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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI have never known someone who was poor who didn't think about money a lot.
One caveat: People who chose to go live in the backwoods, build their own houses and make leather goods or rocking chairs for a living. And all of those folks had middle class or more backgrounds and college degrees.
If you're poor and worrying about whether you can keep a roof over your head or whether you'll have enough food to feed your kids, you think about money. A lot.
If you're health isn't good and you don't have health insurance, you think about money. A lot. (and here's where I say Obamacare is a good thing).
If you never have enough money to go to a movie or out to dinner. You think about money. A lot.
If you own a house and you're poor, you worry about paying taxes and mortgage. A lot.
Money is absolutely a priority in the lives of the poor. How could it not be?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and addressing the poverty problem (i.e., income inequity) should be Democrats Mission One ... I would suggest (and I know this will not be a popular position) that we address the poverty problem by addressing the poverty problem. Rather than focus on how much the wealthy have, and/or how they get it; how about we tax them by closing the tax loop-holes, and apply that revenue to building/shoring up the social safety net, including healthcare and nutrition support and child-care and education ... and then, possibly, developing a minimum income support (e.g., establish a direct transfer payment to bring those in poverty to above the poverty line).
As I said, I doubt this approach will be widely accepted, here, because it would leave most of those talking about income inequity, untouched/unbenefitted.
cali
(114,904 posts)and yes, it won't be widely accepted here.
cheers,
Eva
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I think people make a calculation of how broke the system is - what you are talking about is some serious overhaul, but the machine would remain basically as it is; it would just run better and more justly. Some believe that the machine is more broken than that, and what we need is a new machine.
And others think things are going just fine so long as we have Democrats in the white house.
Bryant
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)would think the system is just fine, were it not be for their being on the short end of the income inequity stick.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)evidenced by DUer's comfort in the status quo, so long as the status quo doesn't negatively affect them, personally. For an example, see any of the privilege threads, where apparently, the only "real" privilege to be recognized is wealth.
{Editorial Note: "Most" might be inaccurate, and stretching it, but a lot ... and more than one would anticipate on a site dominated by self-described liberals and progressives.}
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...I'll bet it would cost less than the programs we have now and be more effective.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)One of the things that annoys me about politics is that most politicians never seem to want to address problems head on. They always want to throw together some sort of Rube Goldberg, highly inefficient and circuitous method to try and address any given problem.
Coventina
(27,217 posts)People who say they don't think about money are either:
1. Very spiritually evolved and/or leading a monastic life
or
2. Well off, even if they would claim not to be.
cali
(114,904 posts)although one poster in this thread thinks that I'm speaking for all poor people, I make no such claim. I'm speaking of those I know and have known and from my own experience. I do think that you could probably fairly extrapolate as you have done.
Response to cali (Original post)
bigtree This message was self-deleted by its author.
cali
(114,904 posts)Another dim post from the big....
gad. you just aren't too.... or even a little bit. and honesty? you possess little of that evidently.
I made up nothing, my oh so brilliant and petulant detractor. I relayed my experience.
and yes, I do have a lot of ideas and quite a bit of experience/
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)personally has known.
What the...?
cali
(114,904 posts)but thanks.
bigtree
(86,013 posts). . . but I'm actually sorry for that post, I meant to self-delete and found it still up. I'll delete it now, and you can go back to your fascinating psychoanalysis of how people regard money.
I made a stupid post based on the 'bee in my bonnet' and I withdraw it.
cali
(114,904 posts)I know a lot of poor people. I live in a poor area. For years I worked in social services with folks who were poor. I've been poor.
Let me tell you a little story: I have a friend who this winter was burning her kitchen cabinets to stay warm. She's a bright, lovely woman with 3 disabled children who is disabled herself. She worked like a dog when she was able to. She fell through the cracks. Her brother, who was a disabled vet, died last fall and she depended on his income to get by- to pay the mortgage on her house. Something went wrong with her benefits as well. Her car died. Her electricity was turned off. Yes, she thinks about money a lot. Being desperate will do that. And I'll tell you something else, mock me if you wish. The first thing I did when I came into some money, was take her out grocery shopping (well, actually the first thing I did was buy my son a fitness club membership that he'd been hankering for). It was a great pleasure to do this for someone who has always been so kind to me- giving me rides when I didn't have a car, bringing me flowers from her garden, etc.
I am glad that I've experienced being poor- even if it was a weird kind of poverty. It was damn real enough that I qualified for food stamps. The whole experience has given me a much greater understanding of what being poor does to your spirit, of how it burdens you each and every day.
Thank you for deleting your post and recognizing that you wrote it because you dislike me.
bigtree
(86,013 posts). . . I just respond to what you write. I strongly suspect you're a kind and decent person.
. . . oh, and nice story.
H2O Man
(73,655 posts)Gandhi said that poverty is the worst form of violence. In order to fully appreciate the truth of this statement, I believe, one has to recognize that there are various levels of poverty. I can remember my father saying that being poor used to make people stronger. There is some truth to that, too. However, there are numerous types of poverty that, by their extreme nature, cannot possibly make a person "stronger" in the sense that my father meant.
My father grew up in the Great Depression. Most of his childhood was spent in a rural farm house, far away from electricity. While his family was definitely poor, that form was distinct from the poverty that his grandfather knew in Ireland, during the Great Starvation. My dad's family owned land, and had farm animals, gardens, and orchards that provided food for them. He was the 10th of 14 children, so I would speculate that he dressed in the hand-me-down clothing from his older brothers. And he had access to public schools -- a two-room school house in a tiny hamlet, but still offering an adequate educational opportunity to those who planned to leave the farming life-style, and relocate into a town or city.
By the time he retired, my father was making enough money to live quite comfortably. He enjoyed helping his five adult children out financially, and loved buying things for his many grandchildren. But when it came to himself, the guy was tight with a dime. After he died, I found about 17 coffee cans filled with bent nails in his workshop. He had more good nails, of every size, and surely did not need those bent ones. But it was a habit he learned as a poor kid: save bent nails, in case you need to un-bend them for later use.
cali
(114,904 posts)I particularly like the saving bent nail part as I'm an inveterate saver/reuser/repurposer. I love doing that.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)I don't have a junky looking hoarder house, but I do keep stuff like bits of hardware, tissue paper, containers, etc. But then I always find a use for whatever it is.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)But before I went I picked through the load for potentially useful scraps of iron.
And to the larger point of this thread, I absolutely agree that not thinking about money is a luxury reserved for the well-to-do.
(And if you don't mind one small nitpick, I think you meant something like "exception" where you wrote "caveat" in the OP.)
cali
(114,904 posts)I love junk. I have found the most wonderful stuff at the dump. Once I found this huge volume of bound art magazines from 1979. Really beautiful quality reproductions of all kinds of art. That was about 10 years ago. I've been cutting it up and making cards from it, and from some heavy stock that a friend who worked at a printing place gave me. Much, much nicer than anything you can buy, and free. Only problem is no matter how many pics I cut out that book still weighs a ton.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)It seems many if not most of the wealthiest are the most out of touch with the realities, let alone the issues, of poverty. That's only on one level, the human, were their lack of empathy is astounding.
It seems to me, though, that their agents know exactly what they're doing. Through Wall Street and Washington they have legalized theft and made penury, debt peonage and poverty their means for social and societal control.
Too much democracy? Dial down social services, from public education to investing in government and public service sector jobs, and voila! People become too busy thinking about feeding their kids or keeping a roof over their heads to worry about democracy or anything else other than survival.
Fear, to keep the "Quo" after the Status. Yet, they believe themselves superior and entitled.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)When you're rich, you don't have to think about/worry about money. It's no different than folks with white privilege not having to think about various sorts of hassles black people have to worry about day in and day out, or women have to worry about day in and day out that men don't. There are all sorts of privileges floating around, and wealth is certainly one of them.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But some can see the former; but not the latter forms.
Wonder why that is? Could it be, we are comfortable with the status quo, even when it is pointed out to you (in the generic), so long as you (in the generic) are benefitted/not threatened by it?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)It takes a certain amount of effort to try and look outside your own perspective, so it's a lot easier to see the privilege others have that you don't, than the privilege you have that others don't.
The status quo is always going to be the 'safe' option for those who benefit from it. Attempting change, even if your goal is to raise others up to your level, not to 'drop you' down to theirs, is going to be scary.
(Likewise all 'you's generic.)
Also, while many forms of privilege are essentially binary (white/PoC, male/female, gay/het, etc) 'wealth' privilege is a continuum, and studies have shown that people routinely have widely incorrect notions of how extreme inequality is, and tend to think of themselves as being 'better off' than they really are. So vast numbers of lower and middle class people are constantly misled into thinking they're being helped by measures that actually only benefit a tiny number of plutocrats, or that they have some chance, with 'hard work' to join the ranks of same.
Still, I think that for introducing people to the concept of privilege for the first time, it would probably be helpful to discuss all sorts of privilege, to get them to understand the general concept first. I'd think that once you'd gotten that point across, it would be easier to lead them into examining the way the unprivileged PoC are harmed by their lack of the privileges that accrue to melanin-deficiency in American society, or the ways in which privilege harms women or gays.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)class - by which they mainly mean white, heterosexual working-class men.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Even now, when I am luckily neither, I still think about it. An old habit acquired during years of dearth.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)which makes them poor. They get money and think they have to spend it the next day on SOMETHING.
That can be for rich or poor too. Warren Buffet is worth billions yet his favorite restaurant is a hamburger joint. He's lived in the same house for 50 years etc. Then you have millionaires who are alwasy broke because they have to have the latest and best of everything.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Hence why I don't presume to tell people what they should or shouldn't spend their money on. Even especially when they have very little of it.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)In the area where I live. I am sure many people in this area are spending up and perhaps over 50% of their income just for housing. I do not begrudge someone whose life is constant struggle a treat. Probably keeps people going.t
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)50 years ago, you watched what was free on tv and hung out in the park and did free stuff and your entertainment budget for your entire family for the month was about $2. Entertainment itself....was a luxury. I work in a call center with people who make $15-$20 per hour and everyone one of them spends about $75/month on cable, $100 per month at restaurants/bars, $100 on cell phones in their family...just to stay entertained. The cost of not being "bored" is bankrupting our entire socity.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)you know if there's something you've been doing without, you'd better get it right then or you won't have the opportunity to get it again. So yeah, poor people spend what money they have right away. But that is a result of being poor, not a cause. People are poor because they're working minimum wage jobs in a world where that isn't enough to live on.
bullwinkle428
(20,631 posts)understanding why every one of these points is completely spot-on.
K&R.
msongs
(67,465 posts)there is more awareness of who has money and what is poor. my grandma told me tales of her childhood on a kentucky farm where everyone was what we would call poor these days, but they didnt think of themselves that way. everyone was in the same condition and they had little knowledge of the greater world beyond so not much envy of people who had more. and the town kids always wanted to come to the farm!
cali
(114,904 posts)urban poverty. At least there's the wealth of nature. But none of this is about envy of people who have more. It's about not having enough.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)I work with the urban poor in a healthcare setting and live and volunteer with the rural poor. It sucks either way but in a city you have more services. You can walk to a store. Get a bus pass. Get to a job. Where I live you are stuck in the woods. If you don't have a car or no money for gas, you pretty much are stuck. My county has no jobs. The closest store is 11 miles away if you're 80 years old or sick or have 5 little kids it might as we'll be 100 miles. There is no homeless shelter no food bank you can walk to. People still go without electricity or plumbing. And poor people are back in the woods not visible and really alone. Rural poor is a bitch.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)and move up barely to not a dirt floor by the skin of your teeth, you think about money a lot.
When you grow up working your ass off everyday for some fuck of a step father who beats you, and not earn 1 red cent, you think about money a lot.
When you finally stand up for yourself and beat him back and are forced to find another home before 16, you think about money a lot.
When you finally have some and spend it just as quick as you got it and spend weeks and months beating yourself up for it, you think about money a lot.
But hey, other people's lives are more important and can't be bothered with this type of reality, let's turn on "Dancing with the Stars"
And you know what, there are millions who have it wayyyyyyy worse than this, but at the very least let's not pick on rich people that perpetuate this. They earned it with high speaking fees and selling books. Leave them alone!
lunasun
(21,646 posts)'There is only one class in the community that thinks more about money than the rich, and that is the poor. The poor can think of nothing else.'
Oscar Wilde
Yes people care more about $ when they need it vs already have it
Kaleva
(36,372 posts)I have a budget and I pay the regular monthly bills first and live off of what's left which isn't much. I can't afford a car but I do have a moped or I walk or I use public transportation or bum a ride. Fortunately for me, my house which I bought for $24k 14 years ago is paid for and I have health coverage from the VA and Medicare.
Edit; On second thought, I do think about how to stretch the dollar quite a bit . I find it a fun kind of challenge to make the most of the money I do get and to cut costs down as much as possible.
Scully
(60 posts)... of course it is a priority, and that is how certain groups would prefer it to continue. When all you can focus on is getting by, most people don't have the energy/time/spirit to try and change the status quo- you just want to survive. Those who would prefer the status quo therefore have no incentive to help others raise their standard of living. It's the opposite of bread and circuses- instead of distracting people from what's really happening with mindless entertainment, people are too downtrodden to pay attention to anything but their own plight.
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs posits that humans can only progress on to other focuses when their needs in the current tier are fulfilled- e.g., Tier 1 biological and physiological needs like air/food/drink/shelter etc. must be fulfilled before humans can focus on tier 2 needs (Safety/ security/ shelter). If a majority of people are focused entirely on fulfilling tier 1 and tier 2 needs, they will never progress to the higher tiers in the hierarchy which would be needed to be in a personal state to create change in the world....
cali
(114,904 posts)And welcome to DU.
Scully
(60 posts)... but I've been here for about a dozen years- just don't post very often
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)were not terribly important until a middle class appeared. The poor were busy on Tier 1 and 2, and the wealthy were treated very well by the status quo.
Once a middle class developed, you had people who could start caring about higher tiers, but were not served well by the status quo.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)Except she should probably only tell people who actually cares, like other millionaires.
kickysnana
(3,908 posts)And I had to call back during working hours on Monday. Cause I didn't know how I was going to come up with the interest and late fee. It was eventually fixed but sometimes you just have to take the hit.
I've taken care of my stroke disabled Aunt since 2006. I had family members come in when I had to go to twice a year out of state medical treatment for two years about 5 years ago but never for anything else. She is allowed some hours PCA but is not really safe, for more than a short time without someone here and the cuts to the Medicaid Home Health Care have made it impossible to get anyone in to cover when she needs them here. If I pay for as much Home Care as she needs I have no money to do anything.
I made it a priority last year to try to cobble together something so I could take a couple of days away once or twice a year and it was just not possible. Her case worker set up an intake with Senior Well-being company who was supposed to help us with this. They got their money for their intake visit and their three phone calls the last one saying "it just isn't possible right now. Maybe in the future." Why couldn't they give that money to a PCA who would actually bee here and do something.
Today I was back at my therapist and she asked me what was stressing me so much now. I am waking up with night terrors, again. I told her I really, really need a day every so often where I can sleep in, where I can eat when I am hungry and, if I want to, I don't have to talk to anyone about the minutia it takes to keep us going and I don't have to sound convincing that it is perfectly OK when she has a day with diarrhea or forgets to tell me about that important call I had been waiting on came in when I was out getting the mail and she picked up the phone before it registered on caller ID.
I know I am lucky to have what I do have but being poor is still very stressful.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)when you have no money, if you are a thread away from a check bouncing (causing a spiral of more financial difficulties because of the penalties), if you can buy gas, can buy lunch, etc.... then you should avoid ANY TIME talking about financial hardships that will make you look like an unaware prick.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)and I still got most of it left....
signed--living good on 800 a month...
land paid off, house built by me, garden for food and smoke, several guitars, birds free, trees, mountains.
I don't have money, but I feel rich.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Nice to meet you.
I'm poor. I pull in less than $800/month. I rarely think about money. Nor worry about money.