Just a quick question about Israeli citizenship

[sadoldgirl]

How many other countries are allowed dual
citizenship in the US, including military service
in these countries?

[brooklynite]

1. That's not how it works...

...ANY Country can offer Citizenship to whomever it wants. The question is whether the US determines or acknowledges that US citizenship has been withdrawn.

[jberryhill]

2. Your question evinces a basic misunderstanding

If you are a United States citizen, the U.S. does not care if some other country considers you a citizen or not.

As far as the U.S. Government is concerned, you are a U.S. Citizen. There is no status of "dual citizen" which has any relevance under US law.

There are citizens of many countries who have never been to the U.S. and who maintain US citizenship by having been born to a US parent. Conversely, there are many citizens in the US by birth who maintain a citizenship status elsewhere by having a parent, or even grandparent, from some other country.

Under US law, there is nothing that makes having some other citizenship in addition to US citizenship relevant for any purpose.

[onenote]

3. I think the OP's question evinces something else as well

[jberryhill]

4. I concur

However, it is usually best to assume a question was asked in good faith until there is reason to believe otherwise.

My "other" contemplated answer was "Obviously Kenya and/or Indonesia."

[onenote]

62. Hit and run poster = reason to believe otherwise.

[riverbendviewgal]

5. the USA is the only country that makes its duals

Last edited Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:22 AM - Edit history (1)

File taxes for life, even if they never lived in the USA and do not have US earned income. This is Citizen based taxatiom. The rest of the world has resident based taxation. Many duals are now being denied bank accounts in the countries they live in. There is a huge increase of renunciation of US citizenship..

Many duals do not know they must file US taxes. When their banks close their accounts they learn in a shocking way.

[jberryhill]

6. Sort of...

The point is that many countries do not tax earnings made abroad. The US does, and it is an example of there being no distinction in the law for persons holding multiple citizenships.

And, yes, it comes as an unwelcome surprise to many non-resident US citizens.

But aren't taxes paid to foreign governments for income derived abroad deductible? I'm vaguely aware of a treaty on certain reciprocal recognition of social security taxes at least.

[riverbendviewgal]

7. the tax compliance industry charges huge fees even if one owes nothing

Last edited Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:25 AM - Edit history (1)

It is mandatory by IRS for those duals who live out of the US to use an authorized tax compliance professional who must do the tax return online. There is no turbo tax for those who live abroad.

Also for those have never filed they face huge fines. Israel banks also closing US duals bank accounts.

[jberryhill]

8. The thing is...

I can certainly sympathize with people whose parents may have filed the consular report of birth abroad when the US State Department when the person was an infant, and so on.

But IMHO, a lot of people have had fair notice, and maintain a US citizenship for convenience. Absolutely, if they are aware of their potential tax liability, then they do need to get their butts over to a US consular office and revoke.

It's not as if the US goes hunting through foreign vital statistics files to find these people. In order to be recognized as a US citizen born abroad, someone somewhere along the line had to take affirmative steps - such as the parent having obtained a SSN in order to claim the child as a dependent on their taxes - for them to be findable.

[riverbendviewgal]

11. the children were not registered

The only indication is their passport ( not a US one) . other situation is being born in a country other the USA with an American dual parent who is a dual. That child is not registerd but in the eyes of the USA he/she is an American for life.

[Chathamization]

14. Many people who live abroad use TurboTax; you can also exclude up to $100k from your earnings when

you file (as of 2015; this number goes up each year). The income tax burdens aren't that much for most people, though other stuff like filing for overseas bank accounts with treasury is a hassle.

[riverbendviewgal]

17. those who use Turbo Tax have their home base in the USA

They are not living permently abroad Forever.

You are referring to home landers working abroad or serving in the military.

[Chathamization]

18. No, people living abroad indefinitely use it. Of course, if you have a complicated situation it may

be better to get a tax professional to help, but that's true for someone living in the U.S. as well.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. No other country does, except Eritrea

[riverbendviewgal]

12. correct but it only wants 2 percent of it Eritean's income

far less than the the USA.

[MADem]

25. Yes, they are--I also remember a 180 day rule where you paid less tax if you stayed out of the

country.

I haven't kept up in recent years, though.

[jberryhill]

29. I think that's for the first year

The downside is that you also don't get credit for social security.

[HereSince1628]

46. I think the US does recognize membership of indigenous nations

and that ends up with some special consideration of membership...

My understanding is historically that didn't include indigenous people of Hawaii and of Alaska.

I'm not sure exactly what that means maybe someone can speak to that.

[jberryhill]

47. There are significant laws relating to recognized tribes and bands

That's a whole other kettle of fish.

In Hawaii, there are substantial provisions dealing with being a shareholder/beneficiary of a native trust established as part of the statehood bargain.

This became tangentially interesting as our Constitutional Skolers on the right had occasion to intimately familiarize themselves with the workings and operations of the Hawaii Department of Health vital statistics procedures and record-keeping, as establishing lineage is important to claiming Hawaiian native status for purposes of eligibility to that trust.

[HereSince1628]

50. So dual citizenship in 'domestic' nations -is- distinct from

dual citizenship across the US and a 'foreign' nation, at least for the purpose this discussion?

[jberryhill]

51. Yeah in this context

Weird theories about "dual citizenship" and divided "allegiances" are fairly common in certain circles - particularly with respect to Jewish politicians against whom it is a fairly common way of suggesting that he's in on the nefarious Jewish grand plan to do whatever it is they are plotting.

This one seems to be a hit & run, which is disappointing. I was hoping for yet another trip aboard the USS Liberty before this thread was done.

[MADem]

10. Iran is holding a USMC veteran in jail on charges who was born in Flagstaff, AZ.

He's an American citizen but they do not recognize that and they aren't allowing anyone from the Interests Section to visit him in jail. They're calling him Iranian because he was visiting his Iranian grannie when they picked him up.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Mirza_Hekmati

Citizenship is a weird thing--some countries will recognize you even if you don't claim them!

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/03/21/obama-wants-hekmati-freed/25101887/

[riverbendviewgal]

13. happens all around the world to accidental Americans

And those countries they live their banks close accounts on accidental Americans ( some who have not lived in the USA since babies) unless they can prove they are compliant in filing US taxes.

[MADem]

15. This guy wasn't an accident. He was born and raised here, he's a USMC vet.

He was a US taxpayer. He went to see his grannies before they died, and he's been in jail for several years now. He's a pawn.

I am hoping the talks will include his release.

People who are accidental Americans (i.e. they have dual citizenship but don't want it) would be well advised to renounce their citizenship early, before they start earning. Otherwise, they may find themselves in an oddball fix, like Boris Johnson:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/22/pf/taxes/boris-johnson-london-mayor-us-tax/index.html?iid=ob_article_footer&iid=obinsite

[riverbendviewgal]

19. good suggestion to renounce early

It cost $2,350 us to renounce plus 6 years of all bank account records and 5 years of US income tax filing plus an exit tax that covers all you assets including the home you own in today's values as if you sold it today. Very costly for those babies born 50 or 60 years ago and didn't know they had to file even though they never worked in the the USA.


One question for you homelanders. Were you ever taught Citizen /Resident based taxation in you US History class in high school? This is an Instance where the USA is exceptional.

Glad I am Canadian. I can move anywhere in the world and not have to file Canadian taxes until and if I move back. Canada does not own me.

[MADem]

22. I was never taught such things but I was not educated exclusively in USA.

I don't know if this is a relatively new thing or what.

Given the whole practice of "passport tourism" it's probably something that should be taught to anyone entering the country! Maybe those flights to have a kid with a blue passport ain't such a bargain...unless they're planning on their child living here.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/03/birth-tourism-california-chinese-women-homes-raided

The reality about the taxes is that you can take an offset against taxes that you pay to another country, which is why/how I think Boris ended up "resolving" his issue without any fanfare. I think once he got his tax expert on it, he didn't owe much if anything.

[riverbendviewgal]

23. The reality is that Boris paid taxes to the US for the sale of his house

In London a mere small condo or small house can go for over a million pounds.

In Canada and the UK there is no tax on the sale of your home... The US taxed Boris when he had not earned a cent in the USA. He left the USA when he was four and never went back to live or work .

There is a limit to the offset.. Boris is certainly over the limit. .

I think Boris is getting his US taxes done, perhaps putting all his assets to his wife's name. but he still has to declare their joint accounts and joint property of before he does this.. I think that he will quietly renounce.

Many accidental Americans, even those who became citizens because of marriage or stayed after working in the country they reside.

Some went abroad to find work they could not find work in the USA, as in the dot.com explosion.. They had no choice but to renounce when banks abroad were closing their bank accounts. They have families and jobs abroad with no intention of moving back. The point is no other country in the world does to its citizens what the USA does.

The USA also does this to those who have green cards. Many entering into the USA may not know they must report all their accounts and assets to the USA IRS. And those who leave the USA should remember to turn in their green card or they will be required to file US taxes for life..

This is not a new thing. The law to tax expatriots has been law since the civil war. It is just that in 2010 it has been enforced harshly and all across the world. The US has made all the world's countries banks report all Americans who have accounts in their banks.
there is a penalty to the banks if they fail to do this. a very big penalty and so the banks of the world are reporting to the IRS who is an American having and account in their banks, no matter how long they have lived in their countries and no matter that they are citizens of the countries they live in.

[MADem]

24. Well the article said the issue is "settled" so I don't know.

He didn't say he handed in the passport, though.

If you turn around and dump your money into another house you can avoid those taxes--maybe that was what he did.

[riverbendviewgal]

27. That is not the case

I believe you are mistaken.. You are taxed on your profits .

Americans can deduct the interest on their mortgage. In Canada we do not have that but we are not taxed on our profits.. In UK it is the same..

[MADem]

30. Housing is treated differently.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/money-guides/computing-capital-gains-on-home-sale-1.aspx

[riverbendviewgal]

32. In Toronto the average house is a million dollars

and the owner could have bought 40 years ago for 60,000

so.....how does that factor to you?

[MADem]

38. I live in a house that is worth at least three quarters of a million dollars on paper.

The purchase price was less than US$30K. Then the neighborhood got designated an historic district, and ZOOM, I'm living with these rich a-holes.

Housing prices are crazy all over the place--especially in urban areas.

[riverbendviewgal]

40. so you understand

imagine you have to pay tax on the capital gains on your house.

and you lived in the UK permanently and had not lived in the USA since you were a child.. The compliance fees have becme a burden each year for you to do as you are not rich but just the average joe in the UK You would have to continue to pay the high compliance fees, often over a thousand US dollars or renounce.

Which can you afford?

[MADem]

43. I'll probably die in this house.

I pay my US taxes, so there's no issue with me. The property taxes are still cheaper than rent anywhere else.

[riverbendviewgal]

45. I wish you good health and happiness

You are a great DUr

[MADem]

48. Thank you--I don't wanna die any time soon, mind you!

Of course, we don't always have any say in that, but I take it a day at a time!



And you ain't a shabby DUer yourself--I've learned a thing or two about Canada from you...

[riverbendviewgal]

57. Thanks MADem

I learn alot from DU.

[jberryhill]

34. Is that fee independent of whether one has lived in the US?

I know it's not easy to renounce after 18 if one has been living in the US, but does that apply across the board?

[riverbendviewgal]

36. That is the fee...to renounce US citizenship no matter what the circumstances

There are some who are lucky enough to fall under the relinquishment status.. but only a few. It depends on when you became a citizen of another country. The deadline is Feb 6, 1995.....



Those born to parents of US citizens or those born in the US to foreign citizens must renounce.

[edhopper]

16. I know people with dual

Citizenship with, Germany, Ireland, Italy and Canada.

So it's common I guess.

[riverbendviewgal]

20. are they living in the USA?

Do they file taxes in those countries if they are living in the USA?

[edhopper]

58. Yes

And not as far as I know.

[riverbendviewgal]

59. that is the difference

With Resident based taxation, that they are under with their countries.

[edhopper]

60. Difference from what

OP asked about dual citizenships.

I told him there are others besides Israel. My German/American friend can live and work in Europe, something an ordinary American can't do.

[riverbendviewgal]

61. citizen based taxation vs resident based taxation

I surmise your friend has his home base as the USA. So if he works in France, he will pay taxes to France and the USA but not Germany because Germany uses resident based taxes.

If he lives and works in Germany he pays taxes to Germany and the USA. If he lives in the USA and works in the USA he pays taxes to the USA only.

The USA uses citizen based taxation. It is the only country besides Eritrea that yses Citizen based taxes.

[edhopper]

65. Okay

That was a different iscussin than I was having.

[PoliticAverse]

21. "Dual Nationality"...

http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/dual-nationality.html

[riverbendviewgal]

26. Many of those born in the USA - Accidentals

never had a US passport. nor worked in the USA.

This law is not well known outside of the USA (and probably not inside the USA) Many of those with foreign passports and place of birth as USA are shocked that they are not allowed in the USA to visit, unless they have a US passport.

This has caused a lot heartache.

[riverbendviewgal]

28. Did you know that France has voting representation for its citizens who live abroad

They have their very own rep

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituencies_for_French_residents_overseas

In the USA, the only time US citizens can vote in US elections is in the presidental elections. Anyone who contacts their House Rep or Senator of their former residential state is generally ignored. No value to their status as they can't vote for their US rep.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

31. That's simply not true

Americans abroad can vote in any federal election, and in many cases, in local elections as well.

[riverbendviewgal]

33. I know about the Federal

but show me in writing they can vote in local elections.


and does their senator or House really care about these expats abroad? nope..

[SickOfTheOnePct]

37. Make up your mind

First you say that Senators and House members don't care about ex-pats because they can't vote. Now you say you knew they could vote, but Senators and House members don't care about them because they're overseas.

Why does the FPCA form ask whether I “intend to return”?

To our understanding, the “intent to return” is to your previous state or voting district (not to the United States in general), and it helps the state determine whether to send you only the federal ballot, or also the ballot for state and local offices.

https://americansabroad.org/issues/voting/faq-about-voting-abroad/

[riverbendviewgal]

41. I am referring to those Americans who have no intention to return

and most have never voted in a USA election. and Most do not know about ciizen based taxation practiced by the USA.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

42. Oh, I see

when shown you're wrong, you'll just say "Oh, I wasn't talking about that group, I meant another group".

And whether or not they've voted in an American election is irrelevant.

[MADem]

39. I'm sorry, but that is absolute horseshit.

I've lived in over a dozen countries, and I've voted in everything from LOCAL to FEDERAL elections from many of them.

It requires prior planning, contact with the election officials at your home of record, knowing when the elections will be held (not all elections are in Nov), but it can be done. I know, because I've done it.

Further, when I really needed a bit of assistance from a member of Congress when I was living in the Middle East, Paul Tsongas and his staff were extremely helpful to me. I most certainly was NOT "ignored."

You are way off the mark with those comments.

[riverbendviewgal]

44. You were not permanently residing abroad

You always came back and had the intention to come back. You are a homelander who either worked for a corporation and intended to come back to the USA or in the military...

You are a homelander. I am referring to those who are not coming back or never resided in the USA..

I am not off my mark when it comes to those expats.

You want to live in the USA. These people do not..

[MADem]

49. I was gone for YEARS at a time, and not always under the military rubric.

The thing you need to vote in a local election is a home of record, a local address.

I had that. Some people, who don't own homes, use the address of a relative for these purposes.

If you have no hometown, after all, how can you vote in a local election?

[riverbendviewgal]

54. lets look at London Mayor Boris Johnson

His parents were UK citizens, he was born in NYC and returned with his parents at the age of 4 never to come back, to work, got to school nor live in the USA. He was quite shocked that he had to file US tax returns. The UK uses Resident based taxation like the rest of the world. He was made to get a US passport in order to go with his family on a family vacation in the USA.

There are quite a few Canadian babies born in a USA hospital due to not near a Canadian hospital whose parents lived on the border. These babies are forever US citizens, even when they do not want to be. They must renounce, with great cost when they are of age. In the rest of the world , due to the rest of world using resident based taxation., being dual is not a problem. It is a problem if you are an American dual by accident.


I have come to feel the US education system should teach about citizen based and resident based taxation. This would be very important so that those who goabroad to work or marry and live abroad will know their tax obligations To the USA.

I also feel that the USA should not allow dual citizenship, due to their citizen based taxation. GERMANY and Japan do not allow dual citizenship. Other countries as well.

This would make people seriously make a decision on whose loyalty the uphold.

You are a happy home lander. Great. You go away but return. Others go away and have no intention of returning.

Canada makes renouncing Canadian citizenship sensibly easier. $100 and a letter requesting the renunciation Is all that is needed. You do not have to go in person to a Candian Counsel. It is all done by mail.

[MADem]

55. I wonder if Ted Cruz ever got around to that, seeing as he is declaring his intention to run for

President...? He was Canadian-Cuban, there, for a bit...!

[riverbendviewgal]

56. Cruz renounced his Canadian citizenship

This was in the news awhile ago. It cost him $100 and a letter to our Canadian government. That simple.

PS: most Canadians are happy is no longer a Canadian.

Ithink he is Joe MccMcCarthy reincarnated.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I am a citizen of the world./NT

[HereSince1628]

53. I'm good with that, until

citizens of the world demand domestic tax dollars and policies that facilitate foreign misadventures.

[stone space]

52. My wife reciently got her US citizenship. She is still a Colombian citizen, as well. (nt)

[Bluenorthwest]

64. Arnold Schwarzenegger was Governor of CA and a dual citizen of the US and Austria

There is a very long list of famous dual citizens of various nations along with the US .Charlize Theron and Dave Matthews are both dual South African/American citizens for example.