General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFace it, DU: Manny *loves* Putin.
At the risk (well, certainty) of being labeled a Putin lover/defender and so forth, there are a couple of things that I'd like to point out regarding the horrible downing of MH17 and the deaths of so many.
First off, this man:
the Director of National Intelligence, flagrantly and admittedly lied even to Congress and still has his job. Clearly, our government has no big concerns about lying to Americans. So why would we believe anything at all that they tell us? It might be true, it might be a lie, but mostly, it will be what suits their own goals, not ours.
Sadly, it's hard to know who to believe here. In situations like this, I tend to turn to the foreign press to see what they're saying, particularly those sources that tend to be truthful and tend not to be US lapdogs. I took a look at Deutsche Welle, which I've found to be fair and level-headed, and it seems that things are not so clear with regard to who downed MH17:
From:
The plane was apparently hit by a surface-to-air missile. The separatists have denied that they are able to hit an aircraft flying at 10,000 meters (33,000 feet).
Aviation expert Heinrich Großbongardt told DW that rebel and guerilla organizations never before had access to such type of weapons. They often had shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles of rather small caliber, but those could only reach an altitude of up to 4,000 meters, he told DW.
Other weapons systems are required to fire 10,000 meters into the sky. If it is proven that rebels downed the plane, one had to thoroughly check how they could get their hands on such a weapon, he added. The pro-Russian separatists had previously said they had obtained a mobile Russian anti-aircraft defense system Buk last week.
That, however, is a very sophisticated system and it's questionable whether they were able to learn how to operate Buk in such a short time. There are also reports that the Ukrainian military also has such weapons; it has denied firing any missiles.
This may be BS, it may be accurate... but it is in a legitimate news source that seems to no longer be in bed with the US government.
The bottom line is that I'm suggesting that we all wait a little while before forming a judgment here. Things may become quite clear in the coming days - or, like the Syrian gas attacks, they may become more uncertain.
(And no, this doesn't mean I approve of Putin. I don't. With gusto.)
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)
Post removed
leftstreet
(36,076 posts)Seriously?
conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Stays on THIS side of the line?
H2O Man
(73,308 posts)Response to H2O Man (Reply #30)
PowerToThePeople This message was self-deleted by its author.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)11 Bravo
(23,922 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)supporters also for daring to WANT FACTS and for suspecting that we have war mongers in this country, mostly on the Right, see McCain and Fox these days eg, of whom we need to be very, very careful. They will ANY excuse to start another war, we said, and we were called many things, 'Traitors', 'Terror Supporters', 'Saddam Lovers'. But that was coming from the Right.
It is shameful to see these same, very familiar, epithets and phrases aimed once again Liberals, only this time on DU.
'Useful idiots', I remember it well. Thanks for the bad memories. And we were right, Liberals, but not good being right when the powers that control these things, set out to silence people who dare to not go along for the ride.
Ten years from now, liberals will be proven right again. Which is why Liberals are always the targets of these propaganda tactics.
Perhaps you explain why you consider liberals to be 'useful idiots' rather than using old Iraq War supporters talking points, this is a Democratic Forum where many of us remember these talking points well.
malaise
(267,797 posts)I am not now and never have been one of the gullible.
I have never swallowed the 'party' line from any side.
I think therefore I am. There are no saints - of that I'm sure.
Truth will out but I am not swallowing the official kool-aid.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I've switched to a Pol Pot theme for my bedroom, so Putin has to go. Amazon is delivering my S-21 Prison lightswitch plate today--I can hardly wait! Anyway, let me know about the poster. $15 firm.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I still have mine, but would like to replace it with 'I love Pootie' signs, buttons etc which should be very valuable about ten years from now.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)I want it. More than I should
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Gotta say, though....referring to oneself in the third-person is kinda strange.
See: Bob Dole
http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=27322
Peacetrain
(22,836 posts)But this is ridiculous.. trying to tar the US in this disaster??.. sorry but you are off the deep end on this one
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)1monster
(11,012 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)And I like my men furry!
demwing
(16,916 posts)so what gives?
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)enough for its own OP?
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Six were OPs, so I guess the answer to your question is yes.
MineralMan
(146,190 posts)You're the one I turn to for facts about international incidents. That's for sure. You bet.
Insincerity-way,
MineralManny
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Not.
Regards,
How-about-reading-the-thing-before-posting Manny
Octafish
(55,745 posts)BTW: While most won't judge until all the facts are in, there's always the group that wants to get ahead of the crowd and slam the messenger first thing. It makes DU a lovely.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Are you implying that there is a possibility the shooting was a false flag operation?
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)The only thing that there seems to be consensus on is that a missile brought down the plane.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I would add "and politics" to that aphorism.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)By that I mean, if truth is the first death...then the death of truth is the last real fact.
Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)
Post removed
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)perhaps you can link to them?
Link, or slink.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Manny - making a funny about the school that served fried chicken and watermelon for black history month by making it about 'gelfite'. Anyone can go back to February 2014 and see the threads. Go back in G.D. or the African American group. There were several threads about it by several different posters. We aren't "new".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024472335
MrScorpio lays down some discipline here. Now this is a good read.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024468868
Just two for reference in case you were wondering Whisp. About your sanity that is. Because you aren't crazy. You saw it with your own two eyes.
Me - it's got nothing to do with that thread. I just generally distrust anyone that was born in 1957 or earlier and that person (this is an And - because we have some old liberal warriors here at DU that I bow down to) did not vote for Jimmy Carter twice. Because they were of age to vote for him twice. If you were born in 1960/1961 and did not vote for him once - then same level of distrust is there.
That's my personal thing though - and it's how I know who to trust in the older generations. That's how I've experienced America.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)By *your* logic.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Let me know when you win an Oscar. Okey dokey?
You weren't funny.
We connect off the site you know - and we make you 'own it' - whether you ever choose to do so or not.
We can't be made to think that you are empathetic to our experiences in America.
So just accept that there are people who saw it - took the venom - and we don't have to respect you. You don't have to respect us. TOS says to be polite and watch our words - no personal attacks.
You will be hard pressed to find where I've attacked you with this response. I was polite. Watched my words. But I don't lie to myself and don't lie to others. I'm not going to do that. Sorry.
Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #44)
Post removed
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)I wasn't trying to be Socrates.
I was going more for a Tina Fey script - And with that . . .
"Whatever, Im getting cheese fries. - Regina
MineralMan
(146,190 posts)In Jewish homes, the word was "regarded as so vulgar as to be taboo."[5] Lenny Bruce, a Jewish standup comedian, wrote that the use of the word during his performances in 1962 led to his arrest on the West Coast "by a Yiddish undercover agent who had been placed in the club several nights running to determine if [his] use of Yiddish terms was a cover for profanity."[6]
Etymology[edit]
The German word Schmuck means "jewelry, adornments";[7] In German the pejorative "schmuck" would be Schmock, closer to the original Yiddish word. The transition of the word from meaning "jewel" to meaning "penis" is related to the description of a man's genitals as "the family jewels."[8]
The Online Etymology Dictionary derives it from Eastern Yiddish shmok, literally "penis," from Old Polish smok, "grass snake, dragon,"[9] but Leo Rosten cites Dr. Shlomo Noble of the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research as saying that shmok derives from shmuck and not the other way around.
However, according to the lexicographer Michael Wex, the author of How to Be a Mentsh (And Not a Shmuck), the Yiddish and German "schmucks" are completely unrelated. "Basically, the Yiddish word comes out of baby talk," Wex said. "A little boys penis is a shtekl, a 'little stick.' Shtekl became shmeckle, in a kind of baby-rhyming thing, and shmeckle became shmuck. Shmeckle is prepubescent and not a dirty word, but shmuck, the non-diminutive, became obscene."[10]
You're not the only one who understands Yiddish personal insults, you know.
Name-calling doesn't become you...
ETA again: MannyGoldstein has deleted his insult from the post. That's good.
ETA: A jury hid that post, anyhow. Good for that jury.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)He must not realize that I went to Passover celebrations at mother's paternal grandmother's house as a kid.
Honestly - I don't care. I'm too Regina George for that.
Just be careful. You don't want to get a hide.
MineralMan
(146,190 posts)was in his thread. Just above, Manny wrote @#$% You! to another poster. That one was alerted on, but not hidden, as well. It's still there, last time I looked, too.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)27. @#$% you.
I didn't understand what all of the exclamation points meant.
MineralMan
(146,190 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)What the hell does that mean?
Squads passing 'round dossiers on members they don't like?
WTF??
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)It's not like we have a Mean Girls slam book floating around!
grasswire
(50,130 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Autumn
(44,748 posts)a site started by some maverickey person.
Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #44)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Coventina
(26,844 posts)"The Producers" is about trying to make something intentionally offensive.
"Fried Chicken and Watermelon" is clueless (and sometimes not so clueless) acceptance of ugly stereotyping.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)A better analogy would have been Chappelle's black white supremacist 'sketch'.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I remember that day very clearly.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)I didn't attack him on this sub thread - did I? I checked to make sure I didn't break TOS.
But I'm not a person of the lie.
I don't tell lies.
And I'm not going to lie to myself. I'd rather be booted from the site than be forced to lick his heels.
I'm NOT DOING IT!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Why not try for the hat trick of nonsense?
MineralMan
(146,190 posts)I remember it, too.
Sadly, Whisp's post was hidden, which exposes his/her transparency and will keep him/her from posting for some time to come. I'm very sorry to see that, since the information was accurate.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)I should have DU mailed the links to Whisp so he could update his post with that information. Whisp didn't insult or break TOS there - Whisp was just telling the truth.
I should have alerted on the 'schmuck' comment but I don't alert on insults to me. I have big girl cheekies on - and can handle insults without being a tattle tale or breaking TOS.
MineralMan
(146,190 posts)was the second alert. It was hidden 4-3 by the first jury. Insulting language is insulting language, even if it's not in English. Lots of speakers of other languages on DU, there are.
RKP5637
(67,030 posts)MineralMan
(146,190 posts)comes to mind, somehow. But it's not always true, apparently. Sometimes, at least.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Spazito
(49,741 posts)MineralMan
(146,190 posts)JI7
(89,172 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)have their head in the sand.
Things known without relying on the US government:
1) the only military planes flying in the area belong to Ukraine
2) as a result of (1) the only people shooting at planes in the area are the rebels
3) as a result of (2) the only people who have shot down planes in the area are the rebels
4) the rebels have shot down several planes in the past week
5) the head of the rebels bragged about shooting down a plane within minutes of this plane being shot down
6) there are many social media--and Russian-friendly media reports--showing that the rebels had the equipment necessary to do this.
Also, it's been demonstrated that the Syrian government did use the poison gas, the Putin-humpers protestations to the contrary
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)DW is the German equivalent of the BBC.
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)Into the incident has just begun.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)What's wrong with YOU wasting time asking questions?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that every point of evidence made public points towards the rebels, including the rebels own statements:
Also, the fact that the rebels are the only ones shooting at planes in the area, and the fact that the rebels have shot down multiple planes in that area in the past week.
If there is the tiniest piece of evidence or argument that someone else did it, that evidence has yet to appear
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Not proof, but evidence.
Nothing's been proved yet, except to you, of course.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)do you have any reason to believe it was anyone but the Russian side (some combination of separatists inside Ukraine and Russian state)?
Note:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine
Yeah, totally not clear what's going on.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)but refuse to connect them.
Yeah, TOTAL mystery.
Head not in sand-way geek tragedy
brooklynite
(93,840 posts)maddezmom
(135,060 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Either demonstrate that my OP is BS, link to a post I've made that claims "the correspondents quitting RT over their coverage are the secret CIA agents", or retract your post.
Making unfounded accusations like that is a low sort of thing.
MineralMan
(146,190 posts)A jury left it, though. I'll bet if I wrote the same thing, though, that it would be hidden. What do you think?
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)I think if you wrote that in a post you would get a hide.
brooklynite
(93,840 posts)MineralMan
(146,190 posts)XRubicon
(2,212 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)MineralMan
(146,190 posts)It survived an alert, too. Go figure.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)in all this - for you to agree on - and barely a discouraging or negative word about Pooty Putz.
Let's see how that rolls out.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)pnwmom
(108,925 posts)Let's make this all about the US.
renegade000
(2,301 posts)Instead of the odious, "America is special, we can do no wrong, and are the source of all good in the world," traditional flavor of exceptionalism, it's the, perhaps less odious and dangerous, but still equally bizarre and counterproductive, "America is special, we can do no right, and are the source of all evil in the world." I mean heaven forbid there are shitty, illiberal, governments and institutions out there who we aren't responsible for that deserve some criticism in addition to the ones we've had hands in.
TheKentuckian
(24,934 posts)Since WWII if there is a mess the odds are we have been heavily involved and often the primary driver of a lot of bad news and if not us then our corporations and quasi governmental agencies stirring the muck.
Now, it isn't ALWAYS us because other forces are also at work in the world and some things happen beyond anyone's plan but you won't go broke betting on us being at least waist deep no matter how vigorous the the protest otherwise, though often it may take years and decades for the truth comes out.
I'd say it is fair to withhold benefit of the doubt at virtually all times at this point, the influence and capture by powerful interests with their own agenda and the right wing and rogue nature of the security and surveillance apparatus absolutely dictates it. That does not infer any other regime or sources be trusted either but rather to to view all data with a critical eye and assuming all the facts have not been presented, unraveling every inconsistency and always following the money.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)But no surprise there.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)"We will keep coming back tomorrow and the next day and the next day," said spokesman Michael Bociurkiw. "Tomorrow will be a crunch day. There are a lot of experts from the Netherlands and Malaysia gathering in Kiev as well as relatives. The bodies are starting to bloat and decay. An expert team is clearly needed. There is a lot to be done in a short amount of time."
It's painfully obvious at this point.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)15:29:
Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784
I wonder if they will edit them?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The scumbag Russian-backed terrorists did.
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)I am not getting your post.
"So this tragedy is about you?"
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)That appears to be how they obtained them. As far as technical operational know-how, who knows? Its possible Russia sent personell there to operate the SAMs, or to instruct the rebels in their use. Its also possible that former Soviet Army Ukranians in the rebel forces have technical knowledge of the weapon from their time in the Soviet military. We don't know.
It is unlikely that the BUK SAMs were recent rebel acquisitions directly from Russia. It would be far too easy to track their movements and trace them back to Russia. Weapons aid from Russia is most likely light weapons... AKs, grenades, light machine guns, shoulder-fired missiles... they would be harder to track and trace back to Russia.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)countingbluecars
(4,766 posts)spill over to a tragedy like this you lose credibility IMO.
MineralMan
(146,190 posts)He had a post hidden in this thread.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)Really? We should distrust anything and everything our own government says, no matter the details, context, or amount of supporting data?
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Shame on you.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Someone open a window already!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Iraq debacle? Did you EVER think you see it used against liberals on DU? DU was where Liberals came to get away from that garbage and now, once again, Liberals are the targets of these exact same idiotic tactics.
It does help however to figure things out which is always a good thing, imo.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)on DU2, that nothing was going to be out of bounds. However this was an attempt at a fart joke. Nobody else has a name like Pootin.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)post here. Lol, a 'fart joke', I'm slow I guess.
Rex
(65,616 posts)When we couldn't talk about 9/11 anymore and the usual suspects forgot all about the 2000 selection and thought the Iraq war might just be a good idea in 2003.
Sadly some of them are still here...I think they still are Reagan Democrats that are just yanking our chain, because they are untouchable.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)You don't have to use them as a source. And you shouldn't use them as an excuse to pretend we don't know what happened.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)and I have a feeling that Obama feels the same way. But the warmongers, Dick Cheney eg, are working hard to push him and he needs US to back him up. It is truly important right now to help him fight off the Cheneys and the rest of the warmongers by overwhelmingly demonstrating that the people do not want the US involved in a war that will make Iraq look like a walk in the park.
Corruption Inc
(1,568 posts)I wonder for how long?
randome
(34,845 posts)Devoid of information or enlightenment. Designed to start an argument. Waste.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
trumad
(41,692 posts)Love the disclaimer at the end---like that's going to work.
FSogol
(45,355 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
FSogol
(45,355 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]