We lived on this continent before it was *discovered*...

[Playinghardball]

[Warpy]

1. Pueblo friends were discussing that when I first moved out here

I just told them that white history books left out the operative word, that Columbus was the first imperialist European to "discover" land in the western hemisphere.

They rather liked that. They invited me back.

After all, the Norse had been here and at least one Irishman had been here and there are hints that the Polynesians, Japanese Ainu and Chinese also got here before a Spaniard claimed it for god, gold and glory for the King of Spain.

[1StrongBlackMan]

3. And Africans had been to the Americas, as well. ...

In fact (according to Bennett), CC's navigator was a more Moor who told CC that circumnavigating the globe was not likely; but he could get them to the next great land mass to the West.

[Warpy]

5. His crew was a hell of a mix

including an Irishman or two. You had to be a little nuts to take on a voyage to find something you weren't 100% sure was there and the Irish qualify.

I'm not a bit surprised a Moor was his navigator.

[Jenoch]

12. Cristoforo Colombo, he was Italian.

[LeftyMom]

27. There's actually a significant amount of debate about that.

The details of his early life are somewhere between sketchy and non-existent. There's some suspicion that he was a Spanish converso, but of course he'd want to hide that at that time period.

[Jenoch]

32. Thanks for the information.

I did a little research and discovered he was likely a 'marrano' or a Jew who converted and it seems possible Columbus didn't really convert. The story I read also said his voyage was funded by three wealthy Jews and not by Queen Isabella.

[blackspade]

43. There is an excellent book about this time period...

Called Dogs of God by James Reston Jr that provides extensive political and social background to the voyages.

I highly recommend it.

[Warpy]

35. Nope.

Speculation now is that he was a Spaniard using an assumed name. He spoke and wrote very poor Italian but his Spanish was far better.

[Jenoch]

37. You wrote this an hour and 45 minutes

after I conceded and I provided more information than you did in your post?

[d_r]

21. I'm skeptical

about the Irish. But there is no doubt about the vikings.

[Warpy]

36. Brendan's story grew along with his thirst.

However it's generally accepted that he skirted the coast of Labrador and moved on south, getting as fat as the eastern tip of Long Island before heading back.

[blackspade]

44. Citation?

[GeorgeGist]

51. Whatever his heritage ...

Howard Zinn paints him as a greedy sociopath.

Given his legacy, that seems spot on to me.

[htuttle]

2. The pre-college 'history' class in my 1970's high school was called 'Western Civilization'

It told a tidy eurocentric narrative of how the torch of civilization was passed from Egypt, to Greece, to Rome, then finally to Europe. Europe then spread it to the rest of the world. I was able to get through 4 years of college without learning much more about history, save for tiny slices of it in philosophy and (western) literature classes.

The only way I've learned anything about the history of 4/5's of the rest of the planet was on my own by reading, watching various PBS shows, etc...

There are probably a hundred million Americans who had the same schooling, and most of them haven't bothered to learn anything aside from their careers in the years since.

We have a ways to go yet...

[1StrongBlackMan]

4. A "Torch" was passed alright ...

but it had little to do with civilization!

[htuttle]

11. Indeed.

[AlbertCat]

28. but it had little to do with civilization!

Oh please.....

[1StrongBlackMan]

34. Oh please what? ...

Does your concept of passing on the torch of civilization including genocide, enslaving the native population and the looting of natural resources?

Oh please ... explain yourself.

[AlbertCat]

42. genocide, enslaving the native population and the looting of natural resources?

Since many of the natives were doing that to each other already..... and so was every other civilization on the planet.... you may be on to something.

I certainly don't think the European invaders were all hunky dory, but your "nothing to do with civilization" sounded a bit overwrought, that's all.

[1StrongBlackMan]

48. The european concept of what constitutes " civilization ...

is/was foreign, and destructive, to all native peoples. For example, property ownership ... a purely European concept ... was wholly new to, both, Native Americans and Africans. It's introduction resulted in a shifting of the native values system.

[AlbertCat]

49. For example, property ownership ... a purely European concept

Uh....

I believe they had that in Ancient Egypt..... which as you know is in Africa.

Not to mention Asia.

So...it's not "Purely European"



It's these "noble savage" myths that irk me.

[csziggy]

13. My high school World History teacher taught that version in 1969-1970

While we were studying European history, I asked him what was happening in China. His response was that the people lived in caves and had rocks for tools.

Since I had read a good amount of history on my own - I was just trying to reconcile what I had read outside of class with what he was teaching in class - I knew that wasn't true. But it wasn't worth stirring things up. I just studied the textbook and limited my answers to the tests to what was in it. Since he took all his test questions from the questions at the end of the chapters in the text, it was an easy "A" but I learned next to nothing in the class.

[mountain grammy]

33. We had mostly 'white' history in the 60's too

but I was lucky to have a high school American history teacher who loved history and was sensitive to our racially and culturally diverse city school. Our president was murdered during our junior year and the Civil Rights Act was passed. We were living in a historical time and he made sure we knew how we got there.
That high school history class was the best class I ever had, including several college history courses. We learned about each other from each other.

[blackspade]

45. If by 'torch' they meant burn everything to the ground.....

Wipe out whole populations and steal their shit, then yes, they brought the torch of civilization to the rest of the world.

[Le Taz Hot]

6. I remember asking the question

in 6th Grade (1966), "Why did we have to kill the Indians?" The answer? "Because they weren't civilized." I kid you not. As long as I live I'll never forget that answer.

[unionthug777]

9. i have a t-shirt

that has "uncivilized" on the front. love to wear it !!!

[Cartoonist]

10. Wrong answer

It was because they weren't Christians. Those that converted were allowed to live.

The genocide of the two Americas can be laid at the feet of Christianity. Religion is the most evil thing mankind has ever invented. And no, I don't want to hear how much "good" religion does. I also don't want to hear, "Hitler made the trains run on time." No amount of good can forgive Christianity for its worldwide history of genocide.

[Jenoch]

14. You got the phrase wrong.

"Mussolini may have done many brutal and tyrannical things; he may have destroyed human freedom in Italy; he may have murdered and tortured citizens whose only crime was to oppose Mussolini; but 'one had to admit' one thing about the Dictator: he 'made the trains run on time."

It wasn't really true, but that's where the phrase came from.

[Cartoonist]

18. Marge Schott

Remember her? She owned a baseball team. She credited Adolph with the train thing, too. So have a lot of other people. I guess they couldn't find anything good Hitler did.

Added on edit: Actually, I don't think she used the train line, she said something like, "Hitler did some good things in the beginning." I should probably google things before I quote recklessly.

[Jenoch]

23. If I remember correctly,

Schott openly admired Hitler.

The fascists in Italy tried to get the support of the people by claiming to have fixed the railway system, even though most of the work was done before they came to power.

[tritsofme]

19. Would you make a post like that indicting Islam for 9/11?

and other acts of terrorism carried out in the name of that religion? Just curious.

[Cartoonist]

25. Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All religion corrupts the mind because it replaces reality with myth. Yes, there are good Muslims, but so what? The 9/11 terrorists weren't moved by sporting injustices or theater reviews. It was their holy book that instructed their actions, just like the Bible fuels the hatred in this country towards gays.

[d_r]

22. by allowed to live

you mean forced out of their homes and sent on the trail of tears

[Cartoonist]

30. Mission life

Here in California, the Spaniards established many missions. The natives who converted were allowed to stay. Those that did not were driven away or killed. Your point is correct. They were herded into concentration camps. They were called reservations back then.

[AlbertCat]

29. It was because they weren't Christians.

Even that's an excuse.... for grabbing LAND

[panader0]

7. Geronimo

[denbot]

24. I'm from the same clan

On my maternal side, Yaqui from my Dad's side.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

8. There is no history unless the Pale Face writes it.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. Nah. The victor or the government or the religion.

The Chinese have one version of their history with Japan; hence the ultranationalistic riots against Japanese.

The Japanese have another version of their history with China; hence their perplexed lack of understanding of Chinese riots.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

39. I like to think of Little Big Horn as a victory.

[DeSwiss]

16. K&R!

[unionthug777]

17. one of my favorites

[countryjake]

20. +1000 That's one of the best!

Thanks for finding it!

[Louisiana1976]

52. +1 million

[AlbertCat]

26. But you're still not from this continent.

Of course nobody is really "from" any continent but Africa.

There's no statute of limitations on ancestry.... so if you go back far enough...


(actually if you go back far enough, we're all fish)

[ChazII]

47. +100

Thank you for your comments.

[L0oniX]

31. So did the animal nations.

[Jamastiene]

38. That always irks me.

Columbus didn't "discover" America. There were people already here. I still don't understand why they try to claim he "discovered" America.

[Cha]

40. Bless their invaded hearts. :(

[malaise]

41. Because you see

[spanone]

46. yes they did, and we slaughtered a good deal of them.

[Exposethefrauds]

50. Where is their birth certificates?

Some days I am very ashamed at what our forefathers did to the native peoples in North America

We need to make it right.

[Louisiana1976]

53. Excellent thread. K&R