We must NOT buy into the narrative that a cop's life is worth more than any other

[ellenrr]

It is fascist.
Cops do not protect you and me.
If you think they do, let me take you on a demonstration.
Cops defend property.

If you are a rich white straight male person who benefits from the status quo - and there are plenty of them here - then, fine, support police.

But if you're not -
then listen to the narrative.
"When a police officer is murdered, it tears at the fabric of society."
Bull!
When a Black person is killed by police because of the color of their skin,
THAT tears at the fabric of society.

Where is the aid that Obama offered to NYC, where is that being offered to the families of Garner and Brown?

And I wish people would stop beginning every sentence with "I condemn the killings of the 2 police officers."
Such a stupidity indicates that there are people who think the killings were a good idea.
No one but the shooter thinks they were a good idea.

So no need to protest declaim and be defensive.

[morningfog]

3. So a cop's life is worth more?

[marble falls]

21. I think that was an incoherant 'yes'.

[RoccoR5955]

82. The elemental value of ANY human body

Is about $4.50.
When it boils down to raw materials, this is all ANY of us are worth.

[Enthusiast]

11. You should clarify your position.

Many of us feel that the lives of law enforcement personnel are no more important than the regular citizen.

To earn an exalted position surely law enforcement should earn it. Earning exalted status would not include beating the mentally ill to death, shooting unarmed suspects and tasing the feeble elderly. Might does not make right.

Remember, law enforcement personnel work for us, the citizen. Not the other way around.

[ellenrr]

51. ++ , also if law enforcement made known their desire to get rid of the

so-called "bad apples" it would make a big difference in how many of us perceive them.

For ex, you got some teachers that are perverts, and molest children.
Can you imagine that other teachers protect them, lie about them, won't testify against them?

Instead - teachers will come forward, they will loudly declaim against the bad teachers. They want to get rid of them, bec. otherwise they could give all teachers a bad name.
They cooperate with authorities in getting rid of the bad ones.

Why don't cops do this?

[Enthusiast]

142. It's that thin blue line that must never be crossed.

They are doing a disservice to their own, in the long run.

[LiberalFighter]

180. That thin blue line indicates corruption. In my mind.

They cost taxpayers money with early retirements resulting in pensions that may or may not be rightly earned.

[ileus]

2. You're right about one thing....they don't protect you and me.

That's up to the individual to take the proper measures to protect your person and the lives of your loved ones.


It could be argued that if a cop can get to the scene of the crime they can and will protect lives.


It can also be questioned that no one thinks shooting cops is a good idea.

[Fred Sanders]

6. Buy more guns and come out shooting?...interesting world that would be with no good cops...

[Savannahmann]

35. My friend, I found you a good cop before, but you haven't responded to it.

Perhaps it was lost in the "My Posts" section. I'll repeat the link here to help you out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025980528

Looking forward to your thoughts on that one my friend.

[Fred Sanders]

45. Interesting world with no good cops at all...or only the odd one here or there is the line now?

Hilarious.

Moving from the indefensible to the just plain ad hoc ridiculous.

[ret5hd]

58. And yet again no real response to the query.

[NaturalHigh]

4. Nobody is saying that it is.

However, when I read things like "there are no good cops," it's time to realize that there is a lot of virulent anti-police hostility here.

[JEFF9K]

9. Hatred of cops, as expressed at this site ...

seems to trump the reality-based nature of Democrats.

[NaturalHigh]

10. Yeah, this is hardly the real world.

[L0oniX]

44. "Hatred"? IMO that is not reality based. Anti bad cop is not hatred.

[JEFF9K]

78. How reality-based is it ...

to give the benefit of the doubt to the lawbreaker in every case?

[Ed Suspicious]

81. I guess when the police kill a man in the streets he takes away the right

of the courts to judge him a lawbreaker, and we do go by innocent until proven guilty. Without a trial there is no proven guilty. The only lawbreaker is the cop in like scenarios.

[JEFF9K]

109. So cops aren't innocent until proven guilty?

[markpkessinger]

251. In most cases, there is no opportunity to prove their guilt . . .

. . . because, as in the cases of both Eric Garner and Michael Brown, the cases are never even tried. And that is primarily what these protests are about!

[Chemisse]

277. Cops are innocent - period, in our current system.

There is no opportunity to find guilt or lack of guilt.

Instead we are treated to a strange kind of logic:

If a cop does something, it is auto-okay, because it was a COP who did it. And hey, cops are heroes, and they risk their lives every day, and bad people hate cops, in fact bad people KILL cops. So it is wrong to bad-mouth them this way. Show them respect; trust them; they are there to help you. And if they shoot you - well then you were a criminal. Because otherwise they wouldn't have shot you. Maybe you weren't doing anything bad that day, but heck, anybody could tell you were scum. So it all boils down to this: You either support all cops and all of their actions - or you are cop haters, (maybe even cop killers!). There is just no in-between.

[malokvale77]

187. This kind of says it all. (nt)

[JustAnotherGen]

111. Innocent until proven guilty

In the case of Michael Brown - he was never convicted of a crime and at the of the confrontation with Wilson his big misdeanor was jay walking.

But a snotty little liar was deliberately and maliciously put before a grand jury and that asshole will never be prosecuted for perjury.

Hope she never jay walks in Ferguson.

[JEFF9K]

122. You think the only witnesses who lied ...

did so in favor of the cop?

[JustAnotherGen]

141. Who knows -but

That one is a proven admitted liar.

And a known racist who pals around on line with people who don't like my kind. So fuck her. I'm gonna be a nasty bitch about her and she's fair game since she isn't a member here.

[JEFF9K]

146. Logic and reality-based thinking are ideals of the Democratic Party, unlike the Republican Party.

You might remember that Mayor Giuliani said there were several people who lied in favor of Michael Brown.

The witness you refer to is designated as Witness #40. It's reasonable to assume, then, that there were at least 40 witnesses and maybe 100 or more.

So each witness may have contributed 1% of the testimony. You can't assume that Witness #40 was so persuasive that her testimony ruled the day. Especially since she was apparently a whacko.

The prosecutor brought in ALL witnesses to testify. Why assume that the grand jury was too stupid to sort them out?

[JustAnotherGen]

147. I'm looking around for that f*ck I'm supposed to give about anything

Give Me Noun! Give me a verb! Give me a 9 1 1 has to say.

You may as well be quoting Sarah Palin.

Where is it?

Logic and reason - she's a racist asshole.

She is.

Go get the smelling salts now. I've insulted your boy Giuliani - who is a disgrace. He's just as worthless as she is.

Logic and reason tells me so. Those thugs and punks all stick together and they always get away with their lies and distortions.
Those punks - They always get away with it.

[JEFF9K]

149. Sorry, but ...

I don't think your logic is logical.

[bravenak]

153. LOFL!!!

[JustAnotherGen]

161. I just want M0rpheus to log on

We need a good old fashioned Gif war!

ETA- did you find that f*ck. I've checked my pockets, the oven, the trunk of my car.. . .

[bravenak]

162. I miss him too.

I thought I had found a fuck in my dish cabinet. But, it was just a joint so I smoked it.

[JustAnotherGen]

163. I'm gonna have some scotch

Because I'm having a meltdown because I can't find it Bravenak. I just - its lost.

[bravenak]

165. I'll have a Hennessy and Coke.

We can have a drink to your lost fuck.

To all the fucks
We used to have
And give throughout the years
I raise this glass
In memory
And unto you give cheers

[JustAnotherGen]

166. Roflmao!

[bravenak]

167. Tee hee hee!!

Fugging Jeff!!

[JustAnotherGen]

169. Well at least he's managed to get us drunk!

You think if I pass out he will draw on my face with Crayola markers?

[bravenak]

170. Yes, I do.

Logic dictates that he must do the predictable thing. He is very serious about being the most logical.
I wonder if he is related to my good friend Joe. They would get along so well. I should hook them up.

[JustAnotherGen]

171. All fair points!

They can have logic wars! Out wit, out last, out play.

Like a spin off of Survivor - to be honest with you.

Hilarity and laughter will ensue. Truthfully and Logically.

[M0rpheus]

175. I haven't really gone anywhere...

[bravenak]

176. Heeeeyyy!!!!

Glad to see you keeping an eye on things around here. They be acting up like it's they job.

[M0rpheus]

177. I'd post more, but this gif would be in heavy rotation:

Would get pretty boring, as I'd have to drop it in damn near every other thread for the last few months..
Just sayin'...

[bravenak]

179. No shit.

I find myself repeating reasonable shit over and over. Thinking about just blue linking back to my old posts just to save time.

[M0rpheus]

183. bravenak's greatest hits!

If you're going to waste time saying it over and over again, might as well waste as little time as possible.

Gotta go grab my chair.

I've got a front row seat for this class...

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

227. I can do that too, you know...

[M0rpheus]

241. Is that... A CHALLANGE?!?!

Last edited Wed Dec 24, 2014, 06:41 AM - Edit history (1)

I've got a gif for every occaision!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

242. Your reputation precedes you, kind sir, I am in no way WORTHY ..... !!!!

I WILL INSTEAD SIT BACK AND ENJOY YOU!

unless you are a rightwinger, then I will do this

[M0rpheus]

250. No need to run! I'm about as blue as they come.

But if you have to be somewhere at the moment, depart.... Dramatically!

[M0rpheus]

173. *Wonders how I got involved in a thread about lost f*cks*

Last edited Mon Dec 22, 2014, 11:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Ah, what the hell, I'll just go with it!



Edit: I'd help you out if I had any spares but:

[JustAnotherGen]

195. Good morning!

That's precisely why I invoked the name of the M0rpheus!

[JustAnotherGen]

158. You are too funny!

Stop! It tickles!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

243. WHere have you been hiding this Morpheus person, this is FUNNY

[JustAnotherGen]

244. He's one of my buddies!

If you go back in the AA group you will see how we make it fun when things are bad! OP took some beatings on this thread as have a few others. Sometimes you need a little fun!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

245. I hear you, been dealing with crap all day...

[JustAnotherGen]

247. Go here!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5997483

Because sometimes you gotta be like -

[M0rpheus]

260. Lawd! this place could use a little fun!

[malokvale77]

188. Of course you don't see the logic.

From your posts on DU, logic has nothing to do with your thinking..

[JEFF9K]

238. Give some examples.

[LeftOfWest]

151. Hilarious!

You are rocking this thread.

JEFF believes in militarization of the police as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025390424#post13

[JustAnotherGen]

157. Oh my gaaahhd! :-)

Thank you for that link!

I still can't believe someone at DU gives a fuck what The Ghoul thinks, says or does - With his latest side piece is!

That man is a disgrace!


And a massive Race Hustler! I think he gets up every day and says - Should I create outrage over homosexuals today? The blacks? The immigrants. Eh better go my old standby. The Muslims. Yeah! Today I'm going to be an asshole about Muslims!

[JEFF9K]

184. You are stalking me?

I don't keep track of anyone's beliefs on this site.

[JonLP24]

156. You reference Mayor Giuliani

Do you think he's a credible source?

Then you must remember his appearance with Michael Eric Dyson
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/11/23/fireworks_giuliani_vs_michael_eric_dyson_white_police_officers_wont_be_there_if_you_werent_killing_each_other_70_of_the_time.html

[JustAnotherGen]

159. I think he does remember it

Its what he holds near and dear.

[JEFF9K]

239. I don't especially like Giuliani.

I like facts, logic, and Democratic election victories.

[JustAnotherGen]

246. Heh heh heh

I like Gifs.

[JEFF9K]

256. Nice, but not relevant.

[JustAnotherGen]

257. You gotta lighten up!

Lighten up! Don't take this so seriously. It's just a web site. It's not real.

Oh my god!

[JEFF9K]

237. Some witnesses said that Brown was shot in the back.

The autopsy proved they were lying. Giuliani recounted this.

[JonLP24]

254. I actually wrote a post to something to that effect

First of all, I think the Rashomon effect was at-play here.

The graph doesn't include shot in the back but the one of the things witnesses agreed the most of on was officer Wilson firing at Brown as he was running away from him--however you can find witnesses that agreed with each other one thing but had different accounts on another--all this happened in a period of 1 minute. I noticed autopsy stated had exit wounds on both sides of a lower arm which means a bullet either eit him as he was running away with his arms at his side or with his arms raised facing the gun.

[uppityperson]

186. why, logically, does having a witness 40 mean there were maybe 100, or each contributed maybe 1%?

And how is it logical to assume Guliani spoke honestly?

[JEFF9K]

200. If you can't see the logic there, I won't waste any more time on you.

[uppityperson]

225. you refuse to clarify? oh. no, I do not see the logic and you don't want to explain how

having 40 means there were 100 or that each of those 40 contributed 1%.
Oh.

[JEFF9K]

233. I'll try again.

If there was a witness #40 it's reasonable to assume that there were at least 39 other witnesses.

It's also a good guess that 40 isn't the highest number, but is somewhere in the middle. So a reasonable guess would be that there were 80 witnesses.

If there were 80, then each witness comprised 1.25% of the witness pool.

In the extreme example of only 40 witnesses, each witness was 2.5% of the pool.

But in any case, each witness was a very small fraction of the pool.

Given that, quibbling about the exact figure is a logic error known as nit picking.

[uppityperson]

234. countering claims not based on evidence is "nitpicking"?

[Madmiddle]

202. An honest prosecutor would not have

allowed this witness, #40, or all the so called witnesses to destify. The evidence at the scene was tampered with, therefore, anyone that touched anything at the scene is guilty of tampering with evidence.

[JEFF9K]

240. Calling ALL witnesses to testify, and letting the grand jury sort it out ...

was the smartest thing to do.

[marble falls]

266. You really believe that 1% of the evidence crap? That's not logical that's rationalization.

[JEFF9K]

267. It's my own calculation.

Do the math!

[marble falls]

268. Its your math, all right. And your own illogic behind it. You seem to think all witnesses are of....

equal weight, and that just isn't so.

[JEFF9K]

271. You don't believe in reasonable assumptions?

I didn't say that all witnesses have equal weight, but if there are, say, 80 witnesses, each one is 1/80 of the witness pool.

It's up to the grand jury to sort them out. You've got a better way?

[marble falls]

272. Absolutely. But not silliness. That's fantatasy. That's just silly. Its a Grand Jury, not a ....

head count. The guy with the most witnesses wins? Please. They may go on the stand equal, they don't come down from it equal. Let alone an attorney or a prosecutor knowingly putting a perjurer on the stand. Suborning Perjury is a very, very serious crime. And it seems the prosecutor used one of two known eyewitnesses to get Mr Wilson off. Unfortunately this one, a liar, out weighed the testimony from the only eyewitness. They weren't in any sense equal. Not even going up to the stand. He was with the victim here and 'known' to the police and the prosecutor's witness - a liar.

I'm done.

[JEFF9K]

275. You are assuming that the grand jury has no judgement or intelligence.

All they need to know is that everyone purporting to be a witness was called.

[Stryder]

276. Thank you...

"Suborning Perjury" that's the term I was brain locked on. My understanding is
that that is just a tad illegal. The prosecutor put a witness on the stand which
by his own admission was full of shit. Where does logic lead us from here?

[marble falls]

278. Suborning perjury. As an officer of the court he is sworn not to put up false witnesses or evidence,

and not to hide evidence or witnesses and to expose exculpatory evidence that speaks to the innocence of the accused. He used false testimony to exculpate wrongly the perpetrator of a homicide.

[L0oniX]

118. Petition to remove innocent before proven guilty from the books then.

[TheKentuckian]

174. What you got there is presumption of guilt. You are already declaring a person in an encounter as

a "lawbreaker" and then your assumptions keep skipping down the yellow brick road up to and including standing up for on the spot executions for "lawbreakers" and treating any story a cop spouts as the stuff of stone tablets brought down from Mt Sinai unless on occasion it is shown to be irrefutably false and then guess what they still get "the benefit of the doubt".

Really being reality based means ascertaining the facts not choosing who to hang the benefit of the doubt on an calling it a day.

There is nothing fact oriented about eating up whatever a cop tells you. In fact, it is stupid these are neither the wisest, nor brightest, and far from the most honest of folk. Just workaday people ready to get off like most but swimming in an isolationist and toxic culture doing a job that attracts some less than desirable elements. The hero worship is very misplaced.

Privileged positions are a logical fallacy and you recognize it but insist on sticking to it for the sacred cow.

Before you bother, I'm not on here trying to paint myself as "reality based" (in my experience those that do are almost always full of shit) nor some neutral Nelly "honest broker". I'll tell you straight up I'm not a fan or a believer in the "few bad apples" canard. I think they are a racist institution, I believe they see themselves as above the law, I do not believe they see themselves as servants of the people but above us, increasingly they operate as occupiers and see the populations as perps until proven otherwise, I believe there is a profound disrespect for the general public, they despise civilian control and oversight, and when push comes to shove little respect much less love for the law except when they are on trigger end of it.

Just be honest about your perspectives with your audience and especially yourself. Own your perspective.

[whathehell]

138. Yeah, but Anti All cops is hatred.

[L0oniX]

140. Are you seeing members saying ALL cops are bad? ...cause I don't see that.

[whathehell]

143. I have seen it, yes. nt

[malokvale77]

190. Link please. (nt)

[7962]

199. Glad to help out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5980619
"So tell me again about all the other good cops? Because I personally think you've proven my point, that there really aren't any good ones."

There are others on that thread as well

[whathehell]

208. Sorry, but going through every post on every thread on

the subject of cops in the last few months would be a tad overwhelming.

I was asked a question and I answered it. You can believe me or not. I don't really care.

[whathehell]

236. You talked to two cops and now you honestly believe

you can draw the conclusion for ALL the hundreds of thousands of police in this

country?

Those cops may 'hate" protesters and their behavior, as you've described it,

sucks, but basic statistics tell us that two out of Hundreds of Thousands

isn't even close to being reliable sample on which to base that conclusion.

[whathehell]

259. I know that and I'm not

in any way denying the awful pattern of shooting young unarmed black men we've
been seeing. The Feds need to investigate and make serious, concrete reforms.


P.S. I also wonder why we don't see the "continuum of force" that's supposed to be used.
If cops see a true threat, and other measures aren't working, they could, it seems to me, just shoot the bad guy in the leg.

What surprises me is that, in all the discussions I've heard in the media, I've only heard ONE person mention the "continuum of force" issue and he was on the radio.

[Yo_Mama]

12. Right. And if we don't value a cop's life, then we can't insist that the cops value others' lives.

I've posted before about my deep concerns over police abuses, and the lack of correction for that inside departments. But the type of sentiments being posted on this forum about police are at times way beyond the pale of decency and even sanity.

We need police. We need well-trained police. We can never get that unless we take their safety very seriously.

A legitimate exercise of police authority is a proxy for the entire community, so random violence against police is indeed an attack against the entire community.

[ellenrr]

53. I don't know what you mean by "legitimate exercise of police authority is a proxy for the

entire community."
def: Proxy is an agent or substitute authorized to act for another person or a document which authorizes the agent so to act.

I suppose you mean that the community authorizes the police to act on their behalf, in legitimate protection against evil-doers.

Supposing that to be true, do you think that when the police act ILlegitimately against certain communities, that that negates the contract?

[malokvale77]

191. That is a question...

they can not answer.

[uppityperson]

135. should we value their lives more?

I've a question about what you write, am seeking clarification, thanks.

"We need well-trained police. We can never get that unless we take their safety very seriously." Does this mean also that we have ill-trained police because their safety is not taken seriously?

I agree that random violence against ANYONE is an attack against the entire community, whether it be school kids, young black kids, or cops.

[marble falls]

23. Hmmmmmm ..... I wonder why that is? They've killed too many unarmed people, maybe?

[1StrongBlackMan]

73. The "there are no good cops" narrative ...

here on DU, tracks closely with the, relatively recent, general, anti-establishmentism that has found its way to DU. There are people here that plainly, and transparently, anarchist, where any and everything, "establishment"/"institutional" must be destroyed in order to preserve "personal liberties."

[NaturalHigh]

75. I hadn't thought of it that way.

You have a good point.

[1StrongBlackMan]

77. Had you noticed the up-tick in accusations of "authoritarianism" ...

in recent years ... these "no good cops" cries are merely the logical extension of what preceded it; where any non-critique of the "establishment", was proof positive of one's bowing to "authoritarianism."

[zappaman]

131. +!00!

[Fla Dem]

85. Sounds like the Tea Party to me. Don't they hate all things government? nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

93. I beg to differ ...

The tea-party hate all things government ... except that part of government that does something for them, as individuals. Further, it isn't/wasn't the tea party labeling everything authoritarianism ... that would be our "libertarian" friends; who, also, hate everything government, except those parts that do things for them, as individuals.

[ellenrr]

100. Your definition of anarchism is wrong. Anarchism is not about destruction, it is about

creating a community/society/state based on mutual help, mutual respect.

"Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates stateless societies often defined as self-governed voluntary institutions, but that several authors have defined as more specific institutions based on non-hierarchical free associations. Anarchism holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful."

Anarchism is about collective action and the collective good. It is not about personal liberties. That would be capitalism.

[1StrongBlackMan]

112. Two things ...

first, in order to establish that "stateless society", the "state" and its apparatus, must be destroyed, no?

Secondly, I have no doubt that the definition you provide is accurate ... in theory; however, those promoting anarchism (not all, or maybe even most; but a significant and active minority) are not so married to social disruption, i.e., violence, to establish that fabled utopian state.

[ellenrr]

114. I grew up in an anarchist/socialist community...

(search Modern School if interested)
so I'm interested in it.
Maybe you've known anarchists who, as you say, "are married to violence"; I haven't known any, and I know a lot of anarchists.
and I personally am not.

Is it possible that you are influenced by the propaganda of "the state", the US govt , which has most people convinced that all anarchists are bomb-throwing radicals with beards?

(I don't have a beard or a bomb.)

I won't say there are NO violent anarchists - there are.
But in my experience very few.

I would be interested in what you base your conclusion on.

Yes "the state", ie the hierarchical state must be destroyed in order to establish a stateless society. But not with violence or force.

There are other ways to destroy something. Hypothetically, if all people stopped believing in capitalism, capitalism would be destroyed. No bombs thrown.
Or like some people interpret "Jihad" to mean - "I must kill the unbeliever"
while Muslims will say it means to conquer our temptations.


I'm more on the "experiential" side of anarchism, than the theoretical, so I don't really know how anyone would think they could bring down the US govt with any means...

[1StrongBlackMan]

119. My experience with/views of anarcharists ....

is not from the "state's propaganda"; but rather, from participating in innumerous protests (in the civil rights area) where there were always a small faction (generally, young, white and angry) that were looking to "take down the system." And this group identified as anarchists.

Granted my experience is limited to my experience ... Perhaps, it was this group that had been influenced by the state's propaganda?

[OilemFirchen]

123. What a unique perspective!

"Anarchism is about collective action and the collective good. It is not about personal liberties. That would be capitalism."

It seems that only this morning capitalism was an economic system, while anarchism was a political one. Paradigm shifts happen so fast these days!

[whathehell]

137. and your definition sounds more like Socialism than Anarchy to me..

I always thought Anarchy was defined as "no government".

[TransitJohn]

152. It's not socialism, it's

my personal philosophy, Communist Anarchism, also know as anarcho-syndacalism.

[Historic NY]

127. You noticed that too.

If every cop walked off the job tomorrow, they think they could survive.

[1StrongBlackMan]

133. I, once, got into a discussion with a "survivalist", who ...

was bragging about his stockpile of rations and ammunition. He was convinced that when the collapse of civilization came, he would be set.

After listening for a bit, I asked him whether he had secured a bunker with naturally defensible space (e.g., a cave, a couple hundred feet off the ground, on the face of cliff) because when civilization collapsed, it would matter how much food and water he had, if he didn't have defensible space, someone (a bunch of folks) would just come and take it from him.

[treestar]

206. I've definitely seen that here

They resent any law enforcement, as if they should be able to do whatever they want to do - not quite realizing that doesn't show "independence of thought" so much as likely criminality.

They suggest that anyone who wants to be a cop must be an "authoritarian" who wants nothing to do each shift but look for people to beat up.

It's probably personal run ins with cops that didn't work out so good for them, and for which we are to assume they were always 100% in the right.

[1StrongBlackMan]

209. What? ...

One can't get in the face of a cop, tell him/her that she/he is an authoritarian f@$%, tell him/her to go F@#% her/himself, and leave the encounter, unscathed?

[treestar]

213. LOL. And yet, the cop I know

I asked him about that, and he believed yes, people can speak to them disrespectfully and they are not supposed to do anything about that - if it's just verbal. Only if a person is harassing someone else verbally could they do something.

But hell, that's just being an authoritarian apologist. I am to believe my relative the cop really just wants to beat people up all day for no reason. And that's why he wanted to be one. I suppose this rule applies to African American cops or female cops too. Not sure as I suspect the broad brush makes them picture all of them as beefy white men.

[1StrongBlackMan]

216. On a somewhat related note ...

I work in HR and I am shock at the number of people that say and do all types of disrespectful crap to their supervisor and are shocked when the supervisor gives them crap assignments, poor evaluations and/or moves to discipline.

I see these as similar situations ... people disrespect cops and are shocked when the cop reacts less than pleasantly.

[treestar]

218. So true. It's always best to treat people well.

It's natural. I have clients who are really nice, express appreciation. It's smart. You do catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[1StrongBlackMan]

228. If nothing else ...

I have taught my daughter: "People, generally, treat you the way they perceive you are treating them". And, relatedly, "Just because you think it, you don't have to say it."

[liberalmike27]

116. The "Why" of the Hate is Most Important

A lot of people here realize that the police are the half of the poor, they hire to protect the rich, and their property. Many of us have seen a lot of laws passed, and the police tasked to harass us, to enforce them, for things we feel should not be illegal in the first place.

The whole "Drug War" is very much at fault in a lot of this. It amounts to a wholesale harassment of the poorest people, who often find themselves in the trade. Usually it's because there is no economic activity, no hope, or no plan to find their way out of bad neighborhoods, and worse situations within the hoods.

When the rulers task the police in attack roles, against people, groups, such as black people in particular, then hatred ensues. It's pretty simple really. Most of us wouldn't like the fact someone just gunned down two random cops, two that might have actually been good ones, since one was Asian, and another looked to be dark-skinned. That said, we can also under the anger of an oppressed and harassed people.

The police, and their leaders, and DeBlasio should along with condemning these acts, seek to weed out bad, racist cops. Cops who are good, should help, because it's those cops that are the problem, not leaders who seek to fix the problem. They are like a virus in the organism. And you get rid of the virus, you don't protect it and keep it in your ranks.

Inevitably this type of attack was sure to come. Likewise, wider societal attacks on powerful figures, politicians, radio hosts, corporate and non-corporate donors who add to our misery will eventually start occurring too. Understand, I'm not encouraging it, but it's just an easy to see Sociological reaction, a next-step to persecution en-masse.

The guy who killed the cops? He was fringe, on the edge, already disenfranchised, and upset. There is an element of the downtrodden that is like that, that is always around, scurrying unavoidably around the edges of society. They are out there, and they usually react at some point, when there seems to be no one out there trying to address the obvious problems, thus no hope for things getting better.

It's where the Kennedy saying comes from--"I don't want to be a rich man, living in a poor country." He understood, that under this situation, and the inevitable oppression needed to keep the rich safe, that this type of thing would start occurring, and that they become targets. And it's gotten pretty bad, when even the intense "rags to riches" media propaganda, can't keep someone feeling hope--as it's second to the amount of MIC propaganda.

[dreamnightwind]

150. +1, excellent post!

[whathehell]

128. Yes. I was honestly shocked to see a video this morning

of some NY protest marchers, who, by and large, were peaceful,

chanting "What do we want"?

Answer "Dead Cops" .

Very ugly.

[NaturalHigh]

130. I was disgusted but not really shocked.

Any way we look at it, there are some bad people out there, and some of them are in the ranks of the protesters.

[whathehell]

134. I was disgusted

and shocked, because I'd heard only good things about the NY protests,

but you are right, of course, there is good and bad everywhere.

[Niceguy1]

154. there are photos floating

About of other bad behavior, plus the assults on officers on the bridge, I think 5 have been arrested or have turned themselves in so far.

[RandiFan1290]

196. Are those like the "broken eye socket" photos you guys were passing around?

[Niceguy1]

253. what is this

"You guys"

Can you not admit that some of the protesters go off the rails? Admiting that is not siding with the cops.........

[DisgustipatedinCA]

164. Yeah. You swallowed that shit whole.

Do some reading. Stop watching Fox/Sinclair propaganda. They're lying to you and causing you to say things that make you look terribly uninformed.

[whathehell]

172. You swallow your own shit, sweetie.

I've been here six years, and I don't watch Fox News...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

182. Then you have even less of an excuse, sweetie.

Six years? I'd say you're enough of a veteran here to post a retraction regarding the lie you're spreading. I know it's no fun to get caught flat-footed, but this is the time where you make a decision: keep going with a right wing lie, or don't. What say you?

Your choice.

[whathehell]

185. LOL I don't need "excuses", dear

If the vid I saw on MSNBC this morning was a lie, it was their's not mine.

Bye.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

189. I should no longer be surprised at willful ignorance on the left.

But I still am on occasion. You don't give a motherfuck what's true or not. You just don't want to be wrong. Do you think this wins you something? By tomorrow I'll have forgotten about your existence, but you'll still live with yourself. Believe whatever it is you need to believe, but don't try convincing anyone that truth is your coin of the realm. See ya.

[Major Nikon]

217. Results...

I should no longer be surprised at willful ignorance on the left.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5994957

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster has been extremely hostile, accusing me of "spreading right wing lies" for simply mentioning a video that I and another DU'er
saw on MSNBC.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 23, 2014, 11:16 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't want to get accused of "spreading right wing lies"? Then don't spread right wing lies.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Mutual shit slinging
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Take it down a notch...
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is not the worst post on either side of this long pissing contest.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Yeah, this one's certainly hyperbolic.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[DisgustipatedinCA]

219. Thanks. The television station has apologized for their lie.

I have to assume the alerter didn't want this right-wing lie exposed for what it was.

[whathehell]

223. Hey, thanks Major!

I now know whose biases polluted the jury pool

[Major Nikon]

224. You're very welcome

I really means a lot coming from someone 2 hides away from a forced visit to the island of misfit toys.

Happy Festivus!

[whathehell]

229. LOL

What means more is reading that from someone who says: "I really means a lot".

I sure it does, Major, I sure it does!

[Major Nikon]

231. OMG! A TYPO! There it is! You got me! Whatever shall I do?!?!

I didn't think it was worthy of an edit because I didn't really think anyone would be pathetic enough to point it out.

You proved me wrong twice!

Congratulations, and happy alerting! Better luck next time.

Now for something far more entertaining than your completely brilliant (albeit somewhat subliterate) literacy checks....

[whathehell]

232. Aww..Feeling a little "gotched"? Whatever shall you do?

Stutter and stumble through a lame attempt at a comeback, it seems

[whathehell]

220. Oh my..You do have problems, don't you?

Try anger management, honey..It works wonders.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

222. You can try to make this about me all you want, but I'm not carrying water for RW liars.

"But WBFF cut the audio short and told viewers that the words were in fact "we won't stop, we can't stop, so kill a cop."

The station apologized both on its Facebook page and in an interview with one of the protestors leading the chant, Tawanda Jones"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025995594

Why do you still insist that right wing liars are correct when you are fully aware that they're lying and that you're repeating those lies? I

[whathehell]

226. I don't "carry water" for RW Liars, either, genius, so I'm SURE you'll be able to show us where I

even indicated I KNEW it to be a lie, let alone "insisted" It was not, right? ..No, you won't because it's not there..In

fact, this is the FIRST time you bothered to provide a link or ANY information that explains your position and

a quick glance through the posts proves it

Hint: Learn how to make a case -- It's not done with an initial post that informs someone they "ate shit".

I'm done with you, so enjoy your misplaced hate and get comfy on my IL

[DisgustipatedinCA]

230. 6 years and you believe everything you see on TV.

Nonetheless, merry Christmas to you and yours, sincerely.

[markpkessinger]

249. Don't tell me nobody is saying that . . .

. . . Perhaps not on DU, per se, but that sentiment is certainly out there. I have two nephews who are police officers. At a family gathering in 2013, I got into a very heated (and very unpleasant) argument with one of those nephews on precisely this topic. I wrote about it on DU at the time.

[Odin2005]

270. You say that as if hating cops were a bad thing.

The police are NOT your friends, they are the enforcement arm of the Ruling Class and their first loyalty is to the Capitalist State.

[NaturalHigh]

274. Funny then that I have so many friends who are police officers.

[Odin2005]

279. Thanks for missing my point.

And also, if push ever comes to shove and there is a revolutionary situation your police friends will have to chose between loyalty to you and loyalty to the State.

[marym625]

5. The SCOTUS

Told us in 2005 that protecting life isn't part of the responsibility of the police

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

[heaven05]

42. +1000

[Igel]

103. That doesn't mean it's not what they do.

It does mean that if they fail to do it it's not a federal Constitutional obligation that they can be sued for.

There's a difference.

[marym625]

126. That doesn't change what I said

And that out is going to cause a mindset that is different than "I must protect the citizens of my community."

[JustAnotherGen]

197. Great info on role of the police

[Fred Sanders]

7. "Cops do not protect you or me". Criminals take note.

[Savannahmann]

34. You know there is a Supreme Court Decision that the police have no duty to protect the public right?

It was in the news when the decision was made. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

So... You were saying?

[Fred Sanders]

41. So, like I said, criminals take note.

[951-Riverside]

83. They already have which is why hundreds of them kick in doors every weekday morning

and steal people's stuff every single day around the country.

It takes them about 2 mins to go in and steal valuables and about 15 mins for the police to get there.

[treestar]

214. I think that only means they can't be considered bodyguards

They can't arrest someone who hasn't done anything or aren't supposed to. Would we not be screaming how wrong they were if they did.

The can't really prevent crime. We want that, but it's not possible. We'd be giving up all our rights (like preventing terrorism - it would require a lot more scrutiny than we really want to put up with).

[Savannahmann]

221. Possibly, it could be interpreted to mean that.

However the specifics of the case that the position was argued on are telling.

The decision, with an opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia and dissents from Justices John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, overturned a ruling by a federal appeals court in Colorado. The appeals court had permitted a lawsuit to proceed against a Colorado town, Castle Rock, for the failure of the police to respond to a woman's pleas for help after her estranged husband violated a protective order by kidnapping their three young daughters, whom he eventually killed.

For hours on the night of June 22, 1999, Jessica Gonzales tried to get the Castle Rock police to find and arrest her estranged husband, Simon Gonzales, who was under a court order to stay 100 yards away from the house. He had taken the children, ages 7, 9 and 10, as they played outside, and he later called his wife to tell her that he had the girls at an amusement park in Denver.

Ms. Gonzales conveyed the information to the police, but they failed to act before Mr. Gonzales arrived at the police station hours later, firing a gun, with the bodies of the girls in the back of his truck. The police killed him at the scene.

He violated a restraining order, and illegally took his children. Mom was pleading with the Police to please do something, get him, get the girls back alive. The Police sighed and said whatever man, we're busy writing tickets. We have a quota man.

The police argued, and the Supreme Court agreed, that the Police do not have a Constitutional Duty to protect anyone, even if it is three minor children who have been kidnapped by their father in violation of a court order.

Now, does anyone remember how those two women got shot during the manhunt for Richard Dorner? Anyone? That's right, they were delivering papers in a neighborhood where the police were stationed to protect another police officer. So the police could be bodyguards for other cops, but they couldn't go to the amusement park where the estranged Father taunted the mother by calling her and telling her where he was with their daughters.

The Police had no duty to protect the woman. They had no duty to protect those girls. Court orders didn't mean squat. Kidnapping? Whatever, family dispute right? Three little girls dead, and the cops aren't responsible in the least.

You would think they would care about a crime in progress, you know Kidnapping? But I'm guessing it would have cut into their ticket quota. Gotta get those funds for the department.

[ellenrr]

8. If I were at demonstration and Ramos and Liu were told to spray me with

tear gas or bring a baton down on my head, they would...

Which doesn't mean that I am in favor of killing them.

It does mean that there is no good cop.

Where is the cop (active duty) who spoke up against the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner?

[NaturalHigh]

59. "It does mean that there is no good cop."

This is why we can't have nice things.

[treestar]

215. Yeah, that's just absurd

If that were the case, we should have none, and who benefits from that?

[whathehell]

129. Um, you don't know that..

And yes, there ARE good cops.

As for your 'tear gas/baton example, guess what?

Just as in other 'jobs', including the military, there ARE those who

refuse to follow orders, and I know one, a cop, who refused to follow any order

she found unjust or immoral.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

13. Their lives are worth just as much as any other life.

There are good cops. But good cops don't sell in primetime. Bad cops do.

When the fuck did DU become FuckThePoliceUnderground? We talk about stereotypes and broadbrushing, then we apply the SAME FUCKING TACTICS to cops.

[Fred Sanders]

17. An eye for an eye makes the whole DU go blind.

[RobinA]

18. Just So ^^^^

It's rather intellectually dishonest to say the least.

[ellenrr]

19. they are worth as much as any other life, no more, no less..

It is not stereotyping when one supplies evidence
of bad policing, such as a cop who opens up the skull of someone who skips a subway fare.

I take back when I said there are no good cops.
There is a good cop - and here she is:
"Black Female Cop Fired After Trying To Stop Another Cop From Beating And Choking Suspect"
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/12/black-female-cop-fired-after-trying-to-stop-another-cop-from-beating-and-choking-suspect-3080030.html

I'm not aware of any other incident of a cop trying to stop police brutality.
If there are, please post.

[RobinA]

28. Using Evidence

of a cop who "opens the skull of someone who skips a subway fare" to condemn any cop but that cop is the essence of sterotyping.

[ellenrr]

29. I take your point, but when examples pile up, one can be excused for generalizing...

but.. ok, you're right on this.

[heaven05]

38. the "blue wall of silence"

and retribution that stops true justice for all, proves EVERYTHING bad said about our policing system in this country. Some are good cops? No doubt, but when they continually stay silent about policing injustice, they are bad cops too.

[ellenrr]

49. exactly- if cops would police themselves, it would be a different story..

what if in any of the cases of police brutality -
ONE cop did a bad thing, ie. beat a suspect, or killed someone bec. of the color of their skin.

and suppose, the other cops - cuz there are always other cops -
stopped the bad cop,
reported the bad cop,
testified against the bad cop.

Suppose the cop got punished instead of walking away with impunity...
then..
we could say,
there are some bad cops...

but, as you point out, when the "good" ones do not oppose the sadistic ones -
then they deserve to be lumped together.

and the one Black female cop that tried to stop a cop from being brutal gets fired!
that ought to tell us something....

[mountain grammy]

52. Yes, well said. It's the police who've developed an "us against them" mentality..

and good cops are silent when it comes to bad cops, and good cops will follow orders to shoot the tear gas.

History has shown us that "just following orders" can have dire consequences.

[ellenrr]

56. ++

[Skittles]

145. aw don't you know?

stereotyping is bad unless it is LEO, then it is open season

[heaven05]

39. none of what you say is true

Fuck the police underground. NAH. BS. Be very wary of the police underground? Definitely, especially, but not exclusively,for minority's.

[RobinA]

14. I Think the Point

is not that their lives are worth more, it's that they are in a position where they are in more danger of being seriously hurt, or worse, as they go about their jobs than most other people. I know I work at a job where I have an increased chance of being hurt, but I certainly don't need to wear a bullet proof vest.

There are many issues endemic to police work that need to be dealt with both by the police and by the community. The current screaming, yelling and demonizing on both sides is not helpful, but maybe it will morph into something from which some good can come once the emotions become lass raw.

[ellenrr]

24. I agree the polarizing discussions don't help...they are just venting,,

but I disagree that cops are more likely of being seriously hurt.
I posted elsewhere the number of cops killed in the line of duty in all of 2013.
You can look it up. I don't remember the number. I think it was 300 something, but I could be wrong.
And -to me - the point is not they are or are not in a dangerous job.
I remember when a subway worker was killed on the job.
Do you think there was an outcry like this?
I can assure you there was not.

My point is that people follow the narrative, of going overboard for police, bec. they do not think, they just react, and they hear on the news - all the discussion, so they follow along.

They do not ask, why are cops lionized in our society?
Bec. they have a dangerous job?
Bec. everybody loves cops?
No.. they are lionized bec the dominant societal narrative has to present the cop as hero,
so as to try negate the narrative of the cop who kills out of racial hatred.

[L0oniX]

47. Many more security guards are assaulted than cops and some are killed.

[Atman]

26. Apparently they're not in more danger than...

...a kid wearing a hoodie carrying Skittles, a 12 year old in a playground, two guys walking in the street, or a guy selling loosies. Sounds to me like it's pretty dangerous being black and/or living in a rough neighborhood.

I was in a very long exchange with my good ol' Florida friends last night -- Florida just experienced its own cop shooting, but a black guy didn't do it so they didn't seem nearly as outraged. What many kept saying over and over was "Think of those officers' families! They had wives and children!" No one seemed to care that the innocent "thugs" had families.

Life sounds just as dangerous for them, too.

[heaven05]

36. +1000

[mountain grammy]

71. Not a day goes by without seeing a video of a cops beating someone up..

Our government at the highest levels committed torture and murder with no consequences. Americans are becoming completely desensitized to government abuses. This is disturbing and frightening. Cops and soldiers are ALWAYS portrayed as heroes with families, the victims of government abuse are thugs, their lives minimized in every possible way.

This was, and always has been, a defining speech about the American justice system. It's only a movie, but it's dead right' I know we've all seen it before, but I never get tired of watching.

[ellenrr]

74. this is so true. thank you! "Our government at the highest levels committed torture

and murder with no consequences. Americans are becoming completely desensitized to government abuses."

I'm so glad I started this thread. Bec. even tho there are a lot of people who don't get it,
there are people like you--

who make the connections that were in the back of my mind-- but I didn't bring forward.
I couldn't really articulate,
but you did.

thanks for your very good points.
and for expressing what I was trying to say.

[Go Vols]

148. Lead by example

comes to mind.

[Thinkingabout]

15. Cops lives may not be more important than others but they are just as important.

Families who have lost loved ones hurts, it is a real hurt, killing more is not the answer. We can either have a very honest conversation or there will be continued tragedies, which is more important?
This has to stop, it is useless for any killing, it doesn't matter if it is civilians killing civilians, cops killing civilians, or civilians killing cops, we are better than useless killings.

[ArcticFox]

16. Agree completely

Last edited Tue Dec 23, 2014, 05:25 AM - Edit history (1)

If anything, we should care less when a cop is killed than when a civilian is killed. After all, police officers volunteer for their hazardous duty, even value a job on the beat over a desk job. They carry guns, wear body armor, and receive a great deal of training in self defense. . The dangers of their profession are recognized by relatively high salaries, great pensions and other benefits, and opportunities for early retirement with a large portion of their salary still paid to them.

In edit, I used a bad rhetorical device. Of course everyone's life should be valued, none less than another.

My "If anything" sentence was in response to the feeling I've gotten that police seem to feel entitled to our unending praise just for choosing that line of work, no matter how they go about it.

[RobinA]

22. The Depravity

of this post made me consider alerting for the first time ever, but I decided it was better out in the open. I generally lean towards the position that this sort of mindset should be available for all to see.

[ellenrr]

25. exactly. good points. they receive training, unlike we civilians

who are at the mercy of any nut-case who wants to kill or shoot us.

[Fred Sanders]

43. And who arrives to arrest that nutcase and protect the rest of us, the NRA?

[leftynyc]

30. Care less?

What a revolting thing to say. No doubt you'll get some support for it here at Cops Are All Evil Underground.

[hrmjustin]

37. I rise in great opposition to your post!

We should care less? We should care less when they are murdered in cold blood?

Repugnant!

[ellenrr]

57. hrmjustin, while you are rising in indignation, can you

speak to the issues?

Expressing sentiment, is one thing.
It is fine.

But if you speak to the issues that have been raised here, we can have a meaningful discussion.

[hrmjustin]

61. What else is there to say.

The post is saying we should care less about cops lives. Seems repulsive to me.

[ellenrr]

64. I don't know about anyone else. I said, I do not think cop lives should be valued over anyone else's

and the reasons why cops lives ARE valued more than others tells us a lot about our society, if we look at it.

[hrmjustin]

65. Yes I was not taking issue with you.

[ellenrr]

70. I know, you were referring to Arctic Fox. I guess I agreed with him/her rhetorically...

but in actuality, I do not value cops' lives less than others.
altho I think Arctic Fox makes good points.

[Live and Learn]

193. +1 nt

[whathehell]

136. "We should care less when a cop is killed"? That sucks -- EVERYONE's life matters.

I don't know ANYONE who wants to live in a country without laws

and decent cops to enforce them.

[Indydem]

20. Cops only protect property?

That statement is so fucking ignorant as to be ludicrous.

If all they protect is property, I'm glad they have stopped investigating murders, assaults, and rapes. Because obviously, since no property is involved in those crimes, cops do nothing about them.

Ignorant.

Ignorant.

Ignorant.

[ellenrr]

27. really? So in the low-income neighborhood, cops investigate assaults and rapes? that would be

news (good news actually)
to a lot of people.

[Renew Deal]

54. You are wrong on the property point

I think people can agree or disagree on the rest of it, but that statement is wrong.

If someone breaks into your house right now, who would you call? If someone in your house needs and ambulance, who would you call?

If you witnessed a car accident with or without injuries, who would you call? And who would show up first? Probably an EMT trained police officer.

[ellenrr]

60. As always, it depends on what color you are, and what social class...

Do you remember in the Ferguson unrest?
Let me refresh your memory.

"Ferguson got the worst of both worlds: militarized police who brutalized protesters and still did not protect a vulnerable business community. In both cases, black citizens disproportionately suffered.

"Whose property is protected says a lot about whose life is valued.
Ferguson officials had a choice on Monday night—who to protect, how, and where. They evidently made the same decision that Ferguson officials have made for years: Protect the white residents and forget the black residents."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/11/ferguson-riots-burning-113189.html#ixzz3Mde8Wak0


the Black business section was left to burn. This was testified to by more than one source, I am only referencing one source, you can do the research.

So again--- what you get, depends on who you are.

Ask a Black person - if you know any - how "protected" they feel by police?

[Indydem]

99. So if they had "protected the black business owners"

By engaging in riot control and "militarized actions" against the protesters, would you have cheered that?

Of course you wouldn't have.

You are a cop hater. Your opinion is worthless. Go away.

[Historic NY]

132. Ask yourself why the NG was busy protecting

other communites and their business', Your blaming the cops when the governor is the one who ordered in the extra protection and then did nothing.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/legislature-vows-to-find-out-why-national-guard-didn-t/article_89b8ba97-5178-5781-99fb-c766c9c3fa9e.html

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/ferguson-mayor-asks-where-national-guard-was-gov-nixon-pledges/article_343a2224-4d61-54fb-b5ac-a13ea99951f7.html

http://fox2now.com/2014/12/03/governor-wont-answer-why-national-guard-plans-changed-leaving-soldiers-on-sideline/

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/us/michael-brown-stepfather-video/
Well he got what he wished for...

[whathehell]

160. "as always", my ass --.What about Black cops?

Are theyl racist as well?

[TheKentuckian]

198. They are operatives of a racist institution, are trained to act in racist fashions, and are immersed

in a racist culture with a racist worldview so of course they are regardless of personal background or individual belief. There is no reason to believe every white officer is individually a racist either (though I assure you there is no shortage of such people), that fact changes nothing at the institutional level.

[whathehell]

205. Oh please..

Put down the manifesto for a minute. No one needs that tired speech about "the institution"

I''m speaking of them as individuals, something you're clearly unable to address.

[TheKentuckian]

261. Seems fair, you are unwilling to discuss the institutional aspect which is over arching

because you desire to avoid that discussion. To discuss the individuals we will have to do so INDIVIDUALLY.

[whathehell]

263. No, I've discussed that aspect on several threads,

you just didn't see it.

As to your last point, I think there is a 'middle ground' between abstract

theorizing and 'individual' interviews and that might be "small groups" of people,

Although I haven't seen it here, I've seen and heard MANY Black cops and relatives of

cops from the AA community discussing the entire issue on television and on the radio.

They did not sound like "institutionally" brainwashed cops you described.

[TheKentuckian]

265. Being a cog in a system doesn't require "brainwashing" just tolerance, immersion, training,

compliance, and acceptance.

[joeglow3]

262. Was quick trip owned by a black individual?

[heaven05]

33. no it isn't

a GREAT majority of the time.

[bsmarty]

31. I 100% agree with you.

We worship cops in this country, they are almost like demi-gods. I have two cops in my family and I don't treat them any differently than anyone else in my family.

[heaven05]

32. Truth is Always appreciated

I had the same thought when reading about what the President did as a politically expedient gesture for public consumption. Murdering cops is not going to do anything to ease the tension of cops murdering unarmed people, minority mostly. When will this society's culture move away from the culture of bigotry, racism, hate and guns? WHEN/IF that happens we will again begin to start being the beacon of light envisioned in SOME of the WORDS of our constitution and bill of rights.

America is a country that is an ideal that has remained stillborn and disincarnate simply because the history that created this culture stymied the creation of a true democracy for and by the people. It started with ALL benefit being for and by the white male and because of the continuing control issues surrounding that fact, never got past the concept of a free society for all. Tell that free stuff to Native-americans still living on reservations. Tell that to all down through history who have faced slavery, segregation/Jim Crow, 'integration' and finally with the present SCOTUS and the incoming congress voted in by freedom loving amerikkkans , de facto segregation, real racism of the most violent kind, you know the lynchings, castrations, burnings AGAIN is guaranteed. Hell the shooting down of unarmed citizens, minority mostly, has reinforced the continuing reality of the 'amerikan way'. Already has started with the limiting of minority voting/human rights, gerrymandering and just out and out legislated hate that is and will be coming from the elected officials in Washington, D.C.

Yeah, President Obama did the right thing, yet the beat does and will continue to go on.....with or without all this breast beating about the shooting of two cops and the politicization of that act by ONE apparently mentally unstable individual. The hypocrisy is disgustingly overwhelming.

[marshall]

40. I Think it's akin to the civil rights cases the federal govt brings in murder cases

killing a person because of their race is a crime against an individual and a crime against society. Similarly, killing an officer of the law is not just a crime against her or him, it is a crime against society. That society may arguably be corrupt, but murder isn't the way to fix that.

I believe teachers and others in authority are afforded a similar status--attacking them raises the crime to a higher level than attacking some random person.

[L0oniX]

48. The cops of today are not like those of the 50's. I remember when they were friendly.

I remember people even coming out of their homes to give a cop a iced drink ...even gifts at Christmas. People were not afraid of cops back then ...unless you were a criminal.

[ellenrr]

50. yeah when I was a child, lived in a small town,

we knew the police chief, knew the firemen (they were all men then)

In the '50's we had an African American cop - not that common back then.

My parents always told me, 'if you get lost, find a cop and tell him.'

Sure, in my town, cops were invited in, given cold drink, and gifts at xmas.

I lived in an integrated town. I don't remember any cop ever acting different toward someone bec. they were Black or White.

(of course, it may have happened, and I didn't know - but I never heard of it happening.)

[ellenrr]

55. cop defenders, please answer my question:

"Where is the cop (active duty) who spoke up against the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner?"

[ellenrr]

76. oh well.. I guess the answer must be "none"

[treestar]

207. A DUer had a nephew who was a cop

Who thought Wilson badly mishandled the situation.

Demanding someone of them say something publicly reminds me too much of the Muslims who are also supposed to do that when some Muslim commits a terrorist act.

[SoapBox]

62. When good, honest, normal everyday persons get killed...

Do they get an endless funeral parade of hundreds of cops and televised funeral services?

No...and I'm always disgusted by the over the top display that cops get.

Just say'n.

[ellenrr]

66. ?? this post is real? a troll?

"Name me one black person who was killed by the police because of the color of their skin."

Should it be ignored - as in "don't feed the trolls"
?

[Helen Borg]

67. I think the framing of this is part of the problem

By even asking about how "worth" a life is, is just buying into neoliberal principles that everything is a transaction with a money value attached to it... No? You cannot attach a value to life, really. And even if you could do so, in terms of lost revenues and whatnot, it would capture only a tiny aspect of it. So, of course a cop's life is not worth more than any other, since you cannot measure one's life worth.

[deathrind]

68. Sad to see this on DU...

Police officers are human and like everyone else no human is perfect. They make mistakes like everyone else. But to say that all police are bad is patently false. Anyone willing to run into danger when everyone else is running away deserves better.

[ellenrr]

72. I agree with you, it is sad that on DU so often people do not delve deeply into the issues....

you for example (and you're not alone)
miss the point.
The point, which was made by people more articulate than me - is the hero-worship of cops, the media making cops deaths into a shrine,
and the implications of such.

I won't repeat what has already been said, and ably, by others.
But if you think this thread is about "all police are bad" then,
that is indeed sad....

[deathrind]

102. The posts in this thread have a very clear point...

[Orsino]

79. I am in favor of special protections for cops in the line of duty...

...as long as special scrutiny of their performance is part of the package.

I wouldn't say that the cop's life is "worth" more, but more people typically depend on that cop's doing a good job than on an ordinary citizen. Without judging the relative values of the two kinds of citizens' lives, the law must treat them a little differently. The cop is given some extraordinary power, and some extraordinary regulation ought to accompany it.

[One_Life_To_Give]

80. Carefull

Those enhanced penalties for killing a cop/firefighter can affect ones attitude about doing a job in rough neighborhoods. If the societal pressure against shooting a cop is eroded the cops will become more likely to safeguard themselves using ever more leathal means at increasing ranges.

[LovingA2andMI]

86. Can we publish this at our blog?

The blog is Independent Underground News & Talk? Let us know.

[ellenrr]

101. publish my post? yes.

[closeupready]

88. Of course not. Is anyone making that argument?

[Thinkingabout]

89. Who here would be in favor of stopping the killing? We have families killed by family

members, we kill our neighbors, we kill in the workplace, cops kill, cops gets killed, let's say we are going to do whatever it takes to stop the killings. We are living in a society where GUNS are the most important object to many, it is overboard. Families grieve for the loss of a loved one, why is this necessary.

[DrDan]

91. "The officers who serve and protect our communities risk their own safety for ours every single day

— and they deserve our respect and gratitude every single day"

[George II]

92. I condemn the killings of the 2 police officers...and you have no right to interpret what I mean...

....when I say that in order for it to conform to YOUR concept of what it means.

And by saying that, I am still far, FAR from being "fascist".

Police officers do much MORE than merely protect property. I have seen it dozens, if not hundreds of times in my life. To not recognize that is narrow-minded and bitter, with a completely warped view of overall society.

I grew up in NYC, in fact I was born about a mile from where Saturday's shooting took place. I rode the subway to both High School and College, and I came across countless police officers in my life in NYC. Sure, I saw a few bad cops in that time, but they were greatly outweighed by the number of good cops I saw, helping PEOPLE (not just "property&quot out of bad situations and protecting them.

I could go on, but I suggest you find yourself some of the videos and stories about how the police acted on September 11, 2001, and how many of them rushed into those burning buildings NOT to save property but to save the lives of hundreds of people that they didn't now, regardless of their race, sex, nationality, or economic standing. And think about how many of them never came out of those buildings alive.

[randr]

95. There are many jobs far more dangerous than law enforcement

The people who choose law enforcement for employment know what they are getting into.
I am appalled at the senseless killing of these men as I am of any act of violence.
I also know there is one common denominator is most of these incidents and that is the over arming an militarization of both public servants and civilians.
Take the poison out of the well.

[ellenrr]

117. +

[ananda]

96. The value of life is always worth discussing.

If all humans are created equal, and this is supposed to be the underlying foundation of our society, then all life should be valued equally.

But, if that is just sugar coating to hide a prevailing meme of tiered worth, then we need to have that discussion. Why is the life of a rich person valued more than the poor, white more than black, police more than citizenry?

I wonder if this is a meme promoted and propped up by the rich and corporate elitists who now own the media, politicians, officials, the courts, the millitary, and the police services. Does it serve to keep the undervalued people in place? I mean, how effective are the movements and protests these days?

I would like to see the movements and protests sustained by large numbers, enough to hold attention and make a difference. I don't want another Occupy relegated to the eleemosynary shadows.

[ellenrr]

104. I don't know what eleemosynary shadows are, but Occupy is alive and well...

no it doesn't look the same way it looked in 2011.
But it is active in Strike Debt, in foreclosure resistance, and in resistance to police oppression, among others.

[Dawson Leery]

121. We need to have this discussion because

the "all are created equal" myth is alive and well.

[RobinA]

124. When It Comes

to "tiered worth," it is usually not the lives themselves that create the difference, but what they stand for. I've often wondered why the lives of the passengers on the 9/11 planes seem to be valued so much more than any other poor schmo killed in a jet crash. Why isn't every site of a plane crash a National Monument like the in Tannersville? The people killed in the Jamaica Bay crash right after 9/11 are just as dead as the ones who hit the Trade Center and their presence at the scene was just as random. But did their relatives receive huge payouts from the government? I think not.

Currently, if you are a black man wrongly shot by a cop you seem to be worth more than if you are a white man wrongly shot by a cop, who don't seem to exist at the current moment. It's the narrative of the day/week/month/year/decade that determines the tiering. Rightly or wrongly.

[workinclasszero]

98. Hundreds of black and hispanic people being killed for no reason,

other than the color of their skin, every year and the cops demand yes demand that the pubic back them up in their racist killings.

They have zero value for the life of a black or any other non white race, its plain to see. It all stems from the republicans southern strategy, fox news and hate radio propaganda 24/7.

It has infected the soul of this nation and it is rotten to the core.

[ellenrr]

105. ++

[JEFF9K]

110. No whites are killed by the cops?

Statistics show that MORE whites are killed. But NOBODY cares about THEM! Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[RobinA]

125. This Is Where

the current protest effort has, in my opinion, made a mistake. This has become about police killing blacks when it would have been more effective to be about police killing anybody.

[kentuck]

107. Well said.

They sound like such hypocrites.

[rock]

113. +1

You got it!

[ellenrr]

115. When a cop or administrator does the right thing - what happens?

In the case of Dontre Hamilton, a mentally ill man killed by a cop, the cop was fired bec. he did not follow procedures.

"Police Chief Edward Flynn fired Manney in October, saying Manney instigated the fight with an inappropriate pat-down. The chief said Manney correctly identified Hamilton as mentally ill but ignored his training and department policy, and treated him as a criminal."

ok so far...

then,
"The Milwaukee Police Association condemned Manney's firing as a political move, and members voted no confidence in Flynn soon after the firing."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-milwaukee-officer-not-charged-in-fatal-shooting-of-mentally-ill-man/

Why? Is the police chief biased? Why does the MPA go after the chief when he is trying to REMOVE the 'bad cop apples'?

[whathehell]

139. Nope, not always..

I have a friend was a cop for over twenty years -- a "good cop" who

would NOT follow orders she found immoral or unfair -- She's retired

now after 25 years on the force.

[Android3.14]

144. I disagree

Just as we hold cops to a higher standard of behavior, thus should we honor that sacrifice and dedication.

[bravenak]

155. I don't actually see US holding cops to a higher standard.

Who is holding them to a higher standard? Certainly not the courts. Certainly not the system. Certainly not the police departments or the District Attorneys.
There has been a lack of accountability for law enforcement. They change that and they will be treated with the same level of respect as those they police.
They are paid for the sacrifice and dedication by earning good wages that afford them the ability to live good lives and send their children to college. Their children can honor them. The rest of us can decide for ourselves how we see them by how they treat our people.

[TheKentuckian]

201. What higher standards do you speak of?

[Joe Shlabotnik]

168. K&R n/t

[maced666]

178. "Today is the worst day of My life," - Jaden Ramos, 13

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/dec/21/jaden-ramos-racebook/

[lumberjack_jeff]

181. Cops are a manifestation of our system of laws, like judges or attorneys.

Assaulting one of them in their official capacity is a defacto attack on that system of laws.

Yes, it deserves a stronger punishment in much the same way "being an asshole" is called "contempt of court" when you do it to a judge.

The alternative is the narco-state model of Mexico in which your life is worth little if you wear a badge.

None of this takes away from the reality that we do need better cops.

[eridani]

192. I we could do something about the subculture of violence in many departments--

--then the cops we already have would automatically become better.

[UglyGreed]

194. K&R excellent post!!! N/T

[termroffor]

203. I disagree with one portion

You argue that killing a black person tears the fabric of society while killing a cop does not tear the fabric of society

"But if you're not -
then listen to the narrative.
"When a police officer is murdered, it tears at the fabric of society."
Bull!
When a Black person is killed by police because of the color of their skin,
THAT tears at the fabric of society. "

But I believe that because of the suffering cause to the families of both the black person and the cop, and because not all cops are evil, killing any innocent man, black, hispanic, asian, white, etc. tears the fabric of society.

[ellenrr]

258. I think that the reaction to the cops' death dishonors their memory...

I also think that killings of cops has a big effect on society.
As we can see by the reaction to the NY cops killed.
The event itself - is used to stir up more anger toward Black people in general, toward protesters..
Even cops of color are wary of white cops.

So the racial tension, which is always simmering, is being racheted up, as we can see by Patrick Lynch, foaming at the mouth, calling for raw meat, and
blaming the Mayor and the protesters for the death of the cops.

This reaction does an injustice to the lives of the 2 men who were killed by a nut. Yes, they were killed bec. they were cops.
But I have no reason to think they were any better or any worse than any of us.
Their families should be able to mourn them,
their memories should be respected.

To turn their deaths into an item of theatre and make their killings a motive to gun down more Black people,
or
to turn the event into a reason to eliminate the constitutional right of people to protest....

to turn the event into a media circus--

none of this honors the memories of the two dead men....imo.

[still_one]

204. Sorry but all killing tears at the fabric of society. People have a tendency

To pick and choose which sound bite fits their argument, but the fact is there are good people and there are bad people, just as there are good policemen and bad policemen

And there is now doubt in my mind there are more good people than bad ones, and more good policemen than bad ones

[Atman]

210. Yes, but...

The trouble is that so many of us have had run-ins with "bad" cops. I have resisted posting my own story here on DU, but here goes... I recently (almost three years ago) had a case thrown out of court before the DA even got to present her case. Cops hassled me on private property as I tried to take my dementia-riddled mother to a doctor's appointment. She didn't know the name of her doctor or where she was going, so I took out my iPhone to search for an address based upon the info she was able to give me. She saw the iPhone and freaked out..."What is that thing! Don't do that!" and jumped from the car and ran to a neighbor's house, screaming that I was on "the weed" and trying to kill her. The neighbor called 911.

Now, keep in mind, this was all on private property. I was in my mother's driveway. Car not running, keys not in the ignition. I don't smoke pot, I certainly wasn't drinking.

THREE cop cars pulled up. One guy started searching my car as the other two questioned me. I told him to stop searching my car, he was on private property, and I did not consent to the search of my car. He said "I can do anything I want." My mother, now back on her doorstep, told them to leave. She was sorry, it was all a mistake. But the cop told her "It's not your decision anymore, Ma'am." Remember, we're on private property, and the property owner asked the police to leave.

I turned around and the cop was searching my car AGAIN. I was getting pretty irritated at this point, and once again told him I had not consented to a search of my car, and that we are on private property. He pulled out a gum wrapper from under my seat.

Meanwhile my mother is crying hysterically on the front porch because she's now missing her doctor's appointment.

"We know about you guys selling your heroin" said the cop who illegally searched the car and came up with a gum wrapper. "This is what you guys use to sell your packages." It was surreal. I've never seen heroin, and wouldn't know what it looked like...and I was in a retirement community. Mom is still crying on the doorstep. Keep in mind, I was 53 at the time, we were in a retirement community, I'm driving an old Hyundai Elantra...yet, somehow they take me for a heroin dealer. After repeated pleas to let me take my mother to the doctor, the illegal search guy says "Yeah, I think he's on heroin." At that I lost my temper (bad move) and said "Fuck you!" to him.

That was all they needed. Cuffed me, threw me in the car and took me downtown. I guess I'm lucky I didn't get tazed or shot. But I am a relatively affluent white guy. When they booked me they didn't even know what I was charged with. The cop that arrested me said "Just put it down as a DUI." Despite the fact that I was NOT driving, NOT under the influence, they had no field sobriety or breathalyzer, and I was on private property with a car that didn't even have the keys in the ignition. But the cops "got me" and they knew it. Got their revenge because I disrespected them. Just the charge of a DUI cost me $4000 to defend, and after more than a year, and two continuances after the cops didn't bother to show up in court (don't believe that they'll throw out a case if the cops don't show up), the judge finally got to hear my case. He literally laughed at the DA as she tried to present her opening statement. The judge looked at her with amazement. "So, the defendant wasn't driving, you have no evidence he was under the influence, you performed an illegal search of his property...do you really want to move forward with this case?"

The DA apologized, issued a motion to drop the case before it even began, and I was free to go...after close to two years, a suspended driver's license for refusing the field sobriety test, thousands of dollars in court and attorney's fees, torn relations with family...but the cops got what they wanted. They got their revenge for not playing along with them.

Yes, people have a tendency to shape their opinions based upon their experiences. At my age I've had more than one run-in with police, but never had a problem. This one incident with three dick-head asshole cops changed my entire perspective. I simply don't trust any of them anymore, nor should you. They will lie and make up shit to fill their quotas. They've brought this on themselves.

[still_one]

212. Yes, People are shaped by what personally happens to to them, no doubt about it. I know people who

buy Japanese or German cars based on their life experiences from world war II.

As someone posted a comment from Jon Stewart:

Jon Stewart: You can support cops and grieve cops and still question bad cops

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025991885

That says it is all in my view

[hrmjustin]

211. I agree! I know a lot of cops from my neighborhood and they are good people.

Yes I do have to say I know 2 that I question why they are allowed on the NYPD but the rest are good women and men.

[hifiguy]

235. Damn' tootin!

[sabrina 1]

248. Very well said, including the part about feeling obliged to precipitate every reference to

the crimes committed by cops with unnecessary statements about the murder of those two cops. That goes without saying.

I have yet to see any of these 'rah, rah for cops' types, show any compassion for the families of the victims of rogue cops.

[FBaggins]

252. Fascist? Really?

As with the overuse of "nazi" in online discourse... the use of this term too often demonstrates only the user's ignorance of the reality behind those terms.

Of course... it's just as ridiculous to use it here. Nobody claims that a cop's life is more valuable than an elementary-school student... or a teacher... or an admin assistant or congresswoman.

It isn't that it "tears at the fabric of society" because the individual has some additional value relative to others... it's becaus the role they play is as a representative of society. Judges aren't more valuable, but killing a judge because she's a judge harms the society. Gabrielle Giffords' shooting was not notable because of her political positions or her inherent "extra" value because she was in Congress... it was because an attack on our representatives (if it's done because of that role) is an attack on all of us and the very system that makes up "We The People".

If the guy has a grudge against some individual who just happens to be a cop... it's no more reprehensible than any other murder (accepting of course that any murder is represensable)... but if he hunts him and kills that same guy because he's a cop, then the crime is a greater one because it is an attack on his role within the community. It doesn't change his value at all

[Hekate]

264. Nor are they worth less than any other

[Odin2005]

269. "Cops defend property." That is something I am always having to explain to people.

Historically the primary role of the police in any society has been to protect the ruling class' control over the means of production, NOT protecting "public safety".

[LordGlenconner]

273. Hey everyone the problem is solved!

According to one poster here (in another thread) the police are now taking bullets for the sake of better PR. They aren't shooting people anymore! Hooray!