It's shameful and embarrassing that misogyny continues to be an issue on the Internet

[YoungDemCA]

Whether it be on this forum (supposedly a progressive, Democratic Party supporting forum), or anywhere else on the Internet (Facebook, Twitter, etc...take your pick).

Women make up half the human species, yet they are being effectively silenced online by openly hostile trolls who seethe with misogynistic contempt toward women (along with people of color, and members of the LGBT community, and anyone else who doesn't fit the trolls' normative perspective of power and privilege).

To the admins here, please, please, please deal with this issue by taking misogyny seriously. There are too many quality posters who have been driven off this forum because of it, for one thing. And for another...it's simply not acceptable behavior. Many people and groups-in the United States and around the world-have already begun to seriously move toward creating spaces that are more inclusive of women and other socially marginalized groups. This shouldn't be such a complicated or difficult thing to do for us here at DU.

[TDale313]

1. Abso-fuckin'-lutely!!!

If the admins here wanted to, they could address this on DU. They've chosen not to.

[ismnotwasm]

2. I think we're a bit behind.

Like trying to run windows 8

[AverageJoe90]

3. True.

It doesn't really help, unfortunately, when people end up overstating the already existing problem, here on DU at least.

To be truthful, I get that there's some who have had some pretty bad individual experiences.....and my heart goes out to them. What I'm trying to say is, we do need to be careful. If we make the wrong moves, it could potentially drive a lot of prospective people off this site.

With that said, though, I know that the admins are trying, and, they've done a decent job so far. But it does seem to be true that we haven't rooted out as deep-cover trolls as could be possible. And if not, then we do need to step up our vigilance on that.

I honestly dunno what else I can say here.

[hifiguy]

55. +1

[Tuesday Afternoon]

60. This =

But it does seem to be true that we haven't rooted out as deep-cover trolls as could be possible.

If those few were gone and, with a small change in the wording of the ToS this problem would be solved.

[backwoodsbob]

171. how do you suggest the admins deal with it?

be specific

[nomorenomore08]

119. Just adding a couple of words to the TOS would make a difference in how the problem is approached.

As things stand now, even a clearly misogynist comment can be subject to a form of "plausible deniability." And anti-feminist trolls more or less have free reign here, so long as they don't cross some arbitrary (and frequently shifting) line.

[Iron Man]

4. Okay.

Most here get that.

Why are there several threads about it on this site?

[justiceischeap]

5. If you have to ask, you don't get it

And trying to moderate who can post what and how much on this particular topic isn't going to win you any favors.

[Iron Man]

6. This website, regardless what some say, isn't an MRA haven.

[Veilex]

14. There are those who would disagree with you...

obviously you know this. Just keep in mind the quote "There is no pleasing some people".

[Niceguy1]

174. +1

----》 "There is no pleasing some people"

[seabeyond]

25. are you aware, we had a man tell us, the conversation in a thread about womens voice...

that the reason a particular poster was disagreeing with us, supporting his man position, was obviously cause.... she is alpha. doesnt that say it all after all, in the mans world?

so. all us women, talking pragmatically about the issue are dismissed, cause in his mans world, obviously we were beta... or lower in the heirarchy. (still following?)

he basically called us girls, in his male perspective. as an insult. got that?

the weak ones. not alpha. little girls.

that. would be sexist. condescending. a poor fated insult.

since talking to you last night? i have seen oh... more than a handful, fistful, score of sexist comments to shut down our present conversation.

that would be creating an hostile environment for women to shut them up. that is undemocratic, liberal, progressive. that is what we are saying no, to.

many would not pick it up. the vast majority. many would let it stands. it is not even a consideration to alert on.

[Iron Man]

26. I thought I mended fences last night.

I don't have time to deal with drama here. I have enough drama to deal with elsewhere.

[seabeyond]

31. ah. see. you said you were not informed. that you wanted to be informed.

silly me. i took that to heart.

drama?

ya.

got your point clearly, as all will when they read it, too. cause it is not like we do not hear that tens times a day, for years... a lifetime.

[Iron Man]

32. This thread, and your response, proves my point.

Good day.

[seabeyond]

33. we agree on that one. for sure. nt

[chervilant]

131. You're relatively new here.

So, how do you know DU isn't an MRA haven?

(Just FYI, you'll not win friends here by posting the types of comments with which we feminists take issue.)

[Iron Man]

133. You take issue with what?

Point me in the direction where there are MRA posts.

I can wait.

[Veilex]

177. You'll be waiting a while

[Iron Man]

178. That's because it's non-existent.

[Veilex]

180. Exactly...

But, that is one of the problems with being part of an aggrieved party, it becomes very easy to think the world is against you wherever you go.

I've been with DU quite a long time, and rarely do members here tolerate blatantly offensive commentary... and certainly never for long. We do get the occasional false flag infiltration... the occasional troll... but even then, this site is far better at dealing with those than any other site out there.

Also, in my humble opinion, it is better than most sites out there in terms of the level of diverse support.

We've got a great thing here.

[chervilant]

179. It was YOUR comment

I was addressing.

And, you can do your own search for the data you've requested. IF, that is, you're sincerely interested.

[cyberswede]

134. Who is this "some," specifically?

I can wait.

[Iron Man]

135. Read this thread.

Your turn.

[cyberswede]

136. My turn for what?

Don't see anyone saying DU is an MRA haven.

[Iron Man]

137. Not ouright.

This place is great. This forum is probably the least misogynistic of any site I've been on.

[cyberswede]

139. This place is great, but it's not perfect.

But I hope you still feel the same way after you've been here longer than a month.

[Iron Man]

140. You're right.

It's not perfect. But no one site is perfect.

People here rip tea partiers and certifiable whackos like Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. I'd rather see that than members fighting with each other.

[cyberswede]

141. Well, one way to avoid a lot of that is to eschew posts on gender issues.

And yes, DUers are really good at sticking it to the RW whackadoodles.

[seabeyond]

149. and in its imperfection, feminists are going to call it out. each and every one. that is what

feminists do. as a progressive community, i would htink that each and every poster would stand with women, when it is being called out. again, progressive board.

[Skittles]

8. you're really not so iron are you?

you seem very easily threatened

[Katashi_itto]

38. It's this months Outrage.

[ProfessorGAC]

52. Or Is It Tedium? (eom)

Everyone lecturing everyone else ignoring the fact the vast majority isn't actually arguing either point.

When the vast majority essentially agrees, it just gets old to see the in-fighting.

[Katashi_itto]

58. Agree, it's more like tedium. I really have no issues with what their saying. It's simply as if

they think they've cornered the market on outrage somehow, on DU and everyone should listen to the umpeenth post on how outraged they are about it. Plus the outrage rotates between four or five subjects on a monthly basis. You can practically time it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

63. speaking of time ... you are right on it.

Sorry about the Kendo match, btw. Hope your toe does not fester.

[Katashi_itto]

90. Thank you. Nope its an avulsion fracture or Dancer's Fracture. Its the same sort of injury

ballerinas get. We both attack or in a ballerina's case, dance off the toes. I think of the two disciplines though, ballerinas are much more brutal to their feet.
http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/4f/eb/fotografia,japan,kendo-4feb8aca3cd36847216c9f7cc8524590_h.jpg?ts=93246

[Tuesday Afternoon]

98. my poor feet. I took ballet for many years. my feet took the toll then and now seems my hips

are paying for it. lol

[Katashi_itto]

138. I just had my hip replaced back in Dec 2013. It was the result of a car accident

several years earlier. The accident messed me up bad. I never thought I would do martial arts again.

Had Two major surgeries in three years.

Get the hip replaced if needed. Don't wait. When my hip was finally replaced it was touching bone in three places. Pain was maddening.

The difference after you get past the pain is fantastic.

I went from essentially a medical shut in, to back to my Kendo and Aikido. And I am in good shape.

Lots more to work on but I now look at everything as a journey not at the final destination.

It's the process that's important not the final ending.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

142. ah ... yeah ... they are not that bad, thank goodness. but, I can tell they do not

rotate/turn out in the ballet parlance like they once did

[Katashi_itto]

146. Thats cool thank goodness!

[sufrommich]

73. If only you weren't forced to comment on threads that don't

interest you.

[Katashi_itto]

85. Someone has a sad.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

61. if you find it so tedious why are you in this thread?

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

when you have some few following you around and making snide, condescending provocative posts enticing you. baiting you ... just to see how long it will take to get your goat ... and then alert and take their chances with a jury ... maybe then you will understand.

and if it is a silent majority why are so many of mine, Baine's and seabeyond's posts hidden?

I would call Bullshit but, as you may or may not know seabeyond got a hide for using that word

and

I would laugh at the irony of your post but, Baine's got a hide for this

So, you see the issue here, right?

[Marr]

75. There's been plenty of childish alert-stalking both ways.

I find myself on these ridiculous juries almost every day, clicking "leave it alone" on posts from both groups that never should've been alerted on.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

79. I do not alert so I know you can not be talking to me. n/t

[Marr]

80. Did I say anything about you?

I said I find myself on juries concerning posts with no discernible violation of the rules, from both the most vocal feminists on the board and the people they most regularly seem to spar with. Those posts are usually in misogyny threads, but not always.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

82. You replied to me about alerts. I can only control my own actions/non-actions. If you have an

issue with the alert system/jury duty, I would think you should ask about it in ATA or else, you can always un-select the jury option.

My fellow DUers have seen fit to un-select it for me, as my chances of serving are now at 0%.

So, you see, I have little tolerance for complaints about jury service.

I really don't know why you chose to interject your remark to me at this juncture of the sub-thread.

Peace.

[Marr]

97. Because you suggested the alert-stalking was somehow one-sided,

or that one faction here was being victimized.

I see two groups of equally childish people playing equally childish games. My complaint isn't about my time being wasted with these silly slap fights, it's that your post painted the picture of it being one-sided. It isn't. But I can see why you'd assume as much, having zero percent chance of actually serving on these juries.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

101. I spoke only to specifics that I myself am aware of ... mainly my own experience and gave

two examples of what I know transpired on two other occasions.

I am assuming nothing and, only stated some pertinent facts as I know them to be.

I see two groups of equally childish people playing equally childish games.

Let me make sure that I understand your position perfectly clear with this above statement.

Are you saying that you consider Feminism/Human Rights to be a childish game?

is that what you are saying?

as for playing games of any nature, I ask you how can -I- be participating in the playing of a game when I don't alert and, I am not allowed to sit for jury duty?

Please explain.

[Marr]

103. I don't know how to say this any more simply.

These alert-stalking games are childish, and being played by both groups.

Your attempt to twist that into "Feminism/Human Rights is a childish game" by paring the statement down is exactly the kind of childish, deceitful nonsense I'm talking about. And it's particularly absurd when you consider the fact that you started off bemoaning the way some posters try to coax rude comments from others.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

104. are you calling me a Liar?

childish, deceitful. my attempt?

to ask you to clarify YOUR statements???

good lord.

done.

You have a very funny way of looking at things, I must say.

Peace out.

[Marr]

106. Your characterization of my words was woefully inaccurate.

Let us say I am paying you the compliment of assuming that misinterpretation was intentional.

Look, I don't expect this crap to stop anytime soon. But your suggestion of one-sided persecution here was not accurate, judging from the juries I've been in recently. That is all I'm saying.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

107. you don't have to pay me anything.

and this crap as you say ...

oh good lord never mind.

I think the discerning readers can decide from their own selves what just transpired here.

You have not fooled me nor, any other astute DUer of which there are a few and, not on just any one side or another.

Peace Out.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

169. Welcome back to DU. Enjoy your stay.

[Katashi_itto]

91. Again, this is not one of your closed groups. I will post where I decide to.

Posted out on GD it's fair game.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

92. I asked a question of Professor GAC and now two people other than him have replied to me

Last edited Sat Aug 30, 2014, 07:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Are you getting your socks confused or what? I don't care what or where you post or to whom.

This sub-thread is very bizarre, I must say.

[Katashi_itto]

94. Ok that was weird. I agree. It was reading from you till I refreshed it.

Or to many pain pills for the fracture! ...I'm currently a very happy camper.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

96. good to know. Sorry to hear about the fractured toe. hope it heals quickly.

[Katashi_itto]

100. It will went to the VA hospital and they said it's a clean break.

Will have to fall back and practice Iaido (live sword drawing) until it gets better. Think yoga with a sword I guess. But it won't put much stress on the foot.

[ProfessorGAC]

143. I'm Here Because I Felt Like It

And i'm free to comment on any topic i like. Your derision is misplaced as it your attempt to decide who gets to post about what.
BTW: If you're such a genius why don't you know that i've been on juries that voted to leave posts written by the very posters mentioned.

Last point: Just because i think a topic can be beaten to death doesn't mean i dont' see a problem. That's when it becomes tedious. It's tedious because the point gets so narrow and hyperintensified that there is no diaglogue, to the point where folks like me who not the problem get castigated by people like you. Your looking for the enemy everywhere when you should be looking for the enemy where the enemy is.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

161. I asked you a straight up question. How you detect derision from that I will never know. -

I seek no enemy. I am not the one living for hostility.

I will refrain from ever replying to you again. Near as I can tell, you have nothing of consequence to say anyway.

Any one that takes the time to report their tedium should expect a *Why Bother* question as the Admin have put in place many tools to relieve said tedium.

Sorry, I bothered you.
Peace.

[seabeyond]

166. hey. on that, and excellent post. i would love to never reply to some people, that arent interested

what a waste of time. or a single comment to refute and move on. i wont give up my right to challenge. but....

how do you think you will remember, this poster, do not speak to, cause i gotta tell you.... getting old and stuff, a moment in universe does NOT leave an impression.

no way would i remember to not saying anything to any given poster. that info is just not being stored. ya know.

was talking to another poster about this just now. and saw your post. a total derailing. lol. my bad.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

168. I may not remember, seabeyond. And Actually this is not good. What is being done here is

a DUer being so disagreeable as to leave such a memory that stifles discussion. Another way of silencing.

I really need to rethink all this.

Thing is, I want to discuss and cooperate and work together to build a better community for all.

I do not want to argue and sling insults. I really don't. I know that I can do that and am actually quite good at it but, that is not what I want going forward.

Quite the conundrum, isn't it.

I guess I will reply when I can say something positive and helpful and peaceful. If the ProfessorGAC ever contributes something on that level then I would be happy to discuss it with him.

Peace.

[seabeyond]

170. it is like a meme went out. if they put forth an argument, say they are rude, and you will not talk

them.

like... they cant make you. or something. i do not know. but it has been three, four, five posters i do not know, telling me, i am not allowed to make a reply to them. what is this?

i like to understand.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

175. The way the tables are turned is amazing.

Just by someone saying = You are rude. Automatically puts one in defensive mode and inherently demanding an apology.

when, in fact, that is NOT what just occurred.

BUT,

They do not want to address the questions put forth so ...

easy way out.

Claim the other is rude and move on.

I am really at a loss here to see where I was the rude one. I was not the one entering a thread to announce how tedious it all is.

Thing is ... while a man may find Women's Issues to be tedious ... that. in and of itself is dismissive attitude but, why bother entering the thread at all? Only reason I know of is to lord it over the women on just how boring and tedious are Our Issues. Our HUMAN RIGHTS are tedious. Really?

Let us examine the word tedious so that we may fully understand just exactly what it is ProfessorGAC has to say =

te·di·ous
ˈtēdēəs/
adjective
adjective: tedious

too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous.
"a tedious journey"
synonyms: boring, dull, monotonous, repetitive, unrelieved, unvaried, uneventful; More
characterless, colorless, lifeless, insipid, uninteresting, unexciting, uninspiring, uninvolving, flat, bland, dry, stale, tired, lackluster, stodgy, dreary, mundane, monochrome;
mind-numbing, soul-destroying, wearisome, tiring, tiresome, irksome, trying, frustrating;
informaldeadly, not up to much, humdrum, ho-hum, blah, dullsville, 'same old, same old'
"work on the assembly line was tedious"
antonyms: exciting

Origin
late Middle English: from Old French tedieus or late Latin taediosus, from Latin taedium (see tedium).

[ProfessorGAC]

198. I Gave You A Straight Answer

I felt like replying. I felt what i had to say needed to be said. You're entitled to take it or leave it.

Your Why Bother question was answered. I did it because it felt like saying it. Pretty straightforward answer. You asked a question, i answered it. Then. . .

You say you're not living for hostility but your entire post is hostile. Consistency not your strong suit?

I'll not be able to take your apology and tag line as sincere. Seems pretty obvious you don't wish me well.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

199. You are right. You have the privilege to come in any thread you want

and dismiss it (and all others on that topic) as tedious any time you want.

If you think coming in a thread and announcing the subject matter to be tedious is not being hostile, dismissive and condescending, then you and I doubt you and I will ever come to any understanding, much less peace.

Good bye.

[ProfessorGAC]

200. Then We Agree To Disagree

And that's perfectly ok. Actually you helped make my point. The other threads offered NO room for disagreement.
We've just proved that's not true.
You did that without being aware ot if.
Thanks

[ProfessorGAC]

201. BTW

I have been married for 34+ years. I respect and love my wife. I respect and love my sister and my SIL's. I loved and resepected my mom until she died. My dad taught me that.
You don't know what you think you know. I'm not one of the bad guys. You've decided i am one. You were wrong.
Hope you're happy

[Tuesday Afternoon]

202. I never said you were anything. Also,

What I am aware of is more than you care to hear about. Also you replied to yourself.

[etherealtruth]

76. The presence of multiple threads , by multiple posters should give an indication ...

... that for many here it is seen as a significant problem. A problem we would like to see addressed.

[Cal Carpenter]

191. "Getting it" isn't the point

We are on a site run by 3 dudes. Well-intentioned ones, I gather, but dudes nonetheless.

There needs to be an honest discussion about this and something's gotta change. Many, many women are alienated by, shall I say, the 'tone' of this site, in terms of passive-aggressive yet 'civil' sexism being acceptable, and calling it out being frowned upon or hidden as being a personal attack. Civility is overrated sometimes. Truth matters.

It's fucked up. Whether or not most people 'get it' in some theoretical way is not the point. The point is that the problem is systemic. It is built into the system and culture and ownership of the internet. DU is part of that.

[Kath1]

7. Absolutely right.

I was thinking this morning, at least 50% of the people I see out here on this road at 6:30 AM are women - hard-working, tax paying citizens on their way to work. Probably going to work at a job they can't stand. I think they deserve respect - here and everywhere.

[seabeyond]

9. excellent post young. lets start a campaign to jump on the hot net issue around the world,

starting with this progressive board and become active participants on doing what we can to join with the other board, dealing with the issue.

very very good OP young.

thank you

[Cleita]

10. It's not an issue except among those who make it an issue

to distract from the real issues. I'm a woman and have been posting here for over a decade. I have never felt socially marginalized in all that time until recently in the last six months I was told I wasn't one of my own gender by those who claim to be the final word on all things female.

[TransitJohn]

11. +1

Good post.

[cyberswede]

13. Are you fucking kidding me?

Do you say that to people concerned with racism? Homophobia?

[KitSileya]

16. Oh, Cleita thinks that sexual harassment is all in women's heads.

She believes that women "are only a sex object when they let it happen to them", and if you have experienced street harassment, it's because you live in a different, "sick" world than her, that pointing out misogyny and sexual objectification is "being mean", and if we feel uncomfortable with misogynistic posts in GD, we shouldn't come here, we are "perpetual victims", and if someone isn't banned when they post something misogynistic, that means that the misogyny is "in our head."

[cyberswede]

17. Holy shit. nt

[KitSileya]

18. That's about the only proper reaction, yes.

Wasn't there just a post about how misogyny is allowed on DU, and that the owners should be more pro-active about clamping down on it? Misogyny is alive and well and flourishing on DU, methinks.

[Veilex]

23. I do think Misogyny is present... but I still dont think its as servere as has been claimed...

However, all those comments by Cleita are certainly a bit over the top.

[KitSileya]

35. But not a bannable offense, or even worth a hide, as you can see.

It certainly taught me what Skinner et. al. considered most important on this site.

[Veilex]

42. I don't really feel that's fair to Skinner...

This site is billed as a political website... not a pro-insert-specific-aggrieved-group's-rights-here website.
If anything, this website adheres to the notion of free speech and self governance as much as is reasonably possible. Just because a person disagrees with a stance we have doesn't mean they're automatically wrong and deserving of a ban/hide etc.

More importantly, Skinner has largely placed judgment into the hands of the DU community... in as democratic a way as is possible. That may mean that occasionally, objectionable material gets through... but that's part of having free speech... everyone gets a say, so long as they don't violate specific tenets set fourth by Skinner and the moderators... and the community doesn't vote to hide the topic.

This may prompt you to point out, as some have, that the system isn't working as intended or is broken somehow... I'd argue no system is perfect, but that in my estimation, the system here is considerably better than damn near any alternative out there in internet land.

While I do largely disagree with Cleita's statements... has she (he?) said anything that is carte blanch offensive? To some, yes... but it is largely just her opinion... as opposed to say a personal attack or threat/implication of violence for example.

You want this site to be far more pro-feminism than where you perceive it being... I totally get that. However, pro-feminism doesn't necessarily mean shutting down other people's opinions...even if they're wrong. Rather it should, in my humble opinion, be more focused on changing societal views... and less on perceived problem individuals.

But, then again, I say this as a former Feminist who's been exposed to too much of the toxic variety of feminism, and have chosen to self Identify as an Egalitarian instead... so, I come from a perspective that has seen both sides of the argument act excessively poorly.

[KitSileya]

45. Sexism is not a tos offense.

It's not in the tos. How can the jury hide something as against the tos when sexism isn't in the tos?

As for shutting down other people's opinions? We have plenty of things that aren't allowed to be said on DU. it is a private website, run by Skinner, Elad et al. They can decide they want this website to be more progressive on feminist issues, so that feminists on this website don't have to keep spending energy on feminism 101 issues, and instead could work on more advanced feminism. However, they have chosen not to do that.

[Veilex]

48. "Sexism is not a tos offense" Indeed it is...

Under the "No bigoted hate speech" section

First sentence: "Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender..."
While the TOS may not specifically enumerate the word "sexism", gender based bigotry covers this area.

[KitSileya]

50. It covers it very perfunctorily.

No bigoted hate speech.
Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. To be clear: This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood. In determining what constitutes bigotry, please be aware that we cannot know what is in anyone's heart, and we will give members the benefit of the doubt, when — and only when — such doubt exists.

They had to include the first explanation after the awful way QUILTBAG DUers were treated here - they spend even more words on being explicit with regards to anti-semitism. No such elaboration about racism and sexism - why not? It is amply shown by persons of color and women that racism and sexism is a problem on DU.

But I'll stand somewhat corrected on this - all the while DU bleeds feminist and African-American DUers.

[Veilex]

59. Here's what I see...

Honestly, I see no one committing actions that warrant additional language. Adding language specific to an issue often results after a flare up of specific problems... much in the way a corporation changes policies and contracts reactively... so too do websites such as DU react to problem areas in a more enumerated fashion.

Sexism is a relatively minor issue on this site... in part because of the sizable community of Feminists and supporters... so additional language is largely unnecessary.

I tend to see very little genuine sexism on this site... once in a while it pops up...usually just before being brutally smashed to bits. Occasionally, I see comments that might be innocent (I tend to try to give people the benefit of the doubt), get taken out of context or misconstrued as being sexist... I see that more than actual sexism on this site.

I cant speak to racism, except to say I've not seen any.

This is not to say these issues don't exist on DU... but I honestly feel they're far less than presumed.

Regardless, if you truly think there needs to be added language to the TOS, you can always ask the Administrators to add clarifying language: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1259
They might say no, though... then again, they may decide it was an oversight.
Only one way to find out.

[seabeyond]

151. every once in a while you see it. how much is directed at you, how often are you in the right place?

do you think that may color your perception.

example: about every woman has experienced street harassment a number of times in their lives. about EVERY woman, and a NUMBER of times in a lifetime. men say. i do not see it. ever.

so? that makes our experience invisible? less? it didnt happen?

when about every woman says, she has experienced street harassment and tells the experience, it is being dismissed with, .... i do not see it.

not directed at you men. and not directed at women, when a man is around. no you do not see it. doesnt mean it is not happen, or a womans experience is dismissed.

we have been posting on this board a decade or more with the same people. you do not think we do not know each others position? argument? so when a poster says something innocuous, it may go over most peoples head. those us of that have been following along in the conversation for years, know damn well what is being said. and the posters count on the fact others will not get the jab and it will not be hidden. sexism is sexism. whether in your face, or quiet. it is still sexism. it flavors conversation, environment, interaction with each other.

again. because you do not see it, does not mean it is not there.

last point. this is interesting to me. you say when it does happen, it is nipped in the bud cause of the strong feminist community. so let me ask you, what do you think it takes out of us, each and every time we have to call out the same bullshit. even if it is only every couple weeks. yea... you all get a more comfortable, sexist free place to be. and once again, we are having to spend our energy confronting, addressing, taking insults and mischaracterizations and all kinds of crap. bully for du, that the strong presence ensures a more comfortable, less hostile environment. then, the twist, what happens? we are the villians. throw out a hof insult, all is good. start a thread about me, say my uterus is too old to be birthing two boys, or create a rape porn scene for me, call me the b word, that is fine. i deserve it. for being a part of shutting down the sexism. that makes it so convenient for so many.

so, you can wrap your post up in a whole lot of meh... but when you unwrap it, it is not so insignificant.

just a couple points to think about.

[seabeyond]

51. hence, the issue. i have read consistently sexism is not part of tos, regardless your interpretation

on jury comments.

[tammywammy]

83. Juries don't enforce the TOS, admins do.

The admins have stated sexism is covered under the bigoted hate speech about gender. Here are two threads from ATA where Skinner discusses that sexism is covered.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259373
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12591107

[treestar]

22. It's that "I'm tougher than you and can handle it" stance

that tacitly allows the misogynist to keep doing it, we won't complain, because we are "tough" and can "handle" it.

I too haven't experienced much harassment, but that doesn't mean I don't get that it's a symptom of male supremacy.

[KitSileya]

37. She admits that she had to fight misogyny when she was younger.

However, now she doesn't care how the younger generations of women have it - her generation had it bad, women in my generation have themselves to blame for street harassment and assault, apparently. Describing factually my own experiences is a symptom of me being mentally ill and therefore not seeing the world clearly, I guess is her opinion. We let ourselves be street harassed, after all.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

27. Thank you for putting that all together.

Follow the trail of blue links and a pattern emerges.

Lists.

Yeah, lists.

Dig it.

[KitSileya]

36. I have never posted something like that before.

I try not to attack individual DUers, but to be told that what has happened to me throughout the years was my own fault, and what's more, that I created the world in which it happens because of what she calls me being mentally sick, was incredibly hurtful. But it opened my eyes so very much to what DU has become.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. I understand, KitSileya.

Stay Strong.

[JustAnotherGen]

30. Wow

[randome]

47. There is a middle ground.

Somewhere between stopping people from belittling you and crying too often that one is a victim. It's that middle ground that often gets lost in these discussions.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[KitSileya]

49. In this case, there is no middle ground.

When a woman who relates her experiences with sexual assault and harassment is told that it is her own fault, there can be no middle ground. That is not "crying too often that one is a victim." That is victim blaming.

[randome]

54. Assault, of course.

But harassment is often nothing more than rude and crude statements. 'Nothing more' is, of course, my interpretation and I am not female and am not harassed. Still, I've always found it more productive when a stupid remark is aimed at me to belittle the speaker with a chuckle and a denigrating response rather than conveying the idea that I am hurt by the stupid words of a moron.

You cede power to that type of idiot if the only thing you convey to them is that they've hurt your feelings.

That's the only point I wanted to make. That's the 'middle ground' I meant.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tuesday Afternoon]

64. I suggest to you that it is the other side playing the role of the victim in all this.

Do you tell POCs and LGBTs to seek middle ground? Do you? Really?

[randome]

67. I agree, victimhood comes also from those who whine about others' objections.

But rude and crude comments? I still say a good verbal brush-off and promoting the idea that the speaker is insignificant is more effective than complaining.

Can 'rude and crude' go to extremes where that isn't easy to do? Of course. But the occasional dumb remark by an idiot should be treated as a dumb remark by an idiot. IMO.

And saying "Behave better!" does nothing to convince an idiot he is an idiot.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tuesday Afternoon]

69. do you care to comment on my question or not?

[randome]

74. For stupid remarks made by morons, that is what I would advise.

Mock and belittle them when possible. That will do more -in most but not all- cases to 'encourage' them to change their tune.

"Behave better!" isn't much of a strategy.

It's an entirely different situation when one's job is at stake or the 'rude and crude' affects one's lifestyle, promotions, or ends up making your life miserable.

Again, I am not in any of these situations but that's how it seems to me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tuesday Afternoon]

77. that is your reply to POC and LGBT about seeking middle ground? ok. n/t

[randome]

81. It depends on the situation.

I'm not talking about shooting an unarmed kid or trying to assault a woman in the elevator or any of those things.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tuesday Afternoon]

86. Good to know you are selective in your approach to equality. I am quite sure that gives POC and LGBT

some small measure of comfort.

[randome]

84. Sometimes mockery is more effective.

As in this OP about ISIS. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025466165

Granted, this isn't going to stop murdering monsters from being murdering monsters but I wasn't talking about those kind of extremes. My point is that mockery and dismissal sometimes have an effect and should not be underestimated.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tuesday Afternoon]

88. I am done here. Peace.

[nomorenomore08]

123. Mockery and quiet contempt have their place. However, they're not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Sometimes you just really need to get up in an ignorant asshole's face. If only to let him know that his bullshit won't be tolerated around here.

[randome]

144. Agree. I wish more of that would occur.

Instead, too often women take the insult then complain it about it in an indirect manner. Possibly due to societal conditioning for women to remain meek and submissive but, damn, I would love to know there is more sturm and drang taking place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Laelth]

150. Deborah Tannen's work on gendered communication styles is instructive.

You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation is seminal.

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

153. i dunno. about every one of my hides has been calling it out. not the one making it, me calling it

out.

how conducive is our environment to allow her to call it out?

[KitSileya]

72. Second post, and it's misogynistic?

Have a nice stay

[Veilex]

15. It is awsome that you've risen above it... however...

There are many women still afflicted by inequality.

Though I do think it is less of an issue on this website than a small number of vocal individuals make it out to be.

[Cleita]

20. Thank you. My point exactly.

The Administrators have gone out of their way to make this website comfortable for women and the constant whining about it by a few saying it isn't so has to be a slap in the face to them.

[seabeyond]

43. the small vocals is not so small. as a matter of fact, it is the vast majority. if you actually pay

attention, that is. there are some that like to say it is just a few, a small group (hof), "small number of vocal individuals "

totally dismissing all the many many voices strong. why is that? i do not get it. there is no way that can be said, looking at the facts.

i assume it is to dismiss such a loud, large, group of voice, in unity.

[alphafemale]

56. But they feel free to pile on you like sharks on a wounded seal.

You are not allowed to express the way think like you think.

Even though you are a woman.

You are not the RIGHT kind of woman in their opinion.

You will be assimilated.

[MadrasT]

152. If you as tough as you say you are in the face of verbal/online abuse by men

I find it odd that you seem to be so threatened by women who speak out.

[seabeyond]

154. interesting point. i love your eyes. they so often see from a different angle.

yes.

[alphafemale]

163. I was referring to the pile on of Cleita. Did I once use the personal pronoun "I" in that statement

When I am referring to myself I use the pronoun "I."

And no one was expressing an opinion so much as berating her.

[seabeyond]

183. wait. you do not believe in defending others. that is your point. but, you do for clieta.

a woman that is pissed cause a woman told about a lifetime of rape and clieta called her a liar.

so people said, hey... that is mean.

and then you criticize the defense of a woman.

by defending a woman.

i am so fuggin' confused.

[Warpy]

12. DU is better than most places

The left is still far ahead of the right in this regard, although it still seems to be terribly difficult for men to listen to what women are saying about our treatment and what is doing to us.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. DU's pretty good...

I suspect that most men at DU are already on the same page as us when it comes to women's issues, and instead of treating them as enemies like I've seen happen at times, treat them as feminists and allies and focus on what the real battles are...

[Veilex]

24. There are quite a few of us who'd appreciate this...

I for one have dealt with enough toxicity by feminists, who chose to attack me because I'm a guy, that I've abandoned the title of Feminist in favor of Egalitarian.

[seabeyond]

44. and just ignore when they tell a feminist to just get laid, to shut her up, of course. really?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

93. question for you =

what is the proper response to someone who tells us to get laid?

You know, what do you say to that ?

Something that will not be alerted and hidden.

Because I am at a loss to know how to diplomatically/tactfully reply to such rudeness as that.

[seabeyond]

95. my only response would be fuck you. i would have to decide if i could take the hide.

if no hide, i would have to walk.

[randome]

99. "With anyone but you, loser."?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tuesday Afternoon]

102. fail. sorry, but Just fail on the basic premise. I choose when and where and who and how.

and just because I am disagreeing with someone over something of substance does NOT mean I need to get laid.

that someone even says it means that have already lost the debate, imo.

[Violet_Crumble]

105. Huh? Most men at DU don't do that...

Also, I don't know why you limited that to just being feminists as a target. Why wouldn't it be women?

[seabeyond]

108. you are right violet, most men do not. nor did i say or imply most men did. isnt ONE too many?

and because it was directed at a hof member.

[Violet_Crumble]

110. So, you weren't actually addressing anything I said in my post?

That explains why that reply made no sense at all...

[seabeyond]

111. nobody has suggested most men are a problem, nor is anyone treating most men poorly.

hence, the whole of your post implies something that simply is not even true. a fabricated argument. what, a straw man. the few men, regulars, longer times that are issues, that we are discussing... i gave an example of one, that was allowed, accepted and not challenged.

you created a scenario that no one believes. that is really easy to argue.

and somehow, i got wrapped up in conversation with people i have absolutely no desire to put the time in. so. my bad. i am sorry. i will not be replying any more.

[Violet_Crumble]

113. And yr still insisting on not addressing anything I said in my post...

Here's what I said;

DU's pretty good...

I suspect that most men at DU are already on the same page as us when it comes to women's issues, and instead of treating them as enemies like I've seen happen at times, treat them as feminists and allies and focus on what the real battles are...

So, what was it about what I said that's such a fabrication? What prompted you, unlike others who responded positively, to pretend I'd said something else entirely and respond with something that had zero to do with what I'd said?

Apology accepted, though I think reading and understanding what I said in my original post would have saved you so much time...

[hifiguy]

57. There is so much common ground on so many issues

(choice, health care access/affordability, economic justice, anti-militarism/imperialism, to name but a few) yet there are those willing to create or exploit fault lines and those who treat principled disagreement, as opposed to trolling, as inexcusable and intolerable.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

34. 635 views of the OP, 21 recs.

Now I don't know, maybe the 'view' count goes up every time somebody refreshes the page, or replies to another comment. But it seems to me like a call for admins to start being a bit more proactive on this front should get a better rec to view ratio.

[leftyladyfrommo]

21. Misogyny is still a huge issue in our whole culture.

Why would you not expect it to show up in spades on the internet?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. first DU then the whole internet.

[geek tragedy]

29. The misogynist creeps got bored with discussionist

Now they're back here.

[Comrade Grumpy]

40. I stay away from Reddit. I don't see it as much of a problem here, though.

Of course, I stayed out of the whole Spiderwoman's butt debate.

[nomorenomore08]

124. I stayed out of that too. Especially since I had no real opinion beyond "that's stupid."

But I accept that every individual's experience is different, and that enough people have spoken up about DU's misogyny problem (and its racism problem, and its homophobia problem) to make me believe said problem is legitimate. Beyond what I've seen with my own eyes, which, for a progressive site, has been rather astonishing at times.

[randome]

41. Then you must be having a fit knowing what's happening in the Middle East.

While I agree there is misogyny in the world today, I find it difficult to see what anyone hopes to accomplish by saying, "Behave better!" I think you need to impart more information to convert some of those who need converting.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[leftyladyfrommo]

62. I'm not convinced that you can convert anyone.

I wish that younger women would take a really serious look at this culture and the women are conditioned to buy into our culture's neurotic ideas on the role of women. This country is far better than most other places on this planet but it's still bad enough. The truth is that the most dangerous place for a woman is her home.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why any woman would ever get married. Believe in yourself. It's like Katy Perry said recently. It's 2014. You don't need a dude if you want a family.

[randome]

66. Agree with the pointlessness of marriage.

I'm divorced but I'm not bitter. It's just that my eyes were opened to the pointlessness of "heeding society's call".

Doing what everyone else around you does isn't making much of a statement with your life.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[leftyladyfrommo]

68. I cannot believe the stuff that women put up with in marriages.

So many women just spend a huge part of their adult lives miserable, exhausted and beat down.

I swear I feel like I am dancing on a grave every time I hear that someone is getting married.

[randome]

78. I know what you mean and agree.

It sometimes seems like we are all lemmings following a script instead of thinking for ourselves. Tying yourself down to a single location and lover for the rest of your life? What's up with that?

Maybe people think it's worth it if they can have regular sex? It hardly ever works out that way.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[randome]

89. Another instant tombstone. Another intellectual dullard.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[leftyladyfrommo]

204. Obviously some women make it work.

But what I see are so many women who are just emotionally worn out from all the family drama. All their resources just get soaked up trying to deal with the typical American family household.

In many instances marriage is just a huge weight around women's necks. Our culture just expects that women grow up, get married and have kids. It hasn't really changed since the beginning of time.

We need to get the idea that women have lots of choices. And you aren't some kind of freak if you decide to take a different path.

[steve2470]

46. DU needs to update its TOS. We're behind the times, imho nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

65. agree. +1

[orpupilofnature57]

53. +1000 !!!!

[malthaussen]

109. you should drop the clause "on the Internet."

It's just a microcosm of society, after all.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

114. someone said not long ago, that internet IS real life. i always separate the two. but...

the point made. it is very much a part of the real world. and yes, you are correct.

[99Forever]

112. So basically...

... you want censorship to suit your tastes and opinion.

Got it.

Funny, seems to me the people who founded this Nation saw it differently.

[seabeyond]

115. the board is now open to repugs, policies, ideas and arguments? i missed the bulletin. nt

[99Forever]

117. Was I speaking to you? n/t

[seabeyond]

118. message board. doesnt matter. still didnt answer the question. open to repugs?

[99Forever]

121. I don't do demands from you or anyone else.

[seabeyond]

125. lol. nor acknowledge the obvious. and truth. no repugs. we censor, already. ooops.

[kcr]

156. You mean, you missed the rule about not responding to 99forever?

This is 99forever's internet. They must only be responded when posted to.

[99Forever]

157. Aren't you special?

Ridiculous snark from another person I neither know nor want to know.

[kcr]

159. This is my lucky day!

A response from the 99Forever. I don't know what I did to deserve it. I do feel special.

[99Forever]

160. Yes it is.

Good for you. Bless your heart.

[seabeyond]

158. ya. him and thor. lol.

[treestar]

196. I wonder that they are so blind they don't see the misogyny

It's so clear. They are not talking to YOU, and therefore YOU do not have a say. They totally believe in their male supremacy. They don't want you talking back to them and some enforceable rule says you should not, and they should have that privilege.

[treestar]

195. Textbook misogyny

the old, "I'm not talking to YOU" gambit.

and on a public message board, it's hilarious!

You are trying to minimize another person's opinion. Your ego says you decide who gets to respond to you.

[malthaussen]

116. No, I wouldn't say "censorship."

I think he wants DU to be more cognizant of misogynistic posts (and posting patterns), and would wish for the owners of the site to pay as much diligence to misogyny as they do to other forms of bigotry.

"Self-censorship," now, he might get behind that, although I shouldn't speak for him. But then, "self-censorship" by another name is "common courtesy," which I have noted is occasionally lacking in some posts here, as elsewhere, to say nothing of the rest of the world.

-- Mal

[99Forever]

120. The OP specifically referred to the Internet, as a whole.

Private sites on the net are certainly well within their rights to set any standards they choose.

What seems to be being glossed over in this, is that one of the inherent costs of actual free speech, is that sometimes other people are going to use theirs to say things that offend you. (The generic you, not the personal.) All of the self-righteous blah, blah, blah trying to "justify" censorship, doesn't change the simple fact that it is still the same old thing, censorship.

I oppose censorship. Period. It's just that simple.

[malthaussen]

122. Well, the laws of libel and slander disagree with your position.

In fact, of course, society does impose limits on freedom of speech, both in law and in custom, and our Constitutional guarantee does apply only to governmental restrictions.

As it happens, for my own self, I find that words are not a source of offense, but rather tell me more about the individual who uses them. But I wouldn't think to insist that my thick skin be taken as a standard for all persons, many of whom have much greater reason than I to be frightened by certain words, or people who use them.

If a person were to say to you, "you are hurting me," would you persist in the activity? Given the premise that the issue is one substantively of indifference to you?

-- Mal

[99Forever]

126. I have little interest in strawman arguments.

There is no Constitutional right to not be offended. I certainly don't go out of my way to offend, but should my honest opinion offend someone, then that's their issue to deal with, not mine.

The "societal limits" on speech, mostly are in place for public safety, not to "protect" us from having our sensibilities hurt. All censors claim they are "only trying to improve society," each and every one of them. And each and every one of them, is in reality, trying impose their OWN personal set of "morals and values" on everyone. No thanks.

[malthaussen]

127. Since no suggestion was made that there is such a Constitutional right...

... your statement about strawmen might seem to be disingenuous.

So, are customary and statutory limits on "hate speech" designed to ensure public safety, coddle the crybabies, or are they an offense to good government? Or some other, I have no wish to program your response.

-- Mal

[99Forever]

128. Which "statutory limits on hate speech" are you referring to?

Specifically.

[malthaussen]

129. With the caveat that there are none such in the US...

... except, depending on how you look at it, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, I was thinking of things like the South African Constitution, and laws in several EU states which seek to limit

"communication which is hateful, threatening, abusive, or insulting and which targets a person on account of skin colour, race, disability, nationality (including citizenship), ethnic or national origin, religion, or sexual orientation." (cribbed from Wikipedia) (and interesting in that it does not specify gender, which is of course what this thread is about)

Examples could be multiplied (the EU is full of such laws), but it is past my bedtime. Still, it does appear that such laws are designed to protect citizens from offensive speech.

-- Mal

[99Forever]

130. I don't live in South Africa or the EU.

As I said earlier, I don't fight strawmen.

Good night.

[chervilant]

132. I oppose misogyny.

Period. It's just that simple.

[99Forever]

148. Fine.

Did someone say you shouldn't? It certainly wasn't me.

[chervilant]

172. No?

I have read your posts herein above, and I've found them rather distasteful, and often condescending.

Furthermore, whenever I witness someone vociferously defending "freedom of speech," I wonder why that issue is so often conflated with feminist efforts to address patriarchy, rape culture, and misogyny. Is it important to you, and those like you, to be able to call women derogatory names? What precisely makes 'freedom of speech' the go-to rebuttal?

BTW, when I read your posts, I was reminded of this, and I wondered if you had seen it. (Sometimes witty repartee is neither.)

[99Forever]

173. Have fun whipping those strawmen.

I'm not playing your game.

[chervilant]

181. Game?

That's alright 99, I'd rather not continue this discussion, either.

Toodles.

[99Forever]

185. Yes game.

You came after me, not the other way around.

Toodles.

[chervilant]

189. Oh, dear...

The infamous "I know you are, but what am I?!" rebuttal!

"You came after me..." Wow. That's surreal...

[99Forever]

192. Truth hurt?

Oh well.

[chervilant]

193. Truth?

Your reality is your oyster, 99. And, I don't want to play in your sandbox.

I find your posts too sophomoric to warrant an addition to my IL. But, please, note that I concede that YOU WIN!!! You are the bomb!!! You are the most erudite person on DU!!!

Good-bye, 99. Let it rest. (You win, remember?)

[99Forever]

194. ...

[BainsBane]

145. Do you also oppose equality and human rights?

Is there some reason you feel half of the human race needs to be treated badly for you to feel free?
How about social consciousness, social justice? Do you think those important at all? If so, there is no reason to use misogynist speech or to treat women as inferior.

[99Forever]

147. As I have said repeatedly:

I do not fight strawmen.

[gollygee]

162. I didn't read anything in the OP about wanting to censor the entire internet

The OP commented that it's shameful that it is so common on the internet as a whole, but only asked the admin of this site to do something about it on this privately owned site. That isn't a request to censor the internet.

[99Forever]

164. You see what you see...

.. I see it differently. I refuse to be "ashamed" of things I neither participate in or have any control over. I also won't be made to think that censorship, by any other name, isn't what it is.

[gollygee]

182. Who asked you to be ashamed?

the OP is ashamed, according to the OP.

And censorship has a definition. One privately owned web site having rules against some speech (which already exists here) doesn't meet it.

[99Forever]

184. Hello?

"It's shameful"

[gollygee]

187. Does that sound like a command to feel ashamed to you?

That's a statement of her opinion. Not, "You should be ashamed . . . "

[99Forever]

188. I won't waste my time with silly semantics drivel.

Have a nice day.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

186. Some of us may be taking into consideration things that the OP has stated in the past....

....that basically spell out they are fine with advocating censorship of things they find personally distasteful. I believe they have stated that being against the banning of materials that could be considered pornography on free speech grounds is the "libertarian position", and not the "progressive or liberal" position. I've tried to pin this person down on what exactly that means, but they usually start backpedaling and go silent as they've show too much of their slip and gone against the collective group think mantra of "We don't want to ban, just educate".

It's why I take anything this person says with a grain of salt, as their definition of what is misogyny may have some pretty broad bounds, basically coming down to "If you don't agree with me, I'm going to label you and then advocate you be TOS'd."

[treestar]

197. Everyone opposes censorship

But the internet allows for specialised boards. This is why racists are shown the door on DU. They have perfect freedom to continue their bullshit elsewhere. So it's not censorship.

Misogynists do not belong on DU. They can always go elsewhere. They aren't being censored. This board is for Democrats and liberals, and as such, does not include misogynists.

[alphafemale]

165. They are all for freedom of speech so long as they get to decide what you can say. nt

[99Forever]

167. Exactly.

"Feel free to think exactly as we tell you to.

"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated into the collective."

[Cal Carpenter]

190. Not shameful and embarrasing, that's too polite a way to put it

It is INJUSTICE.

As with real life misogyny.

(And racism, for that matter).

It isn't merely 'unacceptable behavior' in some rhetorical sense. That sounds like you are talking to a child who tore pages out of a book.

It has real world consequences and corollaries. Patterns that persist for generations. That are so embedded in our culture that they are invisible to some people, and most importantly, unrecognized and unaccountable in the system.

No offense to those who feel ashamed or embarrassed about it, or who to choose to verbalize it in that rhetorical way, but in a sense that's a sign of privilege. It is far more than an emotional or moral reaction. It is ruining people's lives.

This is why intellectually honest conversation needs to happen about it, so thank you for bringing it up. And I fully agree with you in asking the admins to take a good hard look at this and how this site can and should deal with it.

It is hella refreshing to see this discussion happening in more places. I hope it does spark real honest good faith conversation about it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

203. Excellent post. Thank you. N/t