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Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:02 PM

 

Face it, DU: Manny *loves* Putin.

At the risk (well, certainty) of being labeled a Putin lover/defender and so forth, there are a couple of things that I'd like to point out regarding the horrible downing of MH17 and the deaths of so many.

First off, this man:



the Director of National Intelligence, flagrantly and admittedly lied even to Congress and still has his job. Clearly, our government has no big concerns about lying to Americans. So why would we believe anything at all that they tell us? It might be true, it might be a lie, but mostly, it will be what suits their own goals, not ours.

Sadly, it's hard to know who to believe here. In situations like this, I tend to turn to the foreign press to see what they're saying, particularly those sources that tend to be truthful and tend not to be US lapdogs. I took a look at Deutsche Welle, which I've found to be fair and level-headed, and it seems that things are not so clear with regard to who downed MH17:

From:
Leads point to missile downing MH17

The plane was apparently hit by a surface-to-air missile. The separatists have denied that they are able to hit an aircraft flying at 10,000 meters (33,000 feet).

Aviation expert Heinrich Großbongardt told DW that rebel and guerilla organizations never before had access to such type of weapons. They often had shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles of rather small caliber, but those could only reach an altitude of up to 4,000 meters, he told DW.

Other weapons systems are required to fire 10,000 meters into the sky. If it is proven that rebels downed the plane, one had to thoroughly check how they could get their hands on such a weapon, he added. The pro-Russian separatists had previously said they had obtained a mobile Russian anti-aircraft defense system Buk last week.

That, however, is a very sophisticated system and it's questionable whether they were able to learn how to operate Buk in such a short time. There are also reports that the Ukrainian military also has such weapons; it has denied firing any missiles.

This may be BS, it may be accurate... but it is in a legitimate news source that seems to no longer be in bed with the US government.

The bottom line is that I'm suggesting that we all wait a little while before forming a judgment here. Things may become quite clear in the coming days - or, like the Syrian gas attacks, they may become more uncertain.

(And no, this doesn't mean I approve of Putin. I don't. With gusto.)

122 replies, 14618 views

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Arrow 122 replies Author Time Post
Reply Face it, DU: Manny *loves* Putin. (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 OP
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #1
Post removed Jul 2014 #2
leftstreet Jul 2014 #3
conservaphobe Jul 2014 #5
tkmorris Jul 2014 #28
H2O Man Jul 2014 #30
PowerToThePeople Jul 2014 #52
tkmorris Jul 2014 #65
11 Bravo Jul 2014 #119
sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #34
malaise Jul 2014 #93
DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2014 #4
sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #36
F4lconF16 Jul 2014 #87
Bobbie Jo Jul 2014 #6
Peacetrain Jul 2014 #7
PowerToThePeople Jul 2014 #8
1monster Jul 2014 #86
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #98
demwing Jul 2014 #113
sufrommich Jul 2014 #9
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #12
MineralMan Jul 2014 #10
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #13
Octafish Jul 2014 #11
L0oniX Jul 2014 #14
grasswire Jul 2014 #15
betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #17
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #22
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #16
Chan790 Jul 2014 #70
Post removed Jul 2014 #18
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #19
Whisp Jul 2014 #26
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #35
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #37
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #44
Post removed Jul 2014 #48
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #53
MineralMan Jul 2014 #60
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #66
MineralMan Jul 2014 #69
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #73
MineralMan Jul 2014 #74
grasswire Jul 2014 #89
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #94
grasswire Jul 2014 #95
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #96
Autumn Oct 2014 #121
1000words Dec 2014 #122
Coventina Jul 2014 #46
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #50
Whisp Jul 2014 #38
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #45
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #43
MineralMan Jul 2014 #67
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #71
MineralMan Jul 2014 #72
RKP5637 Jul 2014 #77
MineralMan Jul 2014 #78
LineReply .
redqueen Jul 2014 #20
SidDithers Jul 2014 #31
Spazito Jul 2014 #41
MineralMan Jul 2014 #55
JI7 Jul 2014 #61
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #21
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #24
maddezmom Jul 2014 #32
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #33
sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #39
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #47
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #49
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #54
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #40
brooklynite Jul 2014 #23
maddezmom Jul 2014 #25
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #27
MineralMan Jul 2014 #76
JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #81
brooklynite Jul 2014 #104
MineralMan Jul 2014 #109
XRubicon Jul 2014 #117
sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #42
MineralMan Jul 2014 #58
Whisp Jul 2014 #29
Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #112
pnwmom Jul 2014 #51
renegade000 Jul 2014 #62
TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #120
LordGlenconner Jul 2014 #56
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #57
ozone_man Jul 2014 #88
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #90
itsrobert Jul 2014 #59
JI7 Jul 2014 #63
SidDithers Jul 2014 #68
HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #64
DanTex Jul 2014 #75
JI7 Jul 2014 #92
countingbluecars Jul 2014 #79
MineralMan Jul 2014 #80
Skidmore Jul 2014 #82
riqster Jul 2014 #83
Fearless Jul 2014 #84
Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #85
bemildred Jul 2014 #91
Rex Jul 2014 #97
sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #100
betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #101
sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #103
Rex Jul 2014 #105
sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #106
Rex Jul 2014 #107
joshcryer Jul 2014 #99
sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #102
Corruption Inc Jul 2014 #108
randome Jul 2014 #110
trumad Jul 2014 #111
FSogol Jul 2014 #114
randome Jul 2014 #115
FSogol Jul 2014 #116
randome Jul 2014 #118

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:04 PM

1. Who said you love Putin? n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:12 PM

3. A 'useful idiot?'

Seriously?

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:17 PM

5. I had to mince words to respect this site's community standards. nt

 

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Response to conservaphobe (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:12 PM

28. You think calling Manny an idiot...

Stays on THIS side of the line?

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Response to tkmorris (Reply #28)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:14 PM

30. A pattern is forming ....

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #30)


Response to H2O Man (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:06 PM

65. Indeed it is

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Response to conservaphobe (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 08:32 PM

119. How's that working out for you?

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Response to Post removed (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:18 PM

34. Of course, we were all accused of being Saddam Lovers and Useful Idiots by Bush

supporters also for daring to WANT FACTS and for suspecting that we have war mongers in this country, mostly on the Right, see McCain and Fox these days eg, of whom we need to be very, very careful. They will ANY excuse to start another war, we said, and we were called many things, 'Traitors', 'Terror Supporters', 'Saddam Lovers'. But that was coming from the Right.

It is shameful to see these same, very familiar, epithets and phrases aimed once again Liberals, only this time on DU.

'Useful idiots', I remember it well. Thanks for the bad memories. And we were right, Liberals, but not good being right when the powers that control these things, set out to silence people who dare to not go along for the ride.

Ten years from now, liberals will be proven right again. Which is why Liberals are always the targets of these propaganda tactics.

Perhaps you explain why you consider liberals to be 'useful idiots' rather than using old Iraq War supporters talking points, this is a Democratic Forum where many of us remember these talking points well.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 05:30 PM

93. Well said

I am not now and never have been one of the gullible.
I have never swallowed the 'party' line from any side.
I think therefore I am. There are no saints - of that I'm sure.

Truth will out but I am not swallowing the official kool-aid.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:15 PM

4. I'll sell you my Putin-Riding-Bear velvet blacklight poster.

 

I've switched to a Pol Pot theme for my bedroom, so Putin has to go. Amazon is delivering my S-21 Prison lightswitch plate today--I can hardly wait! Anyway, let me know about the poster. $15 firm.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:21 PM

36. Did you sell your 'I love Saddam' memorabilia and if so, how much did you get for it?

I still have mine, but would like to replace it with 'I love Pootie' signs, buttons etc which should be very valuable about ten years from now.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:15 PM

87. ...if you actually have one

I want it. More than I should

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:24 PM

6. I'll alert the media.

Gotta say, though....referring to oneself in the third-person is kinda strange.

See: Bob Dole

http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=27322

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:25 PM

7. I don't even know what to say

But this is ridiculous.. trying to tar the US in this disaster??.. sorry but you are off the deep end on this one

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:26 PM

8. fap fap fap

 



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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:03 PM

86. Ludamussy! If that were my chest, I'd COVER IT UP!!!

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Response to 1monster (Reply #86)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:04 PM

98. +1000

And I like my men furry!

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Response to 1monster (Reply #86)

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 07:09 PM

113. whyzat? Not a fatty or a flabby

 

so what gives?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:27 PM

9. Do you ever have a thought that isn't important

enough for its own OP?

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:54 PM

12. Looking at my last 100 posts, ...

 

Six were OPs, so I guess the answer to your question is yes.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:30 PM

10. OK, Manny. Whatever you say.

You're the one I turn to for facts about international incidents. That's for sure. You bet.

Insincerity-way,

MineralManny

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:55 PM

13. Which is *exactly* what I suggested that you do in the OP

 

Not.

Regards,

How-about-reading-the-thing-before-posting Manny

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:31 PM

11. Well said.

BTW: While most won't judge until all the facts are in, there's always the group that wants to get ahead of the crowd and slam the messenger first thing. It makes DU a lovely.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:57 PM

14. Thanks Obama.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:01 PM

15. Manny, I'm not clear on what you are saying.

Are you implying that there is a possibility the shooting was a false flag operation?

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Response to grasswire (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:03 PM

17. Or friendly fire. n/t

 

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Response to grasswire (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:08 PM

22. No.

 

The only thing that there seems to be consensus on is that a missile brought down the plane.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:03 PM

16. In war, truth is the first casualty. Aeschylus

 

I would add "and politics" to that aphorism.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:18 PM

70. "After the first death, there is no other." -Dylan Thomas

 

By that I mean, if truth is the first death...then the death of truth is the last real fact.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:05 PM

19. Since I have zero recollection of making them,

 

perhaps you can link to them?

Link, or slink.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #19)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:11 PM

26. lol

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #26)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:20 PM

35. Is this what you are talking about?

Manny - making a funny about the school that served fried chicken and watermelon for black history month by making it about 'gelfite'. Anyone can go back to February 2014 and see the threads. Go back in G.D. or the African American group. There were several threads about it by several different posters. We aren't "new".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024472335



MrScorpio lays down some discipline here. Now this is a good read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024468868



Just two for reference in case you were wondering Whisp. About your sanity that is. Because you aren't crazy. You saw it with your own two eyes.

Me - it's got nothing to do with that thread. I just generally distrust anyone that was born in 1957 or earlier and that person (this is an And - because we have some old liberal warriors here at DU that I bow down to) did not vote for Jimmy Carter twice. Because they were of age to vote for him twice. If you were born in 1960/1961 and did not vote for him once - then same level of distrust is there.

That's my personal thing though - and it's how I know who to trust in the older generations. That's how I've experienced America.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:24 PM

37. And Mel Brooks thinks gassing Jews is a riot!

 



By *your* logic.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:30 PM

44. You are no Mel Brooks Manny

Let me know when you win an Oscar. Okey dokey?

You weren't funny.

We connect off the site you know - and we make you 'own it' - whether you ever choose to do so or not.

We can't be made to think that you are empathetic to our experiences in America.

So just accept that there are people who saw it - took the venom - and we don't have to respect you. You don't have to respect us. TOS says to be polite and watch our words - no personal attacks.

You will be hard pressed to find where I've attacked you with this response. I was polite. Watched my words. But I don't lie to myself and don't lie to others. I'm not going to do that. Sorry.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #44)


Response to Post removed (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:39 PM

53. Socrates?

I wasn't trying to be Socrates.

I was going more for a Tina Fey script - And with that . . .



"Whatever, I’m getting cheese fries.” - Regina

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Response to Post removed (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:53 PM

60. Schmuck? Again with the insults, Manny?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_(pejorative)

Schmuck or shmuck in American English is a pejorative meaning one who is stupid or foolish; or an obnoxious, contemptible or detestable person. The word entered English from Yiddish (‏שמאָק, shmok), where it has similar pejorative meanings, but its original meaning in Yiddish is penis.[1][2] Because of its vulgarity,[3] the word is euphemized as schmoe, which was the source of Al Capp's cartoon strip creature the shmoo.[4] Variants include schmo and shmo.

In Jewish homes, the word was "regarded as so vulgar as to be taboo."[5] Lenny Bruce, a Jewish standup comedian, wrote that the use of the word during his performances in 1962 led to his arrest on the West Coast "by a Yiddish undercover agent who had been placed in the club several nights running to determine if [his] use of Yiddish terms was a cover for profanity."[6]

Etymology[edit]
The German word Schmuck means "jewelry, adornments";[7] In German the pejorative "schmuck" would be Schmock, closer to the original Yiddish word. The transition of the word from meaning "jewel" to meaning "penis" is related to the description of a man's genitals as "the family jewels."[8]

The Online Etymology Dictionary derives it from Eastern Yiddish shmok, literally "penis," from Old Polish smok, "grass snake, dragon,"[9] but Leo Rosten cites Dr. Shlomo Noble of the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research as saying that shmok derives from shmuck and not the other way around.

However, according to the lexicographer Michael Wex, the author of How to Be a Mentsh (And Not a Shmuck), the Yiddish and German "schmucks" are completely unrelated. "Basically, the Yiddish word comes out of baby talk," Wex said. "A little boy’s penis is a shtekl, a 'little stick.' Shtekl became shmeckle, in a kind of baby-rhyming thing, and shmeckle became shmuck. Shmeckle is prepubescent and not a dirty word, but shmuck, the non-diminutive, became obscene."[10]

You're not the only one who understands Yiddish personal insults, you know.

Name-calling doesn't become you...

ETA again: MannyGoldstein has deleted his insult from the post. That's good.
ETA: A jury hid that post, anyhow. Good for that jury.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #60)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:13 PM

66. He deleted it out



He must not realize that I went to Passover celebrations at mother's paternal grandmother's house as a kid.

Honestly - I don't care. I'm too Regina George for that.


Just be careful. You don't want to get a hide.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #66)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:15 PM

69. I won't get a hide for pointing out that an insult

was in his thread. Just above, Manny wrote @#$% You! to another poster. That one was alerted on, but not hidden, as well. It's still there, last time I looked, too.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #69)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:25 PM

73. Ahh I just read it and understood it




27. @#$% you.


I didn't understand what all of the exclamation points meant.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #73)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:27 PM

74. A jury left it 4-3.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:40 PM

89. "we connect off the site and we make you own it"

What the hell does that mean?

Squads passing 'round dossiers on members they don't like?

WTF??

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Response to grasswire (Reply #89)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:04 PM

94. No

Facebook friends and what not. We laugh and kvetch. Relax. Ohmmmmm.

It's not like we have a Mean Girls slam book floating around!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #94)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:12 PM

95. sure seems like it nt

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Response to grasswire (Reply #95)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:14 PM

96. Relax relax relax

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Response to grasswire (Reply #89)

Sat Oct 25, 2014, 07:13 PM

121. About the size of it. Five bucks says it's

a site started by some maverickey person.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #44)


Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:32 PM

46. Not the same at all.

"The Producers" is about trying to make something intentionally offensive.

"Fried Chicken and Watermelon" is clueless (and sometimes not so clueless) acceptance of ugly stereotyping.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #46)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:36 PM

50. I agree

A better analogy would have been Chappelle's black white supremacist 'sketch'.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:28 PM

38. Thanks, J. Yeh, I knew I wasn't imagining things.

 

I remember that day very clearly.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #38)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:32 PM

45. Well a lot of us did

I didn't attack him on this sub thread - did I? I checked to make sure I didn't break TOS.

But I'm not a person of the lie.

I don't tell lies.

And I'm not going to lie to myself. I'd rather be booted from the site than be forced to lick his heels.

I'm NOT DOING IT!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:30 PM

43. And your description of me is totally inaccurate.

 

Why not try for the hat trick of nonsense?

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:14 PM

67. Yes, I believe it was what he was talking about.

I remember it, too.

Sadly, Whisp's post was hidden, which exposes his/her transparency and will keep him/her from posting for some time to come. I'm very sorry to see that, since the information was accurate.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #67)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:21 PM

71. Me too

I should have DU mailed the links to Whisp so he could update his post with that information. Whisp didn't insult or break TOS there - Whisp was just telling the truth.

I should have alerted on the 'schmuck' comment but I don't alert on insults to me. I have big girl cheekies on - and can handle insults without being a tattle tale or breaking TOS.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #71)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:24 PM

72. The Schmuck post was hidden. I had alerted on it, but

was the second alert. It was hidden 4-3 by the first jury. Insulting language is insulting language, even if it's not in English. Lots of speakers of other languages on DU, there are.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:39 PM

77. K&R!!! n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #77)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:40 PM

78. A line from "Animal Farm"

comes to mind, somehow. But it's not always true, apparently. Sometimes, at least.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:07 PM

20. .

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Response to redqueen (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:14 PM

31. You win the thread...



Sid

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Response to redqueen (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:29 PM

41. Exactly! n/t

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Response to redqueen (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:41 PM

55. No, ME!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:58 PM

61. only thing that comes to mind with these

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:07 PM

21. it's perfectly clear who shot it down to anyone who doesn't

 

have their head in the sand.

Things known without relying on the US government:

1) the only military planes flying in the area belong to Ukraine
2) as a result of (1) the only people shooting at planes in the area are the rebels
3) as a result of (2) the only people who have shot down planes in the area are the rebels
4) the rebels have shot down several planes in the past week
5) the head of the rebels bragged about shooting down a plane within minutes of this plane being shot down
6) there are many social media--and Russian-friendly media reports--showing that the rebels had the equipment necessary to do this.

Also, it's been demonstrated that the Syrian government did use the poison gas, the Putin-humpers protestations to the contrary

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:09 PM

24. So is DW lying or stupid?

 

DW is the German equivalent of the BBC.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:15 PM

32. Perhaps they are neither and just don't have all the facts yet since the investigation

Into the incident has just begun.

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:16 PM

33. That's what *I* think, but Geek Tragedy knows better. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:28 PM

39. Geek knew right away who did it.

What's wrong with YOU wasting time asking questions?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:33 PM

47. one can gather from the report

 

that every point of evidence made public points towards the rebels, including the rebels own statements:

Rebel leader and "defense minister" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic Igor Strelkov posted on a popular social network that his fighters shot down a Ukrainian cargo aircraft - the pictures are identical with pictures from the crash site of the Malaysian plane. The post was later removed from the network.


Also, the fact that the rebels are the only ones shooting at planes in the area, and the fact that the rebels have shot down multiple planes in that area in the past week.

If there is the tiniest piece of evidence or argument that someone else did it, that evidence has yet to appear



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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #47)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:36 PM

49. There's evidence in the article that I linked to

 

Not proof, but evidence.

Nothing's been proved yet, except to you, of course.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:41 PM

54. " it seems that things are not so clear with regard to who downed MH17"

 

do you have any reason to believe it was anyone but the Russian side (some combination of separatists inside Ukraine and Russian state)?

Note:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine

Yeah, totally not clear what's going on.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:28 PM

40. being rather over-cautious, they give everyone all the dots

 

but refuse to connect them.

Rebel leader and "defense minister" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic Igor Strelkov posted on a popular social network that his fighters shot down a Ukrainian cargo aircraft - the pictures are identical with pictures from the crash site of the Malaysian plane. The post was later removed from the network.


Yeah, TOTAL mystery.

Head not in sand-way geek tragedy

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:09 PM

23. ...and the correspondents quitting RT over their coverage are the secret CIA agents, right?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:11 PM

25. Now it all makes sense

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:12 PM

27. @#$% you.

 

Either demonstrate that my OP is BS, link to a post I've made that claims "the correspondents quitting RT over their coverage are the secret CIA agents", or retract your post.

Making unfounded accusations like that is a low sort of thing.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:36 PM

76. Well, that should have been hidden as a personal attack, Manny.

A jury left it, though. I'll bet if I wrote the same thing, though, that it would be hidden. What do you think?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #76)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:47 PM

81. I agree with you MineralMan

I think if you wrote that in a post you would get a hide.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #76)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:02 PM

104. Didn't bother me...

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #104)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 08:57 AM

109. Well, OK, then.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 07:22 PM

117. @#$% you Manny

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:29 PM

42. Manny said that? Link please!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:49 PM

58. Manny said "@#$% You" I noticed.

It survived an alert, too. Go figure.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:13 PM

29. I'm sure Greenwald will have something nasty to say about the President

 

in all this - for you to agree on - and barely a discouraging or negative word about Pooty Putz.

Let's see how that rolls out.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #29)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 10:14 AM

112. How the flying fuck did this become about greenwald?

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:37 PM

51. You and Limbaugh have something in common.

Let's make this all about the US.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #51)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:01 PM

62. it is some weird inverted form of American Exceptionalism, isn't it?

Instead of the odious, "America is special, we can do no wrong, and are the source of all good in the world," traditional flavor of exceptionalism, it's the, perhaps less odious and dangerous, but still equally bizarre and counterproductive, "America is special, we can do no right, and are the source of all evil in the world." I mean heaven forbid there are shitty, illiberal, governments and institutions out there who we aren't responsible for that deserve some criticism in addition to the ones we've had hands in.

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Response to renegade000 (Reply #62)

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 09:11 PM

120. Nah, more like low risk betting.

Since WWII if there is a mess the odds are we have been heavily involved and often the primary driver of a lot of bad news and if not us then our corporations and quasi governmental agencies stirring the muck.

Now, it isn't ALWAYS us because other forces are also at work in the world and some things happen beyond anyone's plan but you won't go broke betting on us being at least waist deep no matter how vigorous the the protest otherwise, though often it may take years and decades for the truth comes out.

I'd say it is fair to withhold benefit of the doubt at virtually all times at this point, the influence and capture by powerful interests with their own agenda and the right wing and rogue nature of the security and surveillance apparatus absolutely dictates it. That does not infer any other regime or sources be trusted either but rather to to view all data with a critical eye and assuming all the facts have not been presented, unraveling every inconsistency and always following the money.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:45 PM

56. Slap dick thread

 

But no surprise there.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:47 PM

57. MH17: Separatists block crash site access as evidence grows against them

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine

A unit of heavily armed rebels blocked the 30-strong team from the OSCE, cordoning off a large part of the crash site. The inspectors retreated after an hour-long standoff, having been unable to gain access. They were sent on their way by warning shots fired by the rebel unit commander.

"We will keep coming back tomorrow and the next day and the next day," said spokesman Michael Bociurkiw. "Tomorrow will be a crunch day. There are a lot of experts from the Netherlands and Malaysia gathering in Kiev as well as relatives. The bodies are starting to bloat and decay. An expert team is clearly needed. There is a lot to be done in a short amount of time."



It's painfully obvious at this point.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #57)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:34 PM

88. Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings

15:29:

Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

I wonder if they will edit them?

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Response to ozone_man (Reply #88)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:42 PM

90. They have no reason to, since they didn't shoot down the plane.

 


The scumbag Russian-backed terrorists did.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:50 PM

59. So is this tragedy about you?

I am not getting your post.

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:02 PM

63. Yes

"So this tragedy is about you?"

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:15 PM

68. I think you've got it perfectly...nt

Sid

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:05 PM

64. It has been reported the rebels captured 1 or more BUK missile launchers from Ukr govt forces.

 

That appears to be how they obtained them. As far as technical operational know-how, who knows? Its possible Russia sent personell there to operate the SAMs, or to instruct the rebels in their use. Its also possible that former Soviet Army Ukranians in the rebel forces have technical knowledge of the weapon from their time in the Soviet military. We don't know.
It is unlikely that the BUK SAMs were recent rebel acquisitions directly from Russia. It would be far too easy to track their movements and trace them back to Russia. Weapons aid from Russia is most likely light weapons... AKs, grenades, light machine guns, shoulder-fired missiles... they would be harder to track and trace back to Russia.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:33 PM

75. Manny hates Obama, Manny loves talking about himself. I think that covers it.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #75)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 05:23 PM

92. yup

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:41 PM

79. When you let your hate for our government

spill over to a tragedy like this you lose credibility IMO.

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Response to countingbluecars (Reply #79)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:44 PM

80. MannyGoldstein won't be able to reply to you.

He had a post hidden in this thread.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:53 PM

82. Trashcanning.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:55 PM

83. Sigh. Disappointment with Obama carried to the illogical extreme.

Really? We should distrust anything and everything our own government says, no matter the details, context, or amount of supporting data?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:01 PM

84. I agree with the assessment

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:02 PM

85. No shirtless picture with him on a horse?

 

Shame on you.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:45 PM

91. Hear hear. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:19 PM

97. Manny loves Putin, Manny love Putin, Manny love Putin!

 

Someone open a window already!

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Response to Rex (Reply #97)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:28 PM

100. Do you remember Right Wingers using that against Liberals, 'you love Saddam', during the

Iraq debacle? Did you EVER think you see it used against liberals on DU? DU was where Liberals came to get away from that garbage and now, once again, Liberals are the targets of these exact same idiotic tactics.

It does help however to figure things out which is always a good thing, imo.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #100)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:30 PM

101. Do you ever wonder if the similar rhetoric might be because they are the same people n/t

 

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Response to betterdemsonly (Reply #101)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:34 PM

103. Yes, that thought has occurred to me.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #100)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:02 AM

105. Yes I knew once I saw people mocking the idea that the BFEE exists

 

on DU2, that nothing was going to be out of bounds. However this was an attempt at a fart joke. Nobody else has a name like Pootin.

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Response to Rex (Reply #105)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:06 AM

106. True, attacking the Left on DU has become acceptable. Maybe who so many of the best of DU no longer

post here. Lol, a 'fart joke', I'm slow I guess.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #106)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:09 AM

107. Yeah I remember the exodus from DU2.

 

When we couldn't talk about 9/11 anymore and the usual suspects forgot all about the 2000 selection and thought the Iraq war might just be a good idea in 2003.

Sadly some of them are still here...I think they still are Reagan Democrats that are just yanking our chain, because they are untouchable.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:09 PM

99. They are merely reporting what social media figured out a day ago.

You don't have to use them as a source. And you shouldn't use them as an excuse to pretend we don't know what happened.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:32 PM

102. Good post, thanks Manny ... the very last thing the world needs is a war with Russia

and I have a feeling that Obama feels the same way. But the warmongers, Dick Cheney eg, are working hard to push him and he needs US to back him up. It is truly important right now to help him fight off the Cheneys and the rest of the warmongers by overwhelmingly demonstrating that the people do not want the US involved in a war that will make Iraq look like a walk in the park.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 02:45 AM

108. You mean people can still post the word "Putin"?

 

I wonder for how long?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 09:02 AM

110. What a worthless post.

 

Devoid of information or enlightenment. Designed to start an argument. Waste.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 09:21 AM

111. Could you be anymore obvious...

 

Love the disclaimer at the end---like that's going to work.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 07:15 PM

114. Translation: Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me....

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Response to FSogol (Reply #114)

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 07:17 PM

115. Another Manny thead about...Manny! What a surprise!

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #115)

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 07:19 PM

116. If only I had a bigger ego, I could create posts like that.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #116)

Mon Jul 28, 2014, 07:24 PM

118. You need more mirrors in your house.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

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