I'm gonna say it: I think cops could have been shot by RW agitators

[blm]

Last edited Fri Mar 13, 2015, 09:18 AM - Edit history (4)

The shots didn't come from the crowd of protestors, they came from a sniper some distance away. That would be much more typical behavior from someone with a plan than someone who became heated at a protest.

RW agitators have been hoping for and preparing for and agitating for a 'race-war' that they have been touting for decades now. The rhetoric and fear-mongering has increased GREATLY over the last 6 years.

They were getting frustrated over the peaceful protests, annoyed by Selma remembrances, angry over the DOJ report that unveiled the institutionalized racism more clearly, and they want the country to see the protestors as the 'dangerous threat' to white Americans, just like they do. And, of course, Barack Obama is leading the black militants and planning to give YOUR white-man's property to the blacks.

Who do you think has been responsible for record gun sales the last 6 years?

Who are police chiefs across the country confirming is the greatest threat to law officers' personal safety? FBI, DHS, and Police chiefs don't think it is absurd to include the possibility of RW extremists in police shootings.

ADD:
http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>

http://www.standard.net/Police/2014/06/17/Police-wary-of-becoming-targets-of-radicals

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=2862&issue_id=22013

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html

http://gawker.com/5912132/are-you-prepared-for-the-race-war

http://abcnews.go.com/US/white-separatist-claims-make-america/story?id=21466004

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/04/new_black_panthers_booted_suited_and_armed_for_coming_race_war.html

http://conservative-headlines.com/2014/12/major-black-power-group-tells-members-to-spend-2015-preparing-for-race-war/

https://books.google.com/books?id=r59bGyH4lOAC&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=RW+separatists+preparing+for+race+war&source=bl&ots=E78Lfmo3Bq&sig=MgZDoywiJGIL99hTBEov_9xkPqg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lrQBVffTK4mLNoeVgvAM&ved=0CFYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Link to DHS Report: http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf
Link to ADL chart: http://blog.adl.org/extremism/officers-down-right-wing-extremists-attacking-police-at-growing-rate

[FSogol]

1. Unrec for pure speculation.

[cwydro]

2. Agree. nt

[blm]

5. It clearly says "I think" and "could have been"

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 03:13 PM - Edit history (1)

and provides legitimate back up links.

You do know that police chiefs across the country issued a report that law enforcement's biggest threat to personal safety are these RW groups? Why is it wrong of me to factor that reality in any time there is a cop shooting?

[FSogol]

14. "I think" it "could have been" Donald Duck. See legitimate back up links below:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1696&dat=19840425&id=sGw0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=B5gEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5694,5745960

And yes, I do know that violent RW groups are a problem.

[blm]

17. Can you admit that the top cop-killers today are RW extremists?

And usually under ambush conditions.

[davidsilver]

432. If you think most cops are killed by RW extremists you're not looking living in reality

The vast majority of cops are killed by criminals with no political agenda.

[blm]

441. The criminals aren't TARGETING the LEO's as prey. RW extremists are.

Last edited Fri Mar 13, 2015, 09:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Criminals aren't HUNTING LEO's with deliberation.

Who is?


>>>>
The bloodshed in a restaurant and a store is the latest in a series of violent sprees that have recently erupted in schools, colleges, shopping malls, movie theaters and beachfront towns. But the attack on two uniformed police officers, and the particular anti-government and anti-police sentiments expressed by the shooters, evoke warnings that have come from authorities in recent years.

The FBI has referred to individuals who believe that governments in the United States operate illegally as “a growing domestic threat to law enforcement.” In September 2012, Michael Clancy, deputy assistant director of the FBI’s counterterrorism division, warned that extremists could carry out “smaller, localized acts of violence” and some could target law enforcement and government officials.

There is a movement that believes that the federal government has dangerously overstepped its authority, and within that movement are groups that believe they need to be ready to fight back against any perceived overreach, said J.M. Berger, a terrorism analyst.

In 2012, the Southern Poverty Law Center issued a report on what it called a “stunning” rise in the number of groups it had identified as part of the overall movement. The report said it tracked 1,274 such groups in 2011, up from 824 the year before.

Many of these people “are not going to be violent,” Berger said. “It’s not like this is a group of thousands of potential terrorists here. But they do have a view on things that is definitely outside the mainstream. And they have a focus on preparation for armed resistance that is very problematic.”

Law enforcement encounters with these types of individuals are rare in Utah, however the state got a taste of ant-federal government protesters in San Juan County. Members of Nevada rancher Clive Bundy’s rally made their way to Recapture Canyon to support locals in a protest against the Bureau of Land Management in May.
>>>

[notadmblnd]

145. Yeah, but it wasn't Donald Duck or African Americans who had their sights on LEOs at the Bundy ranch

was it? Nothing but pure speculation, no reason to believe any right winger would aim for LEOs, right?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.businessinsider.com/bundy-ranch-standoff-nevada-jerry-delemus-2014-4&h=360&w=480&tbnid=jmEI2dp0qVD0nM:&zoom=1&docid=Xy_rAe22_o6mFM&itg=1&ei=t9EBVdqdCpPQgwS4x4LwBA&tbm=isch&ved=0CDoQMygIMAg

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/bundy-stands-ground-public-land-conflict&h=450&w=640&tbnid=tiWv0JgKcjDyzM:&zoom=1&docid=ZA0qtHRBxWX-nM&ei=t9EBVdqdCpPQgwS4x4LwBA&tbm=isch&ved=0CFIQMygWMBY

[Adrahil]

428. Context matters, though.

There's an old saying that when you hear hoof beats, in the absence of further evidence, think horses, not zebras. Occam's razor.

Without evidence, speculating that this is a RW false flag operation is irresponsible and inflammatory.

[notadmblnd]

436. it certainly appears to have inflamed you and a couple of other here.

However, as others have pointed out here- most crime investigations start out as speculation. So no, it is not irresponsible.

[Duval]

152. Wish I could remember

where I heard that.

[busterbrown]

52. Of course it’s only specularion..

We are talking amongst friends here. I thought the same fucking thing as soon as the news hit the air.

Right wing media lies all fucking day 7days a week..

FSogol wasn’t reporting.. We’re allowed on DU to express ourselves aren’t we?.

[FSogol]

63. I didn't report anything, but other than that, you are correct. The OP expressed himself and so did

I. Or are you saying I shouldn't disagree since "We’re allowed on DU to express ourselves"? Both blm and myself are allowed to express ourselves and we did.

[busterbrown]

78. I stated “you didn’t report anything"

[Roy Rolling]

460. Reasonable

Speculation? Of course. Reasonable and plausible? Yes. There is no theory right now that carries more weight than another, so speculating that left-wing demonstrators are the perpetrators is the other side of that speculation. Therefore, ruling out a false flag is just as reasonable based on the evidence at hand.

Sorry if it offends some, but those are just the rules of logic.

[blm]

69. They are welcome to present counter studies and reports to back up their attack.

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 07:07 PM - Edit history (1)

But, I don't think they can considering the post was written based on recent reports from the DHS and police chief groups who all state UNEQUIVOCALLY that law enforcement's greatest threat is from RW extremists, acting individually and in groups.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html

What FBI agent or detective would immediately disregard statistics and eliminate as suspects those who have targeted police officers the most in this recent environment of our country?

[chknltl]

229. Requesting further help on 'greatest threat' assertion

I heard this same assertion on Thom Hartmann earlier and went searching for where he came up with that stat. I've been unsuccessful. Your link is closer than any I have seen so far to backing the assertion up but the link itself is more of an opinion piece by writer Caitlin Dickson within the Daily Beast. It provides material about a specific group known as the Sovereign Citizens, most of the material discusses non-violent but illegal things this group is doing. Yes it also discusses some violent incidences that is associated with some of it's membership but this story doesn't deal with right wing extremism as a whole nor does it (imo), actually back up the assertion that RW extremism is Law Enforcements greatest threat. Arguably (I think), the group discussed could be considered Libertarian extremists instead.

What I am requesting here is a peer reviewed report or at least an actual study that backs up this assertion: Right Wing Groups are Law Enforcements greatest threat. If you have access to it or can point me in the right direction I'll thank you ahead of time for this assistance, if not thanks for your time and I'll keep looking. FWIW I am not challenging any assertions, I just want to review the actual data myself before posting my own opinion piece.

[blm]

243. DHS Report. Police chiefs based their article and current training guidelines on it, too.

Hard to find because of the extreme political backlash that occurred when it came out from the usual suspects.


(U//FOUO) Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political
Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment

[chknltl]

244. Heading to dig there now, thanks again blm. n/t

[blm]

246. fas link: http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

[chknltl]

317. Having tech issues here...

OK this is now officially my fourth attempt to respond to you, before I pull anymore hair out I am going to have to shut things down. Thank you for your help so far, I've got a few good links in my 'history-places visited today' to show for my efforts and what I feel is some interesting info but every time I've tried responding with what I have found I've gotten dumped! Bugs have to be on my end, been going on now for a few days but nothing like I am fighting right now, sorry. Thanks again for your help

[BlueCaliDem]

80. ^^^This x 1000^^^

RWers are not beneath infiltrating honest and peaceful protests in order to paint those protesters as "dangerous". Anyone who believes that is living in LaLaLand.

They did the same thing during the OWS peaceful protests. When OWS began, there were NO incidents of people getting hurt or property being damaged, but as the OWS movement became more popular, suddenly M$M are reporting of property damage and gun shots.

[Rex]

101. They also do it here.

RWers come here and try to disrupt our conversations all the time.

[BlueCaliDem]

179. I've noticed. It's not beneath them to lie and cheat in order to further their

RW-agenda. These people are shameless. They have NO honor. If they did, they'd try to improve on their policies and worldview for a broader appeal, but they have zero inclination to do anything as noble as that. Instead, they try and force their skewed, myopic, restrictive view on everyone...whether they like it or not.

[Enthusiast]

350. +1 You nailed it.

[SCantiGOP]

469. right on, Rex

Whether it is a thread like this, or one of the increasingly strident "Oppose Hillary at all costs" rants, I wonder how many of the posters are amateur or even paid disrupters who are lurking on message boards. I know the majority of the posters are sincere long time members, but some of the comments just seem to be designed to sow dissent and give a historical record of ridiculous comments.

[Rex]

473. I think too the ability to hide behind a wall of anonymity helps bolster some

that might not be so daring in RL. That invulnerability to harm causes some to become a virtual Conan the Barbarian on public forums. Then like you said, some are paid trolls from various RWing think tanks. Some are sad socks that can't get enough attention with just one account.

Thankfully DU in no way represents the real world nor does our opinions here effect anything outside our forum bubble.

[closeupready]

475. Yes, to your last sentence. It's not like we are forming domestic US policy here, lol.

Exposing the sheer ridiculousness of the 'irresponsible' charges at the OP.

[Rex]

476. Reckless I tells you! Every word we write here effects entire civilzations!

We have a huge duty to the rest of the world. One wrong word and it's


Ahhh nooo I spelled a word wrong! Argghhhhh!

[Enthusiast]

349. I also considered the possibility.

[840high]

82. yep

[sabrina 1]

89. There would be no such speculation about cops IF they had not earned the distrust of the people

for so long. And how convenient it is that all the news media, including our local media, have been using the same lingo regarding Ferguson 'this could be a game changer'.

I watched the video taken of the incident, as it was happening. It is clear from the video that the shots did not come from the small group of protesters across the street from the PD.

So why would an incident totally unrelated to the protests be called 'a game changer' in a memo obviously distributed to the stenographers in the MSM and even local media?

THAT is speculation.

The cops are out of the hospital. It appears the shooter was a sniper.

The police lie repeatedly, so nothing they have to say about this is credible.

They were taking people's phones last night, why/

But eye witnesses turned out to be right. From the beginning they were saying the shots came from quite a distance from the peaceful protesters. Appeared to be from a house. One eye witness posted to twitter that it appeared to a rifle.

Cops heard saying that this incident would change the game, or words to that effect.

So, because of all the lies told by the police, even on the stand in court, see the thousands of dismissed cases from OWS, due to cops lying, proven by citizens vigilance regarding video taping every arrest, the word of the cops is meaningless in this incident.

[FSogol]

106. The fact that that police department sucks has nothing to do with the speculation exhibited in

the OP.

PS, you used the word "so" 4 times in your paragraph. "Interactional agenda"!

[sabrina 1]

120. And the fact that the cops tried to tie the incident to the protesters immediately

is PURE speculation on their part.

SO, considering your concerns about speculation, I would have expected some concern over the cop/media speculation also.

We are all free to speculate, in fact that is generally the reaction to any crime in the beginning.

Cops are speculating, and we are speculating. The only difference is 'speculation' from cops gets a pass from you.

[FSogol]

129. Not true. I agree that the shots didn't come from the protesters. My opinion is not based on

cops vs protesters, my opinion is based on the OP blaming supposed RW groups. Clean off your reading glasses, because at no point did I give Ferguson cops a pass on anything.

[sabrina 1]

148. Right Wing groups and cops are natural allies. Many cops belong to these groups.

So it is not out of the realm of possibility that after seeing their buddies finally exposed for what they are, choosing to resign and get their benefits, rather than risk being fired, one of them or more, might have been so incensed they were motivated to 'do something about it'.

Or maybe not. But the 'convenience' of the incident right now, on that particular day, has given rise to speculation. So IF it was the case, it was a dumb thing to do BECAUSE it would be natural for people to 'wonder' about the convenience of it all and the initial media response.

If it is not the case, then hopefully we find out the FACTS after which there will be no more need for speculation.

[FSogol]

160. I don't understand why you are preaching this to me. I said skip the speculation let's get some

facts. I never supported the police or dissed the protesters.

AAR, I give up. SPECULATE ON EVERYONE1!1 When some facts come out we can speculate on whether they are true or move onto some other dumb speculation on something else. ALCOA!





PS. Have we ruled out the possibility that Tom Cotton was the shooter!

[sabrina 1]

175. You admonished the OP for speculating. People responded to your admonishment

to try to explain WHY there is going to be speculation.

No need to get all upset over it, it's a natural reaction when something is so 'convenient' and the timing so incredible.

I certainly understand it. We know nothing right now as to who is the criminal.

But that didn't stop the speculation that it was most likely the Protesters.

Can't stop people from speculating. That's all people are saying. Distrust of the police because of THEIR actions, is why people are speculating. That is all.

[KingCharlemagne]

241. Here's some speculation: was the original investigation into Mike Brown's extra-judicial execution

by a killer cop thrown by infiltration of KKK and right-wing militia into the local and state constabulary forces? Don't think it can happen? Check out what happened at the U.S. Air Force Academy where right-wing Christian Dominionists secured enough of a foothold that non-believers felt threatened and discriminated against.

IIRC, St. Louis County DA McCulloch attended some high-society shindig in St. Louis County -- a sort of coming-out party for St. Louis young women of high society -- that traces its roots back to the glory days of the KKK in the 1920\30s. McCulloch attended this function while the Mike Brown investigationa nd grand-jury proceedings were in full swing.

But McCulloch was elected by the non-racist ( ) voters of St. Louis County so he can't be a racist, right?

[davidsilver]

435. Yes, you make a very good point

Most cops are RW extremists.

[blm]

459. I don't think most cops are aligned with RW extremists as much

as one would think. Their concerns about RW extremists are just under-reported. There is a big difference between a traditional conservative and RW extremist.

Corpmedia fears the backlash from rabid reactionists when they cover reports of ambush killings of law enforcement. Perhaps so as not feed the notion that their expectation of a 'widespread revolution' has, indeed, begun and they need to pick up their rifles and targets, too. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

[blm]

360. I didn't blame - I said it COULD HAVE HAPPENED and based

it on reports and studies from government agencies and law enforcement's own concerns about being targeted by RW extremists.


http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

122. There was a time when you wouldn't see that kind of speculation, people have wised up

[FSogol]

131. I don't think anyone believes the protesters were responsible for the shootings. n/t

[notadmblnd]

155. Well if it was a sniper, he wasn't a good shot.

a competent sniper would have taken out his target, unless......

and I'm speculating here, the sniper didn't really want to take out his targets.

[sabrina 1]

163. I agree with your last sentence. A good sniper would be able to do that.

The two cops, originally reported as in 'serious condition' are out of the hospital, one received a wound to the shoulder, the other apparently a wound to the side of his face, according to news reports.

So, as you say, either the shooter was a very bad shot (apparently they/s/he was over 300 ft away) or a very good shot. Depending on what the intention was.

[notadmblnd]

169. one would think that seriously injured officers would spend more than several hours in the hospital

So you know someone is lying right out of the gate.

[sabrina 1]

477. Yes, exactly. n/t

[CreekDog]

478. well, how long would they stay based on the reported injuries?

do tell us.

[notadmblnd]

481. Again, one would think that SERIOUSLY injured officers would spend more than several hours

in the hospital.

Obviously their injuries were not serious enough to merit a stay of more than several hours which indicates that their demise from their injuries was not imminent.

Why you are demanding that I answer how long I think they should be for the injuries they received- doesn't even make sense.

[pintobean]

190. The round entered his head just under his right eye

and the bullet is still lodged inside his skull, just behind his right ear. That's not "a wound to the side of his face". It's a fraction of an inch from a kill, and I would think there is a lot of damage in the path it took.
I'm sure they both will be seeing specialists, having more surgeries, and going through rehab for quite a while. I don't know what purpose making the injuries sound like hangnails serves.

[sabrina 1]

207. Both of them are out of the hospital. I repeated what news reports

were saying. There was no mention of a bullet entering under his right eye.

Michael Brown won't be getting any rehab btw.

No one should be shot for any reason.

But the sad fact is, civilians are shot and killed on an alarmingly frequent basis in this country.

I find it disturbing that the injuries to cops are considered far more important than the killings of unarmed civilians, teenagers, children, mentally ill people.

I consider each human life taken to be of equal importance.

I am glad those cops appear to be well enough to leave the hospital.

I wish Michael Brown's death had received as much respectful attention, rather than the despicable treatment his dead body received, and concern for his well being, rather than the immediate attempt to diminish his life with claims of pot smoking etc.

So, forgive me if I find it appalling to see the difference in the value of lives and point it out.

For the sake of the families of those two officers, I am glad they are alive even if they require rehabilitation.

For Michael Brown's family, who have issued a statement condemning the shooting of the cops, not something they received btw, I'm sure they would love to have their son alive even if it meant years of rehab. And I'm sure they would have loved to see him treated with equal respect and concern for his life.

All human beings should be treated the way these cops are being treated.

[pintobean]

251. "civilians are shot and killed on an alarmingly frequent basis in this country"

Yes, and very rarely by cops. It's just that the one's shot by cops (justifiably, or not) are used as political fodder, while those shot by other civilians might get a headline in a local paper and a mention on the local news.

We don't concern ourselves with the everyday killings of children. The guy below didn't commit a strong arm robbery, or attack a police officer. He and his family were driving out of a park when their van was fired on. The cops performed first aid and got him to a hospital, but it was no use. He was six.



I'm exposed to stories like this damn near every day. No one is going to concern themselves with this kid the way they did with Vonderrit Myers.

[sabrina 1]

337. Oh, you are talking about regular criminals who murder people every day. I was talking about those

who are entrusted with PROTECTING people, the ones whose salaries the people pay and trust with their safety.

So to repeat, because clearly you are confusing expectations regarding common criminals and what is expected of those they people hire to protect them from common criminals, who BECOME the very threat they are hired to prevent.

Now that this has been cleared up, I will say it again:

"civilians are shot and killed on an alarmingly frequent basis in this country"

And I will add what you obviously did not understand, 'by those entrusted to protect them'.

Contrast the horrendous record of cops killing civilians with the records of other civilized nations where years can go by without a single killing of a civilian by cops.

I've seen this tactic used lots of times in an attempt to distract from the MAIN ISSUE.

That far too many of those hired to protect the public have become part of that very threat themselves.

We are very aware of murders in this country. That is not the topic here.

Adding to the pain of the loss of a loved one, is the absence of justice when the killer is a cop.

There will be NO justice for the victims of cop killers.

At least, small comfort though it may be, victims of common criminals do often get some justice when the killers are caught and punished.

[Rex]

121. Unrec...

[FSogol]

171. So, what you are saying is that public playgrounds shouldn't have see-saws....

[Rex]

202. Exactly!

They are a menace to gravity!

[gregcrawford]

126. Until a thorough investigation is completed...

... ANY scenario is "pure speculation." Right now, this possibility is no less plausible than any other. Violent agent provocateurs have been employed many times, and not just by Hitler's minions. J. Edgar's boys did it countless times to gin up fear and fury against "subversives," AKA people and groups he didn't like, which was pretty much everyone.

And don't think for a second that hard-core lunatics out there wouldn't do such a thing; they most certainly would, and they wouldn't have to be a Hollywood-caliber marksman to make the shot, either. I'm a Liberal down to my DNA, but I'm also an expert marksman, so I know whereof I speak.

When the slugs are recovered, they will know whether a handgun was used, or a rifle. If it was a long gun, then a sniper firing from some distance becomes a real possibility. I wouldn't dismiss this theory out of hand just yet.

[gregcrawford]

214. UPDATE

The shots were fired from a hill approximately 100 yards away, so a rifle was used. A 100-yard shot requires a fair degree of proficiency, unless someone was hoping to it a cop, any cop. They were bunched up when those two were hit. But big-city bad boys favor handguns, not rifles.

One local reporter said she "wouldn't characterize it as a sniper attack." Ummm... sorry. Shooting someone from a distance is a sniper attack by definition, but whatever.

The point is, the protesters did NOT fire the shots; the rounds were fired from a distance, which strengthens the agent provocateur theory, rather than diminishing it.

[blm]

365. Thanks for the perspective.

.

[blm]

266. ADL report includes a graphic chart on increased targeting of LEO

http://blog.adl.org/extremism/officers-down-right-wing-extremists-attacking-police-at-growing-rate

[Comrade Grumpy]

417. That chart is fucked up.

It appears to show 29 cops killed by right-wing extremists in 2014. That ain't the case.

From the text: "Five offi­cers have been killed by right-wing extrem­ists since 2011, not count­ing the Las Vegas incident."

I don't know what that chart actually represents, but it appears to represent number of cops killed on the X axis and year on the Y axis. That's deceptive. But it is the ADL.

[blm]

418. not counting Las Vegas, Penn, Florida and Texas.

There has been a major uptick since Bundy.

And there are also shootings where police are wounded and attempted shootings.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/7855500-Fla-man-who-ambushed-cops-had-anti-government-beliefs/

[davidsilver]

439. Typical ADL BS.

and yes, I'm Jewish.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

146. What's wrong with pure speculation when you are speculating? Isn't that done quite a lot on DU?

And I for one would not be at all surprised that he is correct. We will see soon, hopefully.

[blm]

345. Studies don't call them Republicans, either. Nor did I.

Right wing extremists is a correct label.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6355602

[liberalmike27]

472. Thing is

Without this speculation, the only speculation is media speculation, which is of the "black people did it," or "protestors did it," kind.

Things were going their way, they had the wind at their backs, protestors. So why this move, when people are resigning left and right? It makes no sense. Even Gump would've known it would be bad for the movement, it would portray them in a bad light.

Add the fact that they weren't head shots, kill shots, from a fairly easy distance to kill, presumably with a scope, just makes me think some white people wanted to portray them in a bad light, so they cooked up this ruse.

And they've not been caught either. Seems odd.

[B2G]

3. I love the 'sniper' meme

It's so much sexier than some 'fucking asshole firing a gun into a crowd of cops from several hundred yards away'.

Added bonus that it piggy backs on the whole American Sniper theme.

[blm]

8. Police chiefs agree that RW extremists are the greatest threat to their personal safety.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=2862&issue_id=22013

[virgogal]

143. I just read the entire article at your police chief mag link and could find

nothing that says these guys are the "greatest threat" to their personal safety.A threat,yes,but hardly the worst.

Where did you see that????

[LanternWaste]

51. hich I think, would require a degree of accuracy not common to the ordinary protester.

"some asshole firing a gun into a crowd of cops from several hundred yards away" which I think, would require a degree of accuracy not common to the ordinary protester.

[jberryhill]

74. Texas sharpshooter fallacy

You are suggesting that it takes a "degree of accuracy" in order to fire into a "crowd of cops" and hit a cop?

[sabrina 1]

157. And yet, that is exactly what protesters, eye witnesses were tweeting last night.

Several tweets stated that the shots were coming 'from a house' at least a hundred yards away. Quite accurate accounting from the protesters, which I watched on Twitter in real time last night, it appears today.

Meantime not so accurate 'reports' coming from people who were not at the scene. Attempts to 'blame' the protesters turned out to be totally inaccurate.


Protesters caught the incident on video which was also available minutes after it occurred last night.

So your statement is negated by the facts in this case, it appears.

[ileus]

4. Exactly....I believe we all can agree this is what happened.

[blm]

18. Maybe not exactly, but, definitely could have been.

.

[pintobean]

42. Okay then. This is our reality.

We have to stick to it, too. Some might try to make us change our minds with their supposed "facts" and "evidence". Don't believe it. We've seen these tricks before.

Stay strong everyone!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. We went there with the Boston Bombing and looked like fools.

[blm]

12. I didn't go there. Save the 'we' for those who did. My basis is police chief report.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=2862&issue_id=22013

[leveymg]

7. Sniper shooting by definition, if the shooter(s) not close by. I agree. This isn't a meme, just

the only logical conclusion based upon the facts reported. The question, now, is who did the shooting and why.

A report stated that the police were searching the attic of a "home . . . about four blocks west of the police department."

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-search-for-those-who-shot-officers-in-ferguson-ambush/article_eda6589f-d0fc-5420-8489-787a218a6d83.html

Where have we seen snipers before? Dara'a? Derna? Kiev? Right out of the spoiler's playbook.

[Bonx]

11. The OP isn't really about snipers. It's about Right Wingers.

[leveymg]

13. It's about the possibility of RW snipers.

That's a legitimate topic of conversation, and the facts certainly suggest that possibility.

[7962]

166. Sure, could be. Could be ISIS too.

[blm]

183. FBI and DHS put RW extremists ahead of ISIS as actual threats here.

But, it appears some want to argue with their findings.

[Bonx]

185. Yep. Could have been the ghost of Jesse James. Too early to rule anything out.

[leveymg]

200. Eye witness reported the source as "500 feet away up the hill." There was another report that

stated police had raided a house at 125 Dade Ave, four blocks from the Ferguson PD. 125 N Dade Ave. is at the intersection with Tiffan Ave. Do a Google map and street view for the Ferguson PD and do a look around. Across the street is Tiffan Ave. Look up that street there is a steep hill in the direction of Dade. You'll see a house on the right about 500 feet up. Turn around. Direct line of sight back down to the police department building.

Could've been the ghost of Jesse James - but that's a separate issue.

[blm]

249. Thanks - and here's the FAS link to DHS report being questioned:

http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

[leveymg]

272. MSNBC just reported "muzzle flashes seen 100 to 200 yards away up the hill."

Conforms with 500 feet. Protesters weren't in that area, according to witnesses. Officers were in front of PD building. Sniper or snipers.

Check out Tiffan Ave on Google street view.

[blm]

275. Graphic chart from ADL on increase in cop shootings by RW

http://blog.adl.org/extremism/officers-down-right-wing-extremists-attacking-police-at-growing-rate

[leveymg]

278. You probably nailed it on the macro level.

I think I may have pinpointed it on the ground. The St. Louis Co. Police Chief really seems to be confused or misinformed - he claimed the gunshots came from the crowd. The use of the word "ambush" seems to feed into that misdirection.

[blm]

285. 'ambush' is exactly what has been happening to LEO's -

According to the reports on RW extremists.

And recently:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/us/state-police-officer-dies-in-pennsylvania-ambush.html?_r=0

[leveymg]

287. This appears to have been a sniper attack, not an ambush. See my comments #284 below.

Officers were stationary, shot from "100-200 years away behind the crowd, up the hill". Do a Google street view, 23 Tiffan Ave, Ferguson, MO, magnify twice. Clear shot for a rifle with a scope. 2 out 4 shots hit.

I agree with you, looks like another planned attack on police. Generally consistent M.O with RW shooters. Shooter(s) probably hoped the cops would start shooting into the crowd. Could have been far worse. Just not sure yet exactly who the shooter(s) were.

[blm]

294. Yes, I just didn't see it as an impetuous act of a protestor

it was much more deliberate.

[leveymg]

297. The distance and accuracy indicates it was rifle(s), probably with scope(s).

Not impetuous or a "drive-by." Someone scouted out the area, or was already familiar with it.

[sir pball]

325. It wasn't a rifle. Probably a pistol caliber carbine.

At 100, even 200, yards, a hit to the face from a rifle, even a relatively weak .223 AR (which, if it were an RWNJ with a full-on rifle, would be my guess) would be, if not immediately lethal, definitely not result in the officer being out of the hospital in less than 24 hours.

But yeah, it had to be a shoulder-fired long-barreled weapon, probably with an optical sight of some sort. Definitely not something that would just happen to be at hand in a fit of rage..

[blm]

329. It struck me as a planned shot -

just based on initial reports. When I factored in the context of the last 6 years and the various reports and studies, I felt the need to bring up the possibility.

[sir pball]

336. Oh, it was absolutely planned, agree 100%

I'm just leaning (well, pretty much sure, now that there's apparently handgun shell casings found) towards the shooter having a rifle shooting pistol rounds, as opposed to a rifle-rifle. Thankfully so, or we'd likely be discussing one or more dead officers.

[blm]

338. Glad to hear your perspective...

I don't know much about guns…I do know people.

[7962]

276. At this point I'd like to know the caliber of the shots fired & if they can tell the type weapon

Both cops were treated and released, even the one shot in the face. You dont usually get shot in the face and get treated and released, so the shots (IMO) would likely have come from a distance and lost some power before getting there.
It also should be easy to determine if shots were fired from that house with GSR tests of some type?

[leveymg]

284. I agree on all that.

From that distance with two out of four hits, probably long gun(s) with scope(s) - seems likely planned, not spur of the moment shooting. Look for yourself - 23 Tiffin Ave.

[cali]

9. I think some people have a tendency to want to blame the opposition

even when there is no evidence.


the speculation in your post is absurd. Where's your evidence? Any evidence at all.

[blm]

15. Recent police chief report says RW extremist are the GREATEST threat facing officers today.

If it's a likely scenario to them, why should it be absurd when I point out the possibility?

[cali]

57. are you confused? that is decidedly NOT evidence for your CT theory. Your post belongs in

creative speculation.

[blm]

79. So, according to you, good investigators would immediately strike down

the possibility the shooter belongs to the first group named by DHS and police chief list of those most likely to target law enforcement.

Just CT - no statistics to warrant any further consideration.

OK - thank you for that, cali. You'd make an awesome FBI agent.

[cali]

99. uh no. I said nothing of the sort. and you sure as shit wouldn't make a decent investigator

you've demonstrated a tightly closed mind. You've decided who the perps are with no evidence to back up your "theory". I believe in following wherever the evidence leads and not making a wild accusation.

[blm]

118. No - I clearly stated that it COULD HAVE BEEN -

and based the probability in the recent statistics on cop killings studied by the DHS.

But, you are welcome to pretend I said anything you want, cali.

[closeupready]

127. Wow. lol - your authoritarian bias is really strong in this thread. blm did NOT make a decision

about ANYTHING - he merely said he thought that this theory could be true.

I mean, did you go to college? What he did in the OP is Logic 101, not 'creative speculation' or whatever term you've coined.

[NuclearDem]

130. If by Logic 101 you mean Logical Fallacies 101, then you're right.

You've got a lot of nerve calling cali authoritarian.

[closeupready]

133. What are you, her mother? Cali can respond to my post as she sees fit. As for you,

I'm done with you.

[NuclearDem]

135. No, just someone who's familiar enough with her posting history

to find your assertion of her being an "authoritarian" patent nonsense.

[closeupready]

137. I have 3x your post volume and 6 years on membership here at DU. Thus, I know better

than you about Cali's post history, thanks.

[NuclearDem]

138. I don't particularly care for e-penis waving.

Your assertion that cali is an authoritarian is still ridiculous.

[7962]

279. Thanks for THAT mental picture! That was a good laugh, N.D.

And a termI've never heard before, but will certainly be sure to use in the future

[cali]

144. then you damned well know better than to make that accusation. repugnant to make false claims.

[cui bono]

424. There is something terribly wrong with your reading comprehension then.

What did you misunderstand that would lead you to call cali an authoritarian?

[closeupready]

468. Great. Thanks for your post. Welcome to my ignore list.

[cali]

142. you're familiar enough with my posts to know that sticking up for the authorities

simply because they are the authorities is something I decidedly do not have a history of. that's why I laughed at your ridiculous accusation.

[blm]

221. and you concluded that my consideration

that the copshooting 'could have been' carried out by a RW extremist, with legitimate links to articles on the DHS report and heightened threats to law enforcement is 'absurd' and worth the anger directed towards me….after all these years?

OK.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

182. His thinking is 100% logical! I am a professional logician, and can attest to that fact.

[cali]

139. lol. no, it's my bias against thories that are devised to fit preferred narratives.

[closeupready]

161. I see. So attempts to instigate race wars has never happened in your universe?

I mean, the idea of a multiverse is merely a theory, but I suppose you could be posting from another one, one without a Timothy McVeigh or the DC snipers.

[blm]

225. 'preferred' narratives or considered narratives based on DHS report?

.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

173. That's EXACTLY WHY he is speculating! Did he say he KNOWS it was a RWer? NO.

Man, some people around here just like to argue about anything.

[virgogal]

320. Where is the report that says that they are the GREATEST threat?

[blm]

328. Ya know….

I find it interesting that some of you are probing me repeatedly and haven't found any time to look into the matter. It is not a well-publicized issue, I grant you that. Perhaps there are reasons for that.
It's not my fault you're so invested in shooting down the subject you won't spend looking into the issue yourselves.

http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

168. Speculation doesn't require evidence. And I find nothing wrong with his speculation.

He has at least a 50/50 chance of being correct, as far as I know. There now I speculated!

[Yo_Mama]

10. Off-hand I doubt it.

A person from outside Ferguson is certainly a possibility - accounts of the protest described conflicts between two groups of protesters.

Clearly outsiders have come in for protests in the past. It's not just the right-wing that has a violent group - the Black Bloc is left and has been a violent presence in a number of mass movements, esp. Occupy.

Clearly it was someone into violence!!! That much we can reasonably assume.

The reason I doubt your theory is that the shooting seems to have come from a residential area, and since no one was immediately apprehended, I suspect that the shooter knew where to take cover quickly - either in a waiting car or in a home or some other local inconspicuous way out.

I suspect it was a local.

[blm]

40. And your suspicion could be correct. I gave a base for my suspicion

that I believe is legitimate given the statistical proof provided in the DHS report and the report from the police chiefs.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

186. You mean his speculation, right?

[starroute]

47. The Black Bloc is mainly into property damage

They smash Starbucks and bank windows. They do rowdy, mob-type actions. They don't take up positions on a hillside and fire over the heads of a crowd to pick off two cops with four shots.

Saying "into violence" is muddying the situation. You have to look at the specific style of violence.

You also have to ask yourself who might benefit.

[nashville_brook]

479. snipers + protestors...where have i heard that before...???

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Attorney-FBI-was-aware-of-plan-for-snipers-on-4698431.php

Attorney: FBI was aware of plan for snipers on Occupy Houston

By Robert Stanton | July 31, 2013 | Updated: July 31, 2013 3:36pm

As the Occupy Houston movement gained steam in 2011, the FBI was aware of a plan to use snipers to take out leaders of the movement, according to FBI documents obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request.

The highly redacted documents do not point to any FBI involvement in the plan. Agency spokeswoman Shauna Dunlap said that it's premature to draw conclusions about the documents because the publicly released information is incomplete.

The documents do raise questions about how much the FBI knew about the plot, said Houston attorney Paul Kennedy, who represented several of the Occupy protesters in misdemeanor cases.

In an email Wednesday, Dunlap said the agency investigates hundreds of such threats, and "rest assured if the FBI was aware of credible and specific information involving a murder plot, law enforcement would have responded with appropriate action."

Dunlap stated the documents "were redacted in several places pursuant to privacy laws that govern the release of such information." She cautioned against "drawing conclusions from FOIA documents, as they often contain raw data and are incomplete."

Kennedy obtained a copy of the FBI document, which was requested in December 2012 by the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund, and has posted it on his blog.

"The documents clearly state that the FBI had knowledge of a plot, and they've redacted out the names of any people and organizations," Kennedy said.

"My gut tells me that somebody had put together a plan to kill the leaders of a leaderless group," he said. "Whether that person was affiliated with the government, I don't know. I find it hard to believe, though I know some things the government has done in the past."

The document states, in part:

"An identified (DELETED) as of October [2011] planned to engage in sniper attacks against protesters in Houston, Texas, if deemed necessary. An identified (DELETED) had received intelligence that indicated the protesters in New York and Seattle planned similar protests in Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin, Texas. (DELETED) planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via suppressed sniper rifles."

[stone space]

84. Were the two cops wounded by broken glass and spraypaint?

the Black Bloc

[JawJaw]

16. agreed

Something doesn't smell right about the idea of a protestor shooting these cops.

The protest was winding down, according to the Police spokesman. The shots were fired from a different direction to where the main body of protestors were, according to an eye witness.

I watched the story breaking on CNN Europe and the anchors seemed to be quite uncomfortable with jumping to the "protestor perp" narrative. I expect the likes of Fox showed no such nuance.

Picking off cops from a quiet vantage point does seem to fit the RW agitator style.

Yes, it could be just a random asshole, but why now; when the PD are on the ropes? Why not months ago when tensions were running much higher?

[Beausoir]

19. Ridiculous.

You know perfectly well that is sheer lunacy.

[blm]

39. Who did DHS and police chiefs group name as their TOP threats?

Using data they studied in recent years both issued reports naming RW extremists as the number one threat to the personal safety of law enforcement.

Perhaps you are unaware of the report.

[cali]

61. I can't believe you think that's evidence for your little theory. It ain't. not close.

[blm]

96. So FBI agents and investigators should immediately cross extremists off the list

because statistics on cop-shootings are there to be ignored. Statistics are meaningless to investigations on cop-shootings.

cali say so.

[cali]

102. one more time, blm: I never said any such thing. pathetic attempt to shy away from producing

the statistics you keep going on about but don't post.

[blm]

125. They're in the DHS report the articles are referring to.

Or do you think this all just made up?

Apparently you are unaware of the study and the report. Don't blame you, really, the report was suppressed, after all.

But, you won't believe me - perhaps you'll believe the SPLC.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2011/summer/inside-the-dhs-former-top-analyst-says-agency-bowed

[NuclearDem]

128. Some cops are killed by RW extremists,

therefore all cops are killed by RW extremists.

No.

[blm]

132. No one said that, but you.

.

[phil89]

346. That's what you're implying.

Cali has proven you wrong, quit while you're behind.

[blm]

352. LOL - Apparently, she hasn't.

Your bar must be very low.

No one on this thread has said ALL cops are killed by rightwing extremists. No one on this thread has even implied it any way, shape, or form. In fact, the only ones using those words are those lying and claiming it is what is being said or implied in my post.

I said EXACTLY what I said. The day that someone is not allowed to use the words, "I think" or "could have been" and then give solid links backing up why they consider the possibility, should be a day that no DUer wants to see.

[Rex]

224. .

[NuclearDem]

227. I didn't tell you to roll over. Bad Rex!

[Rex]

234. Sorry but your weak attempt at a reply left me laughing so hard I fell down!

I understand that you cannot refute information, so you just made up something sad off the top of your head. But really, try harder next time that was pathetic.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

188. Someone on this thread is having some kind of breakdown.

And it isn't you, blm.

[heaven05]

158. in your world

it's lunacy, in the real world BLM's theory holds water. It is speculation but not absurd and definitely not lunacy.

[B2G]

20. Where is this sniper on a hill coming from?

The reports I've seen indicates the shots were fired from a parking lot about 125 yards away and were parallel to the ground.

Do you have a link?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. He's not coming from a hill, he's coming from a grassy knoll, silly./NT

[B2G]

23. Lol. I've actually been waitng for that. nt

[blm]

25. You may think that's hilarious, but, my suspicion is in line with police chiefs' report.

I wonder why you find it necessary to be mocking?

Have you spent time mocking the DHS report and the police chiefs report that state clearly that the number ONE safety threat to law enforcement is RW extremists?

Statistically speaking, it is far more likely cops will be killed or wounded by RW extremists than by any other group.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Well, if your theory is proven correct I will apologize./NT

[blm]

31. I'm basing it on statistics gathered by DHS and police chiefs. Whether it proves

to be correct or incorrect shouldn't matter. It's a solid possibility and shouldn't be tossed out immediately as an absurdity.

[cali]

66. no. it is not in line with that report.

and where are your statistics demonstrating that "it is far more likely cops will be killed or wounded by RW extremists than any other group"? And what are you using as a definition for the word group?

[blm]

115. Geez - last month's summit on terrorism included domestic terrorism.

It was based on the recent DHS report.

Sorry it couldn't hold your interest. Did you immediately dismiss it as absurd?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/politics/terror-threat-homeland-security/

DHS intelligence report warns of domestic right-wing terror threat

Washington (CNN)They're carrying out sporadic terror attacks on police, have threatened attacks on government buildings and reject government authority.

A new intelligence assessment, circulated by the Department of Homeland Security this month and reviewed by CNN, focuses on the domestic terror threat from right-wing sovereign citizen extremists and comes as the Obama administration holds a White House conference to focus efforts to fight violent extremism.

Some federal and local law enforcement groups view the domestic terror threat from sovereign citizen groups as equal to -- and in some cases greater than -- the threat from foreign Islamic terror groups, such as ISIS, that garner more public attention.​
>>>

[heaven05]

170. you're doing just fine

all this ado about you is the usual backlash when RW(white) is mentioned as a possible perpetrator of insane shootings like this. I would not put it past some RWer doing something like this given the last six+ years of RW racist reaction to a mixed race POTUS. The police chief and the others 'resigning' got some of those RW reactionaries real pissed off, I'm sure.

[blm]

180. I didn't say they did it - I inserted the possibility

and all hell broke loose.

[heaven05]

319. exactly

but you have to expect that here. Keep on pushin........

[heaven05]

164. are all these attacks

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 05:34 PM - Edit history (1)

against BLM's speculation because RW shooter generally means white shooter? And lord knows, this is just not possible. BLM's links and stats hold up, where is your proof they don't?

[villager]

97. There are many here who think the purpose of a discussion site is to "mock"

...since they lack all tools to merely discuss things about which they might disagree.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

191. I give you a +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000!

[VScott]

34. I thought it was from that book suppository building?

[cwydro]

44. Suppository!

[VScott]

53. Yep, and it was from pretty far

[blm]

22. I first heard 'hill' on morning news - I changed it to some distance

.

[B2G]

24. A more likely scenario is that

some damn fool in a nearby parking lot with a handgun decided to shoot into a crowd of cops 125 yards away and hit 2 of them.

But don't let me get in the way of wild speculation.

[blm]

27. What is wild about the statistics from DHS and police chiefs?

The statistics prove that law enforcement is more likely to be killed or wounded by RW extremists more than any other group.

Why is it wild speculation when I state that there is just cause to believe it could have happened this time?

[cali]

68. please provide those statistics. And it's wild speculation because you have NO evidence.

[blm]

198. I didn't say there was evidence on this killing - I referred to studies

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)

by DHS that RW extremists are a top threat to law enforcement, and you refuse to accept that it 'could' have been what happened in these cop shootings.

Are you of the belief that DHS did not use statistics in their studies before releasing their report?

http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

[LanternWaste]

56. We often refer to our own speculation as "more likely"...

We often refer to our own speculation as "more likely"... it allows us to hold others to a higher standard.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

193. Most of the damn fools I know are RWers.

[JawJaw]

41. link:

[link:http:// http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/12/ferguson-police-officers-shooting-shots-directed-exactly-at-officers|

.
"Several protesters said the shooter was not near the crowd of demonstrators, but was up on a grassy hill."

[B2G]

55. There's no link. nt

[JawJaw]

75. apologies

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/12/ferguson-police-officers-shooting-shots-directed-exactly-at-officers

[Matrosov]

28. Probably a redneck with an AR/AK nt

[Glassunion]

43. The police are reporting they think the shooter used a handgun.

So it was probably a redneck with a handgun.

[Matrosov]

65. He must have good aim

I think it was said the shots were from over 100 yards away. That's not impossible with a handgun, but the shooter would have to be very good or very lucky. Hence my assumption that it was a semi-automatic rifle.

However, they should be able to tell from the recovered bullets whether it was a handgun or a rifle caliber, and it'll be interesting to see how that turns out.

[jberryhill]

85. How good does your aim have to be in order to shoot into a crowd and hit someone in the crowd?

[Glassunion]

242. It would be the unlucky lottery

In order to hit the police you'd have to shoot over the crowd (standing between where the shots came from and the officers). If you aim at the police, you'd actually hit someone in the crowd because the bullet drops rather quickly at that distance. In order to the police, you would have to aim about 1 to 2 feet (depending on the handgun) over the police officers.

[jberryhill]

292. This assumes the shooter was attempting to hit someone in the first place

...as opposed to just shooting in the air to scare people.

There are winners of this lottery every year on New Year's Eve, when people randomly fire guns in the air.

[Glassunion]

307. True

But these were not shots up into the air. It would take about 30+ seconds (Mythbusters Ep: 50) from when they were fired for them to fall back down.

[jberryhill]

342. That's straight up

Someone firing with reckless abandon in the general direction of a crowd, at an appropriate angle, is probably going to hit something.

There are a range of options between dead horizontal and straight up.

[Glassunion]

363. Sir Pball is most likely correct.

Shooting with reckless abandon with a handgun does not really fit the result of those poor officers being shot. To me these were aimed shots and at that distance a carbine seems most logical.

If what I've read is true: that the officers were standing next to each other and there were 4 quick shots. At that distance, and with a handgun, the aiming point (at arm's length) would be less about 1/8 of an inch apart (left to right) and about 1/4 of above (up and down). To me that's either lightning striking twice or someone aiming with a carbine and intending to hit those officers.

[blm]

380. I appreciate the additional perspective...

that's one arena where I willingly admit that I know very little.

[Matrosov]

286. Pretty good if shooting with a handgun at +100 yards

From what I understand, the effective range of most handguns is 30 yards. At +100 yards it's easy to shoot wide or short even when you're firing at a larger target like a crowd. I doubt the average two-bit criminal can pull that off without being very lucky. Hence my rifle theory.

[jberryhill]

293. The problem is that we do not know what the shooter was attempting to accomplish

People get killed by random rounds fired in the air on New Year's Eve, and at considerable distances.

From the fact that two police were shot, the conclusion that the shooter was attempting to shoot any cops at all is merely an inference.

[sir pball]

326. Handgun caliber carbine, most likely.

A rifle to the face would be lethal or at least massively, weeks in hospital, traumatic, and apparently both officers are out already. On the other hand, a handgun at 500 feet would be pure luck for even the most skilled marksman. Eliminate the impossibles and what remains is a pistol-caliber rifle.

[Glassunion]

358. That's exactly what I was thinking.

I never studied the ballistics of a carbine. But I'm assuming higher velocity, but not near that of a rifle. Hence the accuracy over the distance, but not as deadly.

[sir pball]

366. Yep.

I'll admit I own one (no need to judge, it's locked in a safe that's locked in a storage unit behind a gate in a state where it's legal), a bit more powerful upfront and accurate enough well past 100 yards.

Thankfully, with the way unaerodynamic handgun bullets shed speed, by 150 yards it's more very nasty and less insantly lethal. I cringe thinking of the next nutter grabbing an AR or deer rifle

[Glassunion]

368. I'm still thinking that it's a R'winger.

Just my opinion. I've been wrong in the past.

It screams of someone taking advantage of the situation.

[sir pball]

371. I totally agree.

I should have said RWNJ instead of nutter, too generic

[Glassunion]

373. Don't forget that dude here in PA with the deer rifle.

He assassinated that state trooper with one, then led them on a manhunt that went on for ages.

[sir pball]

376. Was he a winger?

I definitely remember the case but I can't recall his politics...living in Altoona for four years cured me of any illusions of the liberalism of Pennsyltucky, so it wouldn't surprise me.

[blm]

381. Yes, he was - and used the ambush style. Laid in wait.

That was also part of the govt. reports - the lone wolf and individuals operating on their own are typical of the RW extremists.

[sir pball]

385. That's core to the entire winger mentality.

I read freep once a day or so (I have a strong stomach and like to know my enemies), they love the phrase "rugged individualism" even more than Mom and apple pie. Small surprise they're all lone wolves, and a good thing too - I'd start to worry if they organized on a large scale..

[Glassunion]

415. Yeah.

Afraid the government was gonna come for him.

[Kurska]

29. I think that would be a convenient thing to believe to fit the narrative we all want.

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 01:20 PM - Edit history (1)

However, there is currently zero evidence pointing towards any group or persons. Even if the media is jumping to the conclusion it was protesters.

[blm]

46. I offered the prospect on the STATISTICS used by DHS and police chiefs

in their most recent reports on the targeting of law enforcement.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html
>>>
"Despite or, perhaps, because of its loose organization, the sovereign citizen movement has become a major concern for local, state, and federal law enforcement. On the most basic level, sovereign citizens don’t believe in taxes, government, or the authority of any official above a county sheriff. They are known for perpetuating so-called “paper terrorism,” filing hundreds of pages of nonsensical paperwork to local courts in an effort to avoid something as simple as a parking ticket, or submitting fake property liens or tax forms designed to destroy an enemy’s credit or get them audited.

Sovereign citizens are not explicitly violent, but over the past few years the number of lone wolf attacks on law enforcement by followers of the movement, have prompted the FBI to consider sovereign citizens a major domestic terrorism threat. This summer, the University of Maryland’s National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism released the results of a study finding sovereign citizens are perceived to be the single greatest threat to law enforcement, above Islamist extremists and patriot or militia groups."
>>>

[Kurska]

49. And that doesn't prove anything about who did it this time.

As much as you would like to jump to conclusions, if anything most cops are killed by petty thieves and other criminals, not politically motivated individuals. The majority of cop deaths are most certainly not caused by right wing extremists (or extremists of any kind).

[blm]

88. First - I didn't say it's already proven. I offered the possibility based on DHS stats

and from reports from police chief groups.

Some of you need to pretend I declared these groups guilty when I clearly wrote that they COULD BE a possibility given the statistical threat put forth by DHS, police chief groups and even the FBI.

Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?

The top cop-killers ARE RW extremists. I didn't say the majority of cop deaths are RW extremists.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html

[Kurska]

92. It is also possible they were shot by ISIS or North Korean infiltrators.

Right now we don't know jack about who did it.

[blm]

123. Were ISIS and NK infiltrators ahead of US extremists DHS' list of copkillers?

.

[hack89]

302. How far behind RW extremist was number 2? and three? nt

[blm]

367. Here's a link to study you might be interested in….

http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>

[hack89]

369. It says nothing about threats to police

yes, they are the biggest terrorist threat. But there are non-terrorist threats that pose much greater dangers to police.

[blm]

386. Reports I've been seeing consistently point directly at anti-government crowd.

https://publicintelligence.net/dhs-domestic-violent-extremists-enemy/

DHS Warns of “Domestic Violent Extremists” Targeting Government Officials, Law Enforcement
August 14, 2014

An intelligence assessment from the Department of Homeland Security demonstrates law enforcement’s growing fear of violence from “anti-government” extremists emboldened by the recent standoff at the Bundy Ranch in Nevada.
An intelligence assessment released July 22 by the Department of Homeland Security Office of Intelligence and Analysis warns of an increasing trend of “anti-government violence” from what are described as “domestic violent extremists” inspired by the recent standoff at the Bundy Ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada. The report, titled “Domestic Violent Extremists Pose Increased Threat to Government Officials an Law Enforcement,” was originally obtained and published by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, a non-profit alliance of local state and federal resource professionals that has been advocating for criminal charges against Cliven Bundy and “militia snipers” involved in the April standoff with the Bureau of Land Management. In recent months, the report suggests that there has been a notable increase in violence from domestic extremists motivated by “anti-government ideologies.” Compared to the previous four years, DHS assesses that the “perceived victory by militia extremists in a show of force against the Department of Interior’s Bureau of Land Management (BLM) will likely inspire additional anti-government violence over the next year.” The report reflects a current trend in the national law enforcement community that views the rise of domestic extremist groups, variously referred to as militia or anti-government extremists as well as sovereign citizens, as a significant threat to the safety of government officials, law enforcement and first responders. In fact, a recent survey conducted by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START) at the University of Maryland found that law enforcement throughout the country identifies sovereign citizens as the top terrorist threat, greater even than the threat posed by Islamic extremists.

Domestic Violent Extremists and The Victory at Bunkerville

Though law enforcement agencies have been warning for years of the potential for violence perpetrated by members of the so-called sovereign citizen movement, who believe that the U.S. government is “operating outside of its jurisdiction and generally do not recognize federal, state, or local laws, policies, or governmental regulations,” the DHS’ recent assessment does not focus on members of this group. Instead, the assessment focuses on domestic violent extremists motivated by “anti-government ideologies” and a common perception of “government overreach and oppression.” Unlike sovereign citizens, these groups and individuals “recognize government authority,” however they may engage in acts of violence due to “their perception that the United States Government is tyrannical and oppressive” and “needs to be violently resisted or overthrown.” The assessment also refers repeatedly to “militia extremists” who are defined as facilitating or engaging in acts of violence “directed at federal, state, or local government officials or infrastructure in response to their belief that the government deliberately is stripping Americans of their freedoms and is attempting to establish a totalitarian regime.” These individuals often “oppose many federal and state authorities’ laws and regulations (particularly those related to firearms ownership), and often belong to paramilitary groups.”

The DHS assessment finds that a “recent spike in anti-government attacks and plots since November 2013? is a departure from the previously sporadic occurrence of “domestic extremist violence.” The increase is believed to be motivated by “perception of government actions (or lack of action) addressing political issues such as gun control, land-use, property, and other activities as interfering with their individual rights and as oppressive measures that warrant violent reprisal against US Government entities and law enforcement.” Historically, spikes in violence have followed “high-profile confrontations” involving the U.S. government including Ruby Ridge and Waco. DHS identifies the recent standoff with BLM agents in Bunkerville, Nevada as an example of such an event that could “inspire further violence”:
>>>>

[hack89]

390. What group(s) are actually shooting police?

common criminals far and away are the real danger. Actual terrorist attacks are extremely rare. Criminal violence is an everyday occurrence.

[blm]

393. RW extremists operating as individuals or lone wolves.

Why don't you search out the information to your satisfaction one way or another?

I posted my opinion of what could have gone down and I posted enough links to government studies and articles reporting those studies of which my opinion was based.

Many posters here said their initial thoughts were similar. Do they deserve some of your attention?

Surprised that some of you are so dug in that you lost sight of why DU allows people to post what they think, and, usually finds it acceptable if they post reference links.

[hack89]

395. You have posted nothing on RW terrorist actually shooting cops

not a single statistic of the number of cops shoot and who shoot them. It is your claim. Time to presents some actual numbers. How many cops were shot last year? What percentage were by RW terrorists? Two simple questions.

[blm]

399. Bill Moyers Aug2014:

"The US features a unique and toxic mix of gun culture and militant anti-governmentalism. As a result, police officers aren’t entirely wrong to believe that they’re operating in a potential combat zone.

Although motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death for cops on the beat, an average of 57 police officers were killed with guns in the US annually between 2001 and 2010; of the 17 members of law enforcement killed in Ireland since the end of “The Troubles” in 1998, only two were gunshot victims (one in a case of friendly-fire).

Fifty-seven may seem a relatively small number in a country of over 300 million, but many more officers are wounded or fired upon (there are no nationwide statistics for these lesser incidents of gun violence).

Police in the US also face a unique challenge — and singular threat — from anti-government extremists. No other police force in a functional democracy has experienced something like the Bundy Ranch standoff in Nevada in April, where federal agents found themselves outgunned by heavily-armed militias — which included well-trained military veterans — holding the strategic high ground.

As the Southern Poverty Law Center noted last week, a new report from the Department of Homeland Security found that, “after years of sporadic violence from domestic extremists motivated by antigovernment ideologies, there has been ‘a spike within the past year in violence committed by militia extremists and lone offenders who hold violent anti-government beliefs.'” Last month, a survey of 364 officials from 175 law enforcement agencies conducted by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Response to Terrorism (START) found that members of the Sovereign Citizens movement are now considered to be the greatest terrorist threat faced by law enforcement. Third on the list, after Islamic extremists, were members of militia and “patriot” groups.

Since 2002, Sovereign Citizens have killed at least ten members of law enforcement, and failed in a number of other attempts, including two potentially deadly incidents in the past three months alone. And while most are nonviolent, with an estimated 300,000 members of the Sovereign Citizens in the US, only a fraction need to take up arms and target law enforcement to constitute a danger to the police."
>>>>>
That report, from last Aug, obviously doesn't include the latest shootings like in Penn and Texas. Surprised you never heard of any this. It was posted about during the Bundy ranch drama.

[hack89]

402. So a very small percentage of cop killings involved domestic terrorists

that's what I thought.

[blm]

403. there aren't that many cop shootings and cop killings….

But, why pretend that the shootings that do occur, including killings that specifically TARGETED law enforcement, are negligible, when they are NOT?

The people who are HUNTING law enforcement are mostly RW extremists. Random shootings that are based in intercepted crimes, for example, are not cops being HUNTED or targeted specifically for being law enforcement. Most guys robbing banks were not doing so to HUNT police.

Perhaps you don't want to grasp that point?

[hack89]

406. One out of fifty annually according to your post

10 killings in 12 years. The odds that any given cop killing was done by a domestic terrorist is pretty low according to the facts you posted.

[blm]

407. It's increased in recent years.

A point you want to ignore.

And you are singling out killings, when the incidents of shootings and attempted shootings have also contributed to the perception by law enforcement and those studying the issue that the greatest threat to their personal safety are RW extremists?

Who specifically TARGETS law enforcement?

If you want to opine that RW extremists are not the greatest threat to the personal safety of law enforcement, then offer what YOU think they should feel threatens them the most?

[hack89]

411. Common criminals kill more cops than any other group

Followed by crazy people. Which makes perfect sense when you think about it. We know that domestic terrorists are very low on the list - you have already proven that.

[blm]

412. Common criminals are not HUNTING the cops they encounter.

They do not lay in wait and ambush them.

Common criminals don't set out to KILL a cop. They set out to commit a crime and then react to being intercepted.

Who TARGETS cops, specifically.?

[hack89]

413. That is a meaningless question

because the number of cases of police being targetted is so small as to be meaningless. 10 cases in 12 years according to you. When a cop goes to work even day he is not worried about a domestic terrorist killing him - he knows what the real threats are.

[blm]

414. No - I said there have been more recently - and the numbers Moyers

uses does not include all shootings and attempts, it only includes kills and were prior to the recent spate of killings in Penn, Florida, and Texas.

When a cop goes to work every day, if he is trained properly with current information, he knows the predators targeting him for BEING a law enforcement officer are most likely to be RW extremists.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/7855500-Fla-man-who-ambushed-cops-had-anti-government-beliefs/

[hack89]

416. You said there have been more but you refuse to provide any evidence or numbers

I am not going to just take your word for it.

[blm]

419. Go look them up, Las Vegas, Texas, Penn, Florida - You're just effin around at this point.

As if you never read the reports when they happened. Go catch up with recent events. I'm not your monkey.

[hack89]

425. Your claim. Your burden of proof.

I think you are just making shit up.

[blm]

431. Then you are not reading the links and haven't watched news in the past year.

And, obviously have never supported SPLC.

[hack89]

433. You provided the links demonstrating how rarely RW terrorists shoot cops.

you have been trying to move those goal posts ever since.

I happen to agree with the SPLC that RW terrorist are the biggest terrorism threat in America. But even they don't say that they represent a significant overall threat to police. And it was your links that confirmed that fact.

[blm]

443. They are the only ones TARGETING LEO's.

Sorry that you feel not enough have been killed and shot at to warrant your interest.

Moving on.

[hack89]

450. You want to ignore the vast majority of cop killings

your casual denial that they are somehow less significant than a handful of killings at the hands of terrorists is appalling. Can you at least pretend you are motivated by actual concern for the lives of policemen and not your political agenda?

[blm]

452. Baloney. Situational shootings and TARGETED shootings aren't the same and

if you want to pick a fight and insist that they are, then have it with DHS and Police Chiefs. http://www.standard.net/Police/2014/06/17/Police-wary-of-becoming-targets-of-radicals

Considering the fact that you claim to be unfamiliar with even the recent spate of attacks on LEO's since Bundy standoff, then perhaps you should pick up a mirror and ponder your own motivations here.

You can have your last word on this exchange - I'm moving past you.

[hack89]

453. Dead is dead. Split hairs all you want but terrorists are the least of a cops daily threats. nt

[Lurker Deluxe]

461. From your link

"It is unclear if the danger from such people is on the rise. Federal officials said they have not seen any movement when it comes to the threat from anti-government extremists. “There is no uptick or specific threats at this time,” one high-ranking law enforcement official told The Washington Post."

So ... it's an if this happens maybe this will be true but only if this other thing doesn't materialize and blah blah blah.

You can pretty much find a report that says damn near anything, except these reports you keep citing do not back up your claim.

[blm]

462. and then Texas, Florida and Pennsylvania ambushes happened soon after...

Nothing to see here.

[Lurker Deluxe]

464. Please link these ambushes you keep speaking of.

I am really not familiar with them.

[blm]

465. Seriously?

That would explain a lot.

Here's recent events just in Florida. Ya know, you can google law enforcement shootings anti-government extremists just as easily as I can. Thought everyone knew about the ambushes in Pennsylvania, though.

https://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/dhs-violence-stemming-from-sovereign-citizen-extremist-ideology-ramps-up-in-2015-with-targets-on-backs-of-all-cops-as-3-recent-florida-ambushes-indicate/

[cali]

71. uh, no STATISTICS there. far from it.

[blm]

134. DHS Report on domestic terrorism, cali. Ever heard of it?

You think those articles made up the report? You think the police chiefs article made up the DHS report they refer to? You think SPLC made up the existence of the DHS report when they wrote about the political suppression of the report?

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2011/summer/inside-the-dhs-former-top-analyst-says-agency-bowed

Inside the DHS: Former Top Analyst Says Agency Bowed to Political Pressure

Daryl Johnson has been battling extremist groups for two decades. He got his start in the field in 1991, when he worked on counterterrorism for the U.S. Army. In 1999, Johnson left the Army for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, where he was a subject-matter expert on violent antigovernment groups. In 2004, officials at the newly created Department of Homeland Security (DHS) approached Johnson to take a key post as the senior domestic terrorism analyst. He accepted and, for six years, Johnson led a team of experts on domestic extremist groups.

While at DHS, Johnson and his team wrote the April 7, 2009 report, "Right-wing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment." The report, which was intended for law enforcement only, was quickly leaked and caused a firestorm among some on the political right who accused DHS of painting all kinds of conservatives as potential Timothy McVeighs. In fact, it had merely pointed out that some domestic extremists focused on single issues like immigration and abortion and also noted that extremists were interested in recruiting military veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. Its analysis of the causes of the surge of right-wing radicalism — the election of the nation's first black president and the economy, among other things — still seems completely accurate and is in line with similar findings by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

But DHS ultimately reacted to criticism from conservative columnists and groups like the American Legion by withdrawing the report. (Ironically, given the criticism of his report, Johnson describes himself as a registered Republican who "personifies conservativism.&quot In the months following the leak, Johnson says in the interview below, DHS gutted its domestic terrorism analysis unit.

Events in the immediate aftermath of DHS' suppression of its report seemed clearly to exonerate its conclusions. In late May 2009, abortion provider George Tiller was shot and killed by an anti-abortion fanatic — just the kind of person the DHS report had warned of in one section. In June 2009, neo-Nazi James von Brunn killed a security guard at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., while trying to storm into the building. Many similar attacks and planned attacks by the radical right have followed, right up to the present day.

Since leaving DHS last year, Johnson has formed a company, DT Analytics, to consult and offer training on issues related to violent domestic extremism and homeland security. He also is writing a book that he hopes will set the record straight on what really happened at DHS as well as help state and local law enforcement officials better confront the continuing threat of domestic terrorism.
>>>

[Lurker Deluxe]

149. no statics there either

You have provided nothing to back up your claim that RW groups are the "top killers" of LEO.

[blm]

189. Pretty sure I posted links...

Are you of the mind that DHS report was NOT based on statistics?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/politics/terror-threat-homeland-security/

Did you miss this one?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html

adding DHS report: http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

[Lurker Deluxe]

238. Look

If there are statistics, link them, point them out, do something.

Posting the same link to nothing over and over does not prove your point. I simply do not have the time, or inclanation, to follow links in links to get to something that is not there.

This is what statistics look like:

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html

Out of the 1501 deaths of LEO in the past decade (2004-2013) 549 of them have been from shooting, out of that 9 ... NINE, in other words 9, have been from terrorist attacks.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2013-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted

"Circumstances: Of the 27 officers feloniously killed, six were killed in arrest situations, five were investigating suspicious persons or circumstances, five were ambushed, four were involved in tactical situations, four were answering disturbance calls, and two were conducting traffic pursuits/stops. One was conducting an investigative activity, such as surveillance, a search, or an interview."

Again, what statistics look like. No mention of RW Extremists yet ...

So, if you have a link to actual numbers, please ... just post it.

[blm]

245. DHS Report.

(U//FOUO) Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political
Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment

http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

The articles I linked to referenced this report.

[hack89]

303. It does not say they are the number one threat.

it doesn't even specifically address the threat to police.

The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific information that domestic rightwing terrorists are currently planning acts of violence,

Threats from white supremacist and violent antigovernment groups during 2009 have been largely rhetorical and have not indicated plans to carry out violent acts.

[blm]

318. that was the 2009 report that was the original basis….

Search picks up very few references - it's an unpopular subject in the corpmedia.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/politics/terror-threat-homeland-security/

A new intelligence assessment, circulated by the Department of Homeland Security this month and reviewed by CNN, focuses on the domestic terror threat from right-wing sovereign citizen extremists and comes as the Obama administration holds a White House conference to focus efforts to fight violent extremism.

Some federal and local law enforcement groups view the domestic terror threat from sovereign citizen groups as equal to -- and in some cases greater than -- the threat from foreign Islamic terror groups, such as ISIS, that garner more public attention.​

The Homeland Security report, produced in coordination with the FBI, counts 24 violent sovereign citizen-related attacks across the U.S. since 2010.
>>>

http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat


Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014Jessica Rivinius
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>>

Reports were prior to recent events targeting of law enforcement (Pennsylvania).

[Lurker Deluxe]

370. No statistics

Everything you refer to goes back to the same report, which is a survey of the apparent threat of various group.

Let's look at the report you are so obsessed with.

First thing.

"web-designed survey to two separate groups of law enforcement personnel"

"first group included individuals who had attended training through the Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism"

"second group consisted of individuals who had received training from the School of Criminal Justice at Michigan State University. Funded by the Department of Homeland Security"

So, anyone who had taken this survey had to have attended special training covering the specific threats of specific groups as determined by that curriculum. I am sure they trained a lot of people though. Right?

"operated from 2005 until 2011 with over 4,500 officers"

Well, not really.

The thing you keep referencing is not a statistical evaluation of actual crime, it is a survey of 374 LOE persons, which represents less than 1/16 of 1 percent of LEOs nationwide, and all of the people taking the survey had been through classes telling them who the threat is.

And, less than 67% of those responses were from "sworn" LOE agents. So, answering questions that are answered with: strongly agree/agree/nuetral/disagree/strongly disagree the testers managed to say with a 3.2 out of possible 5 that Sovereign Citizens was a threat. With 52% agreeing and 34% strongly agreeing.

If you take that report to heart and consider Sovereign Citizens as 3.2, than Extreme Environmentalists are 78% the threat at 2.51 ... which is just absurd. But hey Black Nationalist sit at 2.34 or 73% as dangerous as SovC. Again, absurd. But hey ... Extreme Animal Rightists top both of those with a 2.54 rating.

Your initial claim was that these RW groups are killing the majority of police, and you cite this junk report as proof.

Sorry ... you are just wrong. And this report you keep using to push this is garbage.

[cali]

70. precisely. I hate that shit.

[Jamastiene]

30. I would not doubt that. n/t

[Codeine]

32. I think it was the Semiconscious Liberation Army

backed by the Boy Sprouts and the Orbital Mind Control Lasers.

[romanic]

33. I'll wait for the facts.

I need my tin foil for dinner later tonight.

[mwrguy]

35. gun nuts going nuts with guns

[closeupready]

36. I don't know, but is it possible - well in Nevada last year, those two were far right-wing agitators

who sought to precipitate a race war; ditto Timothy McVeigh. And that cult book he read - forgetting the name at the moment - the entire story was about that very thing - a race war in the US instigated by some kind of sniping incident. (And of course CONVERSELY, the DC snipers' agenda (who were both black) was ALSO to incite a race war. So the very idea is NOT wildly novel or weird.)

I think it's safe to say that everyone here condemns these shootings, but this is a discussion board where everything and anything is potential fodder for 'speculation', even baseless speculation (as some here are implying).

Those here who are reflexively dismissing your theory are very naive, IMO.

[blm]

59. They are also dismissing the reports of DHS and police chief groups

who clearly stated that these RW extremists are the greatest threat to law enforcement in this country. Anytime there is a cop shooting it is absurd to suspect RW extremism? Is that the 'smart' position? Is there a sound statistical basis to immediately dismissing RW extremists from police shootings? Not one has presented a counter study or statistic to support their attacks on the post.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html

[closeupready]

93. Don't worry - most of those who've chimed in with one-liners are the same ones

of whom I've long held suspicions as to their motives here, or political leanings.

[Man from Pickens]

37. my first thought

was that it could resemble the Ukraine coup situation where snipers were hired to shoot at both sides to stir shit up and make peaceful resolution impossible

There are people who make a hell of a lot of money off of conflict, domestic as well as foreign.

[chillfactor]

38. That was my first thought as well....

shots did not come from protesters but several yards away...guess we will just have to wait and see...

[samsingh]

45. the rw is clearly at fault and they could have done this to increase gun sales

[packman]

48. Honestly -

I admire the restraint of the Furguson black citizens. Maybe police chiefs should look in their own ranks for RW extremists in police shootings.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

50. JURY RESULTS:

On Thu Mar 12, 2015, 09:43 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I'm gonna say it: I think cops could have been shot by RW agitators
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026354088

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

please!

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Mar 12, 2015, 09:53 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "please!" is now justification for an alert?
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: While I'm sure the dildos over at Conservative Cave are having a good laugh over this, I don't see how it violates the TOS.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter needs to provide more information as to why this would warrant a hide. The poster is expressing an opinion based his or her research of conservative fear-mongering.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[closeupready]

54. Jury gets another one wrong, as an anonymous "please!" is quite persuasive.

[pintobean]

58. A lot of effort went into that alert.

[FSogol]

64. A lot of work went into that alert, please!

[pintobean]

77. I'm alerting on this.

Who knows, I might get lucky.

Man. your recent hide was bad.

[FSogol]

86. You'll have to wait your turn, I suspect. Thanks though, I find the hide funny.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

113. Incredibly stupid alert. LOTS of that going around. nt

[leveymg]

295. ALERT ABUSE. Someone wants DU to shut up off all conversation except official announcements.

"Please!," indeed.

[OnyxCollie]

60. Creative speculation. nt

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

199. You can bet the FBI is "creatively speculating" too. That's their job.

[OnyxCollie]

404. Let's hope they use the appropriate forum (creative speculation) for such tasks. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

62. 4 out of 5 weak, timid minds agree.

The fifth one is playing with his feces.

[NuclearDem]

67. Oh dear.

[GoneFishin]

72. It's speculation. Having said that, rightwingers are generally quicker to resort to violence to try

to fabricate scenarios which will comport with the imaginary world inside their head.

We don't have any facts at this point. But if it turns out to be true then I will not be one bit surprised.

[cali]

73. Or maybe it was the cops who shot their own to make the protesters look bad.

and that's no more absurd than your theory which you have no evidence for. You keep going on about statistics supporting you, but you offer NO STATISTICS.

[pintobean]

83. It was the cops, but as fake as the moon landing.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

204. So cops are a bigger danger to cops than sovereign citizens or ISIS? Talk about absurd logic.

[perdita9]

76. Cops should at least be open to this possibility...

...but should rely on evidence for the final verdict.

[Lurks Often]

81. You WANT it be by a RW agitators because it fits your bias

and you'll cherry pick your links and anything else that supports your wild speculations.

[cali]

91. yep, yep, yep. I have a particular disdain for that shit.

[Lurks Often]

95. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for an apology post if he is wrong

[blm]

153. Why? DHS, FBI, and police groups have RW extremists at top of list

for threats to law enforcement. Why should I offer an apology for considering that the top of that list might be the perpetrators here?

Why do you feel it's offensive to consider the possibility and that an apology would be due if the perpetrator is found to be someone else?

[Beausoir]

177. Oh, it's a false conclusion and will be proven so.

[blm]

235. It wasn't a conclusion - I said I think it COULD HAVE BEEN

and gave sound references for why I think the possibility is worth considering.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

208. He can't be wrong - he said it was a possibility and it surely is!

The logic exhibited through this entire thread is crazy!

[Rex]

212. A few people are having a meltdown in this very thread!

HOW DARE YOU HAVE AN OPINION THAT IS WRONG! Funny thing, it is all the posters (except one) that I learned long ago to ignore. They just cannot be taken seriously, based on their replies. OR they really are 13 years old.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

218. It is quite shocking!

[closeupready]

230. "all the posters ... I learned long ago to ignore." Yes. Same here.

I used to have many of them on ignore, but now, they just make me giggle.

This is how they get their kicks - spending their lives on message boards, posting sarcastic one-liners. Sad in the sense that life isn't forever, but in a free country, people are free to waste their lives on message boards posting one-liners, so I'm free to giggle at their patheticness.

Cheers.

[Rex]

236. Yes thankfully we live in America.

Much better to laugh then be frustrated and lets face it - their one and only goal is to frustrate the people that post here. Like you, I just laugh and stay amused at their attempts now.

[Joe Chi Minh]

103. So, what you're saying is: Nothng to see here. Move along?'

Use of 'agents provocateurs' by authorities , whether governmental or demonic, private 'deep state' cabals, in order to discredit protestors, is hardly novel or uncommon; presumably, what the police meant when they said it was the right-wing they feared most.

[Lurks Often]

110. I so love the wild speculation without facts here

[blm]

194. Strike off first suspect on list of threats to law enforcement as speculation.

Good call.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/politics/terror-threat-homeland-security/

[Lurks Often]

206. More noise. If you are wrong, are you going to post an apology?

[blm]

209. Why? I didn't declare them guilty - I considered the possibility based on

established reports.

Why do you need to pretend otherwise?

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/08/07/645421/right-wing-extremism/

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

210. Speculation DOES NOT REQUIRE FACTS! Jeebus!!

[blm]

141. Nope - RW extremists are on top of FBI, DHS and police chief lists.

It is now absurd to say that the possibility that the top threats to cops as determined by FBI, DHS and police chief groups should even be considered?

[Throd]

159. Like many here did for the Boston Marathon bombings.

Maybe it was some Klansmen straight from central casting, but I'll wait 48 hours and see what develops.

[Lurks Often]

237. I remember that too. Me I'll wait for some more facts as well

[Octafish]

87. FBI considered use of snipers for some reason during Occupy.

FBI Document—“(DELETED)” Plots To Kill Occupy Leaders “If Deemed Necessary”

By Dave Lindorff
June 27, 2013 WhoWhatWhy.org

Would you be shocked to learn that the FBI apparently knew that some organization, perhaps even a law enforcement agency or private security outfit, had contingency plans to assassinate peaceful protestors in a major American city — and did nothing to intervene?

Would you be surprised to learn that this intelligence comes not from a shadowy whistle-blower but from the FBI itself – specifically, from a document obtained from Houston FBI office last December, as part of a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request filed by the Washington, DC-based Partnership for Civil Justice Fund?

To repeat: this comes from the FBI itself. The question, then, is: What did the FBI do about it?

The Plot

Remember the Occupy Movement? The peaceful crowds that camped out in the center of a number of cities in the fall of 2011, calling for some recognition by local, state and federal authorities that our democratic system was out of whack, controlled by corporate interests, and in need of immediate repair?

That movement swept the US beginning in mid-September 2011. When, in early October, the movement came to Houston, Texas, law enforcement officials and the city’s banking and oil industry executives freaked out perhaps even more so than they did in some other cities. The push-back took the form of violent assaults by police on Occupy activists, federal and local surveillance of people seen as organizers, infiltration by police provocateurs—and, as crazy as it sounds, some kind of plot to assassinate the “leaders” of this non-violent and leaderless movement.

CONTINUED...

http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/06/27/fbi-document-deleted-plots-to-kill-occupy-leaders-if-deemed-necessary/

Secret Police. Secret Spying. Secret Laws. Secret Detentions. Secret Torture. It's not a pattern, though.

[Dreamer Tatum]

90. Those are the most authentic-looking docs I have ever seen. nt

[Octafish]

100. They're from the FBI.

I'd tell you to talk to them, but they're probably already listening.

[Dreamer Tatum]

112. Of course they are. That's why they look so authentic. nt

[NuclearDem]

98. Yeah, that's not what those documents said.

[Octafish]

104. No? What do they say, then?

[NuclearDem]

114. That the FBI had information on someone planning to engage in sniper attacks against OWS.

Where on earth Lindorff gets the "FBI was plotting" bit out of that is confounding.

But then again, the guy thinks the Boston Marathon bombing was a CIA false flag attack.

[Dreamer Tatum]

136. Stand by...new CT loading...nt

[Octafish]

196. As opposed to finding information to refute?

The ad hominem.

[Rex]

205. HA! Goodluck with that!

I agree they have become complacent with intellectual laziness.

[Octafish]

219. The hypocrisy is a tell.

Demand of others that which one is unwilling to do for oneself.

[Rex]

232. Oh I know and everyone sees it, not like it is hard to notice.

I've watched you untold times tell someone to refute your claim with proof, only to be met with non-sequitur after non-sequitur. They've grown lazy, arrogant and rude. I just stopped replying to them, what is the point? The sure don't have one besides disrupting.

[Octafish]

239. From the Congressional Record:

ARTICLE ARCHIVE

From 1992: On the floor of the House, an exasperated Henry Gonzalez exposes the first Bush administration's longstanding support for Saddam Hussein, and the insanity of imperial war.

THE BANCA NAZIONALE DEL LAVORO SCANDAL:

HIGH-LEVEL POLITICS TRY TO HIDE THE EVIDENCE

Henry B. Gonzalez, (TX-20)

(House of Representatives - September 14, 1992)


The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Dooley). Under a previous order of the House, the gentleman from Texas is recognized for 60 minutes.

SNIP...

You had E. Howard Hunt. The only thing I know about E. Howard Hunt was 2 years ago in July, in fact July 14, I go back to my district every weekend, and I came in that Saturday morning. I arrived at the San Antonio Airport, and there was a couple there that used to be in my district and moved to a small town up in what we call the hill country.

They recognized me and said, `Oh, Congressman. How are you? We are so glad to see you.'
I saluted them and addressed them. I was leaving when this individual comes up. I had never met him before, but from his pictures and all I could tell that what he said was true.

He said, `You are Congressman Gonzalez?'

I said, `Well, I am E. Howard Hunt, and you are nothing but a--' and then he used a bad word.
Well, I had two little bags I was carrying, very small, so I just dropped them. I noticed he had a shoulder holster with a pistol. It was obvious.

So I said, `Mister, since you want to use sailors' language, here is what I think of you.' And then I used some choice words.

I said, `Let me tell you something else. You take one step forward closer to me or you make a move for the gun in your shoulder holster, and I will swear to you I will take it from you and in self defense I will kill you with it.'

He looked at me startled, turned around, and walked away. I picked up my bags and walked out of the airport.

That is all I know. Now, was he E. Howard Hunt? Well, he sure looked like him. What was his beef? I do not know. What was he doing in San Antonio? I do not know. Why does he still have a shoulder holster and pistol? I do not know. He is ex-CIA. They say ex, but there ain't no such thing.

(Page: H8353)

SOURCE: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/congress/1992_cr/h920914g.htm

Mr. Gonzalez was a man, a patriot, and one brave fellow. He was a real American. Couldn't stand time wasters.

[Dreamer Tatum]

291. Arguing a CTer is like pushing on a string. No point to it.

Even on the odd chance that you realize you're full of it, you'd either change the subject or tell me I'm part of the conspiracy.

[Octafish]

314. I don't know why I bother to be nice to you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3414820

[Octafish]

195. Where would he get that idea?

EXCERPT...

Lindorff's report indicated that Houston police claim they were never warned by the local FBI office of the assassination plot. Lindorff notes that law enforcement agencies in Texas have received sniper training from Craft International, the shadowy mercenary-for-hire organization that is based in Dallas, Texas. Craft was founded by the celebrated Army sniper Chris Kyle, who was shot and killed at a firing range last year by a fellow Army veteran. Craft has a contract funded by the Department of Homeland Security to provide training to law enforcement throughout the country. Last year, a state border patrol agent in Texas trained by Craft fired from a helicopter at a moving truck carrying nine illegal immigrants, causing the vehicle to crash, killing two and wounding a third.

Craft International employees were spotted working at the Boston Marathon during the bombing the government claims killed three persons and wounded more than one hundred others. Lindorff was unable to obtain a comment from the company on their work training Texas law enforcement agencies.

One of the Occupy Movement leaders, Remington Alessi, who may have been one of the targets of the assassination plot, told Lindorff that he was not surprised to learn of the plot. "I wish I could say I’m surprised that this was seriously discussed, but remember, this is the same federal government that murdered (Black Panther Party leader) Fred Hampton," Alessi said. "We have a government that traditionally murders people who are threats. I guess being a target is sort of an honor." Paul Kennedy, a Houston area attorney who represented several of the Occupy Movement protesters arrested during the protests, had not heard of the plot. “If it had been some right-wing group plotting such an action, something would have been done," Kennedy said. "But if it is something law enforcement was planning, then nothing would have been done. It might seem hard to believe that a law enforcement agency would do such a thing, but I wouldn’t put it past them."

CONTINUED...

http://advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2013/06/fbi-uncovered-plot-to-assassinate.html?m=1

Wasn't that American Sniper guy's company in Texas? Seems those hats have the same logo.

[NuclearDem]

213. Actually, those are members of the Massachusetts National Guard's WMD-CST.

National Guard does get called in to provide security at major events like the Super Bowl and Boston Marathon by virtue of their being high value targets.

And I don't necessarily consider damning evidence to be that two guys had similar types of backpacks. Backpacks are mass produced, they do tend to look similar through grainy security camera footage.

[Octafish]

216. MNG.

Gotcha.

I mean, Roger.

[NuclearDem]

222. What, that's it?

I mean, come on, even InfoWars has since backed off the Craft/Blackwater angle.

[zappaman]

260. Now you're posting Alex Jones bullshit?

That's where that picture comes from.
Not surprised since you don't seem to care how heinous your sources are.

[Octafish]

310. No. It's from Imgur.

Instead of smearing me, stick to the facts.

[zappaman]

324. I'll stick to the facts.

Here's a link to Alex Jones site.
You know, the guy that posted this shit?
Oh look, there's the picture you posted.
http://www.infowars.com/navy-seals-spotted-at-boston-marathon-wearing-suspicious-backpacks/

Tell me how I smeared you, my friend.
I'm not the one who posts things from homophobes, anti-Semites and wacko assholes like Alex Jones...

[Octafish]

327. I didn't post anything from Alex Jones, zappaman. You did.

Why do you do that?

[zappaman]

333. Actually you did as I showed.

The fact that you seem to not own up to it is odd.
Why do you do that?

[Octafish]

344. Not at all. Why does that photo bother you so much?

Someone on this thread said it shows some national guard guys from Massachusetts.

I thought they were employees of Craft International, based on their skull logo visible on the hats and back packs. I wrote about it on DU a ways back:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3387887

Are there are other photos from that horrible day in Boston that you know about, which show national guard guys from Massachusetts or people from Craft International, zappaman?

[zappaman]

347. I know you don't care if you post bullshit.

You've demonstrated that numerous times, but just to set the record straight.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/boston-navy-seals.1411/

Oh look, it made the list of dumbest conspiracy theories about the Boston bombing.
Congrats!
http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/04/17/the-4-dumbest-conspiracy-claims-about-boston/

[Octafish]

359. Alex Jones? Skeptical Libertarian? zappaman, why?

No thanks for the links.

[zappaman]

364. Sorry I showed your Boston Bombing false flag theory to be bullshit.

I don't blame you for not looking at the evidence when it conflicts with your fantasies.
Do you think Sandy Hook was a false flag as well?

[Octafish]

372. Why attack me, zappaman? They're your links and sources.

You may think they're interesting contributions, but I don't think you add anything. But, that's you, zappaman.

[zappaman]

375. No problem. You never admit when you're wrong.

I guess it was someone else that posted this bullshit?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6355130

Your sad attempts at diversion are hilarious.

[Octafish]

396. Except the picture is from Imgur.

Is finding posts that show you know your way around right wing nut job web sites all that smart?

People on DU might get the wrong idea about you, zappaman.

[zappaman]

398. Except it originated with info wars which you are pretending not to know.

And yes, I do know about shitty sites like Infowars and the jackoffs that repeat their bullshit.
I don't think I have to worry about people getting the wrong idea about me, Octafish of DU.
I'm not the one posting nonsense like you did about Boston being a false flag attack.
Nor do I post articles from homophobes and anti-Semites.
Why you do, I have no idea.

[NuclearDem]

409. You seem to really know your way around the antisemitic hateosphere.

[zappaman]

263. Can you point out where in that memo it says

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 05:03 PM - Edit history (1)

"The FBI considered use of snipers during occupy"?
Take your time...

[Dreamer Tatum]

299. Somehow in all of this FBI evilness they still manage to release an incriminating doc IMMEDIATELY

upon getting a FOIA.

That alone is worth the price of admission to dealing with nutball CTers and their bullshit.

[Octafish]

313. Last I heard, a Federal judge ordered FBI to release more info.

Though the documents largely detailed how the FBI, Department of Homeland Security, U.S. military and private corporations had flagged Occupy Wall Street protesters as “domestic terrorists” and “criminals” in order to spy on them, there was one paragraph on page 61 that caught the group’s attention.

“An identified [redacted] of October planned to engage in sniper attacks against protesters in Houston, Texas, if deemed necessary. An identified [redacted] had received intelligence that indicated the protesters in New York and Seattle planned similar protests in Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin, Texas. [Redacted] planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via suppressed sniper rifles.”

A few pages later is this sentence: “[REDACTED] interested in developing a long-term plan to kill local Occupy leaders via sniper fire.”

Since the document was heavily redacted, which is rare for FOIA requests, it’s not known who made the threats against Occupy, but thanks to a doctoral student at Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, Mass., that may soon change.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/fbi-continues-to-withhold-information-on-occupy-assassination-plots/187109/

Still waiting.What do you know about the matter, zappaman?

[zappaman]

316. So the memo doesn't say what you said it said.

Thanks for admitting you made it up.

[NuclearDem]

331. Wow, you realize that article does in no way confirm your spin of an FBI plot.

[zappaman]

334. Of course it doesn't.

But you won't get an admittance of that.

[Rex]

94. LOL! I see the Flat Earth Society chimed in about the horrors of you having an opinion!

HORRORS! Someone is...OPINING...in GD!

THIS WILL NOT DO! CALL IN THE FLAT EARTH SOCIETY!

[cali]

105. Opine away, but if you don't provide any evidence for a theory, you're gonna get shit.

and blm refuses to post the supposed statistics she keeps rattling on about.

[Rex]

119. Oh I will! I won't let some authoritarians tell me what I can and cannot do on this site.

You guys are really embarrassing yourselves over an OPINION! You know...a subjective statement? You've been told many times by the OP they are going by information from law enforcement...to base their opinion. Why you and some here pretend the OP made a solid claim based on facts...is something only you know. Normal people just have conversations.

It is sad watching supposed adults freakout about and OPINION...but please proceed, I wouldn't want to be seen LIKE YOU as one trying to control the flow of conversation.

[cali]

147. no one has told you any such thing. I have a particular bias against people trying to

fit things into their preferred narratives. And that's precisely what I think the OP is doing. And yes, I actually believe that opinions should have some foundation in fact. shocking, ain't it?

Oh, and take a look at your post, dear friend. You damn well are trying to control the conversation. None so blind....

[Rex]

203. Nope I said I would NOT do what you are doing. Read it again.

Well I am sorry you don't like other people speculating in GD or having an opinion that you don't like.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

215. Theorizing and speculating are 2 very distinct things.

He was speculating - no evidence required. Actually, no rules at all.

[blm]

250. DHS Report, cali

http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

[calimary]

107. My husband just said the same thing - about 10 minutes ago.

These folks DO INDEED indulge in tactics like this. They're the ones with the james o'keefes and other phony-ass dirty-tricksters and "gotcha" sting-schemers on their team. I wouldn't put it past them. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this is what happened.

This is the team that thinks you have to put your thumb on the scale in order to win. Why wouldn't they try to pull shit like this, if they're convinced it'll make the other side look bad and set the other side's agenda back, while pushing theirs forward and giving it sympathy and more mojo with the public? Why wouldn't they? It's not beyond the realm of possibility.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

[GoneFishin]

220. Yep. I don't mind admitting to speculation. My basis is knowledge of the personalities involved and

a strong opinion that more right-wingers are willing to lie and cheat to attain their goals, in this case, to make peaceful protesters look bad.

[calimary]

305. I totally agree with you.

We shouldn't merely not be surprised by it. We should expect it. And be prepared for it - and to combat it.

It's just the baser part of human nature, seems to me. People who know they can't win by the numbers still want to win. And if they know they can't win without some sort of trickery or rigging the game or messing with the odds or gaming the system, then there are - and always will be - those among them who'll decide that's what needs to be done.

[GoneFishin]

308. Yes. The concept of honesty and fair play is foreign to them, or they consider it to be a weakness

to be exploited.

[blm]

312. It seems that wondering about the possibility would be considered normal.

Those quickly jumping to their claims that it's absurd seems abnormal, to me.

[cali]

108. You keep rattling on about statistics supporting your, uh, theory, but won't post them.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

223. He never said it was a theory - give it up! You are being very disingenuous.

[Vinca]

109. I have to admit . . . that very thing crossed my mind.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

111. Your post, I can still see it LOL I remember someone who suggested the cops started the fires

there way back when, and he was silenced quick.



Oh god, what a fucking joke.

Anyway, at this point anything is possible, of course.

If this is ALL that happens, well (can you IMAGINE if roles were reversed)

Anyway, I want to find out what we are going to do about the other 2,478 police and sheriff departments nationwide who are as guilty as Ferguson for racism, huh? My number is a guess, probably more.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. When the perps are caught and turn out to be common criminals...

When the perps are caught and turn out to be common criminals the next theory will be they are patsies.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

117. very possible.

Some people here are angry about speculation?

How do you function without speculation? That's what ideas are--speculation.

If you're wise, you don't go running off a cliff over speculations, but you can research and find out if the idea is valid.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

124. And whose head here didn't the thought pop into?

It sure popped into mine.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

140. Like I said. My first thought was "KKK".

[Duval]

150. It is not beyond possibility.

We have had instigators in the past. I wonder if we'll ever know. It's interesting that I heard this supposition on Thom Hartmann just a few minutes ago.

[jillan]

151. First thought I had.

[AgingAmerican]

154. It's a valid possibility

I can see right wing extremists doing something stupid like this to spark a fantasy war like Tim McVeigh did. They are known for doing shit like that.

[still_one]

162. I can see an anarchist doing it also, along with an angry person who hates cops

The possibilities are endless, which is why this is like guessing the number of teeth in a horses mouth

[AgingAmerican]

197. Also very true

Anarchists always make a mess of things when they invade protests here. It could also be some gang kids or something.

[still_one]

156. Nope. Speculation is unwise in these incidents.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

228. Why? Unwise for who? Speculation is the same as wondering.

I wonder if ........ Nothing wrong with being aware and interested... and wondering.

[blm]

253. It's not exactly wildly speculative, still….

There's a sound base for considering the possibility. No more. And certainly no LESS.

http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

[Cryptoad]

165. Such speculation serves no positive purpose! Sad

[DemocratSinceBirth]

167. "Shooters are punks trying to sew discord in the community."

-Attorney General Eric Holder.

"Pure Ambush."

[A-Schwarzenegger]

172. I'll needle to see a citation for that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

176. It was his contemporaneous remarks that I did my best to transcribe at approximately 11:10 A.M. PST

I suspect CNN will have it up on its website soon and I will link it.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

178. I was just kiddin you about the sew/sow.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

181. I saw what I did./NT

[notadmblnd]

174. Who would have more motivation to sow discord? African Americans or disgruntled right wingers?

Who have been the ones with the itchy trigger fingers since the whole Mike Brown murder occurred?

[blm]

192. Could be - certainly possible

I wouldn't rule it out.

No fair-minded person would.

[ColesCountyDem]

184. Confirmation bias?

Seeing what you want to see, perhaps?

[blm]

211. No. I have posted about the DHS report here the last few years.

Whenever there are police shootings it reminds me of the report that was suppressed and why it was suppressed.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/08/07/645421/right-wing-extremism/

[ColesCountyDem]

226. You misunderstand.

In the absence of evidence, you choose to hope it's the folks you dislike.

[blm]

231. I am saying, "No, I am not." I am saying that it could have been based on

the increased concerns of experts in the field who put RW extremism at the top of their list of potential threats to law enforcement.

What part of that has escaped your notice?

[ColesCountyDem]

300. It could also have been Elmer Fudd.

There's just as much evidence.

[blm]

301. Were there recent reports issued on Elmer Fudd targeting law enforcement?

The reports and articles on the reports are included in my OP.

[ColesCountyDem]

311. That's not evidence, unfortunately.

Evidence is fingerprints, shell casings, projectiles, eyewitnesses, DNA, etc. . You knew that already, of course.

[blm]

323. I never claimed there was evidence. I never made any claim to KNOW what happened.

What I wrote is what I think COULD HAVE HAPPENED and based it on legitimate reports from government studies and articles that reported on those studies.

Why you seem to resent that seems odd to me.

[ColesCountyDem]

330. I resent irresponsible speculation about very serious matters, particularly when they're nearby.

Is that so difficult to comprehend?

[blm]

335. My concerns are no different than law enforcement's. There was nothing irresponsible in the

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 07:37 PM - Edit history (1)

post.

http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

[ColesCountyDem]

341. The law enforcement actually INVOLVED in the investigation has alluded to nothing of the sort.

But again, you already knew that.

[blm]

343. Why would they? You really believe that not one of them

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

or FBI have considered the possibility similar to what I posted, when they are far more familiar with the studies generated than I am?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6355602

adding:

http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>

[ColesCountyDem]

353. I suspect that while they considered many possibilities, they had the good sense not to speculate.

Furthermore, if you knew anything about the area in Ferguson where the suspect lives, you would know that the chance that the suspect is a RW-er are about the same as the chance that purple dragons will erupt from Justice Ginsburg's rectum.

[blm]

354. I know what I've been reading in various government reports and

from SPLC and articles discussing the studies related to the increase in RW extremists targeting law enforcement - My post on this was perfectly legitimate.

This is a political discussion board. Those investigating the case would not be doing so here. My post was well within the bounds of discussion, and was not hyperbolic in the least. The links deserve to be read by more politically aware citizens.

You're welcome.


http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>

[ColesCountyDem]

357. So, you admit you know bupkess about this particular crime?

Thank you for publicly acknowledging that you know nothing about this crime.

[blm]

361. Why would you have to know about THIS crime only to

offer a reasoned possibility based on studies and reports from government agencies and organizations dealing with law enforcement concerns?


http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>

[blm]

362. "…pose the greatest threat to their communities…."

You can pretend they didn't include Ferguson as one of the communities, but, what good what that do?

[ColesCountyDem]

374. Because it WASN'T reasoned, that's why.

As I mentioned previously, the search for the suspect was already on when you posted this, and no one with even slight knowledge of the area in question would speculate about a RW group being involved. That was left to the folks who think irresponsible speculation is just fine.

[blm]

377. I have been reading these reports for decades.

I have been posting articles and reports on the issue here for over a decade. So have many other DUers.

I was well aware of the recent studies and law enforcement's concerns.

There is nothing irresponsible about what I posted, so you have to pretend I claimed knowledge of the geographical area.

sorry - I forgot that it has been proven that there are no RW extremists in that county. You showed us that, right?

[ColesCountyDem]

379. It was irresponsible, because you had exactly ZERO evidence that RW-ers were involved.

You can continue to try and put lipstick on the pig that is your OP, but it's still going to be a pig.

[blm]

382. Didn't claim I had the evidence. I clearly based my post on current LEO concerns

and govt. reports and articles referring to the studies. See all those links?

You need to pretend I claimed otherwise so you could feel your attacks are warranted.

[ColesCountyDem]

384. How well you do parse!

Lest we forget, this is the header for your OP: I'm gonna say it: I think cops could have been shot by RW agitators

You are (sic) 'gonna say it'. You 'think' the injured officers 'could have been shot by RW agitators'.

Clearly, you did not think at all, although you most certainly DID speculate in an irresponsible manner.

You need to pretend that you didn't make a jackass OP.

[blm]

388. So you see the words "think" and "COULD HAVE BEEN"

and replaced them with 'MY Evidence proves RW extremists shot cops.'

In your own head.

[ColesCountyDem]

389. I did nothing of the sort.

I pointed out your misuse of the word 'think', and you don't seem to like it.

[blm]

391. LOLOL -

Yeah - the words 'I think' do tend to signal that there will be a dogmatic statement coming immediately after it.

To those comfortable with games of pretend.

I am comfortable saying what I THINK because I know what I think is based in reality. Perhaps if you had spent years reading various govt reports and articles, and years supporting efforts of SPLC, you might THINK along the same lines and wouldn't be so uncomfortable with the opinion offered.

[ColesCountyDem]

426. You shouldn't be comfortable saying it

You keep glossing over (or deliberately ignoring) a very important factual error in your post, and want others to do the same: at the time of your irresponsible speculation, there were already MSM news reports about the responsible law-enforcement agencies searching a residence and where that residence was located. Additionally, you hope that people reading your OP will also ignore or be unaware that error.

Does your years of reading government reports indicate that any neighborhood in Ferguson MO is a hotbed of RW activism in any way whatsoever? If so, please link to said report.

[blm]

430. I never said that area was a hotbed of RW extremism.

And I clearly said that it COULD HAVE BEEN. Whether there were early reports of a search of a residence or not it would have absolutely no influence on what I posted. Early reports also implied the shots came from protestors. I wrote down what I THINK IT COULD HAVE BEEN…..and gave references to back up why the possibility could be considered.

BTW….. LOLOL at your assertion that it is irresponsible of ANYONE to not immediately swallow the early reports and post their own thoughts on what COULD HAVE happened. Gee…this couldn't possibly be a Discussion board for critical thinkers or something, could it?

Time to move on.

[ColesCountyDem]

440. I'll move on when I damn well feel like it, thank you very much.

What it's time to do is for you to admit that your OP was irresponsible, ignorant speculation.

[blm]

444. There is nothing ignorant about it, you know it, and can't stand that

someone here, as well as scores of other members, chose to NOT SWALLOW the initial 'theories' being reported, based on other prevailing factors that exist in this country. Initial 'theories' is all anyone had, because of the distance of the shots and no one who actually SAW the shooter.

Your attacks are an insult to the purpose of DU.

I am moving past you.

[ColesCountyDem]

445. Your irresponsible, ignorant post is an insult to the purpose of DU.

There was nothing informed or informative about your post-- just the opposite.

[blm]

448. Then alert on the OP and take it down.

Or …. try to summon up the maturity to deal with the fact that many here at DU also had similar thoughts about this shooting and move on.

[ColesCountyDem]

456. No, thanks.

I'm enjoying reading the posters in this thread who agree with me. As far as maturity is concerned, pot, kettle, black.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

233. Too many thick heads in this thread. Might as well move on before my head explodes.

[blm]

247. FAS link on DHS Report:

http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

Just in case you're interested.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

255. Oh, I'm very familiar with the report. But I'll look again, thanks.

Seems like some here had never heard of it and don't believe it.

[blm]

262. Graphic here on RW's increased targeting of police.

I don't post pics, but, would welcome that assist.

http://blog.adl.org/extremism/officers-down-right-wing-extremists-attacking-police-at-growing-rate

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

264. Here you go!

[blm]

277. Thank you - deserves its own thread.

How some people are arguing against the legitimacy of the possibility is mind boggling.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

283. Not a lot of Rocket Scientist makeup in this crew!

The logic employed, and the twisting around what you said has to be coming from some RW trolls. I've never seen anything like it.

[blm]

289. Pretty amazing sight

that's for sure.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

259. Now if only cali was interested enough to read it, but her mind seems closed on the issue.

[closeupready]

267. Interesting, that - she comes in, creates drama and noise, demanding statistics and facts,

denouncing all "creative speculation" of any kind ...

But when queried in response, vanishes...

Nice work if you can get it, huh...

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

269. She seems to "protesteth too mucheth".

[ChisolmTrailDem]

187. I'm gonna say it: I think the shooter was one of the

republiclown senators who signed that letter to Iran in an attempt to distract Twitter from calling them out.

My evidence is that #47Traitors and #IranLetter was trending for two days and now #FergusonShooting is trending and those other two hashtags are not. Mission accomplished, republiclown PR people!

[Lurks Often]

240. My money is on the Illuminati, aliens and the Masons

[marym625]

201. Though I doubt it, I wouldn't put anything past them

[DesMoinesDem]

248. Well if there was some report that said that rw extremists are are a threat to police

then obviously some rw nut shot these officers. I see no holes in your thinking. The evidence is basically bulletproof. I think police should reopen that police shooting in NYC from December. Obviously the guy they think killed those officers didn't do it because he wasn't a rw extremist. And as you know some report says rw extremists are the biggest threat to police, therefore they commit all police killings.

[blm]

252. No. Why would anyone use the word 'all' based on the findings of DHS report?

http://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

No report and no post has ever claimed that the report should be taken to mean that ALL cop shootings are carried out by RW extremists. Why create the claim to form your reply?

[DesMoinesDem]

254. Oh, so the report just says RW extremists are guilty of this particular shooting?

Or all shootings in Ferguson? I'm a little confused, can quote the part of the report that mentions this shooting? Thanks.

[blm]

256. Who has claimed that about this shooting?

No one has - perhaps you're more comfortable constructing straw men so you can play on the field you WANT to play on instead of the one that exists?

[DesMoinesDem]

265. Oh, so you're not actually claiming that RW extremists did this shooting? What is the point

of this thread?

The shooting could be a rw extremist. The shooting could be a lw extremist. The shooting could be, and most likely is given the setting, someone mad about Michael Brown's death. The report that you cite is completely irrelevant to this case and provides no information that will help find the shooter. Do you agree with all of this?

[blm]

296. Wow - stick to flailing at the straw men you create.

Looks like you're more comfortable arguing with yourself.

[DesMoinesDem]

309. Obviously you are trying to avoid answering my questions with your red herring.

The shooting could be a rw extremist. The shooting could be a lw extremist. The shooting could be, and most likely is given the setting, someone mad about Michael Brown's death. The report that you cite is completely irrelevant to this case and provides no information that will help find the shooter. Do you agree with all of this?

[blm]

321. No - I don't agree with 'all this' you wrote.

I think it is definitely possible that it could be someone angry at the death - and I would never dispute that possibility.

The reports are quite relevant that RW extremists happen to be targeting law enforcement officers AND the uptick in volume from RW extremists furthering the specter of 'race war'.

How do YOU know what is 'relevant' to this case when you don't even allow your mind to accept the reality of the DHS reports warning about this very problem with the RW extremists?

[DesMoinesDem]

351. A report from 2009 from DHS is in no was relevant to a single shooting today.

The overwhelming majority of crimes committed against police officers do not come from any group of people, let alone right wing extremists. They are committed by individuals. To take some report from 2009 that says RW groups are a danger to cops and conclude that this crime was probably committed by a RW group is beyond stupid. It's laughable. Do you think the detectives working this case think a DHS document from 2009 that says some group that is responsible for a tiny fraction of crime against police officers is relevant to the case? I can guarantee they don't. No one does except you and a small number of other people that let their biases get in the way of their brain.

[blm]

356. LOL - Apparently you didn't bother to read

The links provided in the studies and reports. They specifically stated that the RW extremists usually operate individually.

""The report was titled “Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment,” and it named white supremacists, radical anti-abortionists, and a few “disgruntled veterans” as most susceptible to recruitment by extremist groups, or to harboring resentment that may lead to domestic terrorism. DHS stressed that, during recessions, these threats go up, and law enforcement should be on the lookout for such extremism:

DHS/I&A has concluded that white supremacist lone wolves pose the most significant domestic terrorist threat because of their low profile and autonomy—separate from any formalized group—which hampers warning efforts..
Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities.

The report’s findings were congruous with previous studies that indicate right wing extremism is responsible for more instances of violence every year (with the exception of 2001, when the September 11th attacks happened) in the United States than Islamic extremist. It also tracks with the rise of hate groups in the US since 2000." >>>

[DesMoinesDem]

383. LOL. If all you could respond to from my post was one cherry picked word you have lost

Then argument. I didn't say they worked as a group, i just referee to all RW extremists as a cagorized group that you can lump together. Apparently you didnt even read the sentences that you quoted. It is about terrorism. Almost all violence against cops is NOT committed by terrorists. You're assuming that these cops were shot by a terrorist because of a report about terrorism. LOL.

[blm]

392. Wow. That's how you see it, huh?

You're dug in for your own ego, at this point - and it's not worth it arguing with someone who ignores government studies and reports.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

261. Really odd logic. Why don't you go have an ice cream cone or something?

[Octafish]

483. 2010: 'Christian warrior' militia accused in plot to kill police

Militia leader's son arrested late Monday

Indictment says suspects plotted to kill Michigan law enforcement officer, attack funeral

Indictment unsealed charging nine people with seditious conspiracy

Eight of nine in custody; one is a fugitive, prosecutors say

(CNN) -- Nine people federal prosecutors say belong to a "Christian warrior" militia were accused Monday of plotting to kill a Michigan law enforcement officer and then attack other police at the funeral.

Six Michigan residents, two residents of Ohio and an Indiana resident were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, U.S. Attorney Barbara L. McQuade and FBI Special Agent in Charge Andrew Arena announced.

All but one of the suspects -- Joshua Matthew Stone, the 21-year-old son of the militia's leader -- were in custody by Monday morning and seven of them made their initial appearances before U.S. Magistrate Judge Donald A. Scheer, prosecutors said.

Joshua Stone was arrested late Monday after he walked out of a mobile home in southern Michigan's Hillsdale County and surrendered without incident, FBI spokeswoman Sandra Berchtold told CNN. Five other adults and a child were also at the home, she said.

"We were negotiating with him all days from a staging location near a church," Berchtold said, adding that authorities used a loudspeaker to draw Stone out.

Stone, who will be arraigned Tuesday morning, is the son of David Brian Stone -- leader of what prosecutors say is a Lenawee County "Christian warrior" militia group called the Hutaree.

CONTINUED...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/michigan.arrests/

[backscatter712]

257. It's a good bet. Klansman with a high-powered & scoped hunting rifle.

Learning to shoot at long distances isn't black magic - a little training and practice, which one could acquire hunting deer and such, would do it.

[DesMoinesDem]

270. Released from the hospital hours after getting shot in the face with a high-powered rifle? LOL

[GusBob]

273. It's part of the plot

they weren't gonna kill their own, just flesh wound them


/sarcasm/

[GusBob]

258. The victims have been released from hospital, shell casings recovered

The cops are going to be ok which is good.

They think the shooters used a handgun.

[malaise]

268. I do wonder

Real strange

[moondust]

271. Certainly possible.

I don't know why anybody would rule it out. Authoritarians could use some sympathy after recent protests, DOJ report, Ferguson resignations, Iran letter backlash, etc.

[LittleBlue]

274. Why don't we wait to see the evidence?

You're jumping to conclusions before we have evidence

[closeupready]

281. "Why don't we wait" ... to what, have discussion on a discussion board? Reasonable.

Do you realize that this is the very purpose of a discussion board - to discuss stuff?

[LittleBlue]

282. This is a conspiracy theory

You can discuss whatever you want, I won't stop you. Just know that injecting a conspiracy theory into this with no evidence makes you look bad, that's all.

It looks kooky as hell

[closeupready]

288. Disagree. Conspiracies, by definition, posit participation of more than one participant.

The 'creative speculation' of the opening post does use plural tense, but as I've argued repeatedly here in this thread, there have been lone actors, particularly Timothy McVeigh (though as I recall, there was involvement of someone else...?), Norwegian sniper Anders Breivik, in addition to some conspiratorial crimes, such as the Malvo/Williams sniping, or the Nevada libertarians who were going to start a race war.

You characterize this as 'kooky'. I guess we live in a kooky world, or a kooky nation.

Peace.

[blm]

290. The consideration of the possibility is based on REAL law enforcement concerns not theory...

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 07:22 PM - Edit history (1)

The OP makes that clear.


http://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat

Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat

New study assesses top threats, preparedness among law enforcement

July 30, 2014
Sovereign citizen, Islamist extremist and militia/patriot groups are perceived by law enforcement agencies to pose the greatest threats to their communities, according to a new START study. While sovereign citizens were the top concern of law enforcement, assessments about whether most groups were a serious terrorist threat actually declined for most groups (e.g., the KKK; Christian Identity; Neo-Nazis; Racist Skinheads; Environmental Extremists; Animal Rights Extremists) when compared to a previous study.

START researchers David Carter, Steven Chermak, Jeremy Carter and Jack Drew recently conducted in-depth surveys with more than 364 officers representing 175 state, local and tribal (SLT) law enforcement agencies to examine perceptions of: the threat of terrorism; the nature of information-sharing; and whether agencies are prepared to deal with terrorist attacks. Their results are published in “Understanding Law Enforcement Intelligence Processes,” available on START’s website.

The Sovereign Citizen movement was the most highly ranked threat, with 86 percent of respondents agreeing or strongly agreeing that it was a serious terrorist threat. This is a significant increase in ranking from an earlier survey implemented in 2006-2007, which showed Islamist extremists to be law enforcement’s top concern at the time. In that survey, approximately 67 percent agreed or strongly agreed that Islamist extremists were a serious terrorist threat
>>>>

[blm]

298. No, I didn't. My post is considering the possibility based on REAL law enforcement concerns.

I never said I concluded anything.

[Rex]

306. I like the fact that you don't take any of their bait and keep posting what you base your opinion on

Notice not a one of them refute what you say, just type juvenile drivel. I have to give credit to NuclearDem...his refute was sad, but at least he gave one!

The rest are just...

[blm]

322. I never had to battle so many straw men here.

I'm used to it battling RWers. They want to question me but won't answer questions posed in reply or offer any reason explaining what I posted is 'absurd' as they claim.

[canoeist52]

442. And isn't it interesting that so many of them carry exactly the same tone.

[SidDithers]

280. Fucking BFEE is everywhere, man...nt

Sid

[kentuck]

304. A race war?

I would not be at all surprised to hear that the cops were shot by some white supremacists.

[moondust]

315. BBC: "heinous assault" that could undermine police reforms

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31853547

Great excuse to ignore "Holder's" reforms and continue with militarization.

[MuttLikeMe]

332. Makes sense to me.

[AngryAmish]

339. Oh boy is this thread getting bookmarked

I love DU!

[Enthusiast]

348. I think you might be on to something.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

355. And it is a TWO FER for the likely white supermacists who did the shooting, put blame on AfAm AND

take spotlight off of #47traitors

perfect fucking timing

[Rex]

378. It is sad watching DUers defend RWing extremists.

Or maybe there is a reason you made them so mad. It is strange watching them dance around and never say anything but insults to the OP.

[NuclearDem]

394. Who the hell is defending rightwing extremists?

Is this the RWing extremist you're thinking of?

[blm]

400. I don't think they're defending RW extremist - I think they want

to pretend that I said what I didn't, and that I didn't say what I did.

And argue from a knee-jerk point of view, ignoring valid references.

[Rex]

421. The ones that disagree with you do for sure.

The others are just concern trolling.

[TheKentuckian]

387. I got to say, any number of things could have happened and I have no clue

as to what at all did happen.

Insufficient data.

[Anansi1171]

397. Thank you! I am suspicious too, though will wait for all facts.

When I get to my desktop I can better reference, but I recall from the Southern Poverty Law Center's website that several prominent white supremacists arrested were involved in amateurish false flags to foment their racial holy war, or such.

Sure, direct anger at the police is the simplest motive of the crime, but Occam's Razor has not yet rendered a RWNJs motive as only creative speculation.

[blm]

401. Yeah - I saw that piece at SPLC a while back.

I am surprised that so many here don't seem to be familiar with these reports.

[Cha]

405. It's totally a possibility and why can't we talk about it? We should just think it and not say a

thing? No, it doesn't work that way.

Thanks for all the links backing up the very strong chance it could be rw extremist agitators, blm.

[blm]

410. I've noticed an uptick on the RW sites making claims about Obama

leading black militias in a race war. And that he has a plan to grab all the property belonging to whites and turn it over to blacks. Propaganda is put out for a reason - to have an effect. I don't ignore RW propagandists. They have firm control over the RW mindset.

[Adrahil]

427. Is there any evidence for it?

Nope. In such a case, I think speculating that this is a "false flag" incident without even a little bit of credible evidence is irresponsible and inflammatory.

And what's there to discuss? It's speculation.... Are you gonna discuss that you have no evidence?

[blm]

434. I backed up why it deserves consideration

as a possibility.

I never claimed evidence, I posted what it COULD HAVE BEEN and why I think it. The reports that the shots came from a distance and not from the gathered crowd, should have given any critical thinker pause.

[Adrahil]

463. Sorry... sounds like the same kind of "false flag" stuff the freepers are always advancing.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it won;t get any further notice from me. I think it's in bad taste, personally.

But if it by some bizarre chance turns out to be true, I'll publicly apologize to you.

[Cha]

420. Look at how many views you have already.. 6284! Somebodies are interested..

[Rex]

422. It's a good thing nobody expects Republican fundamentalist groups

that might cause a huge panic on DU! The website for progressives. Because we love fundamentalism. Yes sir.

[appleannie1]

429. First thing hubby said when he heard about it

was it was probably some white, Republican so-called Christian.

[blm]

437. Many DUers are saying they thought the same - Which is why I find

the intensity of the backlash odd.

[B Calm]

438. Why were they protesting the night the officers were shot? The police chief had just resigned and

the police department was being ripped apart. Looks to me like Ferguson was just starting to heal from all the injustice.

It probably was a racist right-wing gun nut that shot the officers, we'll probably never know the truth.

[blm]

447. Some were protesting for complete change, most were celebrating.

In any case, any time the shots firing at police are from a distance, it would be foolish to not consider the recent ambush attacks on law enforcement by RW extremists. I'm really not understanding why some here are so dug in and resentful that it even is a consideration.

[B Calm]

451. Soon as I heard about the shooting, I thought it had to be a right-wing extremist stirring up hatred

toward the protesters. I wonder how many people in America have the same thought?

[blm]

454. Well, more than the deniers here want to admit.

They prefer to think I developed the possibility in a vacuum.

[malaise]

446. On CNN a few minutes ago one of the guests suggested that the shooter could have been

a white supremacy guy -he listed several possibilities

[blm]

449. Thanks for the update.

I wonder if some here will be contacting CNN and demanding they shut down that guest's ideas immediately and erase the footage.

[closeupready]

466. Snort ... yeah, how about that? lol So funny - this thread is comedy gold

Too bad the subject is so very serious, but from a meta perspective, the likely racists and sock puppets on this thread are downright goofy.

Keep on keeping on, blm!

[blm]

467. grazie

.

[CTyankee]

455. There have been such things as "agents provacateurs" before in history...

[Tara491]

457. The big picture..

This issue represents the small tip of a very large iceberg, to understand how everything fits together I recommend ‘the mental health debacle’, by Matthew Martins.

http://www.amazon.com/Mental-Health-Debacle-Claim-Against-ebook/dp/B00PUHF260/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426249432&sr=8-1&keywords=the+mental+health+debacle

[SCantiGOP]

458. post = paranoid delusion

[Bonx]

470. How do we know the Police didn't shoot themselves ?

/insanity

[matt819]

471. You can unrec this and blast blm for speculation

But you know full well that most people here had that thought as soon as this news went public. The faster this is investigated, the better for everyone.

[asiliveandbreathe]

474. DUers are doing a smash up job pushing back against, IMO

Feigned offense to this article....looks like DU has been infiltrated by RW haters...who are entitled to their opinion just as blm is entitled to theirs...only thing RW extremists reputation precedes them (haters)

IMO what the hell does white supremacist's even mean...whites are supreme? - get a life, not supreme, just white racists and bigots...

I am a liberal because I don't have time to hate....quote Lauren Bacall RIP.....

WE THE PEOPLE can vote for change....we have done it before, we can do it again....

[NM_Birder]

480. hold your breath, maybe eric holder will swoop in with the FBI.

[underpants]

482. The simplest explanation is usually the right one.

Occam's Razor

[Nye Bevan]

484. Guess we'll soon find out (nt)

[Nye Bevan]

485. kick