General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan people here have an adult conversation?
Last edited Tue Dec 9, 2014, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)
(Update at bottom)
Ok, we tortured some folks. Nothing new here.
Ok, so we tortured a lot of folks, and we tortured them a lot, and the CIA didn't tell everything to everybody, but that was for everyone's good: we need to keep our torture techniques a secret, so our enemies won't have the same effective techniques that we do.
And, make no mistake, these techniques work. We now have a world-class dataset of terrorist scream volumes, and it fits a binomial distribution nicely. The CIA did it's job here. They are patriots.
So can we dispense with the sanctimony? Really, who among us wouldn't do what they did? Only people who hate America, or who have any morals. People like Glenn Greenwald.
Enough!
Time to move on from this episode that does little but feed the sanctimony-trolls.
Let's look to a brighter future, where the TPP will raise living standards for all Americans... and have I told you about Soylent Green? Not yet? You're gonna love Soylent Green.
Regards,
Third-Way Manny
UPDATE: um... this is, more or less, what our President said. In public. About torture.
“We tortured some folks... It’s important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job those folks had, ... “A lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots.”
So a quick note to anyone who thinks I suck for using terms like this as sarcasm: sarcasm is a far better use for them than the fetid spew that poured from our President's mouth on this subject. Torture is an international war crime, a crime against humanity. Anyone with a #$%^&ing heart understands that. Coddling, defending, and covering up torture are degenerate actions.
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MineralMan
(146,316 posts)saying anything similar to what you pretend they are saying. Your third-way Manny thing misses the mark badly, once again. Why not just say what you personally think about stuff and quit trying to put words in others' mouths?
I no longer satirize your "third-way Manny" schtick. I had a couple of posts hidden for doing that, so I stopped. Instead, I will ask you why you're trying to put words in people's mouths with this. To which people are you referring on DU? Me? I've said nothing about the torture report. I haven't even read it yet. I'm one of those you think is a Third Wayer, I'm sure, but I'm opposed to torture very strongly.
So, to whom are you referring this time with your failed satire? Do tell.
You want an adult conversation? Try beginning one. This is not one of those, based on your insulting OP.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)MineralMan
(146,316 posts)Never mind, Manny. Just never mind.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)MineralMan
(146,316 posts)You're way off target here. Who are you talking to? What's your point?
Post as Manny, why don't you. You'll do better than trying to put words in others' mouths, I'm sure. Then, maybe, we can have that adult conversation you're asking for.
Start the conversation as an adult, and people will respond in kind.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I think satire sometimes makes a point more effectively than what you call adult conversation.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)from the smugness of American male privilege.
Seriously....when is it appropriate to greet a report of crimes....a report of torture, sexual assault, and mayhem with this dreck?
Vattel
(9,289 posts)and "tough jobs" and not being too "sanctimonious"?
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Don't you see?
HATER!!!
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 10, 2014, 01:25 AM - Edit history (1)
inconvenient truths.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)I just *know* it.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)to face right now.
88 percent of us approved of Bush after 9/11 and gave him carte blanche to do as he pleased. As one of the 12 percent who did not, I suggest that Americans need to reflect on the fact that yeah....we can't be too sanctimonious, because the vast majority of us really didn't give a shit about torture after 9/11. We thought the people keeping us 'safe' were patriots, and we told them, through DOJ memos and orders, to torture.
Let's not kid ourselves here....the people in charge of our intelligence agencies did have a tough job....preventing another attack, especially with Bush willing to ignore things like the PDB of 8/6/2001. Would you have wanted to be working at the CIA on 9/12?
And we Americans let this happen. So yeah...we can't be too sanctimonious and pretend the blood isn't on all of our hands. I was in the 12 percent, and I still wonder if I could have done more. We let Bush and Cheney decide the moral compass....to our shame.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)or the one about the danger of being sanctimonious if we are too critical of the torturers. We Americans and the victims of torture need to hear these hard truths.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)we didn't allow and endorse torture. Hard truths .....like there wasn't a time in America where we lauded the patriots we thought kept us safe. I never supported Bush, but I'm always going to ask myself what more I could have done.
I think denying collective culpability is living in denial. And, ironically, is not what your namesake taught.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)As for Manny's share of collective culpability, I don't believe in guilt by association.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)so pure that very few were.
Oh, Vattel...there are many Germans who eschewed responsibility, too.....but they all weren't in the White Rose.
We Americans bear the responsibility of slavery and its effects. We bear the responsibility of Native American genocide. We bear the responsibility of the Japanese internments.
And we bear the responsibility of how we responded to 9/11. Or do you think privilege exempts some?
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Fabulous.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)own DOJ give them cover? Did not the majority of Americans overwhelmingly support Bush after 9/11 and believe that what was being done had to be done to keep us safe?
Let's not forget just how deep in denial this country went. And let's not pretend that only sociopaths would torture. The fact is, plenty of well-meaning people bought the lies and allowed Bush and Cheney to be their moral compass...and thus, torture was widespread.
That was the point the President made...heck...it even took Greenwald 5 years to wake up and get where I was on 9/12.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)And you seem to be OK with that.
I think it's horrific. Must be my white male privilege or some such inane thing.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)nt
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Patriotism at its finest. 
Vattel
(9,289 posts)He offered excuses for their behavior (e.g., they had "tough jobs"
. He suggested that it would be "sanctimonious" to criticize them too harshly. You find Manny's post offensive because you think his use of satire to poke fun at Obama is somehow insensitive to the victims of torture. And yet you find nothing offensive about Obama's words. I think you should ponder that.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Heck...as I noted before, it took Greenwald five years to get with the program. And yet Manny praised him in his OP.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)To other people, of course.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)who are trying to make sense of your convoluted passive defense of torturers because, you know, it's ALL our fault 
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)What you're doing is trying to dissipate the guilt and spread it out thin enough so that the evils committed by those in power don't stand out as the abominable crimes they are.
Torturers and their handlers are not victims of some inescapable narrative of violence.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)their prejudices, and their support of the Nazi Party helped make that happen. Does that spread the evil thin? I think it absolves no one of evil.
Sorry...but although I never supported Bush, or torture, I will always wonder what we as a people could have done better. This is our government...we can't walk away from collective responsibility for it.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)When will our torturers face the same fate as that of the Axis powers?
Never. We've become them in some ways...with a smiley face for distraction.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)reparations. And I think we owe reparations to people we illegally tortured.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Bullshizzle. SCOTUS selected Bush / Cheney. Bush / Cheney selected torture.
But, you know, we have to look forward instead of back or some nonsense like that.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)of America's torture?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)when it was happening.
Why did Nancy take impeachment off of the table?
Why did POTUS BHO want to look forward instead of back?
They failed us. We elected them and they failed us...in some ways more than Bush / Cheney.
On edit: don't hate my realism. Hate the reality.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)say that as a criminal defense attorney.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Otherwise we encourage the next USAmonster to me much worse.
merrily
(45,251 posts)The idea that Americans control the behavior of Presidents is quaint.
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)There is no sanctimony in declaring that I would not torture another human being. Go on and justify murder and torture with your popularity statistics, cause that's all you got.
And how "we Americans let this happen," (your words), I call out also. What were we gonna do? Take it to the streets? There is no blood on my hands, this is the evil work of neo-cons.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Just wait, you'll see.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)milk it Manny, milk it!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)That's a disgusting and false accusation, the work of a low person.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)there for being offended by it? To a number, they were, and plenty others. Stop trying to rewrite history and pass it off as silly- you deeply offended many people here.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Disgusting that people like you make up stuff and get others to believe it.
Just disgusting.
Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #78)
Post removed
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Then crawl back into your swamp.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Was to mock them. But then again, you know this already. Puke worthy. Slither away while you can.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Wow.
Now go find that watermelon post, or go away.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)was bullshit too.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)the original was in RESPONSE to threads about AAs finding references to fried chicken and watermelon problematic. Context matters.
Manny is hoping you do not aware of the context, of course. he was just blathering on innocently about the food of his people, sort of, um errr. And never heard a watermelon joke either, really he didn't, LOL!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4478358
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)If you are offended by his/her posts then alert or bring it up with skinner et al.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Also an option- I can comment right back! Works for me, but thanks!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)it was alerted on AND bought up to Skinner ... it resulted in Skinner chastising PoC (in the AA Group, none-the-less) for calling Manny a racist (something that wasn't said) ... however, (if a recall correctly) Manny's post went unaddressed.
sheshe2
(83,772 posts)When he was called on that later, by both Whisp and myself we got hides. They were 2 different occasions and Manny warned me not to bring it up or I would get a hide as Whisp did. Lo and behold I got that hide.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and instead of accepting that maybe- quite a few people find that offensive, it must be alerting.
so they alert and explain it's a revenge alert on me! WTF?
Didn't work- but could have this time of the night.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)That was invented by jerks on DU.
sheshe2
(83,772 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(31,827 posts)It's kind of become a very open running joke that you terribly offended people, gave us a back handed apology - and then deny all of it. You won't even own the follow up 'apology' thread?
I'm not providing you a link - anyone can look in my journal and find the numerous links if they are wondering what this is about. They just need to go back to black history month 2014.
People would stop harping on you about it - and bringing it up -
if you wouldn't play this game.
Anyone flying by - pull it out of my journal. I've no time for this - though I'm expecting more of this nonsense in February.
And nope - no one should say Manny is a 'racist'. He's not.
Just displayed (not saying he is - saying the BEHAVIOR was) tone deaf and unable to understand the black American perspective. After awhile - lots of little things? They make us explode. See NYC and Ferguson - wake the fuck up. We are very angry at the joke called America.
So onto the point of this thread - This will all be brushed aside.
Let's not kid ourselves.
Maybe I'm a cynic? No - I OWN being a cynic. Maybe it was my upbringing. . .
Just don't think my former green beret dad wasn't doing shit like this in the 1960's and 1970's.
They were. We did. In our name.
Welcome to Adulthood Folks - your country does shit and has always done shit that its done a really good job of convincing you that only OTHER countries/nations do.
I was told that when I was five - glad everyone else is finally seeing what a piece of shit country we are.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Yet you persist on playing martyr here? Get over it, you are fully aware of, and richly deserved all the flak.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Are you really denying that, in the midst of a discussion(s) about whether serving stereotypic African-American foods, e.g., Fried Chicken, watermelon, etc., during "Black History Month" is celebratory or degrading, that you posted a transparently mocking post about traditional Jewish foods?
Really? And now you're saying that it was/is all a figment of our imagination? Really?
Well here:
You posted this (on Sun Feb 9, 2014, 09:27 PM):
http://election.democraticunderground.com/10024472335
Which followed this (Fri Feb 7, 2014, 10:50 AM) post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218111443
Where there was much back and forth about whether serving stereotypic foods, e.g., Fried Chicken, watermelon, etc., during "Black History Month" is celebratory or degrading.
And then when PoC, and others, stated they felt your "Any Goyim making untoward remarks about gefilte fish will be in big trouble" post was mocking and inappropriate ... you posted this (Mon Feb 10, 2014, 09:09 PM) apology:
While I'm not sure who's correct, I will say that my inclination is to not allow the bad guys to steal from us. A number of years ago, Republicans demonized the word "Liberal" so many Liberals started calling themselves "Progressives". I think that's a bad idea. We win by fighting, not by letting others claim whats ours.
In the case of my joking about Jewish foods, it struck me today that I was inadvertently being a little stupid (first time ever, right?), since my post could have been construed as "See black folks? I can have fun with foods that *my* people eat: why can't you?" But there's a reason that it's easier for me than for black folks: the Jewish experience in America has been unbelievably different than the Black experience. Jews have had some issues (e.g., the Italian Catholic kids used to beat on the Jewish kids when I grew up in Queens), but basically we've been as accepted into our nation about as smoothly as any other minority - perhaps even more smoothly than any other. Blacks, on the other hand, started off here with SLAVERY. @#$%ing SLAVERY. And for a century-and-a-half since that was over, they've suffered so many other depradations and degradations, terrible, terrible stuff. In their case, perhaps the pain is so great that it's best avoided rather than launching it back at the savages.
So, I apologize for my post. I should have been a bit more thoughtful.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024478358
I thought, at the time, it a sincere and self-reflective apology. I now have my doubts, as now you wish to re-write ... No, erase history. You apologized for something that you, once understood; but now wish to pretend didn't happen? What happened?
Come on, Manny ... do what your name says and Man the F@#% up!
You said it ... upon reflection, you recognized that it could, and was, taken as a mocking insult ... you apologized ... OWN IT!
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I've looked and I don't see it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Find my watermelon post, or get lost.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)There was the Mike Brown thread, and the gefilte fish thread, too.
Any DUer can access those threads through the helpful search box provided by admin.
And perhaps you misunderstood me.....if your claim is that no watermelon thread/posts exists, then why didn't you participate in the AA discussion and explain that? I think it would be the right thing to do.
Response to msanthrope (Reply #83)
Post removed
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Oh dear, not sure I have heard of such an outrageous dodge.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Then @#$& off.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that watermelon and fried chicken jokes are widely considered to be offensive.
I guess you're more than a little late to the social justice party, eh? Or playing DUMB.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 10, 2014, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)
On Tue Dec 9, 2014, 11:26 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Still can't find my watermelon post?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5936999
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
I posted exactly what he requested, and have been subjected to verbal abuse in more than one post.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 9, 2014, 11:41 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am removing juror 1's comments, as it is itself a TOS violation. -AtheistCrusader
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Post link or get out. I'd be pissed too if you accused me of something like that.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Silly argument but no need to hide this post.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I found the link. And the 'attack'.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that was the context, Manny knows that dozens of people were disgusted. Not sure why he is pretending to be unaware of it all.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If you read Manny's posts *very carefully* you can see, he's taking issue with your characterization of it, not that it happened at all.
Asking for a link was a rhetorical way of saying 'I didn't say *that*'.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)who actually claims to be ignorant of the hateful history of using food as slurs against POC- which is impossible to believe- but he still felt comfy telling them to get over it. Baloney, and more than a little hateful.
The AA group is also quite familiar and largely disgusted with the dog whistling "get over it" crap, as well as the didn;t say *that* exactly dodge.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)there exist people who genuinely lack the historical knowledge to distinguish between authentic culturally representational food, and an insulting stereotype.
At least one of the stories that led to that kerfuffle, appeared to be a genuine lack of understanding, rather than an deliberate intent to joke/insult by the school.
(and then there are people working to 'reclaim' or *take* terms that were meant as an insult and make it their own, which can confuse the issue. You get a room full of 3 groups; people who *mean* it as an insult, people who *take* it as an insult, and people who are all 'fuck you, it's mine now, got a problem with it?'. Edit: Oh, and sometimes a fourth group of people who have no clue what is going on.)
Manny is a good egg. I don't know you well, only seen a few posts that I remember, but you seem like a good egg too. Please consider that 'you' (collectively) and Manny may be talking past each other at this point, over what started as a misunderstanding. If I were you, I'd make an effort to start over, because at the end of the day, we're all on the same team here. If Manny's methods of mixing information and humor genuinely doesn't sit right with you, or this episode has built too much baggage, (and this goes for him as well) maybe take a break from each other. It can work wonders.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)"unfortunate swipe" - because they missed the other threads- but it was. It was (whether he was aware of historical connotations or not) a hey black people- get over it! thread. And, as such, hugely disappointing to see here.
That is being generous, going with the assumption that his ignorance of hurtful stereotypes could actually be true. Based on what I read in those threads, that seems like a desperate dodge though. Don't buy it, and am fed up with him trying to martyr himself here at DU over it.
If he was actually sorry he said it, he would stop trying to score points with it here... and stop hoping people do not recall the context at all. Good egg my ass.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I think the gefilte thread was primarily aimed at the incident in which the school that served the lunch, just genuinely appeared to not know what the hell they were doing. Certainly that's what his initial objection seemed to be predicated on; that people were outraged over an insult, where no insult was actually intended. (In a world where there are OTHER examples of actual insults.)
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)later he claimed he had never EVER heard that chicken and watermelon have been used as jokey slurs toward POC. Never heard of it- not he! So, he comments with a snarky OP about it! Okay......
And in the end- he felt really proud of himself jumping in, trying to tell POC how to feel about these slurs.
What an ignorant, embarrassing display.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)One of the posts was hidden, so he won't be back to this thread to explain or clarify or anything.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)trying to argue POC don't have a right to be bothered because the ched- or "cheif" was black? WTeffing F was THAT?
trying to get sympathy here with this poor me, I get called out on racism, boo hoo -is just beyond the fucking pale. sad he finds an audience who swallows this crap whole without a thought.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)A long time ago I got into a huge multi-day fight with him, and then I realized, I'd misunderstood something he'd said. It sucked, I hate it when I do that.
The message around the racism bit could have been better worded for clarity or more explicit about the intent. But when I read through it, as much as I could find, I definitely got a different feel for his intent, than you did.
Perhaps in this case, I should be cutting *you* slack instead, because his defensive sarcasm doesn't lend itself to two disagreeing parties finding agreement.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 10, 2014, 07:35 PM - Edit history (1)
someone be? that shit takes the cake.
desperately responding with insults and profanity- in his own thread about having "adult discussions" is actually pretty darned funny.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)If there is some more calling to ban me, this time for being for being Juror#7, I'm cool with that.
(I've been thrown out of much better places.)
he called me a liar for referencing a thing he did and apologized for- how more full of shit can
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5937396
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
"How more full of shit can a person be" tone down the name calling and personal attacks. I'm wondering who elected this person enforcer.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Dec 10, 2014, 08:09 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Lol, then you throw in a personal attack in your alert? Nope.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: bettyellen already had a post hidden in this "meta-ized" thread, so it appears she might be being alert stalked.
That is disgraceful as this thread is.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)still_one
(92,194 posts)Juror #1 is the perfect reason why the jury system on DU is a joke. Whether a post is valid or not valid should be based on TOS and community standards, NOT on personal beliefs, and the fact that some who serves on the jury find it necessary to inject their personal views where they sympathize with one side over another on the position, and base that vote according to their sympathy on the particular position rather than on whether the post violates TOS or community standards is very flawed.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)bogus alerts. one alert after another, till one sticks. happens often.
that is why you should be a juror!
still_one
(92,194 posts)call. I cannot recall a time where a moderator based a decision on a personal bias. I cannot say the same for the jury system. I appreciate why it is there because resources are an issue, and the powers that be wanted it to be a shared responsibility.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)screw someone over- get them a hide whether deserved or not- to keep them off hosting forums. one hide, and you can't host.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It is, itself, an attack, and profanity laced, but when providing jury results, I normally am careful to in no way tamper with the text.
I probably should sanitize it in this situation...
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)i'd hope at the very least you alerted on it, and didn't "cut them slack".
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I have alerted now.
Edit: I have also removed the comment above, and will do so in the future, in the manner I have done here. Normally I am more concerned with providing the jury commentary exactly as it was, but I should have listened to my gut here and removed that one when I originally posted it.
still_one
(92,194 posts)occur more often than it should have
At least those on a jury who may have a bias seem to have no problem admitting it
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I heard it's incredible too! Let's see it!
Number23
(24,544 posts)So now the watermelon post(s) never happened??! Holy SHIT. If this doesn't take trolling to exciting new heights, nothing EVER will.
UNREAL. I am CRYING laughing at how many people this poster has fooled here. I have no doubt that in a few days we'll get another faux "apology" and the OPs fans will come screaming and wailing about how the OP is the REAL victim of racism. They'll wipe each other's brows and tears and this whole thing will just pick right back up as though none of this ever happened.
And what's really funny about all of this, it's the OPs incessant wailing about being accused of racism that opened up this big old fat, juicy can of worms. If he had just stuck to his lame subject matter and not tried to cut the (EXCEPTIONALLY well noted) accusations of racial cluelessness/insensitivity off at the pass by doing the "you just wait, SOMEBODY will be along shortly to accuse me of being a RACCISST!" none of this would have probably even happened. 
There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING more hilarious or satisfying than watching someone get gored by their own ox. Hoisted by their own petard. Shot in the ass with their own BB gun. I mean, this is some classic funny shit right here. 
This may get hidden. It may not. But either way, it won't do a darn thing to affect my TOTAL enjoyment of this thread.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)because telling POC to get over slurs IS racist bullshit. he HAD to pretend not to know they were harmful slurs he was making light of. he was given no choice, so he went with the "no context" dodge.
Number23
(24,544 posts)CANNOT be for real. Which is something I have been saying forever.
This is some BOOKMARKABLE shit right here. Oh my word.... I have seen people do a lot of bizarre things when told that they've said or done things that are tone deaf/racist/racially insensitive etc. but this is the first time IN MY LIFE that someone has straight up pretended that what was said NEVER HAPPENED -- even when given MULTIPLE LINKS of said foolishness.
Like I said, new and exciting heights here. New and exciting heights indeed.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)a few people. Amazing isn't it? He can't get off this martyr trip! It's pretty bizarre, and totally transparent.
JustAnotherGen
(31,827 posts)I broke up with guys for behaving like that. It's a 'type'.
Journal!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"It wasn't me ... It was just someone that Looked like me and happened to drive a car like mine and has the same phone number as me. Come on, Baby ... Who you gonna believe ...me, or your lyin' eyes? "
JustAnotherGen
(31,827 posts)I didn't. And I wasn't sitting on Errol's lap at The Ontario House when I was talking to you either. I don't even own a behind. You can call home and ask my mom! 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)The "Who Me?" line is found on page 246 of the How to be a Man Handbook.
JustAnotherGen
(31,827 posts)You didn't see that there. 
You saw something else.
Psssssssssssst - you think one of us is going to get alerted on because we are actually having FUN at DU - and folks don't get it?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)neither of us has mentioned the R-word, or the D-word, or been critical of the M-man!
We're safe!
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)
Raine just calmly showed him to the exit on post number ONE.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That's no reason to hide your post though.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
Sid
steve2470
(37,457 posts)
Cha
(297,249 posts)On Tue Dec 9, 2014, 11:55 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
stupid? like not aware that fried chicken and watermelon have been used to slur blacks stupid?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5936982
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
If bettyellen is going to alert troll Manny and get a nonspecific reference to an alleged stupid poster hidden, then her post specifically calling him stupid should be hidden as well.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Dec 10, 2014, 12:09 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: God lord, get a grip.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter needs to get a grip.. quit whining.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: calling him stupid
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Grow up.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh come on. Not buying the Manny-as-misunderstood-victim narrative. Pull the other one.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)me. And assume that like them, I got nothing better to do than alert stalk people here. LOL, it's comforting to know they are waiting on the fringes for me to say something as remotely nasty as what has already been said to me. Keep up the good work, stalkers!
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)said thread's racial insensitivity towards African Americans by posting another thread about "Ashkenazi Jewish foods?"
Because both of those threads are readily available to any DUer by looking for those terms in the helpful search box provided by admin.
And didn't you also post an OP on Michael Brown that was supposed to be a parody, and was taken by many to be offensive?
You don't care about what? That you may have offended Black people with some of your posts?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)was unaware of the history of offensive references. Yeah, I'm sure he heard none of those back in his days a s a republican, lol.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Those particular responses, and the Mike Brown parody, speak volumes.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)sheshe2
(83,772 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)messed up stuff, so pathetic with the faux outrage.
there was a bit too much of it that day. ick.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)punished by all those "low" POC who gave him grief because they do not understand the humor of what he *said* Oh lord, we hear the dog whistles loud and clear. Poor persecuted man, LOL.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and now, it never happened. Incredibly dishonest.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)lol, the dog ate my crappy joke about blacks being racially sensitive!
and then, I forgot it all happened, and called everyone a liar.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)A decent person would apologize.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You owe a lot of us here an apology for that dreck.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)You are a low person who deals in falsehoods.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)not for your sake- you already KNOW that. Just in case anyone is buying these blustery denials about the whole thing. Bullshit.
Just wow.
sheshe2
(83,772 posts)
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)You're saying such a post doesn't exist, but that seems disingenuous to say.
I think DUers should understand the context here.
http://election.democraticunderground.com/10024472335
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024478358
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=6646
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)"A Modest Proposal". Manny's work falls in a long, proud tradition of responding to moral outrage with satire.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)was it reminding you of that part in Huck Finn? Yup!
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)in English letters 
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Obama's speech avoided admitting the ugly fact that his administration is responsible for excusing, hiding and covering up the torture committed by the Bush/Cheney administration.
Torture -- cruel and inexcusable treatment of prisoners (however despicable and cruel themselves) who were captive, helpless, alone and unable to do harm to anyone.
And the torture went on for years even after it should have been clear that the torture was eliciting very little if any useful, truthful information.
Not only did Obama's speech excuse the torture and minimize the horror of the cruelty with which suspects were treated by the CIA and our government, but it glossed over the terrible lies, yes, once again, lies that our government told to cover up its abominations.
The torturers were able to perpetrate their crimes because of the silence and "niceness" of people like me and you who vote for politicians like Bush and Cheney and Obama and Hillary Clinton and many, many others who put on a good show, who pretend to have consciences in order to get elected and then wallow in corruption and moral mediocrity. Pleasant we call them. Just pleasant. "Nice." Nice because they close their eyes to the horror that is done in their names.
Obama's speech today was at the same time inane and both morally corrupt and mediocre. Mediocre because the moment called for greatness that the speech did not provide. Mediocre because this was the moment for a call to moral renewal and there was no such call.
It is pleasant people, people who hate sarcasm and wit, people who are forever and boringly "nice" who enable the kinds of respectable criminals that the torturers who embed themselves in great institutions like the CIA and our NSA are.
The Bush, Cheney torturers' crimes cannot be excused on the ground that the torturers claimed to be motivated by noble purposes .
Noble purposes do not make the crime of torture of helpless captives less despicable, less cruel, less oblivious to the human suffering., to the screams and gasps of the tortured.
Noble purposes do not excuse us from having compassion for the suffering even of criminals, even of those who are themselves cruel if they are completely and totally submitted to our control, if their well being is our responsibility and if we really trust that due process and the rule of law deliver justice. And so Jesus forgave the thief who was crucified with him. Because compassion must be coupled with justice -- always. Because we are all human.
Our Constitution and our nation are founded on the principle that due process and the rule of law will ultimately deliver justice.
Torturers are like parents who savagely beat their children and then claim they did it for their children's own good or to right some wrong.
The CIA, NSA torturers harmed people who were in their custody, people who could do the torturers and our nation no harm, people who were helpless. And they did not just torture their victims until they felt pain and were nearly numb, they continued to commit cruel acts to them once the tortured could no longer resist, had no strength, no power and could pose no harm to anyone.
The torturers continued to torture even when it was obvious that the tortured would or could not provide any information that was not already known, had not already been obtained through other means or was useless.
The torture was sheer sadism, senseless. There is no excuse for it other than peer pressure, weak character, vengeance and venality, the fear of the torturers to resist the pressure from their bosses pushing them to continue to torture.
Manny's sarcastic post responds to the absurdity of the President's speech on torture today. The speech deserved Manny's sarcastic response. The speech trivialized the inexcusable on the ground that it was intended to serve a noble purpose. Nonsense.
It's time to draw a line on torture. Not just in the US but around the world. the people who are in positions to draw the line, however -- like Obama and our attorney general -- do not want to take the risk, make the effort to insure that no one in the future will resort to torture in the name of the United States. They do not want to prosecute or call at least for apologies and reconciliation.
I am not suggesting reconciliation with or apologies to Al Qaeda or even the suspects who were tortured (with the exception of those who were innocent and not involved in terrorism). We know that the culture in those quarters is one that also condones and commits torture. Some of those tortured would have tortured in their turn had they been in the place of our jailkeepers.
I am calling for reconciliation and an apology to the American people and the free world and an acknowledgement from all those who committed and ordered the torture that a) they committed heinous acts on helpless people in their custody however reprehensible the conduct of those people had been, b) that they violated the standards that our Founding Fathers, most notably George Washington established as guidelines in our society -- no cruel and unusual punishment, the right to a fair trial, to confront witnesses, no torture whatsoever, c) that they soiled the reputation of the United States earned for our dedication to moral conduct in war and peace and d) that they have offended the very high standard of fairness that makes us a great nation.
Manny's writing is in a long tradition of satire. It is bound to hit home and make those who hide behind "nice" masks feel uncomfortable. So be it.
Manny is absolutely right to ridicule Obama for his speech today. It was drivel.
Keep it up, Manny.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... if you would just think and talk exactly like you are told, everything would be just swell.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)
ProfessorGAC
(65,044 posts)Figured as much.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)I just got through reading a fairly sizeable OP in GD, which essentially denigrated anyone who criticizes O admin for those remarks/comments in response to the release of the report. It was a shame, because several excellent points were made until it got politically snarky towards the end.
Not going to give you a link, because it's against the rules to call out other DU members.. but it is in GD.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)They are fundamentally the words of our President, a man who's OK with torture, with lying to Congress, with lying to the American people, and with the CIA hacking into Senate computers, stealing documents, then trying to cover it up by threatening staffers with arrest if they didn't STFU. I guess it indirectly applies to DUers who are OK with these activities. Are you?
Second, who made you the Adult-In-Chief? If you don't like what I write, ignoring it is preferred over hectoring.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)Stating that, I understand why they feel like they needed to do it.
I just don't think that it was that effective, humane, smart or even legal.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I see some force feeding in your future.
djean111
(14,255 posts)the answers vaguely address free trade, when only five of the 29 draft chapters deal with trade issues. The rest is corporate takeover of pretty much everything. Food safety, internet freedom, medicine costs, job off-shoring, financial regulation, and more.
Our domestic policies would be required to comply with the TPP rules.
None of the "adults" mentions this - maybe they don't understand it - surely they cannot be for it.
Not even Soylent Green would have country of origin on the label. We wouldn't even know who we were eating.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Our domestic policies would be required to comply with the TPP rules.
Yes...no one mentioned that because that's baseline civics. That's how the Founders set the system up...treaties and bilats become part of our body of laws. That's why Congress votes on them.
This was news to you?
djean111
(14,255 posts)regulations if those rules and regulations keep them from maximizing profits.
So you are saying that it is cute a and precious that we have laws and rules and regulations that we have to follow - but any corporation can ignore them, overturn them, sue for calculated lost profits due to them? In a private tribunal with corporate lawyers as judges?
And that things like this can be negotiated in secret, while the evidently witless citizens are enacting rules and regulations that they feel they should have? Should we just run every rule and regulation and law by Monsanto now, just to see if they approve?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)New Deal. They won.
As to point 2, anybody can sue for anything....just like BP just tried to do. They lost. Further....I'm not understanding why having UNCTAD rule is a bad thing.
As to your third point...treaties are always negotiated in secret, as a power reserved to the Executive. Then voted on. See why it's important to show up to elections?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)these exact arguments you just answered will be raised for the 100th time.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The verbal abuse some get a pass for.
I need some of those right now. Before I hear tomorrow that low, disgusting and swamp dweller aren't insults either.
NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)It is bad because we are a free people not subjects to be ruled.
It is bad because we aren't slaves yearning for a collar.
It is bad because it disenfranchises us all.
It is bad because it undoes our government in the shadows and it is bad because it is on you you wants to change to rule to sell it.
This is bad just in concept, you don't even have to drill down on who is setting the agenda and pulling the strings at UNCTAD which we can rest comfortably it is the usual neolibs, robber barons, feudalists, Libertarians, and greed heads wearing the typical "help developing nations" fig leaf.
Your third point isn't grounded, I'm not sure what good the showing to elections did on this one seeing that I always show up and I'm perplexed what options I should have been selecting even if say I had the only vote but the candidates. I can scarcely think of a single vote for Senate or President where this could have been "taken off the table".
It is also funny that you make this point after calling for UNCTAD rule.
I don't think it is clear what your point is on the first response. Are you saying that that case negates our legal system (If so why bring up the BP case?). Are you saying that the one case is indicative of our system being the same as the arbitration set up by this "agreement" so what difference does make (though I will wonder why do it then we can supposedly change ours) or what exactly?
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)and who have such 100% certainty in their opinions, can get so many basic things about the American system of government wrong.
Really appreciate your posts, msanthrope.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
aspirant
(3,533 posts)Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)reading this summary, feeling sick, and wanting to cry both for the tortured..and the torturers. That such inhumanity went on.....
Sure...all comedy is tragedy plus time. I just think maybe we should wait a whole day.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)the schtick......but seriously, Manny.....
This shit isn't funny. It's sad. There's no way you've had the time to read what's been released yet, and reflect on it....so why this OP?
The people who underwent this torture deserve better....not schtick calling out other DUers.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)JI7
(89,250 posts)but even this isn't about either of those things. just more lame schtick and need for attention.
but i guess some can't resist using anything to make it about them.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Painfully superficial and completely inappropriate.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Andy823
(11,495 posts)YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)but just a few days ago in another thread, someone called Sid Dithers a "shirt stirring right wing troll" and that was left to stand 3-4? One of the damn jurors actually got INDIGNANT that I alerted on that post! Said that people should be allowed to "speak the truth".
But teh jury system works! Or, so we've been told by the admins.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I'm guessing he didn't appreciate the comedic genius of Bill Murray, directed at him.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)With that, I'm gone. Good day.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Can people here have an adult conversation?"
Doubtful. Most of the time, the best we can do is some hand-me-down, fourth-rate petulant, buffoonery masquerading as pasquinade-- almost as comical as Family Circus and Mallard Fillmore, but lacking the latter's subtlety.
MineralMan
(146,316 posts)They occur when the discussion starts as written by an adult and when the respondents are also adults.
An OP like this one does not qualify as the beginning of an adult conversation, so none has occurred.
Adults act as adults when they start threads, and adult conversations ensue.
okaawhatever
(9,462 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Post hoc ergo prompter hoc. Very cool.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)But I'm no expert.
Bryant
MineralMan
(146,316 posts)was written as some sort of parody to call out unnamed DUers. You can't have an adult conversation unless you start one from the beginning.
So, I surmise that the original poster had no real intention of having such an adult conversation at all.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
ETA: Dr. Fate did it earlier, and better than you ever will.
Sid
JI7
(89,250 posts)he posted about as much as i found him annoying at times.
this is just another "MEEEEEE" thread.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)time for a new attention grabbing stunt.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)#Muslimlivesmatter
TBF
(32,062 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)My mother, drunk or sober.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)You got the serious people's undies all tied up in knots.
Bad, Third Way Manny, bad!
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Hekate
(90,692 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:18 AM - Edit history (1)
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)nt
Sweeney
(505 posts)to introduce a subject I was not prepared to cover.
I get the sarcasm, I do; but we torture to let them know we torture. It is one more thing for them to think about, and it is not like it will stop them; and I think the more we show ourselves to be inhuman the less we will be able to stop them. You should never give your enemy a moral edge, but they are not all that nice even to each other. As long as even enough people think all the government says it does to protect them from evil is right, nothing will change. So have the conversation. Don't be a bug on a windshield; be a 747 on a windshield. Change minds first. Press the moral argument honestly. Bring enough people to the point of outrage and something will change. The general demoralization of the people, and their jaded condition makes them all but inert. Just do what you can and let the reaction to you do the rest.
Thanks...Sweeney
marym625
(17,997 posts)Which looks like a witch hunt to me, I forgot to comment on the post itself.
Excellent, Manny. There's no excuse for President Obama's horrendous, horrid response to this report. I believe that his comments will cause more ill will and anger at the USA than the report itself. Much of, in fact the majority of what was released, we already knew. At least the big picture. But to have the current leader of the free world excuse it, is nothing less than asking for trouble.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Which makes me appreciate your kind words all the more.
I am just floored by Obama giving this the "oh grow up" treatment. Torture!
marym625
(17,997 posts)And coming from the guy that said way back when, they should be tried for war crimes. Shame on him.
Sorry, three-way-Manny. 
Response to marym625 (Reply #138)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Three-Way-Mary wouldn't have it any other way. Now we have to find Three-Way-?
Response to marym625 (Reply #155)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
JustAnotherGen
(31,827 posts) 
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Not many posts either
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Out of 183 replies I see about 20 of those replies. Manny pissed off the right people!
Hatchling
(2,323 posts)And may you have a Blessed Soltice.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)You too! Blessed Be!
Triana
(22,666 posts)....NOT.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Mmmm... Soylent Green...
-Homer Simpson
