971)
Her pitches were extremely fast at over 70 miles per hour. She pitched 150 no-hitters and 50 perfect games, with a lifetime earned run average of 0.09. In her record-setting 42-win season, she pitched 38 shutouts. Her 1974 Brakettes team was the first American team to win the world championship.[2]
In exhibition games, she struck out Ted Williams at Municipal Stadium in Waterbury, Connecticut in 1961 (also during a brief stint in 1966) and Hank Aaron in 1978.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Joyce
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)For the overwhelming part, women lack the physical characteristics required to play professional baseball on a standard diamond.
When Joyce struck out Williams, she was 40 feet away. I can strike a major leaguer out from 40 feet away. If a woman could throw a major league pitch for strikes consistently from 60 feet, 6 inches, there'd have been one by now.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)An everyday player or pitcher? Possible, but unlikely. Coaches, GM's? Sure.
Reter
(2,188 posts)It's not a discrimination case, sports is just rough to mix sexes. As for the couches or managers, baseball likes to hire insiders (former players), so that's a tough one too.
anotojefiremnesuka
(198 posts)Go to a batting cage and see how many baseballs you can hit that are pitched at 80+ mph
If you can't hit at over 50% you are not mlb caliber
Take your daughters and sons to the cage see they got what it takes
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)a pitching machine can never come close to the delivery or the variation from a major league pitcher. someone may look like a champ against a pitching machine and the fall all over themselves against a real pitcher. that is why no scouts ever watch some kid in a batting cage...
sP
anotojefiremnesuka
(198 posts)As to what it really takes if one can't even hit balls on a machine you'd wasting everyone's time
If you can throw a ball over 80 mph in HS and actually get a minor league offer they will work you till you are hurt to see if you can recover and still pitch just as fast
Talk to some folks who were in the minors and how hard it is even if you have some talent. I have 2 friends that were minor league pitchers, the got signing bonuses and everything. they were worked till they were broken
If they knew the truth as to what really would happen they would not have played pro ball. Both have arm, back and shoulder problems and will for life.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)the irony is that your message actually doesn't contain a clue in the literal or figurative sense.
Reter
(2,188 posts)Typos are much more forgiving.
Snow Leopard
(348 posts)it would happen at some point, and in some other sports too, but I fail to see why it would make the game 'better'
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Mo'ne Davis was able to complete in the Little League World Series because this was a competition for children under the age of 13 - a time when children really haven't started developing traits typical of men and/or women. In five years she might still be able to pitch 70mph fastballs but she might be up against people doing 90mph fastballs which would be way more impressive.
The only way I could ever see her competiting is if she used performance enhancing drug and isn't that what got so many players like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemons in trouble in the first place?
However I always thought there could be other ways or other sports that could make things competitive but in the end there is a difference between men and women physically. I know we women want equal pay for equal work but there is some work I know we are not capable of doing. I'm not that foolish. But I'm not looking to compete with lugging concrete blocks here!
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)by parents, coaches and money.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)Players I'm not so sure about, eventually we're going to need to admit there is an actual physical glass ceiling in stick and ball sports. The past 8 years of active coaching and league play have witnessed it first hand.
My daughter is 12, about to start her 4th Softball season on top of 2 baseball seasons. She can't hit or throw half the distance my 10yo son. I'm her pitching coach and an assistant coach for my neighbors team (her first year coaching) it's going to be a great year with "my" girls team.
I've watched many College softball and baseball game live in the stands and there's no comparison between the two games or physical capabilities. Pro baseball players are just amazing to watch, everything moves in double time.
Ever wonder why there's no females riding in the TDF?
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)Frankly, I'm amazed anyone can hit a curve. It ended my dreams of a long baseball career. I found golf much more suitable after fanning air time and again.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I was raised in a Baseball Family. Dad pitched in the minors, way back when, for the Braves farm team. My brother coaches high school baseball and we all played softball for the various leagues in the surrounding counties.
One day women will be playing pro baseball. I know it just as sure as I am sitting here.