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MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:02 PM Jul 2014

Face it, DU: Manny *loves* Putin.

At the risk (well, certainty) of being labeled a Putin lover/defender and so forth, there are a couple of things that I'd like to point out regarding the horrible downing of MH17 and the deaths of so many.

First off, this man:



the Director of National Intelligence, flagrantly and admittedly lied even to Congress and still has his job. Clearly, our government has no big concerns about lying to Americans. So why would we believe anything at all that they tell us? It might be true, it might be a lie, but mostly, it will be what suits their own goals, not ours.

Sadly, it's hard to know who to believe here. In situations like this, I tend to turn to the foreign press to see what they're saying, particularly those sources that tend to be truthful and tend not to be US lapdogs. I took a look at Deutsche Welle, which I've found to be fair and level-headed, and it seems that things are not so clear with regard to who downed MH17:

From:

Leads point to missile downing MH17

The plane was apparently hit by a surface-to-air missile. The separatists have denied that they are able to hit an aircraft flying at 10,000 meters (33,000 feet).

Aviation expert Heinrich Großbongardt told DW that rebel and guerilla organizations never before had access to such type of weapons. They often had shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles of rather small caliber, but those could only reach an altitude of up to 4,000 meters, he told DW.

Other weapons systems are required to fire 10,000 meters into the sky. If it is proven that rebels downed the plane, one had to thoroughly check how they could get their hands on such a weapon, he added. The pro-Russian separatists had previously said they had obtained a mobile Russian anti-aircraft defense system Buk last week.

That, however, is a very sophisticated system and it's questionable whether they were able to learn how to operate Buk in such a short time. There are also reports that the Ukrainian military also has such weapons; it has denied firing any missiles.

This may be BS, it may be accurate... but it is in a legitimate news source that seems to no longer be in bed with the US government.

The bottom line is that I'm suggesting that we all wait a little while before forming a judgment here. Things may become quite clear in the coming days - or, like the Syrian gas attacks, they may become more uncertain.

(And no, this doesn't mean I approve of Putin. I don't. With gusto.)
122 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Face it, DU: Manny *loves* Putin. (Original Post) MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 OP
Who said you love Putin? n/t JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #1
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #2
A 'useful idiot?' leftstreet Jul 2014 #3
I had to mince words to respect this site's community standards. nt conservaphobe Jul 2014 #5
You think calling Manny an idiot... tkmorris Jul 2014 #28
A pattern is forming .... H2O Man Jul 2014 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author PowerToThePeople Jul 2014 #52
Indeed it is tkmorris Jul 2014 #65
How's that working out for you? 11 Bravo Jul 2014 #119
Of course, we were all accused of being Saddam Lovers and Useful Idiots by Bush sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #34
Well said malaise Jul 2014 #93
I'll sell you my Putin-Riding-Bear velvet blacklight poster. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2014 #4
Did you sell your 'I love Saddam' memorabilia and if so, how much did you get for it? sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #36
...if you actually have one F4lconF16 Jul 2014 #87
I'll alert the media. Bobbie Jo Jul 2014 #6
I don't even know what to say Peacetrain Jul 2014 #7
fap fap fap PowerToThePeople Jul 2014 #8
Ludamussy! If that were my chest, I'd COVER IT UP!!! 1monster Jul 2014 #86
+1000 JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #98
whyzat? Not a fatty or a flabby demwing Jul 2014 #113
Do you ever have a thought that isn't important sufrommich Jul 2014 #9
Looking at my last 100 posts, ... MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #12
OK, Manny. Whatever you say. MineralMan Jul 2014 #10
Which is *exactly* what I suggested that you do in the OP MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #13
Well said. Octafish Jul 2014 #11
Thanks Obama. L0oniX Jul 2014 #14
Manny, I'm not clear on what you are saying. grasswire Jul 2014 #15
Or friendly fire. n/t betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #17
No. MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #22
In war, truth is the first casualty. Aeschylus Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #16
"After the first death, there is no other." -Dylan Thomas Chan790 Jul 2014 #70
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #18
Since I have zero recollection of making them, MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #19
lol Whisp Jul 2014 #26
Is this what you are talking about? JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #35
And Mel Brooks thinks gassing Jews is a riot! MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #37
You are no Mel Brooks Manny JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #44
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #48
Socrates? JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #53
Schmuck? Again with the insults, Manny? MineralMan Jul 2014 #60
He deleted it out JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #66
I won't get a hide for pointing out that an insult MineralMan Jul 2014 #69
Ahh I just read it and understood it JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #73
A jury left it 4-3. MineralMan Jul 2014 #74
"we connect off the site and we make you own it" grasswire Jul 2014 #89
No JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #94
sure seems like it nt grasswire Jul 2014 #95
Relax relax relax JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #96
About the size of it. Five bucks says it's Autumn Oct 2014 #121
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Dec 2014 #122
Not the same at all. Coventina Jul 2014 #46
I agree JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #50
Thanks, J. Yeh, I knew I wasn't imagining things. Whisp Jul 2014 #38
Well a lot of us did JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #45
And your description of me is totally inaccurate. MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #43
Yes, I believe it was what he was talking about. MineralMan Jul 2014 #67
Me too JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #71
The Schmuck post was hidden. I had alerted on it, but MineralMan Jul 2014 #72
K&R!!! n/t RKP5637 Jul 2014 #77
A line from "Animal Farm" MineralMan Jul 2014 #78
. redqueen Jul 2014 #20
You win the thread... SidDithers Jul 2014 #31
Exactly! n/t Spazito Jul 2014 #41
No, ME! MineralMan Jul 2014 #55
only thing that comes to mind with these JI7 Jul 2014 #61
it's perfectly clear who shot it down to anyone who doesn't geek tragedy Jul 2014 #21
So is DW lying or stupid? MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #24
Perhaps they are neither and just don't have all the facts yet since the investigation maddezmom Jul 2014 #32
That's what *I* think, but Geek Tragedy knows better. nt MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #33
Geek knew right away who did it. sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #39
one can gather from the report geek tragedy Jul 2014 #47
There's evidence in the article that I linked to MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #49
" it seems that things are not so clear with regard to who downed MH17" geek tragedy Jul 2014 #54
being rather over-cautious, they give everyone all the dots geek tragedy Jul 2014 #40
...and the correspondents quitting RT over their coverage are the secret CIA agents, right? brooklynite Jul 2014 #23
Now it all makes sense maddezmom Jul 2014 #25
@#$% you. MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #27
Well, that should have been hidden as a personal attack, Manny. MineralMan Jul 2014 #76
I agree with you MineralMan JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #81
Didn't bother me... brooklynite Jul 2014 #104
Well, OK, then. MineralMan Jul 2014 #109
@#$% you Manny XRubicon Jul 2014 #117
Manny said that? Link please! sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #42
Manny said "@#$% You" I noticed. MineralMan Jul 2014 #58
I'm sure Greenwald will have something nasty to say about the President Whisp Jul 2014 #29
How the flying fuck did this become about greenwald? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #112
You and Limbaugh have something in common. pnwmom Jul 2014 #51
it is some weird inverted form of American Exceptionalism, isn't it? renegade000 Jul 2014 #62
Nah, more like low risk betting. TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #120
Slap dick thread LordGlenconner Jul 2014 #56
MH17: Separatists block crash site access as evidence grows against them geek tragedy Jul 2014 #57
Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings ozone_man Jul 2014 #88
They have no reason to, since they didn't shoot down the plane. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #90
So is this tragedy about you? itsrobert Jul 2014 #59
Yes JI7 Jul 2014 #63
I think you've got it perfectly...nt SidDithers Jul 2014 #68
It has been reported the rebels captured 1 or more BUK missile launchers from Ukr govt forces. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #64
Manny hates Obama, Manny loves talking about himself. I think that covers it. DanTex Jul 2014 #75
yup JI7 Jul 2014 #92
When you let your hate for our government countingbluecars Jul 2014 #79
MannyGoldstein won't be able to reply to you. MineralMan Jul 2014 #80
Trashcanning. Skidmore Jul 2014 #82
Sigh. Disappointment with Obama carried to the illogical extreme. riqster Jul 2014 #83
I agree with the assessment Fearless Jul 2014 #84
No shirtless picture with him on a horse? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #85
Hear hear. nt bemildred Jul 2014 #91
Manny loves Putin, Manny love Putin, Manny love Putin! Rex Jul 2014 #97
Do you remember Right Wingers using that against Liberals, 'you love Saddam', during the sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #100
Do you ever wonder if the similar rhetoric might be because they are the same people n/t betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #101
Yes, that thought has occurred to me. sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #103
Yes I knew once I saw people mocking the idea that the BFEE exists Rex Jul 2014 #105
True, attacking the Left on DU has become acceptable. Maybe who so many of the best of DU no longer sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #106
Yeah I remember the exodus from DU2. Rex Jul 2014 #107
They are merely reporting what social media figured out a day ago. joshcryer Jul 2014 #99
Good post, thanks Manny ... the very last thing the world needs is a war with Russia sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #102
You mean people can still post the word "Putin"? Corruption Inc Jul 2014 #108
What a worthless post. randome Jul 2014 #110
Could you be anymore obvious... trumad Jul 2014 #111
Translation: Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me.... FSogol Jul 2014 #114
Another Manny thead about...Manny! What a surprise! randome Jul 2014 #115
If only I had a bigger ego, I could create posts like that. FSogol Jul 2014 #116
You need more mirrors in your house. randome Jul 2014 #118

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Response to H2O Man (Reply #30)

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
34. Of course, we were all accused of being Saddam Lovers and Useful Idiots by Bush
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:18 PM
Jul 2014

supporters also for daring to WANT FACTS and for suspecting that we have war mongers in this country, mostly on the Right, see McCain and Fox these days eg, of whom we need to be very, very careful. They will ANY excuse to start another war, we said, and we were called many things, 'Traitors', 'Terror Supporters', 'Saddam Lovers'. But that was coming from the Right.

It is shameful to see these same, very familiar, epithets and phrases aimed once again Liberals, only this time on DU.

'Useful idiots', I remember it well. Thanks for the bad memories. And we were right, Liberals, but not good being right when the powers that control these things, set out to silence people who dare to not go along for the ride.

Ten years from now, liberals will be proven right again. Which is why Liberals are always the targets of these propaganda tactics.

Perhaps you explain why you consider liberals to be 'useful idiots' rather than using old Iraq War supporters talking points, this is a Democratic Forum where many of us remember these talking points well.

malaise

(267,797 posts)
93. Well said
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 05:30 PM
Jul 2014

I am not now and never have been one of the gullible.
I have never swallowed the 'party' line from any side.
I think therefore I am. There are no saints - of that I'm sure.

Truth will out but I am not swallowing the official kool-aid.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
4. I'll sell you my Putin-Riding-Bear velvet blacklight poster.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:15 PM
Jul 2014

I've switched to a Pol Pot theme for my bedroom, so Putin has to go. Amazon is delivering my S-21 Prison lightswitch plate today--I can hardly wait! Anyway, let me know about the poster. $15 firm.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
36. Did you sell your 'I love Saddam' memorabilia and if so, how much did you get for it?
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:21 PM
Jul 2014

I still have mine, but would like to replace it with 'I love Pootie' signs, buttons etc which should be very valuable about ten years from now.

Peacetrain

(22,836 posts)
7. I don't even know what to say
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jul 2014

But this is ridiculous.. trying to tar the US in this disaster??.. sorry but you are off the deep end on this one

MineralMan

(146,190 posts)
10. OK, Manny. Whatever you say.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:30 PM
Jul 2014

You're the one I turn to for facts about international incidents. That's for sure. You bet.

Insincerity-way,

MineralManny

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
13. Which is *exactly* what I suggested that you do in the OP
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:55 PM
Jul 2014

Not.

Regards,

How-about-reading-the-thing-before-posting Manny

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
11. Well said.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:31 PM
Jul 2014

BTW: While most won't judge until all the facts are in, there's always the group that wants to get ahead of the crowd and slam the messenger first thing. It makes DU a lovely.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
15. Manny, I'm not clear on what you are saying.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:01 PM
Jul 2014

Are you implying that there is a possibility the shooting was a false flag operation?

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
70. "After the first death, there is no other." -Dylan Thomas
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:18 PM
Jul 2014

By that I mean, if truth is the first death...then the death of truth is the last real fact.

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
35. Is this what you are talking about?
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:20 PM
Jul 2014

Manny - making a funny about the school that served fried chicken and watermelon for black history month by making it about 'gelfite'. Anyone can go back to February 2014 and see the threads. Go back in G.D. or the African American group. There were several threads about it by several different posters. We aren't "new".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024472335



MrScorpio lays down some discipline here. Now this is a good read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024468868



Just two for reference in case you were wondering Whisp. About your sanity that is. Because you aren't crazy. You saw it with your own two eyes.

Me - it's got nothing to do with that thread. I just generally distrust anyone that was born in 1957 or earlier and that person (this is an And - because we have some old liberal warriors here at DU that I bow down to) did not vote for Jimmy Carter twice. Because they were of age to vote for him twice. If you were born in 1960/1961 and did not vote for him once - then same level of distrust is there.

That's my personal thing though - and it's how I know who to trust in the older generations. That's how I've experienced America.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
44. You are no Mel Brooks Manny
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:30 PM
Jul 2014

Let me know when you win an Oscar. Okey dokey?

You weren't funny.

We connect off the site you know - and we make you 'own it' - whether you ever choose to do so or not.

We can't be made to think that you are empathetic to our experiences in America.

So just accept that there are people who saw it - took the venom - and we don't have to respect you. You don't have to respect us. TOS says to be polite and watch our words - no personal attacks.

You will be hard pressed to find where I've attacked you with this response. I was polite. Watched my words. But I don't lie to myself and don't lie to others. I'm not going to do that. Sorry.

Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #44)

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
53. Socrates?
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:39 PM
Jul 2014

I wasn't trying to be Socrates.

I was going more for a Tina Fey script - And with that . . .



"Whatever, I’m getting cheese fries.” - Regina

MineralMan

(146,190 posts)
60. Schmuck? Again with the insults, Manny?
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:53 PM
Jul 2014
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmuck_(pejorative)

Schmuck or shmuck in American English is a pejorative meaning one who is stupid or foolish; or an obnoxious, contemptible or detestable person. The word entered English from Yiddish (?שמאָק, shmok), where it has similar pejorative meanings, but its original meaning in Yiddish is penis.[1][2] Because of its vulgarity,[3] the word is euphemized as schmoe, which was the source of Al Capp's cartoon strip creature the shmoo.[4] Variants include schmo and shmo.

In Jewish homes, the word was "regarded as so vulgar as to be taboo."[5] Lenny Bruce, a Jewish standup comedian, wrote that the use of the word during his performances in 1962 led to his arrest on the West Coast "by a Yiddish undercover agent who had been placed in the club several nights running to determine if [his] use of Yiddish terms was a cover for profanity."[6]

Etymology[edit]
The German word Schmuck means "jewelry, adornments";[7] In German the pejorative "schmuck" would be Schmock, closer to the original Yiddish word. The transition of the word from meaning "jewel" to meaning "penis" is related to the description of a man's genitals as "the family jewels."[8]

The Online Etymology Dictionary derives it from Eastern Yiddish shmok, literally "penis," from Old Polish smok, "grass snake, dragon,"[9] but Leo Rosten cites Dr. Shlomo Noble of the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research as saying that shmok derives from shmuck and not the other way around.

However, according to the lexicographer Michael Wex, the author of How to Be a Mentsh (And Not a Shmuck), the Yiddish and German "schmucks" are completely unrelated. "Basically, the Yiddish word comes out of baby talk," Wex said. "A little boy’s penis is a shtekl, a 'little stick.' Shtekl became shmeckle, in a kind of baby-rhyming thing, and shmeckle became shmuck. Shmeckle is prepubescent and not a dirty word, but shmuck, the non-diminutive, became obscene."[10]

You're not the only one who understands Yiddish personal insults, you know.

Name-calling doesn't become you...

ETA again: MannyGoldstein has deleted his insult from the post. That's good.
ETA: A jury hid that post, anyhow. Good for that jury.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
66. He deleted it out
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:13 PM
Jul 2014


He must not realize that I went to Passover celebrations at mother's paternal grandmother's house as a kid.

Honestly - I don't care. I'm too Regina George for that.


Just be careful. You don't want to get a hide.

MineralMan

(146,190 posts)
69. I won't get a hide for pointing out that an insult
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:15 PM
Jul 2014

was in his thread. Just above, Manny wrote @#$% You! to another poster. That one was alerted on, but not hidden, as well. It's still there, last time I looked, too.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
73. Ahh I just read it and understood it
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:25 PM
Jul 2014



27. @#$% you.


I didn't understand what all of the exclamation points meant.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
89. "we connect off the site and we make you own it"
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:40 PM
Jul 2014

What the hell does that mean?

Squads passing 'round dossiers on members they don't like?

WTF??

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
94. No
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:04 PM
Jul 2014
Facebook friends and what not. We laugh and kvetch. Relax. Ohmmmmm.

It's not like we have a Mean Girls slam book floating around!

Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #44)

Coventina

(26,844 posts)
46. Not the same at all.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:32 PM
Jul 2014

"The Producers" is about trying to make something intentionally offensive.

"Fried Chicken and Watermelon" is clueless (and sometimes not so clueless) acceptance of ugly stereotyping.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
45. Well a lot of us did
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:32 PM
Jul 2014

I didn't attack him on this sub thread - did I? I checked to make sure I didn't break TOS.

But I'm not a person of the lie.

I don't tell lies.

And I'm not going to lie to myself. I'd rather be booted from the site than be forced to lick his heels.

I'm NOT DOING IT!

MineralMan

(146,190 posts)
67. Yes, I believe it was what he was talking about.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:14 PM
Jul 2014

I remember it, too.

Sadly, Whisp's post was hidden, which exposes his/her transparency and will keep him/her from posting for some time to come. I'm very sorry to see that, since the information was accurate.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
71. Me too
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:21 PM
Jul 2014

I should have DU mailed the links to Whisp so he could update his post with that information. Whisp didn't insult or break TOS there - Whisp was just telling the truth.

I should have alerted on the 'schmuck' comment but I don't alert on insults to me. I have big girl cheekies on - and can handle insults without being a tattle tale or breaking TOS.

MineralMan

(146,190 posts)
72. The Schmuck post was hidden. I had alerted on it, but
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:24 PM
Jul 2014

was the second alert. It was hidden 4-3 by the first jury. Insulting language is insulting language, even if it's not in English. Lots of speakers of other languages on DU, there are.

MineralMan

(146,190 posts)
78. A line from "Animal Farm"
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:40 PM
Jul 2014

comes to mind, somehow. But it's not always true, apparently. Sometimes, at least.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
21. it's perfectly clear who shot it down to anyone who doesn't
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:07 PM
Jul 2014

have their head in the sand.

Things known without relying on the US government:

1) the only military planes flying in the area belong to Ukraine
2) as a result of (1) the only people shooting at planes in the area are the rebels
3) as a result of (2) the only people who have shot down planes in the area are the rebels
4) the rebels have shot down several planes in the past week
5) the head of the rebels bragged about shooting down a plane within minutes of this plane being shot down
6) there are many social media--and Russian-friendly media reports--showing that the rebels had the equipment necessary to do this.

Also, it's been demonstrated that the Syrian government did use the poison gas, the Putin-humpers protestations to the contrary

maddezmom

(135,060 posts)
32. Perhaps they are neither and just don't have all the facts yet since the investigation
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:15 PM
Jul 2014

Into the incident has just begun.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
47. one can gather from the report
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:33 PM
Jul 2014

that every point of evidence made public points towards the rebels, including the rebels own statements:

Rebel leader and "defense minister" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic Igor Strelkov posted on a popular social network that his fighters shot down a Ukrainian cargo aircraft - the pictures are identical with pictures from the crash site of the Malaysian plane. The post was later removed from the network.


Also, the fact that the rebels are the only ones shooting at planes in the area, and the fact that the rebels have shot down multiple planes in that area in the past week.

If there is the tiniest piece of evidence or argument that someone else did it, that evidence has yet to appear



 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
49. There's evidence in the article that I linked to
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:36 PM
Jul 2014

Not proof, but evidence.

Nothing's been proved yet, except to you, of course.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
54. " it seems that things are not so clear with regard to who downed MH17"
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:41 PM
Jul 2014

do you have any reason to believe it was anyone but the Russian side (some combination of separatists inside Ukraine and Russian state)?

Note:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine

Yeah, totally not clear what's going on.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
40. being rather over-cautious, they give everyone all the dots
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:28 PM
Jul 2014

but refuse to connect them.

Rebel leader and "defense minister" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic Igor Strelkov posted on a popular social network that his fighters shot down a Ukrainian cargo aircraft - the pictures are identical with pictures from the crash site of the Malaysian plane. The post was later removed from the network.


Yeah, TOTAL mystery.

Head not in sand-way geek tragedy

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
27. @#$% you.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:12 PM
Jul 2014

Either demonstrate that my OP is BS, link to a post I've made that claims "the correspondents quitting RT over their coverage are the secret CIA agents", or retract your post.

Making unfounded accusations like that is a low sort of thing.

MineralMan

(146,190 posts)
76. Well, that should have been hidden as a personal attack, Manny.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:36 PM
Jul 2014

A jury left it, though. I'll bet if I wrote the same thing, though, that it would be hidden. What do you think?

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
29. I'm sure Greenwald will have something nasty to say about the President
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:13 PM
Jul 2014

in all this - for you to agree on - and barely a discouraging or negative word about Pooty Putz.

Let's see how that rolls out.

renegade000

(2,301 posts)
62. it is some weird inverted form of American Exceptionalism, isn't it?
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:01 PM
Jul 2014

Instead of the odious, "America is special, we can do no wrong, and are the source of all good in the world," traditional flavor of exceptionalism, it's the, perhaps less odious and dangerous, but still equally bizarre and counterproductive, "America is special, we can do no right, and are the source of all evil in the world." I mean heaven forbid there are shitty, illiberal, governments and institutions out there who we aren't responsible for that deserve some criticism in addition to the ones we've had hands in.

TheKentuckian

(24,934 posts)
120. Nah, more like low risk betting.
Mon Jul 28, 2014, 09:11 PM
Jul 2014

Since WWII if there is a mess the odds are we have been heavily involved and often the primary driver of a lot of bad news and if not us then our corporations and quasi governmental agencies stirring the muck.

Now, it isn't ALWAYS us because other forces are also at work in the world and some things happen beyond anyone's plan but you won't go broke betting on us being at least waist deep no matter how vigorous the the protest otherwise, though often it may take years and decades for the truth comes out.

I'd say it is fair to withhold benefit of the doubt at virtually all times at this point, the influence and capture by powerful interests with their own agenda and the right wing and rogue nature of the security and surveillance apparatus absolutely dictates it. That does not infer any other regime or sources be trusted either but rather to to view all data with a critical eye and assuming all the facts have not been presented, unraveling every inconsistency and always following the money.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
57. MH17: Separatists block crash site access as evidence grows against them
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:47 PM
Jul 2014
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine

A unit of heavily armed rebels blocked the 30-strong team from the OSCE, cordoning off a large part of the crash site. The inspectors retreated after an hour-long standoff, having been unable to gain access. They were sent on their way by warning shots fired by the rebel unit commander.

"We will keep coming back tomorrow and the next day and the next day," said spokesman Michael Bociurkiw. "Tomorrow will be a crunch day. There are a lot of experts from the Netherlands and Malaysia gathering in Kiev as well as relatives. The bodies are starting to bloat and decay. An expert team is clearly needed. There is a lot to be done in a short amount of time."



It's painfully obvious at this point.

ozone_man

(4,825 posts)
88. Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:34 PM
Jul 2014

15:29:

Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

I wonder if they will edit them?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
90. They have no reason to, since they didn't shoot down the plane.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:42 PM
Jul 2014

The scumbag Russian-backed terrorists did.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
64. It has been reported the rebels captured 1 or more BUK missile launchers from Ukr govt forces.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:05 PM
Jul 2014

That appears to be how they obtained them. As far as technical operational know-how, who knows? Its possible Russia sent personell there to operate the SAMs, or to instruct the rebels in their use. Its also possible that former Soviet Army Ukranians in the rebel forces have technical knowledge of the weapon from their time in the Soviet military. We don't know.
It is unlikely that the BUK SAMs were recent rebel acquisitions directly from Russia. It would be far too easy to track their movements and trace them back to Russia. Weapons aid from Russia is most likely light weapons... AKs, grenades, light machine guns, shoulder-fired missiles... they would be harder to track and trace back to Russia.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
83. Sigh. Disappointment with Obama carried to the illogical extreme.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:55 PM
Jul 2014

Really? We should distrust anything and everything our own government says, no matter the details, context, or amount of supporting data?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
100. Do you remember Right Wingers using that against Liberals, 'you love Saddam', during the
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:28 PM
Jul 2014

Iraq debacle? Did you EVER think you see it used against liberals on DU? DU was where Liberals came to get away from that garbage and now, once again, Liberals are the targets of these exact same idiotic tactics.

It does help however to figure things out which is always a good thing, imo.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
105. Yes I knew once I saw people mocking the idea that the BFEE exists
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:02 AM
Jul 2014

on DU2, that nothing was going to be out of bounds. However this was an attempt at a fart joke. Nobody else has a name like Pootin.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
106. True, attacking the Left on DU has become acceptable. Maybe who so many of the best of DU no longer
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:06 AM
Jul 2014

post here. Lol, a 'fart joke', I'm slow I guess.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
107. Yeah I remember the exodus from DU2.
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:09 AM
Jul 2014

When we couldn't talk about 9/11 anymore and the usual suspects forgot all about the 2000 selection and thought the Iraq war might just be a good idea in 2003.

Sadly some of them are still here...I think they still are Reagan Democrats that are just yanking our chain, because they are untouchable.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
99. They are merely reporting what social media figured out a day ago.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:09 PM
Jul 2014

You don't have to use them as a source. And you shouldn't use them as an excuse to pretend we don't know what happened.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
102. Good post, thanks Manny ... the very last thing the world needs is a war with Russia
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:32 PM
Jul 2014

and I have a feeling that Obama feels the same way. But the warmongers, Dick Cheney eg, are working hard to push him and he needs US to back him up. It is truly important right now to help him fight off the Cheneys and the rest of the warmongers by overwhelmingly demonstrating that the people do not want the US involved in a war that will make Iraq look like a walk in the park.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
110. What a worthless post.
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 09:02 AM
Jul 2014

Devoid of information or enlightenment. Designed to start an argument. Waste.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
115. Another Manny thead about...Manny! What a surprise!
Mon Jul 28, 2014, 07:17 PM
Jul 2014

[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
118. You need more mirrors in your house.
Mon Jul 28, 2014, 07:24 PM
Jul 2014

[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

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