Wanted: Proof that what happened in Ukraine actually constituted a "western sponsored coup."

[Tommy_Carcetti]

(Or even just a coup in general.)

Over the past couple of weeks, a fair handful of people here have insisted that the recent regime change in Ukraine was in fact a "coup." Most of those people have gone further and have claimed western--and even US--interests were the ones who were behind the coup. When I have pressed them for evidence, I have repeatedly heard about State Department official Victoria Nuland handing out cookies to Maidan protesters, about $5 billion in US aid to Ukraine (neglecting to mention that the figure covers a 20 year period), about Nuland discussing who she preferred to be in charge in Ukraine, about a website belonging to current Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenuk's organization listing several western partnerships, and a few other tidbits here and there.

While these indeed provide sufficient fodder for the conspiracy minded crowd, none of them--and I mean none of them--thus far actually show that what happened in February 2014 when Ukrainian president Victor Yanukovych fled the country and was replaced by an interim government until elections could be held later this month was actually a "coup" under the proper definition of the word.

So the question I posed to these people--and to which any have yet to answer me--is proof that what actually happened in Ukraine was a "coup", and specifically one that was sponsored by the West. If one considers the situation in February 2014, the flash point of the change in power appears to be the moment Yanukovych choose to flee Kyiv on February 21st. So we have to consider under what circumstances did Yanukovych leave that evening? Was he forced out at gun point? Was he kidnapped against his will?

Because if you look at Webster's definition of "Coup d'état", it clearly reads:

: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

First of all, no one can claim the Maidan protests were "a small group".



There were hundreds of thousands of them on the square. So whatever motivation those protests may have given Yanukovych to say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home," right then and there the definition of "coup" is inapplicable.

Secondly, one has to consider violence in the change of power. So was Yanukovych kidnapped, thrown in a sack, and taken away that night? Did someone stick a gun to his head and pull him away? The fact of the matter is, video from the Yanukovych residence doesn't seem to support that. In it, you can see members of Yanukovych's entourage casually packing up his valuable possessions and two helicopters flying away without any sort of opposition or sense of immediate urgency.

(The first video is rather long, but Yanukovych himself is seen at 13:45 in the video)

So if a characteristic of "coup" is that they are typically characterized by force, then no, again the situation does not fall into the proper usage of that word.

Who knows, maybe there are facts that I'm missing or that I'm not aware of that are a game changer. Maybe there is something one can point to that show definitively that Yanukovych did not voluntarily leave on his accord and willpower but was kidnapped and removed against his will. And maybe there's some evidence that shows that western agents were the ones doing the kidnapping.

And if someone can actually point me to this evidence, I will be the man and admit that that person is right and I was wrong.

But so far there's been nothing. Nada. Nilch.

(And the mere repetition of the word "coup" as it relates to what happened in Ukraine is not proof that a coup actually took place, contrary to what some might thing.)

So if I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong with real evidence from a reputable source (please, no Alex Jones type stuff). I'm waiting.

[go west young man]

1. Give it time....

the wheels are coming off.

Stephen Cohen now fully onboard for exposing the US role in Odessa massacre.

Stephen Cohen criticized the US government on Monday for its unwavering support of the Kiev government.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/179799/stephen-cohen-us-applauding-war-crimes-ukraine

https://

Excerpt from link:

Appearing on Democracy Now!, Cohen addressed this weekend’s hastily convened referendum on self-rule in Eastern Ukraine, calling it “no more or less legal than the government in Kiev,” which seized power in February. Cohen condemned the US response to attacks by Ukrainian troops in the Eastern cities of Mariupol and Odessa, where dozens of pro-Russian protesters were killed in a fire two weeks ago. “What did the US government say?” Cohen asked, “Did it say ‘we regret the loss of life?’ Did it say, ‘there should be an investigation?’ No. It said, ‘Kiev has the right to restore law and order.’” If a war crime was committed in Eastern Ukraine, warns Cohen, “we applauded it.”
Not only did we provide financial support for the Odessa massacre....we paid Ukrainian media who covered it up.

Link to the official US government website for USAID. That US government site officially states that USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS FREEDOM IN UKRAINE
For Immediate Release
Friday, May 2, 2014
USAID Press Office

http://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/may-2-2014-usaid-increases-support-media-and-press-freedom-ukraine

This support takes place on May 2, 2014- the very same day of the Odessa massacre.....now look at what the Kiev Post publishes on May 3,2014, the very next day...

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html

Headline at link reads:
Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
Print version
May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post

Now take a look at the way these people died....and attempt to figure out all these "accidents"...Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses in various states of death. http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. SQUIRREL!!!!!!!

?resize=300%2C300

My question was about the events in February 2014, not various narratives of the mob violence that occurred in Odessa earlier this month.

Please don't try to change the subject. It won't work.

[snooper2]

5. so you got nothing?

[go west young man]

9. The Squirrel....has done his home work.....

the evidence is plain to see....the squirrel also loves gathering nuts and putting them away....consider yourself "nuts" and winter is coming. You may want to pack something warm.

And here's the definition of Coup d'etat-from Merriam Websters - (French: “stroke of state”) Sudden overthrow, often violent, of an existing government by a group of conspirators. Coups are most common in countries with unstable governments and in countries with little experience of successful democracy. Their success depends on surprise and speed. Coups rarely alter a nation's fundamental social and economic policies or significantly redistribute power.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'état

Educate yourself.

[snooper2]

10. you do get everything backwards LOL, winter is coming :P

so when you say, go west young man, you really mean-

GO EAST! I get it now, you have been tricking everyone all this time LOL

[go west young man]

13. Yeah the masquerade took me years to pull off....

here's me in 2010.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8768651
"The Fucking Hippies Were Right!"

and here I go digging some Chomsky and "Pirates and Emperors" in 2006 http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x6233

Indoctrination takes ages ya know? Finally my master plan has come to fruition.....I will now climb aboard my private jet and whisk away to my secret lair hidden in the volcano on my private island in the Philippines.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. Don't forget to pack up all your valuable oil paintings. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. The Squirrel: The Hound's less imposing brother on Game of Thrones?

"Winter is coming....grab your nuts!"

Who are the group of conspirators that forced Victor Yanukovych to leave? What sort of violence did they use to force them out? Why did Yanukovych spend all day February 21st casually packing up all his valuables at his mansion before flying away?

[go west young man]

20. Well at this point it's plain to see he feared for his life..

Last edited Wed May 14, 2014, 11:32 AM - Edit history (1)

due to the onslaught of violence by Right Sector and Svoboda....the now proven links at my thread titled "Look at all those terrorists!!!" proves that Right Sector murdered over 46 people....the very next day we, the United States, gave the Ukrainian media money that as used by the Kiev Post for a coverup of those murders. The evidence is all laid out in the thread as you well know.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024944357

[Tommy_Carcetti]

22. He feared for his life so much he took all day packing up his oil paintings and antique furniture?

I mean, really?

[Adrahil]

12. Do you ever post anything that isn't blatantly anti-American?

I mean, you seem to spend ever waking moment SEETHING with hatred for this country.

[go west young man]

16. I'm not a nationalist...

I'm a human being first and foremost....one of the tenants of fascism is that it normally comes wrapped in a flag.....I am a citizen of the world....I am also a former US marine, 0341, 1st battalion, 6th marines, 2nd Mar div 85-88....did you serve or are you serving now?

The greatest patriot is the one who seeks the truth....for only the truth shall set us free and make the United States the country our past and present leadership profess it to be. What do you seek?

[Adrahil]

21. OK, then let's see you turn some of your "truth-seeking" on Putin's Russia.

THEN, I'll believe you're after the truth.

Also I don't give a shit that you were a Marine. Half the assholes in the Tea Party movement are ex-military.

But I was a DoD (Civil Service) R&D engineer for 20 years. Good enough for you?

[ronnie624]

28. Russia doesn't have military bases all over the world,

and we aren't responsible for the Russian government's actions, anyway. We are responsible for the actions of our own government, however, and when it foments violence and revolution, or supports dictatorships in other countries, you have a duty to speak out against it. Do your duty.

[Adrahil]

86. Our actions do not occur in a vacuum.

I don't object to holding our government accountable. I do object to "blame America first" types, and folks who seem to believe that if we just wish hard enough, everyone in the world will want peace.

[ronnie624]

98. The US spends more money on its military, than any other country on earth,

accounting for half of the entire planet's military expenditures. We have military bases in more than 150 countries, worldwide. Our government has deposed democracies and supported dictatorships throughout the world for decades, violating the sovereignty of many nations, and violating international law, as well as US law, in the process. We have engaged in fits of violence that have resulted in the deaths of millions of people and the destruction of many countries. Our government does this, in order to maintain strategic and economic dominance throughout the world. How can anyone have peace, under such circumstances?

I think what is happening in Ukraine, is a result of a US attempt to isolate Russia through political/economic coercion and covert operations, to eliminate that country's influence over an energy rich region, thereby increasing its own influence and power there. Unfortunately, in the process, we are supporting a regime, that most credible news sources in the world describe as "far right wing" or "fascist". I think that such actions are THE primary impediment to global cooperation for the purpose of mitigating the impending climate disaster known as global climate change.

As for wishing away the worlds problems, I'm not foolish enough to believe anything is going to change. There is simply too much ignorance, too much corruption and too many insufferable enablers in the world, who fear the change that is necessary to secure our civilization's future. But that won't stop me from advocating for a better world and hoping that things will change.

I don't know what you mean when you say "Our actions do not occur in a vacuum." That comment makes absolutely no sense to me in the current context. The "blame America first" comment sounds like you're channeling Jeane Kirkpatrick, in which case, you can simply 'talk to the hand'.

[Adrahil]

120. Like most issues, this one isn;t black and white.

Without a doubt, we HAVE been engaged, throughout our history, in foreign adventurism and Shenanigans. Some of which have resulted in many lived lost.

I DO NOT believe the Kyiv government can be fairly described as "far right wing" or "fascist." I think that is gross hyperbole. Are there elements of the far right there? Sure there is. But you'd have to be blind to not see things like Putin's long-held desire to recreate a Russia-centered political sphere. He has been blatantly attempting to leverage Russia's economic and military clout to force the former Soviet states back into the not-so-free orbit of Moscow. Add to this his open support for people like Bashir Assad, and the Iranians, and it is clear that Putin (a former KGB officer, I'll remind you) has every intention of reestablishing a Russian power block. That wouldn;t be so bad, if it didn't look like that power block will be based on solely on military clout, since Russia is really just an "also ran" economic power.

That's what I mean by "our actions don't occur in a vacuum." There is a context... a context of Putin-lead Russia longing for the glory days of the Soviet Empire.

The "blame America first" comment is directly directly at those who post any story, no matter how spurious the source, that might cast America in a bad light. When a person's who raison d'etre seems to be focused on an Anti-America viewpoint, I think it's legitimate to call that person on it.

I'll take people like GoWest seriously when I see them decrying a rise in Nationalist militarism (dare I say fascism) in Russia. Where they are seeking to out and out reject multiculturalism and tolerance as a matter of policy. If Obama were doing stuff like that, people like GoWest would lose their mind. But if Russia does it? Hell just yell "FASCIST" at Ukraine some more and ignore it.

[Adrahil]

87. Our actions do not occur in a vacuum.

I don't object to holding our government accountable. I do object to "blame America first" types, and folks who seem to believe that if we just wish hard enough, everyone in the world will want peace.

[go west young man]

32. Russia has plenty of problems....

which I have pointed out in other threads going back years....I look at issues through degrees of importance and their relation to what matters now....I am providing a counter argument to the accepted narrative that is being put forth by "our" government....because I understand and realize that real change takes place at home....we can't effect change on a culture that is rooted in a different historical mindset.....it's foolish to not understand this and then project military power in that direction.

The Unites States is better served by focusing inward and reducing our military budget.....thereby increasing money for social programs and education ( which is obviously needed as "You and I are having this debate) . I am against the goals of the 1%, the MIC, the Neocons, the Wall Street banisters, the spineless war hawks, the deceptive MSM and their corporate sponsors.

That is where my energy goes.....and with this debate and these revelations (as posted in my aforementioned thread) you have exposed to DU what you stand for.....your fight is a pathetic one. I truly feel sorry for the planet with people pushing ideas like you have.

[Adrahil]

90. I'll be glad to reduce the military budget.

I think we need to quit garrisoning the world, and focus on home. I disagree that all effort should be directed at social programs and education.

I favor development of renewable and green energy (so we aren't fighting Haliburtons wars), strong investments in basic science, and drastically increased NASA budget. Let's employ our technology professionals in achieving something worth remembering!

THAT'S what I stand for. I love my country and want it to prosper. I also am not an idiot, and can smell a rat. Putin is a rat. And rats need to be stopped before they spread their disease. That doesn't have to mean war. But it doesn't mean just rolling over and letting him have his way either.

Or worse, carry his water, as you do. Your "counter-narrative," which embraces any anti-American position no matter how preposterous, does precisely that.

And what's worse, you sometimes make good points, but it gets drowned out in the constant anti-American screeds.

[go west young man]

130. Your first half of your post actually seemed to make a little sense....

till you got to the "I'm not an idiot part".....then it was all downhill. I was green in 1990 after I read Al Gores first book and I am and always have been as progressive as they come. Judging from the level of time and vitriol you have spent with demagoguery in regards to myself....I would venture to guess that you are of the type that "isn't that thing" until "that thing is in your face and has become the new reality, which you are then and now forced to a accept".

I understand your desire to negate my points and push down my character.....it doesn't fit your mold of a true flag waving patriot. I told you before....I am not a nationalist.....I am a citizen of the world....a human being first and foremost....embrace your flag......feel free. The irony is that sometimes that which helps your country evolve comes from the most unlikely places.....and sometimes you have to go down a bit so you can come back up again and "Rise like the Phoenix". It's called hubris and humility. Something that is lacking in our national debate these days....and something that has shown it's head in Ukraine with the absolutely stupidest geo-political blunder of the new millennium...one that I feel is even more ridiculous than the lie of the Iraq War.

It hasn't ended in the deaths of a million people yet, but it had and has the potential to end in the deaths of all of us if things were to spiral out of control. In a nutshell....it was fucking stupid.....and myself and others pointed that out to many here long ago.......only to be labeled as Putinista's. Have a nice day and enjoy your delusion.

[NCTraveler]

36. "did you serve or are you serving now?"

I have read that somewhere before......

[go west young man]

56. My point is I have a right as an American

to state my mind and I put time in in the military to defend that 1st Amendment right.

[Adrahil]

88. Sure you do. And I have the right to call bullshit.

Just be glad you're here. Because in Putin's Russia, such dissent might land you in jail (See: Pussy Riot)

[go west young man]

131. The girls in the band went into a private church

and started playing their instruments at full volume while people were praying in attendance. Try doing that in the US and see what the judge gives you. Putin wasn't the judge who presided over their trial. Although the US media would tell us otherwise. They simply broke the law and paid the price.

On another note.....their music was shit. they definitely did not have the talent of a Sex Pistols or a Johnny Lydon. They did learn one thing though for sure though....how to exploit themselves and get rich via the school of Malcolm McLaren.

Talent wise they are more Toby Keith than Dixie Chicks.

[NCTraveler]

104. I have no clue what your military time has to do with your right to speak your mind.

The thought that it has anything to do with it in any way is very strange.

Thank you for your service. I truly mean that. It just has absolutely nothing to do with the argument you are making. There is a group of people out there that make the same argument you are making about your military experience. That group does not post here.

[okaawhatever]

57. I don't bellieve your claims. You are making a big mistake in your writing that someone with your

background wouldn't make. Do you know what that is?

[go west young man]

80. Soon you''ll be asking to see my birth certificate.

[Ikonoklast]

82. This confers no special rights or insight to you. None. Zero.

"...I am also a former US marine, 0341, 1st battalion, 6th marines, 2nd Mar div 85-88....did you serve or are you serving now? "

It's what people who got nuttin' pull out of their arse to show everbody and is used as mis-direction.


And is totally meaningless to the conversation.

[Duckhunter935]

103. wow 3 whole years

did you ETS or were you put out? What rank were you? I did 20 plus years, do I have any standing?

[Comrade Grumpy]

59. Maybe you could form a committee to get to the bottom of these unAmerican activities.

[TorchTheWitch]

71. after the flag waving

and singing Yankee Doodle Dandy in patriotic devotion while our country seethed with so much hatred for its own citizens that the Supreme Court took it upon themselves to throw out the Constitution and decide who our president was going to be without counting the votes, while the government farted around with their thumbs up their butts having nooooo idea in the world that AQ planned to fly planes into our buildings that killed thousands, they lied us into an illegal war racking up incredible debt that gets paid off by the 99% while the 1% got amazing tax breaks, they hiked up gas prices into quadruple digits for no other reason than their oil and gas cronies made a fortune, they illegally and super secretly spied on us citizens, let Wall Street rob us all blind while throwing people out of their homes yet the bankers got bonuses in triple digits per criminal that are still walking free, etc., etc., etc.

[m-lekktor]

135. yeah that un 'murkin accusation just creeps me the fuck out

on a progressive discussion board. what does criticism of govt behavior have to do with loving or hating america? anybody that knows the history of the US and its meddling in other countries, often by proxy, knows what the USA is capable of. people should read books and educate themselves. fuck this right wing you hate murka sickening american exceptionalism horseshit on a progressive discussion board.

[go west young man]

138. Sadly Du is no longer very progressive....

it used to be....now progressives are marginalized and shouted down much of the time.....like MTV or Ebay it has slid into that capitalist hole of non-relevance towards in regards to it's early reputation. I wish it wasn't so but it is.

[riqster]

2. Cue: "Jeopardy" theme music.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

6. "What are Victoria Nuland's cookies?"

[riqster]

23. I'll stick with Thin Mints.

[geek tragedy]

3. It's the anti-American/pro-Putin version

of Benghazi.

One surefire way of telling if someone is hardcore Putin-humper is if they are more outraged by Nuland passing out cookies than Russia sending in troops.

[okaawhatever]

7. +100 nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

81. It reminds me of September 11th conspiracy theorists.

Essentially, they want to claim they hold the majority view and it is your job to disprove it, and not the other way around.

Even though their theory requires leaps of logic and factual gaps, and the actual majority view is pretty evidence on its face.

It's frustrating.

[freshwest]

83. Agreed.

[Cha]

99. Boom!

[davidpdx]

101. ...

One surefire way of telling if someone is hardcore Putin-humpinger anti-gay is if they are more outraged by Nuland passing out cookies than Russia sending in troops and jailing and killing gay people.

Fixed

[geek tragedy]

123. That too. nt

[okaawhatever]

8. I'm not going to hold my breath for this Tommy. Unless you take RT or RU a a source I don't

think that proof will be forthcoming.
Let's also ask if Putin hates fascists and claims that is who is running the show in Kiev, why does he support their leadership in most other European countries. Germany, France, Hungary, Czech Republic, Greece...need I go on?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

11. I mean, the video evidence is right there. Right there.

On February 21st you have literally truck loads of Yanukovych's possessions--including things like valuable paintings and furniture--all throughout the day, and Yanukovych just casually walking in and out, no sense of urgency whatsoever.



Does this look like a guy who's being forced out violently against his own willpower?

[okaawhatever]

67. No, it's a guy running from failure. (something Putin did not approve of) As Matthew Henry said:

None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see.

[Orrex]

17. I blame Messer Chups

[TBF]

18. So you'd like us to provide classified CIA docs?

Yeah, that's gonna happen. All we can do is point to history and the facts that have come out AFTER attempted coups - like the Bay of Pigs debacle.

We could also site Russian sources but you'll automatically dismiss them. This is an exercise in futility.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Then if there's no proof, as you say, perhaps you might want to refrain from jumping to conclusions.

Because one might consider that reckless behavior.

[TBF]

26. It's not that there is no proof -

it is that it is classified or from sources "one" will not accept.

The US/EU pushed into Ukraine because they want Ukraine to join the EU. The EU has an interest in Ukraine because the gas pipeline goes through it and Russia can turn off the gas to Europe and increase prices.

It's always about the oil, the $$$, and containing countries who aren't doing what we want them to do.

This is not rocket science.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

27. One very simple question:

Was or was not Victor Yanukovych removed from office by force by a small group of conspirators?

Whether or not the US or EU saw advantages to a Ukraine lead by someone other than Yanukovych is secondary.

The use of the word "coup" implies a very specific concept, and I think way too many people are just bandying it about without knowing its meaning.

[TBF]

31. Yes he was and I'd love to know who is funding that group of Nazis -

we won't know for certain (ie with cites) until long after the fact I'm sure.

This is a good collection of what folks have been able to piece together about Osama bin Laden and they are basing it on activities that occurred years ago - http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/wtc/oblnus091401.html

It takes awhile for docs to be declassified and actually available under FOIA. That is the only way to really find out anything with certainty - other than snippets you may hear from retired military folks (and sometimes they know they were in a location but no idea really why they were there - as in old Viet Nam veteran stories ...).

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. So you have no evidence that shows Yanukovych was forcibly removed by a small group?

Nothing that you can point to in the here and now?

Then why is the word "coup" appropriate given the lack of demonstrable evidence?

[TBF]

41. FFS, this is inane.

It is ridiculous to expect average citizens to provide the CIA docs that you know are not available to us.

Maybe try selling your story on a conservative website - they'll likely believe you because they like to patriotically believe everything that is paraded in front of them. USA! USA!

No sale here.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

44. It's inane to speculate on CIA documents that you don't know to even exist.

If the proof is in the pudding, and you have no pudding, then where the hell's the proof?

[joshcryer]

93. Even if the CIA fostered something, the events were not a coup.

[TBF]

106. Mincing words. nt

[joshcryer]

108. That would be you.

"Coup" is clearly defined. What happened in Kiev could not be reasonably be considered a "coup" even if the CIA, NSA, USAID, whatever was involved.

Note: I happily endorse foreign NGOs. They are great. Countries, states, that hate them, tend to be tolitarian despots. Who gives a fuck what some kids are being paid to feed themselves and run something? It is totally irrelevant.

[former9thward]

24. What a silly OP.

As if people on DU have access to the inter-workings of the CIA, State Department, Oval Office and Defense Department. As if people on DU have access to the the leadership in Kiev. People use their educated common sense to connect dots. Your dots don't connect in the same way so you want "proof" within a few short weeks of the event. All anyone has is articles and reporting, which may or may not be accurate. As time goes on things will come out. Your attempt to shut down discussion in the meantime will fail.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. "Coup" is a very strong word.

So if you don't have the documents to prove it, and all demonstrable evidence (see the videos of Yanukovych packing up his valuable possessions and apparently leaving under his own freewill) seems to suggest against such a label, don't you think then smacking the label on the situation isn't just a wee bit reckless?

[former9thward]

29. Yanukovych was a corrupt crook.

The present leaders are corrupt crooks and the future leaders will be corrupt crooks. The record in that part of the world is not good. How immediate the threats to his safety were who knows? There may have been some physical distance between his mansion and the various crowds so I don't put too much stock in that. Whether you call it a 'coup' or not I think begs the point. He was a legitimate leader who was forced from power. I would not have expected him to wait around and see if the next guys were going to kill him or give him a pension.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

30. I'm not denying that what happened wasn't "regime change" or even a "revolution"...

.....but when you have persons who I'm told to believe are experts or reputable journalists/pundits using the word "coup" in such a haphazard manner, it strongly suggests an effort to frame the conversation in a way they so choose. And thus I'm inherently skeptical of such folks, and really you ought to be as well.

[go west young man]

35. Here's Stephen Cohen using it yesterday....

Stephen Cohen now fully onboard for exposing the US role in Odessa massacre.

Stephen Cohen criticized the US government on Monday for its unwavering support of the Kiev government.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/179799/stephen-cohen-us-applauding-war-crimes-ukraine

Excerpt from link:

Appearing on Democracy Now!, Cohen addressed this weekend’s hastily convened referendum on self-rule in Eastern Ukraine, calling it “no more or less legal than the government in Kiev,” which seized power in February. Cohen condemned the US response to attacks by Ukrainian troops in the Eastern cities of Mariupol and Odessa, where dozens of pro-Russian protesters were killed in a fire two weeks ago. “What did the US government say?” Cohen asked, “Did it say ‘we regret the loss of life?’ Did it say, ‘there should be an investigation?’ No. It said, ‘Kiev has the right to restore law and order.’” If a war crime was committed in Eastern Ukraine, warns Cohen, “we applauded it.”

Not only did we provide financial support for the Odessa massacre....we paid Ukrainian media who covered it up.

Link to the official US government website for USAID. That US government site officially states that USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS FREEDOM IN UKRAINE
For Immediate Release
Friday, May 2, 2014
USAID Press Office

http://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/may-2-2014-usaid-increases-support-media-and-press-freedom-ukraine

This support takes place on May 2, 2014- the very same day of the Odessa massacre.....now look at what the Kiev Post publishes on May 3,2014, the very next day...

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html

Headline at link reads:
Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
Print version
May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post

Now take a look at the way these people died....and attempt to figure out all these "accidents"...Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses in various states of death. http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. Well good for him. nt

[LittleBlue]

34. Right after you provide proof that Crimea's referendum

didn't represent the will of the majority in Crimea.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. But first let's talk about how that 'majority' came to be the majority, via ethnic cleansing...

In 1944, the USSR engaged in a mass, forced deportation of the Tatar majority that had been in Crimea for centuries. A couple hundred thousand men, women and children were given minutes to pack and forced at gunpoint onto boxcars for 'relocation' centers. There were not allowed back at all until the 80's. Russian 'settlers' were brought in to possess those lands and homes formerly owned by Tatars, creating over a few short decades this 'majority' that some claim has 'always been Russian'.
Of course the Tatars are Muslims, so most folks don't care that they were victims of a great crime against humanity.
But you were saying there is a majority, do proceed.

[LittleBlue]

52. England did the same thing in Ireland

By your argument, the ROI could invade Northern Ireland against the will of their own people and take it back.

It's irrelevant now, unless you intend to dispossess those people and reverse that cleansing by perpetuating your own cleansing.

By your own screwed up logic, the people who currently live in Crimea would never have a right to self-determinism because of what happened in 1944. We did the same to Native Americans, so by your logic we wouldn't have the right to rebel against Britain. Absurd.

[polly7]

64. Thank you for some common sense. nt.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. ........

http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#AvoidingtheQuestion

Avoiding the Question

The fallacy of avoiding the question is a type of fallacy of avoiding the issue that occurs when the issue is how to answer some question. The fallacy occurs when someone’s answer doesn’t really respond to the question asked.

Example:


Question: Would the Oakland Athletics be in first place if they were to win tomorrow’s game?

Answer: What makes you think they’ll ever win tomorrow’s game?
__________________________________________________________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_dodging

Form[edit]

Often the aim of dodging a question is to make it seem as though the question was fulfilled. The person who asked the question feeling satisfied with the answer, unaware that the question was not properly answered.

The form of a dodged question, this example being "Why are you here?", could be:
Refusing to answer ("No comment.&quot
Changing the subject ("Your shoelace is undone.&quot
Explaining redundant things to distract one's focus ("Well I arrived here 10 minutes ago and I decided that...&quot
Creating an excuse not to answer ("I'm feeling sick, I can't answer now.&quot
Repeating the question ("Why are you here?&quot
Answering the question with another question ("Why do you think I'm here?&quot
Answering things that weren't asked ("I'm in the corridor.&quot
Questioning the question ("Are you sure that's relevant?&quot
Challenging the question ("You assume I am here for a reason.&quot
Giving an answer in the wrong context ("Because I was born.&quot
____________________________________________________________________________________

For what it's worth, however, the question that you ask actually has been discussed here before, and there is definite documentation that both the turnout and results of the Crimean referendum did not match the figures released by the Russian government.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014797024#post69

http://translate.google.com/translate?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.president-sovet.ru/structure/gruppa_po_migratsionnoy_politike/materialy/problemy_zhiteley_kryma.php

[LittleBlue]

63. You're assuming my question is genuine and not

rhetorical in nature.

I'm not actually demanding proof

I'm pointing out your hypocrisy. You demand proof of any assertion that discredits the coup you've backed, but the vote in Crimea needs no proof of its illegitimacy, which to you is self-evident. You're willing to ignore exit polling showing an overwhelming desire by Crimeans to be part of Russia, yet eagerly accept a coup of one half of Ukraine against the half that elected him to power.

Absolutely hilarious on your part.

Carry on. I don't intend to reply any more, just having a good laugh at your hypocrisy.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

73. Of course you're not demanding proof. You clearly haven't provided any proof of your own assertions.

And instead you choose to deflect onto another matter.

Whether or not the vote in Crimea was legitimate or not is a completely different question from whether or not what happened in Kyiv in February 2014 was a coup, western-sponsored or otherwise.

For whatever reason, you felt it was worthwhile enough a question to respond to, but to not actually answer. I don't get it. You are a riddle as great as the Sphinx.

You can answer or you can decide not to. Or you can just deflect again. Whatever.

[Xolodno]

40. Simple....

....where is the letter of resignation by Yanukoyvich?

His impeachment was done illegally under the constitution at that time. After his impeachment, they then amended the Constitution. Which is like committing a crime as a dictator then pardoning yourself.

And him bailing out on the country is not a letter of resignation. Plus the lack of a head leader does not mean the country falls apart, institutions are in place to keep it running....even if it means a long drawn impeachment process....which, you may not need anyway. Ukraine, Poland and Russia did agree on an exit for Yanukoyavich which could be an implied resignation, but that was set for a specific date with elections.

But you have now, is a non-elected government making large and heavily consequential decisions that will impact them for generations....and the people are not represented.

Also, the majority are not saying the Maidan protests were a CIA bankrolled project. They were initially probably legit. But, you can't deny that the US government did not take advantage of the unrest and throw gasoline onto the fire. Victoria Nunland cherry picking the next leaders....(you probably prefer "advising&quot ...clearly shows the US government has its hands dirty here.

And likewise, Russia is probably playing off the fears and discontent of eastern Ukraine. But that doesn't mean the protests their are phony as some have insinuated.

Reality is, Ukraine has been in a constant tug of war between Poland and Russia for longer than the USA has existed. You can't have a pro west nation without oppressing the pro east and like wise, you can't have a pro east nation without oppressing the west. To Putin's credit, he has provided a solution similar to Finland. But the current unelected government (i.e. the oligarchs) don't seem to want that http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-agrees-talks-foes-missing-113228279.html

[Tommy_Carcetti]

43. Except that doesn't account for the lack of force or urgency surrounding his departure.

And that's a key component of a coup as the word is defined.

I will concede that the impeachment following Yanukovych's fleeing the country was rushed and had some technical issues with it. But the situation facing Ukraine on February 22, 2014 wasn't something that was really contemplated under the Ukrainian consititution, for better or worse. The president had fled the country (oddly enough, with oil paintings and antique furniture in hand). There was a power vacuum and the country was in an extremely vulnerable state. The country could simply not afford a long, drawn out impeachment process of a president who wasn't even in the country.

But again, coups typically involve violence and they are organized by small groups, not protests of hundreds of thousands of people.

What you see on the video was a man who cared more about his oil paintings than his country. So that should be considered his letter of resignation by default.

[Xolodno]

49. You contradicted yourself.

On one had you say:

"Except that doesn't account for the lack of force or urgency surrounding his departure."

and then say:

"But again, coups typically involve violence and they are organized by small groups, not protests of hundreds of thousands of people. "

Coup's don't have to involve violence, Fiji has those types of coups quite often.

And just because there were large protests, does not mean its not a coup. El Sisi of Egypt comes to mind. If the Tea Party managed to force Obama from office I would certainly call that a coup. When a leader is forced out through non legal means....its a coup. Not all coup's are bad either. But what Ukraine got in its place is probably worse.

And your point about him taking paintings and furniture as a letter of resignation is pretty pathetic. We don't know the full story yet. He may have been anticipating a coup (Ferdinand Marcos fleeing to the US with a lot of cash) or some Oligarch's told him to pack up and if he knows whats good for him, don't mention they were there.

I don't care what the video shows, without a letter of resignation or legal due process of his removal....its a coup of an elected leader that a significant portion of the country voted for.

And I don't buy the "Ukraine was vulnerable" argument either. There was still a Parliament that could have ran the institutions and even negotiate on behalf of the nation via a committee. Plus the military was still fully intact and more than capable of keeping order (a lot easier than telling them to fire upon your own citizens).

[Tommy_Carcetti]

50. "There was still a Parliament that could have ran the institutions and even negotiate on behalf..."

And that they did.

The interim government is comprised entirely of elected members of Parliament.

[Xolodno]

66. Ok then...

So on one hand you imply the installation of Yats and manner of impeachment was necessary because of the "vulnerable government"....

...and then you agree with me that the government could still maintain stability.

...and ignore everything else.


Appears to me, you created this thread for three reasons:

1. The sole purpose to scream "that it wasn't a coup"...when it obviously was.

2. The vast majority of the country wants to be westernized (and accept some serious austerity) when in reality around 40% (give or take a few) the population does not want to go this route (and I would argue more if they really knew the economic costs).

3. Claim falsely that the US government had no involvement (despite the infamous F the EU).

Well then...I think were done

[Tommy_Carcetti]

72. It wasn't "obviously" a coup just because you said so.

And putting aside your strawmanning me, why did I create this thread?

It was out of frustration of people like you who threw around the word "coup" without understanding what that word means, and yet insist on the circular logic that it was a coup because you think it was a coup, so therefore it was a in fact a coup. As well as certain posters who point to certain journalists/pundits who likewise haphazardly refer to what occurred as a "coup", and then demand I defer to their punditry and expertise despite the fact that they have (deliberately or not) misused the word as well.

Let's be clear about things. The idea that what happened in Ukraine was a western sponsored coup--as that word is defined and understood--is a conspiracy theory. If you want to put forward that conspiracy theory, have at it. But you better damn well have some evidence in favor of it. That is your burden of proof. It is not mine. So claiming it was "obviously" a coup just doesn't cut it.

Let me best illustrate your logical problem in Underpants Gnomes fashion:

The Western Sponsored Coup of Ukraine
Phase One: Nuland's Cookies/$5 billion/Yatesnyuk's Website/Fuck the EU/McCain's farts
Phase Two: ???????
Phase Three: Coup! (Duh....)

You see the problem here?

[pampango]

53. When Marcos fled the Philippines in 1986 he was not impeached after he left. He was replaced.

When Ben Ali fled Tunisia in 2011 he was not impeached after he left. He was replaced.

There are many other historical examples of presidents and prime ministers fleeing their country - effectively abdicating their office - without leaving a formal resignation letter. None of these leaders who felt the urge to flee abroad, gave much thought to what documentation they could provide to make the transition smoother for the successor government.

In general the street protests that lead up to a president's abrupt departure (take the money and run) create such tension and chaos that people are just glad the the president they hated is gone from their country and out of their lives. Perhaps there are those who would like for those people to insist that their legislatures follow through with a formal impeachment and conviction of the recently-departed leader but, in general, people in those countries seem to have other issues on their minds - like creating a more representative government with firmer control of police and security services that have been abusing people.

I would love it if each government that comes after a leader packs up and flees to another country without signing the right forms, would follow through with formal proceedings to show that "not only is he gone but he is no longer in office". Though that would take time and distract the legislature from what are undoubtedly pressing domestic problems, but it should be done. Alas, that does not always happen. Most often countries proceed under the principle of "he's gone so let's move on". The observance of the rule of law still has room to improve.

[Xolodno]

61. As I said in another post...

...not all coup's are bad. But in my view, this is a bad coup. A significant portion of the populations wishes are being ignored, period. These are the people who elected Yanukoyavich in the first place. This isn't a case where the vast majority of the nation wanted the guy gone. This is a nation divided and some here are advocating forcible compliance of the dissenting populace.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

75. "This isn't a case where the vast majority of the nation wanted the guy gone."

In December 2013, Yanukovych had a 20% approval rating. And that was before the Maidan protests got really bloody.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/poll-yanukovych-to-lose-to-opposition-candidates-in-second-round-of-presidential-elections-334239.html

Also note that since Yanukovych fled the country, very few people have been clamouring to get the guy back in power. Even the guys in Eastern Ukraine with the AK-47s and grenade launchers aren't asking for that. (Instead, they are demanding secession and annexation by Russia.)

[Xolodno]

77. You really do have the horse blinders on....

Our Congress has a worse approval rating...if they all vacated their offices and Obama or Bush (if this happened during his term) said they have left power and amended the Constitution and hand appointed a new Congress....pretty sure most would not approve despite having disdain.

Bad Approval Rating does not equal mandate to change government outside of elections.

But, why am I bothering with you...you're not interested in reason. In another post you mentioned that you didn't like Russian interference in Ukraine....I agree. But you should also be pissed about US interference...only, in your mind its not happening.

Ukraine has been involved with the tug of war between Poland/Other European Countries and Russia longer than the USA has existed. Large divides exist in Ukraine amongst its populace...get over it...they all don't want to be what others want them to.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

79. Russian interference in Ukraine is quite tangible. US interference not as much.

Consider that less than a week after Yanukovych high tailed it out of Ukraine with his oil paintings, armed men in green fatigues started appear in Crimea. Vladimir Putin at that time denied these were Russian troops. Then a very questionably and hastily run referendum was held in Crimea where the margin of victory was unusually high even taking into consideration the large amount of ethnic Russians living there. Crimea seceded and was annexed into.....Russia. And only after the dust settled did Putin decide to come clean and admit, yeah, those were Russian troops all along.

So think about it--territory belonging to Ukraine and recognized as Ukrainian by way of treaty (to which Russia was a signatory) was invaded by Russian troops who helped facilitate a sloppy plebiscite which purported to cede that land to Russia, land which Russia gladly accepted. That is an incredibly audacious amount of interference in Ukraine on Russia's part. And that's not even considering the same exact story which is replaying itself in Ukraine's eastern territory as we speak, albeit with a little more complication.

Meanwhile, the US interference is what? US aid money given to NGOs working in Ukraine over a 20 year period? Victoria Nuland handing out cookies on the Maidan? Victoria Nuland playing what amounts to fantasy football as to who she wanted to see in charge in Ukraine?

Whatever interests the US has taken in Ukraine for whatever the reasons they may be, they are not even remotely close to what Russia has done, which is to actually seize land belonging to Ukraine and call it for their own. There simply is no comparison between the two.

Anyways, you said the majority of Ukrainians supported Yanukovych prior to the change in power, and clearly they did not. So however you spin it, that's just not the case.

[Xolodno]

92. Wow....put words into my mouth will ya?

I did not say the majority of Ukrainians supported Yanu...I said

"...not all coup's are bad. But in my view, this is a bad coup. A significant portion of the populations wishes are being ignored, period. These are the people who elected Yanukoyavich in the first place. This isn't a case where the vast majority of the nation wanted the guy gone. This is a nation divided and some here are advocating forcible compliance of the dissenting populace. "

If your going to misquote me and project..try harder next time.

And your posts defeats itself. So a little interference is ok so long its the US?

And you miss the obvious. How is it Russia was capable and ready so fast for this? Remember Georgia? Russia obviously knew what was about to go down. They obviously knew what was about to go down in Ukraine.

As for this....it really made me laugh....

"Whatever interests the US has taken in Ukraine for whatever the reasons they may be, they are not even remotely close to what Russia has done, which is to actually seize land belonging to Ukraine and call it for their own. There simply is no comparison between the two. "

Yes...making a client state out of Ukraine (like they did Iraq) and giving them Greek style austerity there by sentencing them and a couple of generations to poverty while the oligarchs and US "interests" rape their valuable natural resources in IMF payments is so much better than taking a peninsula they only got 60 years ago as a "gift" from Krushev.

If you are trying to make a case for the Ukrainian people....your doing a piss poor job. You should be concerned about US interests just as much as Russia's interest. And if your only concern is about Crimea.....when the spectre of worse economic consequences is possible....your intentions are very suspect.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

119. So the US is leading an Iraq-style invasion of Ukraine? What?

"Yes...making a client state out of Ukraine (like they did Iraq) and giving them Greek style austerity there by sentencing them and a couple of generations to poverty while the oligarchs and US "interests" rape their valuable natural resources in IMF payments is so much better than taking a peninsula they only got 60 years ago as a "gift" from Krushev."

I know that might not be what you intended to say--at least I hope you aren't saying that--but the idea that the US is so intertwined and involved in Ukraine, making it a puppet state, is just ridiculous. You are highly exaggerating the extent to which the US is involved in Ukraine, which is complete demeaning to Ukrainians by making them look like they can't do anything without the US moving first. I mean, the very idea that the regime change didn't result from massive protests by Ukrainians themselves but instead was some secretive, undefined, unexplained western-led "coup" is incredibly patronizing of Ukrainians.

And no, I don't think Putin's going to stop just at Crimea. I mean, think about this quote:


"I would like to remind you that this is Novorossiya - the term used back in the tsarist epoch. Kharkiv, Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson, Odessa were not part of Ukraine in the tsarist epoch. These are the territories which were turned over to Ukraine by the former Soviet government in the 1920s. God knows what they did that for.

All this dates back to the victories won by tsarist Russia in notorious wars in the epoch of Catherine the Great and Prince Potyomkin with the center in Novorossiysk; hence the name- Novorossiya. Then for different reasons these territories were lost, but the people remained. "

Vladimir V. Putin, April 17, 2014.

Now, why the hell would he just throw that into one of his speeches? Can you explain?

[go west young man]

76. Well stated...

what do these posters think "that the miners and industrial workers of East Ukraine are just gonna go back to those jobs and mines and work to give taxes to people that will kill and supress them if they don't? The US is in some kind of delusional state....same as the reaction to Crimea....they are still pushing a chosen narrative that has fallen apart.....a narrative that is on video for everyone to see. The breakaway of East Ukraine is a done deal. Unless of course the US wants to support neo-nazi's sending tanks against all these people.....I mean "terrorists".

It's going to be interesting to see how the US tries to rationalize what comes next.

[Xolodno]

78. Thanks...

...the Neo Nazi's are the minority...unfortunately, just better organized. I firmly believe that the protests did make up a good cross section. Just like the Egyptian protests that ousted Mubarak or the Russian Revolution that got rid of the Tsar.

...but the "opportunist" were the ones that got control.

Of course some are buying the propaganda hook line and sinker.

[go west young man]

89. I'm of a slightly different school of thought on that one....

I watched the level of violence early on and said to my wife that for protesters they seemed too aggressively violent and organized. I have read in detail how they conducted their assaults against he police lines and the techniques they employed. I have also read individual Berkut police transcribed interviews.....the Right Sector had been training for it for some time according to the police. The question now is....did the US government finance that training?

[Xolodno]

97. Yes it did have the mark of good organization.

...even knowing not to plunder the government buildings. And had plenty of resources. Trained police in riot gear were at a stand still with them.

Yanu was unpopular and that could have tapped....all you need is the organization to provide the logistics.

[go west young man]

133. And the financing and training....

that's what I'm getting at....Did the US provide that in Poland as I have read from others here at DU? If so, then we paid for the deaths of those innocent people in Odessa.

[joshcryer]

94. Impeachments are political processes.

The ad hoc manner in which the impeachment happened was perfectly in line with the constitution.

If he had not fled he knew he likely would've been arrested, like Mubarak, and then would've been forced to face jail time.

Had Mubarak fled and "not resigned" and then was impeached, would, by your logic, the impeachment have been illegal?

[pampango]

42. On 2/20 parliament voted 236-2 to condemn the violence, ban the use of weapons against protesters,

236 deputies out of 238 present (...mostly from the opposition and some representatives of the Yanukovich's Party of Regions) voted (first reading) to condemn the recent violence, ban the use of weapons against protesters, withdraw troops and the police deployed against them.

The next day, February 21

A compromise deal was agreed to and signed by both opposition leaders and the president after overnight negotiations. The deal agreed to: a restoration of the Constitution as it was between 2004 and 2010; constitutional reform to be completed by September; early presidential elections no later than December 2014; an investigation into the violence conducted under joint monitoring of the authorities, opposition, and the Council of Europe; a veto on imposing a state of emergency; amnesty for protesters arrested since 17 February; surrendering of public buildings occupied by protesters; the forfeiture of illegal weapons; "new electoral laws" to be passed and the formation of a new Central Election Commission.

Parliament voted unanimously, 386–0, to return to the 2004 constitution, and then 332–0 in a vote to suspend acting interior minister Vitaliy Zakharchenko, including 54 from the Party of Regions and 32 Communists. A bill was introduced in parliament on the impeachment of president Yanukovych, filed by Mykola Rudkovsky.

By late afternoon, hundreds of riot police officers guarding the presidential compound and nearby government buildings had vanished. Polish foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski described the withdrawal of forces as "astonishing," noting it was not part of the agreement.

Oleksandr Turchynov stated that in fact most of the ministers had disappeared as well as Interior Minister Vitaly Zakharchenko (who is reported to have fled to Belarus) and President Viktor Yanukovych, "The only one legitimate body left is the Verkhovna Rada – so we are here to vote today. The major tasks for today are: to vote for the new speaker, prime minister and interior minister." In the Verkhovna Rada, deputies voted 328:0 to set the Presidential election date to 25 May. The action did not follow the impeachment process as specified by the Constitution of Ukraine; instead, the Verkhovna Rada declared that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and cited "circumstances of extreme urgency" as the reason for early elections. Oleksandr Turchynov was then voted by parliament Chairman of the Ukrainian Parliament and acting President and Prime Minister of Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution#Opposition_leaders_meeting_with_President_Yanukovych

Does not sound like a coup, does it? Several parliament members of Yanukovich's party defected to the opposition resulting in a parliamentary majority opposing Yanukovich and his tactics against the protesters.

Nothing in the February 21 agreement signed by Yanukovich and representatives of the protesters required him to resign his office or to order security forces not to protect government buildings. In fact it allowed him to stay in office until December 2014 when there would be elections, in which he presumably might be reelected. He was still the Commander-in-Chief and was in full charge of the security forces and the military.

Perhaps the parliament should have continued with impeachment proceedings in abstentia (since Yanukovich obviously was not coming back from Russia for the proceedings). I suppose that most people thought it a waste of time to impeach someone who had abandoned his office already and left the country. The US did not even follow through with an impeachment vote against Nixon after he left office voluntarily.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

45. The video showed a very calm and orderly packing process for Yanukovych on February 21st.

Several truckloads were filled, valuable oil paintings were wrapped up, antique furniture was loaded up, Yanukovych was seen casually milling around. Clearly the man wasn't concerned about having to escape within an inch of his life, nor was he doing so under immediate duress.

[nilesobek]

46. I flat out don't need "proof" that will

satisfy your rhetoric and crusade. All I need is to read the tea leaves, read between the lines and detect the filthy stench of the deep state machine going after another victim and a single neo-con fingerprint.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

47. Well, that's very scientific of you. nt

[nilesobek]

48. I acknowledge that criticism and find

your point totally valid, but, aren't you doing the same thing Tommy? Yankuvovich being calm about packing up his stuff is a scientific point? What was he to do? Have a total freakout on camera? Have a videotaped existential crisis? Should he abandon his stuff and run up into the hills unarmed?

I find this kind of science pretty subjective.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

51. Again, the nature of the coup is typically violent.

If the leader isn't being kidnapped, assassinated, held at gun point, etc., then he's in fear of imminent danger of harm coming to him by the organizers of the coup.

And a guy who stands around all day watching moving men load up his most precious oil paintings doesn't make it look like he was in fear of anyone coming after him.

[nilesobek]

55. Point taken. He doesn't look particularly alarmed.

My problem with all this is that it doesn't help the average 2-job working Americans like me. I've asked some people about the Ukraine and not only are they unaware of where the Ukraine is even located on a map, they just don't care.

Forgive me for asking, do you have a special interest in the Ukraine?

Is there a real reason for us to be involved at all?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

60. In the interest of full disclosure, yeah I do have a special interest.

I'm second generation Ukrainian-American (my grandparents fled with my infant mother at the height of World War II when Stalin and Hitler were at their bloodiest and most brutal fighting over the place), and I have multiple cousins still living there.

I don't support U.S. military intervention in Ukraine and never have. But I do support strong non-military isolation methods against Russian revanchism and meddling in Ukrainian affairs. Unfortunately, there's much in the history books regarding that.

So yeah, I do have to say I take the crisis a bit personally.

[nilesobek]

65. I feel for you and sympathize.

I appreciate your honesty. You certainly have a legitimate interest.

In all probability, you could be right about everything.

Its just that guys like me struggling so hard to stay above water cannot abide more shenanigans overseas. We are all tapped out, played out, tired of the press rhetoric and its inevitable conclusions.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

68. Thank you. nt

[Turbineguy]

54. Well, it might explain

why pro-Russian groups are so anxious to secede sections of Ukraine before the referendum later this month.

[Comrade Grumpy]

58. It was not the way the government was supposed to be changed. There were rules.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

62. Except leaders typically don't pack up their oil paintings and leave the country, either.

The winds changed, so to speak, the moment Victor Yanukovych decided to get onto those helicopters and leave for Russia. That was the change in power, right there. And it was entirely voluntary on his part.

[okaawhatever]

69. Part of the problem was the Constitution was basically designed to not allow impeachment to

happen. Also, the Constitutional Court is little more than an rubber stamp for the President. (one of the corrupt things found in the papers dumped into the river when Yanukovych blew town was proof of money transfer to a judge on the CC. Supposedly it was a "loan" to for a second home by President Yanukovych).

[joshcryer]

96. The "ad hoc" part could mean anything.

It's a direct translation. They could've decided to impeach walking down the hallways of Parliament.

[geek tragedy]

70. Presidents aren't supposed to use the army to mow down

protestors, not are they supposed to try to rule from the territory of a foreign power.

Compared to those major developments, it's rather absurd to complain about technical failures to follow protocol.

[KoKo]

85. Laws, really. And Putin is to blame for those Ukrainian Protestors/Insurgents/Freedom Fighters

(whichever the term our State Department uses for those who don't follow laws and overthrow their governments these days) not following the laws of how the UkrainianGovernment was organized?

If "Occupy Wall Street" had managed to take over the NYC Mayor's Mansion demanding that Bloomberg change the governance of NYCity, and fire Police Commissioner Ray Kelly there would have been another name attached to them...probably "Anti-Government Activists, Anti-Government Insurgents, Mob-Like Militant Groups, etc.

Think of what might have happened. If they had succeeded but (with Bloomberg and Kelly getting spirited out of town) and taken over the NYC Council installing some of their own in a shake up...would Cuomo have recognized the NYC Governing Council as Legitimate? What would Obama have done?

[go west young man]

91. Here's a good article on Putin's actions recently....

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/12/u-s-media-ignores-putins-peace-plan/
Excerpt:

The fact is, he’s still pushing for peace, which is not only beneficial for Moscow, but Europe and Ukraine as well. The only one that doesn’t benefit from peace is Washington, which is why the media is suppressing information that promotes de-escalation. It’s because Washington wants a war. War is the vehicle for breaking up the Russian Federation into tiny statelets that pose no threat to US military bases spread throughout Asia. War is the means by which Washington can make its pivot, surround China, and control its future growth. War paves the way for establishing US outposts in Ukraine and subverting greater economic integration between Russia and Europe. War is US policy because war advances US interests. Period.

Washington cannot achieve its strategic or economic objectives without a confrontation. That’s why the present situation so worrisome, because –judging by the scalding rhetoric emerging from the White House, the US State Department, and all the major media– Obama is going to continue to provoke Moscow until he gets the reaction he wants. If 40 dead in Odessa doesn’t do the trick, then the next provocation will be 400, or 4,000, or 400,000. Whatever it takes. It doesn’t matter. As Madeleine Albright noted some time ago when she was asked if the sanctions on Iraq were worth the half million lives they cost, she answered without the slightest hesitation, “We think the price is worth it.”

[joshcryer]

95. The rules were followed.

[brooklynite]

105. Just like Richard Nixon wasn't supposed to leave office, right?

I mean, he was elected. What right did protesters and the Congress has to force him to resign?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

110. And we all knew that Gerald Ford was illegitimate because he was unelected. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

74. Related Washington Post article: What did Yanukovych take with him as he fled his mansion?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/12/what-did-yanukovych-take-with-him-as-he-fled-his-mansion-paintings-guns-and-a-small-dog-according-to-new-video/

Snip:

What's remarkable about these videos is that they appear to show the sheer amount of stuff Yanukovych had: He spent three days clearing stuff out of his home and people were still able to find all sorts of things there (including, apparently, a large number of secret documents thrown into a lake).

It also brings into question the argument Yanukovych made in a news conference in Rostov-on-Don, Russia, on Feb. 28, where the ousted president said he had not fled Ukraine, but only left after someone fired at his car, and whether he can actually see himself returning.
___________________________________________________________________________

[KoKo]

84. You Insult what you call a "fair handful of people" then want them to prove something

to you about your pre-conceived position?

You Say: (bolding is mine)

"Over the past couple of weeks, a fair handful of people here have insisted that the recent regime change in Ukraine was in fact a "coup."

snip--

"While these indeed provide sufficient fodder for the conspiracy minded crowd, none of them--and I mean none of them--thus far actually show that what happened in February 2014 when Ukrainian president Victor Yanukovych fled the country and was replaced by an interim government until elections could be held later this month was actually a "coup" under the proper definition of the word."

You then further insult with adding:

"So if I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong with real evidence from a reputable source (please, no Alex Jones type stuff). I'm waiting. "

-----

I'm sorry Tommy...there's no chance of you seeing the other side or another side of this when you resort to insulting those you want to "Prove" something to you. Why should anyone bother more that they already have in explaining the information they have that they trust and you are dug into your own point of view arguing over "Coup or Junta, Putsch" or "Take Over by Opposition Militants" Whichever term one uses the Government of Ukraine was Overtaken and the Elected Official, Yanukovych was deposed (having to flee for his life) and Parliament lost members (who also fled) as others were installed by an "Unelected Take Over Mob."

So....that's what it is. It's not the terminology of what happened to the Ukrainian Government ...but the results of the actions of those who overthrew the Government. Who was behind those who took part in the overthrow and take over is the ongoing question and what is more important to discuss.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

113. But the "western sponsored coup" narrative is by its very nature a conspiracy theory.

And any theory needs proof. That's just how those things work. The generally accepted public narrative and the conspiracy theory don't get to immediately exist on equal footing...one needs to prove the conspiracy theory in hopes that it will become the generally accepted public narrative.

I mean, look at September 11th. Do we assume that theories that the World Trade Center was brought down by ground explosives planted by the US government (i.e. the conspiracy theory and alternate narrative) should be placed on equal ground as the argument that the World Trade Center was brought down by airplanes hijacked by followers of Osama Bin Laden (i.e. the narrative that the general public overwhelmingly believes to be true)? Certainly not. If you are going to claim that facts aren't really as what people think they saw, then you better damn well have some sort of reliable proof to back it up.

And I don't agree with you that the terminology of what happened in Ukraine are irrelevant. "Coup" carries a very specific meaning and implication to it. We can all certainly agree that what Ukraine went through was a regime change. You can argue that it would qualify as a revolution (and the hundreds of thousands on Maidan does show a high degree of popular support amongst Ukrainians). But "coup" is another story altogether. As the word is properly defined, it suggests a small group of conspirators who use force, violence or duress to remove the leader of a country from power. And at least from my assessment of the situation, what happened in Ukraine did not fit into that narrow and specific definition.

And further more, to allege that this was not just a coup, but a western sponsored one, requires even further proof. And while people have repeated ad naseum certain curiosities--Nuland's cookies, Nuland's phone call, Yatsenyuk's website--none of those items are directly relevant to the actual mechanics of the purported western-sponsored coup. How exactly did this coup happen? That's what I really want to know.

[KoKo]

117. Well...you could do some background reading by reporters familiar with the situation

Last edited Thu May 15, 2014, 12:27 PM - Edit history (1)

from news sources all over the world. Surely you can even find a counter that the USA has had no involvement with Ukraine at all. That the 5 billion that our DOS says we've already given Ukraine only meant that DOS happened to have extra money lying around so Ukraine was the logical place to give that money. You could also Google for the Nuland Tape and listen to the whole thing. She just happened to be in Ukraine on a visit (when protesters were on the street) and when taking a walk saw all these people and decided they might be hungry and in need of some cheer. Definitely in the "Job Description" for high ranking US State Department employee. No bias there.

Then there's Sen. John McCain who passed through Ukraine a bit earlier who just happened to be at a meeting with Neo-Nazi sympathizers and was happy to do a photo op with them. I realize this is just happenstance for you. That both of them just happened to be in Ukraine giving cookies and doing photo ops with the Protesters who overthrew the Government.

But, you know all this. You've watched the videos, seen the photos and read the articles from reputable news sources posted here on DU. Yet you continue to insult the intelligence of others in every engagement with what you call "the more than a handful of DU'ers." whose opinions you don't agree with.

As you just cheekily replied:

"And furthermore, to allege that this was not just a coup, but a western sponsored one, requires even further proof. And while people have repeated ad naseum certain curiosities--Nuland's cookies, Nuland's phone call, Yatsenyuk's website--none of those items are directly relevant to the actual mechanics of the purported western-sponsored coup. How exactly did this coup happen? That's what I really want to know.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

118. I've done reading of many materials from many different sources.

And I've seen stuff by some people who assert the things you assert and claim them to be evidence of a greater, western-sponsored coup d'état. I've heard the Nuland tapes, I've seen the videos.

But just because someone prints something in a paper or on a website doesn't mean I'm obligated to believe it. And yes, you could be a storied investigative journalist from the 1980s, but if what you are printing in 2014 is nothing but blatant, in your face propagandized and manipulative half-truths, I don't care who you are.

And nothing--nothing--I've read by anyone (nor nothing I've seen or watched) has ever explained how this "coup" took place. There's never been anything showing how exactly Yanukovych was forcibly removed from office, or who exactly the group of conspirators supposedly leading the effort to forcibly remove him actually were. Nothing of the sort.

All I've heard are random tidbits here and there of various curiosities which shed no light whatsoever as to the events of February 21-22, 2014.

The only thing I've seen that explains anything about Victor Yanukovych on February 21-22, 2014 were the surveillance tapes from his own house, which shows a huge trove of valuable possessions being loaded up as he casually watches, and then he gets into his own helicopters and flies away. Which pretty much convinces me that there was no one forcing him to leave; he just up and left. And while there was a regime change afterwards, by its very definition this was not a coup.

[dionysus]

124. it's like you're talking to a brick wall, isn't it?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

125. I can't help but think of Brawndo.

Victoria Nuland's Got What Ukrainians Crave! She has cookies!

[Cha]

100. Thank you for this OP, Tommy. I've read about your personal history

with Ukraine before(sorry your family had to flee). It's been really helpful to counter-act all the propaganda from the anti-American pro-putin faction.

I don't know if you've seen this.. it's an interesting history of Ukraine..

May 11, 2014

The Battle in Ukraine Means Everything

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117692/fascism

[davidpdx]

102. I'll second what Cha said

I appreciate your perspective as a Ukrainian-American. I've never really met a person with your background, but I have heard my hometown of Portland has a good size of Ukrainian immigrants.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

114. Thanks.

[TBF]

107. "the propaganda from the anti-American pro-putin faction"

If it were only so cut and dried - but it's not. More of the "you're either for us or against us" nonsense. I was really hoping that would be left behind with
Bush.

I wonder why it has continued.

That's a rhetorical question.

[joshcryer]

109. You enter that crowd the instant you claim "coup."

Really, you do. And it is unfortunate you of all posters have fallen for such pathetic rhetoric.

[TBF]

112. Is that your anarchist perspective?

Because it sure doesn't sound like support for people on the street in Kiev.

I think it's quite clear that I am not on the oligarch express. Anyone making that assumption doesn't know me very well.

[joshcryer]

127. The people in Kiev got 90% of what they wanted.

Anyone supporting the separatists supports the oligarchs. Anyone decrying the lawful impeachment of the president supports the oligarchs. Anyone wanting secession supports the oligarchs.

This is the consistent anarchist perspective. Yes, there are other "anarchists" who support Putin, but they have no consistent rational justification. They simply do so because it is anti-American.

Too many pathetic people think anti-America is a badge of honor and intellect. It's not.

The EU/USA is progressing, Russia is regressing. At this point in time Russia is more propagandistic and repressive than the USSR. I am not exaggerating. I wish I was.

[TBF]

128. I'm not a fan of Putin -

I can see what we are dealing with there. But it is also painfully obvious that capitalists are interested in the resources of Ukraine rather than the people. Also it is a large area and while the west may welcome the EU it is not so clear that the east and south follow that path. It's not just Ukraine - I would say the same thing about Venezuela. And I would not be so hard-line against the imperialism if they actually helped people in the process. Instead the profit for the multinationals is always the focus. The only progression is in the minds of the 1% - they are pilaging along as they always do.

[joshcryer]

129. Capitalists are on both sides.

I amuses me that people think the east is some paragon of communism, that joining Russia will assure those goals, etc.

Hell, what was shocking to some is the fact that the Miners Union is pro-Maidan! These illusions that there is some sort of anti-US consensus doesn't match reality.

Finally, Russian actions in Ukraine are imperialist, and in that I agree. The question is which imperialists are better?

[TBF]

132. No I didn't mean to suggest Russia is communist -

not at all. Not a fan of Putin. I don't think the question is "which imperialists are better". I would rather pose the question "Why imperialism?" What is it doing for the people of Ukraine? And I mean all the people - not just the top 1-5% who get a cut of the resources.

[joshcryer]

134. The workers are anti-Kremlin.

They know what it will bring to them.

MARIUPOL, Ukraine — Thousands of steelworkers fanned out on Thursday through the city of Mariupol, establishing control over the streets and banishing the pro-Kremlin militants who until recently had seemed to be consolidating their grip on power, dealing a setback to Russia and possibly reversing the momentum in eastern Ukraine.

By late Thursday, miners and steelworkers had deployed in at least five cities, including the regional capital, Donetsk. They had not, however, become the dominant force there that they were in Mariupol, the region’s second-largest city and the site last week of a bloody confrontation between Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian militants.

While it was still far too early to say the tide had turned in eastern Ukraine, the day’s events were a blow to separatists who recently seized control here and in a dozen or so other cities and who held a referendum on independence on Sunday. Backed by the Russian propaganda machine and by 40,000 Russian troops just over the border, their grip on power seemed to be tightening every day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html

I think the May 25 elections will be decisive. Putin's leveraging for far too long is not something that the union men want to have to deal with in the future, especially if it comes under the auspices of Russian mafia-style corruption. Which, btw, we've seen repeatedly when it comes to taking pro-Maidan people off the streets and beating them to a pulp. In some cases cutting off body parts and leaving them to die in the middle of the wilderness.

[TBF]

136. Again one-sided -

Russia gives the other side of the tale but folks in GD do not want to read RT (for the most part).

Do I personally believe the south and east of Ukraine want the EU/US austerity model and Nazi thugs in charge? No. But rank and file dems seem to be fine with the official story and all I can say is that I hope it helps us in the fall because I have no interest in seeing members of the American Taliban elected into office. I view them with as much disdain as Putin so I'm willing to let it go in this venue.

[Cha]

121. Yeah, roll those eyes.. you with your "rhetorical" question.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

111. Thank you very much. And Snyder is an excellent, excellent read.

Very knowledgeable in both past history and current events. I started reading Bloodlands yesterday, actually.

I guess the thing that upsets me most about people who so forcefully push the "western sponsored coup" theory is that there's a total ignorance and disregard for the Ukrainian people in all of it. It assumes they are too stupid to know what was going in their own country or have any input or say into it; that what happened was so big that it couldn't have been the Ukrainian people speaking out, that no, it was just the US up to its old tricks. And yet Maidan was real, and it was huge--hundreds of thousands of people physically there, with millions more supporting them. And Yanukoyvch left the country without a gun to his head, or being shot, or being arrested. It was regime change for sure, a revolution perhaps, but certainly no coup.

[Cha]

122. You're most Welcome, Tommy. Tim Snyder is brilliant.

The ignorance willful and otherwise is disgusting.. and I imagine for someone like you who still has family there very upsetting and frustrating.

Thank you again for your perspective, Tommy.

[stevenleser]

115. 114 Replies (before mine) and nothing in the same universe as proof offered.

Your point is made. There is no reason by way of anything resembling legitimate proof to call this a western sponsored coup.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

116. Lots of red herrings and non-sequiturs, though. nt

[William769]

126. kick & recommended.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

137. ***Something just floored me about the timeline of events that I didn't realize before.***

According to the surveillance footage, Yanukovych first started packing up his stuff at his Kyiv presidential mansion on February 19th.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/12/what-did-yanukovych-take-with-him-as-he-fled-his-mansion-paintings-guns-and-a-small-dog-according-to-new-video/

The notorious sniper incident on the Maidan where dozens were shot and killed happened on February 20th.

On February 21st, the initial agreement was reached where Yanukovych would stay in power but elections would be scheduled for later in the year.

On the evening of February 21st through the early morning February 22nd, packing was finished at the Yankukovych mansion and his party is seen flying away in his helicopters.

(The following day there were reports he was in Donetsk near the Russian border trying to fly into Russia but was unable to do so. The reports are that he eventually was able to reach the Russian naval base in Crimea and make it to the Russian mainland from there.)

So apparently, even before the initial deal was struck and just before the very worst violence hit Maidan, Yanukovych was already planning to flee. This pretty much throws cold water on the argument that the failure to maintain the initial deal precipitated a "coup", when apparently it appears Yanukovych had no intention of even abiding by that initial deal.