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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo Even If The President And Kerry Are Successful And Get A Signed Deal With Iran.....
Bibi and the Repugs are cutting it off at its knees from the get go. Just listen to Bibi - he is making a argument that we can't trust it. So it is ineffective from the start.
Is Israel included in the negotiations? Do they have representation in these talks being conducted? If they aren't sitting at the table they don't really have a clue of what is being discussed.
2naSalit
(86,943 posts)The answer is no. And because Bibi is talking out his asshole, which happens to be located in the middle of his face, it's all the more reason to call him out on the whole bloviation tactic. He's here to be the big cheerleader for yet another war of choice whereby he expects to gain more of our tax $$ to prop up his ambitions to rule the middle east by getting us to hand it to him on a golden platter. Meanwhile the RWNJs are wetting themselves in ecstasy over his war drumming.
I'm getting so sick and tired of these f*wads.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)2naSalit
(86,943 posts)what to do with my comment?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It doesn't matter who the PM of Israel may be the Iranian dictatorship doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist.
2naSalit
(86,943 posts)I was stating what portion of my personal disdain for a specific individual who is engaging in a blatant attempt to thwart the efforts of our president from doing what is right rather than in the interests of an errant PM who needs to be voted out of office in his country - the part I would post in public. There are good reasons why the boss of the country about whom nobody can utter a discouraging word is not involved in the negotiations... and I would venture to guess that they are similar to and in partly because of this individual who needs to be disciplined for his blatant act of attempted manipulation. If Bibi were more reasonable, maybe he would be included. You'd have to interview the actors in this play to discern their true reasons for such things as you suggest... and I don't see that event developing in the near future so...
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)What about Israel?
Which country has nukes?
Your defense of Netanyahu/GOPers is hilarious, but predictable.
*flush*
2naSalit
(86,943 posts)I wasn't talking about Iran but some folks seem to think that deflection works with everyone.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no defense for Bibi or what he thinks he's going to accomplish here. And I said nothing about Iran.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Iran has attacked Jews as far away as Argentina. Iran sends weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah. Iran sent weapons and personnel into Iraq to kill US troops and foment the Mahdi militia. Iran uses murder to suppress dissent from its own citizens.
There is nothing/no one in the Iranian dictatorship worth negotiation with.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Israel, on the other hand, launched an offensive against Gaza in 2014.
You've been brainwashed by right wing media and it shows.
Israel is the threat to Middle East peace. They are the ones with nukes. Iran does not posses a nuclear weapon. If anything, they might want to acquire one to defend themselves against the Israelis who have shown a propensity to attack their neighbors.
Now Bibi comes crying to America about nukes.
He should go fuck himself.
Thankfully Obama is rejecting his warmongering fear tactics
Clearly you buy the Israeli/GOP propaganda.
Sucker.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Oh, how cute. Revisionism.
Yeah. Those sneaky Jews -- all 6 million of them -- are going to conquer the hundreds of millions of people surrounding them. That's what is totally going to happen.
By your reckoning since you support the terrorist, homophobic, dictators in Tehran that makes you...
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You've got all the neocon talking points down for sure.
You were probably clapping while the GOP Senator from Israel spoke to the Congress Critters.
Sucker.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)You can't refute the fact that Hamas started the 2014 war with its rocket attacks, Iran funds Hamas and Hezbollah, Iran has repeatedly made eliminationist threats against Israel, they have conducted attacks on Israeli citizens in Argentina and elsewhere, Israel has no capability let alone desire to conquer its neighbors, Iran has attacked US personnel, Iran suppress domestic dissent through murder, Iran is a violent dictatorship.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Americans are tired of getting dragged into wars in the Middle East.
Your boys, Bibi and Boner, want to do just that. They have no alternative to a nuclear deal with Iran.
Israel is the only country in the Middle East with nukes. Israel is occupying Palestinian territory. Israel is also occupying Syrian territory.
Israel is the country that won't sign the NPT and they actually have nukes.
Go spit your GOP talking points some place else.
I ain't buying.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I have no desire for the currency you trade in.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)their talking points.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)FACT they finance hezbollah, islamic jihad and hamas makes them precious little kittens. Obviously the nukes are safe with Israel - that you would be fine with the religious freaks in Iran having them is your problem. All of this is entirely besides the point - Iran is never going to agree to a time limit - they've already refused the 10 year one the President wanted.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Until that happens, countries in the Middle East won't feel safe and might pursue nukes because Israel has shown a propensity to attack their neighbors.
Nobody is saying they're precious little kittens, but what's the alternative to a nuclear deal?
Iran would just ramp up their program and Israel will be even less safe.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)implying they were precious little kittens with "when was the last time they launched an offensive war" nonsense. If I lived in the same neighborhood Israel does, I'd also have nukes and would never give them up - neither will Israel.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)It's interesting that so many people draw a moral equivalence between Israel and Iran.
karynnj
(59,510 posts)The P5 consists of the UN security counsel countries - the US, UK, France, China and Russia - the plus 1 is Germany. This is above Israel's weight class.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Congress hurt the United States and Isreal today.
2naSalit
(86,943 posts)pick up the tab for that... (first two don't count).
But I know that you already know the answer to that.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)I kid you not...
I didn't watch the speech.
He actually told Congress to google it?
KoKo
(84,711 posts)It's about 2/3rd's to the halfway mark on the video...
Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu's full address to Congress
http://www.politico.com/multimedia/video/2015/03/israeli-pm-benjamin-netanyahus-full-address-to-congress.html?ml=tl_4_b
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 3, 2015, 04:52 PM - Edit history (1)
Netanyahus shocking affront: What his stunning speech was really about
The Israeli PM briefly said nice things about Obama, before trashing him and his intelligence for 45 minutes
Netanyahu went on to describe the outlines of the deal, as rumored in the press. If youre really so thankful to the Obama administration for putting its neck on the line in the international community so many times to defend Israel, then the first thing you might want to do is reconsider commenting, before the U.S. Congress, on murmurs thrown around in the press. While the final deal has not yet been signed, he said, certain elements of any potential deal are now a matter of public record. You dont need intelligence agencies and secret information to know this. You can Google it. Yes, and we all know that anything thats Googled is reliable information and merits official denunciation from a friendly visiting head of state on U.S. soil, in a campaign speech. It would be much less insulting if Netanyahu commented in such incendiary fashion after a framework had been reached at the end of the month, but of course that, if it even got that far, would come after the Israeli election.
http://www.salon.com/201
karynnj
(59,510 posts)It is seriously weird that the source for Netanyahu was Google. I wonder if Netanyahu has ever googled his own name -- say with the added words "war criminal". I have seen a lot of pretty nasty things about him on the internet. He could also try "dishonest", "Mean spirited" - in fact, he could limit his source to Israeli media for those two.
karynnj
(59,510 posts)Obama's side to prevent the Republicans from overriding a veto, they can't pass anything to stop it.
I suspect that IF there is an agreement, Obama and Kerry will work hard to make the case to both the American people and to Congress. As Diane Feinstein pointed out -- this is the only real alterntive - Netanyahu did not offer one.
Frankly, this is an effort to avoid a war with Iran - one Netanyahu and others have been pushing for long time.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)A veto of what?
karynnj
(59,510 posts)As it currently stands, this is NOT a treaty and does not need Congressional approval. If Congress passes the legislation requiring Congress approve it, then things get much tougher.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)Personally, I believe that it should be a formal treaty rather than simply an agreement, but I see what you're saying.
former9thward
(32,151 posts)Then why did the White House warn BiBi not to reveal details of the negotiations?
U.S. officials warn Netanyahu on sensitive details
Top U.S. officials ahead of the speech sternly warned Netanyahu not to reveal secret details of the talks, which are entering a crucial final stage, warning such revelations could have a disastrous impact on hopes for a deal.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/02/politics/netanyahu-speech-iran-obama-congress/index.html
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)out of Bibi's mouth..they have dangerous ideas. Fear monger and war monger extraordinaire.
Noam Chomsky: Opposing Iran Nuclear Deal, Israels Goal Isnt Survival Its Regional Dominance
NOAM CHOMSKY: For both presidentPrime Minister Netanyahu and the hawks in Congress, mostly Republican, the primary goal is to undermine any potential negotiation that might settle whatever issue there is with Iran. They have a common interest in ensuring that there is no regional force that can serve as any kind of deterrent to Israeli and U.S. violence, the major violence in the region. And it isif we believe U.S. intelligencedont see any reason not totheir analysis is that if Iran is developing nuclear weapons, which they dont know, it would be part of their deterrent strategy. Now, their general strategic posture is one of deterrence. They have low military expenditures. According to U.S. intelligence, their strategic doctrine is to try to prevent an attack, up to the point where diplomacy can set in. I dont think anyone with a grey cell functioning thinks that they would ever conceivably use a nuclear weapon, or even try to. The country would be obliterated in 15 seconds. But they might provide a deterrent of sorts. And the U.S. and Israel certainly dont want to tolerate that. They are the forces that carry out regular violence and aggression in the region and dont want any impediment to that.
And for the Republicans in Congress, theres another interestnamely, to undermine anything that Obama, you know, the entity Christ, might try to do. So thats a separate issue there. The Republicans stopped being an ordinary parliamentary party some years ago. They were described, I think accurately, by Norman Ornstein, the very respected conservative political analyst, American Enterprise Institute; he said the party has become a radical insurgency which has abandoned any commitment to parliamentary democracy. And their goal for the last years has simply been to undermine anything that Obama might do, in an effort to regain power and serve their primary constituency, which is the very wealthy and the corporate sector. They try to conceal this with all sorts of other means. In doing so, theyve had toyou cant get votes that way, so theyve had to mobilize sectors of the population which have always been there but were never mobilized into an organized political force: evangelical Christians, extreme nationalists, terrified people who have to carry guns into Starbucks because somebody might be after them, and so on and so forth. Thats a big force. And inspiring fear is not very difficult in the United States. Its a long history, back to colonial times, ofas an extremely frightened society, which is an interesting story in itself. And mobilizing people in fear of them, whoever "them" happens to be, is an effective technique used over and over again. And right now, the Republicans havetheir nonpolicy has succeeded in putting them back in a position of at least congressional power. So, the attack onthis is a personal attack on Obama, and intended that way, is simply part of that general effort. But there is a common strategic concern underlying it, I think, and that is pretty much what U.S. intelligence analyzes: preventing any deterrent in the region to U.S. and Israeli actions.
AARON MATÉ: You say that nobody with a grey cell thinks that Iran would launch a strike, were it to have nuclear weapons, but yet Netanyahu repeatedly accuses Iran of planning a new genocide against the Jewish people. He said this most recently on Holocaust Remembrance Day in January, saying that the ayatollahs are planning a new holocaust against us. And thats an argument thats taken seriously here.
NOAM CHOMSKY: Its taken seriously by people who dont stop to think for a minute. But again, Iran is under extremely close surveillance. U.S. satellite surveillance knows everything thats going on in Iran. If Iran even began to load a missilethat is, to bring a missile near a weaponthe country would probably be wiped out. And whatever you think about the clerics, the Guardian Council and so on, theres no indication that theyre suicidal.
in full: http://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/2/noam_chomsky_opposing_iran_nuclear_deal
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)I trust my President in his negotiations. And once signed, I trust that the Iranians will live up to their end of the bargain. And there will be inspections to verify it. Therefore, it is "effective".