General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsauthoritarian, libertarian, right, left-- what quadrant of the Political Compass are you in?
One of the downward trends in DU lately has been the widespread abuse of the terms authoritarian and libertarian. These are both terms with long and honorable histories in published literature, referring to attitudes and policies about the legitimacy of government control of individual behavior. Google ngram allows one to search published literature for appearance of various terms and to compare their frequency over time. This ngram shows the use in books of authoritarian, libertarian, and the far less common use of hard left and Libertarian from 1908 through 2008 (the cutoff point for the database.)
Despite their long history in scholarly writing, both terms have been abused here as content-free epithets, even to the ridiculous point of alerts and hides for using the term authoritarian in a perfectly legitimate context. But IMO the more serious and systemic problem is the confusion about the term libertarian. Although it was hijacked by a rightwing extremist US political party a few decades ago, most Democratic voters support positions that are on the libertarian rather than the authoritarian end of the scale developed by the creators of The Political Compass. And no one outside the US is idiotic enough to use libertarian as synonymous with Libertarian thereby turning the vast majority of progressive voters worldwide into disciples of the worst novelist in history. (Worst both ethically and esthetically IMO.) The liberty championed by Ayn Rand and Rand Paul is that of the extreme right of the Political Compass.
The questionnaire here results in a score that places one in a quadrant that is either libertarian or authoritarian on the Y-axis and left or right in the economic sense on the X-axis. My own result is far down in the left-libertarian quadrant, as you can see here. I would not be surprised if 80% of active DUers, including those who abuse the term libertarian as if synonymous with a crank rightwing third party, are in fact left-libertarian in their views.
Take the test for yourselfmaybe Im mistaken. But it seems to me that a tremendous amount of poo is being flung based on semi-deliberate abuse of two words that must be restored to their proper meaning if we are to have a reasonable discussion of the major issues of the day.
The_Commonist
(2,518 posts)And I always end up pretty much exactly where your red dot is.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)Maybe closer to the libertarian axis depending on the specific questions asked.
I've always been unhappy that the term "libertarian" was highjacked by people who definitely aren't, with the help of our famous liberal media.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,224 posts)Libertarians as we've come to known them today are often obsessed about the "free market" and blast any sort of regulation on business as burdensome. That has nothing to do with a respect for human rights.
Concerns about a free and democratic society for all people seem to be lumped into the "libertarian" category. Personally, I eschew that label, simply because it reminds me of that annoying "libertarian" friend we all have on Facebook.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)used to hide more authoritarian and prohibitionist sentiments of those who want to control dialogues and lock in narratives.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)As it should.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)though neither term accomodates foreign policy well.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)and flung at others by people who lack a fundamental understanding of the terms.
The problem with the political compass is that it is a test and graph created by Libertarian party supporters to try and convince people that they are Libertarians.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)It looks like a variation of a quiz that was developed and used as a recruiting tool for the Libertarians, so it probably still skews that way.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,399 posts)If you checked by visiting the site, you'd see that it ranks most present-day governments as in the upper right (Right-Authoritarian) quadrant. eg http://politicalcompass.org/euchart http://politicalcompass.org/uselection2012
And if you look back at times when a thread has got significant numbers of DUers to report results, we do nearly all end up in the lower left quadrant, many at -8 or more on the left-right scale, eg
http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1261112
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100291514
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Your first link is about modern EU governments, not all present-day governments. Not sure what you think is so off-base about them being in the upper right quandrant.
Your second link shows that Barack Obama and Mitt Romney basically have identical positions.
And implying that the poll isn't skewed because almost all DUers end up in the same quadrant is a total logic fail.
This quiz only measures along two axes. If there are things that separate people that aren't accounted for in those questions, the poll is no more meaningful than a Cosmo quiz.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,399 posts)When the quadrant is not the one you expected the test to be biased towards, it's good evidence that the bias you expected isn't there. More international results:
Still not much evidence they claim the Libertarian Party views are commonly held, eh?
The quiz is not all-revealing, no. It doesn't claim to be, either. But your objection was that it is probably biased towards saying people agree with the Libertarians. I (and others, I see) are showing you your assumption is wrong.
I see you wished "they had defined the terms instead of merely using them":
This is almost exclusively an American response, overlooking the undoubtedly libertarian tradition of European anarcho-syndicalism. It was, after all, the important French anarchist thinker Proudhon who declared that property is theft.
On the other side of the Atlantic, the likes of Emma Goldman were identified as libertarians long before the term was adopted by some economic rightwingers. And what about the libertarian collectives of the mid-late 1800s and 1960s?
Americans like Noam Chomsky can claim the label 'libertarian socialist' with the same validity that Milton Friedman can be considered a 'libertarian capitalist'.
The assumption that economic deregulation inevitably delivers more social freedom is flawed. The welfare states of, for example, the Nordic region, abolished capital punishment decades ago and are at the forefront of progressive legislation for women, gays and ethnic minorities not to mention anti-censorship. Such established high-tax social democracies consistently score highest in the widely respected Freedom House annual survey on democratic rank eg Denmark ranks 2, Sweden 3 and Norway 7, while comparatively free markets such as the US, Singapore and China rate 15,74 and 121 respectively (this detailed checklist can be viewed at http://www.worldaudit.org/civillibs.htm).
Despite their higher taxes, the social democracies' degree of social freedoms would presumably be envied by genuine libertarians in more socially conservative countries.
Our point is that a regulated economy and a strong public sector are not necessarily authoritarian, and a deregulated economy with a minimal public sector is not necessarily socially libertarian.
Interestingly, many economic libertarians express to us their support for or indifference towards capital punishment; yet the execution of certain citizens is a far stronger assertion of state power than taxation. The death penalty is practised in all seriously authoritarian states. In Eastern Europe it was abolished with the fall of communism and adoption of democracy. The United States is the only western democracy where capital punishment is still practised.
18 Where are the right-wing social libertarians on the international chart?
It's a good question, and we'd like to include some, but we haven't found any among the biggest internationally-known players. It 's important to remember, though, that within each quadrant there are still very sizeable variables. Some figures on the right of the chart are only of a modest authoritarian tendency.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/faq
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)I still find it odd that Obama and Romney are so closely placed. It makes me think that the quiz isn't capturing some significant differences.
Johonny
(20,927 posts)That's where they assume they'd be not where they would actually place. Seeing posts like that sort of make you giggle. It is like the people that claim to determine the IQ of dead people. You can guess, estimate or whatever you want to call it where you think people are but those placements are where you "think" people are. It might be an educated guess but political leaders policies aren't in a vacuum. Obama the guy with no political responsibility responding to a n internet test could be vastly more liberal-conservative or whatever this test claims to measure than the dot someone kindly placed there on it for him.
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)To say that it gives a meaningful result is not to say that it is much more than a pop version of more serious treatments of the subject. There have been previous tests using the same two dimensions, perhaps more respectable scientifically but less familiar. I figured a lot of DUers had already taken the Political Compass which might therefore be the best one to mention here. But the authoritarian-libertarian issue is my main concern, not to promote the Political Compass.
Rational Wiki discusses various objections to it, and other related instruments. Libertarians in the US seem to dislike it a lot from what I see via Google. I think the cataloging of current and past political leaders according to their imagined responses, deduced from public statements, detracts from the seriousness of the website. But-- surely attracts attention and interest.
Response to winter is coming (Reply #4)
LeftishBrit This message was self-deleted by its author.
LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)This is of UK origin, and probably uses 'libertarian' in the old-fashioned British sense.
If anything, it could be said that it is slightly skewed to make most test-takers seem more left-wing in comparison with public figures than they actually are. I would say that it's probably true that most DU-ers are to the left of most current public figures. But I've seen the scores obtained by some very right-wing individuals (won't seek trouble by saying exactly where I saw them); and they mostly obtain scores that seem far more moderate than they actually are.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)In the US, "libertarian" these days seems to mean "a Republican who likes to smoke pot".
DreamGypsy
(2,252 posts)...so didn't know what to expect.
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.87
My personal red dot ended up one line down and one line to the right of the one shown in the post, so your conjecture hit a home run wrt me, carolina yellow dog.
However, I have to agree with winter is coming's comment that they site may be skewing their interpretation of the responses to lead to more libertarian results. I answered many of the questions with Strongly Agree/Disagree because they spoke to some of my core principles. Other questions included vague wording, open to interpretation, so the Agree/Disagree was ambiguous - so I just guessed at the intent.
Anyway, a fun early morning exercise. Out to walk the dogs now. Thanks for the post!
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)'laissez faire economics'. Nowadays, 'libertarian' or sometimes 'classical liberal' is sometimes used to imply that the two go together. Which they do not.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)The Democratic Party is traditionally the home of civil libertarians in the US. The posters here are (willfully?) ignorant when they use "libertarian" as a term of derision.
LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 3, 2016, 04:31 AM - Edit history (1)
I've done it a few times before and always get about -0.7 for each.
It should be pointed out that the scores given to public figures are the site-owners' estimates; none have taken the test, so far as I know.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)The purpose of DU is to support the Democratic Party. It is not to expound upon the values of Liberal/Progressive thought. It is not to discuss core principles. That is problem number one.
Many of those who bandy the words around (I am guilty of using authoritarian to describe the defenders of the indefensible NSA spying) usually use them to scare someone back into line regarding the Democratic Party position. We can support the 4th Amendment, until that support runs counter to supporting the Democratic Party, then we are a problem. Then we support the Libertarians who have been raised since birth to oppose President Obama.
The problem I have with that should be obvious after a couple thousand posts. It smacks of empty minds. Because to take that approach, that the Party must come first no matter what means adopting one of two philosophies. Option 1) My party is always right. This is so obviously juvenile that it doesn't deserve any serious consideration, but look again and see how often people defend the indefensible with variations of that juvenile argument.
Option 2) My party right, or wrong. That is infamous. That should be flushed down a toilet where it can join similar sentiments utterly rejected by history. But again, you will see arguments based upon these philosophical principles. We must oppose the GOP and stand for something asinine because if we don't the GOP wins. A perfect example of this is the arguments that if President Obama had not authorized the totally ineffective and unconstitutional NSA bulk collection programs then he would have been blamed if any attacks had happened for not doing enough. That is a perfect example of my party right or wrong.
So the labels of libertarian and other things are cudgels to shake at us to get us back in line where the party is always right. Or perhaps the Party right or wring. But party loyalty first and foremost.
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)That is, partisans who think "massive government surveillance is not dangerous because my party is in power and will not abuse it" simply can't think ahead 3 years to a possible Republican president and Congress. Or 30 years ahead to something far worse. It is very hard for me to imagine any Democrat thinking the NSA is a harmless instrument no matter what faction is in control of government.
If under future Republican governments there are gulags in our future for reeducation, I suspect the "NSA is dangerous and should be reigned in now" folks will be rubbing shoulders there with our "you silly Chicken Little, we have a fine and trustworthy Democratic president so STOP ATTACKING HIM" colleagues.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Not bad for an old gun-toter! I'm certainly in good company.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Spot-on observations there. And in far too many cases now, it's a tactic rather than a mistake. If you want to see some of the lowest of the low in propaganda, I nominate the Third Way posts here that attempt deliberately to confuse civil libertarian positions with sympathy for the Libertarian Party.
What utter hogwash.
If you value the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution, you are a civil libertarian. Period.
K&R
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)that is absolutely crucial to describing what is going on in contemporary debates, yet which interested parties want to stamp out as crazy hate speech instead of sober truth.
My own parallel experience was with the word "fundamentalist" outside Christian context. In the past due to my historical interests I participated in online discussion groups devoted to various "alternative religious movements" that were spinoffs of Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and New Age Christianity. In every case a dynamic emerged in which the more liberal adherents were ganged up on and bullied by the true believer types, who exemplified every description of fundamentalism. Scriptural literalists, strong sense of us vs. them, triumphalist beliefs about the future, dogmatic certainty, yadda yadda. But whenever their targets and victims within these groups, or outside observers like me, brought up the point that this destructive bullying met all the criteria of fundamentalism, the bullies would go into overdrive getting even more abusive while at the same time hollering the equivalent of "Ma, he called me a bad name,make him stop!" (The standard defense was since they weren't conservative Christians they could not possibly be fundamentalists.)
That is what I see with authoritarians freaking out at the word authoritarian.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Had this handy in my journal :
....................................................................
The Nolan chart is a gimmick to get suckers to self-identify as libertarian. That's pro-big-business, anti-labor, anti-regulation, anti-tax Goldwater libertarian, not the big-L-little-L figleaf pushed by Noam Chomsky, which is big business libertarianism by another name anyway:
David Nolan with a Nolan Chart at the 1996 Libertarian Party Convention in Washington, DC.
Nolan was a Nixon voting, Ann Rand loving Arizona also-ran who helped found the Libertarian party because the GOP wasn't right wing enough already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nolan_(libertarian)
Uncle Joe
(58,481 posts)Thanks for the thread, carolinayellowdog.
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)My dot is about as far left as possible. I'm proud of that actually.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)The Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -7.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.54
I am 2 spots from the extreme left, and 3 down towards liberty.
I am even further Left than Ghandi? What the?
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Economic Left/Right: -7.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
Three rows UP from the red dot in your post.
To me Libertarian should always be capitalized. That shows one is talking about RW type Randites, and not some other definition. And I would say the term has been totally hijacked by the RW.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.46
Romulox
(25,960 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)opiate69
(10,129 posts)Economic Left/Right: -9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.54
kfreed
(88 posts)You said it yourself:
"it was hijacked by a rightwing extremist US political party a few decades ago"
The Libertarian Party in the U.S. is hard right, including Ron and Rand Paul (Birchers of old rebranded):
http://thepoliticalspectator.com/tag/timothy-lahaye/
Don't be a tool: http://www.revleft.com/vb/found-libertarians-lying-t184312/index.html?t=184312
"THE KOCH BROTHERS FAKE LIBERTARIANISM: WAR, FORCED PREGNANCIES, AND HOMOPHOBIA"
By Lee Fang Jul 29 2014
http://www.vice.com/read/the-koch-brothers-fake-libertarianism-war-forced-pregnancies-and-homophobia-729
And stop trying to confuse the issue (there's nothing progressive about libertarianism):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)